# Complete Regression in Crating



## Sf49ersy5 (Jan 5, 2013)

Our girl is 12 1/2 weeks old now. We have had her for 4 weeks. We have been attempting to crate train her since day one with no success IMHO. My wife and I took time off of work when she first came home to help her get acclimated to her new home. During these 5 days we crated her at night and listed to the typical whines, cries and screams that everyone talks about and we were somewhat prepared for. When it came time for my wife and I to go back to work we arranged for someone to come by the house every 3 hours to let her out of her crate to use the bathroom and play. She would be screaming and crying in the crate when we would leave for work in the morning and when we came home. When we asked the people who come by to let her out they said she was screaming when they got there. As far as we could tell she was screaming and crying in her crate all day long (approximately 7 to 8 hrs). Concerned for her well-being we bought a webcam to watch her to determine if she actually screaming and crying all day long or if she was settling down. It turns out that some days she would scream for an hour and then settle down and go to sleep and other days she would settle down in as little as 10 minutes. Last week my father spent the week with her so she was not in her crate at all for a week. Now this week has been a complete disaster. On Monday I put her in her crate before leaving for work. She never calmed down the entire morning and it turns out that she peed and pooped in her crate for the first time within her first 3 hours. She has never peed or pooped in her crate before. We assumed it had to do with the change in her schedule from the prior week. On Tuesday my wife put her in her crate before leaving for work and while she still screamed and cried on the webcam she did appear to settle down within 2 hours. We got reports that she seemed to be back to herself when let out during the day. Wednesday was about the same as Tuesday. Thursday was the next day I was the one to place her in her crate before leaving for work and once again noticed on the webcam that she was not calming down and then we got a report from our dog walker that she had peed and pooped in her crate AGAIN! Today is Friday and I put her in her crate 2 hours ago and she has not stopped screaming and crying yet. I am afraid she is going to poop in her crate again. I am at a complete loss for what we are doing wrong to cause such a regression in her crating. Everyone on here and everyone I talk to says that gets better and that they learn to love their crate. After my experience for the first 4 weeks I am beginning to believe that this will not be the case with my dog. I am so stressed out that we are damaging our puppy that it is affecting me at work all day long. Can someone please help explain why she is regressing in her crate and what we can do to help her.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Let me know if I have this correctly.
First few days wife was at home and she was only crated at night.
Go back to work and have a dog walker, Pup cries 1 hour- 10 minutes when crated during the day after walker leaves.
Next dad comes over and she is not crated for a week.
Then back to crate and dog walker.

My opinion is your not being consistent with her, and this is prolonging the crate training problem. Your wife and dad should have crated her for short periods during the day when they were home with her.
Exercise from screaming and her young age is causing the pooping in the crate.


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## JoanTheJet (Oct 24, 2012)

I would also agree with the consistency that TexasRed mentioned. I feel like you might want to set a solid schedule for when you are gone. When she learns the routine, it should get better. 

Also, how big is the crate in comparison to her? We started small, then worked our way up. It also might sound weird, but when we first had our girl we slept by the kennel to help with the crying, and each night we would move further and further away. 

Other than that, you clearly love your little girl and want to do everything possible to help her. Just build a routine.....that's my best advice.


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## Sf49ersy5 (Jan 5, 2013)

Thanks for the responses. After about 1-1/2 weeks we stopped crating her at night and she sleeps on a dog bed in the corner of our bedroom. We didn't feel comfortable crating her for so many hours during the day and then again at night. Now when we go to bed she just goes to her corner and sleeps through the night. We usually only have to take her out once to pee or poop during the night right now.

My concern is the regression and especially the pooping in the crate after 4 weeks with us. I figured taking her away from her mother and litter mates would have been more of an adjustment to her schedule than going back to the crate after being puppy-sat by my father for a week. Are there any other things that we might not be considering that could cause this type of regression.

What type of behaviors inside the crate are considered normal "puppy getting used to the crate" behaviors and what should be considered problematic requiring professional help? Right now she jumps an kicks so much inside her crate that she can move it across the floor beyond the view of our webcam. 

