# Dominance and agression



## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

Ok so here's a few questions to the more experienced V crowd: Whistler our 15 week old male pup has been put through a two week obedience training program. The master trainer said that he was dominant but would be manageable and we have seen enormous before and after results after the 2 weeks. Whistler's since gone to the dog park where he's automatically attracted to the bigger dogs and goes after them to play with them incessantly. So my questions are as follow: when teenage and hormones kick in, how much regression from the training/control of dominance can we expect. Also, as our breeder may select him for a stud for breeding purposes, we will keep him intact. Can anyone share some insight on the "wild ride" to come?


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## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

Just wanted to share this pic with you.. I call it hanging out with mom


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Master trainer is a dipstick. 
@ 15 weeks no dog is classed dominant. They are puppies and generally allowed to get away with pretty well anything until 16 weeks or so.

Too soon too much training, IMO. At this point all they need is for someone to redirect their attention and potty train. Other than that a wire crate will help speed things up. 
Dog parks are of no use, if you wish get together with a few good dogs and owner you trust but that's it. Generally dogs at dog parks are out of control and the owners know/care little about them other than sipping their coffee and chatting.

Julius


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## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks for the comments, I did notice that at the dog park the owners seemed relatively uninterested in their dogs...


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## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

I have to say that the training he did with him did wonders to his relationship in our home with the cats, his crate, the barking, the basic commands... It was done with positive reinforcement so I have to say that I'm satisfied with what he accomplished. Having zero experience with dogs I found the training extremely helpful because I stood to learn as much as the pup and it translates into me knowing more what to do in certain sotuations..

I've put him in doggy day care as we live in an appartment complex and have to thread lightly with his crate training to not disturb the neighbors. He is however doing very well in his crate.
I'm not planning on leaving him at the dog day care all week however I feel its benificial for him to go a couple times a week to socialize a bit. Thats when the caretakers told us that he does have a tendancy to want to be quite exuberant with the larger dogs especially. Almost like a teenager wanting to show he's old enough to hang out with the older kids and assert himself...


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## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks for the input Julius!


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

datacan said:


> Master trainer is a dipstick.
> @ 15 weeks no dog is classed dominant. They are puppies and generally allowed to get away with pretty well anything until 16 weeks or so.
> 
> Too soon too much training, IMO. At this point all they need is for someone to redirect their attention and potty train. Other than that a wire crate will help speed things up.
> ...


Julius, You took the words right out of my mouth. I challenge any human, regardless of dog knowledge or experience, to be able to determine that a pup is dominant or aggressive at 15 weeks of age. FFS, it's just a baby! Get another trainer would be my very first suggestion.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Ozkar said:


> datacan said:
> 
> 
> > Master trainer is a dipstick.
> ...


I wouldn't know for sure if a pup was dominant, although certain things would lead me to pay closer attention as time went on with a new pup. 
They simply need a leader to step in and tell them what is allowed and what is not just as a non-dominant dog does.

That being said, we had a trainer early on and he assured us that Mischa was not dominant, and was not going to be, despite what we thought we were seeing. 
He was 100% correct, so I can only assume that he could tell the difference between a pup that was dominant or not.

The idea of not training a dog until 16 weeks is flat out silly. Training begins on day one, whether you like it not.

AcadianTornando, I'm glad you had a positive experience with your training sessions. 
I would heed your trainers advice and stay on top of his behaviour. A dominant dog does not become aggressive with leadership and direction. 
Keep it up and you'll have an amazing pet for years and years.

You asked about the trying teenage times. If you establish a good set of rules around your home and are consistent about not allowing your pup to break those rules, the teenage times will be a breeze. You step up the training when they don't listen and by doing that, they don't have as much of a chance to disobey you.

You'll learn as you go, and the more you train your dog, the better he will be.


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## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

Thank you all for your comments, I think I might be hypocondriac in the sense that I just want whats best for him short and longterm. I'm sure glad the trainer taught us what to look out for and how to gently correct! I had read the book Versatile Vizsla and obviously did a lot of reading on this forum prior to making the decision to get him. I do like to challenge him mentally alot hence I call him my little soldier because when he sits it's almost as he salutes! 

''A dominant dog does not become aggressive with leadership and direction'' 

I'll focus on this for the next while


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

You have got one lucky dog!

