# Biting



## Vizslavizsla

Our Vizsla pup is 12 weeks old and getting on great! 

One question.. He seems to bite a lot and I've read a lot of different ways to deal with this. What does everyone recommend? He seems to nip then you try push him away and he thinks it's a game.. Sometimes he starts to hurt. We just hope he doesn't have a nasty streak in him! 

Thanks!


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## Spy Car

Vizslavizsla said:


> Our Vizsla pup is 12 weeks old and getting on great!
> 
> One question.. He seems to bite a lot and I've read a lot of different ways to deal with this. What does everyone recommend? He seems to nip then you try push him away and he thinks it's a game.. Sometimes he starts to hurt. We just hope he doesn't have a nasty streak in him!
> 
> Thanks!


Not a nasty streak. Normal Vizsla puppy behavior. To be expected. They are a very "mouthy" breed by nature.

I'm convinced the best way to deal with it is to gently fold the Vs cheeks inside its mouths and it bite down on its own lips (with your hand wrapped around). 

This teaches the V that its little sharp teeth hurt, and in time these lessons develop a soft mouth (which is what you want). Far better to go through this learning process IMO, than to end it with either forceful corrections or by resorting to tactics like spaying them with a bottle. It is a "process." You want it to be a process. 

Use this time of normal Vizsla development to your advantage, and as an opportunity to teach life-long lessons. It is not behavior to "worry about," but does need active attention to bring about the right results. Developing a soft mouth V is of paramount importance.

Good chews will also help the pup during this period of teething (which is tied into the mouthiness).

Bill


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## chilithevizsla

Can you expand more on the kind of biting?
Is it during just general play? That's normal puppy behavior, they play with their mouths a lot! Look up "bite inhibition", find the kindest method that doesn't involve negative reinforcement and try that. Also try and redirect the biting to a toy, chew or anything that isn't you. The best way to do this is to play games where the energy is focused AWAY from you so things like chase/fetch a toy, flirt pole near the ground (keep jumping to a minimal), sniff out treats in the grass, anything that basically doesn't involve coming at you or your hands.

If it's something Viz owners call "shark attacks" which usually happen at a certain time of the evening (if that's the case it's great because you can predict them and start the below process before the biting happens) and is biting which isn't necessarily seen as trying to play, just wild swinging of teeth and is very relentless then it's a behavior you have to manage.

The cause is being over threshold while being tired, so basically think of a toddler, they get tired and have a hissy fit. If this starts, walk out the room for a few seconds and come back in armed with treats.
Now is the time to start teaching your dog their off switch!
What you do is for a short period do some very basic training in a calm manner. Ask for some sits, leaves, downs, paws or whatever your dog already knows. You don't want to be teaching new behaviors as your dog may get frustrated again. They should be easy and relaxing to do, this starts shutting off your pups brain by calming them. After about 5 minutes while young take the dog to it's crate or place you want them to sleep and ask for down, once they laid down slowly release treats to the pup. after another 5 minutes your dog should be chill and ready to sleep so stop with the treats. Eventually you can increase the time between each treat and reduce the time to make them settle down.

It's a very valuable thing to teach the pup!
Good luck


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## R E McCraith

I treat the pup just like their Mom - bite me - pick them up by the scruff of the neck - put them in the crate - a soft NO !!!! then ignore them - hand feeding helps - 1st 4 weeks - they learn this is not GOOD !!!!!


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## chilithevizsla

R said:


> I treat the pup just like their Mom - bite me - pick them up by the scruff of the neck - put them in the crate - a soft NO !!!! then ignore them - hand feeding helps - 1st 4 weeks - they learn this is not GOOD !!!!!


Old school methods have no place in 2015 I'm afraid, dog training has moved on and with good reason, there's no need to use such harsh methods anymore.

It can create hand shyness, doesn't teach the dog bite inhibition and the method is so slow on delivery that the pup probably doesn't associate the punishment with the biting.

Positive reinforcement and management is all you need to deal with this problem.


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## texasred

Because this is a global forum, your going to get a wide range of opinions on training. And keep in mind what works for one pup, may not work for the next.
Read up on as many posts as you can find on puppy nipping (shark attacks), try to find what best fits you and your new pup.


