# Retrieving



## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Hey guys, I was hoping to pick some brains on getting our V to fetch.
We had a nice long training session today and Mischa was a star Pointer as usual.

The trouble was her retrieving. The real trouble was her complete lack of it! 
Last summer she would retrieve a frozen dead bird out of the water, and bring it back real close to me. I though it was great, and figured today would be much of the same. 
Nope. She brought a couple frozen birds to the shore, but never out of the water, and never to any of us.
After that, our trainer decided to simplify with some frozen birds on land. Nothing! She'd run up, take a quick sniff, and was off to find some live birds.

After that the trainer decided to plant some more live birds, and since Mischa was good on blank shotgun primers, he pulled out his 20 Ga and we set 2 more birds out for her. She pointed each of them quickly, and held for over a minute before he flushed. The trainer fired after he flushed and once the bird hit the ground, I would release Mischa, and she would Point the dead bird instead of picking it up.

She is fine with a gun over her(huge win of the day), and is as curious of birds as ever....She just doesn't care about bringing them to us. All she wants is to find the next one.

I'd rather not go the Force-Fetch route, but am willing to if necessary. 
I got my hunting/gun licence this year, even bought a Rem 870, and have been practicing busting clays so that I don't disappoint my dog too much by missing everything she points! So, I'm all-in on hunting over my girl. It would be nice if she brought our dinner back for us! 

Our 2 Trainer's (husband/wife) aren't too worried about it, but I wanted to ask what you all thought the next step should or even could be. 

On a more positive note, We did get to bring home a fresh Chukar and will be BBQing it up! My g/f and I may share a bite with Mischa, but we also may not since we had to pick the darn things up for her all day...  

It is great to know that she's finally gun-broken. It was my biggest worry. The retrieving is secondary, but still important.

TIA for any advice.
-Dennis


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Dennis,
Great training session and by this fall you'll be ready for some pheasant on the BBQ. ;D

Trust your trainer. You have a Hungarian Pointer. 

You'll be fine. The retrieve is not all that natural to the Vizsla. It has to be learned. A bird to hand is an advanced skill set. 

I'd take the wins and keep working it. Bailey and I are off to a training session tomorrow morning. He is almost 4 years old. He didn't have a reliable retrieve until just a short time ago.

The wonderful and at the same time frustrating thing about owning and training these great dogs is that they are NOT machines. They have to WANT to do something. The hunting team of you and your dog takes many hours of work together.

Have fun. That's what it is all about.

RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Great advice RBD.
On force fetch, I wouldn't recommend you do that till your dog has at least a season or two on birds. I would keep working on the basic hunting skills for now. Some vizslas have more retrieving drive than others. I would rather play retrieving games with young ones than put them under that amount pressure. I don't know your dog and I'm by no means a pro. I have just been told by a few people that hunt v's, that if you try it to soon they will shut down.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that she may be a little flat to the retrieve, or has possibly been a little over trained to the search. In training it's very easy to focus too much on the search component and the dog can erroneously believe that it's more important to get to the next bird, than finish on the first bird. 

I can't see what you are seeing, but if she were mine the days of planted birds would be over, as would frozen dead birds. She may know the "current game" too well, and it's time to up the challenge. 
Get your birds out early on a nice dry morning, no dew. Get good strong flyers and release them in the air. Don't walk around and plant them. Let them fly where they will and make their own foot scent. Give it about an hour and then bring her into the birds. Bring her in on a quarter from upwind if you can, so that she hits the scent from not too far off. If she comes in from down wind she may not yet be disciplined enough to not run straight through them.
Don't shoot, don't talk. Let her just hit the birds and see what she does. Make it real, and see how she handles it.
I really think the "can of corn, softball", type training is behind her now. She may be more ready to go than you realize.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

First, congrats on your accomplishments 8)

I got this from *Aimless1*, last year, on a post discussing a very young gun-shy dog (I managed to derail that post from guns to forced fetch), perhaps it may be of some assistance:

"I'm not a fan of force breaking to retrieve. If you're able to find an affordable copy of "Common Sense Grouse and Woodcock Dog Training" by Roy Strickland, do your self a favor and buy it. Try seeking out information about natural retrieving. Nice link http://www.superiorpointers.com/retrieving.html. If you don't know the founder of the famous Elhew line of pointers was Robert Wehle who wrote "Wing & Shot". You probably noticed that Elhew is Wehle spelled backwards."


