# Separation Anxiety



## kenny1991 (Dec 30, 2012)

Hey guys,

Let me just say, this website is an absolute godsend!  

So, my big boy Astro has just turned 15 weeks old today. He is getting so big, and growing so fast! But I have a few problems I would like to ask here.

We got him at 9 weeks from the breeder, so he has been with us for 6 weeks.

He is your typical Vizsla puppy.. absolutely beautiful when he wants to be, loves and thrives for his owners attention and is absolutely ferrel and crazy during his shark attacks and zoomies..

We have seen it all with him. 

So basically, I will give you a run down of everything. First week we had him, we crated him at night (in metal crate) and tried and tried with it, but to no avail. He was constantly crying and wimpering during the night to the point where he woke some of our neighbours up. We live on a small residential street, so its pretty quiet around here.

I ideally would of loved to have left him in the metal crate to cry, cry and cry. Because I think thats the only way he learns, that he doesn't always get what he wants. But my girlfriend couldnt deal with it, and after 1 week he moved into our bed with us.

So it went from him sleeping for 1-2 hours, then crying for attention and then 1-2 more hours sleep and then crying for a wee wee, in his crate. To sleeping through the whole night (not a peep whatsoever) when in bed with us.

So he has been in our beds since week 10 and I have to admit I do love it haha he is like a little hot water bottle (eventhough he is getting too big for sleeping under the sheets).

But this is where I think our problem lies.

So I am a uni student and my partner works from home but also has a casual job just around the corner. So we have worked our timetables out that when I am at uni, she is home and visa versa.

But, of course there is always those times where we have to leave him for 1-2 hours here and there. So for example, she had work today and I went to uni at 10 (left Astro in his crate) and came home at 12. 

The thing is he hates being left alone in his crate. He cries, cries and cries. We have tried everything: put all his toys in there, frozen kong with peanut butter and kibble, denture bones, frozen teatowels, chew toys, sheet over the top of the crate, leave radio on, etc.

He just hates it. Actually the more I think about it, I think he hates the fact that he is being left alone, more than the crate. We can hear him crying as we turn out of the driveway around the corner and down the street.

I think we have paid him to much attention over the past 6 weeks and spoilt him too much that he thinks that he should go everywhere and do everything with us.

For the last two weeks, I have been on uni holidays, so I have been spending all my time with him at home and yeah. 

So my concerns are this: whenever we put him in the crate during the day, he cries bloody murder in there. Then we leave and we can hear him crying. This isn't really the problem to me, because I guess we aren't there to hear the noise and he needs to learn that he has to be left during the day sometimes. But my problem is this: whenever I get home, he looks so distressed that it kills me.

He often has marks all over his nose and face, from where he has been scratching and trying to push through the metal crate. His claws are all stuffed from him scratching the floor of the crate, and he pulls the sheet from the outside of the crate to the inside of the crate and throws his water bowel all over it and makes everything wet. And also, there is spots of water all over the floor. This isn't wee, but its his saliva, and its from him constantly crying and howling in the crate (he spits out the saliva all over the room).

It makes us so distressed that we dont want to even leave him for 5 minutes anymore. 

And finally, tuesday and today, we had to leave him for 2 hours. And both days, he has done all of the above in the crate, as well as, poo (watery diarrhoea) all over the inside of the crate. He even splattered it all over the white walls of the bathroom. 

And its weird because he has been fine while we are at home. His poo's have been solid and normal and there has been no changes in his behaviour all week. So i'm assuming this diarrhoea would be from being so stressed out? 

It also must be said that we have realised that he has lost a few baby teeth over the past few days. So could this be contributing to his diarrhoea in the crate? His teething? 

I just think that because it's only happening when we leave the house (both times this week), that it is stress related.

We just dont know what to do, because although we would love to spend every day and every second with him, we still have to do things in our lives.

Do you think we should try and crate him in a plastic crate instead? Or should we try a bit of D.A.P diffuser in the room before putting him in?

The thing is, Astro is a mummy's boy and he even cries if we leave the kitchen and he is left on his mat. He follows us around like we are physically attached  haha this emphasises the fact that Vizlsa's are indeed velcro dogs!

So I am afraid he has developed some serious separation anxiety  

Thanks everyone  and sorry for this extremely long post!


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## kenny1991 (Dec 30, 2012)

Can I also add, that I have tried putting t-shirts with my smell in the crate, and I even left my laptop in the bathroom a few weeks back and recorded what happened. Astro actually cried non-stop for 2 hours!

