# Recall is zero



## Angie NG (Jun 6, 2012)

Hi everyone, 

Hope your all well and having fun with your v's. A bit of advice is needed again 
Bella is coming up to 9 months old, she seems to be going through an adolescent stage at the moment but is much worse off leash and when birds are flying round. Today is the second time it's happened, we go walking and I shout her to come back a few times for recall and she does so, not that she is ever far from me anyway. Today she saw some birds fly up into the trees in the woods and fly off again, Bella within a second or two had gone and was chasing them. She was gone and out of sight for a few minutes while I shouted and whistled her and went into a panic because she was no where to be seen. The first time she did this my husband was there and my 2 boys, my eldest was so upset because he thought we had lost Bella for good, bless him. 
I no this is her instinct kicking in and it's normal behaviour but its the not listening and how far would she actually go before she comes back that I have a problem with. 
I feel we have come so far with her yet go into panic mode with something so natural to her, I'm just worried for her safety as I think she gets that distracted by the birds that she would follow them on onto a road without a thought 
Any thoughts would be great


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

There is plenty of posts/debates on this problem. Just do a search on recall. When mine start doing this its a sign to me to start ecollar conditioning, but others work through it in different ways.


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## Angie NG (Jun 6, 2012)

Thank you TexasRed, since writing the thread I have searched about recall problems and didn't realise there are so many of us going through the same problem. It seems an e-collar is the answer, never thought I would go down this road but Bella's safety is paramount as her distraction towards the birds is just crazy. She will chase them till they are out of her sight :-\


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: Re: Recall is zero*



Angie said:


> Thank you TexasRed, since writing the thread I have searched about recall problems and didn't realise there are so many of us going through the same problem. It seems an e-collar is the answer, never thought I would go down this road but Bella's safety is paramount as her distraction towards the birds is just crazy. She will chase them till they are out of her sight :-\


No....an E-collar is just one answer, not the answer. 
Training, with repetition and consistency is another answer. 

I hate hearing people reaching immediately for an E-collar. Why not put some time and effort in and achieve it another way? Does everybody in this **** world need everything done yesterday?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

*Re: Re: Recall is zero*



Ozkar said:


> Angie said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you TexasRed, since writing the thread I have searched about recall problems and didn't realise there are so many of us going through the same problem. It seems an e-collar is the answer, never thought I would go down this road but Bella's safety is paramount as her distraction towards the birds is just crazy. She will chase them till they are out of her sight :-\
> ...


Yes :-*


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

I steadied Ruby with a long line and my hens in the back garden, cracked it within 15 minutes to the point where she would sit at one end of the garden and have to walk through the birds to come to me 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oZTAtvhAmU


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## Angie NG (Jun 6, 2012)

I do put alot of time and effort into training Bella Ozkar, I did say it SEEMS to be an answer on reading the search engine. The only reason I would get an e collar is for safety. We live near 2 very busy roads and at the moment Bella's recall is dreadful when she is distracted by birds.
If I do decide to get an e collar it will be because I don't want my lovely Girl run over not because I want everything done yesterday. 
Thanku Harrigab, will have a look on your link now


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Ecollar conditioning is worth it because the dog will earn it's freedom in 6 months, if done properly. Because if done properly there will be NO need to stim or beep .... in a year recall will be rock solid.... Dog can go naked everywhere (no collar, that is). 

Whistle or hand signals, only, if you want. 

There is something magical about hand signals. Silent commands are so cool.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: Re: Recall is zero*



datacan said:


> Ecollar conditioning is worth it because the dog will earn it's freedom in 6 months, if done properly. Because if done properly there will be NO need to stim or beep .... in a year recall will be rock solid.... Dog can go naked everywhere (no collar, that is).
> 
> Whistle or hand signals, only, if you want.
> 
> There is something magical about hand signals. Silent commands are so cool.


I agree, hand signals are great. Mine respond to hand signals as well. Had to learn them to be successful hunting Deer. Mine have solid recall too. But I have never had an e-collar on them.... Ever......... 

Once again I will say it.... An e-collar is just one method. Not the be all and end all of methods and no more or less effective than alternative methods. 

It is easily achieved using conventional methods with nothing more than repetition and consistency.


