# Recall training



## kiminboonton

Hi all,

So I wanted to ask all of you about recall training. We have a wonderful 1 ½ year old female. She comes from a very good hunting line, but she was not trained to hunt, we mainly do recreational exercises with her, mainly hiking- off leash, nose training, agility, and she’s about to start therapy classes. Tesla is very good in class, she has great patience and focus, she listens very well to commands and direction. I am so proud of the work we have done so far with her, peole comment that she is the ideal ambassador for the breed when you train them and exercise them properly. 

However, we do have some challenges with quick recall. When we go hiking she is off leash and as you know she can get quite a distance in seconds. Being that she comes from a hunting line, I think her roaming range is probably a bit further than if we had a dog bred for ring work, correct? Also, I have to say she is an extremely confident girl, she isn’t as “velcro-y” as I see in other V’s. She does recall fairly well, but sometimes the distance is a bit scary, especially in the NEA when the probability of running into bears is highly probable. My husband and I worked on emergency recall and super treat her with the word “HERE” and she does pretty well. We have primarily used extinction and positive training techniques, but were not opposed to ecollars, but we just don’t have the gun dog training for this to work effectively. This is where we need help!

Yesterday we decided to do some ecollar training in a field we thought would work well, since there are limited distractions and she did incredibly well with the recalls. I would call her name, and hit vibrate and if she came I would reward, if she was slow with the recall I’d nick at a level that she could feel. She almost always came at the vibrate level, but you could tell she HATED it and it wasn’t a fun filled return like she does when she is returning on her own will. Anyway, everything went well until we came cross a small went for a small river, on the other side of the river was a golf course, Tesla swam to the other side of the golf course, and saw some geese. We called her to return, she looked right at us and ran, we nicked, bumped up to continuous and raised the level. Nothing. She ran and ran and ran and then she was out of range. It was so frightening, since there were roads up ahead. I finally had to wade across the river and when I saw her running back, not towards me, just to do another fly by, I hit it again, and she yelped. I caught her and leashed her and walked her back to the car pissed as can be. I think this was really bad timing on the last nick since she was heading my direction. I think I’ll need to do long line recall training with the ecollar for a while, especially at this location since she was so taken by those stupid geese, but I just don’t know how to improve her recall, especially under emergency circumstances like yesterday. Any suggestions?


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## texasred

Turning the collar up while shes on chase without having her trained to it is a good way to ruin a dog. I suggest you put the collar up until you either get someone to work with you or get a book on the proper way to train with it.


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## dmp

TR - how could that ruin a dog? Any advice specific to their issue?


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## kiminboonton

If you have any specific suggestions, books or training videos I'd like to use them. Unless your training your dog for gun training there are limited resources for ecollar training, most of my experience with trainers are pretty opposed to ecollars, so I try not to discuss it with them, so knowing that there are alot of great Vizsla owners that have great experience here, I'd really like to hear what I should have done in this case and how you trained your dog with recall, especailly for emergency recall, with our ithout Ecollars. 
Thanks!
Kim


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## threefsh

I wrote a blog post on this the other day. Our Riley is at 100% recall now using this method. She started stalking/hunting a flock of pigeons last week and a quick "Riley come!" had her doing an instant 180 and running back to me.

http://ltlor.blogspot.com/2012/04/recal-training.html

An e-collar is NOT necessary for recall if you are willing to put in the extra time and effort. It takes a lot of practice, but the results are worth it!


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## datacan

Very easily! It can ruin a dog because the stimulation and especially the VIBE feature is not a natural translations of the leash 

The ecollar has to be viewed as an extension of the leash. Dogs can get spooked easily and associate the stimulation with strange things. How the dog associates the vibe or stimulation can create the problem.

Turning the ecollar on without having done leash pressure work is useless and dangerous. 
The difference is that the leash pressure has to be applied fist and the dog must obey the leash to such an extent that holding the leash with 2 fingers is enough. At that point and only at that point can the ecollar be introduced at the lowest levels. Leash pressure + continuous stimulation until the dog enters the kennel. 
Kennel should be the fist command, because it is the most difficult to understand. The dog must understand that just like leash pressure the pressure form stimulation is controlled by the DOG not the owner. Complying with the command turns off the pressure on the leash as well as the ecollar.

For the dog it is a complicated process that should take weeks to accomplish.


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## dmp

Why don't we just invent a way to communicate directly with the dog...like dolphins, right? Or chimps?


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## datacan

You may just become famous one day, DMP


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## datacan

BTW, dogs are the only domesticated animals that take pointers from humans.

Experiments were done with finger pointing and dogs consistently followed the direction given by finger pointing.

Chimps failed miserably this experiment.


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## dmp

I dunno, data - that work the other way around? I'm pretty sure I've seen one of my cats give ME the finger...


