# Lines and differences



## Israrules

Can you tell me what are the most important blood lines of Vizsla, which lines combines both working and beauty? For what I've read there are some division in working and show lines -like virtually every working breed-, however IMO there are less marked differences since I have seen a lot of working champions with show titles and viceversa, but can you tell me in your opinion what are the best and more complete breeders or bloodlines? and the differences between american and Hungarian lines? I have heard and seen that Hungarian V's are larger, less angled and the American I've seen have a higher implanted tail, straight group and more protrusive chest.

Here in Mexico are mainly European lines from Sugar, Vadaszfai, Katavizs, Sagi solymaz, Muela de Cortes and some american like Renaissance and Barben.

Greetings


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## R E McCraith

Let Me that finds a V - that HUNTS !!!!!!!!!!!! past that POINT - they R sport dogs - giVe me a MUTT that HUNTS - I'm HAPPY !!!!!!!!!!


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## redbirddog

http://www.bracoslaserrota.es/actualidad.html

I do really like this Spanish line but to find field lines go to field trials and talk to the owners and handlers and see the dogs yourself.

Even in the best line you will get great to average pups. Best if you learn how to evaluate the pups or get them evaluated for you before purchasing your chances of getting the right dog for you increase quite a lot. 

There are good books on the subject. One I like is:

_"Winning Ways: Training Your Pointing Breed Dog for Hunting and Competition"_
by Jack J. Sharkey


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## texasred

What's the best bloodline, crosses of bloodlines, and breeders depends so much on your expectations of the pup. If you name a couple, your bound to leave someone out, and have differences of opinion.

What I want in a vizlsa can be different than what the next person would consider the perfect vizsla. I personally look at dogs (bloodlines) that have a known history to replicate themselves. It does not mean every pup will be able to achieve the goals met by its parentage, but it does up your odds.

Knowing what you want/need in a dog is half the battle.
The other half is having the knowledge, or a mentor to help you match it with a pup.


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## Israrules

Yes picking the right puppy is difficult, fortunatly I have a breeder with knowledge and We have already chosen a puppy, 100% mexican of mexican parents, hungarian grandparents and all of them 100% falconers. 

The question of this topic was only to have a little more knowledge and varied opinions from people who have worked and/or shown V's about the different types or lines that exist.... Just for general culture ;D


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## einspänner

My limited knowledge really only includes wirehair lines, but I've heard good things about Hubertus, based in Australia. By necessity they've imported bloodlines from many countries, including a lot from the US which surprised me because they have a more European look to them. 

If I ever do want a smooth V I honestly wouldn't know where to go, so I'll definitely be watching this thread. One thing I like to do is flip through the NAVHDA test results in their monthly magazine and see what HVs and HWVs names show up.


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## texasred

This is link to a website if you like looking up bloodlines.
http://www.vizsladatabase.com/index.php
They also have a facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/groups/vizsladatabase/

NAVHDA also has a pedigree search, and you can see how the dog scored on the test. 
http://www.navhda.us/Pedigree.aspx


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## A.S

I have been choosing the lines of my puppy for almost a year. Maybe I went a bit extreme because choosing a puppy is always a guessing game.  Good puppies CAN grow into "nothing special" dogs and there is even a chance that the smallest of the litter grows into a big and nice dog. 
Regarding beauty I would advise you to choose strictly by what you like. You are correct about the tails... "true" Hungarian vizslas never had tails pointing upwards like a beagle for example... but overseas you can find many "champion" dogs that have tails like that. Then there is pointy snouts, different colour etc... And obviously there are judges that accept (i guess even like) those attributes and then you have those who most definitely do not... So it varies much depending on where you are stated... 
And about the hunting lines, all you gotta do really is just ask if the parents, grandparents were hunters. After that you have to do your own training too... But that is my opinion. I see vizsla more as a "pleaser of the master" than a true hunter. It will hunt whatever but only if you want it to 
So basically what I am trying to say is - if you like the parents, how they work, how they look, go for it. But do not forget, a breeder himself is important too! 
Good luck


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## texasred

> And about the hunting lines, all you gotta do really is just ask if the parents, grandparents were hunters. After that you have to do your own training too... But that is my opinion. I see vizsla more as a "pleaser of the master" than a true hunter. It will hunt whatever but only if you want it to


While its true that there is a wide range of prey drive in the breed, some are definitely true hunters, and its on their mind anytime they are outdoors. The prey drive can range from over the top, to barely there, depending on the bloodline, and the individual pup.

I myself do not just want to go by a owners word on if a pups parentage hunted. I would want to see that dog hunt, if it held no hunt titles.
I have purchased a pup from a titled dog, that was bred to a untitled dog. But I spent a weekend hunting over the dog. I watched its intensity in the field, gait, style on point, and its range. I also paid close attention on how it interacted with the other dogs, and new people.


