# Agression?! What to do?



## Bee32 (Feb 26, 2012)

Hi, I have nearly 7 months old boy vizsla. Couple of months ago he started to growl (snapped few times) at my two sons and sometimes myself when he is being picked up or when we try to cuddle with him! He has also started to growl when touched while eating. :-\ He has stopped eating dry food therefore we've added a bit of wet food for extra flavor which he really likes.

These are the only times he gets like this, other than that he is very friendly dog.

He is also a bit unsure around other dogs,even though we've started to socialize him at very young age. Saying that he's been oing better lately and will initiate play.

Walks are good, comes to us when called, knows basic commands and more. Asks to go out for toilet. Stays in crate when left alone.

Can you please give me advice on this issue? Im really not sure where we've gone wrong?!

Thanks


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/06/nothing-in-life-is-free-training-method.html

Bee32, I'd start here with nothing in life is free training with your 7 month old. He is entering an age where he is moving out of puppyhood into what would be the "tween" years. He will be trying to figure out where he fits in the pack. As a pup he knew he was the bottom dog. Now as he is growing bigger and stronger he might be seeing if he is above your boys and even where he ranks with you.

Time to turn up the heat. He has to learn he is now and will always be the bottom dog in your pack.

You and your boys should be able to put your hand in the dogs food bowl ANYTIME you want. The dog owns nothing and every thing he gets he has to earn. Your kids and you have to be consistant and strong. Otherwise your Vizsla will be unhappy.

Good luck.
RBD


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Bee try this with the pup out of the room where u feed him put your hand in the bowl and have the pup come in if he growls remove the bowl-keep trying this untill he learns you control the food-when it comes 2 him not wanting 2 b touched ignore him-praise him when he wants your attention-he will soon learn that the family are the alpha leaders


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

If his aggression doesn't improve after working with him on the NILIF program you might consider having him neutered. It won't fix your problem but it can help with continued training.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Cutting his nuts off won't always fix it. Often it won't change as it's not a hormonal thing, it's a "where do I fit in in the pack" thing.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Never said it would fix the problem. Aggressive males are more likely to be aggressive if a female comes into heat around them. They have even been known to guard the female from other family members. Doesn't have to be your female it can be one in a neighbors yard. Having kids in the house would be my main concern.

If the dog does have a dominance problem that leads to aggression then he should never be bred, there for making his nuts of no use.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Won't always fix the training problem either. The most sensible solution is to put in some time with the dog! I find that is a great fix for most issues. Most issues are caused from a lack of consistent and repetitive training. I have a male of each gender..... one with....one without.... the one without is way more aggressive and self confident than the entire male. He's also no less or more easy to train. 



I guess I should just but out on any conversations with removing nuts, using prongs or E's!!!   You all know my thoughts on these things by now, so I suppose my replies are somewhat academic.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

[quote author=Ozkar link=topic=3730.msg25909#msg25909 date=1330234975

I guess I should just but out on any conversations with removing nuts, using prongs or E's!!!   You all know my thoughts on these things by now, so I suppose my replies are somewhat academic. 
[/quote]


No need to but out, I'm pretty thick skinned and someone having a problem should be able to hear more than just one option. I stated If the aggression doesn't improve after training.
Ive owned quite a few dogs in my lifetime and have owned one that was dominate. He could and would get aggressive if not handled properly. He would have probably been put down by most people but I choose to keep and work with him.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Hi, Bee32, and welcome to the forums! The resource guarding can be addressed by having you and your two sons, alternately, feed your Vizsla boy by hand, one piece at a time. It makes it a little clearer to the dog where the food comes from, and who owns it. The growling and snapping just cannot be tolerated. You must make it very clear to him that this is unacceptable behavior. Also, at his age, keep up the socialization, and maybe even increase it. He sounds like a good dog, alright, and you just need to be sure he knows who's the boss (ie., not him).


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## finch (Sep 19, 2011)

Another approach to the resource guarding, used in positive reinforcement training, is to walk up to your dog's bowl while he is eating and toss little treats into the bowl with his food. Taking the dog's food away if he growls is teaching him to tolerate you, vs. giving him something extra special teaches him that people are welcome to touch his food any time they want b/c he gets something good from it. This also works if they are guarding with marrow bones, bully sticks, other high value treats - don't just take it is away. Take it away, give him something special in return and then give him the marrow bone back after he waits patiently for it. You can also do this just with regular toys that he is allowed to chew on. Doing this training helps when he ends up with something in his mouth that he shouldn't have... he'll more readily give it up if he thinks he will get something and might get the original thing back. He won't get it back 100% of the time, but he doesn't know that!


