# 18 mo old male, intact - bit me (alpha owner)



## Pennylogic (Aug 28, 2020)

So, my sweet (99% of the time) Brewer bit me tonight while trying to put him to bed. I'm the main guy training, caring, feeding, disciplining, etc for him. So the fact that he had the confidence to go after me and complete the action just floored me.

He's always been somewhat of a A hole when he's really tired, So we know not to startle him, but gently lead him to his kennel for bedtim. Most of the time with a verbal command he goes straight into his Kennel. Sometimes a light tug on his collar is required, but he still goesbegrudgingly but goes.

He always moans and non-aggressive growls and never likes going to bed. two other times he aggressively went after my wife and 16 yr old daughter, but didn't bite them. Needless to say it worried me, that if I wasn't there, something bad could happen.

I travel a bit (active duty military), so trust needs to be there.

Tonight he was on our bed as he often times is, not guarding anything or anyone and I gave him the command of bed. He didn't budge and gave me the vizsla moan and groan which is typical. I went to lightly tug on his collar and he snapped and bit me on that wrist, drawing blood and leaving a nice bruise.

I'm still shocked that he did it, especially to me.

I'll contact his breeder to chat about it but thought I'd ask you helpful folks as well. Always a wealth of information here.

Other threads mention back to day one, drill sergeant, earn everything routines, which I'm ok with.

But I want to get after it right away, but in the right way so we're all feeling better about the situation.

He's also extremely hard headed, and his listening skills have diminished over the last few months. Takes longer to recall, always counter surfing, into the garbage, doesn't give a F about positive or negative reinforcement.

He was bred to hunt specifically,








field trials, etc, and I can't help but wonder if trying to make him a family dog was not in his best interests.

Quite a lot to process, but trying to give the community and idea of the situation and background on brewer.


----------



## A-arons Kodster (Sep 2, 2018)

Some people disagree with me....My Kody....Bit me once and that was it. I Mike Tysoned his ass right in the mouth....after that all I have to do is look at him if he is doing anything bad and it stops. My Kody is Field approved/trained. He is collared and loves to put his collar on as it represents playtime/Run his face off and no leash. I have my collar set on a 2 out of 10 and he responds well to recall. One thing with the collar.....I NEVER USE IT AS A FORM OF DISCIPLINE. It's your Dog....everyone has their own way of dealing with a nipping dog. This was my way....talk to the breeder see if they have a good pointer or two. Good luck









Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pennylogic (Aug 28, 2020)

Thanks, I reacted the same way. He knew it was wrong, and felt ashamed after and "apologized" for doing it.

Honest look at the situation tells me I need to up my training, be more consistent in setting boundaries, and again start from square one where he needs to earn EVERYTHING is earned. Give me jobs, not just free roam playtime at the park, etc..

Most other people thinks he's adorable (look at that face), but he's such a handful that it's overwhelming with his energy.


----------



## A-arons Kodster (Sep 2, 2018)

Pennylogic said:


> Thanks, I reacted the same way. He knew it was wrong, and felt ashamed after and "apologized" for doing it.
> 
> Honest look at the situation tells me I need to up my training, be more consistent in setting boundaries, and again start from square one where he needs to earn EVERYTHING is earned. Give me jobs, not just free roam playtime at the park, etc..
> 
> Most other people thinks he's adorable (look at that face), but he's such a handful that it's overwhelming with his energy.


If Kody isn't kept busy....He will get destructive. I am constantly find new things to challenge him. He knows I am the Alpha...he looks to me to almost puzzle him with something new often . I'm always on the lookout for a good time consuming toy for him. I too did the same after I smacked him....he came over and wanted a hug and I got down and gave him one. But that's all it took for me. My BAE wonders why he gets destructive....I tell her it's due to you NOT spending time with him....IE walking...Running....playing Etc. Just sitting on the couch doesn't count. Kody is by far the Best dog I've ever Owned period. If you put in the time they are an absolute joy. 

