# 99.8% wolf and raw, meaty bones



## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

I've noticed a number of people reporting aggressive behavior when they give their dogs raw, meaty bones. The clear solution, at least to me, would be to stop giving them the bones. Just read a little article in "Prevention" magazine (Dec. 2011) about chew toys, and it said "Fresh bones from the butcher have drawbacks... biting the hard exterior can crack teeth, and sucking marrow can cause pancreatitis." They recommend stuffed Kongs.

Another factor we should keep in mind is that dogs' DNA is 99.8% identical to that of wolves. In essence, we are living with predators -- gentle predators, but predators, nonetheless. Raw, meaty bones probably just bring out some deep-seated instinctive behaviors. Have you ever seen a nature documentary showing a wolf pack at a fresh kill? Very aggressive posturing (and even fights) going on there! Willie has never, ever growled at me, but then, I've never given him a raw, meaty bone, either. Who knows? ;D 

p.s. I think it's interesting that the act of pointing at prey is actually part of the wolf's genetically hard-wired behavioral sequence, coded right into the DNA. Through human manipulation (a.k.a. selective breeding) we have clipped and saved just a part of that behavioral hunting sequence, the stalking portion of the hunt, and frozen it. The point is a frozen "stalk"! In other dog breeds, the stalk has not been frozen (think Border Collies), but the "kill" part of the sequence has been eliminated.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Excellent!
I agree there is no need to feed house pets raw food at all. 
We saw a documentary of Asian origin of a white wolf pack being domesticated. The main and most important factor was feeding them only cooked food. Vegetables, rice, and meat - all cooked. This helped desensitize the wolf-dogs and less aggression toward the human care takers was observed.

Personally, I never understood why we need to feed them raw. These dogs are have been bred on human grade food for centuries. 
==========================

The problem we face is that after World War 2 there were only 12 certified pure bred Vizsla dogs in Hungary [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizsla (Note: the first picture on the right is not a Vizsla - it is that of the Erdei Kopo - Vizsla mix, a distant relative of the Vizsla)] :'( Hard to believe the stock is as healthy as it is today. The limited gene pool is why we see so much sensitivity to food and odd allergies with these dogs. 
I don't mind if the original Vizsla dog was partly mixed with the Weimer and the GSP to keep it from extinction.
This link illustrates my point http://www.vizslamyositis.blogspot.com/ 
So far, I have not seen dogs in Hungary or North America exhibit similar problems. Could be a localized, mostly British Vizsla dog DNA deficiency?


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

I agree, datacan. The B.A.R.F. diet (bones and raw food) has quite a following, but I've always been a little skeptical. Asked the Vet about it several years back, and he said (and I quote) "Animals suffer from the same food-bourne illnesses that humans do. We cook our food for a reason, and that reason is safety." Wolves don't eat cooked food because they have no choice, but they also die much earlier deaths than their domesticated counterparts, living on average about seven years. Now it turns out that even clean, fresh raw bones can also pose a health risk to pets, according to that article in "Prevention" magazine.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

There are other studies that state raw meat is the absolute best thing you can feed a dog. 
Who are we to believe? 
From what I have read, dogs do not suffer from the same foodborne diseases as us because of different enzymes in their stomachs. I've never had raw chicken, but I will assume that it would make me quite ill right away. Mischa gobbles it up with no issues... other than some extra gas! 

We don't give Mischa raw meat/bones all that often, but when we do, we work on taking it away as well. 
How could you practice that without the real thing? 

I know not everyone is up to that challenge, but it is something you work on from a young age. A puppy isn't very threatening, but trying it for the first time on a 60 lbs dog would certainly be more daunting. 


I never thought about pointing as a "clip" of the full hunting sequence. 
That is a very interesting observation mswhipple. Breeding really is an amazing process.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Yes, I have read the same thing about different stomach enzymes in dogs. Still, I tend to believe my Vet about subjects like botulism, salmonella, and e.coli. 

http://www.vetinfo.com/foodborne-dog-illness.html

We are all entitled to our own opinions, of course!

