# Object aggression in 6 month old V



## Sarahjim (Oct 24, 2012)

Let me first say that my adorable 6 mo old V, Nate, is lovable, playful, and very sweet 99% of the time. However, last night was the worst incident of his object aggression and it has me extremely considered. After a walk and run/play session off lead in a fenced in field Nate found a piece of tissue paper and started to chew on it. I didn't want him to eat it so when I told him to 'drop it' he started to grow, and show his teeth. I realized he wasn't going to give it up on his own so I tried to grab the tissue from his mouth. At this time he started to growl aggressively and began to bite me very hard drawing blood. I finally managed to put him in a submissive position on his side (something we learned in an obedience class), which uses minimal force but he continued to try to bite me and growl and bare his teeth. He finally calmed down and was up wagging his tail like nothing had happened. When we got inside he was tired and ready to cuddle like he usually is. I'm very concerned with these 'episodes', even though they are infrequent, they seem to be escalating. Any advice? They make me feel like I'm doing something wrong...please help!


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Welcome to the forum Sarahjim. I am sorry to hear about Nate's possessive aggression. He is still a very young dog so Don't get too despondant. I am not going to try to suggest a solution as I have not had any experience of this problem, but there are quite a few members who are very experienced with this sort of problem and I am sure they will reply.

There are several threads on the subject. Use the search box on the right hand side of the screen and search the word aggression. You might find some useful informatiion there.

Good luck I am sure it is fixable.


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

Yeah, I feel like there are a lot of posts about this sort of thing, so definitely do some investigating on here. 

We had this issue with our male pup too. It wasn't as bad up until 1 year but then it probably peaked at around age 1.5 to 2 years, so older than your dog. The incidents weren't very frequent but like you say they were something to be concerned about. 

We worked with a behaviorist and basically, we had to ratchet up the discipline big time and remind him who's boss:

- No sleeping in the bed (still doesn't sleep in the bed with us but does get invited in for cuddle son a regular basis)
- No sofa privileged unless he was invited (we're more lax on this now) 
- He had to sit before he could receive his food bowl (still does) 
- He could not free feed. The bowl was down for 15 minutes and if he did't eat it, he'd have to wait for the next meal (still does) 
- Make him sit before you exit or enter a doorway (we're not always great about this) 
- You enter doorways before him (we're not always great about this) 
- You walk up or down stairs before him (we're not always great about this) 
- Make sure he heels on on-leash walks and isn't "walking you" (heeling is pretty much the norm for him now) 

Granted, your guy is still a baby and won't be ready for all of this yet but these may be some tips to keep in mind in the future if you need them.

Our guy is 7.5 years old now and we have still have occasional episodes where he may try to test us by giving al ow growl or baring his teeth, but he pretty much knows the drill now and backs down.


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## David (Jul 17, 2012)

tough topic, this is like parenting children (only much more rewarding LOL), everyone has they're own style. flynnandlunasmom got a good list going

I'll tell you what I do; everything, and I mean everything, comes through me to the dog. If I didn't give it, then she doesn't get it. 

Mika never crosses thresholds with out an invitation, bed room, bathroom, front door, car door, you name it! If i didn't invite her she doesn't cross it. Her crate even, the door can be open but if I haven't called her out, she'll sit there and wait. Same goes for food and water, she sits and waits for the correct command (quite fun to see because she will flinch but once shes heard the whole command and it isn't "ok mika" she pulls back and falls back in place.)

With her toys if i take them shes not to touch them when in my hand or until I've let her. She has learned that for her to get what she wants she must fallow my command first. 

This is a daily ritual, some times I forget and because several of the doors in my house are spring loaded she gets left behind. fortunately her voice works because she whines to let me know I forgot her.  

All In all, Mika is an amazing puppy, I almost feel as though shes not a puppy. She's soon to be 6 months old as well and I have never experienced any of the hardships most have expressed in the forum, I guess I've just been lucky. Granted I do work from home and that is certainly and advantage ;D

One last thing, when i have had to discipline, I never hit, I grab the nape of her neck and force her to the floor (Not done as rough as it sounds) hand in a relax and deep tone I tell her no and hold her there for a moment. Depending of the severity of what it was, once I've said that I'll stand over her in an intimidating way (much like you see dogs do to each other) and don't let her stand up for a few moments. This drives home the disapproval and establishes your dominance. As for the biting I'll grab her snout, not with an iron grip, but strong enough that I can control the direction she faces, all the while saying "no" in the same calm deep tone. After a second she'll give a whine and Ill let go. After either of these corrections i transition into a positive situation, I'll either invite her to play or bring her in for a cuddle. The quick transition is just as important as the correction. She gets only a second or so to brood before I bring back the positive environment. 

