# UPDATE--Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming--



## FLgatorgirl

This is going to be long, sorry I am a mess of emotion right now. I recently found and joined the forum so here is a brief history on our 9 month old girl. She was personality tested as a puppy to be very beta, mellow and easy going which is what we wanted. She was awesome the first 48 hours and then the shark attacks, etc started. Lots of general puppy insanity which in reading the forums was mostly normal V stuff although I wish we would have handled it better. She probably got away with too much for too long because nothing seemed to stop her. When she was around maybe 10 weeks old, she was resource guarding anything she "found"--sticks, scraps of paper, etc. We had never seen that in a young puppy, snarling, snapping, stiff body, etc. or really in any of our dogs in the past. My guess is I contributed to this because as a worried mom I was taking stuff from her constantly and not trading for anything better. 

We finally got hooked up with a great trainer around maybe the three or four month stage. We were exasperated at the out of control red demon on our hands and really questioning if we made a mistake. She was sweet as pie one second and drawing blood the next. We worked on basic obedience (we had already done a lot of people and dog socializing) and on our leadership skills. Things improved each week and we also got into a good regular schedule of exercise, training and play dates. Wearing her butt out helped a lot. The resource guarding was still a challenge, but we were mostly only getting occasional growls, but not bites anymore. 

At some point in the last few months, the resource guarding became about bully sticks, rawhides, antlers and the couch. Sticks and such she will mostly readily give up and is pretty good on the leave it command if I can catch things early enough. We stopped couchtime entirely because she snarled at my husband for walking past her while she was with me on the couch. We took away all toys and all chewie type things. She can only have a chewy if she waits in sit or down, I release her and then I hold the chewy. Two nights ago I was sitting on the floor with her (trainer has said never on the floor again) holding her antler. She had stopped chewing a few minutes prior. My husband got up to walk across the room and she went after him like she was going to rip his hand off. He scolded her by yelling (we try to never yell) and she did it a second time. He sent her to her crate for timeout. A few minutes later I realized she had her leash still on, so I opened the crate to unleash her and she growled. I firmly said, "no mam" and went to unhook the collar and she bit me. This is her first bite over something like this since she got her adult teeth. It was not a bad bite, but any bite is unacceptable. 

The breeder originally wanted to take her back for an undetermined period of time and work with her and put her in with the pack. She has only had one other dog with these issues in I think 15 years and it was a different breeding. She has had one or two other dogs with general behavior issues over the years and taking them back for a little while has resolved the problem. I was not thrilled and sending her out of state, but ready to do it. Fast forward to today. She spoke with a animal behaviorist and the sire's breeder and they all believe the best thing is to re-home the puppy to someone with strong V experience. They think the dog is confused and the very random lashing out is her trying to be alpha. Our trainer also thinks this might be best because she believes we have gone above and beyond with training, yet we are good for a few months and then have some kind of big episode like this. Everyone said maybe it is not the right dog for us.

I have been crying for hours. We love this dog, but we just don't know what to do. I feel like we are giving up. Outside of still being young, she is great 98% of the time. She loves everyone and all other dogs. No aggression whatsoever although she can be obnoxious sometimes. She is spot on perfect for the trainer. I know we have made mistakes and are still learning as well. She gets a ton of exercise including mental stuff, we practice NILF as consistently as possible and we are still working on our leadership skills but this all leaves me wondering if we are never going to be what Ellie needs. Help please :'(.


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## adrino

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

I'm sorry to hear your troubles with your V. :'(

Nobody can give you the right answer here. It has to be you and your husband to make this decision. You must sit down and think through wether you can cope with this for the rest of Ellie's life. Obviously you've done the right thing and sought help and you've also spoken to your breeder who it seems has been more than helpful about it. For now it only happened around your house and with you but what if it happens to somebody else? You can't leave her with anyone else because she can't be trusted. 
Be honest with yourself and decide accordingly. She's still young and could be rehomed more easily with her still being a pup there's plenty more time to train her. 

If you think you're out of your league now than it will only get harder and worse. 

Its tough and I feel for you. We had and still have some issues with resource guarding plus some recent fearful aggression made our walks pretty challenging. 

I wish you all the best and hope you'll find some piece and can make the right decision.


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## dmak

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

I've said this a few times today and will continue saying it, so don't get offended; here to help. Your dog is not the problem. Its hard to hear, but your dog is a dog, not a human so it is now time to dehumanize her. Dogs live in the now, not the past. Leave your feelings of sadness or sorrow for your pup out the door, you don't need those feelings as they will only continue to cause negative reaction. Any, I mean ANY feelings (not actions, just inner feelings) of fear, anxiety, nervousness, sadness, pity, will be translated by your pup as inadequacies. Sensing your inadequacy, she is attempting to fill the role of dominant alpha (even though she may not want to be alpha) She needs a strong willed, level headed, calm and controlled alpha pack leader in her life. You need to totally change the way you handle your dog. Obedience training and socializing are key elements, but the core, root system that will balance your dog is the need of a strong alpha (that's you and your man) no need for yelling. 

I know some don't like him, but you should watch Caesar Milan,s series, "The Best of the Dog Whisperer" its on Netflix. Being a lifelong gundog owner, I thought I understood dogs pretty well. After watching his show and reading his books, I can honestly say I learned A TON of stuff that has drastically changed the way I handle dogs, and its been for the better. If you watch it with an open mind and heart, willing to affect change in your life, I know you will be able to make the necessary changes to be able to peacefully live with your little red devil

Please keep is updated on your progress/decision.


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## datacan

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Keep practicing NILF

Also get a crate for her!

Go on to www.leerburg.com they have lots of resources.


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## redbirddog

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Flgatorgirl.

Did you know you were getting a high-powered hunting dog when you got her? You might have got the Hungarian Pointer that requires a owner that will get her out in the field and direct her in born drives towards what makes her happy.

Happiness is the attainment of goals by overcoming known obstacles. This goes for dogs and people. A happy dog has goals. A human is happy when he/she achieves goals.

What is Ellie's goals to make her happy? Dogs love to please us. What goals can she do to please you?

What if you got into the field with her and put her on birds? A trainer that will work with you to get her to achieve goals?

Guess those are my ideas and questions. Vizslas are not pets. They are lifestyles. 

RBD


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## datacan

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

dmak... CM on South Park, also...

https://www.google.ca/search?num=50...8.769.6j2.8.0...0.0...1c.1.8.serp.nkBfaM2ieiE


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## luv2laugh

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Oh, this breaks my heart. I'm not going to be able to tell you what to do, especially after not seeing your pup. I'm so sorry that you are going through this. 

If it were me, I don't know what I would do. To be completely honest, the dog being confused and random lashing out sounds weird to me. It was my understanding (although I could be completely wrong) that resource guarding was mainly genetic. A dog who was personality tested to be mellow, yet is trying to be alpha, doesn't work in my mind. I would need someone to explain it better. What are your current trainer's qualifications? I would get an animal behaviorist to actually observe your pup. Also an animal behaviorist giving an opinion without observing the behavior signals red flags to me. As a child behaviorist, I know you have to observe and assess to get a good idea of behavior, especially when their main solution is to get someone who is experienced with V's, essentially be better at leadership than current ownership. I would want to know that the puppy's life would actually be better with them. 

Now, those would be the things I would do if my heart was telling me to keep the puppy and I wanted to put more work in than I already had. 

