# Yet another picky puppy question



## Boudicca (Mar 17, 2016)

Hi! Here goes my first post!

I have a 5.5 month-old Vizsla pup named Bailey. Bailey was sent home from the breeder at 11 weeks with a bag of Canidae Holistic all life stages food, and that's what he's been eating ever since. We have chickens too so about three times a week he'll get an egg or two but other than that he doesn't get anything else except the occasional treat or whatever he snags off the floor when I'm cooking.

For about a week now I've noticed he doesn't seem to be eating as much (he gets 1 to 1 1/2 cups of dry food 3 three times a day. At first he seemed to hold off on eating his breakfast but would usually get around to it within an hours, but now the last couple days he's not touching his food until dinnertime. Today, I came home and discovered he hadn't eaten at all. I put his food back out and he just wasn't interested. He's acting fine, still energetic, peeing and pooping like normal. I talked to the vet and will be bringing him in tomorrow to make sure he's okay, and he suggested adding some boiled chicken to his food or perhaps wet food to entice him.

I'm thawing out some chicken for dinner now actually, but in the meantime I cracked an egg over his dry food to see if he'd eat it and he snarfed it down. So did I somehow ruin his food preferences by tossing him eggs a couple times a week? How should I address this?

Also, what are your feelings on all stages food vs. puppy food? Should he really be on puppy food? His vet said it was fine but I'd love to hear opinions on this.


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## cuddlebuglove (Apr 27, 2014)

What did the Vet say? Hope Bailey isn't ill.Please advise.


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## Boudicca (Mar 17, 2016)

cuddlebuglove said:


> What did the Vet say? Hope Bailey isn't ill.Please advise.


It's in my original post. His appt is tomorrow and he said to add some boiled chicken to his food or some wet food to entice him.


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## cuddlebuglove (Apr 27, 2014)

Hoping for all the best! Please let us know the latest-thanks for responding.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Just wanted to welcome you to the forums, Boudicca (and Bailey)!

I don't think you should worry that you might have ruined his food preferences by offering him an egg with his meal. Your Vet already gave you an answer, really. There is nothing wrong with food enticements, as long as you use some common sense. Stick with high-quality protein, and don't make it the bulk of the meal. Just a little will do the trick. There are lots of picky dogs out there. By changing things around a little, you give him some variety in his life, too. For example, if you had some fish for your own dinner, save a couple of bites for Bailey. Cut the fish up into very small pieces and stir into his dinner with a little warm water. He will thank you for it. You wouldn't want to eat the same thing twice a day, every day of your life, would you?


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

At 5.5 months, Bailey doesn't need to necessarily eat 3x/day, and she might be cutting back. Typically, an adult V eats once a day, and to get there, you taper it off by eliminating meals and just adding more to the existing feeding times. So in a way, she might be doing that herself.

It's OK to give extra proteins like chix or egg..try to keep it to no more than 10%...but be aware that the result might be a picky (and overweight) dog. I'm unfamiliar with the food you're feeding but typically if it's an "All life stage" food, it's Ok for an almost 6 month old, I personally like grain free, FWIW.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Deep-chested breeds, like the Vizsla, are actually better off eating two (or even three) times a day, according to my Vet (a very well-respected guy).

The deep-chested breeds are more prone to bloat, which can kill. So the whole point of feeding smaller meals is this: You don't want the dog's stomach to ever be overly filled. That would make it more likely to "flip over". Also, you shouldn't allow your dog to engage in vigorous play right after eating. All of this is to avoid the possibility of bloat. I take it seriously because two of my friends have lost dogs to this condition. That's why I brought it up in conversation with my Vet.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

mswhipple said:


> Deep-chested breeds, like the Vizsla, are actually better off eating two (or even three) times a day, according to my Vet (a very well-respected guy).
> 
> The deep-chested breeds are more prone to bloat, which can kill.


Couldn't agree more! Since V's are such picky eaters, getting them to eat 3x a day as adult dogs might be nearly impossible (although if your V is up for it - go for it!) but I definitely think it's safer to feed 2x a day vs. 1x a day (even if it takes some extra effort to get them to eat in the morning). And no running or playing before or after eating.

