# CRATE ISSUES!!!! Help!!!



## akc0804

We have a 15 week old female that we got at 8 weeks. She has had serious issues with her crate since day 1. We always make sure she has plenty of exercise and always take her out before we put her up but she ALWAYS pees in it no matter how long she's put up. The longest we've been away is 2 hours and just last week she peed in it after only 20 minutes. She freaks and cries constantly while crated. 
We have tried everything except co-sleeping which is out of the question. I didn't do that with my own children and we won't do that with our puppy. We feed her in it, give her treats in it, tried sitting with her, covering the crate, not covering the crate, keeping the crate in our bedroom, we tried not using any bedding, music, white noise, pheromone sprays, etc... and nothing works. We had to start using carabiners to keep the door shut because she bites and pulls on the door so much she makes the latches give. 
I tried using our bathroom to keep her contained and she chewed up the corners of my cabinets! 
We've taken her to the vet she doesn't have a UTI. I don't know what else to do. She's either going to have to be medicated or we're going to have to find another home for her. We can't sleep and i have to give her a bath after she's crated EVERY DAY because she lays in her pee! I'm beyond frustrated and I'm starting to think we made a HUGE mistake getting her. My best friend is a tech at the vet we take her too and it baffles her that she's still doing this. She thinks something may be mentally wrong with her. I'm looking for advice here or maybe any similar stories. Please don't bash me or tell me to "revisit" old posts as I've already done all that. I don't need to be made to feel bad about this. I'm already doing that on my own, I am at my whits end and don't know how much longer we can do this.


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## Tabor

How big is the crate? It shouldn't be too big, I've read some places say that there should be enough room to walk in, turn around, lie down and obviously stand up. The larger the crate the more likely they are to 'go' in it.

I have a 10 week old and his crate is too big for him, so we have a barrier up that we plan to move/remove as he grows. His only accident in there is all my fault, I let him go too long.


I don't have a ton of advice or experience but being that I have a new puppy also, I wanted to give my experiences as at least a starting point before some (much) more experienced V owners chime in.


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## akc0804

Tabor, thanks for your reply. We have a barrier in it that allows her just enough space to turn around and lay down. Although she has been able to knock it loose once and tear it down since she's so crazy when we put her in it.


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## dextersmom

akc0804 said:


> We feed her in it, give her treats in it, tried sitting with her, covering the crate, not covering the crate, keeping the crate in our bedroom, we tried not using any bedding, music, white noise, pheromone sprays, etc... and nothing works. We had to start using carabiners to keep the door shut because she bites and pulls on the door so much she makes the latches give.


Honestly, a lot of it is trial and error (which it sounds like you've done) + time and consistency. Dexter was also a shrieking nightmare in his crate at the beginning and I also felt helpless (especially when you try every piece of advice under the sun and don't feel like anything is working). One thing that DID help us was putting a stuffed toy roughly the size of a littermate in his crate with him (he was too worked up to chew it most of the time anyways). You can also run it through the dryer for a bit so it's warm.

How consistent have you been with crating? Have you crated her on a strict schedule? Do you let her out of the crate when she's upset? (Every time we made progress with Dexter but then gave into him it was like taking 5 giant steps backwards.) Do you crate her while you are home? Is she better at night vs. during the day? 

A plastic crate might be worth a try. Some dogs feel more secure in a covered kennel (Dexter pulled sheets through his wire crate so that wasn't much of an option for us.)

If she doesn't have a UTI, I would think the peeing is just from being distraught. I would be surprised if that didn't improve as crate training got easier.


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## dextersmom

akc0804 said:


> She thinks something may be mentally wrong with her. I'm looking for advice here or maybe any similar stories.


I think we've all thought our Vizsla's were mental cases at one point... no?!  My mom thought Dexter was an aggressive lunatic, ha! They are just a very dramatic and sensitive breed.

Do you have any support from your breeder? Perhaps they could take her back for a while and give her a head start on crate training in an environment where she is less stressed?


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## emilycn

I don't think there's any advice I can offer, and I didn't have such a tough time with crate training, so I'm not of much use to you...

...All I can offer is support. To that end, I do think that you are making a huge effort, trying all of the right things, and it sounds like your heart is in it. So at least you have that---many many many people wouldn't put themselves through half the effort and heartache you have so far, and your difficult puppy is lucky to have you.

