# Quail



## olofsonb (Dec 15, 2013)

Has anyone here raised quail for the sole purpose of training. And if so, is it difficult? What should I expect startup costs to be?


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

Pigeons are much better. Quail tend to be pretty docile and the dogs grow out of them fast.


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## olofsonb (Dec 15, 2013)

How fast would you say they grow out of them? I don't need them on a permanent basis, just temporary to build their bird drive.


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

It depends on the dog. My dog is too birdy to use the quail I have found. They have no natural flush and don't fly well so it is very easy for the dog to grab. My pup had outgrown them by 4 months old. I have only used Coturnix mind you. The one good thing about quail is that they smell really strong.

They are a good intro bird and that is about it. Pigeons are much more useful even as intro as they fly well and it teaches the pup to woah better and to steady to wing.


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## olofsonb (Dec 15, 2013)

Ok good to know thanks. How many pigeons should suffice? And how do u get them to come back?


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

It's pretty easy, enjoyable even.You might run into cannibalism, especially if you have too many males in too small a space. Giving them some hiding holes helps with that. They also like to dust bathe, so keep a container of dirt for them to roll around in. I mixed in some diatomaceous earth to kill off bugs. Otherwise you give them food and water and they're pretty happy. 

I think I put just under $200 into the pen, but I also dumpster dived at construction sites for materials. Feed is probably another 20 bucks. Whenever I cut up some fruits and veggies for myself, I'd throw the scraps into the pen. Flight conditioned quail go for 4 bucks a pop around here. 25 lasted me a couple months. 

So $300 or so depending on how cheaply you can build your pen. 

It can be as hands on as you want it be. People rig all sorts of automatic feeders and waterers. I'll probably make a pvc system when I getting ready for pigeons. Backyard Chickens' quail forum was really helpful to me. http://www.backyardchickens.com/f/48/quail

All the pictures of my setup are terrible, but I can post them and the computer model I built if you're interested.

I think it's worth starting with quail. Just make your pen flexible so you can raise pigeons later.


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

I respectfully disagree with einspanner. If you start with pigeons, your dog won't have as much of an opportunity to learn to grab birds.

If you start now with pigeons, you can train them to be homers within a month or two and then you don't ever have to spend money buying birds. You just have to treat them well and keep them in the coop for a couple months. After that just train very close to the coop and they will most likely fly back. If they do, you have homers. Build some nesting boxes in the coop so that they hatch eggs and you'll have a bevy of pigeons and can probably eventually sell some too.

I have 6 pigeons in my coop and I don't foresee needing any more unless something drastic happens.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Ill write more, but in my opinion, quail are a bird looking for a place to die. I know guys that raise them and its a struggle. Pigeons are hardy, and more likely to be forgiving. If you are just trying to build drive, use the quail once and that should be it. They likely wont survive. Poor flying quail will ruin dogs if they aren't ready for it. Pigeons fly and are gone. When your dog is ready, go to the quail.
I race pigeons, (small brag, just had a bird take 6 out of 170 birds last weekend: ) and good flying birds you can use over and over are worth their weight in gold. Plus they breed prolifically and once you get birds established, you'll be trying to give them away rather then buying them.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

organicthoughts said:


> I respectfully disagree with einspanner. If you start with pigeons, your dog won't have as much of an opportunity to learn to grab birds.
> 
> If you start now with pigeons, you can train them to be homers within a month or two and then you don't ever have to spend money buying birds. You just have to treat them well and keep them in the coop for a couple months. After that just train very close to the coop and they will most likely fly back. If they do, you have homers. Build some nesting boxes in the coop so that they hatch eggs and you'll have a bevy of pigeons and can probably eventually sell some too.
> 
> I have 6 pigeons in my coop and I don't foresee needing any more unless something drastic happens.


Agree. Guess we were posting at the same time.


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## olofsonb (Dec 15, 2013)

I understand there's not much to them. I planned on making them a 1 time use bird anyway then make them into Scooby snacks  . Not to mention the in-laws love quail eggs.


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

Like V-John said, they really are a one time use bird.

