# Do pack dynamics alter as the pack matures?



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I am interested in hearing your thoughts. I am watching as Astro matures and am noticing a slight altering of the relationship dynamics with him and Ozkar. Previously, Ozkar was dominant, but lately, what I am seeing, is an almost equal billing with them. Astro won't back down and neither will Ozkar, yet neither is escalating things into a fight. Just a constant movement of bodies with each trying to gain the upper hand. 

I am watching this change with interest. I have seen new dog in the pack alterations to behaviour, but not changes with the same pack as they grow up, so this will be interesting to see what the end result will be. 

An example was just now, Astro would not let Ozkar on his bed with him. Zsa Zsa is on there and there is still plenty of room, but Astro just gave growl and pretty much told him nope, your not welcome on my bed!!  

So who's seen this before and what were your experiences?


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## hobbsy1010 (Jun 4, 2011)

Hi Ozkar,

Got a friend who walks with us, who owns 2no. Weimaraner brothers (B---- & S-----) age five now. About two years ago He went for a long weekend break away in Holland, leaving his two boys with a retired Police dog handler at his kennels. I should say at this point that the dogs were kenneled together as they are at home. On the first morning of his holiday/break he received a call from the kennel owner telling him that there had been trouble with his dogs overnight and one (S-----) had had his ear severrely bitten by it's sibling, so bad was the bite that the vet was called to stitch the bite because it wouldn't stop bleeding!
Nothing he could do while on his hols but when he got back he was really shocked to see the extent of the bite, almost half of S-----'s ear had gone, in a halfmoon shaped,stitched all the way around.
A couple of weeks passed and he decided to get some advice from a pro dog behaviourist as he had noticed a change of 'dynamics' between the two brothers.
The out come was after deliberation that the dog that had received the bite S----- should be castrated as there was a clear 
confusion between the two brothers of who is the 'Top dog'.
So this was the line that was taken and now two years on when we walk with them, they are in there own little 'Bubble' competing with each other but no aggression towards each other since!!



Hobbsy1010


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Even if there is a change in pack order, most of the time the dogs will work it out themselves after a few scuffles. As long as the fights don't lead to a vet visit I leave them alone. Its when they can't figure out the pack order that the real fights begin.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Ozkar,

With two males and one female, my thought is that Zsa Zsa will be looked on by the males as one of *their* possessions. The bed incident may be showing you signs of that.

Bailey has known two Vizslas for over 3 years. Both are a little older. The last "fight" Bailey was in was when the mother of the two Vizslas got and kept Bailey's attention during a hill walk together. (earlier post about the incident a couple months ago.)

One of the sons did the "mount" move on Bailey. Bailey is much bigger and stronger than O---- and O--- knows it, but when "O---'s female" was involved, the dynamics change from what I witnessed.

Just my thoughts.

RBD


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

A friend of mine has two Vizslas, 2 years age difference. 

She saw the exact same behavior from her older Vizsla as you describe - as the youngster was maturing and becoming larger and more confident, the older V was becoming more protective of whatever resource it had at that moment. This lady saw it for the first time when the older V suddenly started growling one evening in order to prevent the younger V to get on the bed. 

Lee Charles Kelley suggests this "growling" is anxiety over resource, i.e. it's simple resource guarding (resting place, toys, etc), and it most often occurs in multi-dog situations as the younger dogs grow up and become more capable of claiming/defending possession.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Just wondering, is Ozkar more stable than Astro, in general? Age difference aside, does Ozkar handle everyday situations differently, perhaps in a more stable way?

------------- 
I find (as per RBD's blog - on inact dogs), my V, left intact, is more stable and is wondering why the other dogs (usually, neutered males) are more apprehensive. 
Interesting, females, even though spayed, don't seem to care much but neutered males are the ones that know something was taken from them and act with aggression or growl at my V (only 1 year old). My V is understanding and submissive to all fearful dogs, even small ones.

There is a miniature poodle (intact male) goes by the name "Diesel". My V is huge in comparison but when we meet and usually walk for 30 min in the woods we always wonder how well behaved they are. A couple of looks, smells and the order is established.... our V is younger and will respect Diesel ;D
We met an intact Husky, the only sign of pack order ranking lasted for 1 second. A deep, short, very faint growl from the Husky and we all knew not to mess around and especially, not pee where he pees ;D


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Hey Datacan, here is how it is......

Ozkar, Male Entire, 15 months of age. Not really daunted by too much. Isn't dominant to other dogs, but will not let them dominate him. He will stand his ground, dodge, swerve, weave, jump and body slam but won't bite. If he does, it's only ever the mouth over the top of the back of the neck. Which is hey....I'm above you here...get the message. But he is never outwardly dominant.