How should I expect her to behave when she is considered "crate trained" or that the "loves her crate"? Do more mature puppy V's still show some separation anxiety after being initially placed into their crate and then quickly settle down or do they settle down immediately without any S. A. whatsoever?


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Free Professional advice removed by Author.


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## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

I second pretty much everything upthread has said.

I also strongly recommend that whenever you're making a drastic change to her schedule like you have--not crated during the day, the next day suddenly crated for 3 hours, that you honestly don't do it like that at all. Not while she's so young. She needs to learn to be alone in shorter increments. 

When Jasper came home, I took a week off to acclimate him to being in his crate. I worked in steps.

1. Put him in his crate and walk to the door. Walk back and let him out.
2. Put him in his crate and go out the door. Come back in immediately and let him out.
3. Put him in his crate, go out the door, wait a few minutes. Come back in and let him out.

etc. etc. etc. Note that I didn't come back in to our home until he wasn't crying. Sometimes that meant waiting right until he was taking a huge breath for another scream. Same went for actually letting him out. And then I wouldn't pet him or anything, just let him out. Don't make a fuss about going in or getting out of the crate. I worked up the time increments slowly--5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, 1 hour, 1.5 hours, 2 hours, 2.5 hours, 3 hours. I usually pretended to leave and hid in another room for the longer times, quietly. He'd usually settle in 10 minutes. Some days we could plow through three of those time increments that day. Other times we'd be stuck on 2 hours for 3 days because he'd start crying near the tail end.

On the weekends I would crate him even when I was home, just so he didn't forget what it was like to be in there.

I followed a routine, because as Ken said, dogs love routine (he still loves his "Mom's leaving!" routine, and gets fussed if I don't follow it, even though I have roommates now). You mentioned that most of the problems came when you crated her, not your wife. Is she doing something different? Amazingly enough, that can be enough to confuse your puppy into whether or not she's been abandoned forever, or if it's just a normal day.

Acclimating a puppy not only to a crate, but to being left alone in a crate, is a bit of an arduous process. Do not be surprised at any regression you might see, especially if there is a lot of change in her routine from week to week. At ~2.5 years, Jasper sees his Kong and goes in his crate. He will usually watch me leave, but then I can tell he starts working on his Kong right away. Then he lays down, chews some toys, sleeps, etc. 

Some crying and destruction is normal (remember--dogs are dogs, and some dogs really like to rip stuff up!), especially in the beginning. If you acclimate her slowly to being alone in the crate, the crying should stop over time, or at least be limited to the first few minutes after you leave, and maybe the last few minutes when she's figured out you should be coming home soon. But I would think that would eventually stop as well, as long as she's not anxious. For separation anxiety, don't just look for things like a little whining or ripping things up. Pacing, panting, trembling, obsessively licking, and other things signal separation anxiety as well. I don't think she has it now, but all Vs have a propensity towards developing it.



*tl;dr: Lots of exercise beforehand. Slowly acclimate her not just to being in the crate, but being in the crate alone with gradually increasing time. Do not make a fuss of her going into or getting out of the crate. Some dogs really love routine, so try to put her in and take her out the same way every time.*


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## sibou_2000 (Apr 28, 2013)

I am not the most experience dog owner but lots of play time and cuddling time had made Vlad crate transition better... Whenever it's nap time I put him in his crate... Worked perfectly for me even if I even tried leaving the crate door open and he will just lay there for a couple of hours... then it s outside play for some more playtime... Hope it helps a little


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## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

And even after you get this crate issued sorted out...

At 2.5 years, I still have Savannah practice being alone for at least a few minutes EVERY SINGLE DAY. If I miss a day, it is harder for her the next.


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## heckchic5015 (May 24, 2013)

My Ruby is 12 months old now. With crate training we experienced similar things. What you have to do is train your pup that the crate is a positive place. So what I did with Ruby is when she would fall asleep I would move her to her crate and leave the door open. Another thing I did was to work with her on going into the crate and give her treats and lots of praise. At night I would have the crate by our couch and would lay there awhile and give her praise for staying in the crate until she fell asleep. Of course now, she sleeps in our bed but doesn't mind the crate when we are at work.

