# Controlling rough play with new V puppy and 18 month Aussie Shepherd



## alfie's mum (Jun 18, 2020)

We have a 15 week old V named Alfie and live in a house with my partner's brother, his girlfriend and their 18 month old Australian Shepherd called Arlo. From what I can tell, they definitely get along and it hasn't passed the point where I'm uncomfortable with them being around each other, however from day one after an hour or two Alfie has definitely been the dominant one when it comes to their play. He always gave little nips and grabbed a hold of Arlo's long hair when they chased each other around, however as he has gotten older and much bigger, those nips are turning in to full on bites where he latches on to Arlo's mouth or face and doesn't let go. There have been times where I can't get him off either, or if I try to he turns the biting on to me. In the last week, Alfie has also begun to show some more aggressive behaviour when we try to pick him up where he snarls and bites (hard!), either when he is playing too rough or when he is sleeping. I think sometimes he gets way overstimulated living in a house with lots of people, lots of visitors, and another dog. Everyone said the older dog will put him in his place, but honestly I can't ever see this happening. Arlo is extremely placid and submissive, I sometimes wish he would.

SO basically besides completely separating them, which we often have to do, does anyone have any recommendations on how to control the biting and encourage them to play in a less aggressive way? Also how to remove Alfie when he is in full biting psycho mode without getting bitten?

I should also mention that besides all this we are obsessed and in love with Alfie who is an amazing little guy, super smart, and extremely well behaved when on his own.


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Dogs will put up with a lot from a very young puppy. Somewhere around the 4-5 month old age, they tolerate less from them. Arlo might be a dog that will not put him in his place. Until he's bullied to far, and attacks him. At that point, you can't blame Arlo.

What kind of training are you doing With him, when he's away from Arlo?


----------



## alfie's mum (Jun 18, 2020)

texasred said:


> Dogs will put up with a lot from a very young puppy. Somewhere around the 4-5 month old age, they tolerate less from them. Arlo might be a dog that will not put him in his place. Until he's bullied to far, and attacks him. At that point, you can't blame Arlo.
> 
> What kind of training are you doing With him, when he's away from Arlo?


We have taught him the basics (sit, down, stay) which he picked up super quick. Have practiced lots of fetch and recall with him at the dog beach which he is pretty good at but sometimes gets distracted. Puppy schools were all closed due to Covid but are now starting back so we are excited to be starting that this weekend. We also have organised a private session in our home next week that will hopefully help with the two dogs.


----------



## 1stVizsla (Jun 22, 2016)

Consider a muzzle on the dog you wish to control the biting (which dog it is may change over time). The dog will detest the muzzle and gradually cease the behavior that is causing you to put it in him once he figures out what that behavior is. I used key words like “Gentle” to calm down the biter before administering the muzzle. Your (likely teething) Vizsla can hardly be held accountable for the youthful biting as he’s so impulsive and rambunctious so I’d be lenient with him.

My GSD and V were about the same age difference. I needed to be extremely protective of the MUCH more fragile V. The final straw was when my GSD took to regularly grabbing her hind legs, making me fearful about dislocating a thigh. I was doing A LOT of reading on the internet about training two young dogs at that point; it did help and the muzzle strategy arose from those sources.

You also have 2 high energy breeds; also they are young like mine were when I brought the V home. You will need to watch them closely, never leaving the V alone with the stronger Aussie Shepard in my opinion. It took me 6 months of daily, continuous training to get rid of the inappropriate roughhousing. And yes, a V can get hurt quite bad, very quickly (needing stitches etc) from a “play” bite. Be careful. Use muzzles as deterrents whenever needed, and watch them like a hawk until they get trained and settle down a bit. 

Once the V is mature I doubt he’d be the natural Alpha, but I’ve seen my dogs change their roles depending on whether my husband or I are home with them. You should expect that also with the other dog’s owner. His dog may act completely different around your dog when his owner is present, thus you will likely have a more complex dynamic than I dealt with in socializing mine. Good luck!!


