# teaching to sit?



## mikesf (Nov 5, 2012)

Maci is 11 months old and taking good to the yard and field training. She is also our house dog who gets special tummy rub training from my wife. My wife thinks I should teach her to sit but I have heard that it is tabo to teach a pointer to sit. Those that hunt their V and has the dog as house pet what have you heard/experienced? thanks in advance.
Mike


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

I was told (RBD ) pointers stand while retrievers sit. 

But, in Hungary Vs sit regardless.


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## Reeka The Vizsla (Jul 10, 2013)

Hey Mike,

My trainer always said never teach a pointer to sit (he teaches us what to do and we go home and refine her current training). He says sometimes they could sit when they are at point. But, teaching them to lay down is a good alternative because they will never lay down on a point. I taught my current dog (Reeka) to lay down and it works well... I think it should be a good alternative for your wife so you reach a median lol


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,8377.msg64194.html#msg64194

MikeSF, the above thread went into this discussion.

A regal Hungarian Pointer's stance is standing motionless at your left knee when at a heal position. 

Labs and the other retrievers sit in a cold boat, next to their hunter, waiting for the ducks to be taken down and then to jump into action. Upland bird dogs, of which the Vizsla is one of the best, are to be out front hunting and then slamming to a point to wait for the gunner to take the bird.

What point is "sit" to a hunting upland bird dog? ???

I teach "down" when I want to give them a treat, they have to go into a laying position *with their hips flipped * to the side. This serves the same "purpose" as sit and is even more impressive if you want to show that your dog is trained. 

Good luck with your training. I like your questions.

RBD


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## Darcy1311 (May 27, 2012)

Darcy will sit on command either by my side or at a distance, she will sit until told to do otherwise...but I cannot for the life of my to get her to lie down on command.. :-[ :-[..any tips on helping with this would be greatly appreciated


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Down ;D


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Perhaps, lie down beside your dog...


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## lonestar (Jun 2, 2013)

Why can't a Vizsla sit? 

There are times when it's good to have a V sit on command. There are times when you do not want them to do this. If you've done good training...based on understanding the dog's nature, they really do know the difference btwn those times. A Vizsla should be taught as much as possible and also taught it in a way that it clearly knows when it's OK and not OK. Teach your V to sit. And stay. And lie down. And to "Stop" *Whatever*. And lo and behold, not only will they do this only when you instruct them, they will be good canine citizens, too. 

The best way to teach V to sit is to have a piece of treat..I like cheese for this and so do they...and hold it above their heads so they have to tilt back to see it..so far back that they have to sit. As they go thru that motion, say "Sit". When they do, give them the cheese and say "Good sit, good boy!" Repeat.


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## hobbsy1010 (Jun 4, 2011)

What!!!!!



datacan said:


> Lie down beside her...


Please try to explain!?!?


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

hobbsy1010 said:


> What!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oops... I meant Rob, lie down beside Darcy and Darcy will most likely lie down 
Other than that, Rob has a training collar for Darcy. I don't think he needs help using it, what with all those Shepherd dogs at the office.


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## Darcy1311 (May 27, 2012)

datacan said:


> hobbsy1010 said:
> 
> 
> > What!!!!!
> ...


 Ah yes Datacan ...my training collar that YOU just wont let lay...I am not a Prison dog handler  I work in the Segregation Unit where we use all sorts of control methods...but never a check chain ;D


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

lonestar said:


> Why can't a Vizsla sit?
> 
> There are times when it's good to have a V sit on command. There are times when you do not want them to do this. If you've done good training...based on understanding the dog's nature, they really do know the difference btwn those times. A Vizsla should be taught as much as possible and also taught it in a way that it clearly knows when it's OK and not OK. Teach your V to sit. And stay. And lie down. And to "Stop" *Whatever*. And lo and behold, not only will they do this only when you instruct them, they will be good canine citizens, too.
> 
> The best way to teach V to sit is to have a piece of treat..I like cheese for this and so do they...and hold it above their heads so they have to tilt back to see it..so far back that they have to sit. As they go thru that motion, say "Sit". When they do, give them the cheese and say "Good sit, good boy!" Repeat.


Nothing wrong with teaching a V to sit.
If you plan on showing or quail hunting the dog, just do it later.
The reason is some dogs sit under pressure, if they were taught sit.
Yes it can be fixed, but why put yourself and the dog in that situation.
If you have ever seen a retriever work, you will see them sit if they need more instruction to complete a task.

Many of you know I waterfowl and upland hunt with my dog Cash. He has to be able to sit, or down for as long as I need him to. I just made sure to do the that training after he was steady on birds.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

"My wife thinks I should teach her to sit" - Mike

Go with your wife. ;D 
Women know how to train dogs with heart, men will always train military style, that opens the dog more.. but you need both for proper balance. 

I am actually a little disappointed ppl think sit for treats will ruin the dog's style... I have no idea what the dog will look like in the future... it most certainly will not be what it was in the past, though.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Datacan
Not so many years ago, you would never see a hunting dog being clicker trained. Now more and more people are doing it. They see the advantage of clicker training a pup, even if it will be trained in the more conventional style as it matures. When you get down to it, its all operant training.

Treats have there place until something better (in the dogs eyes) comes along.


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## MCD (May 4, 2013)

My 8 week old puppy had to work on sit this week. I made her sit every time we had to cross a street while on walks. I did this without treats and with lots of praise. without any formal training Dharma was amazing! I started by pushing down on her behind if I had to. It then progressed to asking her to sit and pulling up on the leash. then I had to just say "Dharma sit". "OK" was her release from sit. I am amazed at the fact that we accomplished this in a week. I'm just not completely sure she has it mastered yet. Must keep working on it. "come" is another command we worked on while on a leash this week. I didn't have a fenced in yard while away on vacation at my parents house.


