# Some fish oil questions, first V, 8 weeks old.



## Tabor (Jan 28, 2016)

I've been lurking for a bit but

We just got our first Vizsla, Tabor, on Saturday. He was 7 weeks and 5 days, so today he's 8 weeks.

Everything is going well, he's eating, playful and right now we are focused on potty training/crate training.
The crate isn't in our room because of space issues so there is a quite a bit of expected whining and crying but night 2 was better than night 1 and I'm hopeful that will continue to be the case. We are feeding him in the crate with the door open and doing our best to establish it has his 'den'.
We also have a very mild and laid back 5 year old recuse who seemed to ignore him at first but has warmed up to him a bit over the last 24 hours (again, expected and normal).

We take him out 1-2 times every hour during the day and every 2-2.5 hours at night. Most of his accidents in the house are dribble but all that's expected, we immediately correct him by taking him outside and clean it up ASAP. We'll get there. And personally, I'm prepared for the journey to get him there. Thank goodness for caffeine. ???

We are feeding him TOTW Puppy right now because that's what the breeder fed him but we plan to transition him to a different food (not here for a food debate) when the first bag starts to get low. The goal is to wait until he's become adjusted to the environment so we are changing as few things at a time as possible.
Buttt. My question is about supplementations. I was raised with GSDs and my family loved to supplement our dogs, not that I see an issue with it but I just don't think it was completely necessary. 
The one thing I would like to give Tabor on a regular basis is fish oil. I've done a fair amount of research and plan to get pills made for humans, cut them open and drizzle on his food.

Is there a recommended dose? I've read general things online but knowing that Vs have such short hair and the air is dryer in the winter I don't want to skip on something he may need but also don't want to do too much? Being that he's around 10lbs now and growing everyday I know the dose will change. 

How much Omega3/6 should he be getting? How often? We are currently feeding twice a day, about half a cup but will give a little more if he seems extra hungry.

This may be a case of obsessive dog owner. But this forum is an example of that.  So I think I'm in the right place. Also, any other input would be great if, from this quick rundown you see something we should consider, may have glanced over, or just general advice. I'm here to learn.


----------



## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

Tabor said:


> The one thing I would like to give Tabor on a regular basis is fish oil. I've done a fair amount of research and plan to get pills made for humans, cut them open and drizzle on his food.
> 
> Is there a recommended dose? I've read general things online but knowing that Vs have such short hair and the air is dryer in the winter I don't want to skip on something he may need but also don't want to do too much? Being that he's around 10lbs now and growing everyday I know the dose will change.


I'm interested to hear the other responses you get. We just started our weim on fish oil because she has a very dry coat, which has been getting flaky due to allergies and frequent baths lately (she rolls in poo like it's a professional sport). She's 47 lbs. and our vet has us giving her one capsule (I puncture it with a thumbtack and squirt it on her kibble) every other day. I just buy the human grade capsules at the pharmacy. I didn't research dosing amounts, etc. though so I can't help you there - just took our vet's recommendation. It does seem to be helping her coat.



Tabor said:


> This may be a case of obsessive dog owner. But this forum is an example of that.  So I think I'm in the right place. Also, any other input would be great if, from this quick rundown you see something we should consider, may have glanced over, or just general advice. I'm here to learn.


Haha, yup! Welcome


----------



## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

Coconut oil is great, too


----------



## emilycn (Jul 30, 2013)

I have used fish oil in the past... both the pet-store version (i.e. http://olivegreendog.com/grizzly-salmon-oil-for-dogs/ or http://olivegreendog.com/nordic-naturals-omega-3-pet-liquid/) and the snip-tip capsules from the vet. I just used the dose that was on the package or one capsule/day.

I prefer coconut oil though... I think it works slightly better, it's cheaper, it's less stinky, and Lua loves it. Her skin tends to get dry and she tends to have skin allergies, and the omegas in the coconut oil help with both moisturizing and blocking histamine. Plus, as a point of pride, everyone I meet comments on how soft her coat is.  When I first started her on it, there was a noticeable difference in the condition of her skin and fur within 2-4 weeks. 

If you investigate the coconut oil route, keep in mind that you'll want to go the virgin (also called unrefined, or cold-pressed) route. It's been a while since I looked it up, but I think the main difference between the virgin oil and the refined oil is that the refining process (heating, bleaching, etc.) destroys the antioxidants in the oil. I can't remember exactly why that's a bad thing, but the research is pretty easily accessible if you care to study up on it when considering refined vs unrefined oil.

If you've got a trader joe's nearby, I really like their virgin organic oil---it's relatively cheap for $5.99/16oz, which lasts us about a month. The conventional "dose" for coconut oil supplementation is 1 teaspoon per 10lbs of body weight. Lua weighs about 40lbs, so she gets anywhere from 1-1.5 tablespoons in her breakfast kibble every morning (1TBSP = 3tsp), depending on the weather (more when it's cold and dry) and her weight (less when she's looking chunkier). 

I think I remember that organicthoughts had some really good advice about this stuff when I asked about it here a while ago


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Coconut oil is good stuff for Vs, both internally and externally (makes a nice coat dressing). While a great source of medium chain fatty acids, coconut oil is not a source of Omega 3s.

I feed my V regular servings of raw cold-water oily-fish like Sardines, Mackerel, and Anchovies as part of a balance raw diet to provide Omega 3s.

If supplementing with Omega 3s it is important to ensure adequate Vitamin E levels in the diet.

Bill


----------



## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

Supplements, like anything else, should be used for a specific purpose and with moderation. I'm not one to give a lot, especially since I do a lot of ongoing research on food to make sure the ingredients cover all the bases. Typically, you want to add something that is notably missing, or if the dog has some symptoms. You can give too much of a good thing, premium foods typically add these supplements (or their equivalent) anyways.