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

Back to square one

he needs to earn everything for a while. Be very deliberate with your reinforcement and what he is allowed to have. Prevent guarding. He needs to know boundaries are earned. He’s young… if you nip it in the bud it’ll probably be ok

Is he hunting? Sounds like he needs work to do


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Sometimes when we say a dog is really stubborn. What we are really saying is, We have not found the correct training technique to fit the dog. Each dog learns slightly different, and temperament is slightly different, so it easy for this to happen. Most of us are amateur trainers, and have these dogs as pets. Whether we do other things with them, they are pets first.
So when something isn’t working, we need to look for a different way of training it.
I do it all the time in the field with my dogs. If my dog is having a problem, I set up different training scenarios. If I’m still having a problem, a lot of time I will think about it for a day. Do I go with more reps, or do I need to change the scenario? Possibly take a step back. Read up on it, or even ask a pro. While this is field work that I’m doing. The same approach needs to be taken when it comes to at home obedience. If something is not working, it’s not working. We can’t keep repeating the same action, and expect a different outcome.


----------



## Pennylogic (Aug 28, 2020)

All great points, thank you.

Yes, back to square one earning everything. He woke up this morning to a different world and is already realizing that he messed up and things are changing. He (as are all V's) is a very smart dog and he'll get it, I just need to put in the time! 

I haven't hunted with him yet due to a knee surgery, but he gets field work in our close dog training area. He also went through an 8 week hunt training with his breeder who is great with V's, hunting and field trial work and he does well with all of it. 

It just seems in the house/yard/around people he doesn't have boundaries (my fault for slacking) so we'll work on those things so he's more pleasant to be around.

My oldest son doesn't bring his great dane here anymore because Brewer is so hyper, and although he never outwardly told me this, putting the puzzle together now makes sense!

MTF...


----------



## Pogaca (Dec 17, 2021)

I would not actually think much of incidents that does not form an habit. My belief is that doggie discipline is more "family" like rather than the good old dominance theory. It would remind me of my times being a nasty teenager and hurting my parents' feelings, more than you loosing trust and control over your dog. I was got bitten during quartering practice where my dog was relatively free to have his space and was simply encouraged to move back and forth. To be honest, I was also bit shocked at first why he would purposely tease me like that, but we may never know why they did the things they did as they cannot talk (maybe he saw sth that he was scared of, maybe he pointed at sth and i ignored etc etc, we do not know) . I immediately called the day off and tried being more relaxed about it the next time. He displayed more calm behavior afterwards. I think most dog owners get a bit stressed when the dog misbehaves or refuses to listen, and it does not translate well to the dog. I believe in being calm and relaxed but not giving into the dog's demanding behavior at the same time sends a better message. That is "you will not have your way and the way you act will not be helpful for getting a reaction from me"

P. S. I am not stating that OP was not calm, I have no idea of his demeanor during the interaction. Just leaving my humble opinion if anyone else has the same problem and is getting a bit frustrated about it.


----------



## Gabica (Jan 20, 2018)

On top of all points above with revisiting/ reintroducing training of the dog and yourself and your family and using calmness as leadership quality instead of aggressive dominance i would look at one more angle, any possible physical pain your dog is / was having. most of these guys like to disguise it (mother nature taught to them as a survival skill not to look weak), so it often requires some digging in, like blood and urinework, chiropractor visit etc. And talking to your breeder is always a good idea, they maybe know some of the things you would not without consulting them.


----------



## Pennylogic (Aug 28, 2020)

I talked with the breeder this morning about it, and he said this litter hasn't had any problems like this. He gave me some great advice, in line with the above suggestions so I feel much better about turning this around and getting both Brewer and us back on track!

I'll post progress as we go along hoping to help anyone with similar situations.


----------



## rchik43 (Apr 12, 2020)

My dog , 20 month male , started growling and nipping at my hand if I try to move him by holding the collar when he is on our bed. I can understand how this can easily make the owner upset as it did me and you can have an impulsive reaction and the dog may respond to that and it can escalate. Not sure if I did the right thing … but I decided to not try to grab and pull him by the collar , but just calmly put a short line on him and then pulled him off the bed … it seemed to have worked … and reduced the risk of escalating the situation. Seems like this is a common behavior at this age, especially them objecting to getting moved off the bed


----------



## Dan_A (Jan 19, 2021)

I’m no pro but to me I would feel the dog doesn’t respect the leadership structure in the household and it giving it a go being assertive himself. The fact that prior to the bite he has been giving increasing signs at bedtime. Back to basics and maybe even some prong collar training. He needs to have a healthy fear (not dominating) , but similar to how a child would. Maintain mutual respect with the dog at all times and zero tolerance for very bad behavior with consistence responses.