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## A.S

TexasRed said:


> I myself do not just want to go by a owners word on if a pups parentage hunted. I would want to see that dog hunt, if it held no hunt titles.


I thought all vizslas that one wants to breed have to have hunting exams. :-\
But yes, I agree. By "asking about the parents/grandparents" I meant seeing their exams and results. They usually always advertise that anyway, not all have the possibility to go see the dogs so knowing what place/points they scored there is good.


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## harrigab

A.S said:


> TexasRed said:
> 
> 
> 
> I myself do not just want to go by a owners word on if a pups parentage hunted. I would want to see that dog hunt, if it held no hunt titles.
> 
> 
> 
> _*I thought all vizslas that one wants to breed have to have hunting exams. :-\*_
> But yes, I agree. By "asking about the parents/grandparents" I meant seeing their exams and results. They usually always advertise that anyway, not all have the possibility to go see the dogs so knowing what place/points they scored there is good.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that's the case in Hungary, although lately I've been known to get it wrong


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## R E McCraith

it took a year 2 find PIKE - contact pointer clubs in your area (that's like 4 states) ask how many V's are in the club - how many V's run in there hunt tests & field trials - go 2 the events - odds R you will meet hobby breeders that never advertise - trainers & owners that you can only find @ these events - ask ?'s - no video will ever show what a V can do in the field till you watch it LIVE !!!!!! Titles cost a LOT of money !!!!!!!


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## A.S

harrigab said:


> I'm pretty sure that's the case in Hungary, although lately I've been known to get it wrong


Ah... that explains why I thought so  Been mainly focused on Hungary...


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## Israrules

TexasRed said:


> This is link to a website if you like looking up bloodlines.
> http://www.vizsladatabase.com/index.php
> They also have a facebook page
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/vizsladatabase/
> 
> NAVHDA also has a pedigree search, and you can see how the dog scored on the test.
> http://www.navhda.us/Pedigree.aspx


thank you for the likns, really useful


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## harrigab

TexasRed said:


> This is link to a website if you like looking up bloodlines.
> http://www.vizsladatabase.com/index.php
> They also have a facebook page
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/vizsladatabase/
> 
> NAVHDA also has a pedigree search, and you can see how the dog scored on the test.
> http://www.navhda.us/Pedigree.aspx


who updates the database TR? Elvis's parents and lineage are on it, but Elvis isn't yet.


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## texasred

That's a good question, and by looking at the bottom of the webpage it looks like it was created by Sylvia Tucker. There is also a page to create a account, and one to submit a pedigree under the Info/Contact button. 
I honestly have no idea how quickly its updated once a pedigree is submitted.


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## Israrules

A.S said:


> TexasRed said:
> 
> 
> 
> I myself do not just want to go by a owners word on if a pups parentage hunted. I would want to see that dog hunt, if it held no hunt titles.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought all vizslas that one wants to breed have to have hunting exams. :-\
> But yes, I agree. By "asking about the parents/grandparents" I meant seeing their exams and results. They usually always advertise that anyway, not all have the possibility to go see the dogs so knowing what place/points they scored there is good.
Click to expand...

There are countries -like mine- that doesn't have official working tests for hunting breeds, only obedience, agility and IPO (Schutzhund). There are some hunting tests organized by hunting associations, not recognized by the national kennel club (FCM), so the only way to pick a V for hunting or other work is knowing the parents of the puppy and evaluating the puppy.


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## Israrules

harrigab said:


> TexasRed said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is link to a website if you like looking up bloodlines.
> http://www.vizsladatabase.com/index.php
> They also have a facebook page
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/vizsladatabase/
> 
> NAVHDA also has a pedigree search, and you can see how the dog scored on the test.
> http://www.navhda.us/Pedigree.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> who updates the database TR? Elvis's parents and lineage are on it, but Elvis isn't yet.
Click to expand...

For what I've read in this database and know of other databases, the breeder register his litters in the website or one must register our own dog with lineage


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## R E McCraith

Yes - some breeders register the litter - some give you the paper work & leave it up to the new owner - if you want 2 compete in most comps - the pup must be registered !!!!!!!


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## Spy Car

Remember there are two separate things one needs to do (if a breeder hasn't).

1) The V needs to be registered with a national registry (such as the AKC here in the USA).

2) The pedigree needs to be sent to the Vizsla Database so you can use that service most fully. The information can be added online.

I recently added by V to the database. I'd spent a lot of time looking through the pedigrees of sire and dam. I'm glad to have my V entered.

The database is a great resource. I'm grateful to those who have put in the time and effort to create it.