If I felt like everyone was right and despite my efforts I couldn't provide the strong leadership required, I would probably give up the pup. If I felt like even if the problem was genetic, I couldn't have a dangerous dog in my house or take precautions such as muzzling/avoiding certain situations, I would give the pup up now when still young. My big fear would be that she would bite someone, be labeled dangerous and need to be put to sleep. 

I'm so sorry for your predicament. It sounds like you have done so many things right. Hopefully some owners with resource guarding experience will post. :'(


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## Ozkar

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

I am sorry to say this, but i think you lack the knowledge and experience to deal with a v pup and I believe the breeder is making good sense. You need to think about what is good for the pup and not you at this point. I would have her re homed with someone who knows the breed and can handle her as reading your posts suggests that you are not able to. I know this sounds awfully cold and that you have grown to love her. But, if you truly do love her, you will help place her into a home where she will be trained by a person who can handle her. It's best for the dog.


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## dmak

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Data - that south park episode is what caused me to watch CM. I figured if he can fix cartman, he can fix anyone. Funny as ****


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## R E McCraith

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Bless us VVith your Grace - Lead Us to Place - VVere VVe'll -V safe - unlike children your V will neVer grow up and leave home - if you want to keep the pup ? find a trainer that knows V's and adopt your life style to the PUP !!! if not !!!!!!!! re home him - but put more time in finding him a home that is right than making excuses !!!


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## SteelCityDozer

*Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

My feelings are that it really depends on the lengths you are willing to go. You've done a lot already but are you prepared to do more. This pup may not be the family dog you envisioned, running and playing and cuddling with anyone. Instead she may need to be isolated in most situations, you will not take her to family gatherings, you will not let her off leash unless in the middle of nowhere, you may have muzzle her at times. And this may be a stressful for you for the rest of her life 12-14 years. And I'm not sure where you are in life , ie kids, but if you're planning a family she may not be apart of it. If she's unpredictable you can't mix that with kids. I can only imagine how you must feel. But please remember the decision has to be best for ALL involved.


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## RubyRoo

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

So sorry you are going through this. I wish I could take Ellie in as I don't live to far from you. We are just not ready yet to take on another V just yet.

Hang in there!


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## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Thanks to everyone for input and I am hoping someone who has really dealt with resource guarding will chime in. My husband and I both believe the resource guarding is the heart of the issue, not that she is necessarily trying to be dominant or alpha. She does not in our eyes show dominance in other ways. She is generally respectful of everyone, listens to commands (not 100%, but she is still a puppy), comes over and puts her head down and ears back to be petted. You can rub her belly and she will lay down for you on her back to get snuggles. Someone mentioned she might not ever be a family dog, running/playing/snuggly. That is exactly what she is with the exception of the resource issue that keeps randomly popping up. Everyone who meets her goes nuts over how sweet she is, she really loves other people and other dogs. We don't believe she is aggressive or bad. 

RBD, yes we thought we knew what we were getting into. Our breeder has show dog stock, not hunting stock and knew what we were looking for. We met another of her pups at two years old and it was exactly what we wanted. We were not expecting a couch potato and we have very much changed our lifestyle to practically revolve around her exercise, training, brain games and play time. I don't know that we have the ability right now to get her on birds, but we do play lots of "find it" games on our three wooded acres. 

Luv2laugh, I am not sure about the genetics issue, but neither sire nor dam have this issue and none of the pups from the litter have it either. I did read in two places that it is not thought to be a dominance or aggression issue. Our current trainer has 30+ years working with dogs including police, shutzhund, obedience, freestyle, aggression issues etc. She is very Cesaresque in her methods, has dogs with national titles and is highly respected in our area. I believe she has a degree in child psychology. She does not have much V specific experience and some of the things she has shown us did not work on Ellie I guess because of the soft temperament. We train at her facility and she only came to our house once to observe when the guarding first started months ago because of course there was no guarding at her place. I can see now that we will need someone here. I agree about the animal behaviorist making a call with second hand information and without seeing the dog. 

I am considering going back to plan "A" of the breeder taking her back for a few weeks and working with her in the pack. Maybe it would give us all a clean slate to go forward from. It would also give the breeder a better chance to analyze what is happening and what would be best. While she is gone, I can find out what we need to do differently to make this work. I don't think we are ready to give up yet. If it truly is something beyond just resource guarding (which I would think can be fixed), we will let the breeder find her a more suitable home.


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## RubyRoo

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Keep me posted on your progress. Breaks my heart to hear you going through this. Your breeder will know what is right. If you are ever in the Tampa area, I would love to get our girls together. 

Ruby definitely had a few resource guarding issues with the couch early on during puppyhood and remember writing on this forum about it. We worked with her on it for quite some time and now have no issues. She really grew up a lot after she turned a year old.


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## luv2laugh

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

That sounds like a good plan to me for the interim. 

When I meant genetic, I guess I mean more so inborn/innate. Even if due to an abnormality, not due to bad breeding. It sounds like your breeder is very responsible. I would do a search on resource guarding and PM some of the members. I can't remember the usernames right now, but I know I have seen posts on it in the past. 

It amazes me that the breeder, breeder of the sire and animal behaviorist (as well as some on the board) think they can diagnose the problem as poor training/leadership without observing your interactions or hearing much about them except in one circumstance. Keep us updated on your journey. Best of luck!!!


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## v-john

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Luv2Laugh, I agree with you. It is very difficult to diagnose via message boards and such as we simply cannot see what is occuring, how the dog is reacting, and how the owners are reacting and such. 

But here are some things to me, that in this nice lady's posts have kind of thrown up a red flag for me personally. We all have different styles and such, but... 

And please, this is just my opinion, and not an attack on Ms. Gatorgirl. She seems very nice. Too nice. 

"My guess is I contributed to this because as a worried mom I was taking stuff from her constantly and not trading for anything better." - As the Alpha, you shouldn't worry about trading. You should be able to take things from the dog and that's the end of it. Now, I don't recommend just snatching things away. I take them, and either.... Say nothing. Or praise the dog for "bringing it to me." When a dog retrieves a stick, bird, or whatever, I take it and praise the dog. The timing of the praise will very important however. But at the same time, when I tell a dog to move off of the couch, or where I am sitting I TELL them to move. It seems, every time, I get up, a dog needs to occupy the space that I was just in, but it's no problem as when I return, I tell the dog to move and find my spot on the couch, nice and warm.  Just remember, you are TELLING the dog to do something, not ASKING it. 

"He scolded her by yelling (we try to never yell) and she did it a second time." - Sometimes to make a correction, you have to yell. How are you currently making corrections? 

"He sent her to her crate for timeout." - By the time the dog has been sent to "time out" I really doubt that the dog is understanding WHY she is being sent there. I honestly don't believe that time out works on dogs. Timing of corrections is SO important. It has to be quick. Dogs, as we know don't understand and cannot reason why they are being put in "time out" by that point. 

"comes over and puts her head down and ears back to be petted." - Some folks would say that she is controlling the petting as such because when she wants to be petted, she comes to YOU. She is deciding when she is going to be petted. 

I guess, it is easy to say this that and the other, sitting behind a keyboard and not seeing it. Thus, I personally don't feel I can be justified to tell you what to do. I can state the obvious though, that if something doesn't change, whether it's the dog's situation or a change in you, though, things could end up very ugly. What happens if she bites a child who walks by "her spot" on the sofa, rather then your hubby? 
I wish you all the best. Please keep us posted and this board is very good about support, and help. I can see that from my short time on here.