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## Lindsey1420 (Jan 28, 2012)

Jack just started this. I went to take his bone away and he growled and snapped at me. I was so surprised amd shocked. He then did it again to my newphew who just went to pet him, but while he was eating his favorite treat. I dont like this at all. He never snaps or growls when I put my hand in the bowl, just eats faster. So then I have to slow him down. 

Now when I give him his favorite treat I hold it while he eats on it, take it away for about 5 seconds, and then hold it again while eating it. When he is about half way done I leave him all to himself with the treat. It seems to be working for now. What do ya all think?

Btw, I took his treat from him that first time b/c he is in between small and medium dingo bones. The smalls are just too small for him and the medium are too big. So, I let him eat half of the medium and save the other half for next time.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

OK, you need serious help and just adding treats and taking food away won't fix the issue. 
I see what some refer to as a breakdown in leadership.

You may need someone to show you how to handle beginning stages of aggression. A dog trainer with experience will do. 
The sooner you seek help the better.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

This situation has built up over a longer time. Perhaps the beginning stages were months ago.

My V barked at us and even snapped numerous times when he was 4 months old. 
I crated the dog as soon as it did that. Only opened the door when he was calm and collected. 

Do you have a crate big enough for him? I used a wire crate, it makes noise if I shake it a little. Every time he barked at me I would shake the crate and sit down in front of the dog, just looking at him directly. Dogs don't like to look directly at us. When they look at us and the ears go back it is a sign of submission. 
When the dog is calm I opened the crate door and hand fed him piece by piece. That was the way he got fed until I was able to put my hand in his kibble bowl and stick my face next to his while eating.
I also put my fingers regularly in his mouth while eating, this is a must for hunting dogs. They must accept fingers in the mouth and must tolerate human contact.
I stroked him, sat beside him, touched his tail, stroked it upward while he ate.

What this approach yielded, in my case, I now have a one year old (Feb 23) V that I can feed RMBs (raw meaty bones) and he will not challenge *us* (my family or any other human, even a child).

May work for you but please consult a professional, if possible before attempting corrective measures.


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

A dog is napping on a couch, has no reason to believe it's not allowed there. The owner comes by, grabs the dog and carries it somewhere else, out of the blue, from the dog's perspective. It's called disturbance while resting. I wouldn't like it either.

A dog is enjoying a bone the owner gave it, when suddenly people appear and attempt to touch the dog's head or take the bone away, when, from a dog's perspective it has done nothing wrong.

There are two questions here - what is the appropriate level of respect for a dog and how to prevent aggressive responses to what the dog likely considers an unfair intrusion.

For the couch situation, I would recommend teaching getting on and off on command (Hup and Off) and only using voice to control the dog in the future, not grabbing it. Teaching this to a level where the dog obeys will create the owner leadership.

For food guarding, I'd suggest stopping all chasing games, when people run after the dog, and traing the dog that if a human approaches while it's eating it means the dog will get something. Not lose something. Loss of "something" very valuable to the dog causes resource guarding behavior, 99.9% of the time.

An old technique is to divide the meal between two bowls and do sit-stay before each. Teaching impulse control is great (there's a video on YouTube of a V waiting for OK with a piece of kibble on its nose). I agree with the NILIF approach others suggested and preventive training at puppy age is best. If you train your dog that surrendering things doesn't mean an uncontrollable loss of resource, you create a win-win.

Good luck.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

polkan said:


> A dog is napping on a couch, has no reason to believe it's not allowed there. The owner comes by, grabs the dog and carries it somewhere else, out of the blue, from the dog's perspective. It's called disturbance while resting. I wouldn't like it either.
> 
> A dog is enjoying a bone the owner gave it, when suddenly people appear and attempt to touch the dog's head or take the bone away, when, from a dog's perspective it has done nothing wrong.


==========

1. Any house pet (dog, cat, gerbil, ferret...etc) has senses more refined than us, humans. They know we approach them, even before we get there. I was never able to sneak up on any sleeping house pet (unless they are very sick). They know we are there and our smell tells them who is there. They even sense air movement better than us.
Picking up a properly house trained dog is not an issue. Any family member can do it, or should confidently expect be able to do it. 
It is a leadership issue. 

