# Question for European Members about Tail-docking (or lack there of).



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

In a blatant attempt to draw our European members (or lurkers) I have a genuine question. It is my understanding that the traditional tail docking of Vizslas (and other breeds) is now verboten. Is this correct? Is it European Union wide? No exceptions?

More importantly are people finding their Vs suffering tail damage in the feild, or not so much? I have long wondered if the tail docks were more for "style" (a V on pont sure looks good with a 2/3 tail) or if the pragmatic reasons drove the tradition? More and more in recent years I've drifted to thinking there WS good cause for the dock. But I wonder what those in "no dock lands" think.

Lurkers come out of hiding and weight in, if you please.

Bill


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

docking is still allowed here in UK if dogs are for working or if there's a medical reason for docking. My girl has a full tail and she's never injured it at all, probably about the only body part that's escaped unscathed tbh


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## hobbsy1010 (Jun 4, 2011)

Banned here in wales also unless proof of working can be provided.
Also if medical reasons require it to be docked.

I have two V's, male & female, both working, both full tail.

Bought our first Vizsla six years ago having never done a days hunting in our lives! :-\

My, how things can change in a few years! We, I say we as my wife now works one of our dogs on her own having no previous hunting background.

Never any damage to our bitch's tail, much thicker, shorter in type, more traditional style I suppose, she is a Hungarian Import.

Our dog, bred here in Wales, much longer thinner tail. The 'tip' got damaged from an early age ( think it's on a post on here somewhere) it's never really recovered and has very little hair on it now. Sometimes still gets damaged when working.

I always preferred the look of a docked tail, when I started off.
Doesn't really bother me now, more concerned with how the dogs work! 

I always liked the description of an 'Aussie' member on here when he described his dogs full tail as......

The Coffee Table Clearer!!!!

Love it. ;D

Hobbsy


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

I was going to wait for more Europeans to come out of the woodwork, but since I have both lived over there and now own a Hungarian bred, undocked girl I guess I count. 

I thought there was a general ban in the EU, but according to this site http://www.cdb.org/euro.htm, Hungary doesn't have a ban. So I'm not sure why dogs are left undocked there, but it may have to do with being able to export them to countries that do ban or being able to show them in those countries. I'll have to ask Scout's breeder. 

I picked up the judges for my local NAVHDA chapter's fall hunt test and I remember them talking about English pointer field trialers and how the tail set and its straightness was sooo important to them to the point that they'd re-home a perfectly good hunter to get that aesthetic or they'd break and splint the tail to get it straight. To me those are ridiculous lengths to go to for looks. Hearing that as well as learning more about dog breeding in general, I'm inclined to think that aesthetics play far too big a role in trait selection. This is wandering off a bit, but I think that's why it's so important to always have vizslas that are worked, because then there will always be dogs selected for their function. Every good designer knows form follows function.

A least one of the standards for WVs (AKC might be different) actually dictates taking off only a fourth of the tail, so the difference is not as stark. I like the look of an undocked tail and how communicative it is in the field as it goes from big sweeping arcs to a still, slightly upward saber curve as she locks on point. If I ever get to where I'm taking her on multi day hunts in tough conditions I might change my mind, but for hunt tests in groomed fields she doesn't seem vulnerable. I'm surprised she hasn't injured it considering how black and blue everyone else is after she enthusiastically greets them. 

I'm not against docking and the reasons for it make sense to me, but I'd bet there are more undocked dogs without tail injuries than ones with. I don't think it needs to be as contentious as it is.


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## Emilygreasley (Dec 1, 2014)

My V is not a full V so I don't know if he really counts but I can agree with the previous UK posters - you have to be able to prove the dog is going to be working in order to get the tail docked. I think you also have to hold a shotgun license in order to do it (I could be making that up!)

As I mentioned, Ted is only part Vizsla (we think!) but he has the most fantastically long tail - I don't think I could bear to dock it even if we did work him!


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Spy - my ? is here in the USA - the AKC sets the breed standard - PIKE is my first docked V - only because the breeder goes by the AKC standard - this is a good ? 4 RBD - how did they come up with this ! now here or over the pond - a sporting pup should have the dew claws removed - they work 2 hard and this is just a injury waiting 2 happen - I love the long tail - if you hunt - docked or not it will take a beating - ME - I like all GO - and care less about show !!!!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

> talking about English pointer field trialers and how the tail set and its straightness was sooo important to them to the point that they'd re-home a perfectly good hunter to get that aesthetic or they'd break and splint the tail to get it straight


While I've never heard of them breaking a tail to try make it straight, I have heard of them being tipped. Then you have EPs born with what is called broomstick tails. A little thicker, and shorter than others. A good many question a dog with one of these tails, as to if it was genetic, or tipped.

Just as show dog has to have a certain look to win, so does a field trial pointer.
I see nothing wrong with them being sold, or resold to homes where a perfect tail doesn't matter.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

I'm pretty sure that here in UK that docking should take no more than 1/3 of a dogs tail. Truly (Scrumptious) was docked, Ruby undocked.....Truly's docked tail is still longer than Rubys undocked


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

TexasRed said:


> Just as show dog has to have a certain look to win, so does a field trial pointer.
> I see nothing wrong with them being sold, or resold to homes where a perfect tail doesn't matter.


Thanks for the additional info. I googled the pointer thing before posting that, because I wasn't sure if I was remembering it correctly. My source may not be the most reliable. 