As in, put one out for your pup to find and kill to build its drive and feel power over birds... and then never really use quail again. So literally one time use.

The more your dog kills and grabs bird the harder and harder it will be to teach it to be steady to wing.


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## olofsonb (Dec 15, 2013)

I take it 25 quail would be too much at maybe 1 every other day?


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

I would only put my dog on quail once (one bird total), in his whole life until he is steady on birds and you are just using him to point in the scent cone.

As in, one bird, ever! I would not bother raising quail. Buy one for 3 dollars and then that's it. Much more potential to ruin your dog by putting them on quail over and over again.

Pigeon's lay eggs too, never tasted em though  I hear squab is delicious


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Organic is right again. I put one or two out as a fun time thing, build confidence and drive, and its on to pigeons until they are ready for quail again. They to completely break them out you need more quail, but its much easier buying them for four bucks rather then raising them.


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## olofsonb (Dec 15, 2013)

Any ideas how to trap pigeons?


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

olofsonb said:


> Any ideas how to trap pigeons?


Yes, I used to trap probably around twenty or so a day. The place was loaded with pigeons.
I'll write more later, but you need a pigeon trap. Another thing is if you know where they roost, you can spotlight them and net them.


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

If you're on the ocean, wait til the tide is out and then go under a dock. Plenty of pigeons roost in places like that.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Before this year I always had a bird supplier a few minutes from my house. It made it easy for them to go straight from the flight pens, to the field. Very little birds were ever caught, unless I was working with a puppy. I want my pups to get birds in their mouth at a very young age. I like Bobs and not the bigger slower flying quail. Next I move to pigeons, and will throw in a chukar (better flyers than quail) every now and then. Game birds bring on a extra excitement that pigeons don't. Easier to train with pigeons, and then reinforce with game birds. I try and do a good part of the training on land that has a preserve license. After the young dog is finished training, I can bring out a older dog, and the shoot the birds over them. No one complains when we have chukar for dinner.

I don't like the idea of only putting out 1 or 2 birds every time. I like to mix it up so the dog never knows.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

TexasRed said:


> Before this year I always had a bird supplier a few minutes from my house. It made it easy for them to go straight from the flight pens, to the field. Very little birds were ever caught, unless I was working with a puppy. I want my pups to get birds in their mouth at a very young age. I like Bobs and not the bigger slower flying quail. Next I move to pigeons, and will throw in a chukar (better flyers than quail) every now and then. Game birds bring on a extra excitement that pigeons don't. Easier to train with pigeons, and then reinforce with game birds. I try and do a good part of the training on land that has a preserve license. After the young dog is finished training, I can bring out a older dog, and the shoot the birds over them. No one complains when we have chukar for dinner.
> 
> I don't like the idea of only putting out 1 or 2 birds every time. I like to mix it up so the dog never knows.


Lot of good truths here.  
When you are training, change up the routine. Dogs are smart. If you train at the same field, using the same birds, they will get to giving you half-$#*(# effort. 
I start them on quail to build up the desire (should only literally take one or two) after that it's to pigeons unless the scenerio is extremely controlled (Dog on a CC with a launcher or something, or I have a helper) Then to pigeons. Then once they prove to me they are ready for quail, it's back to quail. 
One thing with quail. Regardless of breed, if they do not have the opportunity to fly in a large flight pen, they won't be worth a dang. 
But those Courturnix, in my opinion, are just awful. Bobs, if they come from the right place, can be pretty good. Or really bad.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

All the suppliers around here had a 25 bird minimum, hence why I started with that many. It would be much better to get them as you need them. V-john and TR are way more experienced than I am, so I'd take their advice! 

Anyway here was my setup. 

It's 7'5"l x 4' 7"w x 4'10" h. Sort of a chicken coop style, with a ramp going down from the coop to an outdoor space enclosed with 1/2" hardware cloth. They rarely went in the coop actually. There's a nest box on the front with a hinged roof. They never used it, but it let me peek in. The whole front of the coop is also hinged to open for easy cleaning. I went with a "green roof" to help it blend in better in my suburban surroundings and grew some lettuce for them on top. I stuck some branches, straw, and leaves in there to give them some natural cover. I took it apart or I'd get some better pics for you. 

