# Using a Professional Trainer?



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Have you ever remodeled something on your house? Ever fixed your own car?
Painted a car? Fixed the plumbing?

Well, I've done all those things myself. Am I professional? No, but they turned out "all right."

I have come to the conclusion that if I want Bailey to become more than "all right" it is time for a professional to take him to find his potential.

Is this right thinking? I'm not sure yet. I'm a "do it yourself" kind of guy. But on the other-hand I don't want Bailey to just be an "all right" field dog. He is good. Actually he is better than good.

So my friend, Ken, who was a field trial professional years ago and then stopped to make real money in construction (but we know how that went into the toilet) has started back into training pointing breeds again, with his specialty Vizslas.

He has to build up a client base and so Bailey is going to boarding school with Ken and Janet. I will be blogging these adventures on Redbirddog as we move through Senior Hunter, Master Hunter and back into field trails.

I have faith in Ken and am happy to be on his team.

http://willowyndranch.com/

He could use some more Vizslas to train. It's a tough way to make a living.

You have to love dogs a whole lot to try and make a go of it.

Stay tuned. Off to a Senior Hunt test with Ken handling Bailey. I have "failed" in 9 attemps at passing a leg of either first Master and then stepping back to Senior. 

Sometimes I just have to admit. "Rod, you ain't that good."

RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I hear you. We always second guess ourselves when putting our dogs in someone else's hands. Finding the right trainer is SO important.

Cash will be force fetched over the summer. Not something I look forward to. In fact I have tried every other method with him to keep from having to do this. I can make him bring birds all the way to me on hunts, but in trials or hunt test he knows Mom can't move from the spot and there is no ecollar. That means he will bring the bird 10 feet from me. Then I have to send him back and its 5 feet from me. Then I have to send him back again, and the last 5 feet he will go as slow as he can to hold the bird longer.
This is not an uncommon problem with a dominant dog.
He will be force fetched by a pro. My trainer says "Oh what fun."
Force fetching a dominant dog that's soft on training. He will be walking a tight rope. Just enough pressure but not an ounce more. Too much and my dog will shut down. Not enough and his retrieves won't be reliable. 
The only good part is the trainer is only ten minutes from my house, so I will still get to see him.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Just came home from Bailey *passing* his first leg of *Senior Hunt Test * at the Sutter Buttes Pointer Club event. 12 dogs entered and only Bailey and 1 other dog passed. 

Yesterday only 1 in 12 dogs passed in the driving cold spring rain that blew through with winds over 40 mph. It was miserable to say it lightly.

Feels good. 9 attempts before on my own as Bailey's handler. 9 times we failed. Yesterday and today I let Ken take the boy out. We'll do it again next weekend at the German Wirehair Club of Northern California event. Out in a field doing a hunt test on the day before and Easter day. A wide open field in nature with good people, dogs and horses. Nice church if you ask me.

Bailey is back with Ken for a week more of tune up. We are getting there.

TexasRed, good luck with the force fetch. One of the things Ken is working on. In two Master hunt tests last fall, we failed because Bailey brought the bird to within 3 feet and dropped it and then left to do more hunting. He has done that pheasant hunting several times. Tough one for sure.

Posting pictures and story on Redbirddog.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2012/04/bailey-passes-first-leg-of-senior-hunt.html


Happy trails and trials,
RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

RBD
Have you asked your trainer to be a member of the forum?
I'm a member of a hunting forum that has some trainers on it.
Yes they are busy people and not on it everyday, but they do post some interesting topics. Some are videos training young pups to finished dogs. They will post some answers to problem questions. Its great for the forum and has a plus side for the trainer. People get to see his style of training and become more comfortable with him, which leads to more business.


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

Congratulations Rod on Bailey's achievement. Good luck with the upcoming trial as well. I've always viewed the woods as a cathedral of sorts so I can relate to a field being a church. Both are good balm for my soul.