Good luck with your pup!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

David Welcome to the forum.
One thing you wrote that struck me hard was
*quite fun to see because she will flinch * 
Although I make my dogs mind, I never want to see one of them flinch. My dogs are hunters and need to be able to think and make decisions in the field. They should not be scared to make a mistake.


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## David (Jul 17, 2012)

Its not a scared flinch, its more like;

Shes sitting in front of her bowl, waiting for the release command. I'll say good girl after some silence, she'll make like I released her but then realizes shes wasn't released and will resume the sit position. this is all on her own, with out me correcting her. 

Its interesting to see because with all of her puppy excitement she manages to wait till release, many times I'll be in the next room before I release her. next time she feeds I'll record her ;D

There is no fear involved, just respect


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

My dogs eat when I feed them.....if that's before I eat, then so be it.
My dogs can enter a doorway first.........if I allow it....
My dogs can sleep on/in the bed........... Because I allow it.....

I don't see any of this causes aggression of resource guarding. 

In my mind, it's about your dog knowing you are a strong, fair and benevolent pack leader. This will ensure those moments of aggression towards you don't happen. 

How do you get that respect? With time and patience. Be consistent, make them obey every command immediately. This will happen with repetition and consistency and nothing else. 

Pups are not a lot different to kids. They push boundaries to see what happens. When they push, you just need to consistently correct them. Never allow an indiscretion to go unnoticed. Never let one slide. Pup will get it in the end. Just have some patience and don't expect it to happen overnight. At 6 months, he/she is just exploring and testing you and the world.


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

Just like Ozkar my boy eats before us sometime and sometimes after. Same with doors although he isn't allowed in bed or upstairs in our house.

Right back to you problem as my boy who is now 17 months old did a similar thing at around 6 months old. One you should stop throwing him on his side. That is old school and in my opinion in V actually makes them even more fired up. My solution for this was all about waiting him out calmly. 

I am guessing you got frustrated and told him really harshly to drop it!!!! This caused him to tighten up and then when you went to remove it he put his teeth on you. Well switch and put yourself into his paws. He is 6 months old so still quite young. You are big and angry and telling him to drop this lovely tasty new and exciting thing. He has hormones running through his body that now tell him to protect himself. You get where I'm going here. In other words how scary for him and then to top it off you flip him on his side where he feels even more helpless.

Work on the 'drop it' command with him every night. Get him excited with a toy and then tell him 'drop it' with a treat in your hand. Give him the treat and then repeat. Get him excited again and then give the command and then treat. Every time he drops that toy throw a little party and really praise him.
So what did I mean about waiting it out. We if your pup pick something up and when you give the 'drop it' command and he tightens up you will notice he stops chewing. What you then need to do is as soon as he starts to either one chew or move in any way you repeat the command again. You do this until he is so tired he drops the object. This could take 10 mins or longer. My boy once went 30 mins with a marrow bone. The outcome though is that you earn his respect without anger or even physical intervention. The exercise only ends though not only when he drops it but when he has dropped it and is no longer over the object. 
Responding to object guarding in an aggressive manor means you are actually training him to defend! So better to out wait him. He is young and Mac was sorted after doing this 3 times. The is practice like made with the 'drop it' command and stay calm.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

born36 said:


> This caused him to tighten up and then when you went to remove it he put his teeth on you. Well switch and put yourself into his paws.


I'm sure I'll get an earful on this response, so be it.

I am all for a compassionate and level headed response. However, there is a time that one needs to be absolutely clear and if a dog bites, that's most definitely the time. I would much rather a dog submit - preferably out of respect, but even if in fear - than bite me or someone else again. 
*Confidence can be restored, there are instances where instilling a respectful fear is required for the long term goal or safety of both dog and owner. * 
I'd argue that Fear itself is a level of respect and if you watch a pack, you'll see the alpha move and the dogs beneath it will give way out of respect - respect that if they don't mind their place their will be consequences from the alpha. They've achieved that level of respect by testing the alpha at some point past and understanding it can be a painful experience. It doesn't mean they're cowering, but they know the line and a dog will be quick and consistently corrected. If a dog goes to assert his/her dominance over me, they will learn quickly and humanely that this leader will not tolerate it. Period. No discussion, no coochy coochy coo, poor baby. These dogs aren't cowering, but they know who's the boss. If I'm "big and angry", I expect him to drop and flee. Standing his ground and biting is not Fear, it's testing for your place in the pack.