If quail are going to be a short term thing for you, I'd build something tailored to them more. I really enjoyed the quail and could see myself raising them in the future, so this setup works for me. I'll add some perches and nest boxes for the pigeons.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

This is my larger loft. I have two. The larger loft is 4x10 and it's divided into two sections. One section has a breeding area, with nest boxes. This area is the larger area with the young bird side. 
I really like this set up as it is easy to train them to go through the bobs, as they are constantly going through the door to get outside, into the aviary. They call it a "RedRose" design. Pretty easy to make and should hold more pigeons then you could ever want. 



This is a short video of the birds and their first flights. They are just learning to fly and learning the area and such. 
I hope the video works.


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## olofsonb (Dec 15, 2013)

I couldn't help but lol when the one pigeon flew into the roof. I agree, that's far more birds than I'll ever need. I was thinking maybe 4 birds... I can't really get away with having a huge coop on account I live with the in-laws.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

What I have found with my limited experience, is I train no two dogs the exact way. I try and look to the pup to let me know the next step, and how long we stay on the current one. I handle some dogs, more than I handle others. Self hunters I teach the birds come from me. Ones that want to stick/look to me, I teach birds can only be found without me. Some get more quail than others, before we move to pigeons.
As long as your not to hard on a pup, most things can be fixed. If it catches to many birds, you'll have to spend longer on the steadying process. But its not a epic fail.
As long as the dog is enjoying its time in the bird field, you have something to work with.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

olofsonb said:


> I couldn't help but lol when the one pigeon flew into the roof. I agree, that's far more birds than I'll ever need. I was thinking maybe 4 birds... I can't really get away with having a huge coop on account I live with the in-laws.


Those first few flights of their lives are pretty amusing. Bunch of goofballs.

I used these plans for a smaller loft that will hold about the number of birds you want. But, you will likely end up with more birds then you want anyways. 

http://www.lcsupply.com/Pigeon-Loft-Plans/productinfo/PLP/

If you want these plans, I believe I have them on email. Shoot me your email via PM.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Intellectual Property removed by Author.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Buddy of mine got one from a lesser-quality company, and the pigeons would go into the trap, eat, and then push their way out. 
I was amused, but he wasn't. 

The trap that Ken posted looks much better and I highly doubt that anyone would have that problem.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

V-john, how do you recommend getting into homers? Buying young birds, raising them from eggs?


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Intellectual Property removed by Author.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

einspänner said:


> V-john, how do you recommend getting into homers? Buying young birds, raising them from eggs?


If you get young birds, around 30 days or so, (or a bit older) they will settle in just fine. 
Ken is right, I've had ferals in my loft and they homed great. They seemed to appreciate the food and the home. However, older birds, you will have some losses. They all won't resettle. Shoot you could lose a large number of them. Squeakers, you have a good chance of resettling without losing them as long as they aren't too strong on the wing. 
When I ship birds to other flyers to race for me, I look underneath their wings. If they are completely feathered out underneath and are eating on their own, they are ready to go. The other flier will resettle the birds. Basically you will put the bird in your loft, teach it how to enter the loft and begin the process of getting the bird in the air.
Birds born in the loft will be easy to settle in as it is their home and all they have known. Adults who raise birds in the loft can home back to your loft, but aren't necessarily guaranteed to rehome to the loft.

For example, I trapped a racing pigeon once. I called the owner, and asked if he wanted him back. He didn't, so I kept that bird and bred some young out of it. I probably had that bird for two or three years..... And one time it got out. 
Never saw it again.
Ive trapped some wild feral birds and I still have them. They are probably some of my fastest trapping birds.... there is no messing around "in the wild". Seems like they appreciate home and the safety it provides.

Long story short. 
If you can find some late hatch birds from a racer (don't tell them you want them for dog training.... a lot of pigeon guys look down upon that) cheap, go for it. If you end up with some wild or ferals, keep some back to breed and you can try to resettle them, with the understanding that you may lose half or all of them. 
If you have the patience and time, getting young ones hatch ensures you have birds that will call your loft home.
As an aside, this is a good time to get young homers.... As it is getting to be the time when birds hatched this late will be too young to race, come August and Sept.
Wish you were closer, could set you up pretty easily. 