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## kiminboonton

She does understand leash pressure, not perfectly, but I use a martingale and a short leash and she knows side (heel) and I can change direction, slow, stop, back up and she follows me, when shes focused, shes does make me focus on her placement when we walk so we both need full focus on the leash and her not being ahead of me. It's hard work, but that can be accomplished. 
We have had great results with doing exactly what ThreeFSH has been doing without a collar, and with a collar. Shes not very treat motivated, but when she knows shes working she does the recalls quite well. We wanted to introdcue the colalr for those times, like yesterday when she isn't responding. We did the excercises you showed in the video with the collar, but really didn't need to becuase she responded right away without the need to nick. 
Datacan- Good point about the vibe, I'll try without that. I DO NOT want to ruin her with this collar, and I see that she is a bit sensitive to it, and it just isn't feeling right, so thats why I'm here for the pros and cons and lessons you can share.


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## Oquirrh the V

I've not tried the ecollar, but Oquirrh's recall wasn't great. I work on his recall in my front yard before we go for our off-leash walks/hikes. I make sure he remembers "come" and I always have an extra special treat for him. Once I get to our hiking/walking place. I remind him that I have yummy treats and I do short recalls with him on leash. Once I have him off-leash I try not to do the recall too much, so that when I actually need him to come back he will. Oquirrh isn't very food motivated, so I've been using cooked hot dogs, which he seems to like. Make sure the treat is really yummy smelling (to your pup). I tried using some other treats, he would sniff it as he walked by and would keep walking. Good luck.


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## Mischa

IMO it is important to train recall before ever using an e-collar.

Recall is saying "come back to the best person in the world!" 
If the dog doesn't respond, it should NEVER be punished, with or without an e-collar. (I believe strongly in punishing bad behaviour, but never for recall)

Recall is about the only thing I train with 100% positive reinforcement. If you punish them when you catch up, why would they come back?

You should use a check cord, and treats. When they come back after you call, they get a treat. If the dog doesn't respond, you reel them in, and give a treat. All "come/here" commands should have a happy tone with encouragement. 

After the recall is established, then you can overlay the command using the tone or vibrate feature on an e-collar. Never the shock IMO. That would be punishing, and the dog won't always want to come back to get scolded or a smack.

It's tough to deal with in an emergency situation, so the best thing to do whenever possible, is train before those situations arise. 
The best thing to do if the dog isn't listening, is head in the opposite direction. Chasing them makes it a game.

You can practice at home by hiding, and yelling out the dogs name, and "come".
If you make it fun for them, they will want to come back every time.

I hope this helps.
-Dennis


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## texasred

What I meant by ruining the dog.
A dog that shuts down as soon as the ecollar is placed on him. Its to scared to make a mistake, so it does nothing but stick to its owners leg or even high tails it back to the truck given the opportunity. This is from to much pressure being placed on the dog. People that are heavy handed can create this problem without an ecollar.
The dog has to know what is being asked of them and how to turn the pressure off. When introducing the collar to a dog I never turn it on for the first two weeks. I place the collar on the dog (turned off) then we go for our normal run or walk. This way the dog associates the collar with something good and no matter what happens I can't be tempted to use it.
My young dogs are used to running on 30 foot check cords and if they don't recall on a command I can enforce it with the cord. If your dog isn't accustom to a check cord, you will have to give him time to get used to it before you can over lap an ecollar with it.
Next when my dog is in a relaxed state (not sleeping) I can find what his number is on the collar. I will start at the lowest number with a nick. I'm watching for the slightest movement. It can be as small as an ear twitch.
I start working them in a place that they are use to with low distractions. To call them to me its three commands at once. They are out in front of me walking on the check cord. To recall its Here, slight tug on the cord and a nick. This is something we work on for more than one day and they have to have perfect recall on the check cord before the ecollar can be used without it. We do move to areas with more distractions and there will be times when the collar will need to be turned up some due the distractions, but remember to turn it back down to the original setting after the recall.

Did your collar come with a DVD and a book. I aways hate giving out ecollar information.. I'm always worried that I might leave out some important detail or you will have a situation come up that we didn't go over. Even if your dog is not going to be used for hunting there are upland trainers that you can pay to help you collar condition (not collar break) your dog.


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## kiminboonton

Thanks for the additional details Texas Red. I think were going to go back to the checkcoard for training sessions. Your breakdown of the Ecollar is very descriptive and helpful. Once or if we go down that road again, I'll keep you posted.


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## texasred

This should help some on recall.
Make your dog come all the way to you when recalled. You can give them praise, treat or a drink of water. Then have a command to release them. I release mine with their name and a tap on the side. This helps stop the dog that wants to come half way to you or does the fly bys.

My daughter has what I call a pocket rocket vizsla. She is in college so her pup still lives with me. Treats mean nothing to her if she is hunting, and if she is outside she's hunting. Not a bad thing, these dogs were bred to hunt. This was my daughters first pup and I would catch her trying to recall her pup at the worst moments. The pup would be 75 feet from her with a 30 foot check cord on chasing ducks on the creek. My daughter would be yelling LUCY LUCY LUCY!! I would tell her to stop calling the pup. One we don't have a LUCY LUCY LUCY command and Two she had no way to enforce it. Instead I would tell he to walk the opposite way with me. The ducks would fly off and Lucy would realize we were leaving and start coming toward us. When she was coming toward us it was the perfect time to give her the Lucy Here command. If she tried to fly by the check cord was easily caught. Then she could be praised and released.


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