# puppy heath problems PLease help



## oliver (Jul 27, 2014)

Hi guys, my 4month old v, Ollie, was sick today for the second time one 2 months. Same symptoms occurred both times. Symptoms I notice was hyperactivity, and head bobbing. Also starting walking around very uncoordinated like. Was dripping a little bit of urine uncontrollably. Two activities I have done with him on both occurrences of symptoms. 
1. I took him to the same swimming spot in a local running creek. I guess it possible the creek was contaminated but I'm not sure. If the water was toxic. Would he symptoms match up? Again he wasn't vomiting or diarrhea.
2. He took Nexgaurd flee and tick medicine. The vet called poison control and no similar symptoms were reported with that medicine. The manufacture was closed so we couldn't talk to them.

The first time my vet thought he got into medicine some how so they gave him an IV of fluids and a sedative and he was perfectly fine when he woke up. The second time the symptoms occurred I had to take him to the ER because my regular vet was closed. She said the symptoms were like he got into medicine of some kind, which is impossible in my house as I have 0 Meds in my house. The ER vet wanted to keep him over night and do 2 grand worth of tests on him which I was not comfortable with before consulting my regular vet. So I had the vet give him an IV of fluids and he seem fine after that.

Having a very tough time on diagnosing the problem. And I am trying to make informed decisions before spending the 1500$ the vet quoted me on.. and that's just for the tests they want to do. 
The ER vet thinks it could be a liver shunt. I really don't know what it is. It seems like it has to do with something he's ingesting, because after he fluids he is fine. I feed him science diet large puppy and blue buffalo wet food and he's fine wih that. Could it be an allergy? Would allergies make him hyperactive, mouthy, and have that weird head bob (vet calls it the attention bob).

This is my first Vizsla and not sure if this has happened to anyone else before. Any advice or anything would be great! I love my little guy and will shovel out the money but maybe someone else had similar experience and could lend some advices as to the diagnosis.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

So sorry Ollie is having this trouble! No matter what anyone else has told you, I would suspect the flea and tick "medicine", which is really a form of poison. Some of the labels actually say "use caution with dogs prone to seizures when administering this product". The head bobbing and poor coordination could be partial seizures. I don't mean to frighten you, though.

Also, I can't advise you about how much money you're willing to spend at the vet's office. If Ollie is a little better by now, one thing is for sure... I would never give him that Nexguard again. Keep him eating and drinking lots of water, give him moderate exercise, and hope he can get that stuff out of his system quickly. Poor Ollie! Good luck to you, and please keep us posted. 

_p.s. I never treat for fleas unless I actually see fleas, and then with extreme caution. That flea stuff is poison._

I'd like to add that there is nothing wrong with treating a flea problem the old-fashioned way... by bathing your dog with a flea shampoo. Lather him up, and leave the suds on for a few minutes. (Follow the directions on the bottle.) Then rinse, rinse, rinse thoroughly. That's probably the least invasive way to deal with it, and you only need to do it when you see fleas on him. I just don't see the need to have chemicals that are strong enough to kill fleas introduced into your dog's bloodstream, coursing through his veins, and reaching every tissue in his body, including his brain.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Also... I just checked on the NexGard website, and it says, "Use with caution in dogs with a history of seizures." While Ollie might not actually have epilepsy, it is known to be one of the major health concerns of the Vizsla breed, and symptomatic epilepsy can be caused by _exposure to toxins_. You can do a Google search using the search terms "Vizsla and epilepsy".


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## oliver (Jul 27, 2014)

Thanks for your reply!! I will look into this.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I would stop the Nexgaurd, and see if the symptoms ever reoccur. It just maybe he can't handle some of the ingredients.
Next if he does need future testing check the prices at other vets.
The emergence vets are great when others are closed, but normally charge 2-3 times a higher rate than the average vet.

You might consider using a food grade Diatomaceous Earth (DE) to kill fleas.


