# RAW diet questions



## Gus_of_MN

Gus hasnt arrrived yet, but i would like to start him on a RAW diet asap. Im curious as to when is a good time to start the diet and how soon a pup can start eating bones. Also what kinds of bones are ok for them to eat and digest? Do any of you give vitamins as an extra? I have tons of question so feel free to tell all you know


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## hotmischief

You can start Raw diet when your puppy come home as it tends not to upset their stomachs, like when you change kibble diets. I would start of with things like chicken wings - you can grind it up in a blender to begin with. Add some vegetable and fruit. You need to remove the skins from carrots as they are not digestable. Raw ground beef, you can even add a raw eggs to the meat now and then. Fish is also excellent, although watch out for bones.

I am lazy and buy all my raw already ground with fruit and vegetables in 1Kg boxes so he gets turkey, chicken, beef, lamb and when I am brave tripe and beef. You need to feed a larger quanity of raw than you would kibble about 5% of puppies body weight, dropping to 3% when he has finished growing.

You could add a general vitamin supplement just to be on the safe side, it certainly won't hurt.

Hope this helps, but I am sure you will get lots of advise as quite a few of us feed a RAW diet. Look forward to seeing some pictures of your pup when he comes home.


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## Gus_of_MN

Thanks for the tips, i was going to grind everything up right away just so the little fella wouldnt have any troubles with the bones. Where do you get your meat from, the grocery store or an actual butcher? How much are you all spending on a monthly basis for all the ingredients?


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## Gus_of_MN

We have a kitchenaid attachment grinder, you think that will grind bones, if not, what do you use?


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## hotmischief

I am afraid I buy my raw already prepared and frozen in kilo boxes from a company called Natural Instinct 

http://www.naturalinstinct.com/categories/All-Dog-Food/

this company is in the UK so won't be much help to you. I think you will have to check out your best source for obtaining meat. The puppy meat I used to give Boris from natural instinct - the bones were ground up quite fine as obviously they are catering for all sizes in the same tub. You need to check there are not little bits with sharp points on after you have ground it up. You can give her a marrow bone (maybe to 2 - 3" in length and width) and as she gets bigger chicken wings. NEVER ever feed cooked bones as these splinter very easily.

As far as the cost goes - I would suspect it costs me around $75 a month, however the cost of living in the UK is higher than in the US and because I buy it already prepared it is much more expensive.


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## SteelCityDozer

I don't feed raw currently (although i have) so I don't have any advice other than there is a Facebook page "raw feeding" which many people use and also I believe some yahoo groups. You might check those out.


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## WillowyndRanch

We don't feed raw. Firstly, with the travel and multiples of dogs it would be a logistical nighmare, and secondly - while at University of California at Davis Veterinary Teaching Hospital with a client and his dog the Veterinarians on staff advised that they do NOT recommend RAW as a canine diet plan. They see many, many cases of food poisoning and serious health complications related to RAW diet. These of course will never make mainstream news as it is an individual, not a commercial feed (lawsuit target).

JMO
Ken


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## loresonde

Let me ask some questions and lend my opinion. What are some of the serious health complications? I'm interested as we are going to feed raw meat to our pup. I cannot see raw meat making a dog any sicker than the human that handles the meat. Nor do I see serious health complications from something that is natural to a dog.

Look at humans, we are all getting overweight because we are eating crap and empty calories. Of course you are not going to see McDonalds and Burger King sponsoring research that proves their food is shorting life and causing disease, that would not be good business for them no matter how socially responsible it is. Just like you will not see research coming out of Universities sponsored by commercial dog food suppliers.


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## WillowyndRanch

loresonde said:


> Let me ask some questions and lend my opinion. What are some of the serious health complications? I'm interested as we are going to feed raw meat to our pup. I cannot see raw meat making a dog any sicker than the human that handles the meat. Nor do I see serious health complications from something that is natural to a dog.
> 
> Look at humans, we are all getting overweight because we are eating crap and empty calories. Of course you are not going to see McDonalds and Burger King sponsoring research that proves their food is shorting life and causing disease, that would not be good business for them no matter how socially responsible it is. Just like you will not see research coming out of Universities sponsored by commercial dog food suppliers.


Those would be questions for the Vet. The vet who discussed this with me is in daily interaction of the most serious cases in all canine health related issues on the West Coast in arguably THE best Veterinary teaching hospital on the West coast and possibly the U.S. Analogizing and hypothesizing don't generate discovery, they merely mimick held beliefs, emotion and pre-generated ideologies and fads.

