# Problems with breeder... Need advice



## Dillon152 (Jan 28, 2013)

Hey all... Well here is my problem.... I purchased my Vizsla last November, and the breeder still hasn't sent me any of the AKC paperwork that was promised to us as part of the sale. We have tried calling the breeder several times a month since and we never get any response from them at all. Actually, recently, they must've accidentally answered the phone and once I told them who I was and that I wanted the paperwork, I got hung up on.

Now, many people ask me "are you planning on breeding her?" The answer is no, she is already fixed. But, that is not the point! The point is that we had a agreement! And I spent $850 on a pure bred Vizsla that had papers to prove it! I would've never spent that much money on a dog that didnt have papers! 

So I am very seriously considering taking this breeder to small claims court. Before I do though, I am going to have a lawyer send a letter certified mail , explaining that they have 30 days to send the paperwork or else I will be taking them to court.

That's my situation, and I was curious if anyone here had any input to help me out! Thanks


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

My attitude is simple and straightforward - go for it!

Apart from the cost of the solicitor's letter what have you got to lose - it certainly doesn't sound as though you are going to alienate your breeder and lose the benefit of any support from them because you clearly aren't going to get that anyway.

In the UK we wouldn't have to send a solicitor's letter, just send one yourself recorded delivery that specifies what you are going to do and give them a reasonable time to address the issue. Bare in mind that you will have to be able to prove that the AKC paperwork was part of your contract.


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## solefald (May 16, 2013)

$850 for a "purebred" Vizsla sounds pretty sketchy.


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## gmk (Dec 21, 2010)

In California, they have 120 days to get the papers to you. Failure to do so allows you a 75% refund if you choose to keep the dog, or if you return the dog a full refund.
If the pet dealer(_this is anyone having 3 litters in 12 months)_ has represented your dog as registrable with a
pedigree organization, the pet dealer shall provide you with the
necessary papers to process the registration within 120 days
following the date you received the dog. If the pet dealer fails to
deliver the papers within the prescribed timeframe, you are entitled
to return the dog for a full refund of the purchase price, including
sales tax, or a refund of 75 percent of the purchase price, including
sales tax if you choose to keep the dog.

Some questions for you: 
Do you have a bill of sale contract stating that the dog could be registered?
Do you have the registration numbers of Sire & Dame?
You will need some type of written proof that the dog was sold as registerable.


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## Dillon152 (Jan 28, 2013)

Unfortunately all I have is a unsigned copy of the contract... The breeder kept the signed copy... I, obviously, never thought it'd come to this. My fiancé was there with me when we picked up our V, and we both know that she had said that she needed to mail the paper work in and once she gets it back she'll mail it to us. 

Hopefully a threatening letter from a attorney is all that I need to resolve this problem. In the meantime, I need to look up Ohio's laws! Thanks


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## GarysApollo (Nov 27, 2012)

I would definitely go after them. All though I would have never gotten the puppy without the papers given to me at the time of pick up.


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

Jeez...don't you people watch Judge Judy?! 

Clearly a signed contract would be better but you still have a winnable case. Remember, a small claims case is decided on the balance of probability (i.e. who the judge believes most) unlike a criminal case where the proof as to be beyond reasonable doubt.

A judge won't believe that a professional breeder won't have a contract so he would be expected to produce his copy. Aside from faking your signature, his copy will agree with yours. You also have a witness even if they aren't independent. I've taken a few people to the small claims court in the UK and haven't lost yet.


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## Dillon152 (Jan 28, 2013)

This is really unfortunate, because Mylen (the Vizsla we purchased) is really a amazing girl. She has the best temperament imaginable! But, if I don't raise the BS flag, there will be another person purchasing a V behind me who will also be put in this situation. And if they are scamming people on the paperwork, what else are they not telling us? 

I LOVE my girl I got from them, but I still do not support irresponsible breeders. Somebody has to do something to stop it.


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## TheRamshire (Apr 29, 2013)

That sounds pretty sketchy since the breeder can limit the registration papers if there is a spay / neuter agreement in play. Also, to follow up on a previous comment, $850 is probably the least I would pay for a V. You want to look at spending $1,000 and up. This doesn't guarantee that you'll be dealing with a reputable breeder, but those who ARE will not likely be charging less than that.


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## lonestar (Jun 2, 2013)

Who's the breeder? A little negative publicity on a Vizsla web board cant be a bad idea here. I also agree that if you have some information on the sire and dam, and/or the kennel itself, you might be able to track down the info you need and also lodge an official complaint with the AKC if she's registered as a breeder. If she's licensed, then she'd have to abide by the by laws and guidelines established for breeder practices, and her violation of them could result in sanction by them, which isnt good for business.

Although I understand your frustration and sense of betrayal here, I'm not sure what the legal remedies are. You have to prove some tangible loss as a result of the breeders actions, and then you'd have to quantify and justify them in monetary terms and then you'd have to accept the courts judgment. The courts cannot compel the breeder to produce the papers, they cannot take her license away (if she has one), and it's unlikely they'll pass judgement that the breeder should return your money, unless you're willing to return the dog. And then there's the issue of enforcement of that judgement. Sadly, all the emotional aspects of this are lost in the judicial process, it's about contract law. And in the absence of a signed contract which would spell out the responsibilities of both parties, the court is limited in what it can actually order here.

Sometimes, it's best to exhaust all your options (letters, negative internet publicity) and let go of it and move on. After all, you got a Vizsla, and at a really low price, too.


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## tknafox2 (Apr 2, 2013)

Papers are great... if U know where your dog came from, and U love it..................... it really doesn't matter!
If U had plans for breeding, competition, or the X- GAMES... maybe it would make a difference.
Bite the bullet ... put a really bad rating on YELP and go home and love the **** out of your baby!