He is always so thirsty when he comes out aswell, so thats why I am sure he is barking the whole time.


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## Ollywebb1 (Feb 6, 2013)

Kenny,

Imo crate training should start from day one. That's not to say you can't turn the tides in your favour but it will certainly be very tough now and you will need to be really patient. It sounds like you have done lots of things you should and having used dap spray myself I think it can be an effective tool.

It could be that teething is adding to your troubles because Astro will no doubt be in pain and looking for comfort when you're not there. This in turn will cause more dribble and will contribute to high stress levels and therefore loose stools. 

You might have just failed to mention it but what you need to do is make the crate his "safe place" hence you will find lots of posts on here stating you should never scold him in the crate or punish him by making him go in the crate. Rather, you scold him and he goes in there of his own volition..... Hey presto you've cracked it.

I would start from scratch....
1) play with him in the crate, stroke him, give treats, hide treats in there (wrapped in the t shirt maybe) at first just for a few moments, before he starts to get stressed. If its big enough get you or gf in with him. Seriously! In the wild dogs sleep on top of each other in dens.

2) when he falls asleep (any time of day) try gently transferring him to the crate. Leave the door open at first. This way every time he wakes up he's in the crate and thinks...... Hmm this place might not be so bad. Then after a few times try shutting the door with him asleep. Trick is to be there when he wakes so you can prevent him getting too stressed.

3) food and drink should always be in the crate..... Radley by 4 months would sit in there when he was hungry sometimes. They start to associate crate with good things.

4) slowly start enticing him into the crate and leaving him in there with the door closed while you are home. I'm talking seconds to minutes to start with. Lots of praise for calm behaviour. Gradually increase time. Try not to open door when pup is crying or you reinforce that him crying gets him attention and out of the crate.

5) slowly leave him in the crate when you're not home. Again, only for a few minutes to start with.

Start off slowly and gradually increase the time. This will take several months. But if you really want him crated then I see no other way. You simply can't go from sleeping with him in bed and being with him all day to suddenly locking him away in a crate for 2 hours and expect him to be ok.

There are lots of other posts on here ref crate training so have a look and combine the best ideas for you and Astro. There will be no quick fix I'm afraid.


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## kenny1991 (Dec 30, 2012)

Thanks for that great reply  Has anyone else got any pointers or ideas?


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## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

Doggy daycare? Or dog walker?
Are you in the Uk?


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Please keep me posted on how this works for you. I'd really be interested to see, honestly. I have a totally different approach, and would love to hear how this all works for you. 

And almost all of the dogs I've fostered, had to be crate trained, so I'd love to hear about another technique.


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## vizslababy (Jan 21, 2013)

Oh boy. I am sorry you are going through this and to be honest, my worry is that this will become too hard after a while. Our pup Shiloh has separation anxiety too- ie: she loses it if we go out in the yard, bathroom, garage, without her. She is RIGHT BY OUR side at all times, and I mean she actually will lean her whole little body into our legs as we go about the house. its challenging when you are trying to swiffer the loads and loads of hair she is also losing right now  . However, when we go out, we put her in her crate and she knows now (she will be 5 months this week) that when we go "go to bed" we mean her crate and we go and come back for her everytime. She used to cry lots the first few weeks, but not long and she didn't drool or make a mess of her crate. it concerns me that Astro is not just busting out of his crate when you come home, showering you with a milllion kisses and just carrying on? I am sorry I dont have any ideas. You are right, he needs to learn to be on his own. It helps us that there are four of us and my two kids are older and love to spend time with the pup. She is always with somebody being cuddled and loved, which is what she wants as she is a huge suck. the only idea I have is maybe get a plastic crate to reduce the damage she causes to her snout and paws, add a ticking clock-sounds like a heart- and the biggest thing for me would be to act normal as you put her in the crate and when you come back. we got this advise with Shiloh and it has worked. When you leave just say "in your bed", watch your entonation, if they detect nervousness from you they will get nervous too. They get all their cues from your voice, your body language and if you are acting like you are apprehensive, they will know. When you come back, same thing, just happy to see him but not too much fuss. Save the fuss for later when he has calmed down a bit from his upset. 
I hope that makes a bit of sense. Sorry for the long ramble


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## stryker (Dec 9, 2012)

Your pup is smart so smart that the tail is wagging the dog. If you got what you wanted by just crying you would cry a lot also. Get a small radio put it on and let him get use to being by himself. Crating him is a fact of life it is for your safety and his safety when you cant be there. You don't want him getting hurt and you don't want him to eat the couch. You can always give him half a benadryl to calm him till he is OK being left alone


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## kenny1991 (Dec 30, 2012)

Yeah thanks for all the help guys.. He is just so attached to us, and yeah its really sad and it makes us really sad.