*If the dog chooses to fight by not giving way to the alpha, which is a bite then you are in a dogfight.*
From the Paws perspective, they're challenging you and willing to fight you for the top spot. The medium might be a wad of tissue paper or holding the high ground on the bed. Regardless the initiator, it's not a human thing, it's a dog thing. I believe when this happens one is likely fighting for the life of the dog. If we as alphas don't "win", the dog loses either way. The dog may win the fight but lose the battle to a white coat and a needle full of green juice. 

So 6 month old Pup picks up a dead Rat head in the garden. Are we to spend 30 minutes baiting and waiting out the dog to get it away from him? What if the Rat or mouse he's carrying was a poison kill? By this age I guarantee I've chased down the little rebel hundreds of times, grabbed him up and pulled god knows what from his mouth, fingers swishing around trying to keep the little bugger alive and healthy. I've got a 12 week old here that I swear finds rodent parts left over from owls or hawks kill, scat of all kinds, weeds, twigs, pieces of string or wire, virtually anything he can put his mouth on - we should name him Hoover. He brings me everything and I thank him for that truly disgusting whatever and off he goes to find another "treasure". He does find some things that are just "too good" and then I get hold of him and physically take it away, right then, no discussion, no debate, no fear, no problem. 

I do agree it is good policy to train "drop it" or "leave it". It can help in many situations. All dogs, at some time however, will find an especially disgusting tasty or dangerous "treat" and not respond to that. One needs to be able to physically intervene without worrying about a bite.

I think you did fine. The only thing I'd suggest is not to try to make up to him. It's up to him to make up to you, and alphas will make their subordinates earn it. Shunning him for a few minutes and making him stay out of your space is a great tool. It's like dog time out, but not behind a gate or in a crate - that loses the message to a degree. It's what dogs do - train like a dog.

Good luck
Ken


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

Ozkar, I wanted to clarify that i don't think allowing your dog to do those things ( enter doors before you or eat before you etc.) causes aggression. All i was saying is that IF you have a dog with aggression, ratcheting up the discipline in those areas is a good thing to do to keep that aggression at bay. If you have a dog who challenges you, it is a way to keep him in check and remind him that you're strong, fair and benevolent as you say. Not all dogs will challenge but some will and this method helped us.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Owning a non dominant, happy go lucky dog you can have laxed rules if you want, choose whether or not you let him sleep with you. Owning a biter that tests your authority is different. Give them and inch and they will take a mile. The quicker you get them under control the better.
They have to know for every action there is a reaction.
Cause and effect. You growl or bite and this happens. You act good and this happens.
I don't advise people to do a alpha roll on a snarling Vizsla.
They are like trying to hold a shark while it swinging its head back and forth. There is a very good chance your going to get bitten worse, and losing the fight is not an option. I use a slip collar. With my arm extended pulling straight up (not jerking) raise the dogs front feet slightly off the ground. Now the dog has to quit challenging me in order to breath.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Well to respond to the posts stating that a biter needs firmer discipline, with perhaps some degree of fear. I disagree. Although I haven't said much, I have had a few aggression issues with my laid back pup Astro. Not two days ago, he gave another dog more than a correction. He has demonstrated aggression at times with not only other dogs, including Zsa Zsa, but also me. However, through being consistent with his training and correcting him when it occurred, we now have a handle on it. He is still allowed to sleep on the bed and can eat when I determine it, be that before me or not. So I disagree that these priveledges cause the dominance or aggression. They either have a tendency towards it or not.


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

Ozkar, again, no one is saying those behaviors (eating before you, sleeping in bed etc.) cause aggression. I said the same thing just a few posts ago. 

What I was saying (and some others were agreeing with) is that IF you have a dog with aggressive tendencies not allowing those behaviors can help get things in control.

How we each handle our dogs is up to us so what works for you or me may not work for everyone. But, I just wanted to state again,that no one has said that allowing those behaviors will cause a dog to be aggressive. However, stopping those behaviors can help control a dog who already is aggressive.


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

WillowyndRanch said:


> born36 said:
> 
> 
> > This caused him to tighten up and then when you went to remove it he put his teeth on you. Well switch and put yourself into his paws.
> ...


Thank you Ken for saying what you said, you just saved me so much typing. I realize we all want to be PC, but come on! Alpha is not a PC job and Vizslas are not that soft where they cannot take a correction. There absolutely is no tolerance in my house for a dog that will bite, period. That dog is dealt with swiftly as this is a very dangerous situation. If you want to train your dog think and act like the top dog, not a human. As much as we like to think they are human, they are not. they are still descendants from the wolf and have those primal instincts. And an alpha dog that is being challenged quickly puts down the challenge or no longer is alpha. Luckily I have not been put in that situation for a long time. Now as ken, i believe all training should be as gentle as it can be to get the job done. Just remember at the end of the day you are leading your dog or your dog is leading you. 