Bailey is probably at an age where feeding 3x a day isn't necessary - try dropping it to 2x a day and see how that goes over. And if you get in the habit of adding tasty things to his meals... he will definitely come to expect it. My advice is to feed things like eggs apart from meals (not because he's begging for your dinner, though!) or as "dessert" - otherwise they will become fussy eaters just to see what you'll use to entice them with next. It might start with just an added egg, but then he'll turn up his nose to the eggs, too (trust me, I've been down that road, ha!).


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

And I don't really have strong opinions on puppy food vs. all life stages food. Personally, I use a quality all life stages food. With some larger breeds (Weimaraners, Great Danes, etc.) the recommendation is to NOT feed a puppy food, as it's so nutrient rich that it can cause them to grow too fast and lead to health problems. Since V's are a medium breed though, I don't think that is a concern with them. All life stages food also makes it easier when you have more than one dog as you can feed them all the same kibble.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

The issue of how many feedings is a little complex, with most of that complexity driven by feeding kibble.

Ideally dogs should not be digesting food all day long. It reduces performance and increases the risks of bloat if they run after eating (or eat just after running) so the sheer practicality/impracticality of 3x a day feeding is low with high-energy dogs like ours. Scientific studies show performance dogs do better when fasted.

Once a day feedings for mature dogs is ideal. The problem with this is again the kibble-based diet. Dogs that gorge increase odds of GVD (bloat). Foods that swell in the belly (kibble plus water) increase risk. So you have trade-offs either way. Multiple feedings has serious downsides, as does a single feeding.

In contrast feeding a single meal of a raw (meat, organ, and bone) based diet virtually eliminates the bloat risk and provides sustained energy via fat-burning (as opposed to the energy spikes that come with carb burning). Many studies have shown that dogs burning fats have dramatically higher stamina and aerobic capacity (measured as VO2 Max scores) than dogs who burn carbohydrates.

With a natural balanced raw diet one maximizes all the advantages of increased energy, reduced odds of bloat, and the need to constantly have the dog digesting food due to multiple meals (which is not a positive condition).

People might disagree on which bandaid they put on the problem of feeding cereal-based meals to dogs (one feeding or several) but it misses the larger problem IMO.

Bill


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## Boudicca (Mar 17, 2016)

Hey everyone, I'm so sorry i forgot to reply back to this!

So shortly after I posted this I picked up some canned Nutros Puppy food and mixed a 1/3 of a can of that with his dry food, and dropped his feedings down to 2x a day. This seemed to go well and his appetite made a comeback. However, about a week after I noticed his finickiness regarding food he started peeing in the house while walking around, which really sucked because I was thrilled that he was finally housebroken for all of a week. 

I did some google-doctoring and suspected he had a UTI. I took a pee sample to the vet and it came back positive for a UTI and calcium oxalate (maybe this is from the egg shells coupled with our hard water), so the vet put him on antibiotics and an SO diet. He's supposed to be fed the Royal Canine Urinary tract stuff for 1 month and he is 10 days into his antibiotics. However, since he's switched to the new UTI food, he acts like he never eats. He eats 4 cups of food a day, divided between 2 meals, and he has reverted back to that thing he did when he was 3-4 months old when he would relentlessly stalk the kitchen while making meals and stealing food when he has the opportunity. 

He just always acts like he's hungry, and he'll do this 5 minutes after he eats or 5 hours, it doesn't matter. It's pretty obnoxious. So I'm wondering, does he need to eat more or is this urinary tract food just not nutritious enough for him? Or is this just another round of teenage dog douchebaggery?

Oh and here is a pic of my little guy. He makes me crazy but he is so sweet.


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

At 5.5 months, he's not a teenager....and most of what you hear about that is over exaggerated anyways.

I've never heard if a vet changing food just b/c of a UTI. Let me guess: He sells the food, right?

Your guy could be enthusiastic about it for 2 reasons: 1) It's new and novel and they like novelty. and 2) It's mostly cereal (read the ingredients) which has a different glycemic index making him crave it more.

I'd suggest calling the vet back and having him explain why the food change and if it's Ok to go back to.start a higher quality food.


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## cuddlebuglove (Apr 27, 2014)

Perhaps Bill can answer these questions. What prescribed kibble would you recommend in this case other than Royal Canin? Do you think that the Vet is just pushing a product?

