# recall



## mutley66 (Oct 25, 2014)

Hi V is 1 year old and we had her to a pro trainer for 1 month in Nov - Dec last year. it was residential and she came away with all the basic skils as well as not to chase any animals (we live rural and had been worried of the consequences if she chased down any livestock). The training had went better than expected, (she simply looks at but ignores livestock) and her character had not changed. We had been able to take her off lead and know she recals immediatley, she has always remained 'near' to us when off her lead and we have never had a problem with her. 
Until last week... i took her to a normal field, very large, after 10 mins she noticed birds flying low to the ground and started to chase them, she got further and further away and ignored my recalls, because she went out of sight across the field i had to chase ofter her, for a minute i honestly thought i was going to lose her completely and felt physically sick and shocked. eventually she gave up chasing the birds, saw and heard me and ran back to me and lay at my feet totally shattered. It was hard as i was annoyed but i praised her for returning. I also had an e-collar on her, just as a back up, and i did triger this twice but on both times she ignored it and continued chasing the birds. I know they are 'bird dogs' but previously we always walk in woods and she shows no interest in game birds etc. I am still in shock as it was a horrible experience thinking you are going to lose your beloved V and i have never seen her like that before. Previously I was very comfortable with her off her lead as i thought she would always recall, but this has made we very catuious and i dont want to restrict her. Is this a one-off adrenalin rush ?? I really dont like having the e-collar but it was suppose to be a back up if needed but she ignored it??


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

She either ignored it because she was out of range, or she takes a slightly higher number when she's amped up on chase. Not unusual to have to bump up the number when they are on chase, just remember to turn it back down.
Also make sure the collar is fully charged, and working correctly.
If you continue to have the problem, you might want to revisit the trainer.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

And make sure her e-collar is on tight enough. Usually when Dex doesn't respond at all to the e-collar it's because I don't have it on the right notch. Although it's not totally uncommon for him just to ignore the collar if he's really amped up. 

The trainer did already condition her to the e-collar, right?


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## mutley66 (Oct 25, 2014)

Hi,the trainer did condition her to the e-collar and since I have very rarely used it. (Maybe once or twice in 4 months). As she was some distance away I did turn up the dial past her normal setting but it got no response. I guess she couldn't have ignored this so maybe it was out of range or not charged fully (but all lights were green) or the collar was not tight enough? I can deal with a tech problem and lesson learnt from this but very shocked she behaved like this. I remember when she was a young pup she had the run of a secure paddock where she would chase swallows & swifts dipping toward the ground and I wonder if she simply had a relapse back to her pup days? I know the trainer had not done anything specific to stop her chasing 'flying birds' as it would be difficult to replicate and she focused on cattle / livestock and pheasants


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

You can replicate it by using pigeons. 
She's a bird dog, so you want her to be able to point, and stalk birds.
You just need to get the chase under control.


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

A couple thoughts...
Was your Pro Trainer for general obedience or for bird/hunting training? This will affect how your address the situation….

When your dog took off in hot pursuit - everything in the dogs mind is on OVERLOAD..its a one track mind, as birds are its Cocaine its ultimate rush and ultimate distraction. VERY VERY VERY few young dogs will break off chase on a bird...as you said - its a BIRD DOG. Its what they were bred for. Its like asking a herding dog not to herd or a labrador retriever not to get into the water….

Also, few vizsla's will ever run off on you. Usually its more a matter of the owner becoming comfortable with not being able to see the dog for a short period. If you can swing the cost of a GPS unit, that would put your mind at ease. It did for me….

Some dogs you are better off to let them chase and learn that chasing in unproductive and that it will not yield the prey its pursuing.

You said: 

1. _eventually she gave up chasing the birds , saw and heard me and ran back to me and lay at my feet totally shattered_" I wouldn't view it at Shattered…I bet your dog was thinking, wow mom that was soooooo much fun. When can we do it again. The other key point is SHE GAVE UP CHASING….most dogs do. Take this as a positive in that your dog will stop chasing and come back to you. I doubt your yelling and her seeing convinced her to come back as much as she was done with her chase and decided on her own to come back. 