I could never re-home a dog because they didn't measure up to my ideals, at least in the looks department. If I were set on competing at the highest levels I would keep my precious family member and try again with a new dog. Not everyone has that luxury though. Some people compete for love of dog as a breed, whereas I'd do it for love of a dog, an individual. Different priorities. 

On the topic of dew claws, this video convinced me of their usefulness at least in this specific situation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4XflsMEk-k They don't grow out as quickly as the rest of the nails and Scout uses them all the time to hold bones. To each their own!


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

R said:


> Spy - my ? is here in the USA - the AKC sets the breed standard - PIKE is my first docked V - only because the breeder goes by the AKC standard - this is a good ? 4 RBD - how did they come up with this ! now here or over the pond - a sporting pup should have the dew claws removed - they work 2 hard and this is just a injury waiting 2 happen - I love the long tail - if you hunt - docked or not it will take a beating - ME - I like all GO - and care less about show !!!!


REM, just as a point of information it is actually the recognized breed clubs that set the standards, not the AKC. So for us it is the Vizsla Club of America. The AKC follows the VCA standard.

In any case, I'm just wondering about what is in the best interests of the dog. And wondering if those who did not dock due to local/regional laws were dealing with a lot of problems (like broken or injured tails) or if these were minor issues. I've come to think docking is protective of Vs that are in the field, but it is not a position that is fixed in my mind or that I have much evidence for. So I wonder what people are experiencing in Europe or other places where they don't dock?

Bill


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Spy - back 2 my ? PIKE runs in AKC field & hunt tests - also under UFTA field trials that look at AKC 2 quailify - who set the standards & why - the VCA is great - get out of that box - in most sport breed comps - it is the AKC that sets the standards - my ? was - where do they come from & who set them & WHY !!!!


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## hobbsy1010 (Jun 4, 2011)

Here's the post I was talking about earlier in this thread and the relevant article.

hobbsy1010
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Tail Docking...
« on: April 08, 2012, 11:51:25 PM »
QuoteModify
Saw this article recently and got me thinking about the 'pro's' & 'con's' of getting your 'V' docked or not....!
Docking has been banned in my country (Wales UK) since 2007 and we purchased our boy after this date. The only exemption being able to certify that the pups to be docked are from working dogs that can be certified and identified as 'Working' (hunting etc..)

When looking into the breed (V's) with a view to owning/purchasing a dog, we so wanted a docked working pup.

Not long after finally purchasing a pup from a 'Non working' litter with a full intact tail, he damaged the 'Tip' of his tail quite badly, and after many weeks of taped/bandaged up tail we could definitely see the reasoning for the docking of tail's with this breed.
He is now three (3) and constantly cuts the tip of his tail, from just wagging (even when simply greeting) and when out in the field!!
When his tail is damaged our house resembles the waiting room of our local A&E on a Saturday night (wall to wall Blood.. )
We often think that he would have been better of docked as the tip of his tail no longer has hair growth and looks lifeless 

http://www.northern-times.co.uk/New...call-for-end-to-tail-docking-ban-23032012.htm

Hobbsy



« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 12:06:54 AM by hobbsy1010 » Report to moderator 86.14.216.67


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Thanks Hobbsy, this is the sort of thing I've been wondering about. 

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

einspänner said:


> TexasRed said:
> 
> 
> > Just as show dog has to have a certain look to win, so does a field trial pointer.
> ...


I have the same philosophy. My dogs will always be my dogs, and I would be crushed if I ever had to give one up. Even when Lucy goes to spend the weekend with my daughter, I miss her.
I just try and not hold others to the same standard. If they sell a dog to someone that will cherish it, then its probably better for the dog.


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## EuroVizion (Jun 8, 2014)

Bill,
I purchased Ivy from a breeder in Hungary this summer, who informed me that it was illegal for them to dock tails. Both of her parents were present, as well as about three generations of V's. All had intact tails with no signs of previous injury, and several had a few national championship ribbons in the house. Full tail length is a European requirement for show dogs, I believe, as are dew claws. Hunters here seem to manage quite well with dogs that have not ever gone under the knife.
Ivy seems to have a point in her bone structure where the last quarter of her tail is slightly thinner. If she had been docked there, her tail would only be a few inches shorter as a result. We're out in the field every morning, and she has not injured her tail at all. One time she gave the kitchen table an exited thwack, but the noise alarmed me more than any trauma it created for her. Ivy didn't understand my concern at all.My girl has certainly been roughed up by some brush, but her tail has never been a problem.
I have seen V's of several ages in town, bred in either Croatia, Hungary, Slovenia, or Serbia. All have their tails intact and are doing quite well. I am probably going to do a real double take the first time I see a V in person with a shortened tail. 
I have read that some breeds with shortened tails are also more likely to get in tuffs with other dogs because they are literally handicapped in the canine communication department. I remember reading one blog about Cockers in particular, which claimed that they are most likely to get into altercations in dog parks because they are limited in signaling their intent to other dogs from a distance. I don't do dog parks, so I really have no experience to validate that assertion.
Looking back, there are so many great things about a V's looks, energy, and personality that I don't understand why we continue to shorten their tails at all. I think their front ends are more likely to move stuff around a house than their wagging butts ever will.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

when pup comes in january (birth) I'll opt for undocked as opposed to docked, even though he'll be a working boy I don't see the point (no pun intended) when my bitch absolutely runs her socks off on all manner of game birds in all terrain and thus far has had no tail injury, just my tuppence worth.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Har ? Tuppencce !!!!! my only ? was - how do the groups that set the standards - come up with the standards & why - I C size - breeding history - in the field & show ring - Veing proven works 4 me - but how do they get THERE ?


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