You're probably right - raw meat wouldn't make the dog any sicker than it could a human. Of course, in humans, food poisoning can mean anything from a great bout of stomach pain and diarhea to internal organ damage and death. I don't think that's probably the strongest argument in favor of RAW.

A quick google search ignoring wholistic sites and focusing on research sites genereated this. Perhaps this might help explain some of what the Vet was telling me.
(Quick summary)
80% Salmonella shed rate in BARF diet. 0% Salmonella in Commercially prepared feed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339295/
and this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003575/


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## threefsh

loresonde said:


> Let me ask some questions and lend my opinion. What are some of the serious health complications? I'm interested as we are going to feed raw meat to our pup. I cannot see raw meat making a dog any sicker than the human that handles the meat. Nor do I see serious health complications from something that is natural to a dog.
> 
> Look at humans, we are all getting overweight because we are eating crap and empty calories. Of course you are not going to see McDonalds and Burger King sponsoring research that proves their food is shorting life and causing disease, that would not be good business for them no matter how socially responsible it is. Just like you will not see research coming out of Universities sponsored by commercial dog food suppliers.


Vets will always push kibble because they are sponsored by kibble companies - the same way they push for you to have your puppy's reproductive organs ripped from their body before they are even done growing. I went to Santa Clara University for a BSC in accounting. All the classrooms were paid for by large CPA firms - can you guess what they pushed as the best and only place to work? It's the same for vets. They have this stuff drilled into them because vet schools receive major funding from kibble companies.

I'm not saying kibble is bad - you just have to take the vets recommendations with a (very large) grain of salt.

We *had* to feed Riley raw meat patties (Primal brand) while she was recovering from her injury or she would have starved. She stopped eating kibble, then refused wet, then wouldn't eat anything we cooked for her. The raw food must have awakened some instinct in her to survive as it was the only thing she would eat. I'm convinced it saved her life when her knee went septic. We switched back to kibble when she was healed, but I'd definitely do it long-term if we could afford it.

If you're going to do raw, buy a formula from a company that regularly tests for salmonella. (Primal or Nature's Variety are both great brands.)


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## datacan

I wrote before but it was too long and I actually liked SteelCityDozer answer better. 

I feed raw but only human grade ground meat not mixed with anything. 
We also feed kibble and we also feed cooked food.

If the dog has a choice it will always choose cooked food first followed by the raw ground meat and last choice is kibble (unless it is laced with aromatic chemicals). 
I also give the boy ester C, if he runs hard, but that is a different topic.


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## mswhipple

I think the RAW diet would be okay, as long as you exercise all due caution (and that would mean A LOT of caution). When I asked my Vet about it a few years ago, he said (and I quote): "Dogs are subject to the same foodborne illnesses that affect human beings. We humans cook our food for a reason, and that reason is safety." 

Don't want to start the big, ol' RAW food debate again. I'm just saying -- be very careful. As long as the food you offer is clean and fresh, you should be fine.


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## born36

WillowyndRanch said:


> We don't feed raw. Firstly, with the travel and multiples of dogs it would be a logistical nighmare, and secondly - while at University of California at Davis Veterinary Teaching Hospital with a client and his dog the Veterinarians on staff advised that they do NOT recommend RAW as a canine diet plan. They see many, many cases of food poisoning and serious health complications related to RAW diet. These of course will never make mainstream news as it is an individual, not a commercial feed (lawsuit target).
> 
> JMO
> Ken


I have to chime here as the Raw Food Diet has saved my pups life. He was on kibble and was allergic to all the filler crap that they put into the food. He was always on hypoallergenic food but this was still the result. Since switching him to Raw he no longer gets hives from head to toe, has gained muscle weight, has a perfect coat and healthy non smelly poo. Dogs can eat raw because their stomachs handle bacteria in a much better way than a humans. To argue that just like humans dogs should....is crazy. Dogs are not human they are dogs and as much as we love then they have different bodies and different needs. Is there a risk that a dog could get sick on raw, yes. It is a small risk if you keep the meat fresh. Is there a risk a dog could get sick on kibble...yes. There is a lot of crap in kibble and these added things can lead to allergies like it did in my pup or it can lead to an increased chance of bloat or cancer or other conditions. There is risk in everything that you feed but both are viable options.


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## hotmischief

I have to second everything Born36 has posted.

I feed the same Raw diet "Natural Instinct" that Born36 feeds his Vizsla - the meat they use is human grade meat. It is also frozen therefore reducing the risk of bacteria. The suggestion that dried food removes the risk of infections such as salmonella - what about all the cases of salmonella from TOW and the withdrawal of the product just a few months ago - much publisied in a post on this forum, and more recently another dried brand.