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## oliver (Jul 27, 2014)

Thanks. I will defiantly stop the nexgaurd. Its just tough because he's so young and I'm trying to rule out these long term things for my 4month pup whos cost me 500$ on 2 vet visits possibly because of the drug (nexgaurd) that the vet has been giving me and telling me to administer. Thanks for your input. I will see my regular vet tomorrow and let her hear my frustration.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

I understand how frustrated you must feel, oliver! Your pup is so young. Remember, I am not a Vet, and what I said was only an opinion. However, I do feel strongly about it. I feel the same way about humans and drugs. The least invasive way is always the better choice. You should avoid taking anything unless it's absolutely necessary. The drug companies are in it for the money, after all, because they have stockholders to please. 

You have to keep a positive outlook right now. Ollie's going to be okay. He's young and strong, and hopefully, he can bounce right back, with no long term problems. 

I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars on my dogs over the years, and so for me, the money is not the issue. It's the overall health and well being of the dog. By all means, please keep us posted... and I'd especially like to know how Ollie's doing, not just now, but six months from now.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

It may also help if you keep a daily diary on anything Ollie eats, drinks, or comes into contact with, exercise, and outings.

Your vet has probably sold Nexgard to hundreds of her clients without them having side effects, but that in no way means Ollie didn't have a bad reaction to it.


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

In a sense you are lucky to be learning now that what your vet says isn't necessarily in the best interest of the health of your dog. There is a major issue in vet care where profit margins, product pushing, etc.... get in the way of understanding holistic health care and prioritizing the well being of every animal.

My advice is seek out a holistic vet who can help give you some tips/products that can help Ollie detoxify from the Nexguard as fast as possible.


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

We would never use any flea and tick medicine to prevent fleas. They are pretty toxic substances. Although many are administered by application to the fur, they work by being absorbed through the skin into the blood stream.

As a breed we are lucky in that it is easy to check Vizlas for ticks and fleas because of their short fur. Lyra is just over two and we've had to remove two ticks and she's never had fleas. If she got fleas then we might have to treat but we would never give anything pro-actively.


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

Lyra said:


> ... Although many are administered by application to the fur, they work by being absorbed through the skin into the blood stream.


I don't think so. According to the Frontline website, it is transported by the oils in the skin. 



> ... Lyra is just over two and we've had to remove two ticks ...


You must be fortunate enough to live where there aren't many ticks. We use Frontline, as needed. This season we knew it was needed when we took 5 attached ticks off Daisy in 1 day. This was after checking her for ticks - they can be elusive. Especially the nymphs of deer ticks, which are REALLY small.

I would prefer to not use Frontline, but to us it is the better of 2 evils. The other evil being Lyme disease and/or ticks that satiate themselves, drop off, and crawl around your house. It is disgusting to find a fully engorged tick the size of a pea (really!) crawling on the floor. My amazement that they can actually move after swelling to that size does not temper my disgust. Add the idea that there could be ones like that in your bed and Frontline does not seem all that bad.

Bob


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

Neem oil can be sprayed on the dog before going outside to ward off pests.

Frontline, et al are poison and definitely circulate through the blood stream. Revolution is in the blood stream.... Advantix is formulated with the same ingredients as sprayed on pesticides. Not something I'd put on my dogs skin or in its body. There's no way something can sit in the oils of the skin for a month and not cross into other membranes. It would dissipate if the dog swam or was out in rain, if it merely sat in the skin.

That's how these things work. The tick still has an opportunity to bite, the chemicals just kill them off within 12 hours. Dogs can still get lyme using Frontline, etc, the risk is just minimized.


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

organicthoughts said:


> ...
> Frontline, et al are poison and definitely circulate through the blood stream. ... There's no way something can sit in the oils of the skin for a month and not cross into other membranes.


You can say it does cross and I say it doesn't and we can both be right. It's a matter of degree. I won't argue that absolutely none crosses, but that whatever amount it is, is insignificant.