Joe


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Regardless of what happened, it's obvious that your dog doesn't respect you.

I would start out with mild negative stimulus in response to his resource guarding and work your way up from there. I've never seen someone get a good result from pinning an angry dog on its side.

Mild stimulus - spritz from water bottle, compressed air spray, shaking a can full of pennies
Harsher - pinch/choke collar correction
Most Harsh - eCollar correction

The mild and harsher stimuli have to be done on-leash or the pup can just run away with the item in his mouth. I would be surprised if a simple spritz of water in the face didn't help to resolve the issue. My pups HATE being sprayed with water and immediately go into submissive/sulking mode when they get doused.


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

threefsh said:


> Most Harsh - eCollar correction


OBJECTION YOUR HONOR! ;D


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

jcbuch said:


> threefsh said:
> 
> 
> > Most Harsh - eCollar correction
> ...


Noted...


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

jcbuch said:


> WillowyndRanch said:
> 
> 
> > born36 said:
> ...


I will have to disagree with you and Ken on this one. Sorry I just can't see how a physical correction helps a dog to realize that they shouldn't act out in a physical manor. To me it like when a mother yells at there children 'NO YELLING" In other words you are using the exact behaviour that you want the dog not exhibit. They are trying to impose themselves physically and so you impose your self back. So now you are in dog fight. This whole Alpha crap doesn't wash. It is old school. If you can mentally out do your pup you earn respect, it you can scare them then you earn fear. I don't want to use physical correction to correct physical behaviour. This just results in the pup later when feeling ready to challenge to use physical force again. I am not suggesting to move away your physical presents is what will correct them. Even Ceasar Milan who is all Alpha happy himself uses the method to which I spoke about above to train out guarding. You can not correct guarding by getting into a physical altercation with your pup you can only make them scared to guard things from you.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

born 36, I've always respected your ideas, and your method is sound. It will work really well on a dog who is testing, but not on one who is aggressive.
The OP's dog bit them, and that is serious business imo. 

I think WillowyndRanch's post was excellent.
I've never owned a dog that bit me, or one that was aggressive at all, but I have been around them, and know that I carry myself differently than many people.
No fear. If you have fear, the dog has won before the fight ever started.


I believe that you're talking about 2 very different scenarios.
Growling is testing and doesn't take much to break.
One that bites its owner needs immediate action imo.

V's are lovely animals, and I think people sometimes forget that they are in fact dogs.
If you've never seen an aggressive V, it may be hard to believe, but trust me, they can look just as angry as any other dog.


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

born36 said:


> I will have to disagree with you and Ken on this one. Sorry I just can't see how a physical correction helps a dog to realize that they shouldn't act out in a physical manor. To me it like when a mother yells at there children 'NO YELLING" In other words you are using the exact behaviour that you want the dog not exhibit. They are trying to impose themselves physically and so you impose your self back. So now you are in dog fight. This whole Alpha crap doesn't wash. It is old school. If you can mentally out do your pup you earn respect, it you can scare them then you earn fear. I don't want to use physical correction to correct physical behaviour. This just results in the pup later when feeling ready to challenge to use physical force again. I am not suggesting to move away your physical presents is what will correct them. Even Ceasar Milan who is all Alpha happy himself uses the method to which I spoke about above to train out guarding. You can not correct guarding by getting into a physical altercation with your pup you can only make them scared to guard things from you.


your logic is sound to a human and we can agree to disagree and remain friendly. however, alpha is not old school, it is still very much accepted and I love watching Caesar Milan, but that is a TV show and you dont see the failed dogs. you really think Caesar walks into someones house and in one day its all good? dogs work innately by a different set of rules. Now before i am vilified as a monster, 1) its been 20 years since i had a dog that bit someone, 2) my dogs know completely who is Alpha and no fear or intimidation was ever used. Just good positive reinforced training. 2) I do not advocating physical harm as you maybe imagining, but if one of my dogs ever bit myself or my family, i will respond in the way of an alpha dog, not a PC human. More than likely that dog would have one more opportunity for rehabilitation in my house. Then it would be found a foster home if possible. but if that dog cannot be rehabilitated, it no longer will have a place in my home. The safety of myself and my family are of paramount importance to me.

Joe


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Here is a video from Cesar Milan on how he helped a Vizsla with resource guarding issues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lilctYKtr9k&sns=em

I don't usually agree with his methods, but the way he handled the Vizsla was very effective.