If any of you have had dogs that have had cancer, like I have, you will have found no end of information that suggest that dried food is linked to certain cancers in dogs, it is certainly linked to bloat/ gastric torsion.

Just like Born36 my 7 month old Vizsla suffered from allergies and soft stools (and far too many of them in a day) - the difference within 24 hours of changing his diet to Raw was drastic and which leads me to conclude that a Raw diet is the most natural diet for a dog. I might add that I have fed 5 Gt Danes a Raw diet over the past 35 yrs and not one of them has been ill as a result of their diet


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## loresonde

WillowyndRanch said:


> Those would be questions for the Vet. The vet who discussed this with me is in daily interaction of the most serious cases in all canine health related issues on the West Coast in arguably THE best Veterinary teaching hospital on the West coast and possibly the U.S. Analogizing and hypothesizing don't generate discovery, they merely mimick held beliefs, emotion and pre-generated ideologies and fads.
> 
> You're probably right - raw meat wouldn't make the dog any sicker than it could a human. Of course, in humans, food poisoning can mean anything from a great bout of stomach pain and diarhea to internal organ damage and death. I don't think that's probably the strongest argument in favor of RAW.
> 
> A quick google search ignoring wholistic sites and focusing on research sites genereated this. Perhaps this might help explain some of what the Vet was telling me.
> (Quick summary)
> 80% Salmonella shed rate in BARF diet. 0% Salmonella in Commercially prepared feed.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339295/
> and this:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003575/


I dont know what to say at this point i'm not trying to offend anyone here and I feel like you have been offended. Maybe I worded something wrong and I apologize for that.


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## mswhipple

In the immortal words of Britney Spears, "Oops, I Did It Again!"

No, loresonde, you didn't do anything to offend anybody. Don't worry. This is just a subject that has been debated here on the forums for a long time. We all have our opinions. No one has been offended. ;D 

p.s. The important thing here is that everyone wants to do the right thing for their dog. The "right thing" just might be different for every dog.


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## hotmischief

loresonde = I doubt you have offended anybody - your post was very factual and interesting. As mswhipple pointed out - this is a forum where topics like this can and should be discussed freely, we all learn from these posts.

I am sure both diets have there pros and cons and I have two further points to add -----bear with me....

One I am sure that dogs can get stomach upsets from Raw just as humans can but just when you feed Raw look at in the same way you would meat you eat yourself - it must be fresh and of good quality - if you wouldn't eat it your self don't feed it to your dog!!!

Second, what ever diet you feed your dog, if your dog is healthly and is doing well on it don't change it - "If it isn't broken don't try and fix it"


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## datacan

:-[ who's offended... raise your paw


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## WillowyndRanch

obviously, I'm more of a "Prove the statement" Scientific type personality. I can find numerous individual and blogger/website claims of greatness in feeding Raw, but very, very little supporting scientific research validating the claims. In truth, what I discover in the science papers relating to it generally support the opposite of the purported benefits. As is typical then, the conspiracy theories abound that it's because the bad bad commercial feed companies bought off the research. That's just running a negative campaign against an opponent because there is no record to stand on as we see in our politics today as far as I'm concerned. 

I look for Veterinary and Science research studies and white papers on the subject, not blogs regurgitated. Discovery is always ongoing, and our knowledge changes as we are finding out with early spay/neuter that there are significant health implications. If I start seeing veterinary college studies supporting Raw over commercial feed I'd love to read them. As it is, I don't find that.
What is of extra interest is the Raw diet concerns are not only with the animal itself, but the people and environment around appear to be at increased risks of salmonella and e-coli poisoning. 

I found this paper quite interesting for any who care to consider perhaps that Raw is not the magic diet and there is actual scientific research and testing and regulation behind commercial feeds.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...e-diets-for-dogs-its-enough-to-make-you-barf/


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## mswhipple

Thanks, Ken! That article makes for very interesting and informative reading! Of course, with me, you are "singing to the choir". LOL I've routinely fed my dogs high quality commercial dog foods, and they've always lived long and healthy lives. So there you go! I do wish everyone would take the time to read this long but very good article.


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## born36

Thanks for the article Ken.

It is interesting that one of the main arguments against the Raw diet is that it only feeds the dogs raw meat. My pup gets prebalanced mixed raw meat with veggies. So he is not eating just raw meat and I agree with the article that in order for a dog to have a good diet it can not consist of just meat! Important to remember that Raw diet is not BARF diet. They are two different things. BARF is just bones and raw meat. Raw diet is a balanced diet with veg fruit and meat. 
As stated by hotmischief Natural Instinct in the UK provide fresh human grade raw meat prebalanced with veg and fruit frozen in 1kg tubs. So it is clean fresh meat. 
Is there a risk of Salmonella with feeding raw...yes. Is this risk any more than handling fresh meat before you cook it...no. I wash my hands, sorted!