That documentary I saw a while back was so interesting! The film showed a wolf pack from a helicopter's eye view (so to speak), and followed the pack through one entire hunting sequence. This pack was hunting on the edge of a herd of caribou. The steps were to locate the herd (hunt), stalk the prey (choose target and sneak up on it), kill the prey, and eat the prey. This very successful sequence of behaviors has evolved over millions of years and is literally hard-wired into the wolf.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

please i doubt the wolfs life span is short because of the food it eats. Maybe the conditions the other predators, lack of food or water.

I'm going to feed my puppy the RAW diet, i've read numerous things about any kibble. It equals Mickey'd's in our world. I wouldn't feed my child mickey'ds once a week let alone 3 times a day!

The dog food companies RUN the vets. They support and fund all vet schools and in turn the Vets push the poision on us and since they are "Pet" Doctors we HAVE to believe it...well i don't believe it.

it takes a bit more work but i care enough to try it!


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## Kobi (Oct 26, 2010)

mswhipple, you're making me rethink giving bones to Kobi! I don't give him ones from the butcher, but I get the "meaty bones" from a outdoors store that are absolutely humongous and apparently very tasty. Kobi loves them, but he can get aggressive with them, ESPECIALLY when he has an opportunity to go under my bed (apparently his den).

I don't think he would bite me, BUT I would hate to find out otherwise.

I'm pretty sure I haven't shared this video here (because frankly, it's a bit embarrassing as his owner to see him act this way, even if it is funny), but this is how he acts with a bone under the bed. He is never like this until he gets under the bed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxH8uko-wTc


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

A bit vitriolic and passionate, don't you think looney?

None the less, I'd welcome links to proof (not heresay, not accusations)that pet food manufacturers run the vets. Knowing several vets as both chums and as my clients, I'm skeptical of the statement. Empirically, the perception doesn't match my personal experience.

I welcome any links to studies that scientifically show the value of a RAW/BARF diet, or for that matter, to diets supplied by pet food manufacturers. Because I/you want the best for our companions it is an important discussion. I have an open mind to all valid evidence.


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## Kobi (Oct 26, 2010)

Looney - just wanted to point out there ARE higher quality kibbles out there. Whether or not you agree with the idea of feeding kibble to your dog is up to you, but you definitely can't put all dog food manufacturers in the same group. Yes, many vets will suggest nutritionally poor foods because they receive kickbacks from the manufacturers. But that doesn't mean that ALL dry food is evil. 

Check out dogfoodanalysis.com for help comparing quality foods to the lesser ones.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

Aimless1 said:


> A bit vitriolic and passionate, don't you think looney?
> 
> You can call me Christian, Looney is my last name.
> 
> ...


Not quite sure what vitriolic means but passonate yes....i read articles just like anyone can on the subject just google it. i'm sure you've read them before since you seem to have a vast knowledge on the subject. I was just stating my opinion from what i've read. i'm not that smart or into proving things i just read many articles and form my opionion and choices on that.....so far i don't like what kibble has to offer.

You don't find it odd that we are feeding our dogs cereal and grains and crap? I've never seen a stray dog munching on wheat or a corn stalk.....i've seen them rip apart road kill, i've seen them eat smaller animals...never grains or cereal.

You may not have an open mind like mine, i don't believe alot of the junk that doctors shove down our throats either...they all have an agenda. Vets have an agenda also. Why would a vet tell you to do this? It's proven (written somewhere again google it) that it decreases the illness, alergies, and most importantly vet trips. Hmmmmmmm less vet trips means what? less money to your chums, i'd tell you raw food is the devil too if my income depended on it. 

Like you don't think we can make roads that don't fall apart or get potholes? We could grind up the used rubber from tires and make asphalt with it and it would last for a long long time without potholes.
Now without the state having to redo roads what, every 2 years, where would those jobs go? If potholes didn't wreck our cars what would tire and reapair shops do?
just examples to help my point along.