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

Mischa said:


> born 36, I've always respected your ideas, and your method is sound. It will work really well on a dog who is testing, but not on one who is aggressive.
> The OP's dog bit them, and that is serious business imo.
> 
> I think WillowyndRanch's post was excellent.
> ...


I am just questioning the use of the term aggressive here. I often do in young dogs. This is a 6 month old pup that is challenging for the first time. If this challenge was harshly reacted to by the owner it might be the reason that the pup bit. So rather than label the pup aggressive it could be that it is acting so in this instant due to the stress put on it in this situation.

I fully respect your methods too Mischa and Ken and jcbuch. I have never owned an aggressive dog. I am simply based on the story assuming that actually this is a pup that is challenging for the first time and that the reaction to the pup may have caused the pup to bite. This could be the wrong assumption but due to the pups age and that this is the first time and that soon afterwards the dog was okay and happy I would think it is a test put out by the pup and not that the pup is aggressive.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

threefsh said:


> Here is a video from Cesar Milan on how he helped a Vizsla with resource guarding issues:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lilctYKtr9k&sns=em
> 
> I don't usually agree with his methods, but the way he handled the Vizsla was very effective.


What I respect most about him, and what anti-Cesar's don't seem to realize, is that Cesar can read a dog, and know how it needs to be handled to help it. He doesn't worry about offending dog lovers because he is there to do what the dog needs, and gets the job done. 
Sometimes that means putting a dog in its place by biting its neck, and sometimes it means sitting next to a dog for hours until it trusts him.

I think we amateurs get into trouble with our dogs when we apply the wrong correction, be it too soft, or too hard. 

We're very lucky to have a hunting trainer of the same ilk as Cesar.

I wish I had that gift. 
I love dogs and the more I learn about them, the more I'd love to earn a living working with them.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

threefsh said:


> Here is a video from Cesar Milan on how he helped a Vizsla with resource guarding issues:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lilctYKtr9k&sns=em
> 
> I don't usually agree with his methods, but the way he handled the Vizsla was very effective.


I just knew that V would be called Ruby!! lol!


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

born36, dogs in a pack correct each other with physical corrections. That's what they respond to. And to say that the "whole Alpha crap doesn't wash" just means that you're obviously the Alpha in your house. I hope you never have to deal with a V who challenges you physically (biting/aggression) because you may change your tune. I think we all have to assume that the Original Poster knows the difference between normal, acceptable puppy behavior and behavior one should be concerned abut. Those of us who have witnessed it first hand know it exists.


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## David (Jul 17, 2012)

Also, though everyone read it, the dog drew blood with adult teeth. An important fact. That wasn't a check, or correction. 

Ive always understood, people before dogs. If the dog doesn't know/understand that everyone (within the friendly circle, or people in general) are above them, then bad leadership is at play. Like others have said, as an owner, and most importantly as a human, when one reaches to get something from the dog, biting should never be tolerated. because if the dog did this to the owner, an adult, imagine when kids are around. 

Another thing most of us have to realize, we have all done things early in our dogs life to avoid this, and the 2 things specifically were, never to bite, and understanding that we take things away and then give them back sometimes. 

A lot of the informal training I did with Mika was like that, I would reach for her toy, take it, she would then have to fallow a command, like sit, leave it, stay, etc. and then she'd get it back once she has obeyed. I in effect tells her, she must cooperate or she doesn't get what I can provide.


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## NeverGiveUpRAC (Aug 27, 2012)

I agree with Ken and also with threefsh! There are different answers to every dog. You've got to nip the behavior asap. I had this problem and while he doesn't growl or show teeth anymore we are always on alert for signs. 

The only thing Ken, is the perfect comment you said about "then you are in a dogfight" 

...I felt like when I first got Cole at 5 months, he had no respect for anyone. He did not trust me, did not respect me. It took time for him to learn his place with him earning his place as a subordinate to me and my family. I made him work for everything. Soon enough he just let me take things from him because of trust. Now, when he acts up I swat his thigh to let him know it is not acceptable. But this was not possible before because when I would use "physical correction" it would DEFINITELY turn into a dogfight! He was NOT giving up, didn't care who I thought I was, etc. 

Thankfully, time, patience and consistency was worked for me. Lots of slow, calm time when he would grab something he shouldn't have. He has grown out of it. 

Two steps forward, one step back though...

Good luck to the poster! Keep us updated!


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## Sarahjim (Oct 24, 2012)

Thank you everyone for your advice and thoughts. Since the incident happened I have been enforcing my 'alpha-ness' and increased the training. I can see small changes in our little Nate and I'm excited to see even bigger ones soon!


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