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## Jlaha (Jul 12, 2013)

MCD, that's great! I used treats with Kimber after he mastered, "Wait!" We moved onto sit and he got it quickly. 😃


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## Kevin (Dec 29, 2012)

Nothing wrong In teaching sit. Most of the v's here will not truly hunt and tbh most of the hunt trained v's will live in the house and socialise round children etc. sit should be taught.

My v 9 months and has no issues with pointing etc. I have seen him sit though when he gets confused on commands in obedience training. For me that is good cos its like a signal he's confused n goes for the sit making me know I need to be more clear or change something round to help him understand...

In other words, IMO it's when you pressure dogs to do something quite complicated and they want to please u they will revert back to one of there 1st things taught (the sit) to please you

: D

Ohh! And MCD : u r not walking your pup round on the streets at 8 weeks old r u?? ???


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## huntvizsla (Jun 8, 2013)

I work along the concept that these are not dumb dogs, and they they know the difference between sitting in the house on command and working in the field on birds.

My dogs are all taught to sit from the day I get them. I have found that SOME of them will "sit" in the field but its usually because they are young, and have overrunn a bird, and have stopped as quickly as they could to not flush it. A gentle resetting into a solid, pointing position is all they need. They eventually grow out of it as they gain confidence - *assuming little training pressure is applied. * This seems to be an inherent behaviour - as some of my dogs have never done this, others have a tendancy when young. And, it should be noted its not the type of "sit" that is taught them in the house - its more along the lines of a high-tensile crouch with nose and muscles aquiver - holding their breath and bug eyed due to the intoxicating scent they just ran across and the fear that a single whisker move could flush that bird.

I have had long time vdog trainers say the same thing - and if you were to use a great deal of pressure on the dog when on point I would expect that a dog WOULD sit as a way of offering alternative behaviour when uncertain. In fact, when I think about this a bit more, I HAVE seen this type of sit happen - but only when a dog is really getting pressure (i.e. steadiness training).

Since the act of sitting is inherent in being a dog (in otherwords, no different than the act of walking, laying down or barking) I do not know how anyone would prevent a dog from sitting if they so chose to. 

My opinion only - I am sure others will differ..........


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## MCD (May 4, 2013)

I had no choice this week. I didn't have anywhere else big enough to do anything with her that was safe and would tire her out.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

lonestar said:


> Why can't a Vizsla sit?


 It's not that a Vizsla can't sit, of course they can do that.
The problems come in with the training/discipline of the handler. I taught my first V to sit, and never did it again. Here's why;

Dogs, and V's in particular,put together what I call "pictures in their mind" to learn a task. These are based on verbal and physical cues that are learned by repetition. The classic "Sit" command is usually followed, or sometimes preceded with a "stay" command. In my first V's case it followed the "sit" command. 
What happened was that as his training was progressing to less rote discipline, and more a "contact feel" for hunting and more advanced commands, or sequences of pictures, were introduced, Like "Whoa", "Easy", "In" and of course "Stay", there was confusion. 
When I gave him the "stay" command, while on point, guess what he did? Yep, he sat down. Because he was conditioned to hear "sit" followed by "Stay", in his mind I believe he thought he missed a command, the "Sit", and sat down strictly based on repetition of the rote discipline lessons. the picture was incomplete. A very un- Field and Stream moment.
I never gave him the "sit" command again, and it was a few months, maybe a season, before I could use "Whoa", "Stay", "Easy" and "In" interspersed together with him.
You can teach the "sit" command, just be careful of the mistake I made. Teach it separate and alone from any of the commands you'll use while handling birds.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Among other things they also sit, at least, that is what they've done for hundreds of years. Training errors are not their fault.

Imagine having one dog for pointing another for retrieving and another for sitting around.... They couldn't afford different dogs for different tasks so they trained one dog to do everything. 

While the men are hunting over them, this is what they do with them at home...http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mA1Lp6Vf4s8&desktop_uri=/watch?v=mA1Lp6Vf4s8
The same dog that hunts in the field, plays at home also serves as therapy dog. Botond & Huba are famous dogs, made the papers.. In fact, they are rather unique.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Most obedience and retriever trainers pull up on the dogs collars to teach/enforce sit/stay. We as pointer trainers pull up to teach and enforce stand. Then use that training later in the bird field to steady a dog on birds.
You have a young dog on point that is mesmerized by the smell of the bird. He moves a foot to creep and you pull up on the collar. His reaction maybe to sit low on the ground. Why, because he is confused in what your asking him to do. Next you have a week or two of using the suitcase method to steady him. 
Yes its just a set back, but one that could have been avoided. I know a lot of bird dog purest that would never ever teach one of their dogs sit. They think I'm crazy for letting a pointer hunt anything other than upland birds.
So I would never say you can't teach sit early. Its just you may not want to.


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## huntvizsla (Jun 8, 2013)

I haven't seen this - but it could be due to how I teach sit - treat in a fisted hand that I move close to, and over their head - pups natural reaction is to sit so they can tilt their head back and keep sight of the fist. A few repetitions and Voila they got it. Pair that with voice command and they are ready for voice only command.

Pulling up on the collar - for my dogs - is associated with heeling. A sharp, quick tug up, brisk step forward with left leg, and voice command Heel. Sit does not even come into the equation at that point. 

Possibly why its not been a problem from my experience.


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