----------



## Pennylogic (Aug 28, 2020)

Agreed and thank you for the post. We're back to basics and he is quickly understanding that things have changed in the household. We'll see how long it takes him to learn his place in the family/hierarchy.


----------



## Tgrayy7 (Oct 2, 2021)

Pennylogic said:


> So, my sweet (99% of the time) Brewer bit me tonight while trying to put him to bed. I'm the main guy training, caring, feeding, disciplining, etc for him. So the fact that he had the confidence to go after me and complete the action just floored me.
> 
> He's always been somewhat of a A hole when he's really tired, So we know not to startle him, but gently lead him to his kennel for bedtim. Most of the time with a verbal command he goes straight into his Kennel. Sometimes a light tug on his collar is required, but he still goesbegrudgingly but goes.
> 
> ...


Our V has snarled at us a few times before bed also. He mainly does it when he is in a deep sleep and we try to physically move him off the couch/bed.

What we’ve seen has helped is if we wake him up enough to know his surroundings and then use a command to get him to get off the couch rather than forcefully trying to move him when he’s sleeping.

From what I’ve gathered these dogs are super smart but also super sensitive. He is a huge cuddler and does great with any kid that we’ve been around. (Beyond the jumping) He plays basketball with us, loves swimming, his ball, and just about anything active. The more you can tire him out the better. My point being, very sweet and lovable but same issue with sleeping.


----------



## miccola03 (Apr 26, 2014)

I personally feel there is a lot of conflict going on here when what is mainly needed is to establish trust.

A hands-off approach may work best by showing him what we want him to do but using more brain and less physical intervention. 

In other words, it's time for bed? Prepare a stuffed frozen Kong (like just his kibble he would have to eat anyway for dinner, wet it with some water and then freeze it), place it in the crate or exercise pen and let him enjoy that. If he was crate trained using positive methods he should happily go. Chewing helps dogs relax and next a nap will likely follow. Win win!

Many dogs are cranky before going to sleep, they just lack an off switch and if you had to correct him in the past for refusing to nap or going in the kennel, believe it or not, that could likely have easily turned nap time into big conflict time, further exacerbating things and making it more difficult for him to enter a relaxed state. 
Help him make good choices!

If making a Kong is too much work, simply get a long-lasting chew (like a bully stick you give only in the evening), say "kennel" toss the bully stick there as he rushes in say good boy!, close the kennel, and done. No conflict, no commanding, no need to lead. He goes on his own.

Another strategy if you want to build anticipation? This is my favorite with some dogs I train who aren't too eager to be kenneled. Place the bully stick in there with the crate closed. That'll build in him great anticipation, to the point that he'll be the one pleading you to open the door! Open it, tell him good boy as he enters and close the crate, easy peasy.

I also suggest keeping the kennel open during the day so that he can visit it every now and then. Let him find some toys in there or surprise him with a kibble here and there so he associates it with a lovely place to be. He may even decide to sleep in there on his own. 

If he goes on the couch, no tugging and commanding off in an intimidating tone, that will continue creating an adversarial relationship making him tense and wanting to bite. Hands off. Say off and toss a kibble on the ground. Then place bulky stuff on the couch so he no longer goes. There are several products they sell online that help dogs from climbing on couches. I would avoid anything that emits shocks and stick to the ones that are like sheets of plastic with the spikey parts up. Many dogs will not like to jump there. I personally use, upside down chairs. 

We want to avoid him from getting into the habit of wanting to bite to keep your hands off the collar as in the case when he's on the couch. This can turn problematic one day when we need to get a hold of our dogs fast. I teach puppy owners in classes to love collar grabs by associating them with getting food and toys to avoid this negative mindset of "I defensively bite to keep your hands away." You may need a pro to help you counter-condition the collar grab for safety. 