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## R E McCraith

chili - Chill - ? what is wrong with hand feeding the 1st 4 weeks - may V it takes alot of time - good breeders have a welping bed - time out 4 mom & a place 2 correct the pup - I never raise my voice or hand 2 my pups - must V old school - the reward my pups get is at my side - the safest place in the world - there is NO failure in the PUPS - just the owners - I do not treat train - they get them at ramdon - because I love them - Whoa board - check cord - voice - hand & whistle ? - I'm OLD SCHOOL !!!!!! NO stress on the PUP !! less STRESS on ME !!!!!


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## Bob Engelhardt

chilithevizsla said:


> Old school methods have no place in 2015 I'm afraid, dog training has moved on and with good reason,


You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but you don't need to be so dogmatic about it.


> there's no need to use such harsh methods anymore.


What do you consider harsh in REM's treatment?


> It can create hand shyness, doesn't teach the dog bite inhibition and the method is so slow on delivery that the pup probably doesn't associate the punishment with the biting.


Apparently it does teach it to REM's pups. Far from being a slow delivery, I'd say that it is as fast as possible: the pup bites you and you pick it up.


> Positive reinforcement and management is all you need to deal with this problem.


That can also work.

Bob


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## R E McCraith

How do U ignore your V ? 
ME - leave the PUP at home & move to another COUNTRY !!!!!!!! LOL !!!!!!


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## R E McCraith

Did I miss read this POST ? 12wk old PUP ? house break - break 2 bird then gun - bite me - I correct !it - sits - leaves - down - PAWS ( you must have a magic V )- takes a year 2 get WHOA & HERE correct !!!! that is OLD SCHOOL !!!!!!


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## chilithevizsla

R said:


> chili - Chill - ? what is wrong with hand feeding the 1st 4 weeks


I have no problem with hand feeding, this is essentially giving treats to build a good relationship with you, your hands and your pup.



R said:


> NO stress on the PUP !! less STRESS on ME !!!!!


I can assure you picking up a puppy by the scruff when you're frustrated is stressful, especially if you're not used to doing it and have to struggle to get there, hence why I said it can be slow delivery.

@Bob, I consider grabbing a pup by the scruff at more than a few weeks old when they're heavy harsh. Also placing them in a crate to be stressed about the separation when the whole idea of the modern crate is for the pup to feel secure when separated from you, counter productive to say the least.

How much experience do you have around REMs dogs? I know I have none and can't judge whether this kind of treatment has caused behavioral fall outs or not. What I can say is studies and behaviorists have proven that it can. Even if it hasn't, like another user wrote, what works for their pups might not work for yours.

I'm not disputing that old school methods work, they do work in the sense that they get results but they're risky because they have a high rate of behavioral fall out. Positive methods when done right have none of these risks and create a stronger relationship so why would we not use them?

I've explained why my methods are best, now it's your turn I guess?


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## texasred

> can assure you picking up a puppy by the scruff when you're frustrated is stressful, especially if you're not used to doing it and have to struggle to get there, hence why I said it can be slow delivery.


I don't see where his post mentioned anything about being frustrated.

Taken out of context as you have done, it can sound rather harsh.
Done wrong it could also be harsh on a pup.

There is a good reason I mention what is okay for some owners and pups, is not good for others. Some of these high drive hunting pups can handle more pressure without any ill effects, than your softer Vs. 
Next is owner experience with the breed/training, and being able to read something and then do it correctly.

I personally think my training style is a mix of old school, combined with the new. I like to use positive methods, but negative responses also have a place.


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## mommaofalot

chilithevizsla said:


> How much experience do you have around REMs dogs? I know I have none and can't judge whether this kind of treatment has caused behavioral fall outs or not. What I can say is studies and behaviorists have proven that it can. Even if it hasn't, like another user wrote, what works for their pups might not work for yours.


I'm sure there are also other studies and behaviorists that believe a different way is better... I believe in giving your opinions on this board what works for some may not work for others. I also believe people should not attack a way another owner takes care of THEIR dog. One more thing you can have an opinion but it's your opinion no need to try and force your views on others... let people try the ways they think will work best for their pup instead of pushing you are wrong and I am right. Just like kids what works to discipline one child may not work for another.