2. Bones are not possessed by the dog. The human has the authority and should expect to take away, with confidence, anything from the dog's mouth. In the dog world possession translates to about 90% of ownership. But no subordinate dog will ever challenge a pack leader's authority unless the time or opportunity has come.

Being a leader doesn't mean having to physically challenge every dog in the pack. Confidence, skill and knowing we are in control play a big part. We have tricks like positive (adding to the environment, pleasure) and negative (taking away from dog's environment, pleasure) enforcements.
Neither of them means beating the dog in any way!

Most common positive enforcements are giving treats (adding to the dog's pleasure, in this case) or giving the dog a toy (adding the toy to the environment)
Negative enforcement, on the other hand, is taking away something like his freedom (crating, putting the dog back on lead) 
In modern dog training a combination of both is present.

Just clearing up some common misconceptions. Please excuse if it sounds simplistic. Hardest thing is to put words to thoughts, IMO.


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Datacan: I disagree with a one of your points. 

A dog is not a slave, it deserves respect and even the most subordinate wolves in the wild have something called rightful possession that's respected by others in higher social higherarchy. 

You say that a dog doesn't own the bone. Do you think the dog thinks the same way while it has it? I'm sure the dog thinks the bone belongs to it. An owner gave it to the dog, after all.

To me, NILIF isn't about who owns the bone. It is about reinforcing the leadership (not dominance!) of the owner, when even if/when a dog does own something it will willingly give it up on command.

I think too often the mindset is about proving to the dog it owns nothing (and, by logical extension, has no rights). It changes the nature of the bond and I disagree with it.

Be that as it may, my points was the following:

- no dog will like doing what it doesn't want to do. Such as being moved while resting or having a bone taken away. 

- a properly trained dog, however, will respond to and accept what the owner wants, without objection. A untrained dog will simply show reactive behavior (guarding, annoyance)

The trick is how to teach (not force) the dog to do it


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> I think too often the mindset is about proving to the dog it owns nothing (and, by logical extension, has no rights). It changes the nature of the bond and I disagree with it.


Polkan,

The dog owns nothing and has no rights. The dog is a dog. Rights for dogs? Really?
Maybe I have to respect the rights of every deviant subgroup in society by law but dog's rights?

Respect - yes. Food and shelter - yes. Rights - no way.

The OP was asking for help with an agressive dog. NO RIGHTS. They are dangerous with a agressive dog.

RBD


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

polkan said:


> A dog is not a slave, it deserves respect and even the most subordinate wolves in the wild have something called rightful possession that's respected by others in higher social higherarchy.
> 
> You say that a dog doesn't own the bone. Do you think the dog thinks the same way while it has it? I'm sure the dog thinks the bone belongs to it. An owner gave it to the dog, after all.
> 
> To me, NILIF isn't about who owns the bone. It is about reinforcing the leadership (not dominance!) of the owner, when even if/when a dog does own something it will willingly give it up on command.


A dog is not a human, this is a misconception and thinking in human terms confuses and I dare say make the dog's life pretty miserable.

I cannot explain it better than this guy. Please listen to his commentary carefully, easecially 8:30min into the video when his wife reaches in and takes the paper from the bone. 
http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm

NILF is simply an exercise that in human terms establishes leadership. You can bypass NILF - for instance not ask to sit before going out and still have a dog that listens. Or not bother asking the dog to sit or lie down before you hand over the bone. How would the puppies in video fit into the NILF program? Sit before they eat and they will play nice? That is what the Ed is asking.

NILF is important to me and I practice a form of it constantly (I think it increases the dog's concentration and patience). I ask for longer sit, longer eye contact, longer stay...from time to time. 

====
Interestingly, Korea doesn't have leash laws. Dogs are allowed to interact with humans off leash all the time. There is no rule, no one is asking the dogs to adhere to NILF and the dogs attain pretty high IQs just by being around people. 
I have seen footage of Dobermans with no formal training to speak of, off leash, following the owner everywhere not bothering anyone. 
What gives?


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I have been reading this one with delight!!! Great thread. The best bit about this thread is there are things to take out of everyone's posts. You all have really valid points of views and the differences in reality are terminology, comprehension of words and at the end of the day some fine hair splitting.