I wasn't telling anyone to feed the raw diet or this or that just voicing my opionion was all.

you feed your boy kibble and i'll feed my laszlo raw and clean up his minimal dry poo.....if i want too they say it will just go away since it's really not much of anything.

i love animals and want to give him the best i can.
on a side note i'm going to fully switch my kitten Heinz today to raw...he's been mucnhing on chicken thighs (no bone yet) and is not real interested in his kibble anymore? for what that's worth i don't know.

i suggest or wish everyone just google raw vs. commecial kibble. If for nothing just to have more knowledge on this subject.

sorry if i came off in the wrong light wasn't my intentions.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

Kobi said:


> Looney - just wanted to point out there ARE higher quality kibbles out there. Whether or not you agree with the idea of feeding kibble to your dog is up to you, but you definitely can't put all dog food manufacturers in the same group. Yes, many vets will suggest nutritionally poor foods because they receive kickbacks from the manufacturers. But that doesn't mean that ALL dry food is evil.
> 
> Check out dogfoodanalysis.com for help comparing quality foods to the lesser ones.


yeah i read all bout the good kibble and pricey kibble and this that and the other, i've been looking into this for 3 years planning how i'll raise my boy. I had a really old cat so i couldn't get a puppy but i'm a planner and have been learning. The readings i have found that even the best kibble is still...kibble and has grains veggy's and cereal in them....from what i've read the dogs don't need that stuff?
So your opinion is that all kibble is not evil, i feel it is...agree to disagree. I'm sure your pup is just fine and dandy on kibble, i don't want to argue with anyone i'm here to learn. Hugs??????

ps. if one vet gets kickbacks....THEY ALL GET KICKBACKS!!!! it's the world we live in!


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

Found this link http://www.terrificpets.com/articles/102273765.asp which I don't consider proof of any thing. But it is a nice summary of the discussion of BARF vs kibble that I happen to agree with.

Both diets can be healthy. I look to field trialers who demand the best performance from their dogs. I'm not aware of any successful field trialer who uses the RAW diet or BARF, although you would think there would be some. They feed kibble, and generally not as high quality as the food I feed my dogs.


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## BamBam (Feb 14, 2010)

I feed both of my adult dogs the barf diet and have since they were puppies. The breeder also fed them barf, and most other breeders I speak to feed barf aswell. I have never had any problems with aggressive behaviour around any bones or food in either my male or female dog. They will let me take their dinner off them without even a complaint.
I am always complimented on how healthy they look and how shiny their coats are.
I train my bitch as a gundog, and have also showed her and she is qualified for Crufts next year. I know lots of people here in the UK that feed raw and take their dogs to Working Tests and Field Trials.
I love knowing exactly what my dogs are eating and putting all my energy in making sure they get the best diet as they are like my children so it's very important they are healthy to me.
I had some bad experiences with kibble in the past with my family dog when I was child (finding cigarette butts amoungst other stuff in the food) . My particular vet doesn't agree with me feeding raw and has asked me to put them on Hills diet which they sale. It's just something we will have to disagree on, abit like vets suggesting you neuter at 6 months, alot of people have different opinions on that too.
I just wanted to add to the discussion that I have been feeding raw to both my dogs all their life and they have no aggressive issues, ever, and have superb temparements, and my bitch is worked and shown.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Vitriol describes Sulphuric Acid and various metal sulphates but in the sense of words means bitterly abusive language; The term describes poisonous speech and discourse. 
===========================

While kibble has it's drawbacks - mainly the lack of water content, I think there is a link between raw food and violence in dogs. 
Mainly because of relationship issues and most dog owners are simply clueless how solve them. 
Important to know that raw, meaty bones are worth fighting for in the dog world. 
So if we feed raw meaty bones we will quickly find a speed bump in our relationship with the dog. Doesn't mean the dog is blood thirsty or will start attacking humans randomly, it just means our leadership skills have holes and need to be attended. 

