# "Puppy Mill" Vs. Disreputable Breeder



## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

How do you differentiate between a puppy mill and a disreputable breeder? Also, what would you say makes a breeder disreputable? I used to feel very proud to have purchased Riley from what I thought was a reputable breeder, but now I'm not sure if she's the best we could have found. All of her females have a litter every year - this didn't bother me until I found out that reputable breeders only breed every 2 years or so (if that). She owns the sire for 2 of the females and has had repeat breedings every year since 2008. I'm a little concerned about this - couldn't this cause an issue with inbreeding somewhere down the line? Also, she breeds her females immediately after they hit 2 years of age and have their hips tested. I know that she loves her dogs and she takes great care of them (they live indoors unless they want to go outside and they sleep in bed with the family). But I feel like she's breeding only for money.

Thoughts?

I also have to say - Riley is the sweetest Vizsla I have ever met. She adores people and animals of all ages, shapes, and sizes. She is an excellent hunter with great drive and is extremely biddable. Even if her breeder isn't the best, we lucked out!


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> But I feel like she's breeding only for money.


Let your conscience be your guide. No one gets "rich" breeding dogs on a small scale.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/07/dont-support-backyard-breed.html

The ethics in the treatment of the bitches is paramount. Are they just wombs on four legs or are they well treated members of the family?

I'll leave it at that.

RBD


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Ottom - sad 2 say there R puppy mills & disreputable breeders - just a fact of life - if every new V owner had 2 read this forum - the V stands a better chance of being what they R a gundog - this preaching to the choir !


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

When I was looking for a breeder to get my puppy from, I was also wondering about this. But I don't think anymore that the amount of breeding per year is the best way to tell a good breeder from a puppy mill. 

If the breeder doesn't have a specific goal, then it doesn't matter if they breed a little or a lot. It can go wrong either way. 

On the other hand, if a breeder has a clear plan and knows what he/she is doing, then to achieve that plan they would have to breed more frequently so that the plan comes to life, so to speak, in their lifetime. So I'd say it comes to knowing enough about genetics and having a clear goal. 

My breeder has about three to four litters a year. She has set her "foundation" within the standard and has made sure these are "good" dominant genes that do not produce ill health effects. Now she's adding layers to it by breeding to other line-bred dogs, for instance going from "good" to "outstanding" nose ability or birdiness. 

I know this is bragging, but I can tell I have an exceptional puppy. The other day, I was talking to a trainer (hopefully, the trainer we will finally settle on - that's a torturous saga on its own) and he said that knowing her breeding results over the years he's 99.9% certain that my dog will pass JH with minimal training and no check cords. 

I think the most difficult thing for people who are just researching the breeders is to learn how to tell which breeder has a plan versus which breeder is just guessing every time and throwing the dice. 

What I did was read about dog breeding first to get an idea and then talked to my breeder for over an hour to understand what she's trying to achieve with the breed. It took a while but the idea to do it came from this forum - doing the homework always pays off.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

I prefer a *healthy dog* from a disreputable breeder (read... average dog). Puppy mills are not on my list.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

R said:


> if every new V owner had 2 read this forum...


RE - I wish that actually made a difference. I spent a fair bit of my time PM'ing back and forth with someone who was looking at Vizsla puppies recently on _*this forum*_, looking up the health records, etc. and they still bought the puppy because it was close to home, despite the fact that everyone was telling them it was iffy, the parents weren't OFA'd, Sire and Dam both on site, multiple litters per year - no health tests, who knows if they'll even actually get the registration etc., etc. 
Now I already read about UTI Vet calls, puppy biting, etc. 

yada yada yada. 

The fact is that Puppies are cute and when you show up and sit down with them, it's VERY difficult to say - "Pass". People told them this going in, but they didn't listen or didn't believe...

People want INSTANT and Convenient and overlook, justify or trivialize every flag everyone experienced tells them - at least on their FIRST pup. After they personally deal with the expense and emotional pain of health issues, temperment issues, breeder sticking around shorter than a Jet stream on a windy day and actually get stung they just don't believe it's any big deal...

Then six - 18 months later we see lots of these same dogs surrendered to Rescue - the breeder is still breeding, people still buy because we're a gotta have it NOW society and it's ok for many to dump the "lemon" and get a new model.

Ok - sorry - rant over.

sigh.
K


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Ken you can lead them to water - but you can not make them drink ! just my hope that when looking for a pup that you will have over 14yrs - hunt with - love - part of your family - that you use your mind first and then your heart Ps - if you help one person to get the right pup - expose a disreputable breeder or puppy mill then Ken you are my HERO! - hang in there - I know how you feel


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

My estimate is that 90% of Hungarian Vizsla Forum visitors and members won't be around on the forum by the time their dog is 18 to 24 months old. By then the CUTE PUP is now a HUNTING DOG.