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## loresonde

“The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence....

In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence.”

- Robert K. Wayne, Ph.D.

...and wolves hunt animals or scavenge. There is the DNA research(shortened significantly). Researching whether there is disease/virus in RAW meat proves nothing other than to prove that the meat tested was ill prepared and the same goes for kibble. To say there is any more risk in RAW meat than Kibble is mute, both have been know to carry virus. Just as Born36 has said, of course an all meat diet has its own set of problems. Looking at wolves, they will supplement their diet with fruit and vegetable matter, naturally it would be responsible to mimic that in a dog when feeding RAW. Which is why I will be supplementing my pup with a high quality kibble food.

"while at University of California at Davis Veterinary Teaching Hospital with a client and his dog the Veterinarians on staff advised that they do NOT recommend RAW as a canine diet plan. They see many, many cases of food poisoning and serious health complications related to RAW diet."

FYI, Hills is a major sponsor of that Universities research. Even Veterinarians have opinions, because they have a degree is not a reason for me to believe everything that they say to be 100% true. I would love to believe that everyone is always 100% honest, but unfortunately that is not the case and sometimes you have to find your own truth.

I Agree to Disagree.


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## texasred

I guess on this subject some of us are just going to have to agree to disagree. My vet disagrees with feeding raw two for reasons. One: salmonella, and yes she has treated dogs for it. Two: owners that get lazy on mixing in everything that the dogs needs, and they don't get the correct nutrition. Would she give me crap if I fed raw? No, she would tell me to watch for signs of food poisoning and don't be lazy.


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## WillowyndRanch

Warning - LOOONG....



loresonde said:


> “The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence....


All that indicates is that the Mitochondrial ancestry DNA was from one or more species of wolf (red, gray, etc). 
"Advances in molecular genetics have made it possible to amplify regions of mtDNA and do comparative analysis between different individuals or species. However, with the claim of Vila et al. (1997) that the separation of the dog from the wolf occurred over 100,000 years ago, many archaeologists, zoologists, biologists and even some molecular geneticists have viewed these controversial assertions with considerable kepticism. The most critical feature of Vila et al. hypothesis is that since wolves and
dogs differ by 12 substitutions in the control region of the mtDNA, that the date of ivergence can be calculated based on the premise that mutations occur at a fixed rate ften referred to as the “molecular clock”.

I find it interesting that people constantly comment on how different a Vizsla is from a GSP, yet then purport them to basically be wolves. 

"With respect to the phylogenetic relationships among the three dog breeds, Zajc nd colleagues (1997: 184) found based on microsatellite genetic distances, Greyhounds and German Shepherds were significantly further apart genetically which suggested that the two lineages had separated at an early stage of canine domestication. They conclude
that this finding is consistent with art artifacts dated from around 5000 BC which depicts two breeds of dogs that closely resembled the present-day German Shepherd and Greyhound."
Even amongst the varied breeds of domesticated dog there are genetic differences within a relatively short evolutionary timeline. Certainly these microsatellite distances are significantly more pronounce between a Pekinese and a Gray wolf. 



loresonde said:


> Researching whether there is disease/virus in RAW meat proves nothing other than to prove that the meat tested was ill prepared and the same goes for kibble. To say there is any more risk in RAW meat than Kibble is mute


 Hardly Moot. The primary Raw meat served is chicken. What have we all heard from day one about eating raw chicken? COOK it. WHY? Because it's known to carry Salmonella - even if it's the freshest human grade yard bird ever. Even IF the dog doesn't get sick, the salmonella "sheds" through feces and is transmittable to humans.

"The culture results from the food and stool samples are summarized in Table 1. All food and stool samples from the controls were negative for Salmonella spp. Eighty percent of the BARF-diet samples were positive for Salmonella spp.: S. Braenderup and S. Schwarzengrund were each cultured from 3 samples, and S. Hadar was cultured from 2 samples. Thirty percent of the dogs fed a BARF diet had positive stool cultures for Salmonella spp.: 2 samples yielded S. Schwarzengrund, and 1 was positive for S. Braenderup. One BARF-fed subject had S. Schwarzengrund cultured from both its food and its stool sample. One subject that had S. Schwarzengrund cultured from its food sample had S. Braenderup identified in its stool sample. Another dog with a negative food sample was shedding S. Schwarzengrund in its stool.