2. _I am still in shock as it was a horrible experience thinking you are going to lose your beloved V and i have never seen her like that before._ What you saw was the inner DNA coming through and the dog doing what it was born to do. Many will pay good money for a dog with sort of hunt desire to them….I for one, often just stop and admire in AWE when I see my dogs go into hunt mode. I truly think its one of the most amazing sites to see…. As Texas Red stated, though, eventually you break the habit of chasing for a finished dog performance, but I am not clear in your post what your training objectives are….

3. _I really dont like having the e-collar but it was suppose to be a back up if needed but she ignored it. _ If you think of the e-collar as a negative tool or punishment, you are bound not to like it. If you change your view point and view it as que or signal to the dog and you use only enough juice to get his attention or signal him, you'll start to see the value in an e-collar. When you recall your dog, use the lowest setting possible to get the desired reponse. It really is no different than a que as a pop of the leash with a collar. You wouldn’t take a leash and yank it like you are trying to start a lawn mower just to call him back to you in a low distraction setting…so you shouldn't do the same with an E-collar, however if your dog is chasing something into the road with cars, you just might have to…

4 _Is this a one-off adrenalin rush ??_ Not likely - the hunter has been awakened….


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

The Northern California Vizsla Club will be holding "Fun Field Days" this Saturday at Hastings Island Hunting Club. 

For the last four years I have planted birds for the pups to get their first taste of birds. You get everything from fear of the bird to keen interest. We always cheer on those young pups that run like crazy after the bird that has taken flight. Shows the intristic drive and that the DNA of the hunter has passed through the mating of good breeding.

You got yourself a Hungarian Pointer. A hunting dog. Enjoy and learn how to live with a dog like no other.

RBD


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

_



I really dont like having the e-collar but it was suppose to be a back up if needed but she ignored it.

Click to expand...

_A common misconception is the purpose of an e-collar. Communication device as SuperV stated.


http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/04/e-collars-are-not-meant-to-inflict-pain.html


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Its going to be training, timing, and consistency that gets you a dog that will recall happily. A month training is not very long, and you have to keep up with what was learned. Not wanting to use the collar, and then using it out of the blue when the pup is on chase, isn't going to work. 

I collar conditioned my daughters adolescent pup, and she would recall for me every time. But my daughter would call me in tears because Lucy had taken off through the woods hunting, and she couldn't find her. The pup would show back up 20-30 minutes later, if you stayed where she last saw you.
It was easy to find the problem. My daughter would be yelling Lucy ,Lucy, Lucy and the pup was tearing off in hot pursuit after field mice, rabbits, flying birds, squirrels, lizards, butterflies. Pretty much anything that moved. She may have been calling Lucy, but her timing was off for a command, or a nick from the collar. 
I had worked with them together, but had to go back and revisit the same training. Put back on the check cord, and let the pup hunt. Lucy Here, and if she did not respond in seconds, it was a tug on the cord, and the exact same time a low nick from the collar. After recall, have the pup stand next to her, pet and praise, and then release her to go back hunting. The dog learns they have to recall, but you will let them go back to having fun. Its in no way a punishment.

Hunting dogs want to hunt, and you just have to slowly convince them to hunt your way. Even if your not a hunter, your pup can still hunt on off lead walks, and have good recall.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Mut - you did not post how you recall - voice or whistle - @ 1-2yrs these pups have a mind of their own - time 2go back 2 basics - whoa board - check cord - whistle hand & voice commands - the E collar is great - PIKE the first pup 2 have 1 @ 14mos old - 4 me just a long distance correction when PIKE is out of sight - I'm old school - training Vgins & ends with EYE CONTACT ! unless on point - PIKE looks 4me 4 the next command !


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## mutley66 (Oct 25, 2014)

Hi, the pro dog trainer focused on all basic stuff, sit, stay, walking on lead, walking off lead to heal, recall, all using a whistle for commands to sit, stay and recall, as well as voice. The ecollar was only purchased as an 'emergency back up' and the only times i've previosuly used the ecollar was in situations where i feared my V was in danger (i.e cars fast approaching on roads or dangerous dogs not on a lead). I never expected i would have had to use the ecollar for a recall situation. she seemed to take in and absorb everything at the 4 weeks at the trainers and since bringing her back home she has been great and her recall fairly prompt using the whistle. Although we live rural, we have had no hunting training for her as i have no plans to do this. The trainer also went through the process of ensuring she does not chase sheep, cattle, pheasants etc very successfully but obviosly not flying birds! I guess as everyone has stated, this is her natural instinct kicking in and it is difficult to suppress this/


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Its in her genes to hunt, so you would be going against what nature gave her.
You want to have some control over the hunt, but not suppress it.
As in she can hunt on her own (even if you don't), and give a safe chase. Just not runoff in a unsafe area. It take some time in training, and maturity of the dog, not to give into the chase when it comes to flying birds. It also depends on how much prey drive she has. 