A benevolent pack leader, would never take a bone away from a sub. But, the sub knows that if it wanted to, there would be a reason and to allow it. 

As to rights i don't think It's about rights really. It's about the dog WANTING to do things for you. So, when I trained a food possession growl out of one of my dogs, I did it with positive methods. They knew if they gave it up, it would mean a positive thing. It would make me happy. Now, if I smile and whimsically ask "Can I have the bone" they will get up and give it to me with tail wagging. I of course am very happy and praise. They have no issues giving me anything. Toy, stick, food. As long as they think it will make me happy.


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Of course a dog is not a human, nobody argues that. 

When a dog is resource guarding, why is it doing it? What motivates it? Similarly, why is a dog objecting to being moved?

Understanding why it happens is central to traing better behavior and stronger bond, in my view. 

If a dog, in dog's own mind, doesn't own that bone at that moment or has no right to rest without being bothered, then it surely must be doing it to annoy the owner or use that moment to attempt to establish dominance.

If we think this behavior is caused by dominance issues, we embark on training that emphasizes our superiority to the dog. Its an adversarial relationship by definition. The dog must be put in its place.

If we think this aggressive response comes because the dog believes its resource or rest is being threatened, we train it in a different way, not proving who the boss is but teaching that surrendering on command isn't a threat.

What NILIF does is teach a dog to "achieve" something rewarding by cooperating with the owner. Not to submit to the owner and admit its a lowly dog that owns nothing.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> Not to submit to the owner and admit its a lowly dog that owns nothing.


A dog owns nothing. Nada, zilch, not a thing. He *is* a lowly dog. He is not a pack leader but a lowly dog that owns nothing. 

A dog is fine with that. Really they are. We give them THINGS to make US happy for the most part. In reality, we let them use things but they are OURS. 

This response is for those having trouble with their Vizslas. But no one should accept what I write. I only know what I have experienced after reading and testing what I read or was told. This is how I learn.

I really didn't understand dogs until just a few years ago when I really started studying canine behavior. Love the subject. There is a ton of psycho-bable that is passed off as knowledge out there in books, magazines, films, and yes, forums. 

Dog owners that think dog's have a right to this or a right to that need to look in the mirror.

Vizslas don't need ANYTHING.

Here is still one of the best posts on aggression in dogs IMO.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/12/history-and-misconceptions-of-dominance.html

One of my favorite paragraphs:

_Your job is to be a leader, not a boss, not a dictator. Leadership is a huge responsibility. Your job is to provide for all of your dog's needs... food, water, vet care, social needs, security, etc. If you fail to provide what your dog needs, your dog will try to satisfy those needs on his own._

Good luck with your aggressive dog to the original poster.
RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

datacan
I didn't realize someone else on this forum reads Leerburgs methods. I believe some of them are to harsh for a vizsla but with some tweaking, they work well.

I have noticed the most of the Vs that are aggressive are males.
Maybe someone with some more insight will know why.

I don't think of it as poor lowly dog. What most people don't understand is dogs are happier with these rules. They no longer have to worry and stress about being in charge.


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

I would highly recommend "Mine" by Jean Donaldson on how to deal with resource guarding. 

And here's Ian Dunbar himself:



> It is natural for dogs to protect their possessions. In the wild, a wolf would hardly pop next door to borrow a cup of bones. Domestic dogs quickly learn that once something is gone, it is gone. So it is not surprising to find dogs trying to keep their possessions away from people.


http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/guarding-valued-objects


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## deeco3307 (Jun 13, 2010)

We dealt with very similar issues with are dog Yadi and I sought similar advice from this forum not too long ago. We tried 2 dog classes, a professional trainer at our house, another personal trainer. All had great ideas that helped partially, but our dog didn't "get-it" until we got an e-collar. The e-collar reinforces the mine command and gives a correction for the dog refusing to obey it. We never even had to use the shock, just the tone.

I believe all of our hard work and training finally paid off when he had a negative reinforcement that finally the corrected behaviors we had been working on deterring with only positive reinforcement.

Now we never had issues with his food, but we did with bones (no longer give bones) and items that he would "steal." We no longer have those issues. If he does steal something, which now happens much less frequently, we use the mine command and he drops it. If he has something of significant value, it sometimes takes 2-3x saying it, but it works.

