# UPDATE: Cruciate ligament - Rear leg injury advice



## giandaliajr (Nov 24, 2012)

Literally the day before he was set to finish the antibiotics (for pneumonia) and return to the dog park little Berkeley hurt himself. He was running on the hardwood floors at my in-laws house and slide and ran into a microwave that was sitting on the floor. I wasn't there when it happened but apparently he yelped for a while (couple minutes) and then nursed it. He wouldn't put any pressure on it after the fall.

We took him to the emergency hospital and the doctor poked and prodded him but couldn't really find out where it hurt. He seemed slightly uncomfortable with his knee extended but other than that there was no pain indicators. He still wouldn't let it touch the ground. She advised us to go to our regular vet monday morning and possibly have an x-ray (which was nice because she said even if we did the x-ray that night he wouldnt have surgery or and change in treatment that weekend). She gave him some pain killers though.

So basically when he stands its up and sometimes he lets his toes touch the ground but if he puts any pressure on it he brings it back up.

After we got home today he was sleeping in his bed so I decided to feel around on his leg and try to get some sort of reaction (like his eyes opening or something), but he didnt do anything with me feeling all around (similar to last night with the DR). The Vet guessed it was in the knee but i kind of think it has to do with the hip area. She didnt feel anything out of the normal with the joints or tendons or anything.

It seems that it is either deep inside the leg and surface pressure doesnt hurt it, or the pain only happens when he puts pressure on it.

Does anyone know of any V specific things it may be?


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## lilyloo (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Rear leg injury advice*

Ruby sprained her hip back in November. She would put weight on it and walk, but yelped anytime she layed or sat down. There was also significant swelling over her hip on her lower back . Our vet treated her with a cortisone shot to bring down the inflammation and she was on crate rest for 10 days. The swelling took a month to go away completely. 

Sounds like your guy definitely needs an xray. Do you notice any swelling anywhere? The fact that he won't put weight on his leg leads me to believe it's more serious than a sprain. 

Keep us updated. Have you checked his paw on the effected leg to see if that's where the pain is coming from?


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

*Re: Rear leg injury advice*

I doubt that what ever your pup has done is Vizsla specific.

Have you checked out his toes, very gently to see whether he react to you moving or applying gentle pressure to them? 

The other thing to consider is soft tissue and or bone bruising. Dogs do not have much flesh on their legs and especially pups, so it is very possible that if he hit something it has caused deep bruising. You obviously need to get him x-rayed to rule out any fractures.

Hope he is better soon.


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## FLgatorgirl (Mar 11, 2013)

*Re: Rear leg injury advice*

Our Ellie had a very similar situation when she was around 4 months old. Her best playmate crashed into her rear leg when they were both at high speed. He has a head like a concrete block. She could not put any weight on the leg and that night was panting, shaking and moaning in discomfort. We could not feel that anything was broken, but took her straight to the vet in the morning. The leg showed no signs of pain when manipulated. The vet was about to give up when she finally got a pain response toward the hip. We were given an anti-inflamatory/pain med scrip and told one full week of rest, mostly crated. After a four hour crate nap and one pain pill, she was putting weight back on the leg. 

She was hard to contain after the third day because she felt so much better. We finally gave in and started gradually walking her around a bit after day four, but kept her calm and continued meds. Full recovery, no problems since. The vet says they see soft tissue or bruising type injuries like this all of the time. If after 7 days she was not better, they would have then ordered Xrays. Good luck and hope your pup is better soon, I know I was freaking out.


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## giandaliajr (Nov 24, 2012)

*Re: Rear leg injury advice*

We will be bringing him in at 8am when the vet opens tomorrow morning.

There isn't any visible swelling. His paw looks normal and there is no reaction when I poked around. That's the odd thing, there is no reaction anywhere. 

He definitely doesn't like to lay on that side though. 

A deep bone bruise makes sense. Or I suppose a bone chip too. I feel like if it was a break or fracture the vet would have been able to elicit some kind of pain. Hopefully it doesn't require surgery but im sure the vet will recommend an x-ray tomorrow morning.