Do you have any more details about what you've tried and what the result was? That might help give us some more ideas about what else you could try, or at least maybe help you pick out some patterns in your trial and error that you might not have noticed before.


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## akc0804

Hi dextersmom and thank you for your reply. 
We have put her "piggy" in it with her which is a stuffed toy a little smaller than she is. She ignored it completely. We are very consistent with crating her. I try to keep it around the same times daily. I stay home and even plan my household chores around it. So yes, she is in it while I'm home. I don't let her out when she's upset. Only when she is sitting and quiet. Sometimes I have to leave the room and come back several times to get her to calm down. She has gotten a little better at night but still howls and freaks a good bit. We had to stop covering her crate as well because she was pulling the blanket through and actually peeing on it too. 
I reached out to the breeder this past Friday and asked several questions about the parents and her litter mates but have yet to hear back from her and this isnt first time she's dodged questions and emails. I'm not sure if her help will be an avenue that is an option for us. 
I've thought of a plastic crate but gosh they are sooo expensive. Plus it would suck to clean if it doesn't work. At least with the other one the plastic tray slides out and I can clean it easier. I also don't wanna spend the money on something that may not work.


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## emilycn

You could try one of these instead of a plastic crate (though note that there's no divider). http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0018MM8RC?keywords=travel crate&qid=1456174573&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

It's a little bit cheaper, you could put the plastic tray in the bottom of it, and if it gets pee on it, just hose it down and let it air dry.

Might not be the solution for you, but just a thought. 

I keep this crate in the trunk of my car, and I love it.


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## dextersmom

akc0804 said:


> I don't let her out when she's upset. Only when she is sitting and quiet. Sometimes I have to leave the room and come back several times to get her to calm down. She has gotten a little better at night but still howls and freaks a good bit.


Honestly, it sounds like she's making some progress if she's quiet at all, ever! Do you think she's not been improving at all, or just improving more slowly than you'd expected? For our V at least, he probably wasn't completely silent most of the time until he was close to 5 months old. And even then, he would sing himself to sleep shortly after being put in his crate at night.

Is she howling and freaking out when you first put her in there, then? But sometimes calming herself down eventually?

Is she quieting down for part of the night and waking up to cry? Or screaming from the start?



akc0804 said:


> I've thought of a plastic crate but gosh they are sooo expensive. Plus it would suck to clean if it doesn't work. At least with the other one the plastic tray slides out and I can clean it easier. I also don't wanna spend the money on something that may not work.


Totally understand. I would get a puppy sized one to begin with - I think those are quite a bit cheaper. And I'd check Craigslist, yard sale sites, etc. Often people are looking to get rid of them. I don't find ours hard to clean at all. It's basically wiping the bottom plastic tray too, it just doesn't slide out.

When our V busted out of the wire crate, he also did it by going at the bars around the door/on the door with his teeth. I think when he could feel them give (since the door is separate) it encouraged him. The tighter, thicker wire of the plastic crate door (and less wiggle) made him give up much more quickly because they can't really get a good mouthful of it.


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## dextersmom

What does she do if you leave the room and shut the door so she can't get to you (when she's uncrated)? Does she throw a similar tantrum/pee? (Ha, try this on a tile floor!) Part of how we worked with Dexter was doing this sort of stuff while he wasn't crated (therefore calmer) to get him used to being alone. I'd lock him out of the laundry room every time I switched a load. I'd hear him crying at the door (so I knew he wasn't getting into trouble) and wouldn't open it until he had settled down.


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## dextersmom

(And remember she is a baby, who is only upset because she loves you, and wants to be with you. They can seem like little monsters, but take lots of deep breaths and try to remember that she's not doing it on purpose!)


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## gingerling

Hmmm...let me see if I can add anything useful. Two issues for me: 1) is this a crate issue or an emerging separation anxiety issue, and 2) What was her very first few introductions to the crate like, what were the circumstances?