I rotate my foods to make sure AJ gets the variety of amino acids each protein source offers, btwn Annamaet fish based formula and their meat formulas, so when I'm using the latter I add Grizzly Wild Salmon Oil, available at Amazon in a very convenient squirt bottle, a couple shots is fine. When AJ gets the fish formula, I add extra virgin coconut oil. But beware, coconut oil is very rich (and sweet), so too much can lead to pancreatitis...I think Emily might be giving too much....just a teaspoon or so every couple days melted into warm water to make a broth is fine.

Also, all Omegas are not the same, and all sources are not equal: Aside from the distinction btwn extra virgin/unrefined/cold pressed and the rest, coconut oil is primarily for skin and coat, salmon oil is more beneficial for cardiovascular/neurological benefits.

At 8 weeks, I wouldn't recommend either just yet, it's unclear what the benefits at that tender age are and it's easy to give too much which could potentially interfere with the absorption of all the other nutrients in his food.


----------



## emilycn (Jul 30, 2013)

That is a really excellent point that I forgot to add... thank you Gingerling! If you do decide to supplement with an oil, it can be irritating at first to the GI tract (i.e., diarrhea), so you'd need to start out small... when Lua was started on the coconut oil, we started with a 1/2 teaspoon and slowly increased. 

I'll check out the research on dosage---I can't remember whether the vet suggested that or I found it somewhere else, but it's a good point, and it's always a good idea to keep up with the research.


----------



## Tabor (Jan 28, 2016)

Thanks for all of the advice so far. I think I will (very slowly) begin with coconut oil and see how that works out. I have some extra virgin coconut oil at home that I haven't used much and if the pup can benefit form it, even better.
Him being so young means I don't really have a baseline in terms of how he is with with/without supplementation but if I start very slow and he seems to be doing fine (or not) then I'll just go from there.


----------



## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

emilycn said:


> it can be irritating at first to the GI tract (i.e., diarrhea), so you'd need to start out small... when Lua was started on the coconut oil, we started with a 1/2 teaspoon and slowly increased.


Emily, FWIW, if your dog initially shows signs of irritation you probably used too much....1/2 teaspoon is pretty close to a good final dose, if you're using more than that on a daily basis, you might want to throttle it back....the benefits at a certain point diminish and you greatly increase the chances of pancreatitis..which is very dangerous!

Take the same amount as her and see how you feel, how you experience it, and you'll see what I mean...keep in mind that your weight is much greater, so the the proportion of it in your system is less than hers.


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

My dogs are older and get low sodium canned salmon 2-times a week. I tried a 30 day supply of the supplements but it didn't seem to work as well as feeding them fish. It could have just been the brand I used,so some may have better luck than I did.


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

I disagree entirely with the idea that 1/2 teaspoon a day is a good maximum amount of coconut oil a day for a hard working Vizsla.

Canine athletes should burn fat as their primary source of energy. They are shaped by evolution to thrive burning fats, and numerous scientific studies have demonstrated the increased stamina, increased VO2 Max scores, and decreased injuries that comes with eating a high-protein high-fat diet.

The thing to minimize in the diet are carbohydrates, which are an unnatural energy source for dogs in the levels in commercial kibbles. Dealing with excessive carbs stresses the pancreas in both its functions: regulating blood sugars and producing digestive enzymes. The rush of sugars from simple carbohydrates require excessive production of insulin, and the types of blood sugar rushes people have as well (except worse, as dogs—unlike humans—have limited capacity to deal with carbohydrates. Carbohydrate wreck havoc with the endocrine side of the pancreas, and also the exocrine function. Dogs, unlike humans and other omnivores, have no amalyse (the enzyme need to digest starch) in their saliva. So it is up to the pancreas to secrete amylase to deal with the unnatural amounts of starch in modern cereal based food. The capacity to produce amylase is limited, and an unevenly distributed adaptation in dogs.

Dogs with a stressed out pancreas can develop pancreatitis as a result of eating a huge amount of fat (usually a cooked grease) by spilling digestive enzymes in response to a trigger meal. But the triggering event is precipitated by feeding a species inappropriate diet leading up to the event. 

Dogs conditioned to burn fat, their natural fuel supply, and not carbohydrates, rarely suffer from the problems with pancreatitis that are far too common with dogs that have cereal-based diets.

A high-protein high-fat diet dramatically increases stamina and keeps dogs lean and fit.

Bill


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Those who may decide to feed fish, which I believe is the best course, should be aware that feeding raw Salmon, Trout and related species from the Pacific Northwest is very dangerous due to a parasite that can carry a disease that is fatal to dogs if not treated early. Cooked or canned is fine. Sodium levels are usually an issue with canned.

Bill


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

If someone wanted to get away from canned, I've heard you can pressure cook fresh salmon. If anyone tries it, let me know if it turns the bones as soft as the canned.


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

TexasRed said:


> If someone wanted to get away from canned, I've heard you can pressure cook fresh salmon. If anyone tries it, let me know if it turns the bones as soft as the canned.


I've heard this as well. Not sure how long it would take to soften the salmon bones.

The good news with Mackerel, Anchovies, and Sardines is they are less expensive to purchase than Salmon, aren't farmed, and can be fed raw (bones and all).

Bill


----------



## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Spy said:


> A high-protein high-fat diet dramatically increases stamina and keeps dogs lean and fit.


I couldn't agree more. I add suet or coconut oil to Scout's diet in winter to offset the extra calories she burns in the cold. It helps keep good lean weight on her. A local meat market sells it frozen. 

For fish/omega 3s, lately I've been buying bags of frozen smelts or sardines. I like them even better than the canned sardines I used to buy for her.


----------