National Pesticide Information Center (http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/fiptech.pdf):
"A spot-on treatment study in dogs and cats detected C-fipronil concentrated in the sebaceous glands, epithelial layers surrounding the hairs, and exposed part of the hair shaft 2 months after treatment, suggesting the passive diffusion of fipronil in the sebum covering hair and skin." No mention of blood or organs.

Tina Wismer, DVM Veterinary Poison Information Specialist (http://www.vspn.org/Library/misc/VSPN_M01289.htm)
"Fipronil is not systemically absorbed. (Weil, 1997) Fipronil is detected on the hair shafts but is never detected in the dermis and adipose tissue, suggesting that it is absorbed and accumulated in the sebaceous glands, from which it is slowly released via follicular ducts."

Do you have any references that show absorption into the blood?



> It would dissipate if the dog swam or was out in rain, if it merely sat in the skin.


It is very soluble in oil and much less so in water. If it's dissolved in the sebum, why would it come out of that solution to dissolve in water? Our dogs swim & are out in the rain, yet are protected afterward (no embedded ticks when ticks are in season).



> That's how these things work. The tick still has an opportunity to bite, the chemicals just kill them off within 12 hours. Dogs can still get lyme using Frontline, etc, the risk is just minimized.


It takes much longer than that for the Lyme disease to be transmitted.

CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/index.html):
"In most cases, the tick must be attached for 36-48 hours or more before the Lyme disease bacterium can be transmitted."


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

Perhaps frontline has insignificant effects in your perception, some of the other spot on treatments like revolution or the once a month pills all pass the blood barrier. Any product that worms, passes the blood barrier and the pesticide lingers for a month or more. That would be far from insignificant in my mind.

And in regards to getting Lyme. I'm not 100% sure on the tick species that frontline adresses, other products don't work on all species of Lyme carrying ticks. Revolution only works on the dog tick, not the deer tick so that leaves the animal still capable of getting tick related illness from untargeted species while using a spot on. None of these products can offer 100% guaranteed protection. As I said they minimize the risk, but cannot offer fully guaranteed protection. 

You have to assess the risk and base your decisions on it.

I'd be very hesitant using any chemical product on an 8 week old puppy no matter how much the companies and vets tell you it's safe. And that's what this thread is about - the 8 week old pup.


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

organicthoughts said:


> Perhaps frontline has insignificant effects in your perception, some of the other spot on treatments like revolution or the once a month pills all pass the blood barrier. Any product that worms, passes the blood barrier and the pesticide lingers for a month or more. That would be far from insignificant in my mind.
> 
> And in regards to getting Lyme. I'm not 100% sure on the tick species that frontline adresses, other products don't work on all species of Lyme carrying ticks. Revolution only works on the dog tick, not the deer tick so that leaves the animal still capable of getting tick related illness from untargeted species while using a spot on. None of these products can offer 100% guaranteed protection. As I said they minimize the risk, but cannot offer fully guaranteed protection.
> 
> ...


I have only posted about Frontline or its principle ingredient, fipronil. There is no literature that I have seen that shows any passage of it to the blood stream. That is insignificant to me.

In the east, Lyme is only carried by the deer tick. Which Frontline is effective against. No product is "... 100% guaranteed protection" against anything.

This thread was started about an 8 week old puppy, taking an oral tick med. It diverted when Lyra said about topical products that "... they work by being absorbed through the skin into the blood stream." Which is wrong and how I got started on Frontline.

Bob


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

Nexguard is absorbed into the blood stream and I question any advice saying it is safe for an 8 week old puppy taking any pesticide treatment.

http://www.1800petmeds.com/NexGard-prod10356.html

Revolution is also a very common topical that absorbs into the bloodstream. Any topical or pill that acts also as a worming agent crosses the blood barrier.

No one in this thread is focusing on frontline but you bob. The pup took nexguard and as I said other spot on treatments do cross the blood barrier and can be dangerous. Frontline may not cross the blood barrier but I still wouldn't give it to an 8 week old pup suffering from potential seizures.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

If you'd like to keep discussing the merits or detriments of Frontline and other tick/flea products, please start another thread. Thanks


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