I hope this helps, please look up the whole dominance and alpha dog myths and how they can make dogs more aggressive paving the path for an adversarial relationship. Look up the AVSAB's position statements on Dominance.

Sure, some of the harsher corrective methods work, but we are just shutting the dog into a state of learned helplessness when instead we want a relationship based on trust. My relationship with my Rottweiler changed from bad to better and then to awesome that day my Rottie growled at me and I understood he was just pleading me to use kinder methods than collar grabs and intimidating tones. Even big and powerful dogs like Rotties do better with more gentle methods. 

Just my two cents. I know many may not agree with this, but so far this has worked best for me in my 15 years of training dogs.


----------



## Kpl (Aug 30, 2020)

Pennylogic said:


> So, my sweet (99% of the time) Brewer bit me tonight while trying to put him to bed. I'm the main guy training, caring, feeding, disciplining, etc for him. So the fact that he had the confidence to go after me and complete the action just floored me.
> 
> He's always been somewhat of a A hole when he's really tired, So we know not to startle him, but gently lead him to his kennel for bedtim. Most of the time with a verbal command he goes straight into his Kennel. Sometimes a light tug on his collar is required, but he still goesbegrudgingly but goes.
> 
> ...





Pogaca said:


> I would not actually think much of incidents that does not form an habit. My belief is that doggie discipline is more "family" like rather than the good old dominance theory. It would remind me of my times being a nasty teenager and hurting my parents' feelings, more than you loosing trust and control over your dog. I was got bitten during quartering practice where my dog was relatively free to have his space and was simply encouraged to move back and forth. To be honest, I was also bit shocked at first why he would purposely tease me like that, but we may never know why they did the things they did as they cannot talk (maybe he saw sth that he was scared of, maybe he pointed at sth and i ignored etc etc, we do not know) . I immediately called the day off and tried being more relaxed about it the next time. He displayed more calm behavior afterwards. I think most dog owners get a bit stressed when the dog misbehaves or refuses to listen, and it does not translate well to the dog. I believe in being calm and relaxed but not giving into the dog's demanding behavior at the same time sends a better message. That is "you will not have your way and the way you act will not be helpful for getting a reaction from me"
> 
> P. S. I am not stating that OP was not calm, I have no idea of his demeanor during the interaction. Just leaving my humble opinion if anyone else has the same problem and is getting a bit frustrated about it.


I agree with Pagoca- my 18 mo old male is the same. He hasn’t broken skin but has nipped at us in the same exact situation- very tired, being put to bed, having been taken by the collar. He does not behave that way at any other time. I wouldn’t rock his world, just change your approach to that situation till he understands it’s non negotiable. Using the leash works for us, he doesn’t even “grumble”. We know from other posts that this is a particular trigger for V’s- when they’re tired and don’t want to go to bed or be moved off a couch or whatever, they will resist. Obviously biting is something we don’t want, but I think he’s being an adolescent more than anything else. I personally don’t think being bored has anything to do with this.


----------



## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

I've had four males through the years. All of them had at one point, needed a "wall to wall conversation". In all of them it happened at between the 16 and 20 months period.
I did not beat them, or abuse them, but the physical presence was there. Their world got flipped in a second.
Alpha dominance training will not work long term with a Vizsla. They will fight it. There needs to be a clear hierarchy, but they need to be involved in the "decision making process". Not capitulated to, but involved.
All discipline must be void of emotion. Address it, correct it, and move on. Don't belabor it, or extend the discipline. You have about 10 seconds max time. After that, it's wasted emotion and breath, and the dog is learning nothing. This is how they correct each other.
Males, seem to go through a period where they "make you prove it.". I don't know why, but in me experience it starts at about the 16 month mark and goes for about 6-8 months. They can flat out make a person angry. It seems though that at about the 2 year mark, they stop the nonsense to a large degree and revert back to just a nice dog to be around. Challenging at times, but nice. It doesn't matter if they're neutered, or not. It just something that seems to have to play out.
All of my dogs have come from some pretty high powered lines. They've all for the most part, been rock and rollers, and amazing dogs to hunt with. My girl Tika was the lone exception.


----------

