# Aggression towards unaltered male



## Canadian Expy (Feb 27, 2013)

For those members with unaltered males, have you noticed the tendency for other male dogs (both altered and unaltered) to show aggression towards your dog?

Our boy is now 21 months old and unaltered. Starting around 18-19 months we noticed a significant change in how other male dogs responded to him. Dogs on leash, tied up on their property or behind fences/doors would bark and growl at him. Our guys behavior never changed, and he would not react to this behavior. Whatever the other dog was doing he would simply carry on, business as usual. 

At the beginning of July we were on a canoe trip, and when carrying gear from one lake to the next, we encountered an off leash German Shepherd. Aspen was on a 6 ft jogging leash that was attached to my waist belt. I saw the Shepherd at the top of the hill (so I did not see it coming ahead of time), and within seconds the dog charged at Aspen an immediately latched onto his throat, with Aspen yelping and cowering on the ground. I have a 50-60 lb pack fastened to my back, so my ability to move quickly is limited, and the dogs movement ended up causing me to fall to the ground unable to move. The Shepherd was relentless and the owners, who heard me screaming at the top of my lungs for them to get their dog, did nothing to gain control of their dog. My husband who was a distance behind me carrying our canoe and canoe pack heard my screams and threw his gear off to run up the trail to us. He saw the Shepherd on top of our dog and me on the ground beside them, and he ran up and grabbed the Shepherd by the scruff and the back, throwing it many feet through the air into the scrub along the side of thetrail. He then stood in front of the Shepherd ready to take further action if necessary. His action was enough to disorient the Shepherd and stop the attack, the owners then came and grabbed their dog by the collar. I was certainly shook up, as was Aspen. In the attack Aspen was so terrified he actually pooped himself. Physical injuries were there, but the psychological impact to him has been greater. I am now working through this with a behaviourist. 

I'm just wondering whether anyone else has experienced aggression *towards* their unaltered boy. My concern now is that I have worked so hard with Aspen on resolving his fear issue, that he is a target and that my progress can easily be undone. I have stayed away from all areas that I consider high risk for encountering unleashed dogs, and have kept his socialization to play time with dogs that I know and trust to help build his confidence again. He shows fear towards Shepherds and Doodles, as he has been attacked by both - the Doodle incident happened a couple weeks after the Shepherd incident. 

We were not planning on neutering him quite yet, but are now wondering whether it might benefit him if it lowers the risk of another attack. 

Any insight you guys can provide is appreciated.


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## Vizsla Baby (Nov 4, 2011)

My altered male does not like unaltered males - of any breed. Never any fights, he just seems disturbed by their presence and I can see how a dog with aggressive tendencies might act upon it.

That's an awful story for your boy, I'm sorry you had to go through that. Very irresponsible shepherd owners I must say.


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## Ksana (Mar 30, 2013)

So sorry to hear about this incident! Yes, I have noticed this tendency as well. I find shepherds, doodles and akitas are bad for my unaltered V boy, especially if they team up with other dogs. This is why many on this forum prefer to walk their Vizslas in remote areas. 

As I do not always have access to such areas and when in off-leash areas, I am always on lookout. When I see dogs charging at my boy (he now knows to stay closer to me if he seems too many dogs suddenly changing their directions), I tell my boy "tail up, never down" and/ or "I am with you" and try to walk to continue walking having my boy on the opposite side. If these dogs establish a circle (usually other owners do nothing), then I make a circle with my hands and my body telling other dogs "off" (something I saw on TV). As a woman, I also try to remember to use low voice as dogs seem to listen better then. My boy has now learned to show his teeth and growl back, but I prefer to avoid getting to this point. 

I have also learned how to read dogs' body language, so I know better when my boy becomes uncomfortable or others dogs become too aggressive or dogs just standing there eyeballing each looking like a "Mexican stand-off" ; then I just end the interaction and call my boy "Leave it" and/ or "This way." I even think he appreciates me doing this as he almost looks like telling the other dog "sorry, got to go" while taking off to me.


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

I went to Ian Dunbar seminar, and he mentioned that contrary to popular belief, that altering your male will not affect its behavior at all as its the other dogs that give your dog a hard time because of the testosterone it can smell in your dog. 

Also when breaking up a dog fight, (so i've read and have never tried this)...it is recommended that you grab the dog(s) just in front of the rear legs and spin the dog in a circle. The objective, is that it disorientates the dog and your far less likely to get bite..... just what i read onnlineno idea of its effectiveness....