Force fetch training is a specialty even among pros. Best of success TR.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Intellectual property removed by author.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Congrats to RBD/Bailey! 
You must be so pleased after putting so much time towards it. Good luck on passing all of the legs.

WillowyndRanch, welcome to the forum. 
I look forward to reading your advice. 

-Dennis


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

So glad to have you aboard. It would be so nice to have an alternative to Force Fetch. Its the part of training no one looks forward to.
My dog Cash is strong willed, hard headed and dominate. Were like two peas in a pod and get along great. Ive already worked him through the process of hold, so I hoping he won't be gone to long. He is on the waiting list and will leave as soon as they have an opening.

I have two other Vs one has a natural retrieve, the other is still up in the air.
If your experiment works out I might have to send the younger one to you.
Thanks Deb.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Train Trainer or Train wreck - this forum has great advice by some very knowledgeable people remember 1 thing a GREAT trainer trains you as well as the PUP - If they do not want to work with you too - you are just wasting money


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

REM, at one point in training though,* I* had to step away and let the professional dog person "BOND" with Bailey if he was going to be "handling" my dog in performance tests or field trials. A dog can not have two masters at the same time. I will get to a point, most likely in retirement, when I can spend days in the field with the trainer and my dog. Day after day, bird after bird. Just can't do it now. Wish I could, but have a business to keep alive and that takes a lot of time and energy. Don't have a place close by that I can shoot a shotgun in the evening when I get home. Closest training is 70 minutes away.

It was very hard for me to acknowledge that, unlike you and other very long time Vizsla owners, it takes years to get where professionals are. That is how it should be. "Rod, you just ain't that good", was and is hard for me to accept. I love being good at what I do. 

I'm not there. The 9 attempts at failing hunt tests with entry fees, gas, lodging cost me maybe $1,000. $450 just in entry fees. And we had nothing to show for it. It takes 5 passes in Senior and 5 passes in Master. Bailey is able to be a master hunter. I, on the other hand, will never be able to claim that title for myself.

I don't do my own dental work. A dentist takes years to learn his trade. Why would I expect it any easier to learn how to get an intelligent dog to perform flawlessly in hunting at a very high level?

Someone told me getting an AKC Championship can cost a lot. One pro told me a few years ago an answer to that question "How much does it cost?" His short answer: "Yeah lots of money and sometimes your marriage." 

We have hobby motorcycle racers and some car fans on this forum. I love fast boats and fast european cars. You want to talk about serious money. That type of speed equals MONEY CUBED.

Love hunting and love the pointing breed field sports. Great way to spend time outdoors and yes money.

RBD


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Intellectual property removed by author.

Ken


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

PIKE and I have some very close Friends that buy high end PUPs 5k+ they are sent off to school for a year and my friends pick up a finished dog - PIKE has beaten them all in Field trials this is why I think he does - PIKE is my fourth V and truly is mine - the first three were great hunters and great family dogs - 2 sons with the energy of our V's and life was great! The 1 thing I learned from my V's is this - the bond you form with your pup can never be taught by a trainer! PIKE hunts with me - not for me! The best example of this is RBD (number crunching heartless engineer LOL) Before he sent Baily off to a trainer to have a few things finished he knew more about the trainer than the the trainers wife or parents! He met with him - set the goals he wanted and got back his finished dog we hope LOL - the point is a V is not leash candy! they are part of your family and need to be treated with the respect we all deserve


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

My grandfather trained pointers for more than 40 years and my nephew is a retriever trainer. Me, I still need help on occasion. If I run into a stumbling block then I seek help. Ive been bird boy/girl and do it for free. The knowledge I gain is more valuable to me than money. I hope I always have an open mind to new ideas on training. My dogs are my buddies at home and my hunting partners in the field. Both of us have a job to do if we want to bring home birds.