Puppies don't like to be alone, and Vizslas even more so. But sometimes they have to be alone and be OK with that, and the best way of training that is to incorporate the crate into their routine so they acclimate to it while you're home, near them. It sounds like you're doing that, so at this point, it's just her getting used to it and self soothing. If you've been doing that, then there's nothing to offer other than reassurance and a glass or two of merlot, it will just take some time and patience. If you haven't...if you started with the crate when you left the house, if her first experiences with the crate were not only being in there, alone..but not having you anywhere in the house, let's talk about that, b/c there's another issue there that would need to be addressed, we'd need to extinguish the prior association of "Crate=loneliness". Can you clarify her first encounters with the crate?

I'd also suggest a smaller plastic crate, maybe your vet tech friend can lend you one, it sometimes makes a difference as it's more cave like and frankly, it might provide her with enough of novel experience so she's not associating the crate with misery, as she now is. They're actually easier to clean, they fit in the sink and you just splash some water thru it, which not only gets the wee out, but also the saliva. The smaller size also lets you move it around easily so she's always with you when she's in it, at least for now.

Lastly..and I don't think you're there just yet...but there are some dogs (and/or their owners) who simply cannot tolerate the crate (or the process of acclimating them to it). There's treatment for that, but please don't leave her unsupervised in a bathroom..the issue isn't the crate, it's being separated from you. Putting her in a larger space....especially when she's so agitated...can be dangerous for her (to say nothing about your possessions).


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## jld640

Completely agree with dextersmom about the trial and error. Here are a few more ideas for you to consider. If you've already tried them, hopefully you'll get some more suggestions from others. 

I didn't see any details about your night routines. At 15 weeks, I was still setting the alarm and taking Savannah outside to pee every two hours. If she has to pee in the crate at night, she may not understand she's not supposed to pee in it during the day. You might think about your potty training routines to see if those routines are contributing to the crate problem.

I've never had a crate with a tray, but if the tray is being cleaned and the sides and floor aren't, the crate will still smell like a restroom to your puppy. Ditto with the bedding. And the toy. (Savannah slept on an old towel for months)

Next, I'd spend some time every day training her to go into her crate on her own so you don't have to put her in each time. Even if you tried doing this before, at 15 weeks, she may have a better idea of responding to commands than she did before. It may be worth trying again. At this point, you will probably have to throw a party if she even looks at the crate and build up to her actually walking through the door. Break it down into small steps that you can celebrate and do 5 minutes 3-4 times a day.

Last, try to find a super-awesome-yummy crate-only treat. It can be almost anything, but it needs to be something she goes nuts for and never gets except when something positive happens around her crate. You may actually have to start her eating the treats in front of the crate and gradually lead her into the crate or put a line of treats on the floor in front of the crate and leading into the crate. Make sure you say 'CRATE' or whatever your command is going to be as soon as her face breaks the plane of the doorway.

Hope something here works for you. I remember the burst-into-tears frustration phase. I assure you it's totally worth all the aggravation after you finally stumble onto what works for your family.

Good luck!


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## akc0804

Thank you everyone for your advice and support. 
I'm going to try and answer all your questions so maybe we can figure this out. At night we still get up to take her out. Usually just twice and she makes it through without peeing. We take her water up about 2 hours before bed so she's not full of it when we put her to bed. She is doing better at night but still gets upset and howls/whines for a while. We take her out again at 7 when we get up for the day and she then gets breakfast then we take her out again at 7:30 before I leave to take the kids to school. When I come home I take her out again and then we play or cuddle for a bit then I take her out again and I put her up around 10 so I can get my household chores done. Usually at this time she is freaking out and crying the whole time. I usually go in to let her pee at least once an hour (I don't let her out if she's freaking she has to chill first) then around lunch time I feed her and we play some more and I try to get her to nap in her crate when she's getting sleepy and wants to pass out in my lap. I will move her to the crate or try and get her to go in on her own. She usually wants nothing to do with it and if I leave the door open she just comes out and starts whining to be let into my lap which I don't allow and escort her back to her crate. My kids get home at 3:15 and they take her outside and run her around to wear her out and then play some more when they come in. She has dinner at 6:30 and we go to bed around 11. All during this time she is taken out about once an hour and she rarely has accidents in the house. She gets excited and pees sometimes when my husband gets home but we don't get upset about that. I've been trying to meet him outside when he pulls up so she's not going on her floor. 
Now during the time I'm cleaning even though she's gone out she will still pee in the crate and anytime we have to leave the house it's the same thing. We have even limited her water intake if we know we have to go somewhere. 