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## einspänner

Ok, I think we've discussed the scruff thing to death. If you'd like to continue talking about positive only vs other methods of training please start a new thread. Let's get back to giving advice on biting here.


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## dextersmom

Vizslavizsla said:


> One question.. He seems to bite a lot and I've read a lot of different ways to deal with this.
> 
> We just hope he doesn't have a nasty streak in him!


I would recommend searching the forum for "shark attacks." The biting (while often extreme) is normal for V pups. So no worries, they WILL grow out of it. The forum archives will give you lots of ideas for dealing with it in the meantime though


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## mommaofalot

when my pups lick me I praise them good kisses... when they bite I tell them no bites kisses and they start to lick me instead. Koda my one year old caught on to this very quickly but my new pup 15 weeks is taking a little more time to switch over but we have only had her two week


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## chilithevizsla

I am very entitled to say someone's opinion or way of doing things is wrong... It's my opinion these types of methods are wrong and do not belong in 2015 etc, were on a forum, anything said should be taken as opinion unless it's backed by science or law. I have no way to reinforce my thoughts so anyone taking it as anything as an opinion is taking it the wrong way.

The funny thing is I've defended my reasoning as to why positive solution is best, I've explained fully and given good explanations.

All you lot have done is defend your methods by saying "we're entitled to our opinion" how does help you the OP? How does that help anyone reading? It doesn't it just makes Your methods look shallow and without reason other than it worked 20 years ago so why wouldn't it now

Try and convince the OP and me why choosing that method is best which is exactly what I've done and maybe I'd consider taking your methods as a choice rathe than inferior method.


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## harrigab

we've been lucky with Elvis, very few shark attacks, Ruby seems to get the attention on that score, his one and only shark attack on one of us (humans) was met with a firm "Ah!" followed by "aht-tat-tat" and the sit command. I know this won't work with every pup, but it just seems to have worked for us.


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## harrigab

chilithevizsla said:


> I am very entitled to say someone's opinion or way of doing things is wrong... It's my opinion these types of methods are wrong and do not belong in 2015 etc, were on a forum, anything said should be taken as opinion unless it's backed by science or law. I have no way to reinforce my thoughts so anyone taking it as anything as an opinion is taking it the wrong way.
> 
> The funny thing is I've defended my reasoning as to why positive solution is best, I've explained fully and given good explanations.
> 
> All you lot have done is defend your methods by saying "we're entitled to our opinion" how does help you the OP? How does that help anyone reading? It doesn't it just makes Your methods look shallow and without reason other than it worked 20 years ago so why wouldn't it now
> 
> Try and convince the OP and me why choosing that method is best which is exactly what I've done and maybe I'd consider taking your methods as a choice rathe than inferior method.


well it's *my *opinion that methods aren't cast in stone, no two dogs are the same and therefore different methods may produce the required result. The best opinions, again only in my opinion, are the ones that are backed up with experience. ....Now, can we get back on track please.


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## chilithevizsla

harrigab said:


> chilithevizsla said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am very entitled to say someone's opinion or way of doing things is wrong... It's my opinion these types of methods are wrong and do not belong in 2015 etc, were on a forum, anything said should be taken as opinion unless it's backed by science or law. I have no way to reinforce my thoughts so anyone taking it as anything as an opinion is taking it the wrong way.
> 
> The funny thing is I've defended my reasoning as to why positive solution is best, I've explained fully and given good explanations.
> 
> All you lot have done is defend your methods by saying "we're entitled to our opinion" how does help you the OP? How does that help anyone reading? It doesn't it just makes Your methods look shallow and without reason other than it worked 20 years ago so why wouldn't it now
> 
> Try and convince the OP and me why choosing that method is best which is exactly what I've done and maybe I'd consider taking your methods as a choice rathe than inferior method.
> 
> 
> 
> well it's *my *opinion that methods aren't cast in stone, no two dogs are the same and therefore different methods may produce the required result. The best opinions, again only in my opinion, are the ones that are backed up with experience. ....Now, can we get back on track please.
Click to expand...

in a list of importantance when it comes to choosing a method, experience is the last thing because experience can also lead to people unwilling to adapt or accept new things.

