# A discussion on training methods. What has worked for you and why?



## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

I've noticed over the last couple months there has been a healthy discussion on training tools, methods and techniques. As you can imagine with an international forum of members, some new to dogs and some old to dogs, there are a lot of opinions on what should and shouldn't be done. Thank the heavens we live in an age where we can free think and use individual ideas and concepts. With the vast array of training tools, methods, ideologies, styles, tips and tricks; which ones have proven to be successful and which ones have failed? I don't want this to go in a negative direction so no bashing of another's method; if it works for you and your pup, that's awesome, please share with the group how your method has been successful. With the many newbies and veterans here, I feel that we can all gain from hearing how you and your pup are learning together.

With that I'll start. 

I've been around gundogs and working dogs my whole life growing up in the rural farm country in the middle of nowhere backwoods of Georgia. From an early age I learned that every animal has the capacity to learn how to perform a job as long as you can train on a level of understanding that the animal can comprehend. Only in the last 12 years have I had personal dogs that I've trained from beginning to death and Kauzy is my third personal dog, so it is still new to me. 2 years ago I rescued my pup Kauzy @ age 6 months old with the intention and idea of getting a versatile gundog that could do it all with me. I hunt year round in many areas with many different tactics. Deer, elk, moose, antelope, bear, boar, hog, duck, turkey, squirrel, racoon, rabbit, coyote, nutrias; if it can be harvested, processed and provide for me and my family, I'll happily hunt it. When I started training him on the basics, I used hand signals, vocal commands, check cord and choke chain, my cow call whistle, dried elk and his favorite canvas duck dummy we named rooster. He took to his basic commands rather quickly so I soon removed the dried elk. I didn't want him to start performing for food so I only used verbal and physical affection and tugging fun with rooster as positive reinforcement. I then began researching silent training methods because I wanted my pup to be able to learn and work in a silent hunting situation as that is a requirement for the majority of the big game animals I hunt. After extensive research I decided an e collar would be the best method for us. So I removed the whistle, check cord and choke chain and replaced it with an e collar. I was able to then resume the same training methods from before, but was now able to do the same thing silently from upto half a mile away. Once properly introduced and conditioned, I couldnt teach Kauzy quick enough, his brain is a very receptive sponge. I've been able to train him to point, flush, retrieve on land and from a boat in water, bay, tree/trap and blood/scent track in these last 2 years we've been together. He just gets it, he understands me and I him. He now responds very well to hand signals, whistle, and vocal commands, but the e collar/hand signal combo is what he responds to the best. Its truly taken him from being a good bird dog to being a seasoned all around all year hunter like me. I'm anxious to see what the future holds for us because I feel we've already accomplished so much in these last 2 years.

I wanna know what is working for you guys, so let me hear it


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Before any training really starts, I have found letting pups explore the fields/water when very young has been a great help.
Little to no input from me. Them figuring out on their own whats good and bad. As long as its not dangerous to them, I say nothing. If they come to me, I pet/praise and give them a drink. Then tap them on the side and start walking.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I watched two accomplished handlers take their young dogs to the line for a hunt test. These pups were between 9-12 months old. What i saw was two pups pulling at the end of their leads, and the handlers could careless.
When each pup was released it did very well. Hunted, listened to whistle for over, pointed and retrieved. Came into the handler on recall.
My point is don't sweat the small stuff that has nothing to do with hunting, if you want your dog to be a hunter.


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## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

I disagree with Texas red ,even though I have enormous respect for what you do.
I sought advice from a very reputable gun dog trainer when I had my first V. He was adamant that a young dog must learn to do as you say,and walk to heel on the lead,before ANYTHING else.
I've never had a vizsla before,all my previous dogs were not so enthusiastic!
I would imagine 99% of folks on the forum have their v's mostly for a pet,in which case it's critical to all other aspects of training that your dog walks politely on the lead.
I did lots of practice pounding round the streets with my pup ,but it paid off,and I'm sure she listens to me more because of that groundwork.
Having said that,my dogs are rarely on a lead.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

I just go by feel, man.. don't know exactly, but I think I give him some slack and observe what it's instincts tell him... and then shape according to what I want.... of course I'm no pro ;D


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Easy answer is ...... guess what....wait for it............ repetition and consistency....................  Hey, I know everyone's probably sick of hearing that Mantra spewed forth.... but **** it works!  That and lots of love and positivity.......