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## MilesMom

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

I think your plan sounds good. Hopefully if the breeder is able to deal with some of the behavioral issues, perhaps he or she would also be willing to work with you in your home, as she may be territorial of "her" couch and "her" bowl once she returns home, and help you guys work through these behavioral issues. 

I am sure this must be very difficult and I wish you the best of luck!


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## dmak

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Some pretty sound info about resource guarding here. Maybe this can help


http://www.dogforum.com/dog-behavior/resource-guarding-causes-prevention-modification-7511/


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## adrino

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Another page on resource guarding

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/resource-guarding/

I have also bought a book that's been suggested on that page and it has a good step by step instruction on how to deal with resource guarding. “Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs.”

Elza was guarding her food for a while but with those steps we have managed to train that out of her. She still has occasional moments in her bed guarding a random toy. We need to work on that more. It is not impossible but a very slow process and there are times when you think you haven't made any progress. If so it means you've gone too fast. Take a step back and work on it slower. 

---------

Just found my initial website that I've used for information and resources. At the bottom of that website there are many more info that the writer used herself. That's where I found more info myself and a method that worked with Elza. 

http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/resource-guarding-dog.aspx

Hope this will help you and give you more insight on guarding.
Good luck and keep us posted.


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## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

VJohn, I did not take anything as an attack, I know everyone is trying to help and it is impossible to diagnose from behind a keyboard. It is a complex situation. And I probably am too nice sometimes : which might be part of the problem. In regards to what I said about trading, I did not word that well. When we first got her, I was just snatching stuff out of her mouth because I was concerned at things in the yard harming her. I did not go about it correctly. The trading did not come into play until later once the guarding started. Trading is recommended in most everything I read and was really the only thing that worked once she started guarding. In regards to your other comments, they contradict some of what our breeder says/suggests, but then many of her thoughts contradict our trainer. It is difficult to sort everything out and I guess different dogs require different tactics. 

Thank you everyone for the resource guarding links. These recent more severe reactions from Ellie have coincided with her being much more fearful of a number of things and particularly sounds. I noticed one of the links made that connection. 

Ellie will arrive at the breeders in Texas on Saturday and we will see how it goes from there. We are in Florida, so the breeder cannot work with us here. However, we will take our RV to pick Ellie up and work with her in there. The breeder has said she will keep her as long as necessary to be certain the issue is resolved. It is possible that she will determine Ellie is not the right dog for us, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it. Fingers crossed this all works out for the best and we can deal with whatever the outcome is.


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## Ozkar

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Flgatorgirl, I admire the lengths you are going to to try and keep your pup and fix the problem. I do however think that reading between the lines, your naturally soft nature is part of the cause. I kind of posted what I wrote to see if I could fire you up, get you emotional and maybe get you to dig your heels in. Which it appears you are attempting to do. Bully for you and I hope YOU can alter YOUR approach to get pup to a point where YOU have the lead roll in this play!  

One thing I will leave you to ponder.............. a good leader will never let his/her soldiers see the fear in his/her eyes...............


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## Veebers

*Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Just caught up on this, I wish you luck. Keep us posted.


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## redbirddog

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*



> The breeder has said she will keep her as long as necessary to be certain the issue is resolved. It is possible that she will determine Ellie is not the right dog for us, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it.


Just want to commend your breeder for doing what is right. Reading the steps she is wanting to do to make sure the pup has a good opportunity to succeed in life gives one the understanding that this is what responsible hobby breeding is all about. 

Sometimes the pair (human and dog) just isn't right. Unlike the commercial breeder that would take your money and wish you good luck and close the door on your problems, she is working hard on a solution.

To all the hobby breeders out there or to the puppy buyers looking for a breeder, this is a very good thread.

Good luck Flgatorgirl. You are trying your darndest to make it work and thanks for sharing your adventure. Things will work out for the best because both you love and the breeder love the dog.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/07/dont-support-backyard-breed.html

RBD


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## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Thanks so much everyone, I truly appreciate the support and advice. Our breeder is amazing and I know she is determined to help us through this and find the best possible outcome for everyone. She just does not encounter these types of problems with her dogs and wants to sort it out. I think the break will be really good and we can regroup at a different level when Ellie returns. We will stay in Houston and work with the breeder for as long as needed when we pick Ellie up to be sure OUR behaviors are what they need to be for the dog. There is no question she is a great girl, something has just gone sideways somewhere and we need to fix it before it escalates further. 

We are headed to the vet this morning for her flight certificate. It is going to be really hard for me to put her on a plane tomorrow, but it has to be done.


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## v-john

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*



FLgatorgirl said:


> In regards to your other comments, they contradict some of what our breeder says/suggests, but then many of her thoughts contradict our trainer. It is difficult to sort everything out and I guess different dogs require different tactics.


You are 100% right! Everyone has different "methods" and goes about them differently. The trick, like you said, is to figure out what works for you and the dog. 
I learned much of what I know from Meghan Tallman, my rescue coordinator/mentor. She's been in the rescue business for a very long time and her family was largely responsible for bringing the first registered vizslas to the US. It's her phrase "Are you TELLING the dog to something, or ASKING the dog to do something?" 

The other guys I learned much about is Maurice Lindley and Dave Jones. How timing and the correction are so crucial. While they are birddog trainers, much of what they preach can translate to manners in the house. 

The bottom line is finding what works for you and being consistent and fair to the dog. I commend you for doing so much, and going to so much effort with this dog. It is very clear you love her very much, and are willing to go to great lengths to do what is right by that dog, and for that, I tip my hat to you. I've seen a lot of dogs surrendered for much less. 

And like the others said, Kudos to your breeder as well for sticking by you, helping you and willing to go the extra mile in this case. I wish you the best of luck, and please keep us posted.


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## jld640

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Best of luck!


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## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming (Update)*

Sorry for the delay, we went out of town right when Ellie left and were without internet access for two weeks. 

The breeder's analysis is that Ellie had become a fearful girl and that the resource guarding was part of the fear issue. We noticed she had recently become more fearful of noises, loud voices, the vet and was somewhat hand shy (she has NEVER been hit) leading up to the growling and snapping event. However, having not dealt with this in a dog before (and she was normal probably 98% of the time), we did not understand the situation on our own. Although I hated doing it, I am glad she went to the breeder and we have an idea how to tackle the problem. As many of you stated, trying to diagnose by web, phone or even the trainer who only sees her for an hour was not the right thing to do. 

The good news is this is not an aggression issue or even a dominance issue. The breeder sees neither of those in the dog at all, although she mentioned she can be stubborn at times and is smart as a whip. The breeder has worked with Ellie daily on the resource guarding as well as the fear issues and has made tremendous progress. We will be going to pick her up this coming weekend. 

Now that we better understand the problem, we as well as the breeder are confident we can continue to work with Ellie and she will be an awesome dog. Luckily, she is still young and learns very quickly. We understand some things we will need to do differently and will work with the breeder on training when we pick Ellie up. 

Looking back I can see mistakes that were made based on what we now know with Ellie having an extra soft temperament. Some mistakes were our own, but some were based on information from our trainer . The good news is she is going to be fine and she is coming home!! We have missed her terribly and the first week of not knowing if she was coming home was gut wrenching.


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## VictoriaW

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Kudos to your breeder for caring so much & trying so hard!