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## giandaliajr (Nov 24, 2012)

*Re: Rear leg injury advice*



FLgatorgirl said:


> Our Ellie had a very similar situation . . . . If after 7 days she was not better, they would have then ordered Xrays. Good luck and hope your pup is better soon, I know I was freaking out.


Yeah, especially after we had to leave him overnight in the hospital a couple weeks ago. I could only imagine what it's like having a kid!

The emergency vet prescribed Tramadol for pain, starting with a whole 50mg tablet every 8 hours but we ended up only giving him 1/2 every 8 hours so far since he doesn't visible appear to be in pain. If anything he just looks like he is being lazy, fully aware of everything just not the madhouse he usually is. I wouldnt describe it as lethargic, which is probably a good thing. 

Thanks


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## FLgatorgirl (Mar 11, 2013)

*Re: Rear leg injury advice*

Ellie was given Rimadyl 75mg once daily which is mostly anti inflammatory which in turn helps with pain. They gave me larger quantity than needed and said they were good to have around for typical crazy puppy injuries like this. I have used it maybe twice since then just as a precaution when we had additional rough play accidents. 

Our breeder also told me that her rule is that if there is not an apparent break, she puts the dog on total crate rest for 72 hours and if that does not cure the problem, then heads to the vet. 

I cannot imagine having to leave the puppy in the hospital overnight. I would be in need of meds as well ???. We do not have kids either and also cannot imagine what it is like when a little one is injured or sick.


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## giandaliajr (Nov 24, 2012)

*Re: Rear leg injury advice*

It kind if seems like the issue is in his ankle area. When he was standing up eating I gently held his right hip and he transferred some weight to it so I'm pretty sure it's not in the hip or knee.

Then I put my hand under the foot and when it touched he pulled it up higher, same with the ankle. His major tendons in the area feel fine and again he doesn't squirm while he is laying. Only while standing, but I didn't press hard at all so it must be very sensitive.

Any ideas of problems in the ankle area? I tried searching the net for some info and most things come back relating to the knee.


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## maplevizsla (Oct 26, 2012)

*Re: Rear leg injury advice*

Do an x-ray from hip to toe just to be sure everything is checked.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

*Re: Rear leg injury advice*

I have learned over the years that my regular vet can take good xrays, but the orthopedic vet takes better ones. 
In a effort to keep my dog from being put under twice and save a little money, I have the specialist do the xrays.
I just have my vet give me a referral.


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## giandaliajr (Nov 24, 2012)

We just got berkeley back from the vet. Its a strained or torn cruciate ligament in his right hind knee. The Dr said it has 30-40% more give than the left cruciate when manipulated. Nothing wrong with the bones though.

He gave us Rimadyl 75mg to bring down the inflammation and said to wait two weeks as a conservative approach, in the event it is only a strain. If its a partial tear or full tear he will need surgery. The Dr said it won't make a difference if the surgery is now or in two weeks so its best to see if this works first.

Not really sure if this is good news or bad news. Hoping for a strain and he starts showing signs of improvement.


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## Emily1970 (Apr 21, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear about what you're going thru. Riley didn't have the ligament problem, but had to have both of his hips broken and redone with plates and screws. Rimadyl can definitely be your friend, but please remember (speaking from a lot of experience with meds) that Rimadyl can also cause digestive tract issues and very quickly such as ulcers. Riley took Rimadyl fine for awhile, but then suddenly his stomach couldn't take it and we had to get him Tramadol instead. Keep your chin up and my brood sends V kisses your way.


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## giandaliajr (Nov 24, 2012)

Thanks, the Dr actually recommended taking Tramadol too if he is getting too hyper, basically to sedate him.

One good thing that came from the x-rays was his hips. He said they look great and he pretty much has zero chance of developing hip dysphasia in the future. Basically there is a faint line that runs through the ball joint connecting to the hip, and if the hip covers 50% or more of that ball (past the line) he has very little risk. He is at about 55%. 

But if anyone needs a vet in manhattan Dr. Dipolo at Worth Street Vet is great. www.worthstreetvet.com Particularly after having so much interaction with him over the last couple months (shots, ear infection, pneumonia, and now the ACL) I have complete confidence in his recommendations. He's also in favor of putting off neutering until at least 8/9 months so bigger breeds have a chance to develop, which I think we are going to keep Berk intact forever, but it shows he doesn't tow the party line of 6 months. They also have a water rehab facility on site.