Bill


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## Spy Car

harrigab said:


> TexasRed said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is link to a website if you like looking up bloodlines.
> http://www.vizsladatabase.com/index.php
> They also have a facebook page
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/vizsladatabase/
> 
> NAVHDA also has a pedigree search, and you can see how the dog scored on the test.
> http://www.navhda.us/Pedigree.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> who updates the database TR? Elvis's parents and lineage are on it, but Elvis isn't yet.
Click to expand...

If you go to the Vizsla Database website you will see there is an option to add a new dog online. It helps to have two windows open (to cut and paste ancestors information into the new entry). Then submit. It took about a week to appear for us.

Bill


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## R E McCraith

on the Vizsla database - fun 2 look at the COI - also on pedegree - the # of pups sired & delivered - life span OFA - it all helps when finding a breeder


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## harrigab

R said:


> on the Vizsla database - fun 2 look at the COI - also on pedegree - the # of pups sired & delivered - life span OFA - it all helps when finding a breeder


I've been playing about with the COI calculator on the Kennel Club homepage, it's a good tool 
what's breed average COI for a smooth V?, wirehaired average here in UK is 5.8%, Elvis's COI is 6.2%


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## Spy Car

harrigab said:


> R said:
> 
> 
> 
> on the Vizsla database - fun 2 look at the COI - also on pedegree - the # of pups sired & delivered - life span OFA - it all helps when finding a breeder
> 
> 
> 
> I've been playing about with the COI calculator on the Kennel Club homepage, it's a good tool
> what's breed average COI for a smooth V?, wirehaired average here in UK is 5.8%, Elvis's COI is 6.2%
Click to expand...

I don't know what's average, but Chester is 6.782% for 8 generations.

Bill


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## harrigab

I did a COI on some of Ruby's breeders dogs,,,,jeez, I'm surprised some of them aren't playing banjoes


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## texasred

Line breeding just because the sires location is close by (or in same kennel) does not better a breed.
Line breeding with a purpose in mind has created some excellent bloodlines, and exceptional dogs. 
It takes a person with a lot more knowledge than me to do it right.
I would probably create banjo players, but some are able to create symphonies.


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## R E McCraith

PIKE 23% COI did I say NO !! out of the best of the best - still a crap shoot !!!!!! I met with the breeder - met the dam - met the litter - the last 3 made my decision - as the KY derby is near - I look @ Strom CAT - never proven on the track - but proven as a great breeder !!!! go with your HEART !!!!!!! - meet greet & RESEARCH !!!!!!!!


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## Spy Car

The truth is if you follow the lines back to the origin point of record keeping, it is easy to see what a tiny handful of dogs served as foundation stock for the whole breed.

The same names (like Rupp) appear again and again. 

It is a very small gene pool.

Bill


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## Israrules

The thing is that if you are going for a dog with a high COI you need to know the health of the parents, not only see them. The higher the COI the more related are the ancestor of the dog and more possibilities of inherit 'bad' characteristics (genetic illnesses for example). Of course there is a higher chance to inherit good desirable traits. The point is that is better to avoid high COI's because we can get the opposite of what we looking for.


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## R E McCraith

Is - did you miss the point !!!! did not look 4 a high COI - 10 gens - the health - length of life - proven in the field - just had a high COI - this is like talking about what 2 feed - you can not WIN - I was just pointing out !! there is no perfect formula 2 find the perfect V - have always posted ! meet the breeder - the sire & dam - the litter - now if this does not matter ! get a pup off of Craigs list !


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## texasred

While others might, I'm not one to avoid a double digit COI.
We each have our own standards, and reasons for picking the pedigrees that best suites us.


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## R E McCraith

when looking 4 PIKE - I was amazed starting in the 60's the # of pups sired by top dogs example - Rebel Rouser ET offspring 116 - COI 8gens 59% - seems like the high COI did not stop other breeders from using him - just a observation - 1 that I took into account when picking PIKE !


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## Spy Car

R said:


> when looking 4 PIKE - I was amazed starting in the 60's the # of pups sired by top dogs example -c offspring 116 - COI 8gens 59% - seems like the high COI did not stop other breeders from using him - just a observation - 1 that I took into account when picking PIKE !


Like yours, my V has Rebel Rouser ET in the lineage (5 times in 10 generations), Rebel Rouser Bandieto, the sire of Rebel Rouser ET, 24 times in 10 gens. And the the sire/grandsire of these two Rebel Rouser Duke 42 times in 10 gens. 

Bill


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## texasred

REM 
You know you would have loved to own that dog.
That's Lucy's great grandshire, and her grandsire has a COI of around 40 if memory serve me correctly. 
Even if they scoffed at the high COI, they still wanted to add bigger run, and sweet temperament, and higher prey drive to their bloodlines that breeding to ET offered.