----------



## alfie's mum (Jun 18, 2020)

1stVizsla said:


> Consider a muzzle on the dog you wish to control the biting (which dog it is may change over time). The dog will detest the muzzle and gradually cease the behavior that is causing you to put it in him once he figures out what that behavior is. I used key words like “Gentle” to calm down the biter before administering the muzzle. Your (likely teething) Vizsla can hardly be held accountable for the youthful biting as he’s so impulsive and rambunctious so I’d be lenient with him.
> 
> My GSD and V were about the same age difference. I needed to be extremely protective of the MUCH more fragile V. The final straw was when my GSD took to regularly grabbing her hind legs, making me fearful about dislocating a thigh. I was doing A LOT of reading on the internet about training two young dogs at that point; it did help and the muzzle strategy arose from those sources.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply. Definitely a lot to consider here and something we massively underestimated was the extra challenge of another dog that is not ours (any the many, many opinions of others in the house on what is the right was to raise our pup...).

A muzzle is not something I'd be super keen to use as from what I've read, it doesn't actually correct the behaviour only stops the behaviour while wearing it. If it continues to get worse though I guess I'd have to consider all options.

It's not the nipping and play biting that I'm concerned about, it's when he gets too worked up and the biting turns in to growling, snarling, and latching on. This doesn't seem like teething to me, it seems like more of a dominance thing where he is trying to take the top spot in the house. Since posting, the snarling/biting/aggression towards us has gotten worse and we are pretty concerned. He was always handled a lot when we first got him, carried around, cuddled, but all of a sudden one day he just snapped when we tried to move him from the couch to his bed at night. It has gotten progressively worse since then, now snarling and snapping when handled at completely random times. Other times loves to be cuddled and handled. We have spent hours reading up online and are so confused what to do. Some say you should pin them down to assert your dominance, others say NEVER do this and simply say NO and walk away. It is making me so uncomfortable not being able to predict his behaviour. He is the most friendly dog and runs up to anyone and everyone for a pat, and plays well with every dog he encounters at the dog beach. 

I am hoping that this is just a phase of him trying to find his place in the house but really unsure of how to deal with it...


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I don't think pinning them down really helps the situation, as in some cases it escalates it. Neither does just walking away. It's basically giving them the authority, to correct you when they feel like it.
With my pups they would have on a short leash, be pulled off the sofa, while I growled my meanest growl at them. If they didn't have a leash on, I would throw a blanket over them. Growl, and put them directly in the yard alone for the next 30 minutes.

I want them to be able to clearly understand the message, and that I am in control. I want to be fair, but firm.

Keep working on commands with him. And look for a good balanced trainer in your area.


----------



## alfie's mum (Jun 18, 2020)

texasred said:


> I don't think pinning them down really helps the situation, as in some cases it escalates it. Neither does just walking away. It's basically giving them the authority, to correct you when they feel like it.
> With my pups they would have on a short leash, be pulled off the sofa, while I growled my meanest growl at them. If they didn't have a leash on, I would throw a blanket over them. Growl, and put them directly in the yard alone for the next 30 minutes.
> 
> I want them to be able to clearly understand the message, and that I am in control. I want to be fair, but firm.
> ...


Thanks great advice will try this way. Since last week the snarling has calmed down quite a bit, we have been a bit stricter with him as far as where he's allowed to go and I think the boundaries are helping a lot.


----------



## 1stVizsla (Jun 22, 2016)

It sounds now like your pup is experiencing frustration, maybe even confusion with his place in the house (pack). I can’t comment on that, only on the biting,of,other dogs where the dual-dog dynamic in the same house can be a difficult training issue. And you are correct...it is all about dominance and place in the pack.

Regarding the muzzle - they are smarter than you think. As long as you link the undesirable behavior to the appearance of the muzzle (I used a key word “GENTLE” in a firm, emphatic tone) they will make the connection and learn. It got to the point that when my GSD saw the muzzle and I said “Gentle” with the puppy I no longer needed to put it on him! The muzzle,was,only on for brief periods (20-40 min) when I knew the GSD would ,initiate,the rough mouth play. Then it would,come,off until he transgressed again.

But it took time because you are trying to overcome strong doggy impulses and socialization drives. It was by far the hardest thing I’ve done byway of training but the German Shepard learned, essentially reversing his dominance role when I was around. He hasn't needed the muzzle prop for several years... simply the word “Gentle” in command tone now suffices. Because his unwanted behaviors were via his mouth (grabbing hind legs, latching on, even putting his mouth completely around her back when she was small), the muzzle let him know his mouth would be controlled by ME if he was not “Gentle”.