But I do want to stress, its not like this week, we have just thrown him in the crate for the first time. Eventhough we aborted the night crating in week 1, we have been putting him in and out of the crate during the day for the past 6 weeks... and we were hoping it would of gotten better for him, but it seems to be its getting worse with the running poo's now a common thing for when we come home.

And he is just so distressed looking when we get home and he jumps all over us and we try and ignore him and he wee's everywhere because he gets so excited. So yeah its a hard one..

What does everyone think about giving him some benadryl? And I am thinking ill try the DAP diffuser as well..

And we are going to start putting him in the crate when we are home, ie, feed him in there (with door open) and lay in there with him and my gf is actually sleeping in there with him now as we speak.. But he is still crying (even with her in there)...

So yeah its a hard one. I dont know what to do


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## Watson (Sep 17, 2012)

Everyone's Vizsla/dog is attached to them, but part of being a good dog owner is to teach him to feel secure without you. 
Ollywebb1's advice is spot on.

Your puppy is still young, so with a bit of work you can turn things around.

Here is a write up given out by Michel Berner of Mira Vizslas about Crate Training:

*Crate Training Help*

_Why do you want to crate?_
- Makes elimination predictable
- Safe place for the pup
- Prevents mistakes and establishes good habits from the onset
- Dogs are highly social animals and therefore require adequate preparation for spending some of their time in social isolation and solitary confinement

_Common mistakes in crate training:_
- Isolate the crate
- Never put them in for no reason
- Only put them in for long alone times
- Spend the first weekend with them every second of the day and night, then leave for work on Monday and stick them in the crate for 4 hours
- Let dog out when screaming
- Before you teach them the house rules, you let them have full run of the house

_What you want to do:_
- Put them in the crate for no reason
- Move the crate around with you
- Feed every kibble they eat in the crate
- Teach them how to be alone in the crate when you are home
- Can try feeding right before bed if stopping early isn’t working

_A few things you need to know:_
- Dogs don’t develop full bladder control until they are about 5 months of age
- General rule of thumb; When sleeping, puppies can hold their bladder for their age in months plus one.
(e.g. a 3 month old puppy can be expected to hold it for 4 hours)
- Puppies are genetically programmed to cry when isolated.
- *The more confined your puppy is the first few weeks at home, the more freedom they will enjoy as an adult for the rest of their life!*

I would look at the mistakes listed above, and see which ones you've made. From your initial post, it looks like you've made a couple. Start over again with the basics of things you "want to do." 

I think the crate in the bathroom is a bad idea. We leave Watson's wherever he can see the door and a good view of the house. You also have to live with the screaming while he's in there. It really does diminish if you ignore it and show NO emotion while he's doing it. Only let him out when he's quiet/settled.

If you take the steps listed above and by Ollywebb1, re-introducing the crate to him should go a lot smoother.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I crated trained all my Vs from day one.
If they were not under a watchful eye, they were in the crate. When they would get tired, I would put them in the crate. Then walk away. No sleeping in the bed at night until crate trained. If they barked at the top of their lungs, I went about my business. Only getting them out when quite. I did have to get up during the night and take them out to potty, but it was straight back to the crate.
Their crates are where they can see whats going on in the house. It wasn't long before they would go to their crates on their own. They still do to this day. 

What you are describing is not abnormal for a V puppy that has gotten to spend every moment with its owners.


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## kenny1991 (Dec 30, 2012)

Hey guys, thank you so much for all the replies.. I feel bad for the Astro, because it is really our fault for not doing it properly from day 1. We did try with the night crating but it just didn't work out and I think that then led to the day time problems..

So basically, I wrote my first post on friday (and we had the two poo'ing in the crate problems). So over the weekend, we continually fed him in the crate and also moved him into it when he was asleep, so he could wake up from his nap in there. My girlfriend also slept with him inside the crate (door shut) a few times over the weekend too.

We both had our commitments this morning, so I firstly took him for a walk and then put him in the crate. And tried to be as normal as possible. I just used a 'crate', 'i'll be back later astro'. 

And I just got home 2 hours later and I am really happy to say that he did not poo in the crate this time. He also didn't pull the sheet from over the outside to the inside of the crate like he usually does.