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## Emily1970 (Apr 21, 2011)

Water rehab is great. I'm glad your V isn't at risk of hip dysplasia to add to your problems. The whole process was horrible and I hate anyone having to go thru it. Any injury is worrisome and I'm glad you're dedicated to doing what it takes to correct the problem. The tramadol helped us a great deal after the second surgery especially. His pain was terrible and he took 150 mg. 3x a day. The sedative effect helped keep him calm too. Good luck!


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## Penny (Sep 22, 2011)

My sympathies are with you .... Our little guy may have done the same thing. About a month ago, at only 8 weeks, he landed badly and hurt his back leg. I posted about it at the time and got some really helpful feedback. The vet thought at the time that it was his cruciate, as she did the 'drawer' test, and even I could see there was movement there compared to his other hind leg. Due to his age, of course surgery is out of the question. Apart from being a bit tender on it for a few days, though, he seems fine now. We are keeping our fingers crossed that it wasn't the ACL after all, but time will tell... What age is Berkeley? I'm guessing that if surgery is required the dog would have to be physically mature, but I don't know this for sure. I was quite upset about it at the time but have calmed down a lot since - bright side, the operation appears to have a very high success rate, and think of how many professional sports people are out there with repaired ACLs! Hope Berkeley gets over the pain quickly.


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## giandaliajr (Nov 24, 2012)

He is 5 months old. I don't think physical maturity has to do with surgery, although I doubt they would want to operate on an 8 week old. From what I understand if the ACL is even partially torn surgery is eventually required because the ACL doesn't repair itself.

Since gettin his first bit of medicine today and sleeping most of the day he has started to put pressure on it. Even jumped on the couch when I wasn't watching. It's like a full time job making sure he isn't walking around. I just had to put him in his crate because he wouldn't stop trying to run around. 

Right now it seems like the same situational FLgatorgirl wrote about. I'm hopeful it's just a strained ACL! I'm not sure if its the medicine that's letting him walk around or if he is getting a little better. It's been 48 hours since his slip and fall


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## maplevizsla (Oct 26, 2012)

*Re: Rear leg injury advice*



TexasRed said:


> I have learned over the years that my regular vet can take good xrays, but the orthopedic vet takes better ones.
> In a effort to keep my dog from being put under twice and save a little money, I have the specialist do the xrays.
> I just have my vet give me a referral.


Sedate for x-rays? Titan wasn't sedated for his x-ray of his hips (3 were done: lying down position on back and on his side and standing) and this was at our regular vet clinic. Then we had 2 more x-rays done since the initial toe-break and the vet did the x-ray while Titan was standing and again lying on his side, but just of his foot the other times. He goes for one last x-ray this weekend actually to see how it has healed in the last 3 months.

So sorry to hear your your little Berkley has had this happen - speedy recovery wishes to him!


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## Emily1970 (Apr 21, 2011)

Riley was always sedated for x-rays for 2 reasons. First reason he's a squirmer. Second reason, some of the views they have to take can be painful for them. He was always back up and ready to go within an hour with no side effects.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

My male thinks vets are going to eat him alive, so yes he has to be sedated to get good xrays.
My female normally not, although she was sedated to check for patellar luxation when she wouldn't relax her leg.


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## giandaliajr (Nov 24, 2012)

Berk didnt have to have sedation for his chest x-rays two weeks ago, and last tuesday (for his pneumonia) but had to have them yesterday so they could keep his leg in certain positions. 

Under sedation was the only way the Dr found out it was the cruciate ligament because he wasn't having any responses or any discernible movement in that joint when he was awake.

I can already tell this is going to be a big pain in the ass keeping him calm. This morning I have him a whole 50mg pill of tramadol and he was still wanting to play an our after giving it to him! I had to put him in his crate to make him calm down. 

Although we started letting him sleep in our bed at night because he has been particularly clingy after his injury and its crazy how a 35 pound dog somehow takes up the entire bed. Half the time he tries to push me off!