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## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Yep, we are super lucky. She is an awesome breeder and just all around wonderful lady. She cares about her pups as if they were her children and takes the responsibility for bringing them into this world very seriously.


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## BlueandMac

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Such wonderful news! So happy for you - and Ellie! Your (and your breeders) dedication and willingness to work through everything is so very commendable! I can only imagine how wonderful this weekend will be for all of you. Cheers!


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## dmak

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Gatorgirl - I'm very happy for yall. If you don't mind me asking, what are some of the methods your breeder has been using to help with the fearfulness and resource guarding? What did she suggest you do to help correct and reinforce? 8 personally haven't had to deal with the issue, but I'm sure there are readers that could greatly benefit from your ordeal


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## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

With the resource guarding, some of what she has done is give her dozens at a time of whatever it is she was guarding and let her have them without being disturbed. This was so she would see the item was not scarce. She then practiced trading up for something better. No more growling and she is willingly trading, although some items she will only trade for--not just give up, but it is a start. 

On the hand shyness, she is hiding an special treat in her hand and rushing up to the dog with fast hand movements. After a few days, Ellie related fast hands to something good. 

I know with some of the other fearfulness like noises, she has just given Ellie reassurance that it is okay with lots of eye contact and comforting words or a nuzzle to the chest. She is a firm believer in this with young dogs and says it has always worked for her. The thought is if they know you will comfort and protect them, they will become less fearful because they know you will handle whatever the scary thing is. 

I am sure there is much more we will learn when we go to pick Ellie up this weekend. I will post when we get back.


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## MilesMom

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

What good news!!! Miles was assessed as fearful a few months back and new training techniques really helped us. Very happy for you!


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## purple_falafel

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Cesar Milan dealt with a V who resource guarded and was fearful! Just saying, his show is totally awesome and I love watching it. A great resource to watch just to remind yourself on how to be a strong pack leader for the furballs.


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## bjm442

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

On resource guarding. What we have done is give him the bone or toy and take it away. Make him sit then we give it back. At first he has try to bite, but now i can walk up and take anything with out a problem. We are try to show him that every thing is mine(the human) and he can have it if he is nice. I'm not going to lie I did get some nice bites at first. It will take time. We are still working on his food, and we have had him for over 3 months now.


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## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Texas bound tomorrow morning to pick up our girl! Thank goodness we were super busy since we got home Sunday because I just about can't stand it. The house is lonely without our little red piggy zooming around. 

Not looking forward to the 2000 mile round trip, but once she is in the truck, it will all be worth it. I am going to spend my time in route (when not driving) making a list of questions for the breeder.


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## simpletea

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

I've been checking this topic for an update. I hope all is well!


----------



## Rudy

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Each 200 miles or so

make the Breeders efforts work.

Pull over with a long lead rope lock your truck

and let her have some fun

there is plenty of public lands to do this

Its not about you as much know

to make a life mate its the pups

earn it back

all of it is earned not posted copies and paste off a PC by leading the pack with real life skills

each baby step she gained

reward Her with a treat and verbal and physical loves all the way home

Make the trip a learning tool

and what a effort for you and your pup ;D

thats a top shelve breeder 

A mate can only be as great

as the Pack leader


----------



## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

We ended up leaving Thursday and back home at almost midnight Saturday. Almost 2000 miles in three days. Still recovering. 

To say Ellie was happy to see us was an understatement. I thought she was going to wiggle out of her skin! She made some of the funniest noises I have ever heard. She also would not let us out of her sight. It was a great reunion, we missed her terribly and are so happy to have her home. Unfortunately, she does appear to have come down with a skin staph infection (she was covered in bumps), so the breeder sent her home with antibiotics. 

We have seen a marked improvement in her confidence level and fear issues. In fact, so far we have seen no reactions at all to things that used to scare her and she just seems much more relaxed. The breeder attributes this to some of the work she did with her, but mentioned a lot of it is probably just from being with a pack of confident dogs. 

On the resource guarding, she will trade you for whatever she has, but would get growly if the breeder tried to just take it (just chewies/bones and sometimes found items, not food). I decided to just let her chill out for awhile on this issue and build trust back up, not continually force the trading. I have given her bully sticks (one of her most guarded items) and just let her do what she wants while we ignore her. This has resulted in her wagging her tail and sitting next to me while chewing them. We don't try to pet her, talk to her or make a lot of fast movements. After the second day, she was putting her head in my lap to be petted while chewing, or dropping the stick for me to hold it. The post on page 2 from OrganicThoughts made sense to me in rebuilding the trust which I definitely think was damaged, so we are going to go at all of this in baby steps. 

It was great to know from the breeder that Ellie is definitely not trying to be dominant with us and there are no aggression issues. She said Ellie is very much Beta just as she tested as a puppy. She reminded us that because Ellie is so soft and loving, that we need to take extra care to treat her the same way for her to feel safe and secure. There are a number of things we will do differently now that we understand what we were doing wrong. We are just overjoyed to have our baby back and she seems just as happy to be home. This whole thing has been very stressful and emotional, but well worth it because I feel certain we are on track to resolve the problems before they got worse. We are forever thankful for the breeder for stepping in and offering to help Here are some pics of our happy girl from today:


----------



## mswhipple

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

I've been following this thread with interest... and this makes me sooo happy!! FLgatorgirl, I commend you for your efforts. Way to go!! ;D ;D ;D


----------



## vizslababy

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

I am so happy to read this wonderful ending to a very stressful time!  Ellie looks very very happy to be home 
and you sound ecstatic to have your baby back. So nice to hear all ended well. Now on to rebuild the trust and be happy.


----------



## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Thank you!! We really are thrilled to have our little family complete again. 

I forgot to mention in my last post regarding the resource guarding that we are also giving her multiples of things she guards so she does not feel like they are in limited supply. This was something the breeder did and suggested we do as well. We also gave her back her big basket of toys that was previously taken away when the trainer and breeder both thought it was a dominance issue going on. The breeder said because Ellie is so smart she gets bored easily and needs her toys. We all agreed taking the toys away may have been what pushed her over the top with the guarding. 

Off for a puppy play date with Ellie's best friend, Bailey the English Springer. He has been moping since she left as they play daily.


----------



## stryker

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Im glade for you. Its heart breaking when things go wrong and you dont know the reasons why. This just goes to show there are happy ending sometimes


----------



## Crimson Roll Tide

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

 So happy. Can you be specific about the "things" you were doing wrong to the "Changes" that you have made? I am very curious about this.


----------



## Főnix

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

I'm so happy for you! I think the way everything happened speaks so highly of both you and your breeder. This is a good thread for people to read when looking for a breeder— it isn't just about the pedigree, it's about having a support system that helps to ensure a happy future for you and your puppy.


----------



## Laika

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Such a pleasant contrast to "The Disposable Dog" post. So very happy everyone involved worked so hard to make this a happy ending


----------



## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Crimson Roll Tide--

Our trainer told us we were too attentive to the dog's perceived moods/needs/fears. We were told to stop talking to her so much, stop loving on her and touching her all of the time for no reason and to never, ever comfort her when she was scared. The breeder said this was wrong. Besides the fact that she is a V and not just any old dog (!), she is extra soft and responds best to a lot of affection and needs to be comforted when scared. The trainer also told us no getting on the floor with the dog, not allowed on the couch or in the bed EVER. The breeder said every V she has ever had has been allowed to do all of those things and never became possessive/dominant. Again, the breeder believes Ellie thrives on extra affection and will feel safer and more trusting. 