You've got a great attitude towards him and are eager to learn about what else you can do for him. 

Hunting is certainly not for everyone, but if you train your dog as if it were to hunt for you, you'll end up with an amazing companion that you will never have to worry about. 

The most respected member on here, Gunnr, gave us that advice, and it has paid off in spades... in fact, it worked so well that I got into hunting all because of my dog!


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## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

Well, we have a wood lot on 30 some acres and it is definitely in the plans to spend some time with him in the woods. My father used to hunt deer and duck. We have rabbits and pheasants in the area also. I'll check out his posts and see what I can learn! Mostly we got him for a running companion but the more time goes by, the more I want to see what he's really made of! My breeder's into all sorts of things with her dogs, whether it be field trials, obedience, rally, or even zoo-therapy and show dogs and I'm starting to get an itch to do learn what this is all about. I just can't wait to bring him running but I've read that I have to wait until he's about 18 months to run with him on a regular basis. Obviously he runs like a crazed lunatic when he's playing and I'm sure that's normal  
If ever you have some advice on when I could start jogging with him and frequency I'd sure appreciate it.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

I think people with a great deal of experience can see the signs of dominance and aggression early. 

We do Volhard testing on Pups as well as our own. I recall one female that we decided to keep primarily based on her dominant personality. In the wrong home she would have been a problem and probably been ruined. Properly raised and trained she's become a fantastic and highly competitive dog. She is still and always will be an alpha female in dog hierarchy, but not human.

We begin biosensor training at day 3. We imprint on birds before they go home at 8 weeks. We begin potty training prior to them leaving. There are many good traits that can be developed in a young dog. The key is to have a very specific goals in mind and the young pup should never realize he/she is being "trained". It isn't negative training, it's exposure and direction. They are sponges and soak it up.

Ken


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Dennis, perhaps it's time for a companion for Misha... Nothing like puppy smell to jog one's memory. 

I agree Gunnr is tops...


Ps I believe we started talking about behavior mod, apartment living,doggie day care and dog parks ...and it somehow shifted to birds. 
Quite a different worlds.


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## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

Haha, my fault for extending into other subjects.. got carried away


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

datacan said:


> Dennis, perhaps it's time for a companion for Misha... Nothing like puppy smell to jog one's memory.
> 
> I agree Gunnr is tops...
> 
> ...


She could use a big 'little' brother for sure, but I don't think we have it in us to raise another V pup at the moment. Things are just settling down here at her ripe old age of 2.5, and the break from the madness is welcome! lol

I certainly don't forget what it was like to have a pup, and I specifically remember being very strict about her not chewing our things, sitting and waiting for food, being woken up, and being touched on her eyes, ears, and feet right off the bat. 
All part of training a pup.

I also remember when Mischa was ~6 months old, and a friend brought over a 7 week old pup. He bit Mischa's nose and stole her bed, guarding it with growls. I'd say that was a pretty good indicator of a dominant pup. 

Here they are before he decided to claim it as his own:



And here is Mischa after he took it, laying down in her old, broken down, size small puppy crate: lol!
[img]
I'm sure he was one of the pups that would have been pushing his litter-mates away during feeding time with Mom.



We were talking about training, and I was sharing the thought that training them to hunt gives you a great, well behaved, team-mate whether you do in fact hunt with them or not. 
Hunt training is all about working together. That's a pretty good definition of 'Companion'.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

WillowyndRanch said:


> I think people with a great deal of experience can see the signs of dominance and aggression early.
> 
> We do Volhard testing on Pups as well as our own. I recall one female that we decided to keep primarily based on her dominant personality. In the wrong home she would have been a problem and probably been ruined. Properly raised and trained she's become a fantastic and highly competitive dog. She is still and always will be an alpha female in dog hierarchy, but not human.
> 
> ...


Ken, you know how much I respect your opinions and experience with dogs. However, at 15 weeks, I think you're being very optimistic in your knowledge if you believe you can determine a dominant pup. Sure, there can be signs, but they are often not there later in puppyhood. I've had sooooooo many pups over the years, admitedly only two V's, but the rest were all working farm dogs and more often than not, the ones we picked as dominant or possibly aggressive at that age, turned out to be big sooks.  Often it's the quiet or shy pup which can turn out to be dominant. I never read anything into it until they are getting into month 5 and 6 and even then, they often turn out different to what you had thought. Even my dear old Pop who was a true animal whisperer from mice to Horses couldn't tell till later in life and he was a true animal behavioural freak.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Ozkar we all have our opinions and experiences. I'm relating mine and I am fully confident this girl would have been an alligator in the wrong hands. Saw it very early and progressively and I'm certainly not wrong on that call knowing her as an adult. 