Now if I could just get someone to train my husband not to mess up what me and the dogs worked on all week.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Willow- first let me say as a new member WELCOME to the forum! Please forget all the bull$hit of my post above as a PRO I hope you will stay with US - You answered all of your own questions when you said you were meeting with RBD to bring him up to speed with Bailey! It does take 2 2 tango! as a new member you have never read my posts or replys hope you do not LOL when it comes to a medical ? I say see your VET - when it comes to training read the post's and when in doubt go to a pro - If I ruffled your Grouse feathers sorry! RBD did not pick you by throwing a dart at a phone book - that was my whole point (PIKE does it so well!) stay with US and if you were close to my home I would send PIKE to you to finish and we could both loose are hair!


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Over the last year that I have been on the Hungarian Vizsla Forum I have noticed, to the forum designers and moderators credit, a quality of communication not found many places on the internet.

As much as I love doing my blog, this forum is a whole lot of fun.

What a cast of world wide characters! 8)

Keeping the improvement of the Vizsla front and center. With that as the focus; we can't go wrong! ;D

Happy trails and trials,
RBD


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

And to think I almost erased my account, tried to join a Hungarian language Vizsla forum (their biggest problem is lost and found dogs ;D).... and..... something like this post comes up. BRILLIANT, RBD

I hope Willow will make some videos to reach us here in Canada as well. You can rest assured I will put up the money for my copy if it ever hits light of day (bootlegged most training vids except for Leerburg (too much respect for that guy).



WillowyndRanch said:


> I'm actually experimenting with a positive approach to retrieve training on a couple of my own dogs. Like many people, I find Force Fetch somewhat barbaric from a training standpoint.


Would love to see a Vizsla specific approach. Have seen it on GSD but never seen on Vizsla.

I looked for a copy of this book (see attachment posted). Unfortunately, very few around and one of them resides in the Hungarian National Museum. 


All the best,
Julius


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

I hope WillowyndRanch gets a special avatar. I am thinking something like the moderators have but different color. 
They get to have nice stars even though they don't really moderate much except sipping wine in moderation...

Maybe Calum can weigh in on this,


Julius


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I got the phone call yesterday, so my problem child Cash heads to the trainers in 7 days. He will be there for Force fetch and most likely Force to pile. This is the part of his training that I have not looked forward to. Along with him doing some trials, we are hoping to put a Junior retriever title on him in the Fall.


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## kellygh (Oct 25, 2010)

*and most likely Force to pile*

What is force to pile? Excuse the ignorance


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Is this part of force fetch? I am clueless as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVnCEvm9ywE At position 1:18 is that a Vizsla on the table? He calls it a chocolate lab..

Ear pinch or toe hitch?


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## Linescreamer (Sep 28, 2010)

kellygh said:


> *and most likely Force to pile*
> 
> What is force to pile? Excuse the ignorance


http://patricedodd.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/force-to-the-pile/


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## Linescreamer (Sep 28, 2010)

datacan said:


> Is this part of force fetch? I am clueless as well.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVnCEvm9ywE At position 1:18 is that a Vizsla on the table? He calls it a chocolate lab..
> 
> Ear pinch or toe hitch?


Yes. Just a technique to train a dog to fetch on command. It is very time consumming and most find it very effective when practiced repeatedly.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

He will be useing ear pinch on Cash, mainly due to the fact that force to pile comes next with him.
This video is the closest one I found to what will happen during that part of training. 
http://youtu.be/A5Mfg0ReR_Q


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Thank you. 
I see very crisp and reliable response from the dog. Don't see how it can be achieved any other way. 


From the article Linescreamer posted:

"Think about how it felt when you were first learning to drive, and you’ll get a sense of what learning to hunt-train a dog feels like."

I find this statement very insightful.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Cash loves to hunt, it doesn't matter if its upland or waterfowl. I want him to hunt correctly. Some days he has great retrieves that makes me so proud of him. He never fails to go when sent for a retrieve but sometimes he thinks its okay to drop the bird five feet from me. This will fix the problem and have him deliver to hand every time. 
While he is with a pro I will be doing bird work with the other dogs. Bird work is a lot more enjoyable for me and the dogs..