Her first introductions to the crate were the day we brought her home. We got here around 5 pm and spent the rest of the day on the floor with her sitting near the crate letter her go in and out. We put treats and toys in it and near it and she had no issues as long as the door was open. We tried closing the door while we were sitting there and she was fine for about a minute before she started crying. Then later we had to go to bed. At first we did not have it in our room. She cried all night. We still got up and took her out many many times and she actually did not pee in there the first night. 

So there's a little info on our daily schedule and her first experience. If it sounds a little choppy in sorry. I have an appt soon and don't have time to edit. 

Thank y'all again for taking time to try help and for the advice. She has a vet appt today and I'm going to talk to him again about all this. I'm starting to think this is separation anxiety. :-[


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## Canadian Expy

What you've described sounds to me like separation anxiety more than just crate anxiety. I dealt with similar behaviour with one of my recent fosters. Excessive howling, peeing/pooping in the crate (having to bath the dog when I went home at lunch break, again after work, and any other time we left him alone in the house), chewing crate bars, etc. It is not an easy road, but you can do it!  If you do feel you are over your head though, I would suggest that you contact a trainer who can help. I know how mentally challenging it can be, and it can help having someone experienced reassuring you that you are doing the right thing. 

First, I would keep trying to get the pup to interact with the crate as you have been doing. Feeding the pup in there, play lots of crate games, randomly hiding treats in the crate (cheese works well!), etc. You are on the right track. At night time, keep the crate in your room, and keep it as close to the bed as you can so she knows your nearby (you can gradually move it to the part of the room you would like the pup to sleep in later on). I always put a t-shirt in the crate with my scent on it for the pup to sleep with as well. When you put the pup in the crate at night, say "Bedtime" (instead of crate command you use for when you leave). The pup will learn it is time for sleep, and won't think you are leaving her. I found night time was the easiest to break, it took 3-5 nights once I started the excercises below, and my pup would settle and go to sleep (with only a couple minutes of whimpering). There will be some fuss in the beginning, but I just say"Hush! Bedtime". After a week or so if I said "bedtime", he would go into his crate in our room willingly, as he got used to the routine. 

I would switch from a metal crate to the plastic crate, as it made a huge difference for us. Ask your vet friend as suggested, or check classifieds for one for sale. I've always found with crates, when I buy them online, I can always sell them and get my money back if I don't end up needing the item. 



dextersmom said:


> What does she do if you leave the room and shut the door so she can't get to you (when she's uncrated)? Does she throw a similar tantrum/pee? (Ha, try this on a tile floor!) Part of how we worked with Dexter was doing this sort of stuff while he wasn't crated (therefore calmer) to get him used to being alone. I'd lock him out of the laundry room every time I switched a load. I'd hear him crying at the door (so I knew he wasn't getting into trouble) and wouldn't open it until he had settled down.


This question is important in determining if it is separation anxiety or just crate anxiety (or quite possibly, both). If crying when alone and uncrated, then it is a separation issue that is enhanced when in the crate. I started by leashing the pup in our kitchen (due to the tiled floor). I would then leave the room for 10 seconds, come back (say nothing to the pup), pretend to do stuff in the kitchen and then leave again for a slightly longer period of time. If the pup starts howling before you return, you've left for too long. With my recent foster, at first I could only leave for 10 second intervals without him making a peep. Even if you can only extend the time by 5 second intervals, then you need to do that. Do not go beyond the pups threshold. You cannot rush the process. I then build up the time, from seconds, to a few minutes, then 10 minutes, 15, minutes, 20 minutes, etc. It is a slow, but if you work within the pups limits you will see progress. I cannot stress enough not to rush it. 

Once you have made progress with the pup being alone outside of the crate, then you can start with doing the same with the crate. Hide treats in the crate. Put the pup in the crate for a few seconds before she starts fussing, and then let her out (make no big deal of being let out of it). For the first while, until she starts settling, she won't even notice the treats you've put in there, but keep doing it anyways. 

Take a short break, and then start the process all over again, gradually extending the amount of time the pup is in the crate. Once you can get the pup staying in the crate for a short period (even 30 seconds) with you in the room, then you can start leaving the room for short periods. Start by just walking out of the room, and walking back in, then letting the pup out (make sure she is calm before you release her). These short but consistent exercises will help her settle. Do this for as long as you need, building up the time she can handle before she freaks out. As others have mentioned, also use a specific crate toy. I use a traditional style Kong, which I stuff with toys and then "cap" with cheese or peanut butter. The pup only gets this special toy in the crate (and the smelly treats inside usually capture their attention eventually). 