We were also told by our trainer to take away all of her toys/bones etc and only allow one toy at a time that we "owned". This is probably what pushed her over the top on the resource guarding. The breeder told us to give her everything back so that she knows there is an abundance and no reason to guard for scarcity. The breeder also believes that we might have pushed obedience training too hard and too fast not allowing Ellie to just be a puppy in the beginning. Additionally, she prefers we use a pinch collar for training to walk properly as opposed to leash corrections. 

What else---no more dog park. We had tons of great experiences there and a few not so great ones happening right around the time Ellie's fear got substantially worse. She was never bit or pinned, there were just some obnoxious dogs that were too much for her and she was definitely scared. 

I think what happened with Ellie was a perfect storm of sorts. She was going through a second fear stage around the same time we were trying not to love on her all of the time, kicked her off the couch and out of morning snuggles in the bed, took away her toys and chewies, she had a couple of bad days at the dog park and mommy and daddy were not there for her when things went bad. This was all following the advice we were given by a highly respected and experienced trainer who has brought many dogs to national titles. In her defense, she thought from certain things that I told her that Ellie was trying to be dominant even though she never saw it in training. Earlier in the thread, a number of other folks thought the same. It's hard to diagnose without spending substantial time with the dog in a lot of situations.

We are going to follow the breeder's advice (and what I thought was right in my heart all along) and continue to check in with her on how to handle things as they come up. Now that we understand that Ellie's reactions were out of fear and distrust, not out of aggression, it is much easier for us to react in a calmer more understanding way if she has issues. Hope this made sense and answered your question.


----------



## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Laika--

Thank you. I read the disposable dog post as well. Before we really had word from the breeder on a "diagnosis" of sorts for Ellie, my husband said--"That is our dog and we are going to get her no matter what. We will change whatever we need to about ourselves to make it work. We are not perfect and we deal with our issues, we will deal with hers". He's a good man. I had myself just totally worked up from the assorted phone calls with the trainer and breeder intimating that maybe we were not right for the dog and had somehow screwed her up. Way back in the thread, Luv2laugh pointed out that it was a red flag that assorted people were diagnosing Ellie without spending time with her and that a lot of what was happening did not make sense. That really rang true for me and helped me figure out what to do. Thank goodness someone else was thinking clearly, I was too emotional thinking we were going to loose our girl. (Bless you Luv2Laugh)


----------



## Ozkar

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

We'll done. I read your words and now see a committed dog owner willing to do the hard yards to make it work. While my post was blunt and antagonistic, I believe it served a purpose. You dug in those heels andook what you've achieved. I'm so very proud of you and your hubby. You've gone from a passenger to a driver. I'm beaming reading your posts now. I hope this is just the tip of the iceberg for you guys and Ellie.


----------



## adrino

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Thanks for sharing it all with us *FLgatorgirl*. I'm glad you're on the right track and how fantastic your breeder is. 
Your explanation was very thorough and I thank you for that, might use some of it on Elza since she's a bit fearful too. 

Wish you all the best and a more confident life for Ellie!


----------



## redbirddog

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

FLgatorgirl stated:


> In her defense, she thought from certain things that I told her that Ellie was trying to be dominant even though she never saw it in training. Earlier in the thread, a number of other folks thought the same. It's hard to diagnose without spending substantial time with the dog in a lot of situations.


I think this is the only "downside" to this, or any, forum. When getting or giving advice realize that the above statement holds true 99% of the time. 

We had an employee who was suffering the symptoms of a heart attack, in my estimation. Someone wanted to call an advice nurse on the phone. Her answer "Get him to a doctor now for a check up." Of course, you think. But most people now-a-days think answers to all questions are just a phone call or a Google search away. General rule: The internet will help as a guide, but without real world interaction, MANY wrong assumptions will be made.

Flgatorgirl. It would be fine, IMO, to give out the breeder's kennel name. I think this hobby breeder is a model for what serious Hungarian Pointer puppy people should look for in a breeder. 

Happy trails with your Ellie.

RBD


----------



## Rudy

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Very little but light weight chatter comes from any PC and some fun and humor

Some information can aid a few 

You Must get out and earn it 

and lead by examples

Ribbons pins are for humans not mates as folks have weak self pride and the 3 inch ruler

All my pointers were of legend Meat stackers Global.

None gave a darn about a trophy or more BS

They cared about the pride love care I gave them and all the folks that were rewarded for there skills.

Real hunters of all great extreme events provide there earned DNA to the 1 percent who get it

and unlike most my team travels bring lots of cash.

we will set the examples and leave the 2 dollar ribbons and pins to the kids thats humans ego's need not great dogs 

my shop got boxes of them I won

mean nothing to me

My earned Reflexions and pictures some

as those are wins none can steal or stale

My dogs know there champs

we lead by example

and as the great slim Clint would say

make my day 

Huckleberry ;D

we humble bubble gum ;D

Giving more then you get we love

but anyone thinks there earning greatness on a PC is weak

as 1 percent of the globe are 12th round finishers

I have faced the best

words mean little earned full WORK BENCHES FROM 50 YEARS OF BRING FAST BALLS 

can be a drop but never the end

each day we must press for more and keep learning as each dog creates new skill sets needed

Get remote extreme high risks and earn some

or late July turn on the telly and put your feet up and pop the popcorn

How the F did He have his only raw remote extreme TV show? 

Productive Positive sharing caring and risking all of me to set the bar extreme.

Real lessons learned.

can a class help?

reading some?

Education we must push on

the real keys massive hours of earned field events and great pride to your mate will add some tools

Ribbons due make great fire starters remote to Real pro's

Warriors ;D

Nordic no sir don't need it give it to a kid in a cancer center

Tell them they won kid of the month

that maybe a value to some ;D

Give more each day then you get

we could all use that some'

Hug yourself within

when you die you die alone nothing can go with you

I will die the valor code of the real Viking Warrior

God will side you

and some could love your reflexions you left

Most forget it all and move on real fast

Dogs will lay by your grave some will die near them

Who really cared?

know chin up mates and go make some better then great passions 

your earned examples matter

I chase the 1 percent

and please on the popcorn little butter

were a global of fatties and diseases we create due to lifestyle choices

not one diet works

lifestyle choices do 

tight is right and lean is mean ;D

Momma hear me roar'

I move glaciers

she said 

Its like chasing women on a internet dating so pathetic both sides of the ditch only thing you will find is a dented heart and a group of Blood tests there all fake.

A great lady must be earned crying, sharing, laughing losing and winning and risking the truth ;D

Carry on mates

and hate can never make you great

find one risk it"

do not group like sheep the wolf eats them


----------



## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Adrino--

Something I forgot to mention on the fear issues, we are also really watching her body language more. If she gets a little spooked we talk sweet and happy to her to get her focused on us and usually the tail starts wagging right away. We are also giving her a bit of notice before someone gets up to walk near her if she has a bully stick or chewy, that way there are no sudden movements to cause her concern. We are trying to focus on praise and positivity when she does something right and mostly ignore bad behavior although there has not really been much of any. She still has rules and boundaries to follow and is still respecting us as leaders even though she is getting so much more attention. Everything seems to be working so far as we have had no growls, no serious fear displays and she has been even more sweet and loving than before. She is more attached to us than ever, so I am hopeful we will build trust back up and a much stronger bond. 