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

It's hard not to see her as a machine sometimes because she gets so intense on birds and has shown such promise that I expect the full package, or at least signs of it each time we're out. 

I am a little disappointed from yesterday, but still very proud of her accomplishments. Her intensity is so high... Watching her vibrate on-point always puts a smile of pride and admiration on our faces! 8)

I'll put the force-fetch in the back of mind for a couple years and see how she comes along. We have a great place to train her and I do have tons of confidence in them. I am glad I asked you all for advice too, because it puts my head back where it should be. Let her learn, not force her to... We started this training for fun, and it should stay that way.
Right now, worst case scenario is that I have to follow her to the downed bird and pick it up off the ground. Not bad for a city dog I suppose. 


Gunnr, you're spot on with the over-trained search. We'll toss sticks into rivers, bushes, etc... but let her get away with leaving it there or running with it, and just praise when she brings it back. The trouble is that she'll fetch all night inside our home, but only a few times outside before she loses interest in a ball, stick, and now dead bird.
How do I play and train her retrieving when she has little to no interest in the game when outdoors?

I'll try to find a copy of that book datacan. I think Grouse will be the bird we find most here, so I'm sure it'll be good info for me.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

This is how they train them in Hungary, it's a beginning, later they graduate the dog to birds and things.

The dummy is filled with yummy tasty treats, the dog cannot open without handler's assistance. 
They WHOA the dog, step in front a few steps and throw the dummy into the field. Handler goes back to the dog and releases it to search for he dummy. When the dog finds the dummy, it MUST bring it back, otherwise it cannot get to the treats inside the dummy.

If you are thinking of throwing stick maybe giving this a try may work as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzPsTfM9d0w&feature=player_detailpage#t=44s The whole video is too basic so I cut to the interesting part. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9KwKxC_mCs&feature=player_detailpage#t=46s *Where can I find a dummy like this in Canada?*

What is interesting is that they train them to hunt and as therapy dogs for children with disabilities


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Ive even put a slit in a tennis ball on filled it with treats when they are puppies. I use it in the hall first, then other places once they figure out they need me to get the treats out.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

Mischa

Sometimes you just have to let it come together for them. Time will tell.

Look at the things you do know with absolute certainty;
1.) She can search and find game.
2.) She points, and holds her point.
3.) She sounds pretty much broken to wing and shot.
4.) She is marking the drop
5.) She will retrieve objects and birds.
6.) She will retrieve to hand.
She is a little confused as to how important #'s 4 and 5 are at this point. But! She knows to retrieve and to bring to hand. No amount of continued retrieve training is going to change this. She's already got it. It's now just a matter of the entire picture coming together in her mind.
I would put a twenty spot on her to pass a force retrieve session with flying colors and you'd still be at the same point with her.
She is used to a field of planted birds at this point, so she always wins, and can be a nut bag. As she gets older she will "slow down" a bit, and maturity will kick in. She'll stop running so much and realize that it's unproductive, and "start to hunt", and not "play the game".

If you never plan to trial her, and she's going to be your personal hunting dog, there is no way I would jeopardize the first 4 things from the list for the last two. You may not always have that "Field and Stream" experience, but your dog is going to get you into the birds. Let her grow up a bit. 

One of my prior Vizsla's, Silkcut, would retrieve any object about 10 times, land or water, and then quit. Just wouldn't even pay attention after that. On real birds though it was a different story. He never let one go, and he always, returned them. Sometimes you have to meet them 1/2way and accept their quirks, even though it's driving you crazy.


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