Mine have had big bones and lots of yummy treats today with loads of hugs, rubs and cuddles........... They are now champing at the bit to go HUNTING again!!! 

"We're gonna get some Deer, got 5 broadheads in the quiver"....... all sung to Ryan Lewis and Macklemores thrift shop..........


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-field-trials.html

dmak, I think Vida's quote explains a lot. 



> I would imagine 99% of folks on the forum have their v's mostly for a pet


Gun Dog men and women are in the vast minority. We WILL see a time when there will be two Vizslas and maybe AKC will come up with two names. *Hungarian Pointer * and *Pampered Vizsla*.

Breeders then can breed for two distinct characteristics. A Hungarian Pointer that is a tough Versatile Gun Dog, that the breed has been for 1,000 years, and a short hair and docile "non-working dog" like the Dalmatian, that serves no purpose but as pet.

Right now the Vizsla is a Sporting Dog. A Hunting dog. Do breeders breed toward a hunting dog? Most of the top level ones do.

If we are just going to produce "pets" then mass producing commercial breeders may as well fire up the assembly line. It takes little money to produce a pet.

But a hobby breeder, whose goal is to produce the best Vizsla: Versatile Hunting Dog, needs to have people buying their pups, who are dedicated to the health of *the breed*.

That is the purpose of field trials. Where breeders can find the best of the best to breed hunting dogs. You want a dog with field champion lines and titles? It is because the breeder took huge amounts of time and money to delvelope the gene pool that would produce the best HUNTING DOG. 

Training for me has been like Ozkar said, repetition and consistency, and I would add, thousands of miles of walks. Every walk is a training opportunity and I use them as such.

Hard-core field trialers are a group of tough folk that love the Vizsla as a Hunting Dog; not as a pet. 

Dmak, I didn't grow up hunting in the rural South but have grown to enjoy hunting behind Bailey over the last three years. Your adventures are interesting. Your abilities and the desire to acquire your own food, by your own efforts, is becoming a lost trait in what they are calling the "Post Modern World." If things get tough, and we both know they will, I'll want folks like you around.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2012/07/independence-day-2012.html

Training has to have a purpose. The more challenging the purpose, the more you put into getting the best results. Congratulations on your achievements from a rookie who is just learning.

Happy trails. Bailey should run today in the Vizsla National Gun Dog Championships. He is not a pet.

RBD


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## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

Rbd in Uk the v is an HPR gun dog for ( mainly) driven birds.
I know a guy who stalks deer with his whv but generally gun dog here does not mean hunting hound.
I know there are purists re the Hungarian pointer,no bad thing,but honestly to suggest my 'pets' could not HPR is a mistake


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Genetically they are similar but are drifting apart. I asked SAMs breeder to not train out the wild driven side. A bland Vizsla is boring. There is such a strong push to transform these dogs into good looking house cats. 
Personally, I hope they never succeed and the breed stays wild and full of energy.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Break my pups to bird at 9weeks and gun at 10 weeks - and never look back - prey driven is what I want and that begins with a well bred gun dog - just got back from PIKE's weekend SH - Sat a complete bust - Sun he ran with a V & Gsp that had just moved up to MH - he picked up 2 legs - I'm Very proud of him !!!!!! - the best complement was today when three of the judges said PIKE can hunt !!!!!!!! I never stop him from working fence lines and heavy cover on the way to the bird field - that is how we hunt in real life - moving on is up to me - PIKE has all of the natural talent and I have to guide him - first brace this morning 2 points before bird field - this afternoon 3 points before bird fields - the other two trainers kept their pups away from where we look for birds - smart move - I can not change the way we hunt - but will try to V smarter this fall !!!!!!!!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

A Vizsla is a breed. A gun dog is a proven dog, not just a bloodline. You can have a mutt thats an excellent gun dog, and a purebred that can't cut it in the field.
I'm a show me type person. If that dog will hunt, I want to see it or it better hold FC/Hunt titles before I would purchase a pup out of its litter.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Tex did you miss my POINT ? PIKE is out of pups that have proVen themselves in hunt tests and field trials - his SR47200305 - I liked it - not the top of the line - but he does HUNT !!!!!! PLEASE look it up and point me in the right direction - pros cons - I am not a breeder - VVhat do you think !!!! it matters to me and my V !!!!! What is best for the breed is BEST for Me !!! as always we are your best friends in the field - am I being nice LOL !!!!!!!!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