I appreciate everyone's support and I hope this thread can help someone in the future that might be having similar issues. As RBD said, the internet can be a great tool, but can also lead to incorrect assumptions because it can never be a substitute for live observation.


----------



## kingle

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Please re-home your girl regardless of how hard it is. I have done vizsla rescue since the mid 1990's and can tell you that once she has bitten, most rescues will not take her. Since the breeder is willing to re-home her, that is your best option at this point. The trainer was not an appropriate one for her as she did not know the breed and from the sound of it used some negative training (Cesaresque I think you called it). This can cause her behavior to escalate which it apparently has. We are seeing more and more "aggression" (I hate to use that word as everyone has their own definition of what it means)
in the vizsla breed usually around resource guarding and fear. What is causing it is unknown but IMHO early spay/neuter contributes as does tight line breeding. The fact she was showing resource guarding at such an early age indicates there is some genetic component to her issues or some incident while still at the breeder's. But at this point, her issues are too much for inexperienced owners to deal with and her life could literally depend on your decision. If she bites someone outside the family, you face leagal liability and she faces potential euthanasia.


----------



## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Kingle--

Out of all due respect, WTH? Did you read the entire thread? Our breeder feels 100% confident Ellie will be fine or she would have NEVER sent her back home with us. She told us from the start she was going to do what was best for the dog and would either keep her or rehome her if she felt it was right. We understand what we need to do differently and have an open line of communication with the breeder for any concerns. We all feel certain that Ellie will get past these issues. She is young and exceptionally smart, she learns very quickly. She has already shown tremendous improvement and will continue to improve with time. 

You are entitled to your opinion, but I can't really say that I appreciate it after everything I have gone through recently. We might be inexperienced with V's, but we are not inexperienced dog owners by a long shot. If we have to, we will drive the hour each way to see an animal behaviorist, but Ellie is staying with us where she belongs.


----------



## KB87

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

FLgatorgirl, keep up the good work with your girl! You are doing what is best for her. No one can criticize that. You've put in way more work than most would be willing to do. Just continue to look on the bright side and look forward to your new and improved future with Ellie


----------



## MilesMom

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Agree. Keep up the good work. I mentioned before that our Vizsla was diagnosed with a fear based issue in January. With diligent work he's like a whole new dog. Our issues were more mild, but still important to work through. Ours were fear of strangers, loud busy places, cars, bikes, busy roads. He would shut down and lie down. In a few short months we have progressed to running in all locations without fear or lying down, he lets all well mannered strangers pet him, and we can take him to any restaurant and he lies beside us no problem. Ellie is so young big changes can be made and you have made the biggest step by initiating this change. I think you are doing great.


----------



## texasred

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

kingle 
Sounds like you have dealt with some dogs with problems.
It can make you have flash backs on key words.
Please read the full posts.
Just as all dogs are not the same, there is no one fix for every dog. Looking at the dogs actions and not taking into account what/why of its reactions, can cause more problems.


----------



## luv2laugh

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

I never responded on this, but I am so happy to hear about your success, Flgatorgirl. What a huge relief that your sweet girl gets to stay with you! I even told my husband about your story. I'm looking forward to updating him when he comes back from work. 

Congrats!!


----------



## SkyyMax

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

FLgatorgirl - I am so happy for you! 

I admire you commitment to Ellie - she is a lucky girl!!!!!


----------



## Rudy

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

This is a better then great example of real communication

We Wins

Great job and efforts by each and all


----------



## datacan

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Indeed, congrats    amazing achievement 

All the best going forward. Hard to break the bond. Success is the best type of closure in this case, IMO.


----------



## Crimson Roll Tide

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Thanks for the detail feedback. I look forward to hearing about your progress 1, 2, 3 and many more months and this will not be resolved quickly. 

So happy for you and your family. Please, even with this progress, do not let your V alone with others without your direct supervision. 

My pup has experienced this same thing, but yet it progressed to a level where I felt it not safe for my children... Thankfully, like you, I have a wonderful breeder working with us. But for the safety of my children, we no longer have full ownership of our beautiful pup.

I was able to condition the resource guarding out of all items with exception of food. 

There was one comment in this thread where they said "To rehome no matter what" Hopefully that person read the entire thread, and if you did, Are you a breeder? Also, what is experience do you have? What made you say that? I had V's growing up and decided to get a V with my family. This was the first V that I have had in 20 years and was blown away by the resource guarding. I purchase the book mine, and enlisted the help of my breeder, trainer and vet.

I think this post is truly what dog ownership is all about. Working collaboratively with fellow owners, breeder, trainers, and vets to assess the needs and environment of the dog, make changes and LEARN. 

CHEERS TO YOU FLgatorgirl !!


----------



## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Thanks again to everyone for their support and advice. Ellie is still doing great and we have not had any growling even though she has had tons of stuff she would normally guard. The only thing we have seen is a few times when we go to move across the room, she has grabbed up a bully stick etc and started to walk away with it. We just talk real sweet to her and call her and she comes over tail wagging wanted to be petted with the bone in her mouth. We are just taking everything really slow and so far so good. 

Crimson Roll Tide--

I understand what you are saying in your post. She did not get like this overnight and I don't expect it to be resolved overnight. We do not have children and Ellie has never been left alone with anyone even before the resource guarding. I went back and reread my first post and realize that it probably sounded worse than things really were because I was very upset at the escalation. Any biting that she did in the past was when she still had her puppy teeth and was a little shark, it was not malicious.

Her past resource guarding was random and amounted to some stiff body language and an occasional growl over found items (sticks, etc) if you needed to take them from her. We had actually worked through all of that and 90% of the time she would drop the item if you asked, the other 10% she would drop for a treat. She never guarded food or toys. Then came the recent escalation with bully sticks, antlers, etc. snapping at my husband and then the nip at me when I reached in her crate. It totally freaked me out as she is such a good girl and sweet as pie almost all of the time. I guess what I am trying to explain is that I don't (and the breeder agrees) see her problem as being as severe as a lot of other dogs we have read about. If we can get her confidence and trust back to normal, I believe she will be okay at some point. If she is not, we will work around it as we are now.


----------



## stryker

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Like my mom use to say a dog is always dog just be careful. The last part of your post reminds me of a battered women that try to convince themselves that it really wasn't so bad. Just make sure you do not get pollyanna with the whole thing that's all


----------



## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

Stryker,

I agree with your mom andwas brought up that a dog is always a dog and you never bother them eating or sleeping. Regarding my last post, my husband feels the exact same way, in fact he is even less worried about Ellie turning around than I am. He is a former Airborne Army Ranger, trust me there is not a shred of "pollyanna" going on there.


----------



## stryker

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming*

You are a good owner, your dog is lucky to have You are going to do just fine.

To paraphrase Rick from Casablanca "Ellie, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship."


----------



## FLgatorgirl

*Re: Breeder Suggesting We Consider Rehoming--UPDATE*

Update at just over the two month point since Ellie came home from the breeder. She did awesome for about a month and then had setbacks right after we went to a dog festival so she could do lure coursing. I think it was just entirely too much stimulation for her. She went back to being a bit guardy of high value items around us. We started to get back on track again after a week or so and then she had an incident in training. We were learning to walk gently with a pinch collar in training (on the advice of the breeder) and Ellie got freaked out when two Border Collies came in the building (she had a bad experience with a Border Collie in the past). She pulled hard when the trainer was walking her near the dogs and got pinched enough to let out a yelp. The trainer reached down to immediately switch back to the leather collar and Ellie snapped at her. I worried about the pinch from the start because of something exactly like this. It did not make sense to me that if a dog is fearful/reactive and gets scared and pulls, that getting pinched was going to help anything. In any case, no more pinch for her. Unfortunately, this incident had her very leash reactive for days, back to guarding and my husband and randomly snappy/nippy in different situations. 