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

What price a trainer? Priceless - A great trainer knows you have brought your dog to a certain POINT ( just for upland hunters ) at home - in the show ring - in the field - in trials - etc - sometimes you just have to step back and realize your heart and the pup can not take you to the next level if that's what you want - if you go to the next level - know the trainer - and make sure he knows the V!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

R said:


> - know the trainer - and make sure he knows the V!





R said:


> What price a trainer? Priceless


Finding the right trainer is comparable to finding the right breeder. 
I had to wait months for him to have an opening, and yes he knows my dog very well.

A story from last year.
Cash guards my suburban when he is inside it from everyone except his close family.
I only board him with this trainer if we have to go out if town.
I went to drop him off before a trip and was in a hurry, so I didn't crate him.
I pull up at the trainers with Cash on the front seat and he starts doing a low growl as the trainer approaches. 
Just as I'm fixing to correct him, the trainer asks me to step out of the truck. I do and he gets in it sitting on the seat with Cash. Cash is still growling and showing some teeth. He just sits there with him. Then he starts to talk to the dog. Next thing you know Cash has started to relax. Then he is wagging his tail and happy. The trainer steps out of the suburban and Cash follows him to the field. I asked him what he said to him to calm him down. He told me" First we came to an understanding, then we talked about what we were going to do that day."


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Cash heads out to the trainer today. 
Sure going to miss my big lug while he's away.


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

A question on the trainer (sorry if this was already mentioned):

Is it possible to visit the trainer on weekends? Or would it be necessary to send the dog away for some period of time (i.e. they won't train the dog any other way)?

Trying to understand the pro and con of each approach and what each means to the end result. 

Thanks


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/06/get-yourself-great-trainer.html



> Is it possible to visit the trainer on weekends? Or would it be necessary to send the dog away for some period of time (i.e. they won't train the dog any other way)?


Did it that way for 6 months when Bailey was a pup.

RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Most trainers want you to come see how your dog is doing and set time aside just for that reason. 
Some also send you pictures, videos and emails with updates.


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Thanks! A follow up questions for RBD and TexasRed and anyone who has worked with the trainer - I found a GSP trainer for my puppy. 

He told me he has experience with Vizslas too. He owns his own training grounds and provides birds. Offers three packages: I simply use his land and buy birds, or I train with him on weekends, or I kennel my puppy with him for the duration of the training. 

I'll make the first visit hopefully next week just to let the puppy play in the field and maybe get exposed to her fourth bird (she already some fun with quail at the breeder's), and to talk to him and see if there's chemistry and trust. 

But I'm not completely sure how to go about making a decision about which of the three options to pick. I'd like to do both conformation and hunt tests with with my dog, but I'm a total novice at this.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

veifera,

Our first few months were 1/2 hour sessions on Saturday morning up in a borrowed farmers field.

The trainer planted two birds and we worked the birds together.

He was a GWP guy but pointing breed training is identical in it's goals. Field trialing you are going against all the pointing breeds with the GSP being the toughest IMO.

Starting out with the 1/2 hour sessions worked great for me as a complete novice. Now with a few years experience I might do it differently but I needed to understand what the heck was happening so it gave me time between sessions to do some reading and ask questions at our next session.

If you have another Vizsla owner who has been doing this a long time or the breeder who can join you for a couple sessions, like I did, it worked out perfectly.

Good luck. Hope that helps.

RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Things to consider.
What goals would you like your pup to obtain?
Has this trainer taken other dogs to that level before?
If you don't know the trainer very well then I would say do a couple of one on one sessions with him. Decide if you think he is the right match for you and most importantly your dog.
From there you need to know that you working with your pup can be gratifying but the training will take longer.
No one can decide for you which path to take.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

To me it makes the most sense to train with the dog on weekends. You'll get good experience by being part of it.

You'll also love it!!


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

RBD, I was arrogantly thinking that I could train my dogs myself. But, the more I see, the more I read in here and elsewhere, the more I realised that I also needed some professional help. 