Astro, Male neutered, 12 months old (Tomorrow..woohoo, happy 1st b'thday Astro boy!), Not fazed by much, a lot more calm dog than Ozkar is. Best way to describe it, all be it crudely, is Ozkar runs down to the paddock to shag a bitch, Astro (If he had nuts) would walk down and shag them all!  He's way more laid back. But, similarly, he also while not outwardly dominant, will not allow another dog to intimidate him. As I previously mentioned, where Ozkar backed down from the aggressive Staffy, Astro, popped it on it's butt! 

Zsa Zsa is 20 months and is the behind the scenes pack leader really. Sure, she lets the boys get on top of her in rough play. They are bigger and stronger. But, when she says it's time to stop.....they stop! She is submissive to most other dogs, but not submissive with the boys. 

BTW, I am in no way concerned about it. It will sort itself out as these heirachial things tend to do. However, I was interested to hear from others as to how within their own pack, things may have altered as the pups grew into dogs. Not so much with external interactions. 

There is a dominant bitch who we go for walks with regularly. She is partdingo, part staffy, part heeler. It's a really dangerous mix. Dingo's are an odd sort of dog. Sneaky dogs. The sort of dog that would wait for a split second when another dogs attention was elsewhere and take the opportunity to surprise attack them. She is only Kelpie size, so she normally doesn't do much damage. But, she tries to dominate the boys constantly and neither will accept it. Astro doesn't snap at her, her just turns his body around and pushed her off, Ozkar does a flip and snaps at her. 

Zsa Zsa accepts her dominance, doesn't worry about it and has a great time.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

I've always found that when we've had a bitch and other pack members were introduced, either dogs or bitches, the original bitch would remain the pack leader or "matriarch". As a kid we had a diminutive whippet (bitch) calling the shots over a very large intact lurcher (dog), a feisty lakeland terrier/staffie cross (dog) and my old faithful black lab (dog) and my mum's Alsatian (bitch)...none of them crossed the line with Ru-ok, the old whippet.


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## hobbsy1010 (Jun 4, 2011)

Wishing *ASTRO a very happy 1St Birthday from the Hobbsy Gang and have a great day all!!!

Any Special 'treats' or plans to celebrate???

Hobbsy   *


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Yes, he will get a special breakfast with some egg and some tuna. As well, I have a big juicy lamb bone as a special treat. ;D I think he is having a growth spurt. I caught him eating from the bin last night for the first time ever. It was 4.30am and I could hear the sound of bone being crunched. I came out to find he had got his nose into the bin and removed a Lamb chop bone from last nights dinner. I don't let them have cooked bones, so I removed it, and took the bin out  Poor little fella must have been extra hungry.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

,,,seem to be wandering off topic folks,,,,


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

harrigab said:


> ,,,seem to be wandering off topic folks,,,,


Your just miffed because nobody replied to your post!!! ;D.... Go off and do some real moderating work will you!! I am sure there is someone swearing around here somewhere......if not let me know and I can kick it all off!!


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Happy birthday to Astro... from Sam (1 on Feb23)


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

Ozkar said:


> harrigab said:
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> > ,,,seem to be wandering off topic folks,,,,
> ...


some silly so and so has been trolling on another forum that I moderate, so yes I guess I was a bit wound up,,,but slept since then ;D


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

bump
 I don't think you are in need of advice, especially from me (I think prong collars, short 1' leashes are the answer to all behavioral issues). 
But, according to my cousin (he dealt with as many as 3 hard dogs at once), pack dynamics in house dogs are controlled and set by us. 
Same rules apply, wether one, two or six dogs are under the watchful eye of the human pack leader. 
The trick with more dogs is correcting the right dog. The growling dog may not be the instigator. 
Growling in the presence of the human (benevolent) pack leader is not allowed.

In any case, I don't think I'll ever care for multiple dods at a time. The responsibility and the learning curve is too much. 
I suspect you could easily write a book, with your accumulated knowledge 8)


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

harrigab said:


> Ozkar said:
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> > harrigab said:
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Glad to hear we have Happy Harrigab back again!   