Lucy would even give chase on airplanes flying over, and I live close to a major airport. That pup lived on a check cord when out running, until she was fully collar condition. The daughter that owns her does not hunt, but hunt training was needed to safely run her.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> I guess as everyone has stated, this is her natural instinct kicking in and it is difficult to suppress this


My youngest daughter growing up was a ballerina from the age of 5 until 19. That was what she was driven to do. We invested huge amounts of time and money in helping her live her dream of dancing at the highest levels.

Some have the drive and some don't.

If you can find ways to channel the instinct, she will be a happy hunter. If you learn to work with her, she will bring you wonderful memories and adventures.

happy trails,

RBD


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

Mutley66, when we started to have problems with our first V we got some 1 to 1 training with a gun dog trainer over a period of a few months. What I realised from this was it wasn't about training the dog, it was about training us. To me, that's the problem with sending a dog away to be trained. It's fine if you are experienced with dogs but if you aren't then you don't have the tools to maintain the training - and it does need constantly maintaining!

I would suggest you get some 1 on 1 sessions with the trainer so they can see how you are handle your dog and teach you not the dog.

I think, as already suggested, you should re-consider your expectations. My dogs roam all the time and on a regular walk they are probably out of my sight for at least 50% of the time, looking for/chasing birds or rabbits or just plain running. They do come back regularly though. 'checking in', which I think most owners would confirm is pretty typical behaviour. For me, these times are their 'treat' - doing what they most enjoy.

I can understand you were frightened by your experience and you need to get your confidence back. I've used e-collars in the past (purely for recall) and found them extremely effective. SuperV summed it up very well. You need to be comfortable using it because if it is going to help you with recall you have to use it consistently. Regular practice at first and always enforce it through the e-collar if you don't get an immediate response. With our dogs they were responding immediately at least 95% of the time within days - prior to this their recall was appalling (one was great and then went off the rails and the other was a re-home that not only had no recall but ran up to and jumped up at *everybody* she saw, including knocking over children). What's better for your dog, an e-collar or you restrict her life because you don't trust her? It doesn't have to be permanent feature of her life - a good guideline is you can ditch it when you haven't had to use it for a month.

It's also been mentioned but I would also train her to recall to a whistle because the tone gets their attention much better than a human voice and carries further.


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## mutley66 (Oct 25, 2014)

I fully understand and agree the best option for my V is to trust her and allow her the freedom off the lead to roam and enjoy herself, as she is a 'bird dog' and i certainly dont want to suppress her natuarl instincts. I gues its more difficult as i have no interest in hunting and she definitley has 'it in her' to follw her hunting instincts. I've had a few dogs; German Shepherd & Polish Lowland but i've never seen any dog being so aware of whats happening in the sky above them like my V does ! most dogs focus on whats in front of them and very rarely respond to whats above (not just birds but helicopters, planes etc!). i'm actually comfortable using the ecollar as i compare the worst case scenarios that could happen if i didnt use one and as someone stated, i little shock is far better to administer than some serious medical procedure at the vets. I guess i really need to trust myself and my V more to give her the freedom to roam and enjoy her time off the lead. We had followed the pro trainers advice and guidance by continually doing the training with her after she returned to us, but i have noticed in the last 2 weeks she has certainly shown major interest in birds. The pro trainer had suggested we return her for an additional 1 week training after about 6 months to 'remind' her of the basics taught but i may opt for some 1 to 1 sessions instead.


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't know what resources your trainer has, but be aware it is difficult train behavior for situations if you don't set yourself up to train it IN that situation. My oldest for instance...recall was spectacular everywhere, except in the field while hunting. So training the recall outside of the hunting environment would have had little effect, so I set up scenarios/situations in the field to teach that she still had to listen to me while in the field as well.

Hope this helps...

nate


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