From the results of this limited study, a BARF diet is significantly more likely than a commercial diet to contain Salmonella spp. (P < 0.001), and BARF-fed dogs are more likely than commercially fed dogs to shed Salmonella spp. in their stools (P = 0.105). "

You'll note that of the tested Raw Feeds, 80% tested positive for foodborne pathogens - of the commercially prepared foods - 0%. In the Stool tested, 30% of the Raw diet stool tested positive for pathogens - 0% for the commercially prepared. How does one manage the pathogen dispersal of stool? It is extremely difficult.

Recently, the AVMA weighed in on RAW diet.
"Raw food diets are advocated by many natural dog breeders and owners, and their safety for pets is not what the AVMA is questioning. In fact, regarding raw food diets and pet health, *there is nearly no quantifiable * data either for or against. 

The AVMA's stance is wholly based on human health and the risks posed to humans who feed their pets a raw food diet. Pets fed raw food diets have been shown to contain E- coli and Salmonella both pathogenic to humans. Salmonella can cause illness in adult dogs, while E-coli is usually only pathogenic in puppies.

Not only does the AVMA object to the fact that handling raw food diets is unsafe for owners, but the *bacterial shedding in feces * which may contaminate the pet as well as the household creates an unmanageable risk.

Raw food diets are passionately advocated by some but the *science does not support * their superiority for pet or human health, and in fact, pets fed a *home made diet are far more likely to have dietary insufficiencies * than are pets fed a commercial diet.

I'll stick with the science. All the debate and still no one has provided a study of RAW that supports the claims, whether it's RAW fed to a wolf Or a dog...

I also agree to disagree. 'Nuff said from me on this.
Ken


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## R E McCraith

RAW (is this the wrestling channel ? LOL ) looks like it - growing up the garbage disposal had not been invented yet - my grandfather always mixed table scraps in with our pointers dry food ( no bones ) as a treat for PIKE he is given some cooked meat now and then with his dry food - it works - all 4 of my V's have loved lettuce! never leave a head out - mix it in now and then - if they had a good sushi bar for pups I'd take him there now and then - as in life BALANCE is the KEY and this forum brings this to our pups lives - keep up the great work!


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## Gus_of_MN

Well then..........this thread got out of hand... 
Im the furthest from knowing anything about this topic (ie i started this thread) but just from reading the titles of these articles and reading a few sentences from each of them, its hard to take the "studies" seriously.

Its hard to read articles that were biased and swayed right from the title of the article; "Raw Meat and Bone Diets for Dogs: It’s Enough to Make You BARF" 

Also.... " Feeding raw chicken to dogs is a concern, given the many bacterial pathogens (especially Salmonella spp.) that are *commonly* present in raw poultry" Commonly, really?



Thanks for the tips and advice, guess ill have to just be careful and see what happens


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## Gus_of_MN

Ps. Ive never seen a dog eating wheat out in a field or corn off the cob on a stalk...however ive seen plenty eating dead squirrels, deer and raccoons around the farm


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## datacan

I think Ken and REM know best! No confusion, here. 

After a while it will become clear if the dog has a choice it will choose cooked food first, raw second and kibble last... At least that's our experience 

Based on what we learned here we will cook for our V. It's easy.


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## born36

datacan said:


> I think Ken and REM know best! No confusion, here.
> 
> After a while it will become clear if the dog has a choice it will choose cooked food first, raw second and kibble last... At least that's our experience
> 
> Based on what we learned here we will cook for our V. It's easy.


Ah yes this is a great point! In fact my pup's list goes like this. 1. Pizza 2. Hamburgers 3. cooked food 4. raw 5. kibble last so yes pizza must be best for my pup.


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## born36

Also wanted to add on the back on some of the statements made. 

Salmonella here, Salmonella there, Salmonella everywhere!!! Quick run, quick hide!!! We should stop producing poultry before we are all killed due to its crazy spread!!!


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## texasred

Gus_of_MN said:


> Ps. Ive never seen a dog eating wheat out in a field or corn off the cob on a stalk...however ive seen plenty eating dead squirrels, deer and raccoons around the farm


Mine will roll on the road kill and eat grain out of the bird feeders.
They would also eat grapes off the vines if I would let them,and would love to have treats as their main meals. They also sit and drool for chocolate, but they don't get that either.

This is a forum and diffrent people will have different opinions.
Readers can take the information given freely, do their on research and come to their on conclusion.
I see no reason to be sarcastic because someone has a different view than mine.