Most important of all- how would this caregiver (after the puppy gets well) start as a beginner converting her puppy to a raw food diet. Does she/he join a group? Where do you get all of the required food items?

If one has a playful Vizsla, how do you keep them relaxed enough to rest before and after meals to avoid bloat?

Thanks again and please keep us (Gingerling) apprised of any news.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Boudicca said:


> Hey everyone, I'm so sorry i forgot to reply back to this!
> 
> So shortly after I posted this I picked up some canned Nutros Puppy food and mixed a 1/3 of a can of that with his dry food, and dropped his feedings down to 2x a day. This seemed to go well and his appetite made a comeback. However, about a week after I noticed his finickiness regarding food he started peeing in the house while walking around, which really sucked because I was thrilled that he was finally housebroken for all of a week.
> 
> ...


I looked up Royal Canin Urinary formula—finding exactly what I expected to find after reading the dog seems ravenous—and that is there is a paltry 18% Protein and 13% Fat content in the food. So the dog is being starved for proper nutrition, and attempting to compensate by over eating and acting hungry.

If you are going to kindle try to find a formula in the 30%+ Protein and 20%+ Fat ranges. Also be aware that many manufactures use items like corn gluten meal or pea flour to inflate protein levels with incomplete plant proteins.

Dogs feel satisfied, and their nutritional needs are met, when they eat sufficient amounts of animal-based proteins and fats. There is no need for a dog to consume any carbohydrates, yet most of the calories in something like Royal Canin Urinary formula are from carbohydrates. The top three ingredients are brewers rice, corn, and wheat. This is very disturbing. Equally disturbing is that there are no sources of muscle meat in the formula. No chicken (save chicken fat), no beef, no lamb, nothing.

The dog is being starved for nutrition with this formula.

Bill


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## cuddlebuglove (Apr 27, 2014)

Sounds horrid!  If the Vet is bonded to Royal Canin, will Gingerling need a new vet? Gingerling what will you DO? Hoping the puppy gets well soon.

Thanks Bill. I am going to move my question into a food section. Thanks again .


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Any evidence of bladder stones?

Bill


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## Boudicca (Mar 17, 2016)

Spy said:


> Any evidence of bladder stones?
> 
> Bill


Bill thanks for your previous response, I'm taking it to heart and paying attention. Would the calcium oxalate in his urine be evidence of bladder stones?


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Boudicca said:


> Spy said:
> 
> 
> > Any evidence of bladder stones?
> ...


My understanding is that elevated calcium oxalate in urine is indicative of the potential for develping full-blown bladder stones. False positives are common is the urine is refridgerated over 30 minutes, so I'd check and have a re-test done with fresh urine before making bigs changes or developing concerns.

I would assume (but may be wrong) the dietary change is based on this potential; however, it seems like the prescription (Royal Canin Urinary formula)—although once common—runs exactly country to current thinking on how to deal with the potential for forming stones.

It was one believed that reducing protein (and thereby reducing dietary phosphorus), and raising the carbohydrate in the diet would reduce calcium oxalate formation. This is the "logic" behind the Royal Canin formula. But studies have shown this is the opposite of what actually happens. Higher carb diets are associated with CaOx formation. Dogs fed higher amounts of protein, fat, calcium, phosphorus, and other mineral in a moist-food with lower calories minimize the risks.

Royal Canin (and your vet) have it backwards from the evidence I've seen. I would seek another opinion and/or get clarification from you current vet as to his or her thinking.

Here is a link to one study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11843112

The above study is for canned foods. The same reasoning (favoring higher protein higher fat nutritious food that is high in moisture, high in minerals, and low in carbohydrates) supports choosing more optimal raw diet.

Many holistically oriented vets advocate for a raw diet if CaOx levels are high, which may not be the case due to a possible false-positive, and virtually all are against a highly processed, low protein, low fat, high carbohydrate diet for being the root of the problem, not "the cure."

Getting plenty of hydation both through food (a raw meal has a lot of moisture inherently) and through drinking plenty of fresh water is vital. Many seem to believe increased water is the best way to keep concentrations of CaOx low, which reduces odds of stone formation. Giving the dog frequent opportunities to urinate is also mentioned as helpful.