I also wanted to see how he was when we left, so I left my computer on video recording in the bathroom. When we initially left, he started with the whimpering, and this continued for about 30 mins, and then he fell asleep for about 10 mins, and he then woke up and barked and barked and barked until we got home..

So eventhough he didn't poo, he still barked and he was really thirsty when we got home (because he also knocked over his water bowel).

I have also bought a DAP diffuser (should arrive in the mail today). So this might help him with the anxiety/separation problems. I also did not give him a denture bone before we left (this may have been what was causing him to poo). 

All I gave him in the crate was, his blanket, water bowel, and toys.

For this week, we will continue to try and get him more associated with the crate, but I dont think its the 'crate' that is the problem. Because he will freely walk in and out during the day, its the fact that he is not with my girlfriend and I. He misses being part of the pack..

So yeah  hopefully we can slowly get there with him! and thanks for the help guys, will keep you all updated!

Also, I am thinking of buying a proper cover for the crate like this one:

http://compare.ebay.com.au/like/370259223944?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes

Has anyone had any success with them? Although he didn't pull through the sheet over the outside today, he always usually does, so I am thinking if its properly stuck on and secure, he wont be able to do it properly. Plus, a proper cover might make it more like a den for him?


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## Angie NG (Jun 6, 2012)

Hi kenny1991 and welcome to the forum. It sounds like you have turned a little corner over the weekend with the crate 
We have Bella who is 1 in a few days, her crate is in the kitchen and she only goes in it while we are all out of the house. I use to crate her at night until she was 7/8 months old, she now sleeps in her bed or at the bottom of ours.
Maybe an idea to put some music on for your pup, Bella loves classical . I also use to put her in her crate and leave the house for 5-10 minutes and then go back home. It helped her realise I was coming back, sounds a crazy idea but its worked. I can now say bed to her and she goes straight into her crate, she goes in there for some quiet time to. Having 2 children sometimes she wants to have some peace and quiet so goes in to chill out. Don't blame her either  Wish I had one myself at times :


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## Főnix (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm glad things are getting better for you. It sounds like a lot of progress for such a short time .

One little thing our breeder suggested was getting a water pail instead of a bowl, then you can hang it from the side of the crate and they can't tip it over. Something like this: http://www.petedge.com/product/ProSelect-Flat-Sided-Stainless-Steel-Pails/43158.uts. It's worked well for us.

If he keeps having trouble you could try moving your crate out of the bathroom, he might feel isolated in there (hard if he's making a mess in it, I know). I remember a few forum members saying that when the crate is in a place where the puppy can see what's going on (or that nothing is going on without them), it helped. Ours is in a corner of the living room right now.

Good luck!


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## yheywood (Feb 20, 2013)

Hi everyone - I am Kenny's girlfriend so I thought I would post on here also.

We have discussed the idea of a different water option and I think the stainless steel pail is a really good idea! We might look further into that. We worried that if we got a plastic one that attached to the side of the crate, that he would just chew on it. How do you attach the stainless steel pail?


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## Főnix (Feb 3, 2013)

Something like a double ended clip or a carabiner works great.


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## kenny1991 (Dec 30, 2012)

Im thinking of getting one of these ones

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ONE-STAI...ters&hash=item2eb4fd6714&_uhb=1#ht_500wt_1315

but still I'm worried that he will just knock it over this time with his head? how can we prevent this?

And where can I buy nice metal crate covers other than ebay?


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## Főnix (Feb 3, 2013)

Maybe if you wire it to the crate? Not sure.


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## Nelly (Feb 7, 2013)

Hello guys, we went through the exact same thing from day one and in all honesty we're still working on day time (at 6 months) every dog is different. 

We did all of the things ollyweb suggested, that was a brilliant and comprehensive reply.

Only difference is we never let her in the bed and bought some earplugs and wine for ourselves and our neighbours!

We found the DAP diffuser didn't make much difference but I know that some people have had success with it. 

We had a pen attached to the crate for a while where she could play and where water could go without being rumbled about in the crate - we eliminated the pen and hey presto. 

I fed her in the crate for a while, cuddled and played in there etc. and never used it for punishment but as I say it took a while even for night time.

Best of luck guys you'll get there. For days when we are both out for a while we use a lovely daycare lady who only takes a few dogs at a time, they get play, big long walks and little training sessions, I couldn't be happier with that set-up as she has had fun in her day without us and it has also helped her to be a little more independent.


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