One question -do you have a wire crate? We have a wire crate, and for whatever reason when we cove the crate (not the door) with a blanket Ruby started adjusting much better. They say it creates a "den" like environment that their natural instincts are familiar with.

I know it can be worrisome but you pup will adjust - patience and consistency are key


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## ryker (Apr 14, 2012)

There's not much I can add but I agree with above.

-Ryker took nearly every nap in his crate. We would play with him for 1.5-2 hours, then put him in his crate. He'd bark a minute or two, fall asleep, then bark when he woke up an hour or so later.

-Hand fed in the crate

-Left treats in the crate at random intervals.

-Happiest. Voices. Ever. When he was in the crate, we threw a party.

Ryker is 16 months old, and we also practice with alone time in the crate. If I'm home and he's in the crate, he is not happy. So we're working on that. Every time he sits quietly in the crate, he gets a small treat. 

The biggest thing- routine. I think that baby needs routine!


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## Sf49ersy5 (Jan 5, 2013)

Thanks again for the replies. Just to provide more info. We keep her in a plastic crate. If you can name it we have tried it, DAP diffuser, Dap spray, Ticking Clock, Sheet over sides of the crate, sheet over entire crate, blanket instead of a sheet, talk radio during the day, classical music during the day. We have tried so many things now we wouldn't know which one actually works for her, if any.

For a puppy I think we get a fair amount of exercise in the mornings. We wake up about 2 hours before my wife and I have to leave for work and we take turns playing and walking inside and outside with her while we get ready. A lot of days she is sleeping or calm and ready to back to sleep when we place her in her crate.

I don't believe she hates her crate because when the door is open she will go in and out if it, eat meals in it, eat treats in it, we train her with treats to go into her kennel and sit and lay down and she does fine and shows no anxiety. We have taken the door off and left it next to her in our bedroom at night to find her asleep in it in the morning. It is just when we close the door the subtle whining starts and then increases the longer we leave her inside until she starts screaming, barking and jumping inside.

We have been lax with the crating on the weekends. Starting today that will change.

Just an update: Yesterday was accident free in her crate. The replay of the webcam actually showed her being placed in her crate without a sound and laying down after about 20 seconds. I was amazed. I am now trying to understand why she doesn't behave that way for my wife and I.

I'll try to post the webcam videos once I figure out how to.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

*It is just when we close the door the subtle whining starts and then increases the longer we leave her inside until she starts screaming, barking and jumping inside.*

I know it can be tough to let one so little and cute throw a temper tantrum. But that's what has to happen to some pups. After the tantrum is over and she settles, then you can let her out. If you let her out during the tantrum, you are training her the exact behaviour you don't want.

Its like giving in to a child that whines for something. The more they get by the behavior, the more they whine.
Vs are smart and will train you, instead of you training them if your not careful.


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## Sf49ersy5 (Jan 5, 2013)

Here is the link to the video of me placing her in her crate before leaving for work on Friday morning. She has become stronger and is now able to move her crate by jumping against the sides. Can anyone tell if she is under more anxiety or stress than what is considered normal for puppies?

http://youtu.be/w5J-WKgnGnA

After watching the video I have realized what the scab marks just above her nose are from. They are from her rubbing her nose so hard into the metal bars on her crate door because she is trying to get out.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

I couldn't get your video to load and play. Don't know why. 

I don't wish to start a huge debate, Sf49ersy5, but did you know that some people don't use crates at all? I do understand their usefulness, but I don't use one and never have. It's just my thing.


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## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

Watch the Gods creatures all gifts to us at Zoo's

Then watch them free proud remote 

and don't care the application or even a more open Pen

there Stuck they know it 

and its not close to Freedom

spend 4 days in a crate ;D

anything good enough for them

100 x greater for you ;D

and Post the pictures

a real Learning" Tool" :-*


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## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

I can't say whether or not that amount of whining and barking is normal, since I only really have Jasper to off of. Every dog has a different response to crating and being left alone. I can tell you that he didn't have a fit that long (at that age), nor did he try to bust out of his crate. But his was one of those big metal ones--he wasn't strong enough to move it! Regardless, she's pretty clearly upset, and if this is still lasting most of the time while you're gone, you might want to consider trying some different approaches.