All my opinions are backed by up to date science, research and behaviourists.

Ofcourse not all methods suit but not in the way you're saying. Some dogs are not food orientated so you use toys, some dogs don't respond to toys but instead praise works. One of those will work... Maybe the exact method I use doesn't work but a positive method of some variety will and that's how you get the best results without risk of causing your puppy mental damage. Like I said earlier, negative reinforcement works on some pups without problems but you're taking a risk where positive methods you're not, why is it so hard to understand.

And stop saying to move on, this is relevant to the OP in deciding which method to use.
I agree if you're not defending or explaining a method and just focusing on me and how I'm telling others they're wrong then maybe you shouldn't post because it's getting personal when I do no want it to. I'm here to help people, not attack or be attacked.


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## harrigab

okay, we're going round in circles here, the OP asked "what does *everyone*recommend"....To me that entitles everyone to air their views and experiences, but if we continue to deviate from the thread, I will shut it down. Let the OP decide on which method to pursue.


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## toadnmeme

Vizslavizsla said:


> He seems to nip then you try push him away and he thinks it's a game.


This has been a hard thing to discipline my kids about (and myself at times, lol). Our puppy (and older one when he was puppy) definitely gets more worked up when pushed away while shark attacking. One thing that works with mine is when the shark attack starts, give them a toy to put it their mouths and say no bite (or whatever command you are using) then no petting or attention until they stop the attack or keep the toy in the mouth. Some are super mouthy and need something to carry around or chew on at all times. My older one still greets us with something in his mouth because he knows he's not allowed to mouth us, sometimes socks still get lost this way . Just be consistent with whatever you chose to do and he'll catch on, there is great advice on here and yes, all dogs are different. Make sure to search shark attack on the forum. You may have to try a few different things to find what works best for you and 

This time around is much better for us with the puppy because my poor older one gets the brunt of it from our 5 month old :-[


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## harrigab

toadnmeme said:


> Vizslavizsla said:
> 
> 
> 
> He seems to nip then you try push him away and he thinks it's a game.
> 
> 
> 
> This has been a hard thing to discipline my kids about (and myself at times, lol). Our puppy (and older one when he was puppy) definitely gets more worked up when pushed away while shark attacking. One thing that works with mine is when the shark attack starts, give them a toy to put it their mouths and say no bite (or whatever command you are using) then no petting or attention until they stop the attack or keep the toy in the mouth. Some are super mouthy and need something to carry around or chew on at all times. My older one still greets us with something in his mouth because he knows he's not allowed to mouth us, sometimes socks still get lost this way . Just be consistent with whatever you chose to do and he'll catch on, there is great advice on here and yes, all dogs are different. Make sure to search shark attack on the forum. You may have to try a few different things to find what works best for you and
> 
> _*This time around is much better for us with the puppy because my poor older one gets the brunt of it from our 5 month old :-[*_
Click to expand...

Amen to that! lol


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## mrrrosswife

What worked for us was redirecting and putting a toy in Ziggy's mouth. Or I would sometimes put my whole hand in his mouth... It sounds a little crazy but it worked! I would also leave the room for 30 seconds or so and he would snap out of the "sharkies", but not always.
I came to notice a pattern about those shark attacks : it would happen when Ziggy was getting too tired, wanted to go potty, or was hungry... Knowing this helped me being a little bit more prepared.
But I was very happy when Ziggy outgrew this phase!!! Can't remember exactly when, probably after he was done teething.


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## Spy Car

The problem I have with redirecting biting to a toy (only) is that the dog gets no feed-back from the toy that their bites hurt. Yes, it is fine sometimes, and puppies should have safe chews to work out the teething impulses.

But allowing them to "bite" on hands (with their lips gently folded into their mouths, as I advocate) provides a natural feedback mechanism that they control. Through this process a puppy learns its teeth are sharp and biting hurts. It is a humane and effective way to teach an important lesson. Far better IMO than a simple redirect, which does not teach the vital lessons that lead directly to developing a soft-mouth.