Others on here can give you better advice about specific training, this is just my personal experience. Hope it helps!


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

TexasRed said:


> datacan
> I didn't realize someone else on this forum reads Leerburgs methods. I believe some of them are to harsh for a vizsla but with some tweaking, they work well.
> 
> I have noticed the most of the Vs that are aggressive are males.
> Maybe someone with some more insight will know why.


Don't want to change the subject too much, I find their methods can save a lot of dogs, perhaps better than Caesar Millan. 
Michael Ellis methods are especially refined and if anything enhance most dog's drive and spirit.
I wish I found them earlier when I had Tony, the GSD. 

As far as Vs are concerned, I am very pleased they are no pushovers. Was worried when I read how soft they can be. Drive and concentration are pretty intense, quite rough and pretty powerfull.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> Michael Ellis methods are especially refined and if anything enhance most dog's drive and spirit.
> I wish I found them earlier when I had Tony, the GSD.


Datacan,
Looks interesting. His training facility is very close to me. There is a e-collar class he offers that I may just take.

PROPER USE OF THE ELECTRONIC COLLAR 

_The ecollar has become a popular and pervasive tool in modern dog training. Unfortunately there is very little in the way of behaviorally sound information available for those considering its use. Many trainers mistakenly view the ecollar as the “bigger stick” of dog training. This course will dispel that myth and help trainers develop a sound understanding of learning theory and how it affects the use of electronic collars, as well as teach trainers to incorporate the use of this tool into primarily reward based training systems with minimal stress for the dogs. We have a very careful and conservative approach to the use of the electronic collar that will help trainers avoid many of the common pitfalls of its use._

http://michaelellisschool.com/courses.htm

So much to learn. I'm glad Bailey doesn't mind being my test dummy. 

He doesn't seem to.

http://michaelellisschool.com/vid_properuse.htm

RBD


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

only the best students go for extra curricular activities. Poor Bailey.

A picture of Bailey next to Michel Ellis's Belgian Shepherd Dog (Malinois) would be nice addition to your blog. I think he has a Malinois but not sure if its is a GSD. 
There is a whole bunch of talk on GS dogs deviating from the German breed standards.

http://michaelellisschool.com/lecture.htm nice, 70 minute video, generous of him.


Regards,
Julius


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## laurita (Jun 12, 2011)

Not that anything more needs to be added, but here are my observations based on what has occurred in my house:

The week I got my puppy he growled at me because I got near him with a bone. I was pretty baffled because I had owned him for maybe 48 hrs if that. I continued doing the same things I did before (working on food coming from me, but I can't say it mattered because it didn't have the high value of the bully stick), asking for calm, polite behavior before he got anything, etc. About a month or two later, he did it again, this time with some sweet potato of all things and later a frisbee. I started working specifically on the resource guarding. When he growled at me, I stood over him, didn't threaten him anymore but didn't cower away. Once I even sprayed some compressed air to get him away from the food and I threw it away in front of him and isolated him for a bit. More importantly, I did more positive reinforcement like what Ozkar describes, but in my case began giving him things of less value and approaching him with higher value things and once things were better, trading them for other objects. It really didn't take long for him to begin wagging his tail whenever I approached him when he was with a very high value object and now at 14 mos, he can be chewing on his favorite bone and will be relaxed, tail wagging, and doesn't grumble or threaten me when I take what I want. I feel confident when he has a bone, toy, etc.

My boyfriend, on the other hand, approached him recently when he was chewing on a bone and he began grumbling and growling. Then I approached him and he relaxed, tail wagging, no problems. Ironically, there's no doubt in anyone's mind that my dog perceives my boyfriend as much more of a leader than me. The day they met, my dog sat right in front of him and seemed to wait for any command from him. It's very strange how he watches him, follows him blindly, and hangs on to his every word and command. Miles listens well to me but it's just not the same deference that he has with my boyfriend. You may disagree, but I believe that resource guarding is more than just a question of leadership, it's about a perceived threat and defending oneself against it. If that's so, changing the idea of that threat can affect how the dog reacts in these situations. Just my opinion.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

laurita said:


> Not that anything more needs to be added, but here are my observations based on what has occurred in my house:


No kidding. This has been a very interesting topic so far. 

I hope it helps the original poster.


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