She also looks like a dog that's smart enough to realize that with one good jump, she can tip that crate over and bust out of there (the crate's looking like it's getting a little snug too). My brother and sister-in-law had that for their King Charles Cavalier Spaniel, and he was able to get out of it a couple of time by messing with the door. 

My roommates' mini-dox doesn't like being in the crate that is "her size," and will bang her nose on the door. When they switched to a bigger size, she was fine. 

Or you might try leaving her in a safe space (nothing but her, her toys, a bed/blanket, water, and some sod/pads in case she potties--no cupboards or anything she can get into), as she might acclimate to that better.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Finally got your video to play. She seems quite upset, for sure! It seems like she is trying to say, "HELP, HELP, HELP, HELP!! I'M TRAPPED INSIDE OF THIS BOX!! HELP, HELP, HELP!!" :'(

I agree with redrover's last paragraph about maybe finding (setting up) an alternative safe place for her confinement. Eventually, she could have free run of the house when she's old enough (two years).


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## Shany (Dec 8, 2012)

I too have had the same crating problem. She is now 7 1/2 months old and she is not using the crate anymore because she completely and utterly hated it so much that she managed to break free from it. 

My dog trainer however advised me to place her in the crate about 15 minutes before leaving home, otherwise she will make a mental association between her being crated and the 2 of you leaving. She should get in the crate on her own. Throw in a treat, let her get in voluntarily. Then don't allow her out of the crate. Leave the door open and go about your business in the house. She might try to get out, the door being open, but once you notice that, get her back in with another treat. Keep doing what you are doing without looking at her. After 10 minutes nonchalantly walk past her crate and close the door. It is very important that she stays in the crate also when you are at home. 

I myself hated that crate so much, she must've felt it and like I said, didn't take to it. 
She too wouldn't stop crying and barking and she too peed and pooped in the crate. 

It's been 3 weeks she's been out of it and hasn't chewed nor peed on anything in the house. She is alone for about 4-5 hours. She very much enjoys staying on the balcony watching people and getting some sun. 

Good luck with her! Keep us updated


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## adrino (Mar 31, 2012)

It's not the end of the world if you can't crate train your dog. We couldn't do it either... 
Elza just didn't take on it well. We tried all the suggestions above too and she just hated it. After about a month and a half I decided to leave her crate open and we never looked back! She still had her crate but I would only close her in there while I was cleaning. We had a strict routine though and me and my partner worked opposite shifts so she wasn't left alone more than a few hours a day when she would be sleeping anyway. The crate was huge compared to her size but she never peed or pooed in it. We had to use puppy pads since we are living on the 3rd floor. She was always left with plenty toys, soft and chewable. She has only chewed a few little bits around her crate (wall, door corner, the bottom of the crate and one bedding) but nothing unrepairable and we also used the bitter apple spray to reduce chewing. 
From 6 months old she's been sleeping in a basket. She is in a confined space though but since 8-9 months old I could if I want to leave the living room door open for her. Most of the time she isn't allowed there on her own but if its sunny she likes to sunbathe by the balcony. She has never touched anything that isn't hers that includes shoes, cushions, furniture or anything that we have around. 

What I'm trying to say is that it's ok if you don't use a crate. It can be done with grate care if you make sure you never leave anything around that you don't want it to get damaged. Wherever you decide to leave her out of the crate make sure you puppy proof it. No chemicals, shoes, plastic things, furniture that you would be upset if she chews any personal items that's not meant to be hers. (Elza's space is our hallway-corridor with baby gates to other rooms)
She's not allowed in our bedroom either but her bed is right in front of our door so we can hear her if something is up. But that is of course is a personal choice. 

I too understand the usefulness of a crate but every dog is different and some takes on it better than others. 

Good luck to you with the training, I'm sure things will improve soon.


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