SOOOO Sorry REM it was in no way directed at you or PIKE. It was in response to an earlier post. I see people say their dog could or would be a good hunter, but they have no proof. You and PIKE are proving he is a hunter and his bloodline is true to the original purpose of the breed.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Tex - VVe loVe gun dogs - VVe haVe been there and done that - Ken & RBD and others are the future of the breed - this weekend there were 16 V's running out of 35+ plus pups - was just fun for Rabbit & me - PIKE VVas along for the ride because he can not driVe !!!! $160 in entry fees - goes to the AKC - Clubs - judges Etc - money VVell spent - If you can put a price on PIKE !!!!!!!!! He is PRICELESS !!!!! - VVe look forward to the Fall once again - cool days - hunting trips - birds to hand - long guns - the smell of powder in the air - stories made and stories retold - that is the life VVe lead - the majority is OFF LEAD !!!!


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

I'll take a crack at this....

To first answer the OP... I use the silent method. Rather, it's called the West/Gibbons method. Maurice Lindley and Dave Jones use it still. I don't use the word Whoa, my dogs don't know the word "sit". I try to keep everything between the bird and the dog, and leave myself out of the equation. I figure, the dog is the expert in this situation, I'd probably just screw things up. I try to express my expectations to my dogs and let them take it from there. I figure the less involved I am in the process, the less likely I am going to knock out the style of dog. That's important to me, as it indicates how much the dog is enjoying the process. Ever seen a dog hit the ground or point with a low or tucked in tail? You think that the dog is enjoying this? It works for me, but not for everyone and I respect that. 
I run them on over 1200 acres of pasture ground every day. When I train, I try to plant birds that simulate where they would likely be. Otherwise, they get exercise, and get to be dogs for a while, every day. When hunting season opens here, my goal every year, is to get my dogs hunting on the ground for thirty days, through the season. That roughly equates to hunting one every three days or so. I can be hunting thirty minutes from the house. 
So, hunting is important to me. So is field trialing. Very important. 
So much that we have a decent sized pigeon loft. (more about that later...) 

But here's the thing. 
I used to think like Mr. McCraith. That my dogs aren't pets. That I would almost look with disdain at those that didn't hunt with their vizslas. Or that they didn't hunt to my standards. 
I realized however a couple of things. 
Dogs, our vizslas ARE pets. They are first and formost, family members. They make us smile, laugh, cry, mad, and every other range of emotion that come with having vizslas as family members. I figure, that my dogs hunt, field trial more than probably 90% of all dogs out there. One year, they hunted wild birds 45 days in a season. Prairie Chickens, pheasants and gentleman Bob. (The greatest bird ever...  ) 
This does not include trials, training, running or anything of that nature. 
Yet, they are our companions, pets, family members the rest of the time. For the other two hundred days, or whatever, they are simply our buddies. 
I severely disliked what I was seeing in the breed. A division between "field lines" and "show/pet lines". I hated seeing vizslas that barely knew what a bird was, or had no desire to chase. But then I realized, maybe that is their job. To show. To make their owners happy. A companion. A family member. That is their job. 
Bottom line is this. Who am I to judge how folks use their dogs? I still don't like the division between "field lines" and "pet lines" honestly. But we all want different things. 

Quick story. 
The first time, I took Riley to a hunt test was a junior hunt test. I never had been to a hunt test, or any sort of event such as this. 
It rained all day. Riley and I waited all day. I turned Riley loose. And run he did. In fact, he ran and ran. I couldn't keep him in the bird field. He ran through it and kept on going. He would run a line on the horizon and loop back around. 
Junior hunt test, is a very basic beginner type of test. 
He was the only dog to fail the hunt test that day. To say that I was extremely disappointed is an understatement. I eventually understood what sort of dog I had. And I loved it. On the verge of being out of control, out on the edge. That's what I want. A dog that RUNS. Ranges. I want to be able to compete with pointers in AF field trials. Horseback, or walking. When my girlfriend ran my Sis dog in a HB trial in California she ran off the course. In fact, she was found standing a bird on another course by the scout. Obviously, she was picked up for being gone too long and couldn't be used. But that excites me. That is the thing that makes me smile. 