P.S. I read all that stuff about “pinning” them also. It’s weird/silly in my opinion. Your dog is perfectly capable of seeing you as the Alpha without all that. Voice commands have always been more than sufficient for me. Have you ever seen the Dog Whisperer (Cesar) rolling on the ground and pinning his dogs (not that Cesar is that special...but he gets the job done). Also, the muzzle was useful outside when my GSD really went after her and I couldn’t get between them in time. It worked...after 2-3 months I never needed it again; the word “Gentle” made him act like a gentleman.

Boundaries are important for dogs, now if my husband says “gentle” firmly it has similar effect. The muzzle proved to be a strong visual (and functional) deterrent until the GSD learned not to take advantage of the much weaker Vizsla. Good luck!!


----------



## Sunshinesol (Jul 3, 2020)

Be a calm, cool, confident leader in your household.

My vet told me once to pin my dog down, as he did so to “assert his dominance .” That was the last time I went to that dude.. most vets don’t know crap about dog behavior!

yes the latching on is a problem, if they are constantly on their hind legs, or one dog is clearly dominating the play than it’s a problem. 

Dogs really get boundaries. Our dog is not allowed on the couch, the bed, the kitchen, other bedrooms, the shoe rack area. We stop at every threshold/doorway (including the crack between the lawn and the driveway). and pause so she checks in with me. I want her in tune with me. When you let them get on the couch whenever they want, they are confused and frustrated when you come and try to take them off. If a dog is allowed to do as they please from puppy- problems will arise

she’s an Aussie mix, but def the pushy one at my house when we first got her. We are getting our V at the end of this year so we want our rules well established with our first dog.

we have 3 marker words. 
yes-some food or treato coming your way
Break- “fee dog”/sniff as you please 
Get it- go get a reward we don’t have in our hands 

it’s important a dog knows when he/she is on/off. Aka being in tune with you, checking with you, making eye contact vs sniffing,running, anything they want

rules and boundaries from puppyhood makes for a great well behaved dog. Remember you are raising a dog not a puppy!

If you are unsure about a behavior, ask yourself if you’d mind the dog doing it when it’s 2 years old.
Crate train, and overnight in crate until 1 year old+

some people have suggested some punishments. I ask what’s the difference between an action that causes a behavior to stop vs not? That is a correction vs punishment. Your dog does not understand why it’s in the yard, by itself after you let it wind up and get crazy with the other dog. That has happened days ago in the dogs mind.. a correction is quick, sharp, and never too harsh.

Vs can be “soft” dogs (for lack of a better term) but it seems your V was getting rather pushing towards the end. These kinds of dogs can take harder corrections.

an example.... my partners sister is over and brought her 2 year old dog. We did the walk, they got to meet, played, finished the walk,went inside. My pup was being a brat, staring and barking so the few times she did this I gave her a solid leash pop. (We let the leash drag a lot of the time). After a few times she realized that’s all she was getting from that behavior so she laid down at one of her spots. I then pulled out a small rope toy I made and played some in place tug with her and let her have it to chew on. Good things happen when you are calm around the

go for structured walks with each dog and eventually together, as a pack. Loose leash no pulling. Many videos on that.

limit their interaction together, A LOT. Before you know it your V considers that dog his best friend and your left as the odd one out always ruining the fun. You want to be your dogs best friend.


----------



## freealfin (Jun 8, 2017)

alfie's mum said:


> We have a 15 week old V named Alfie and live in a house with my partner's brother, his girlfriend and their 18 month old Australian Shepherd called Arlo. From what I can tell, they definitely get along and it hasn't passed the point where I'm uncomfortable with them being around each other, however from day one after an hour or two Alfie has definitely been the dominant one when it comes to their play. He always gave little nips and grabbed a hold of Arlo's long hair when they chased each other around, however as he has gotten older and much bigger, those nips are turning in to full on bites where he latches on to Arlo's mouth or face and doesn't let go. There have been times where I can't get him off either, or if I try to he turns the biting on to me. In the last week, Alfie has also begun to show some more aggressive behaviour when we try to pick him up where he snarls and bites (hard!), either when he is playing too rough or when he is sleeping. I think sometimes he gets way overstimulated living in a house with lots of people, lots of visitors, and another dog. Everyone said the older dog will put him in his place, but honestly I can't ever see this happening. Arlo is extremely placid and submissive, I sometimes wish he would.
> 
> SO basically besides completely separating them, which we often have to do, does anyone have any recommendations on how to control the biting and encourage them to play in a less aggressive way? Also how to remove Alfie when he is in full biting psycho mode without getting bitten?
> 
> I should also mention that besides all this we are obsessed and in love with Alfie who is an amazing little guy, super smart, and extremely well behaved when on his own.