I wish I could tell you there was some quick, easy fix. With my recent foster, it took me 3 weeks of dedicated training to work him through it. He has since been adopted and is now totally fine, but it really did put my patience and sanity to the test. 

I'm not sure if you've tried, but a "thunder shirt" may also help. I haven't had success with it personally, but I've spoken with others who have and swear by it. 

Please keep us updated on your progress.


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## dextersmom

A couple of other questions for clarification:

Is she getting a lot of personal attention and exercise between the time you come back from dropping off the kids at school until she's crated for the morning? Is she getting to run her little heart out for 10-15 minutes, explore outside, cuddle with you? It sounds like she's getting all that in the late afternoon/evening, but is she getting it when the kids are gone, too? It might also be worth the stimulation to take her on the car ride to school with you all if that's not too crazy in your car.

Just to double check - it is definitely pee in her crate, right? Not drool? If our guy has an anxious episode in his crate he will drool an insane amount (soaking his bedding). But that obviously smells a lot different 



Canadian said:


> It is not an easy road, but you can do it!  If you do feel you are over your head though, I would suggest that you contact a trainer who can help. I know how mentally challenging it can be, and it can help having someone experienced reassuring you that you are doing the right thing.
> 
> I wish I could tell you there was some quick, easy fix. With my recent foster, it took me 3 weeks of dedicated training to work him through it.


The good news is puppies learn quickly! I can't imagine dealing with separation anxiety in an adult dog. If we hadn't worked with Dexter as a pup, I think he'd be one of those dogs that just cannot.ever.be.crated and chews through doors and breaks windows, etc. Put the work in now, when the pup is small and just settling into behavior patterns. Imagine a 50 lb. dog with the same behaviors - it would be on another level! It *will* pay off! (It makes my heart happy now to spy on Dexter with our Nestcam sleeping the day away in his crate without making a peep while I'm at work.) It can be done - not to say it isn't incredibly hard. Baby steps!!


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## gingerling

It's hard to know for sure what's going on, maybe you could tape it and post it so we can see it? 

For me..and this is the confusing and contradictory part based on some of the adivce given already, I know...given her age and your description, it does NOT sound like separation anxiety, and I use that term in the clinical sense. Yes, she's obviously unhappy and probably anxious, but actual separation anxiety is a far more generalized pattern of longstanding duration, not limited to just being in the crate. I clarify this only b/c the treatment for SA is a lot different than it would be for crate adjustment.

I'll also say based on your description that what you're experiencing is fairly normal and not pathological...and temporary. They typically scream a lot when you first put them in there, being alone and confined is totally. It takes time to adjust. 

You're doing all the right things here: Exercising her, playing with her, keeping it consistent. Be patient. Keep lots of toys and new raw hide in there, keep the blankets clean and soft. It takes time, I don't think there's some magic advice that can circumvent the process of her adjusting and learning to self soothe.


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## gingerling

Gingerling said:


> It's hard to know for sure what's going on, maybe you could tape it and post it so we can see it?
> 
> For me..and this is the confusing and contradictory part based on some of the adivce given already, I know...given her age and your description, it does NOT sound like separation anxiety, and I use that term in the clinical sense. Yes, she's obviously unhappy and probably anxious, but actual separation anxiety is a far more generalized pattern of longstanding duration, not limited to just being in the crate. I clarify this only b/c the treatment for SA is a lot different than it would be for crate adjustment.
> 
> I'll also say based on your description that what you're experiencing is fairly normal and not pathological...and temporary. They typically scream a lot when you first put them in there, being alone and confined is totally alien. It takes time to adjust.
> 
> You're doing all the right things here: Exercising her, playing with her, keeping it consistent. Be patient. Keep lots of toys and new raw hide in there, keep the blankets clean and soft. It takes time, I don't think there's some magic advice that can circumvent the process of her adjusting and learning to self soothe.