ET is not even at the top of the list of studs with the most offspring.
That title belongs to Hungargunn Bear Itn Mind with 604 offspring.

Edited because I looked up her sires COI its 34.797% and the bitches is 33.372% Lucy has a COI of 32.445%


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## R E McCraith

Spy - TR - most of us that have a VVell bred V - if you look back - most will have a Rebel Rouser in their blood lines ! just a fact of life - TR - conformation - prey driven & lap mutt - that is why I have a V in my life - I do not !!!! breed - leave that 2 the experts - but at some POINT - you have 2 say - this PUP will Work 4 ME !!!!!! and YES - ET would of been a GREAT PUP 2 have in MY HOUSE !!!!!!LOL !!!!


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## texasred

I don't want people to think I'm knocking dogs with a low COI, that just would not be the truth. A good dog, is a good dog.


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## einspänner

Scout has a COI% of 7.545 in 8 generations, but if you go back far enough you still find brother to sister and first cousin breedings. One dog appears 72 times in her pedigree. I wouldn't want a dog now that came out of such a close breeding, but it's an inevitable and necessary part of establishing a breed. 

Looking through her ped. I found this pic of one her shorthair relatives. I wonder what they meant by "Hungary's movie star." Kinda cool to follow the trail back before any wirehairs showed up.


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## R E McCraith

Ein ? do you have a date for this fantastic pic - **** - the V & falcon look great !!!!!!!!!


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## einspänner

They do look great! Such a timeless photo. There wasn't a date listed, but based on where it was in the pedigree I'd say 40s or 50s. I'll do a post later with some other pics I found there.


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## Spy Car

Here is another photo of Ficko. He stared in a couple of Hungarian movies (and was famous) from what I gather.


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## Spy Car

So it appears Ficko was a series of "Cimborák" movies. Here is a link to one on YouTube (there are others)

Bill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYf5LYTpcRE


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## R E McCraith

after years of research - the TRUTH !!!!!! is OUT !!!!!!!! V's were bred from RIN TIN TIN - LASSIE - SKOOBY DOO & NIEL ( the ghost dog on TOPPER ) PROVE ME WRONG !!!!!! LOL !!!!!!!


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## hobbsy1010

R said:


> after years of research - the TRUTH !!!!!! is OUT !!!!!!!! V's were bred from RIN TIN TIN - LASSIE - SKOOBY DOO & NIEL ( the ghost dog on TOPPER ) PROVE ME WRONG !!!!!! LOL !!!!!!!


Don't forget the 'Littlest Hobo'!!


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## R E McCraith

also - PETeY & ASTA


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## harrigab

TexasRed said:


> I don't want people to think I'm knocking dogs with a low COI, that just would not be the truth. A good dog, is a good dog.


in the long run I think a dog with a low COI paired with another unrelated dog with a low COI can only be a good thing, obviously we don't want a homogenous slump of a dog, we want diversity in the gene pool, but given what we've got after WW2 I think we have to make good with what's available. If I ever decide to use Elvis as a stud it'll be a minefield as his grandad has sired 255 pups..


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## texasred

Most of the time you will find the dog you consider breeding with is not totally unrelated. At some point and time the bloodlines were crossed. Breeders breed back to it to keep a consistency in their bloodline.


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## Israrules

R said:


> Is - did you miss the point !!!! did not look 4 a high COI - 10 gens - the health - length of life - proven in the field - just had a high COI - this is like talking about what 2 feed - you can not WIN - I was just pointing out !! there is no perfect formula 2 find the perfect V - have always posted ! meet the breeder - the sire & dam - the litter - now if this does not matter ! get a pup off of Craigs list !


I didn't know Craig list actually exists... I don't know man, may be I didn't understand you, I don't know, it is a little difficult for me to follow some ideas -not english speaker- :-\ but I was not finger pointing, sorry if it looked like I was. I just wanted to signalize that it is important to be aware of de COI of any breed, it doesn't sound like a big deal, but a lot of breeds has decreased dramatically their lifespan and have generalized genetic diseases because of the indiscriminate breeding. There are breeds like dobermann with 40% of the dogs affected with dilated cardiomyopathy, or cavalier king charles spaniel with 50% of the dogs with mitral valve disease, both lethal illnesses. Now, if you look at your dog's parents and know the owner and everything looks fine, high or low COI, there shouldn't be any problem, one just need to be careful when breeding.


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## Ksana

R said:


> Spy - TR - most of us that have a VVell bred V - if you look back - most will have a Rebel Rouser in their blood lines !!!!!


Yes, you are correct on this one. I am not sure about Europe, but I think it is so for the North American Vizslas. Rebel Rouser line is in my boy's pedigree as well.


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