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## born36

TexasRed said:


> Gus_of_MN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ps. Ive never seen a dog eating wheat out in a field or corn off the cob on a stalk...however ive seen plenty eating dead squirrels, deer and raccoons around the farm
> 
> 
> 
> Mine will roll on the road kill and eat grain out of the bird feeders.
> They would also eat grapes off the vines if I would let them,and would love to have treats as their main meals. They also sit and drool for chocolate, but they don't get that either.
> 
> This is a forum and diffrent people will have different opinions.
> Readers can take the information given freely, do their on research and come to their on conclusion.
> I see no reason to be sarcastic because someone has a different view than mine.
Click to expand...

TexasRed I know I am guilty of being sarcastic but here in the UK it is as natural as breathing really. If any offense has been caused by my comments it wasn't intended and I am sorry to all those that may have taken it that way. We just have a twisted sense of humor here. Or at least I do!


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## texasred

I wasn't offended but could see it turn into a slippery slope that doesn't end well. Some topics have started with sarcasm, then turned into personal attacks on members.
No apology needed.
Everyone needs a good sense of humor and Ive been told mine borderlines being on the sick side.


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## datacan

born36 said:


> datacan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Ken and REM know best! No confusion, here.
> 
> After a while it will become clear if the dog has a choice it will choose cooked food first, raw second and kibble last... At least that's our experience
> 
> Based on what we learned here we will cook for our V. It's easy.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes this is a great point! In fact my pup's list goes like this. 1. Pizza 2. Hamburgers 3. cooked food 4. raw 5. kibble last so yes pizza must be best for my pup.
Click to expand...

All these things contain too much salt... while they need some salt a slice of pizza contains too much. That's why cooking the meat separately only takes 5 min and can be topped with olive oil once it cools down (olive oil breaks down under heat and it should not be used in the frying pan). I knew this before but I was too lazy.


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## born36

datacan said:


> born36 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> datacan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Ken and REM know best! No confusion, here.
> 
> After a while it will become clear if the dog has a choice it will choose cooked food first, raw second and kibble last... At least that's our experience
> 
> Based on what we learned here we will cook for our V. It's easy.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes this is a great point! In fact my pup's list goes like this. 1. Pizza 2. Hamburgers 3. cooked food 4. raw 5. kibble last so yes pizza must be best for my pup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All these things contain too much salt... while they need some salt a slice of pizza contains too much. That's why cooking the meat separately only takes 5 min and can be topped with olive oil once it cools down (olive oil breaks down under heat and it should not be used in the frying pan). I knew this before but I was too lazy.
Click to expand...

Datacan I was being sarcastic I can only fed my pup duck or turkey. He has allergies to everything. Would never consider feeding him anything for the table like pizza.


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## hotmischief

So Datacan, do you fry your dogs meat with Olive Oil?? Oh bye the way just remember I am also from the UK (although educated at an American high school and University) - so similar sense of humour to Born36.

In the UK - chickens are vaccinated against salmonella, thanks to Edwina Curry of the John Major government.

I have found all the articles/post very fascinating. I am not convinced there is sufficient studies done on any of these diets to be conclusive, therefore I will sit on the fence and be undecided!!


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## Gus_of_MN

So have we come to a conclusion? To Raw or not to Raw...

I want to add a poll to this thread since there is so much chaos its hard to follow (but i dont know how to add a poll)


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## R E McCraith

Owners will always do what they want - only time I get to hold a long gun to somones head is in the field where I'd rather be!


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## threefsh

I think the only conclusion gained from this thread is that people regress to the maturity level of a 13 year old when the discussion is about raw diets. :

Sarcasm is not necessary and neither is posturing, so if you have nothing constructive to add I suggest you keep your mouth (or keyboard?) shut.

I can point y'all to some pretty snarky debate forums if you really want to sling insults back and forth with people. 

*Gus_of_MN:* My recommendation for you is that you do your own research outside of this forum. Our opinions are pretty evenly split on the subject and, as you can see, people get pretty riled up about raw vs. kibble. I hope this hasn't ruined your opinion of us... I swear, we're all much nicer in most other threads. ;D


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## Suliko

Wow, what a discussion! 

I too suggest to read pros and cons and then decide if raw diet is the right choice for you. I too sometimes feel like I'd like to start my pups on raw, but I am very afraid I will get lazy and the girls will be stuck with a one-sided diet after the first raw-feeding excitement is gone. But that's just me knowing that I can be a lazy person  

My co-worker and his wife have bred great danes and whippets for over 40 years. He always reminds me about the raw diet. They have always fed their dogs only with raw, and he swears their dogs rarely have any health issues  

Definitely something to think about!