Bill


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## mswhipple

I think you're on to something there, Bill.  That feedback is critical. We humans have created the "problem" of puppy biting by removing puppies from mom and littermates a little too soon. If puppy is left with his original family long enough, the puppies teach bite inhibition to one another. ;D


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## R E McCraith

Spy - I use the same method when hand feeding a pup - frozen Kongs filled with pumpkin or sweet potatoes is a great help for teething pups - but when it comes 2 shark attacks - rather correct 1-3 times & put a end 2 it !!!!!!!


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## Spy Car

R said:


> Spy - I use the same method when hand feeding a pup - frozen Kongs filled with pumpkin or sweet potatoes is a great help for teething pups - but when it comes 2 shark attacks - rather correct 1-3 times & put a end 2 it !!!!!!!


We each have our methods (and I also hand feed), I just don't feel "ending it" via a strong correction is as beneficial as letting the natural consequences of biting play out using the "puppy bites cheeks" method. Like (only) redirecting, "ending it" via a big correction short-cuts the lesson learning IMO. I'd rather have my hand in the pups mouth, and have the pup learn that hand needs to be treated gently, rather than terminating the behavior abruptly. I have no doubt one could "stop it," but one day a dog trained that way might "snap," because they've not really learned the lesson of being soft mouthed (unless you're lucky).

Using the method I advocate I have 100% confidence in my V having a soft mouth with me or other people. It is a behavior that has been trained and engrained.

Bill


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## Tillyfizz

We have a 10 week old VERY bitey Tilly. Having done some reading around the subject I have today been trying the loud "OW" plus turn away and ignore for 30 seconds. It seems to be working. Just need to get the kids to do the same now and hopefully we'll fix the problem. Good luck!


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## Spy Car

Tillyfizz said:


> We have a 10 week old VERY bitey Tilly. Having done some reading around the subject I have today been trying the loud "OW" plus turn away and ignore for 30 seconds. It seems to be working. Just need to get the kids to do the same now and hopefully we'll fix the problem. Good luck!


I know this is common internet advice, but I wouldn't advise following it.

Bill


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## Watson

Spy said:


> Tillyfizz said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have a 10 week old VERY bitey Tilly. Having done some reading around the subject I have today been trying the loud "OW" plus turn away and ignore for 30 seconds. It seems to be working. Just need to get the kids to do the same now and hopefully we'll fix the problem. Good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> I know this is common internet advice, but I wouldn't advise following it.
> 
> Bill
Click to expand...


That is exactly how bite inhibition is taught... you let the pup know that his teeth on your skin hurts with a loud OUCH/OW, then walk away. You don't teach your puppy bite inhibition by putting his jowls in his own mouth and letting him apply pressure, because his jowls are not human skin. 

Here is an article on how to properly teach bite inhibition:


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## Spy Car

Watson said:


> That is exactly how bite inhibition is taught... you let the pup know that his teeth on your skin hurts with a loud OUCH/OW, then walk away. You don't teach your puppy bite inhibition by putting his jowls in his own mouth and letting him apply pressure, because his jowls are not human skin.
> 
> Here is an article on how to properly teach bite inhibition:


Did you read the article? Because it disagrees with you, and affirms what I said. 

One does best by teaching the dog to develop a soft mouth, and this is NOT accomplished by either stopping the behavior using the "big guns" of harsh punishment (which I know you don't advocate), nor by rewarding the dog with a reaction (as even a big "Ow!" is a reaction/reward). Better to teach the dog to use its mouth/teeth gently with no drama.

The article is spot-on when it says: 

*When teaching these behaviors, put your hands in your dog's mouth all the time. Get him used to your being there.*

This is the correct way to teach bite inhibition. Get your hand into the pup's mouth. If they bite, let it be on their own lip-flaps. This should be done gently (no pressure from owner) and the pup learns by cause and effect.

The Ow! method does not teach bite inhibition aka actively teaching the puppy to develop a soft mouth.

*If you teach your dog bite inhibition that training will carry over even if he is later in a position where he feels forced to bite.*

The article has this correct a well. The idea is NOT to stop the short term biting behavior, it is to train a puppy for its lifetime. 

Bill


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## Watson

I did read the article... did you?? Nowhere in it does it tell you to put the puppy's jowls in it's own mouth. 

Directly from the article: "None of these stages require anything more aversive than time outs or withdrawal of attention." 