You have gotten some good advise here and I will not elaborate in the details but talk about only being the ALPHA member. I keep on reading over and over again about problems that linger on for weeks (or months) on end. I have had many V puppies that challenged me to come up with solutions to their behavior. In addition, my last two have been re-homed young adults with tons of problems. With them, there hasn't been a serious problem that I did not 90% correct in less than two weeks. The secret, I believe, is me establishing early on (within hours, even in the trip back home) who's the BOSS. I do this by which ever method that works. Vizslas ARE sensitive dogs (but not as much as most people believe) and I use that to my advantage when possible. But, when not, I'll use force....and I mean FORCE! The alternative is not pretty.for the owner or the V. My current two V's (and I) have had now three years of a very enjoyable life and we are looking to many more which is a GREAT RETURN ON A FEW UNPLEASANT TIMES.


----------



## freealfin (Jun 8, 2017)

Sunshinesol said:


> Be a calm, cool, confident leader in your household.
> 
> My vet told me once to pin my dog down, as he did so to “assert his dominance .” That was the last time I went to that dude.. most vets don’t know crap about dog behavior!
> 
> ...


WOW!!!!! not allowed in the kitchen, bed, couch, bedrooms, shoe rack.....crated....structured walks.....dragging a leash.....I wouldn't like to be a dog in YOUR household..


----------



## Sunshinesol (Jul 3, 2020)

freealfin said:


> WOW!!!!! not allowed in the kitchen, bed, couch, bedrooms, shoe rack.....crated....structured walks.....dragging a leash.....I wouldn't like to be a dog in YOUR household..


Say what you will, but my dogs have always been well behaved, solid recall, leave it, and drop if it was a juicy steak. We play and play with toys, get lots of raw meaty bones, liver, carna4 kibble. Best of all we spend 6+ hours in the woods 5 days a week where we explore, chase, and chew what we please. 

The reason we have so much structure in the house is so my dogs see that everything comes through me. Whats the point of having a dog if it cant be kept off leash reliably? A dog should be able to run, chase, and chew as it pleases, WHEN it can handle that freedom.

We only crate to a year old at night, after that, they are much less likely to develop any habits like chewing on your stairs or getting into the trash! At 2 years they are adults and NO LONGER REQUIRE A CRATE AT ALL. We raise dogs not puppies. They can be trusted alone in the house for the entire day if need be. Why? Because they never even thought about getting into something they shouldn't, its not even a thing to them. 

Why is your dog allowed in the kitchen? To beg? To scavenge for crumbs?
When i got my first puppy and i let it in the kitchen you know what it did? It PEED!

Dogs are allowed in OUR bedroom, they have no reason to go into guest rooms, especially when we have guests. That is not their space.

The shoe rack is an obvious one..

Couch only when invited, that is probably the most common spot for human-dog conflict over the use of space. 

That being said, I KNOW you also have well behaved dogs. Many ways to accomplish this. My point, is that dogs really get the whole space thing. If you take charge of the space, there is no question who's in charge. 

The leash makes it easier when a pup is making some sort of "challenge" or getting into something it shouldn't- it makes for an easy, swift correct. I dont feel comfortable kicking, shoving, or putting my hands on them in adverse ways. They get the leash and theres much less risk of actually hurting your pup. You mentioned "FORCE," but i am not sure what you mean? What do you use as a correction?

Hope to learn some stuff from you, I understand you have a lot of experience with V's! I know I'm being strict, but I mean well!


----------



## freealfin (Jun 8, 2017)

Sunshinesol said:


> Say what you will, but my dogs have always been well behaved, solid recall, leave it, and drop if it was a juicy steak. We play and play with toys, get lots of raw meaty bones, liver, carna4 kibble. Best of all we spend 6+ hours in the woods 5 days a week where we explore, chase, and chew what we please.
> 
> The reason we have so much structure in the house is so my dogs see that everything comes through me. Whats the point of having a dog if it cant be kept off leash reliably? A dog should be able to run, chase, and chew as it pleases, WHEN it can handle that freedom.
> 
> ...