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## Canadian Expy

I agree, it is difficult to know what is going on without observing, and I agree it is not yet "clinical" separation anxiety, but I would caution on saying it is temporary, as no behaviour will be temporary if one does not work with the dog to resolve it. There are many excellent suggestions in this thread. V's are a breed known for anxiety issues, so it is important to work with the pup as early as possible to prevent long term problems. AKC is definitely on the right track, and some pups just take more time to get the routine down. Stick with it 

Crate training can feel like an eternity, but it is worth it for the dog's safety, and your peace of mind.


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## akc0804

Thank you everyone for your words of encouragement and advice. We do love this little girl and want badly for her to be happy and for us to be happy. I got an airline crate yesterday from Craig's list. I am going to clean it today and introduce her to it all day tomorrow. Cross your fingers she likes this one better. I'll keep y'all informed on our progress. I also got a book called Don't leave me by Nicole Wilde for some tips and what works for her. Oh and to answer the question on if she gets upset if she's out of the crate and I leave the room. The answer is yes she does. We have baby gates up to keep her in the front of the house and if I have to go to the bathroom or anything she is at that gate crying until I come back. Now I just take her with me to help keep her from getting upset. She likes the "adventures" in the rest of the house and does great listening and following me around. 
I'm going to try all the suggestions y'all have given and we'll see how it goes. Thanks again!!


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## MCD

I don't want to medicate because I don't feel that is the right thing. I just went from a 42 inch wire crate with too much room in it to a 39 inch crate. She just has enough room to lie down and turn around in it. Dharma nests in her bedding. The breeder also told me that they won't or shouldn't soil their dens or crates. We have been hit or miss and Dharma is almost 3 years old now. Believe me when I say we have tried every option listed on the forum or in books or what the trainer and breeder have said and failed miserably!
It comes down to time/maturity, self soothing and being consistent/patient or not loosing your sanity!
Also get used to not being able to go any where without your V- it is like having a shadow. Even in the bathtub some days.


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## Canadian Expy

Crate size is crucial. Too large, and the pup will likely soil it. If you are having that problem, go smaller.

With my recent foster (who is a V mix) she would soil her crate, no problem. But she also sat in a kennel in own filth for months. As soon as I made the crate much smaller, the accidents stopped immediately. I also temporarily removed all bedding in the crate, so that it did not act as a sponge. After a few days accident free, I gave her the bedding back, and we are now on our 3rd week of no accidents. 

Many think they are being kind in offering a Dane sized crate. It is humans who crave space, not dogs. 

If you have any questions/concerns we are all here to help and coming from different experiences and methods  Keep us posted.


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## KodasMom

I totally understand where you are coming from. Originally, we had our puppy's crate in another room of the house (because I also didn't want to co-sleep with him, though he is REALLY cute!). He would go nuts all night and need to be let out every 2 hours. Eventually we moved the crate in to our bedroom and it changed everything for us at night. It took us about a week or two of making him bark it out until he fell asleep (with us laying in the bed near the crate). Typically it took about 15-20 minutes before he would give us and pass out. It's worth letting the pup cry themselves to sleep. It killed us at first but he adjusted quickly. He now sleeps in the crate through the night from about 10am to 7am without a single whine. We say "go to your crate" and he walks right in and goes to sleep. It takes time but it does happen. 

In regards to the crate peeing/destruction during the day. Our pup would go insane even though we had walkers come twice a day. We switched him to playgroups in the morning and now he sleeps for the majority of the afternoon. He still barks a little bit when the walker puts him back in the crate but we asked the walker to give him a Kong with peanut butter in the crate as he left and that has solved this problem. Now he has been amazing since then. We've found that he was acting up being he had so much pent up energy in the crate and that he was bored. Maybe your pup just needs more physical and mental stimulation so that when he goes back in the crate he is tired and just falls asleep or plays with something in the crate (that he can't destroy). 

Try getting a Snoop (http://www.planetdog.com/orbee-tuff-snoop). Our pup is obsessed with it. Put a treat in that's a little bit too big to fall out and it distracts him for a while and mentally tires him out. 

Good luck!


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## akc0804

Just wanted to update everyone. My girl is doing sooooo much better!! She has stopped peeing in her crate completely and only cries for a little while when we put her up if at all. It's almost like a switch got flipped or something. She just started to "get it."
Thanks for all the advice and support. I think we're all going to make it through and be one big happy family!


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