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## Gus_of_MN

Suliko said:


> Wow, what a discussion!
> 
> I too suggest to read pros and cons and then decide if raw diet is the right choice for you. I too sometimes feel like I'd like to start my pups on raw, but I am very afraid I will get lazy and the girls will be stuck with a one-sided diet after the first raw-feeding excitement is gone. But that's just me knowing that I can be a lazy person
> 
> My co-worker and his wife have bred great danes and whippets for over 40 years. He always reminds me about the raw diet. They have always fed their dogs only with raw, and he swears their dogs rarely have any health issues
> 
> Definitely something to think about!



This is what i was looking for; some good ole real life stories behind a persons opinion. Thank you for intelligent input.

I love this site and all your great insight about a wide range of discussion topics so im not discouraged by the nonsense of this thread.


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## WillowyndRanch

Gus_of_MN said:


> Also.... " Feeding raw chicken to dogs is a concern, given the many bacterial pathogens (especially Salmonella spp.) that are *commonly* present in raw poultry" Commonly, really?


I understand that no studies I cite or articles to which I refer that discuss numerous other studies will be considered as factual or un-biased regardless of their references and backup and detail within the article - so I would suggest perhaps googling "incidence rate of salmonella in raw chicken". There are numerous sources from food safety organizations, governmental studies, studies on multiple continents and the like. In my reading, I would consider the rates common, perhaps others would not. 

I'm merely trying to inform as I spend considerable time researching and studying. One can certainly dismiss it if one chooses.


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## datacan

I blame the pig farms. The runoff contaminates everything. 

PS. I voted kibble there is no option to vote for cooked food, is there


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## born36

threefsh said:


> I think the only conclusion gained from this thread is that people regress to the maturity level of a 13 year old when the discussion is about raw diets. :
> 
> Sarcasm is not necessary and neither is posturing, so if you have nothing constructive to add I suggest you keep your mouth (or keyboard?) shut.
> 
> I can point y'all to some pretty snarky debate forums if you really want to sling insults back and forth with people.
> 
> *Gus_of_MN:* My recommendation for you is that you do your own research outside of this forum. Our opinions are pretty evenly split on the subject and, as you can see, people get pretty riled up about raw vs. kibble. I hope this hasn't ruined your opinion of us... I swear, we're all much nicer in most other threads. ;D


Threefsh

Why can't we have a sense of humor and be sarcastic???? No insults were slung in this debate as far as I can see. As important as it is that we don't take any posts personally it is also important that we remain human and share not just advice but our personalities. I would never aim to insult but a debate can and should take in all personalities as well as facts. 
This topic is a good one and in years to come I hope we learn more and more about it. We come together often to help new owners. I was one of those new owners at one point too. I believe though that we also come to the forum to meet the 'people' and not just the owners. Our personalities and sense of humors help to make this forum great and if all we do is turn it into a fact finding forum then it will quickly become a dry place where we can not be 'us'.


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## harrigab

let's keep it amiable please folks, I don't want to lock the thread but I will do if it gets out of hand


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## datacan

Well, I just got off the phone with Sam's vet. He states that here in Canada there is no law that states dog food should be free of salmonella. Currently only the US brands, by law, are to be free of the bug.
Canadians buying RAW or dog food made in Canada are expected to keep kibble out of the kitchen and hand washing is a must. Says so on the package. 

PS Born, Hot M ... I love British humor/sarcasm however, I don't understand it :-[ ...


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## adrino

I am by no means an expert but I bring up one thing why to go with kibble. 

When we decided to get a vizsla we also decided we will not go for a holiday without her/him. If you want to take your dog with you to any holiday I find the easiest to feed a dog is kibble. I think it's also the safest. How would you carry 2 weeks of raw food for your dog? How would you store it? 
The holidays we take are with lots of car journey and maybe no fridge at all.... It certainly does suit us to feed Elza kibble. And we don't have to change it for that period, we can just carry on with her every day diet. 

Just to add, with my first dog an English pointer, we fed her everything except raw. She ate kibbles, wet canned food, cooked chicken or pork, liver, vegetables. She never had a soft poo in her life as far as I remember. Still she died young at the age of 8 years. 

Everybody has different lifestyle, you need to adjust your dogs needs to that too.


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## Gus_of_MN

Traveling is my only hang up for feeding Raw, we are constantly traveling between relatives places or the cabin. The ease of kibble is about the only plus i really see in going dry dog food. 

For you Raw feeders, do you buy your meat at local stores/ butchers? Or use some of the online providers that were listed here?