If what you do results in benefits for all involved over many years and your V's are happy 95% of the time they spend on this heart...... I'm with you because they are much better of than most Vs.. I still wouldn't want to be a pup in your house because, being a pup, I wouldn't understand the present limitations for a better future. In my case I achieve all of it without the restrictions. My V's, from Puppy-hood to grave, had (and have) always the run of the house and never have seen the inside of a crate and they sped weeks without seeing the leash.. Sure I pay, during a few months, some very bearable penalties for it but, on the long run it has always been an excellent trade. I'm sure you love your Vs. almost as much as I do (I don't think anyone has spent 15 days behind the wheel and driven 6000 miles to rescue two dogs at the age of 83 or stolen a chained V from a junkyard or killed , with a knife, a dog that was killing their V pup) and you have my respect. Today, at almost 86 I still drive my V's to open fields around my City just before sun-up and after sun-down (85F vs 110F) for them to run 10 to 20 miles a day...I just walk 2 or 3.... You're curious about my definition of force.......I never hurt my V's but I learned, from watching them play, that they are a lot tougher than we give them credit for. So I use my size and strength to show dominance at a very early age....... Like clamping their mouth or hugging them so they can't move....etc....but never for any length of time or to the point of getting a yelp....As far you learning from me...... I don't think that's going to happen because we are very different...... but true V lovers........


----------



## Sunshinesol (Jul 3, 2020)

freealfin said:


> If what you do results in benefits for all involved over many years and your V's are happy 95% of the time they spend on this heart...... I'm with you because they are much better of than most Vs.. I still wouldn't want to be a pup in your house because, being a pup, I wouldn't understand the present limitations for a better future. In my case I achieve all of it without the restrictions. My V's, from Puppy-hood to grave, had (and have) always the run of the house and never have seen the inside of a crate and they sped weeks without seeing the leash.. Sure I pay, during a few months, some very bearable penalties for it but, on the long run it has always been an excellent trade. I'm sure you love your Vs. almost as much as I do (I don't think anyone has spent 15 days behind the wheel and driven 6000 miles to rescue two dogs at the age of 83 or stolen a chained V from a junkyard or killed , with a knife, a dog that was killing their V pup) and you have my respect. Today, at almost 86 I still drive my V's to open fields around my City just before sun-up and after sun-down (85F vs 110F) for them to run 10 to 20 miles a day...I just walk 2 or 3.... You're curious about my definition of force.......I never hurt my V's but I learned, from watching them play, that they are a lot tougher than we give them credit for. So I use my size and strength to show dominance at a very early age....... Like clamping their mouth or hugging them so they can't move....etc....but never for any length of time or to the point of getting a yelp....As far you learning from me...... I don't think that's going to happen because we are very different...... but true V lovers........


Much respect, I’m not too far along my journey and though I’ve had dogs a little while my first V is due at the end of this year. So I will add my experience is pretty general as far as breeds, and hardly compares to your lifetime of V experience! 

Heck yeah, V’s are the best dog wrestlers! not afraid to play hard with a much bigger dog!

Yes I agree as long as they understand who’s in charge without too much conflict it’ll all work out in the end. A dog unsure of its place is not a confident or happy dog in my opinion! I am only 25 but I hope to be doing the same with many V’s to come  You are a true hero to this breed sir! Hope you keep doing what your doing for many years to come! My current dog is an Aussie mix from a rescue, this pup has forced me to grow and learn and learn lots! Much respect to those who take on dogs others have given up on


----------



## freealfin (Jun 8, 2017)

Sunshinesol said:


> Much respect, I’m not too far along my journey and though I’ve had dogs a little while my first V is due at the end of this year. So I will add my experience is pretty general as far as breeds, and hardly compares to your lifetime of V experience!
> 
> Heck yeah, V’s are the best dog wrestlers! not afraid to play hard with a much bigger dog!
> 
> Yes I agree as long as they understand who’s in charge without too much conflict it’ll all work out in the end. A dog unsure of its place is not a confident or happy dog in my opinion! I am only 25 but I hope to be doing the same with many V’s to come  You are a true hero to this breed sir! Hope you keep doing what your doing for many years to come! My current dog is an Aussie mix from a rescue, this pup has forced me to grow and learn and learn lots! Much respect to those who take on dogs others have given up on


Wow!!!!!!!!!!!........cheewitz....................I just love them dearly.........thats all.......