Nate


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

I found an article outlining what Dunbar had said...

http://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/neutering-fact-sheet/255

Strangely enough, castration does not make dogs less inclined to fight, neither does it reduce the dog's social standing vis a vis other dogs. Instead, castration reduces the desire for other dogs to pick fights with your dog. Castration removes the source of testosterone, the male sex hormone which makes male dogs smell male. Thus, castrated males appear to be less of a threat to other males, which consequently will be less aggressive and combative towards your dog. In a sense, castration makes your dog appear to be less obnoxious to others. Furthermore, if other dogs are more relaxed around your dog, your dog will feel more relaxed around them, and thus, he will be much easier to control. - See more at: http://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/neutering-fact-sheet/255#sthash.dAZUWKnv.dpuf


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

While some males buff up a little more to unaltered males, its normally not enough that it would make me want to neuter one. Most of the time its the younger males (before 2) that the other dogs buff up some to.
By buff up, I don't mean attack. Only that they do the proud stance with hackles raised, while they check each other out.
The Shepard charging him from a distance, makes me think he was in attack mode, and being altered or not probably played no role in it.


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## Canadian Expy (Feb 27, 2013)

I agree that the incident with the Shepherd was an attack, and I cannot say whether the incident would have happened regardless of whether Aspen was intact or not. There was no fight between the dogs, it was completely one sided. It angers me that our formerly social, happy-go-lucky V has changed so greatly from this incident.



SuperV said:


> I found an article outlining what Dunbar had said...
> 
> http://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/neutering-fact-sheet/255
> 
> Strangely enough, castration does not make dogs less inclined to fight, neither does it reduce the dog's social standing vis a vis other dogs. Instead, castration reduces the desire for other dogs to pick fights with your dog. Castration removes the source of testosterone, the male sex hormone which makes male dogs smell male. Thus, castrated males appear to be less of a threat to other males, which consequently will be less aggressive and combative towards your dog.


My concern is that, as SuperV points out in the Dunbar article above, Aspen is/will continue to be a target for other dogs to pick on. If the Shepherd and Doodle incidents had been the only evidence of dogs picking on Aspen, then I would carry on with training and consider them unfortunate events. However, this poor dog must have one heck of a scent, because I have witnessed enough dogs reacting to him now that it can't be coincidence. Even my husband, who was skeptical of what I had told him I was seeing, now understands after witnessing it first hand while we were away on our most recent vacation. 

I have been working with Aspen on this for 2 months so far, and we are just back to him enjoying his walks with tail wagging. I am still all for keeping a dog unaltered if you can, but I am now trying to weigh the pros and cons for our guy. He has always been a sensitive pup and if he hadn't been so impacted by these events psychologically, I wouldn't be considering neutering. I'm torn. :-\


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## Rbka (Apr 21, 2014)

I have been worried about this too!

When Nico was 6 months old (July) I was walking him off-leash on the cottage road. Lo and behold another vizsla wandered up to us, tail wagging. I let them say hi, no owner in sight, and then the other v turned. He pinned Nico and started aggressively biting his head and neck leaving some small scars on the top of his head and behind his ears. I pulled Nico out of the dog's grasp by heaving on his hind legs and shoving the other dog quite hard knocking him out of the way.

The dog-owner came running out (they were renters which is why we hadn't met the other v before) and said that the dog had attacked because Nico was still intact... even though he was only still a little puppy.... seems strange but who knows, maybe he has a strong scent?

Now that Nico is beginning to look mature I'm constantly asked when he's going to be neutered at the dog park we go to. All the dog-walkers I've spoken with are pro-neutering before 1 year and there are a few young male dogs who dislike Nico possibly due to his testes (they literally just ignore him though, no attacks yet). I don't know what to do except keep a sharp eye out when Nico meets other dogs and perhaps stop going to the dog park if it becomes a problem. I definitely don't like the idea of neutering young ... or at all maybe. But in our neighbourhood it is highly frowned upon to keep a male dog intact beyond 10ish months.

Any advice on this would be great! Nico has a beautiful personality and I don't want to change him or interfere his development!


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

Rbka said:


> The dog-owner came running out (they were renters which is why we hadn't met the other v before) and said that the dog had attacked because Nico was still intact... even though he was only still a little puppy.... seems strange but who knows, maybe he has a strong scent?





Canadian said:


> My concern now is that I have worked so hard with Aspen on resolving his fear issue, that he is a target and that my progress can easily be undone.