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## leihan

Well the reading of this thread was very interesting! 
As we all agree we are different .
I feed Percy kibble,cooked meat, fish and veggies and a few times a month raw wings ribs liver etc he can be very picky i always get a good response with cooked second is raw then comes kibble. All you can do is try the one that feels right and if it doesn't work move on you will know when you've got it right.


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## loresonde

Gus_of_MN said:


> Traveling is my only hang up for feeding Raw, we are constantly traveling between relatives places or the cabin. The ease of kibble is about the only plus i really see in going dry dog food.
> 
> For you Raw feeders, do you buy your meat at local stores/ butchers? Or use some of the online providers that were listed here?


We got ours from a somewhat local supplier of RAW dog food in ground in 2lb chubs. We have not had time to search for quarters, backs, necks,... yet but will probably migrate that way after awhile. This first 60lbs will last while we get accustomed to the little guy and find local sources. We found the online sources to have alot of extras in them with very high price tags. We are also supplementing in separate meals with a high quality kibble food.

It is not cheap or convenient, but we will not feed our dog something that equates to fast food we care too much about the health of the dog. I guess we are sort of urbanized hippies, haha.


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## born36

Gus_of_MN said:


> Traveling is my only hang up for feeding Raw, we are constantly traveling between relatives places or the cabin. The ease of kibble is about the only plus i really see in going dry dog food.
> 
> For you Raw feeders, do you buy your meat at local stores/ butchers? Or use some of the online providers that were listed here?


In the UK we have natural instinct and they are great. The food comes in 1kg tubs frozen fresh and human grade. So to travel we two options. They deliver next day so we can have orders sent to our holiday place or pack up a cooler.


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## iwant2fish

Gus_of_MN said:


> Traveling is my only hang up for feeding Raw, we are constantly traveling between relatives places or the cabin. The ease of kibble is about the only plus i really see in going dry dog food.
> 
> For you Raw feeders, do you buy your meat at local stores/ butchers? Or use some of the online providers that were listed here?


We are raw feeders and usually make the food ourselves. We buy our meat (for us and the dogs) by the cow from the farmer so we know it's grass fed, antibiotic and steroid-free, etc. We occasionally get deer meat during hunting season from friends. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a good source for chicken. Yahoo has groups in different areas and the members have buying co-ops, but I haven't tried ordering from them yet. 

I have on occasion ordered from Big Dog Natural in New Jersey and recently tried Maverick pet foods as they are local to us in South Florida. I've had good luck with both, but see less eye discharge with what we make ourselves. 

As for the traveling, have you considered trying freeze dried food? I've never tried it, but have heard good things on other forums from folks that have. Good luck!


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## Gus_of_MN

I feel like this is a dumb question but nobody has answered it yet; Is store bought chicken/beef ok to feed? Just trying to figure out where to buy


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## iwant2fish

It's not a dumb question at all. I've got a few years of reading about this stuff and I'm still learning things. 

The issues I see with store brought meat are the same issues I have about feeding the stuff to the two-legged members of our household. I don't know if you've ever read up about what they do to our food supply, but it's pretty scary. Chicken can be injected with phosphates and sodium. The sodium content can be as much as 3 times as it is in chicken that's not. The label will say something like "this item has been injected with a x% of a flavor enhancing solution...". I try to never buy any chicken that has that. Then there are the steroids, growth hormones and antibiotics in all of the store bought meat. Organic is always better, but you can really make yourself nuts over-analyzing all of this. Then, of course, there's the cost of organics.

I would figure out an acceptable budget that you can comfortably spend, then buy accordingly. I started feeding raw after one of mine got cancer and was determined to provide organic everything. That got very costly very quickly and I made adjustments as needed.


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## Gus_of_MN

So what you're saying is that if you can get "over" all the crap put into the store bought meat, theres really no reason that it couldnt be fed to a dog. Am i sorta right there?


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## R E McCraith

Gus - still buy my meat from a custom butcher - just up the road from me - I am lazy - what works for your pup is always OK for me - always remember - it will never be the pups choice - just yours


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## iwant2fish

Gus_of_MN said:


> So what you're saying is that if you can get "over" all the crap put into the store bought meat, theres really no reason that it couldnt be fed to a dog. Am i sorta right there?


Wow. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. It's best to go organic, but I wouldn't lose my house to feed my dogs (or myself). Raw is better than kibble. Organic raw is even better, but not to the point that you go broke.


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## Gus_of_MN

Guess i was mistaken...My brother in law is a beef and chicken hobby farmer, ill nab some chickens from him...and go to the local butcher for the other stuff...thanks ya'll for all the great info


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