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## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

If you do the time served of these Great Dogs hand commands and the whistle is the need 

and anyone wants a custom shock collar Pre fit

Hit me up

I will aid in that as well

community service is Rudy

You may not like the operator ;D


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Oz, 

I really like your way of not forcing anything on the dog. In truth, while I preach "harsh" methods, have hardly applied any pressure to Sammy or Lisa. Well, Sammy did get a little but nowhere near as I much as I was taught. 

OK...
The problem with reward based training, the **** reward is ALWAYS late. Dog doesn't understand what the heck he did to earn it. 
Next time, if he wants candy, he will come when he feels like having candy. 
He will come but have to wait unit he is thoroughly, I mean thoroughly finished. It's a Vizsla, after all. I have never met a dog that has to analyze things this thoroughly . 

In reality, I put distance between me and the dog, way too soon. And the limitation of praise based training becomes apparent. This is also where marker based training really shines. 

That's the key to understanding ecollars. The marker is delivered by means if the ecollar. *The marker can be a beep and the electrodes can be removed from the receiver*. That way, who can complain?

But there is more... If the electrodes stay in the receiver,
the ecollar allows for a time warp experience,
allowing a clearer communication line sooner... But NOT before the dog is able to comprehend what the reward really is (stim off). 

The dog is in charge. Pressure comes off the moment the dog thinks about turning (this is the first reward) come here and get your treat (is the second reward, if you want). This way, the dog clearly understands his actions are causing the pressure to come off. All this without any emotional attachment. 

Biggest problem in dog training is that we impart our emotions along with commands. The dog is a master at reading our emotions and it responds to them. And so it responds only when we yell because that's what he was taught. We really mean things when we are angry. 

If we could detach our emotions completely when training dogs, then we wouldn't need Herm Sprenger pinch collars and Tritronics ecollars. 

Ecollar technology has evolved into the scientific realm. Tests on skin conductivity, tests on stimulation patterns and intensity, the distance between electrodes have been researched at university levels. 
Gone are the days when the two electrodes were almost 180 degrees apart. 
In the end, the skin surface stimulation the dog receives is no different than the muscle stimulation we receive at the chiropractor. 
The difference is one feels like a pinch (ouch) because of the point contacts and the other contracts muscles because of the wider area skin contacts. 

Compared to how they used to beak working dogs in the past, this is progress and humane.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Data, stop defending yourself........you're starting to sound guilty........ 

I have no problem with anyone using an e-collar as long as it's not on my dogs. I think I would have a dog put to sleep if I needed to use an e-collar. That is to say, that if the dog where that bad, then it would be the only option. In other words, I strongly believe I can achieve whatever I need to without one. So can loads of people. Humans have trained dogs for eons. I bet the first gun hunters never had an electronic device and I bet there dogs united brilliantly. 

And before you start on about harsh methods used by past generations, I think you will find that even back then, the good owners and trainers never needed them. After all the Vizsla hasn't really changed a lot, they've always been soft on the ears.

I am of the opinion that it is just a time saving device. I am happy to take it at the dogs pace. It's worked not only on Vizslas and a GSP, but also on 5 cocker spaniels, a rotty, a Corgi Labrador cross, a golden retriever, a bull terrier and more kelpies, heelers and border collies. 


What's the bet that even Ken could achieve what's needed without an e-collar. It's just a time saver. A time saver I won't use nor advocate. 

I will always offer alternative thoughts when they are suggested, as I believe it's a better way....  not the only way though.....


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## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

The lady doth protest too much me thinks!


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## Angie NG (Jun 6, 2012)

Thank you for your comments everyone  I realise this subject is like a minefield and views are different on e collars, if I did get one it would be as a last resort. 
Hopefully Bella will start her gundog training on Sunday and the course involves recall so with some different ideas from the trainer it will improve, she was suppose to start it in October but due to her accident and having surgery on her leg she has been unable to start it until now. I think this is the reason in all honesty I am letting my emotions get the better of me, I am worried she is going to get hurt again. I have a whistle and treats while walking and she responds to both, give her a distraction and neither are of any use. Most of the time if I see it first I can distract her back to me, but flying birds I'm afraid are beating me :-\
I am saying hopefully she will start her training on sunday but 
this morning I found signs of what could be her season. I will have to keep an eye on her for now


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

We use new and modern things in our everyday life and I don't see why dog training should be any different. Just because someone doesn't understand something does not make it evil.
I won't own a high powered hunting dog that is not collar conditioned. I want my dogs in the field where they belong, not tied to me.
Each person must decide their own path. Mine is behind red dogs hunting the fields.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

There is an app for that... Can't wait for the day I can page my dog over the phone. 