Puppy buyers. Try and visit with a dozen Vizsla owners *FIRST* before ever going to see a breeder. Spend time with adult Vizslas with their owners. 

It has been said many times. Once you see your first Vizsla pup you will want to buy it. Just how the heart works. I stand guilty myself. But with a year of research on health and breeding behind me. Owning a Hungarian Pointer is a 15 year commitment and tens of thousands of dollars spent (or more). Is it worth it to you and your family? MAKE SURE.

RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Years ago I used to make good money buying horses that people thought they wanted. They understood nothing about horses but bought one anyway, or bought it for their kid that quickly grew bored with it. I would have the horse for 2-3 months training and working with them. Then resale them for a profit. Some of the horses I couldn't part with and they stayed.
It is a I want it NOW world, and what they want changes with each season. Extremely smart people seem to throw all reason aside when it comes to animals. 
You can't force someone (breeders/buyers) to be a responsible or compassionate person.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

This forum benefits from amazing insight and many years of cumulated experience dispensed selflessly. 
It is not all too uncommon for people to make up their own mind 8) we all do it. What we don't realize is how we came about making up our minds.... ;D


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## Suliko (Sep 17, 2011)

As Benjamin Franklin said: "_Wise men learn by others’ harms, fools scarcely by their own._"


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the re-charge. 

All I could think of at the time was a recent facebook joke of someone's invention of a new word.

"Askhole" - a Person who seeks your advise and counsel then completely ignores it.
;D


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

WillowyndRanch said:


> Thanks everyone for the re-charge.
> 
> All I could think of at the time was a recent facebook joke of someone's invention of a new word.
> 
> ...


I'll have to pass the new word on to my husband.
He owners and runs a auto mechanic shop and deals with them on a weekly basis.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Harness for pulling, collar for control (thanks for that one, Ken)... even if individually may seem slow :-[, the forum is smart and learns fast. 

Your time is not wasted, indeed, much appreciated,
Julius


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

For those shopping for pups on the internet the below picture and statement holds true.

RBD


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## jjohnson (Nov 9, 2011)

Our puppy's breeder fit every typical standard for a "reputable breeder". I researched a lot before hand, and he fit the bill. I got all the health certifcates, a pedigree or history of breeding, (whatever it is called) going several generations back, a health gaurantee, etc., etc. I spoke to the guy on the phone and asked a lot of questions. Also, he has stayed involved with us, answering questions, checking up on our dog, etc., and it is clear he really cares about the individual dogs. He has kept in touch with owners of past breeders, and they have won field and show awards.

Still, we got a puppy with major temperment issues. The ONE mistake I made was not meeting BOTH parents first. This way I would have learned that the mother had fear/anxiety issues, which passed 100% to our puppy. So my lesson learned was regardless of the breeder, you MUST meet both parents.


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## Emily1970 (Apr 21, 2011)

We made the mistake of not doing enough research on the breeder we bought Riley from. Researched the breed extensively and since the breeder had lots of references, big name clients, yadda yadda, we thought they were ok. What we didn't realize is they were breeding the same sire and dam continually and even though their pedigree was high, my Riley paid the price. Our rescue (we do know who his parents are) has been a breeze. I for one knowing what I do now will for the future save the money I would pay a breeder and rescue a V in need.


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## pippa31 (Aug 2, 2011)

I thought I had done a good job picking our breeder. Our breeder fit many of the characteristics I had researched about reputable breeders:
-hip certifications
-dna registered on both sire and dam
-i met both sire and dam 
-breeder helped with puppy picking and I think she did a really good job for our family
-health guarantee and certifications
-dogs housed in house with family, etc.

And then, this year, I heard she was breeding Pippa's mom for a 4th time. My understanding (from this forum) is that could be called over-breeding. Especially since we just got Pippa last year. That means 4 litters of puppies in 5 1/2- 6 years. I don't know. Seems not right to me, from what I know now.

So, this forum has helped me personally. It has really broadened my knowledge base about all things Vizsla AND what goes into a successful and healthy breeding. I think part of what I get out of this forum is the ability to see when I have made a mistake and the knowledge to know how to correct my mistake in the future. That, in itself, is valuable.

I will pick another breeder next time (I actually already have one I have reached out to for a potential second dog at some point) OR we will do a rescue.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Pip = great pup 2 a great home - VVe liVe VVe learn - then - VVe get a Vizsla - you R so lucky - any lotto numbers 4 this week ? hard work does mean something eVen 2 day!


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