After that last round of episodes, I put her back on Composure (natural calming supplement) and doubled the dosage. It was like someone flipped a switch. She was back to her sweet self and much less fearful/reactive. I also banned all high value treats (bully sticks, Himalayan Bone) for now. She gets antlers and a few other items and is fine with them, although we are still cautious with her. If she does get something that I need back or she cannot have, we trade and that is working okay for now.

We visited an animal behaviorist about a week and a half ago. She is one of only two board certified behaviorists in the entire state. I filled out a incredibly thorough and specific 9 page questionnaire weeks in advance of the appointment. The consultation was two hours long. The doctor generally observes the dog (not trying to stimulate any specific behaviors) and asks a lot of questions. This doctor has a bird dog mix and has treated Vizslas in the past. It was quite interesting. She said that for Ellie, the world is "caffeinated" and that makes a whole lot of sense to me. She said that Vizslas need to be reactive to work in the field, but right now Ellie sometimes crosses the edge to being too reactive. Additionally, she has poor impulse control (that was the official diagnosis). The doctor explained how dogs brains change between the age of one and approximately two and a half. Right now Ellie has some mis-firing of sorts going on as the more primitive part of her brain is causing her to act impulsively. As she matures, the front part of the brain will develop more and help with that issue. In the meantime, we are trying an additional supplement called "Harmonease" that helps many dogs with poor impulse control. It is an herbal remedy and also use on people although under a different name. She told us to buy it wherever we could find the best deal which was Amazon. Apparently, within two weeks, it will either work really well or not at all in which case we have another herbal remedy to try. We are also to teach her deep breathing exercises to help with calming. Apparently once dogs learn it, they like the way it feels and will do it on their own to calm themselves! There will be some additional behavior modification beyond what we already do once the medication helps her impulse control. 

The behaviorist said that Ellie is a complicated dog, but a lovely dog that is going to be just fine. She said we have done nothing wrong and Ellie is not a bad dog, she just needs a little help getting past this issue. She mentioned that the fact that Ellie recovers pretty much immediately from acting out is an excellent sign (ie: she looks like she has no idea she just snapped and her tail is wagging two seconds later after almost every incident) . She also said that Ellie is incredibly smart, very sensitive and exceptionally social. We were beyond happy to hear all of this because based on the paperwork and the behaviorist's website we were prepared for the worst. There were warnings that some dogs need to be on long term prescription drugs, not all dogs are treatable, there is no magic "cure", etc. 

Interestingly, Ellie was great the month before the doctor's appointment and then had three bad incidents the two days following the doctor's visit. I asked the doctor about it since I wondered if it was related. She said it happens in a very high percentage of dogs particularly those with impulse control issues. Problems typically last for 2-5 days after the visit. Since the same type of thing happened with the festival we took her to, I am trying to keep things pretty much to her normal schedule until we hopefully find the new medicine is working for her. She is doing well so far and we are committed to this precious girl. I know this is a long post, but maybe it helps someone else!


----------



## Rudy

No hate a bunch of (labels) like they do this all to kids

one bumped adhd' add' instead of making them learn listen and adventure not stuck on a cell phone texting

put them to work outside "addprogressivepositiverewards" ;D 

when the parent was the moron or parents 99 percent of the cases

not saying you are gator" ;D

this is why I gave up coaching the parents where pathetic in actions and reactions 

sorry little Johnny not a stud or a star 

just let him have some fun and learn how to proceed as a group

and none need much of this

few a pinch collar

use the chest and shoulder collar with a bungy forgiving band zero pulling zero destruction to the mate

I would test all the docs first in a ring of my love and pains 4x8 ;D ???

none needs drugs

they need to exceed all of natures set codes

raise the Bar

they need swimming raw open water ways raw fields birds and freedom

they settle in great expired from the adventure as the treat

over reactions create actions 

and We can post and count the dogs and breeds I worked

I did like the Gator golf cart pic ;D

LOL

again no disrespect

you sounded like my Ex"  :-X :'(

Have some fun

and tell the Doc 4x 8

will solve all these bumps and add many more ;D

Sounded like the charges were murder to me high drama seas" 

Hugs go for a relaxing love filled walk

breath within the core

lmao

1 flight over the cockconest spell check was the Reason for Freedom


----------



## datacan

I'm a little lost, what medication and for what? These are high performance, high drive dogs. 

The thunder shirt and training work well to keep them calm. Meds only lead to problems, IMO. 

Are U sure meds are the only answer?


----------



## Rudy

Better then Great Train and lead by example Tools

Data 

mines very close to yours just custom ordered

(Harley Davidson) Brand and on Rudy I use 2 large lead collars ;D


----------



## lonestar

There's really a lot here to comment on, I'm with data on this one, I'm a bit lost where to start. It's hard to tell how much of this are your expectations and how much of it is bad behavior or input by so called 'Experts'. A lot of what you're describing seems fairly common for young V's, which doesnt mean that you cant or shouldnt address it, but maybe more in context of it being unacceptable to you, rather than over pathologizing (and over treating) it.

Also, meds (be they pharmaceuticals or so called 'natural' supplements..remember, things like cocaine and nicotine and ricin would be considered the same) could be masking what could be normal reactions to stressful situations. I'd be upset if I had a bad encounter with a Border Collie and suddenly found myself next to another, too.

At this point, maybe you should bring your V to the breeder and have her stay there for a while and let him/her evaluate the behaviors in context of experience with the breed.


----------



## FLgatorgirl

Datacan--

Ellie is taking Composure which is an over the counter calming chew with active ingredients of B vitamins, L-Theanine found in green tea and colostrum (found in breast milk) complex. Our trainer was able to wean a dog off of long term Prozac with Composure. The behaviorist has added Harmonease which is also an over the counter supplement made from (plant based) traditional Chinese medicine and also used on people under a different name. A number of web sites that recommend the Thunder Shirt also have these two products listed. They are mild and do NOT change the dog's personality, energy level, etc. For Ellie, it seems to make her think and stop herself before she is about to get snappy, etc, I swear I can see it sometimes. She also pays much more attention to me and seems to learn faster. She is taking the supplements to help her with poor impulse control/over reactivity. 

We would have thought long and hard if we were told to put her on Prozac, Xanax etc. This is a situation much like my husband with high cholestoral. He could not fix it on his own with diet and exercise and it is essentially genetic for him, so the next step was to use something from the health food store.


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## datacan

*Howling Dogs Alaska*[/color]  hound harness with matching bungee cord lead. 
He will pull on command but only for an hour. Second hour he walks at heel, he's choice, I only follow. 


Lonestar, some pictures... Please post them up... We would love to see your dogs.


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## datacan

Ellie, Sammy they're names rime  need exercise, that's all. Mine is two and a half now but, what a dog he was at five months.
He was only a jumper, a runner and jumper to anyone who even gave him a look. Kinds excluded for some reason.

I took him on long walks and to this day I have not regretted the decision. Lost 16 lbs on the way... we lazed around this year and feel the difference in my gut. 

Just my thoughts, Sammy is sleeping by my side, this very moment. 