There are rules and one of them is the dog has to learn that WE are the providers and it is still the follower. WE chose to give a higher value food item and the DOG has to know that WE are in control. Good luck with that.
I found this link while looking up the meaning of vitriolic (vitriolic rhetoric) Aimless1 mentioned earlier 
http://rawfed.com/myths/

Anyway, I agree with all those who don't feed raw. There is good quality kibble out there.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

WOW, the Kobi video is pretty stunning, must admit! And I know from your other posts that he is a very good boy. 

Looney and BamBam, yes, we will have to agree to disagree. I, too, did the research years and years ago, and I decided against the raw diet for safety reasons. I didn't mean to start a B.A.R.F. debate, but in the interest of open-mindedness, you should Google "foodborne illnesses in dogs." I did prepare homemade dog food for my diabetic dog for a period of 2-1/2 years, but everything was cooked. As I said before, we are all entitled to our own opinions. Willie eats a high-quality kibble supplemented with additional protein. 

As for aggressive behavior being linked to blood and raw meat, I was only speculating; but like datacan, I, too, think a link does exist... and my thinking is this: Why would you want to provoke, deliberately, a confrontation with your dog, who is, after all, 99.8% wolf? To teach "leave it," give it back," or whatever your chosen command is, why not use a favorite toy or crunchy biscuit rather than something raw and bloody? We have two-tenths of one per cent of the DNA (that's .2%) working in our favor, making a dog a dog, and not a wolf. Respect the wolf within. This isn't a B.A.R.F. debate. That's why I posted in General Chit Chat.  Didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, though.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Looney said:


> yeah i read all bout the good kibble and pricey kibble and this that and the other, i've been looking into this for 3 years planning how i'll raise my boy. I had a really old cat so i couldn't get a puppy but i'm a planner and have been learning. The readings i have found that even the best kibble is still...kibble and has grains veggy's and cereal in them....from what i've read the dogs don't need that stuff?
> So your opinion is that all kibble is not evil, i feel it is...agree to disagree. I'm sure your pup is just fine and dandy on kibble, i don't want to argue with anyone i'm here to learn. Hugs??????
> 
> ps. if one vet gets kickbacks....THEY ALL GET KICKBACKS!!!! it's the world we live in!


I can admit that as dog lovers, we are all a little "looney", but you sir are crazier than a tree full of chickens!


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

Mischa said:


> Looney said:
> 
> 
> > yeah i read all bout the good kibble and pricey kibble and this that and the other, i've been looking into this for 3 years planning how i'll raise my boy. I had a really old cat so i couldn't get a puppy but i'm a planner and have been learning. The readings i have found that even the best kibble is still...kibble and has grains veggy's and cereal in them....from what i've read the dogs don't need that stuff?
> ...


Well i didn't know we are to insult or put down each other here. I find that disgusting and ignorant. Looney is my last name and i don't think you are funny at all. I made good statements that others agreed with so how am i crazy? If you believe everything that Doctors, Vets and the Government tell us then i feel sorry for you.
thanks for bringing this down to a middle school mentallity. Good job.

to everyone else, thanks for the discussion.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Now, now...

For those who want to participate in a debate about raw vs. kibble, the place to do it would be in "Diet & Eating". And Mr. Looney, it does seem like your comments did not allow for anyone else's opinion, and were very heated, and almost brought this thread up to a boil. Most of us try to respect the opinions of others, but it didn't seem like you were willing to do that. :'( Sorry, but people are bound to react.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

wow...that's not how i read my post at all.
i was just saying what i feel, thougth that was allowed? If not i'm sure that will be one of my last posts here. I don't like to be called names or have my name mocked. It is uncalled for even if you don't agree with what or how i said something?
I really thought i was just bs'ing like you would in a group of ppl.
I'll stay and just read and learn what i can and post A picture of my Laszlo. 
again sorry if it came across that way.