OZ, 
depends what we want to achieve... in pet mode we can take our sweet time and be happy with what we get... in high power mode we better rev that engine high so as to squeeze every bit of performance out of that high performance dog, ASAP. 

The breed will thank you for it. Like I said the problem is distance... close by the dog will perform brilliantly, every time... add some distance 40-60 yards and things fall apart pretty quickly.

If you found the Holy Grail of reliable distance training, please share, I would really like to know as well so I can ditch technology and get back to what matters 

\


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

OK Data, I'll give up my secret to distance training. Repetition and consistency!


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

Ozkar said:


> OK Data, I'll give up my secret to distance training. _*Repetition and consistency!*_


deviating slightly from thread but the other week there was a handler on our shoot on picker -up duties, we had a shot bird that winged it the turned into a runner, his dog (black lab) marked it, went for the pick up, and after 3 fields, which to my guesstimate was close to half a mile, picked up the runner and retrieved it. Back at the hut we were singing the praises of dog and handler ( at this time he was actually commenting on what a cracking looking beautiful dog Rubes is), so I cheekily asked, "any chance of you training Rubes to do what you do with your Lab?",,,his reply was, "She's bonded to you, so I'd suggest you do what I do, lots of (yep you've guessed it) time, repetition and above all consistency".....that's my mantra for close season


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Don't know why people think it doesn't take time and consistency even when using a ecollar. You don't just put the collar on and the dog is magically trained. 

My BIL has always trained his bird dogs without ecollar and has been doing it for 40 years. I have listened to plenty of sermons on not needing those **** collars.
Well guess what, with a lot of the prairie and farm lands turning into shopping malls and housing he can't run her.
Having 200- 300 acres is to small and she could get in the road. After seeing her miss so many hunts he has decided its time to start collar training.
I guess you can teach an old human new tricks.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

harrigab said:


> so I cheekily asked, "any chance of you training Rubes to do what you do with your Lab?",,,his reply was, "She's bonded to you, so I'd suggest you do what I do, lots of (yep you've guessed it) time, repetition and above all consistency".....that's my mantra for close season


Harri, your new buddy with the amazing black lab sort of threw the phone book at you. Kind if like I am busy, don't have the time, desire or motivation and if you want, find someone else. 
Kind of like Ozkar with me .... "I got my way, you've got yours" 

In fact, most serious trainers will prefer to take the dog in for a period of time. For the dog, it's like summer vacation camp 
Those who say the owner is the best coach, don't really want to bother.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: Re: Recall is zero*



datacan said:


> harrigab said:
> 
> 
> > so I cheekily asked, "any chance of you training Rubes to do what you do with your Lab?",,,his reply was, "She's bonded to you, so I'd suggest you do what I do, lots of (yep you've guessed it) time, repetition and above all consistency".....that's my mantra for close season
> ...


Bloody **** Data........ I'm gobsmacked.......... This is like the 3rd time in as many days that I've agreed with you................ I might be coming down with something mate?...........


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Is it the dog or the forum that attracts smart people?

If it's the dog, then I must be getting a little smarter every day.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

There is no quick fix - there are not 2 pups that are the same - do the research and see what fits your pup the best - I love trainers - at the end of the day the mutt will be living with YOU ! - 2 things that always work - TIME & COMMITMENT - may not end up with what you want ! - but it will be close - there will always be 2 parts to the equation - you and the pup - and a million Variables !


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Har - as Ruby has trained YOU - Long guns + hunting gear = fun - PIKE goes from lap mutt to hunting pup as soon as he sees or scents either - 10 minutes to the pond or 18 hours to a pheasant out west ? THIS IS NOT training - just what they were bred 4 !!!!


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