Would I proclaim to be able to tell what every dog is going to be like when they grow up? Of course not. The environmental factors in raising a dog will have a great influence on how it is as an adult. I'm saying that there are definite signals that experienced people can see that a pup is more or less pre-disposed to a certain level of dominance or aggression. I see it in interaction with the other pups in the litter, their mother, other unrelated dogs, the people who handle them and general disposition. How the pup is raised past that and it's environment, training and so forth will determine the pups ultimate status and levels of dominance and aggression.

Could it be possible that the dogs percieved as dominant, were in fact so, and the perceived less dominant also so? 
One could theorize that as such, it would be common that the levels of leadership and training were commensurate with the level of dog. This would potentially result in a compliant and subservient animal that was initially dominant through it's training as it developed. Likewise, the inverse in regards to the perceived subservient dog, wishing and working on it to develop confidence. 

Ken


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

"in the wrong hands" everything is a potential problem. 

This is where Government steps in and saves us.... In Ontario, Canada "dog specific legislation" will force owners to muzzle certain dogs (for now, GSD, Dobies) every time they go outside. This is just the beginning because the law can be expanded in creative ways. 

How did a dog bred for 1000 years suddenly become so dominant and agessive that even its puppies are, for a "master dog trainer", hard to deal with?

I say we are going the wrong way... And if hunt training is the only sure fire way to get a good Vizsla under control, then so be it. We should all include some hunt specific training.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

datacan said:


> How did a dog bred for 1000 years suddenly become so dominant and agessive that even its puppies are, for a "master dog trainer", hard to deal with?


I don't have an answer, but I do have a thought. 

The past 100 or so years have largely changed the lives we, as a Society, lead and as a result the dogs which share our lives. We are, as a whole, now far removed from Rural living. We are bottled up in apartments, cities and 10 or more to an acre suburban "lots". They aren't allowed to run off leash in most places. A normal few acre wander around the yard for a farm dog will result in a complaint from a neighbor or worse. We put our dogs in with strange packs at the dog park and expect them to accept and be accepted by whatever dogs make up the pack that particular day. We rarely raise our own foods, hunt game for the table and use our dogs in the working fashion for which they were bred. They're treated like children with daycare and babysitters rather than spending days with their Owners. Dogs have always been kept for both work and protection. The past few decades and now all dogs are at fault for doing what they have done for centuries. 
100 years ago the term "cull" was normal and understood. "Rescue" didn't exist. Today holds essentially the opposite true. 

Have the dogs actually become more dominant or aggressive, or have these rapid changes of Society merely highlighted what was always there? As a whole, are we more attuned to animal behaviour by not living with rough stock and working dogs, or the more likely - less? If we don't understand animal behaviour as relates to dogs, like the newscaster woman who stuffed her face into the afraid and warning growling dog and was subsequently bitten, is it really justice to blame the dog or the breeding, or should we be the ones accountable? 

Ken


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Hey Ken, I hope I didn't offend you by my comments. As I eluded to early in my previous post, my respect for you and your knowledge and experience goes without saying. I mean that sincerely. 

Yes, each and all are entitled to their opinion and you are no different. I truly hope my comments didn't appear to suggest otherwise. I would never want to curb the truly amazing information you share with all and sundry in here. You are a brilliant resource.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Absolutely no offense taken Ozkar and likewise my respect for you and your opinions. 

Thank you for the very very kind comments. I would never consider myself brilliant, more a simple man with a passion, the good fortune and love of a good woman which allow me to pursue that passion, and a venue like this to share as I am humbly able.

Ken


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Ken, don't sell yourself short mate. You and a few others in here have a huge depth of knowledge and understanding in anything Vizsla!!!   Not only that, apart from the odd occasion when you lose patience   you also have a very welcoming way of setting someone on the right path....   A bit of a wordsmith on occasions you are!!


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