Julius


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## Rudy

Alaska so proud So Raw so free 

and spot on Dataman who can Pictures from the Lonestanger ;D

Showtime soon 8)

Bears Wolves and almost No Garbage cans

only real passions here and Grade a skills


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## texasred

I have gotten to where I try and stay away from this type of topic.
My reason is, we as a forum are not seeing the dogs actions/reactions, and the dog/owners body language. Nor are we privy their daily life.
Strong dogs know a pushover when they see one. Its not the dog or owners fault, its just a wrong match. I'm not saying the dog is strong willed, she could possibly be a fear biter. My point is we have no way of knowing.
You have the occasional dog that's just not hard wired correctly.
As hard as we try, some things cannot be fixed, only managed. 

FLgatorgirl
You have a long road ahead of you. Keep doing research, even after you think you have an answer.
Don't be surprised when you have set backs, it happens. Any new training device you decide to try, needs to be introduce in a controlled area. Most of the time inside your home, where there aren't as many distractions.


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## FLgatorgirl

TexasRed,

You are correct in that it is impossible to know what is really going on without real life observation. That is why Ellie went back to the breeder for a month and we took her to the behaviorist. Neither believe she is dominant at all, just occasionally stubborn. The breeder described her as fearful where the behaviorist says it is not that simple and is more of a "hard wiring" issue as you mentioned. (BTW, at least one other pup from this litter is exhibiting similar behavior) Both commented on how well behaved she was otherwise and that she seemed exceptionally smart. Both believe much if not all of this will resolve with maturity and behavior modification, the behaviorist is just giving us another tool (the calming supplements) to help better facilitate the learning that needs to take place. 

Additionally, I think a few of the comments yesterday were not taking into consideration the rest of this thread. I am sure it is hard to remember posts from a few months ago and I know it is a lot to go back through and read. 

I am sure we will have setbacks and there is no question that there is a big learning curve with Ellie in general, but we have faith we will work through this problem eventually. The behaviorist is a DVM, PHD and a long list of other titles and professional accomplishments. This is not her first rodeo. She was very straight forward and I don't believe for a minute she was sugar coating anything when she told us Ellie was going to be fine, it would just take time.


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## datacan

OMG, for what, this dog has been bread for the past 1000 years. LLLOL
I say you can do it no mess no meds. TEX KNOWZ 8)

I say you CAN do it. Just have to put your back into it.
Have a whole bunch of YouTube links I can send you. 
Real dog training. Not pro level just real. Most don't have the nerve you can take what you feel comfortable with. 
Gator girl I can PM them to you, if you want.

And then you can come back and teach the forum
For fun 8) 

Gotta go I'm busy


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## Happyhappyhappy

FLgatorgirl - you are such a wonderful V-mom! 

I hope to encourage you by pointing out that it appears that you have chosen a multi-modal approach (re-training, reducing triggers, and temporary supplements to facilitate change). 

I have to tell you that I spoke these words 'aloud' at many points with my V (testing me): "I don't know how this would work if I hadn't already been through dealing with kids because a young Vizsla is like a 2.5 year old boy!"

For the record, in my experience, 2.5 year old boys need lots of exercise, are stubborn, and can bite!! They jump on you, they won't share their toys, and must sometimes be lured to behave with a reward (treat/special exercise activity like bouncing on a trampoline). Then, they slowly learn that good things come to those who share 

My V is 7 months old (male, Afton). We were advised to initially hand feed him (for the first month or two) as we have small children. The kids joined in after about 1 month. We were also advised to teach a 'drop/leave it' command right away and to always demand a job/action for any food/treat/toy. This is not to say that you should have done this, too (and, indeed, you may have done so -- but just sharing as info for other new owners, since it seemed to work with us). Even so, Afton sometimes walks away when he has a special toy. He may even tote it off to his crate (off-limits to the kiddos).

You may already be doing so, but a small daily journal of feeding, potty, exercise, treat, toy routine and your notes on behavior may help. I think that it is hardest to see progress when you are so close and your journal may help you identify progress more clearly.

Blessings,
H3

Attached photo of my crew


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## lonestar

Gator girl, I know you choose not to respond to my posts, but it might be helpful if not here than at least in private to ask yourself what you were expecting with a V, and how that compares with what you got.


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## FLgatorgirl

Happyhappyhappy,

Thank you for the encouragement, I appreciate it! We don't have any children, but knowing my young niece and nephew, I am sure your comparison is very accurate. We have done most all of the things you mentioned although I might go back to doing some hand feeding as we have not done it in awhile. In retrospect, there are a number of things we should have done differently and other things we should have started much earlier. However, we are on track now and Ellie is eager to please and quick to learn.

Something I just started last week that I think will be good for her is a game with a treat bag. You fill a special Velcro closure bag that they cannot destroy with some strong smelling treats, toss it and call them back to you requesting the treat bag to be retrieved to your hand. If they bring it back, you take a treat out and feed it over the bag and then seal up and do it again. I had to put the bag on a leash so I could somewhat encourage her bringing it back, but she eventually go the hang of it. I think this will reinforce giving mom things that I really want=getting good things in return. 

Your journal idea makes sense. I was keeping track of any bad behavior for the animal behaviorist, but not anything else. I am sure it would help to see progress on paper.


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## FLgatorgirl

Lonestar,

I did not respond to your post because in all honesty based on your response I don't think you read the entire thread. Ellie has already been back to the breeder for a month for evaluation because the breeder was extremely concerned with Ellie's unusual and unacceptable behavior (these were the breeder's thoughts as well as mine). She is generally an awesome dog, but I doubt anyone on the forum would think biting and drawing blood at a year old is acceptable behavior and not just an issue with my expectations of the breed. Yes, there is some Vizsla craziness and we get that they are little red demons sometimes. I can deal with and have grown to love all of the V nuttiness, just not her snapping, growling, snarling or biting over someone walking across the room if she has a bully stick or other random similar situations. I would give anything in the world for her to be tearing up couches, humping people's legs or something else stupid instead of what we are dealing with. 

You also mentioned my use of "so called experts". Let's see, the breeder has over 20 years of experience, our trainer has well over 30 years and the animal behaviorist has a DVM and PHD from Cornell, has 26 years of experience, is published, etc. I am pretty sure we have assembled a good team at this point and all are in agreement that there are some problems but none that are insurmountable.


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## KB87

FLgatorgirl, I think you're doing everything that you can and that you're comfortable with. You've reached out to resources, found individuals to help you with your situation and are doing what you feel is fit for your pup. You aren't doing anything wrong or out of line- simply loving your pup and trying to handle a tough, delicate situation.

Take the criticism with a grain of salt. Anyone outside of the situation/who hasn't met or evaluated your pup is hard pressed to give sound advice for _exactly_ what you're facing. Opinions run rampant on this forum and what one person may do, another may think is insane. But that's the beauty of this forum- it's a place to offer advice, make others think, see another train of thought and gain knowledge.

Only you can choose what is best for your pup- consulting with your breeder (who sounds dedicated and pretty great) and a behaviorist sound like good places to start with this issue. If you feel confident with their evaluations and their advice then you are doing everything right for your dog. Just keep it up


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## R E McCraith

FLg - Dave Mason sang it - There R no Good V's - There R No Bad V's - It's Only YOU and V & we tend 2 disagree !!!!!!!! HANG in there there - R no bad PUP's !!!!!!!!


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