Either way, that's the method I used and would use in the future. I would not let the puppy feel it's own bite as a way of getting them to stop biting. You want to teach them that human skin is fragile, and yes I agree, learning bite inhibition does involve biting, just not the puppy's own "lips".


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## Spy Car

Watson said:


> I did read the article... did you?? Nowhere in it does it tell you to put the puppy's jowls in it's own mouth.
> 
> Directly from the article: "None of these stages require anything more aversive than time outs or withdrawal of attention."
> 
> Either way, that's the method I used and would use in the future. I would not let the puppy feel it's own bite as a way of getting them to stop biting. You want to teach them that human skin is fragile, and yes I agree, learning bite inhibition does involve biting, just not the puppy's own "lips".


One doesn't let the puppy feel its own bites to STOP the biting, one does so to decrease the intensity of the biting, which is exactly in line with best training practices. 

*If you decrease the frequency first, the dog won't learn to soften his bite*

It does not involve "drama" which the "Ow!" methods does. The author suggests one train with:* as little fuss or attention as possible. Even negative attention is attention.* That is also correct.

Bill


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## chilithevizsla

Spy said:


> *If you teach your dog bite inhibition that training will carry over even if he is later in a position where he feels forced to bite.*
> Bill


This won't be the case, if the dog feels forced to bite as a response to something it doesn't like then it's fueled by adrenaline and stress, it isn't going to be able to control how hard it bites.


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## Spy Car

chilithevizsla said:


> Spy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *If you teach your dog bite inhibition that training will carry over even if he is later in a position where he feels forced to bite.*
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> This won't be the case, if the dog feels forced to bite as a response to something it doesn't like then it's fueled by adrenaline and stress, it isn't going to be able to control how hard it bites.
Click to expand...

Depends, I suppose by what one means by a dog "feeling forced to bite." 

If, for example, my dog saw me violently attacked by ruffians would I be suprised if he came to my aid? Not particularly. 

But Is there a ghost of a chance he'd bite me, a member of my family, or a stranger or child? No. He is well trained in that regard. Teaching bite inhibition is important. The biting in the puppy stage is not something to short-cut by either harsh corrections designed to shock the puppy into stopping all mouthing, nor is it best to dramatically yell "Ow'.

Neither of these actively teach a puppy to have a soft mouth. Where actively having ones hand inside a puppy's mouth does teach the lesson in the optimal way. This sets up the dog for ingrained life-lessons. 

Bill


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## chilithevizsla

Spy said:


> Depends, I suppose by what one means by a dog "feeling forced to bite."
> 
> If, for example, my dog saw me violently attacked by ruffians would I be suprised if he came to my aid? Not particularly.
> 
> But Is there a ghost of a chance he'd bite me, a member of my family, or a stranger or child? No. He is well trained in that regard. Teaching bite inhibition is important. The biting in the puppy stage is not something to short-cut by either harsh corrections designed to shock the puppy into stopping all mouthing, nor is it best to dramatically yell "Ow'.
> 
> Neither of these actively teach a puppy to have a soft mouth. Where actively having ones hand inside a puppy's mouth does teach the lesson in the optimal way. This sets up the dog for ingrained life-lessons.
> 
> Bill


IMO all you're doing is telling the dog mouthing you is ok as long as it's soft, that's fine if you don't mind an adult who mouths your hands in play later on but most people don't enjoy that.

Most people want to stop or redirect the biting all together, not just have a dog that bites them gently and your method isn't going to get that result.


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## Spy Car

chilithevizsla said:


> Spy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depends, I suppose by what one means by a dog "feeling forced to bite."
> 
> If, for example, my dog saw me violently attacked by ruffians would I be suprised if he came to my aid? Not particularly.
> 
> But Is there a ghost of a chance he'd bite me, a member of my family, or a stranger or child? No. He is well trained in that regard. Teaching bite inhibition is important. The biting in the puppy stage is not something to short-cut by either harsh corrections designed to shock the puppy into stopping all mouthing, nor is it best to dramatically yell "Ow'.
> 
> Neither of these actively teach a puppy to have a soft mouth. Where actively having ones hand inside a puppy's mouth does teach the lesson in the optimal way. This sets up the dog for ingrained life-lessons.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> IMO all you're doing is telling the dog mouthing you is ok as long as it's soft, that's fine if you don't mind an adult who mouths your hands in play later on but most people don't enjoy that.
> 
> Most people want to stop or redirect the biting all together, not just have a dog that bites them gently and your method isn't going to get that result.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are teaching the dog to mouth you in a soft way. That is a very good thing. Most people are wrong if they aim to stop mouthing behaviors in young puppies as they will have missed training for bite inhibition, which is something the article was spot-on about listing as the prime first stage (that ought not be missed).