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## BamBam (Feb 14, 2010)

Hi Looney,

The best way to find out more re barf is to buy this book- http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0646160281/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1321459582&sr=8-1
And it will tell you what you need to feed. 
Also if you were interested in doing a course then the Cambridge Institute of Dog Behaviour and Training offer a foundation course in Canine Care and Behaviour which discusses feeding and how what you feed your dog plays a big role in your dogs behaviour and temperament. Certain ingredients in kibbles can lead to alot if hyperactive behaviour in dogs, aggression, anxiety, and also skin conditions. Not sure if you would be I interested in all that, I have only taken the course as I work with dogs aswell as own them. 
Anyway there was also a great thread on this forum re barf awhile back where someone posted alot of detail of what they feed each day. Here it is http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,654.msg4952.html#msg4952
If link doesn't work try typing in barf diet in the search bar on here and find the discussion. 
I will reply to your PM with some pics


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

thank you much bambam.


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## Vespasia (Apr 19, 2010)

My oh my! As someone who has been a member of this forum for awhile, this is most drama I've ever seen!  Assuming that no one has hurt feelings over anything previously posted - I must say that I like the passion!  (keeping in mind that I am a drama queen at heart! )

Realizing that this isn't technically the place for a kibble vs. raw food diet - seems how the post turned into that anyway - I feel I must comment as a very passionate RAW FOOD FEEDER.

I've fed Hally raw food for most of her 2 year life and will continue to do so. I don't think that kibble feeders are evil or my enemies - it's really a personal choice. There is a lot of valid research out there that suggests that a raw food diet is healthier, safer and leads to greater longevity in our pets - but for me it's just what I prefer. I like knowing exactly where hally's food comes from and I like knowing everything that is going into it before she eats it. I'm sure anybody who was feeding their pet a product made by Menu Foods back in 2007 would now agree.

My vet is a huge advocate for raw food (hence why I picked him!) and he will attest to other vets receiving kickbacks for the promotion of certain kibbles - whether they are actually the best or not. A recommeded reading for ANY dog owner, whether a raw food or kibble eater is:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Holistic-...3433/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321465476&sr=8-1

Don't let the title fool you - "The Holistic Way" - the book isn't really all that out there! It does provide some counter arguments to the western way of thinking about health and diet though.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

I really didn't intend for this to become a B.A.R.F. debate. I think my original point has been lost on a few people. Sorry everybody.


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## virgilsmom (Aug 13, 2008)

I don't really have an opinion on Raw food versus dry food, to each his own.

However it was mentioned somewhere above that someone had never seen a stray dog eat corn. Well I have seen it many times, in fact my dogs think corn is a treat. They love to pull ears of corn off of stalks, shuck it themselves and munch on it, both sweet corn and field corn . They love it when we spill shelled corn on the ground and will stand and eat it. I limit access to piles of corn until imost of t has been cleaned up but do let them have an ear of corn to chew on. They enjoy it and i don't think it has hurt any of them. They have plenty of food, its just something different for them.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Just to bounce it to the top again.
The topic was RAW, MEATY BONES and how it's related to guarding behavior with aggression. 

If anyone has figured out how to solve the aggression issue around raw, meaty bones - please, I would like to know how you went about it. 

But if my dog was aggressive like that I would take my dog to a neutral area, use 2 collars and tie one to a tree and use the other collar (a prong collar) to teach him to drop on command. Anyhow, I would not risk giving him raw, meaty bones until I know the dog can be trusted 100%.

I still don't agree with raw feeding even if it was a University course.


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## KonasPop (Aug 9, 2011)

For us its always been pretty straightforward...you have to continually put the bones, doggy, you and others in the situation where you pull the bone away. So at puppy stage and even in adolescent stage, we give the bone to the dogalways with the intent that we will come back for it in a minute. So, I let em' at it for a few minutes and then the fun begins...