My point is this. We all have different wants for our dogs. A dog that doesn't have a lick of bird sense, doesn't excite me. But that dog might be appreciated for something else by someone else. A hunt test type dog doesn't do it for me either, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for them. I know what the level of training and time and effort it takes to get to that level. But then again, a dog that runs off, or ranges may just make others angry, but that makes me smile. I've looked down at my Garmin and have seen dogs at .8 of a mile. Probably not what folks want in a Gundog. 
We all have different wants and expectations out of our dogs.. And in the end,as long as the dog and the owner are happy, then who am I to judge?
Get the dog out. Talk them for walks, hunt tests, field trials, agility, conformation, whatever. Have fun. Enjoy each other and your company. After all, they are only here for too short of a time.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

V-j first and foremost PIKE is my lap mutt - we are lucky to hunt almost every day when the season is in - my POINT is very simple - a thousand years of breeding to have a prey driven dog - show and no go does not work for me - why would anyone change all that breeding of a V that is a lap mutt to begin with ? !!!!!!!!!


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

R said:


> V-j first and foremost PIKE is my lap mutt - we are lucky to hunt almost every day when the season is in - my POINT is very simple - a thousand years of breeding to have a prey driven dog - show and no go does not work for me - why would anyone change all that breeding of a V that is a lap mutt to begin with ? !!!!!!!!!


I am in agreement... However, people have placed different priorities in their breeding program. I've seen some crappily (is that a word?) bred vizslas out there... But once we start telling people who can breed, and what they can breed, then we have a whole lot of other issues that we would be dealing with.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,4757.0.html

V-John, not to hihjack this tread about training methods but here is a thread that was going on last year that you might enjoy.

Train with a purpose for you and the dog. Whatever that purpose is. Hopefully with the hunting trait in mind.

Happy trails and trials,
RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I feel that one of my posts on this subject was strong worded. I should have reread it before posting.
Yes I have tough opinions in some areas but I should not be trying to push them down anyone's throat.
Breeding and training go hand in hand. A pup that has been bred for a certain purpose should be easier to train for that purpose.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I love what Vjohn said regarding silent training methods. Using the repetition of the hunt and combining the dogs nature. We bow hunt deer. No birds. So a ranging dog is no good to me. 

Astro is naturally predisposed to hunt deer. He's still very birdy, but his relatively relaxed nature is a good fit. My GSP Zsa Zsa, is the opposite. Hard running and long ranging.

So how did we help both to understand what is needed to hunt Deer? We hunted as many times as we could. Repetition. No check chords, no ecollars, no leads. Just them and me and RBD's method........walking together. 

Now I have the perfect team. Her 20-30 metres out front, him 10-15 out front. What the hard charger misses, Mr laid back picks up. Both lock to point on a Deer like frozen statues. Both return to me once an arrow is nocked (loaded) into the string. I say nothing. Not a word. Practice AMD repetition have taught them without the need for chatter. They watch me like I watch them. Who is going to see/hear/smell that Deer first? It's a lottery. But odds are in their favour. We honour each others senses we honour each other's points. We work together knowing a large tasty critter is the outcome. Silence. 

When that arrow is placed on the string and they see me stalk, we come together. Then we whisper to each other......"there it is....let's watch it. Let's wait for the arrow to fly true." They remain as me until it flies, then they follow it to It's destination. Silence. 

Walking together, hunting together, learning from losing the prey and learning from getting the prey. Repetition and consistency. No fast food fixes. An understanding from us all as to what our jobs are. Why talk, or issue commands when neither speak each other's verbal language. I watch their body language, they watch mine. A nod, a hand movement, a point. That's how we speak to each other. We learned this language through repetition and consistency. Nothing else. Like Vjohn said, there behaviour is what we need and may not conform to someone's text on the way it should be. We hunt together, we play together, we eat together, we sleep together. We are bonded, we are a team, we are a family too. 

It's taken 18 months to get to this point. Not 6 weeks of training, but 18 months of mistakes, failures and now success. No fast food fixes, no boot camps, no one else' ideas interfering. But, the end result is my best friends and I know each other intimately and I now have the next 10-14 years to enjoy the results of those 18 months of repetition and consistency........... Ponder that all you fast food fixers........


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Oz - PIKE is my 4Th V - all were prey driven -feather or fur I could careless !!!!! at 4 years old & me a lot older we are still learning together - I love body & hand language as my first teaching tool - I turn my back and PIKE wants to V in front - you R right - there are no quick fixes - the other side of that is any tool used to train a pup correctly is just a step in the right direction - what I want is everyone should treat the pup with respect - how VVe go about this is not a big concern !


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