Dexter was neutered young (not quite 7 mos.) but we experienced this too. I'm inclined to agree with SuperV/Dunbar's view. Although, keep in mind that some dogs become more reactive once they've been neutered. So you might be solving one problem just to create another.


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

We encounter this all the time. Just the other week I had to boot a ridgeback who was hard charging at my boy with attack on his mind. Pulled his owner to the ground and drug her about 15 feet trying to get to us. The owner eventually let go and I was not letting that dog near my dog.... was on leash at the time. You have to show your pup you have its back.


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## Ksana (Mar 30, 2013)

organicthoughts said:


> We encounter this all the time. Just the other week I had to boot a ridgeback who was hard charging at my boy with attack on his mind. Pulled his owner to the ground and drug her about 15 feet trying to get to us. The owner eventually let go and I was not letting that dog near my dog.... was on leash at the time. You have to show your pup you have its back.


Agreed. I would not hesitate to fight other dogs to show my puppy I have his back. Must be my mothering instinct kicking in. So far firm loud "off" with stepping forward and increasing my (and my pup's) personal space worked long enough to either stop other dogs or owners leashing/ pulling their dogs away. One person dropped a cell phone, rushed to me and said: "My rottweiler never done this before, but I will pay for all vet bills". Actually this rottweiler was stopped by me, but I was wondering if this was true this dog never attacked before.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Is it just me, or does it appear that the neutered dogs are the problem? They are the ones starting the fights, not the dogs that are left intact.


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

TexasRed said:


> Is it just me, or does it appear that the neutered dogs are the problem? They are the ones starting the fights, not the dogs that are left intact.


Definitely agree with this one. The intact dogs generally only go so far as posturing, the neutered seem to go right into attack mode.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Unless they're little dogs... I was dog sitting last week for a 7 yr old intact silky terrier and when he wasn't humping Scout, he was snapping at her for trying to cuddle with me. It didn't matter if it was at his home or mine and we'd introduced them successfully on neutral ground. She was too nice to tell him off. And when I had him at my place he marked inside, so while I know it comes down to individual temperament and training, I can understand where those stereotypes come from.


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## Canadian Expy (Feb 27, 2013)

Thank you all very much for your input. Your opinions and experiences are very helpful. I still don't know what we are going to do, but for now I'm going to stick with his training and see where we go from there. It would be so much easier if we didn't live in the city, where encounters with dogs (often poorly behaved) are more likely - I have developed a great dislike for the retractable leash! 

Fortunately, on weekends we typically go the cottage, or to the farm instead of staying in the city, so at least we have places we can run our boy worry free.


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## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

Well TexasRed, I think I'm going to be a lightening rod here, but I've been thinking about your post all day and I just have to post an alternate theory.

I think dogs are neutered/spayed for a variety of reasons. Some neuter/spay for puppy prevention, some because of the medical research they believe, and I'm sure there are probably some legitimate situational reasons. 

Unfortunately, some people neuter/spay because they believe it is a shortcut to training. Based on the lack of response from the owners of the attacking dogs in these stories, I think this group isn't necessarily because the dogs were neutered but because their owners didn't train/socialize/correct their dogs. It probably isn't much of a leap to believe that for this group of dogs, the owners tried to take a shortcut from training to the detriment of not only their dogs, but all who interact with them.

Sorry to hijack your thread Canadian Expy.


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## Rbka (Apr 21, 2014)

Interesting theory. Altering the dog rather than continued training effort. Everyone I talk to cites behaviour as a reason to neuter.... But I don't want to permanently change anything! Nico has never even humped anything (although often gets humped by other neutered males at the park).

When my brother was a teenager my dad called him "eejit boy" (as in idiot boy) and I think a lot of the reasons for neutering are maybe transient teenage characteristics like being gawky, forgetful, rebellious and testing limits. This article was posted a while ago and I saved it (wish I could give credit to the original poster but I can't remember), worth a read for a laugh: http://www.trader.co.nz/versatiledogs/articles/awkward.htm


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I don't consider your post a lighting rod.
There are plenty of reasons dogs act the way they do.

Genetics is a big one, followed by training, and socialization. But I would not say spaying or neutering a dog has no effect on them. And yes people neuter/spay for a number of reasons. I had my male Cash neutered at 3 years old. The reason I did it, was because he has temperament issues. It was not to fix the issues, but to cut down on all the whining, when one of my females were in heat. He was never going to be used as a stud, so there was no reason to deal with the whining.


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