Datacan, I really would never feel qualified enough to write anything. Plus, My methods are not for everyone. I learnt most of this of my grandfather and I somehow doubt there would be much real interest in modern society as it takes a lot more time to complete training. But thanks for the compliment mate. :-[


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

Ozkar said:


> harrigab said:
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> > Ozkar said:
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yep, I banned the bugger in the end ;D ;D


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

So just to get the moderator back on topic before I have him ban himself.....  I've got Ozkar today and tomorrow, so am watching more diligently than usual just to see if I can work out what's going on. As I said, there is no fighting, it's just I see Astro's behaviour maturing I guess and thus see the dynamics altering. How they alter, time will tell I guess. But, interfering is not on my agenda. They will work out who's who in the zoo pretty soon. 

They all adore each other, so that makes it easier. But it is Astro's growth and physical size now that is making Ozkar sit up and think a little. Now when they all play, instead of poor little Astro being the 3rd wheel and getting left behind, he now has the same strength and endurance as well as being the largest of the three, so can throw his weight around in a rumble a little more. 

Yesterday while out walking, Zsa Zsa and Astro and a friend's dog were all playing. Astro and Zsa Zsa crossed paths in full flight accidentally, all be it probably Zsa Zsa's fault as she HATES to lose a game of ANYTHING. But, when they clashed, Zsa Zsa gave a yelp as she flew through the air and landed on her side. I heard the wind get knocked out of her and she came straight away and sat underneath my legs. It hurt her the poor girl. But Astro barely felt it and just kept playing with the other dog. I think he was oblivious to what happened to Zsa Zsa. 

He no longer allows my friend's bitch to dominate him like he used to. He's been friends with this bitch since coming home to me 6 months ago, so knows her well. But has always been submissive to her. Not so anymore. He once again won't attack her, he just won't allow her to dominate him. She can get very aggressive this bitch. She has dingo in her which can make them unstable, but she also has the added factor of Heeler blood, which worsens it again. But, she knows not to mess with either Astro or Ozkar, as both have put her on her arse when she has tried to dominate them. Again, nothing more than body slams and mouthing. But it settles this dog straight away and she gets back to playing. 

Zsa Zsa is submissive to her though....to a certain point...then Zsa Zsa will also sit her on her arse  Zsa Zsa is such a sweet little girl. Girls are way more polite with manners than boys in general. I think the next Vizsla I get, I would like a Bitch. It will be a nice change from all the testosterone in this house when I have both boys!


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

good for Asto. I find boy V dogs are rough, sensitive and always ready to give 100%.
For the some reason girl pups always go first, leaving the breeders with the males (at least our breeder). 

Never had a girl dog but took care of friend's girls more than once. Very soft, and feel like if I pick them up they break like a porcelain vase.
I prefer male dogs, rough and insensitive....oops they are sensitive and thoughtfull. 
LOVE to play hard and wrestle with my Sam. After, just relax and use him as headrest or body warmer while watching movies.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Datacan, your way wrong with the love to play hard comment about girls. Zsa Zsa is tiny compared to Astro and Ozkar. She more than holds her own and when the time comes, sits both boys on their butts quick smart   Trust, me, it's what's in between the ears, not the legs that is important!!  

I actually find boys to be more sensitive than girls as a general rule. Zsa Zsa is way more independant. OK, she is a pointer, not a Vizsla, but the differences between the two are minor from my experiences in temperament terms.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

datacan said:


> good for Asto. I find boy V dogs are rough, sensitive and always ready to give 100%.
> For the some reason girl pups always go first, leaving the breeders with the males (at least our breeder).
> 
> Never had a girl dog but took care of friend's girls more than once. Very soft, and feel like if I pick them up they break like a porcelain vase.
> ...


The 'soft' thing is probably more in your head than reality. I feel the same way about babies. 
Female dogs are just as wiley and rough as males. I wrestle mine, and never fear that I'll hurt her. Her bones are hard and she's made me step back after our heads have butt hard. She continues on like nothing has happened... lol


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Ozkar said:


> I actually find boys to be more sensitive than girls as a general rule. Zsa Zsa is way more independant. OK, she is a pointer, not a Vizsla, but the differences between the two are minor from my experiences in temperament terms.


That's exactly what the breeder said, girls are more independent. She said we can pick any boy in the litter - girls sold even before born ??? Same with the GSD, male no one wanted. Same with our mouse hunter cat, male, no one picked. 
Cousin's GSDs all male living out their retirement in piece and harmony. 
So no real experience with girls, happy to read they tough and resilient as well.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I have 3 females and one male in the house. As puppies if my male got hurt he would run to momma. The girls they would just shake it off. Now that does not mean they don't want the same attention. I have one female that tends to be on the jealous side, and she will try to block or wiggle between me and another dog. I just pet and praise the other dog when she tries this. She will go lay down and give them the stink eye.


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