MY baby had AWSOME papers... she only lived 2.5 yrs.................... get my drift


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Why papers are important? Not because having an AKC is the end all be all of what is good and right in the world BUT you can go back many generations looking for genetic defects. 
But what if YOU don't know what you are looking at on a pedigree. Then it is useless.

To find out, you need to be part of the Vizsla community that UNDERSTANDS dogs going back many generations.

I remember a conversation where a group of long time Vizsla owners looked to see if a breeding we were doing was going to be good.
Six or seven people looked over the names of dogs going back 30 or more years. They KNEW the names of many dogs in the pedigree. They KNEW to look for hip dyspepsia, epilepsy, heart problems and temperament issues. Once they looked at the dogs they gave a green light to the breeding. 17 healthy puppies came of the breeding from Bailey and Sophie. 
Without OFA tests and pedigrees, you are going in completely blind on the health and temperament of the dog. Might as well get a pound pup

My .02 on why you want a pedigree on your Hungarian Pointer.

RBD


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

ACK, CKC are not the breed police...


From Wikipedia on the topic of genetics:

"The AKC has been criticized for the prevalence of genetic disorders in their dogs. As many as 25% of purebred dogs registered by the AKC has at least one hereditary genetic problem.[2] These problems cost breeders and owners cost almost $1 billion in vet bills and lost revenues from stillborn pups"...
AND... *"The AKC has no health standards for breeding"*; the only breeding restriction is age (a dog can be no younger than 8 months).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Kennel_Club


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## 00tjwrangler (Aug 6, 2010)

I would go for it I drove over 6hrs to pick up my vizsla and I looked at over 6 different breeders. I made sure I had all the papers before I left with the dog. I learned after I got my paper back from akc that I didn't have breeding rights and I even paid for them not saying I'm breeding but I wanted them incase I wanted too I sat there talking to the breeder to his face and he never said a word so I know where you are coming from


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## Dillon152 (Jan 28, 2013)

tknafox2 said:


> Papers are great... if U know where your dog came from, and U love it..................... it really doesn't matter!
> If U had plans for breeding, competition, or the X- GAMES... maybe it would make a difference.
> Bite the bullet ... put a really bad rating on YELP and go home and love the **** out of your baby!
> 
> MY baby had AWSOME papers... she only lived 2.5 yrs.................... get my drift


When you pay a large amount of money for something, you'd like it to be as advertised. Dogs with papers are expensive, and dogs without papers are not. 

Plus, if I don't say anything the next person to buy from them will have to go through the same thing. Get my drift?


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## tknafox2 (Apr 2, 2013)

Dillon, :-\
I'm so sorry, I really didn't mean to sound sarcastic, I was just trying to put a different spin on the issue.
I totally agree with you, and you absolutely are entitled to what you paid for. 
Good luck 
Tammy


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Dillon is driving a hard bargain 8)... I want to learn some of those negotiating skills, LOL ;D
Never found a litigation lawyer who wrote a letter for less than $6000...
not to mention an $850 purebred dog ...


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Dillon, do you mind telling us the registered name of the dam and shire of your pup?


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Tex is on the right trail - ? R dam & sire registered - if no your pup could never V registered - easy 2 check out - ? was the litter ever registered - time 4 U 2 go to work - also does breeder have a web site - love 2 check it out


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## moonlightviz (Aug 17, 2012)

While I am glad you are happy with your puppy, simply having AKC Papers is not a sign of quality, nor is it a sign you've adopted from a reputable breeder. 

Read about AKC Facts here: 
http://www.akc.org/press_center/facts_stats.cfm?page=puppy_buyer_fact_sheet

Here is a link for more on reputable breeders: 
"A Dozen Simple Ways to be Certain You Are Working With a Reputable Breeder" http://speakingforspot.com/blog/201...tain-you-are-working-with-a-reputable-breeder

If you have an issue with your breeder, you should contact the AKC and file a written complaint:
http://www.akc.org/contact/answer_center/faq_resolveconflict.cfm

Good luck.


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## stryker (Dec 9, 2012)

Do it because if they are doing it to you they are probably doing it to a lot of people some of which are two apathetic to do anything and some that are to timid. You need to strike a blow for yourself and the little guy. Stand up for your rights.


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## KiwiPaws (Feb 14, 2013)

Hi,

In my experience there is always a reason for why breeders don't send through the papers.

It took months to get papers through finally got them in the end as I had though about showing Nina and needed the papers for that.

Once I looked at the pedigree chart and could see what I call substantial inbreeding I was horrifed and this is one reason I believe the breeder was reluctant for me to have the papers. 

The second reason is that you can then go back and check the male and female lines through websites such as the Vizsla Polymyostis and then be horified again that the lovely Vizsla that you purchased (breeder said no genestic problems with her lines) has lines showing up in this. :'( Hopefully we are clear and no symptons presenting themselves yet.

I know that having papers is not everything...

I think it is great that you are standing up for you and Vizsla's rights.
And like you would not give up our girl for anything but it is the point and principle of the matter.

All the best.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

KiwiPaws
There is no reason to wait till after you purchase a puppy to research pedigree. It should be done before you even consider looking at one of their puppies.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Dillon -U R right to go after the breeder 1 without papers you just have a pound puppy 2 can not enter sanctioned events 3 no way to research what genetic health issues your pup may have 4 loss of value of the pup and your lost time 5 protecting new owners from this breeder the list goes on - as usual this should start before ever picking up a pup - a V is a 16 year investment a future owner must know the breed breeder pedigree and how 2 research all of them - what is a few weeks of your time at the beginning when you will be looking at the results 4 the next 16 years !!!!


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