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## FLgatorgirl (Mar 11, 2013)

Sending positive thoughts your way that is the same issue our Ellie had and your pup will be all better soon. It was very hard keeping her down after day three when she seemed to be 100% better. We took some very short gentle leashed walks just around the yard, a tiny bit further each day while watching for any changes. Do you have any fun toys he can work on while in the crate? I like to give Ellie old tube socks tied up in knots with bits of treats slipped inside the folds of the knots. To add to that, I now put the socks in an old towel all tied or folded up so it is even harder to get out. Maybe look online or someone else here would have some suggestions of mentally stimulating games that can be played in the crate or on leash on the rug to help your pup pass some time. Good luck with everything.


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## giandaliajr (Nov 24, 2012)

I found a pretty interested website regarding ACL injuries. http://tiggerpoz.com/index.html

Everything the guy is saying seems pretty on point and makes sense.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Very,very interesting article - thanks for posting.

I tore my ACL 9 years ago and it recovered very well. Unfortunately, it left the leg vulnerable. Over 8 years I injured it several more time because of the weakness, until 18 months ago I missed the last step coming down stairs and fell because the left knee no had no stability left. Time for surgery - I had an ACL reconstruction with a donor ligament and was back to normal in not time.

I would think with a pup, as in your case giandaliajr, you could expect a really good recovery with rest as the ligament is going to stretch and grow anyway so gain more elasticity as your pup grows. 

Wishing your pup a good recovery. I certainly think that article gives you lots of hope - thanks for sharing.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

giandaliajr said:


> I found a pretty interested website regarding ACL injuries. http://tiggerpoz.com/index.html
> 
> Everything the guy is saying seems pretty on point and makes sense.


While I liked the points of the article, I didn't care for them lumping all vets together.
In any profession there is going to be people in it just for the money. 
Their only pride is whats in their bank account. On the other hand there will be the ones that truly enjoy their work, and have the animals best intrest at heart. As a dog owner we need to do our research, and stay as well informed as possible.


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## giandaliajr (Nov 24, 2012)

Good point TexasRed. I actually emailed the guy who created the website for his feedback on Berk's specific situation and the first thing he told me was to stop giving him Rimadyl immediately (dont worry im not going to stop). There is no research I found out there that shows anti-inflammatory drugs are bad in all cases. Since the Rimadyl was prescribed every 24 hours, i think this does what it is meant to do. It reduces too much inflammation but still allows the benefits to the bodies natural response.

Not to mention, my vet is extremely conservative in his treatment recommendations and there is no vested interested in prescribing anti-inflammatory meds when they would harm, like this guy contends. 

But he has some good points. I think he is to the extreme though and a happy balance is what is probably right. Ultimately, im going to trust my vet because he hasn't lead me astray yet!


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## abatt (Jul 10, 2012)

Hi giandaliajr,
I was wondering why we haven't seen Berkley at the dog park for a while. So sorry to hear about your little pup. I hope he recovers soon enough. Please keep us updated.


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## giandaliajr (Nov 24, 2012)

GOOD NEWS!!!

Just got back from Berkeley's follow-up. The dr said he is doing very well and he can return to the normal length of his walks, just no off leash activity for the next week or two. I was pretty surprised, I was thinking he would have him do a few 5 minute walks then gradually go up from there in the coming months. He said 60-90 minutes throughout the day is fine. It's just the high impact activities we need to avoid. 

He said that if it was a full rupture or a large partial tear he wouldn't be doing nearly as well. He only noticed a slight lameness when he walked him around the office. He also advised us to stop talking the Rimadyl and save the remaining tabs in case he seems to be a bit sore after an intense exercise session.

Therapy wise he said with Berk's recovery so far he doesn't really need any but water therapy would help build his strength up. He said if berk was a big athlete then he would recommend water therapy before returning to running but since he is only 5.5 months its not necessary. We will probably do it anyways to tire him out a couple times a week. 

The Tramadol did absolutely nothing to keep him calm the last two weeks. Last week we also went back to the vet to get a different mood suppressor and they gave us Acepromazine (tranquilizer), which also did absolutely nothing. I think he needed a horse tranq to actually calm him down. That has been by far the worst part of this whole thing, keeping him from running around.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Thank you for the update... Glad to hear it's going so well for little Berkeley!!


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