Hope this helps.
John


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## olofsonb (Dec 15, 2013)

What happens if I move? Do the pigeons return to the loft or the geographic location?


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

More then likely the geographic location. Part of their homing process is getting up and circling the loft. When they do this, they are getting up and learning the area. This loft flying is extremely important to their homing process. They are, in fact learning their surroundings and this helps them home. They will expand their loft flying, learning more about their terrain. So typically, homers will return to the area, not to the loft. But they may be resettled, but you may lose some to them trying to go back to their old loft.
As an aside, I've had birds show up a couple months later after a race. Shoot, I had a bird lost last week on a race show up yesterday. So who actually knows sometimes. But they can be neat critters, that's for sure.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Thanks Ken and John! Very helpful information. I was having trouble sourcing homers close to me anyway. I might get some strange looks trapping pigeons downtown Charleston though.  Seriously though this give me a lot more options and I can put the money I'd spend on birds into a launcher. ;D


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Intellectual Property removed by Author.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

PIKE & I love this thread - ? why - members that want a great gun dog - now some things 2 look at - PIKE & 1 other pup I've had were not turned on by pigeons - just the nature of the beast - launchers - remote controlled - a CC & friend is the quickest way to teach steady 2 point & flush then shot - in Ky we have a limited preserve season - so bird breeders gear up production before it begins - the cost of a gun dog trainer that loves V's is minimal compared to the cost of raising birds & launchers if you have 1 pup - that being said - follow the great advice posted - if you have just 1 pup - do it and your gun dog buddies will line up - help out - and thank YOU !!!!!!!


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

When your pup is 10-16 weeks get some corturnix Quail. They only cost about 2-3 bucks. Plant them in a field and let the dog hunt them up. If he catches them all the better for his bird drive. Only do this maybe two or three times. 

Then build a loft and get your homing pigeons. Start with sqeekers from a racing loft and you will have good homers.

Buy your remote launcher from one of the online suppliers. There are many choices and prices so research them all. Buying used is a good way to get two Launchers for the price of one. 

Buy a blank 22 pistol & 22 crimps.

Work your dog on the pigeons every week once they start flying and homing. Use training fields close to the loft at first then extend further out. Mine can fly from A WMA training area back to my coop. 17 miles. 

Graduate to Bob white Quail. Find someone that raises them in a flight pen. In my area I pay $8.00 for a flight conditioned Bob white. Healthy strong flying birds. They will flush hard but will still land on the ground 150 yards out. So it is best to use them as training birds when your ready to shoot. This is good practice for both you and the dog.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Holy cow eight bucks? Man, I thought I was suffering paying four! 

Pigeons are used to put manners on the dog. They are great birds because they dont come down and provide temptation for the dog. Put the dog in a position to succeed.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

einspänner said:


> Thanks Ken and John! Very helpful information. I was having trouble sourcing homers close to me anyway. I might get some strange looks trapping pigeons downtown Charleston though.  Seriously though this give me a lot more options and I can put the money I'd spend on birds into a launcher. ;D


Did you buy a pigeon trap? 
You are in Charleston SC?


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

V-John said:


> Did you buy a pigeon trap?
> You are in Charleston SC?


Still need to get a trap, but yes I'm in SC.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Gosh you are just up the road from Mo.... I know he used to have training days up at his place on the weekends, but I'm not sure if he is still doing that or not. That would be a great opportunity.

If/When you get a trap, let me know. I can help with that.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

V-John said:


> Gosh you are just up the road from Mo.... I know he used to have training days up at his place on the weekends, but I'm not sure if he is still doing that or not. That would be a great opportunity.
> 
> If/When you get a trap, let me know. I can help with that.


Will do. I really appreciate your help! 

Yeah Mo, is more like 3-4 hours up the road. That drive would be worth it though. From his website it looks like he still does those Saturday training sessions.


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