I always approach as if to say, - you're darn right thats mine and I'm comin for it.I dont bum rush the dog, i just walk with confidence and get on one knee real close. I dont say stuff like "oh you have you'reeee bonenennenee" you know the voice. I just walk up and 100% of the gun dogs we've owned all growl as puppy/adolescents - even the girsl. This is them testing you - lets just see how bad you want this. I mean you gave it to me in the first place right?

The first sound of a growl and you put your hand straight on that bone while at the same time using the backside of your hand to push their mouth off of it, and still at the same time you're saying somesort of command you choose - "mine" "drop" "Heeeeeeey" Our commands during this aren't short and loud, but LOOW and Sloow. This is your big grow back, plus a little physical - reminder you're not hitting your dog or shoving it across the room - its a very controlled grab for the exposed bone part (any dumb dumb knows not to put your and actually in a dogs mouth with a bone - even a puppy). Use the back of your hand to move them out of the way and then start the final part...

I get down on all fours and "chew" the bone with my finger nails *mouth close but obviously this isnt my favorite treat" i want them to think it is though. By now - you're dog is freakin out that this has all happened in about 5 seconds...they will wine, bronco bounce, dig, paw, roll over until they finally just lay down and watch....thats when you say good boy/girl and slide the bone back and turn and leave. 

We do this EVERY time our dog has a bone until its a non issue. Then we have nieces and smaller ones do it too, all under close supervision of course. But this just solidifies that anyone can have this bone -its not hers/his - they are borrowing from us. 

hope that helps. Note that this is for a younger dog on the mild side of aggression. Not for a redzone case or adult dog that would actually reach out and bite if you got to close. I've only used this technique with younger dogs under 3. I'm sure for older more aggressive dogs there is a better way.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

^we use a similar approach. 
It is not everyone's cup of tea to challenge their dog, but it's worked well for us.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Looney said:


> I really thought i was just bs'ing like you would in a group of ppl.


Do you honestly believe that I was doing anything different? 
It was a joke.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

oh sorry after 34 years of #### jokes like that i'm a bit over them. grow up. please let the be the end of the back and forth jabs....thanks

http://preymodelraw.com/2010/02/05/how-to-get-started-feeding-a-prey-model-raw-diet/

this is what i'm trying to learn and go by.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

ctracyverizon said:


> Looney said:
> 
> 
> > I don't like to be called names or have my name mocked.
> ...


I use my last name as my screen name so i remember it and that's asking to be made fun of by adults?
I guess i just don't get that. I'm as real as any person you'll ever meet, i've been told it's my best and worst trait. I don't expect adults to make fun of things like middle schoolers......
I thought we could end this but you keep it going? i'll lighten up i guess if you grow up? that's a fair deal right? please stop this,it's upseting and will never end. I will not let ppl mock or make fun of me i don't know who would?
back to the topic please.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

ctracyverizon said:


> Looney ...


so this is the level of respect and intellegence i have to look foward too? fun times.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Didn't I notice in one of your previous posts, earlier in this thread, that your first name is Christian? You could have used Christian. That's a nice name...

I must admit it makes me a little sad that a thread I started got highjacked in this way. Highjacked. :'(


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

Me too i said i was sorry like 4 times and ppl just want to stir up things....
i don't get it, i wish i never would have mentioned raw food........
i'll just read and try not to say much here so i don't have to have negative feelings towards this site. 
Feels like the 350z site where they just rag on and make fun of newbs.
i hate that site and don't go there anymore. I'm sure i can find another V forum if i have too.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

can you change my screen name to Christian then?


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm sorry but I don't know how to do that, sir. You could send a private message to Kobi (forum moderator) or Calum (forum administrator/owner) and ask them that question.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

if it avoids ugly-ness like this i think i may do that thanks!


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

SOME Leadership skill - very impressive :-[ 
I guess there is no way to feed wolves other than fresh raw meat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=A5rN1m2nJzk

The rest is found here 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_MXskJ568o


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## BamBam (Feb 14, 2010)

he looks abit like wolverine !


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