I have been kissed on the you know what. I have stumbled across a hunting trainer who has titled his own GSP's and was also the youngest ever winner of a field trial here in Oz. (the dog, not the trainer). He also bred GSP's and has trained 4 or 5 Vizslas as well. He understands the soft nature of the V, thinks in very positive training methodology and believes in taking more time to embed something, than resorting to "other" training aids. Best of all, he's a good bloke!

He is going to be doing all the training with me alongside handling the dog and stepping me through everything. I like this approach, as it teaches me a lot more than if he returned them to me trained and I think I am the one who needs more work than the dogs do.

Once it kicks off, I'll pop a post up and keep you all informed of my progress.......


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> RBD, I was arrogantly thinking that I could train my dogs myself. But, the more I see, the more I read in here and elsewhere, the more I realised that I also needed some professional help.


Ozkar, hard to admit huh?

Very well bred Vizslas are already hard-wired to hunt. Long-time Vizsla owners have admitted that they had to learn, after many years, of how to "get out of the way of nature." Great trainers know how to develop the natural abilities. I'd love to think that in another 10 years of learning, I might be a "good" trainer. 

Good luck with your new mentor. A good mentor is great to find and worth every dollar you spend. Any professional should be compesated well for their knowledge. They are worth it.

RBD


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

At this stage, he has not put his hand out, but, i will be providing him with some form of remuneration, be that buying him arrows, strings or gear, or if I can talk him into it, some cash. 

He is just wrapped that there is another person out there who wants to bow hunt with their dog/s. It's a rare thing here. Most bow hunters like to pit themselves alone against nature. They are real "Purists". This guy however, gets why I want to bow hunt with my dogs AND has the knowledge and experience training them for a bow hunter, as well as other disciplines. So I really landed on my feet with him. 10 days to go and we are going out into the forest together with the dogs, so he can determine where they are at and create a plan to bring them and me along. Really looking forward to it.

To add to that, a very good friend of mine lives on a property an hour from my house. It already has a fully set up practice range, with three sided dirt mounds, which prior to him buying the property, was used by a gun club as their club rooms and range. the club rooms are still there and are fully operational, electricity, water, kitchen, toilets etc., 

Then, to add further even to that, his property and his neighbour's property, back onto a state forest which is a legal hunting area for Samba and other deer. His neighbour has also offered permission to use his property too. So there is about 200 acres of private land to use, a fully functioning range and then thousands of square kilometres of bush where it is legal to hunt!!! Heaven on a stick for two and four legs.

This is a pic he took one day while out on his property........... he reckons they are everywhere.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Cash hasn't been gone long but it sure seems like it.
The first few days he spent getting reacquainted with the trainer.
Then they worked on HOLD together. He had been taught Hold by me but had never had to do it for someone else. The trainer said he was doing very well and they would be moving forward. Cash does not do well when cornered so we both were expecting him to try and bite before it was over with. So when he sent me a video with the title Trying to force fetch a cobra I wasn't surprised. They have moved to a different approach and as of yesterday it seems to be working.
Basically Cash is not always on the table during FF. He gets to do some of it in the field. He has to come to the heel position, fetch when told, then sit , walk at heel, whoa. then deliver to hand when told. If he does everything right he gets to run , hop and play for a few minutes. If he doesn't, he has to do it again. He has went from sometimes showing teeth before he takes the bumper to his biggest improvement. He ran to heel tail wagging and went through all the steps happy and eager.
I go see him once a week on his day off from training. I know he still may have some set backs before its over but he is getting there.

On the funny side there is a female vizsla there for training. She is the only dog that Cash tries to get attention from. He must know red dogs need to stick together and he has good taste. She is a real good looker and a sweetheart too.


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## Linescreamer (Sep 28, 2010)

I am enjoying all the trainer talk. Copper and I have been working with a guy for a while now. Not much improvement. I think at first he was a bit immature, and now, I feel the we need a better trainer. What is said about finding a good trainer is correct. It is very hard. If we were talking about a different dog or a GSP it would be allot easier.


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