Most people don't understand that developing a soft-mouth is a process. That does not make "most people" informed about the best way to train dogs. A dog that is trained in bite inhibition will mouth one gently when you left them know you're willing to rough-house, and will respect your person otherwise. They will not suddenly "snap" at an owner, family, strangers, or children as a dog who is not trained for bite inhibition (soft-mouth) very well might.

This is a very preferable level of training. It bring positive results. And is much better than the alternatives.

Bill


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## chilithevizsla

Spy said:


> chilithevizsla said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depends, I suppose by what one means by a dog "feeling forced to bite."
> 
> If, for example, my dog saw me violently attacked by ruffians would I be suprised if he came to my aid? Not particularly.
> 
> But Is there a ghost of a chance he'd bite me, a member of my family, or a stranger or child? No. He is well trained in that regard. Teaching bite inhibition is important. The biting in the puppy stage is not something to short-cut by either harsh corrections designed to shock the puppy into stopping all mouthing, nor is it best to dramatically yell "Ow'.
> 
> Neither of these actively teach a puppy to have a soft mouth. Where actively having ones hand inside a puppy's mouth does teach the lesson in the optimal way. This sets up the dog for ingrained life-lessons.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> IMO all you're doing is telling the dog mouthing you is ok as long as it's soft, that's fine if you don't mind an adult who mouths your hands in play later on but most people don't enjoy that.
> 
> Most people want to stop or redirect the biting all together, not just have a dog that bites them gently and your method isn't going to get that result.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, you are teaching the dog to mouth you in a soft way. That is a very good thing. Most people are wrong if they aim to stop mouthing behaviors in young puppies as they will have missed training for bite inhibition, which is something the article was spot-on about listing as the prime first stage (that ought not be missed).
> 
> Most people don't understand that developing a soft-mouth is a process. That does not make "most people" informed about the best way to train dogs. A dog that is trained in bite inhibition will mouth one gently when you left them know you're willing to rough-house, and will respect your person otherwise. They will not suddenly "snap" at an owner, family, strangers, or children as a dog who is not trained for bite inhibition (soft-mouth) very well might.
> 
> This is a very preferable level of training. It bring positive results. And is much better than the alternatives.
> 
> Bill
Click to expand...

Again I disagree with your last part. From what I'm reading it's like you're saying bite inhibition will stop any kind of biting in the future or at least you're saying a dog trying to defend itself is going to do so softly, I guarantee this isn't true.

I don't think it's fair to say that all people should aim for bite inhibition rather than redirecting, that's personal preference!
What if they have young kids, would it be acceptable to have a dog that rough houses? Even if the biting is gentle for you, it can be scary for your kids or ones that are visiting and they can get knocked over.

Also I agree with the other people that the dogs lip doesn't teach human inhibition. I think you'd have better luck doing the hold a treat and let them bite your hand to try and get it, if it's too rough then they don't get the treat and you withdraw the offer, if it's gentle praise and treat. You can also try smothering food on your hand and getting them to lick it.


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## R E McCraith

chilithevizsla said:


> R said:
> 
> 
> 
> chili - Chill - ? what is wrong with hand feeding the 1st 4 weeks
> 
> 
> 
> I have no problem with hand feeding, this is essentially giving treats to build a good relationship with you, your hands and your pup.
> 
> 
> 
> R said:
> 
> 
> 
> NO stress on the PUP !! less STRESS on ME !!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can assure you picking up a puppy by the scruff when you're frustrated is stressful, especially if you're not used to doing it and have to struggle to get there, hence why I said it can be slow delivery.
> 
> @Bob, I consider grabbing a pup by the scruff at more than a few weeks old when they're heavy harsh. Also placing them in a crate to be stressed about the separation when the whole idea of the modern crate is for the pup to feel secure when separated from you, counter productive to say the least.
> 
> How much experience do you have around REMs dogs? I know I have none and can't judge whether this kind of treatment has caused behavioral fall outs or not. What I can say is studies and behaviorists have proven that it can. Even if it hasn't, like another user wrote, what works for their pups might not work for yours.
> 
> I'm not disputing that old school methods work, they do work in the sense that they get results but they're risky because they have a high rate of behavioral fall out. Positive methods when done right have none of these risks and create a stronger relationship so why would we not use them?
> 
> I've explained why my methods are best, now it's your turn I guess?
Click to expand...


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## Pecan_and_BB

We just got Pecan through the worst of her hard biting on skin (3 weeks in now since we got her). This is what worked for us and of course might not work for everyone:

1 - when she is calm and sitting with us, we put our hands and faces all around her mouth and if she licks or stays in a soft mouth, we praise highly and reward occasionally with a high-reward treat (no toy, food treat whichever you give her and she values highest)

2 - if she bites down, we have been saying ow, not like another puppy would but like a human would, and then we withdraw and put our hands close to our own mouths like we are licking our wounds which we call "that hurts". If she is still in a calm state and she then licks our hands, we praise her. If she doesn't start licking and it starts to escalate into additional biting after we display "that hurts", everything stops, we pick her up and put her in a 30sec timeout (our timeout is a leash on a door knob in a different room, we do not use her crate). This technique has worked well and licking/open mouth when she's calm has developed very quickly.

3 - Now when she is in that 'witching hour' mode. Yes she shark attacks us, the cats and anything that moves. My wife and I then suit up (thick socks, jeans and shoes and each carry one of her top two toys at all times). We believe in not discouraging the high energy with timeouts, so we have used redirection to her toys. We purposely stay standing with her toy hidden and wait for the shark attack on our feet, we then use the highest value food treat, put it right in front of her nose and as soon as she lets go (timing is crucial) we say "OFF", give her the high reward treat, and then pull out her favorite toy and play with her for a minute. We then use a distraction to get her off the toy, and repeat the process. This has had good results as within the first week she learnt it's OK to be crazy, but just be crazy with the right things.

She is still attacking our shoes and ankles and cats, but "OFF" gets her to release from the shark attack on us and she then searches out her favorite toy of the day to maul instead. The obvious goal is to have her search out the toy first and then bring it over to involve us in her fun.


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## Spy Car

When a young puppy is biting down too hard the best move is not to withdraw ones hand, but rather to insert ones hand more deeply into their mouth. This makes the "biting" mildly uncomfortable. 

There should be no drama in this move, and it should be momentary. As they release pressure (which they will) the hand should back out to the point it started. 

Saying "Ow" and removing the hand creates "drama," and rewards the puppy. The learn they have power over you. If you leave your hand in their mouth and maintain nonchalance the optimal type of soft mouth develops.

Ones long term goal should be to be able to place ones hand inside a dog's mouth at any time and have the dog accepting of that hand. Starting in puppyhood is essential. modifying the method by not removing ones hand or saying "Ow" would give you more optimal results.

Bill


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## MrsF

My girl is 4 months now. From the day I got her I made a point in being consistent with biting. I'd say "No bite" in a stern voice. Followed by grabbing the nearest toy and saying "Bite your toy" in a gentle voice. Worked a charm


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## killmodell

That's what we used was the 'Get a toy' method. It has worked pretty well.

Ginger is 10 months old now and she still occasionally gets that 'look' in her eye, but the sharkies are way down. V love is way up.


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## crwobrien

I have to say, I clicked on this thread with hope and excitement thinking this would be a possible solution to the problems of our biting Vizsla pup.

Alas, it seems like a classroom debate about who's training their V better. 

Back to the drawing board.


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## mswhipple

All you really have to do is survive this "puppy biting" period. It's normal. The "problem" will resolve itself with the passage of time.


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## Spy Car

The biting period will pass, the question is will you use this developmental period to train for bite inhibition and a soft mouth, or will you miss the window?

There are good and bad answers to the question.

Bill


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