----------



## freealfin (Jun 8, 2017)

Sunshinesol said:


> Much respect, I’m not too far along my journey and though I’ve had dogs a little while my first V is due at the end of this year. So I will add my experience is pretty general as far as breeds, and hardly compares to your lifetime of V experience!
> 
> Heck yeah, V’s are the best dog wrestlers! not afraid to play hard with a much bigger dog!
> 
> Yes I agree as long as they understand who’s in charge without too much conflict it’ll all work out in the end. A dog unsure of its place is not a confident or happy dog in my opinion! I am only 25 but I hope to be doing the same with many V’s to come  You are a true hero to this breed sir! Hope you keep doing what your doing for many years to come! My current dog is an Aussie mix from a rescue, this pup has forced me to grow and learn and learn lots! Much respect to those who take on dogs others have given up on


Monitor closely the interaction between your Aussie+ and your new V pup. Herding dogs have a natural tendency to nib at rear legs and, sometimes, hard. Being a mix does not preclude that some of the natural instincts of either breed will carry on. Over the span of several V's I had the occasion to come in contact with a few herding dogs and, in two occasions I had to terminate their association. To your Aussie's + credit, these two were Border Collies. Some of he Aussies too had the tendency but they were much more gentle...never made blood and my V's learned to deal with it.......nib right back!...


----------



## Sunshinesol (Jul 3, 2020)

freealfin said:


> Monitor closely the interaction between your Aussie+ and your new V pup. Herding dogs have a natural tendency to nib at rear legs and, sometimes, hard. Being a mix does not preclude that some of the natural instincts of either breed will carry on. Over the span of several V's I had the occasion to come in contact with a few herding dogs and, in two occasions I had to terminate their association. To your Aussie's + credit, these two were Border Collies. Some of he Aussies too had the tendency but they were much more gentle...never made blood and my V's learned to deal with it.......nib right back!...


Yeah right now I’m thinking she’s got mini-aussie in her cause her size hasn’t increased too much and her other breeds are pit-lab, and some single percent dal and pug.

Nonetheless she’s always been a mouthy pup! Since day one of you let her get worked up she’s bound to puta body part in her mouth. She’s learned not too bite hard on humans fortunately!

she weighed in at 30 pounds at the vet last month but she looks a bit bigger now at 6 months I think. She was definitely nipping and taking nips from my sister in law’s cattle dog mix the other day, unfortunately other dog was getting a bit pushy so we broke it up.

I’ll be getting a male V so I’m assuming he’ll be bigger eventually. His parents are the sweetest V’s and have a great loving home, so It’s really up to me not to mess it up lol

nonetheless, it’s up to us to be the regulators of dog conflict  I’ll make sure nobody gets hurt!


----------



## freealfin (Jun 8, 2017)

Sunshinesol said:


> Yeah right now I’m thinking she’s got mini-aussie in her cause her size hasn’t increased too much and her other breeds are pit-lab, and some single percent dal and pug.
> 
> Nonetheless she’s always been a mouthy pup! Since day one of you let her get worked up she’s bound to puta body part in her mouth. She’s learned not too bite hard on humans fortunately!
> 
> ...


Being "bigger eventually" won't cut it. You need to stop any behavior that causes you V pup to be traumatized. He could end up being afraid of his shadow all of his life and that's no life at all.


----------



## Sunshinesol (Jul 3, 2020)

Right right right, I promise I won’t let Luna (the Aussie+) dominate Sol (V) or vice versa! We’ll both be supervising any interaction between the dogs especially the first few months! My partner takes Luna to work and I will be taking Sol (we are both foresters). So they’ll be apart most of the time.


----------



## freealfin (Jun 8, 2017)

Sunshinesol said:


> Right right right, I promise I won’t let Luna (the Aussie+) dominate Sol (V) or vice versa! We’ll both be supervising any interaction between the dogs especially the first few months! My partner takes Luna to work and I will be taking Sol (we are both foresters). So they’ll be apart most of the time.


Foresters........that's a job I wish I was young enough to pursuit....the new puppy, I'm sure, is in his way to a GREAT life...................good luck to ALL of you....


----------



## InTheNet (Jun 1, 2016)

When our 2 V"s played you would think they were trying to kill each other. Barking /growling. But no blood and no screams of pain! As long as you are not hearing any pain noises, I would not be overly concerned personally. Also their tails were Always wagging while this "fighting " was going on.


----------