Some risk factors include breed specific risks (not Vs), being over-weight and being sedentary.

I am not a veteranarian, and claim no special expertise in this area. I would, however, be very skeptical about feeding the Royal Canin formula to your Vizsla based on the evidence I've read. It seems like exactly the opposite of what you V needs. I'd really consider doing more research yourself, and/or seeing a different vet for a re-test (using fresh urine) and getting a second opinion on your option if the test results indicate a real potential problem.

Did the vet do any tests, or simple things like palpating the bladder to check for stones?

Did he or she explain the reason for the diet change?

I'd attempt to seek out a little more information.

All the best,

Bill


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

Spy said:


> My understanding is that elevated calcium oxalate in urine is indicative of the potential for developing full-blown bladder stones. False positives are common is the urine is refrigerated over 30 minutes, so I'd check and have a re-test done with fresh urine before making big changes or developing concerns.
> 
> I am not a veterinarian, and claim no special expertise in this area. I would, however, be very skeptical about feeding the Royal Canin formula to your Vizsla based on the evidence I've read. It seems like exactly the opposite of what you V needs. I'd really consider doing more research yourself, and/or seeing a different vet for a re-test (using fresh urine) and getting a second opinion on your option if the test results indicate a real potential problem.
> 
> ...


Our weim had similar bladder issues as a pup until she was probably 5 months old. Our vet also wanted to put her on a prescription diet, but I just kind of refused, haha. They did mention that there are a lot of false positives with the urine tests, so I wasn't too concerned. We ended up doing a second test (collecting urine in the vet parking lot with a soup ladle and bringing it in straight away) but I believe that also came up positive. We treated her for the UTI (until we got confirmation that was cleared up) and I ignored their advice to change her diet temporarily. 

I am also not a vet and I can't say I really researched their thinking behind wanting to change her diet all that much. But she's almost 2 years old now and no side effects so far! I would discuss with your vet why/if the diet change is really absolutely necessary.


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## Boudicca (Mar 17, 2016)

Spy said:


> Boudicca said:
> 
> 
> > Spy said:
> ...


The vet didn't do any tests aside from the urine. Bailey had just been to the vet about 3 weeks prior so they okayed me just bringing in a urine sample. The SO diet is supposed to lower the ph of his urine and to reduce the calcium oxalate (or something like that).


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## Boudicca (Mar 17, 2016)

And he's been on this new diet and abx for nearly two weeks now and he is still dribbling pee around the house a couple times a day. This is pretty frustrating.


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## Boudicca (Mar 17, 2016)

...and I'm sorry for the serial posting but I'm researching raw diets right now and I'm finding this website pretty helpful in the way of getting started.

http://rawfeddogs.org/rawguide.html


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

Boudicca said:


> And he's been on this new diet and abx for nearly two weeks now and he is still dribbling pee around the house a couple times a day. This is pretty frustrating.


It did take quite a while to completely cure our weim's UTIs. She had several during a span of about 2 months. Sometimes symptoms reoccurred before she even finished her abx, which worried me. We did a urine culture eventually to determine if we were using the right abx and it turned out we were... so it just took time and lots of rounds of meds. We also started giving her a small bit of yogurt as a probiotic. Their immune systems just aren't always great as pups!


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## Boudicca (Mar 17, 2016)

dextersmom said:


> Boudicca said:
> 
> 
> > And he's been on this new diet and abx for nearly two weeks now and he is still dribbling pee around the house a couple times a day. This is pretty frustrating.
> ...


Oh wow. I guess we'll see. We're doing another urine culture at the end of this month. Maybe I'll pick up some yogurt on the way home from work. How much did you give her?


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

Just a small spoonful of plain, unsweetened yogurt with both her meals. 

What abx are you using? We started with Clavamox, which seemed to clear it up but it came back... I think she wasn't on it long enough. Then regular amox, which she didn't even finish before she was squatting constantly again. The urine culture still indicated amox, so we tried a much longer run of Clavamox and that eventually kicked it.


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## Boudicca (Mar 17, 2016)

dextersmom said:


> Just a small spoonful of plain, unsweetened yogurt with both her meals.
> 
> What abx are you using? We started with Clavamox, which seemed to clear it up but it came back... I think she wasn't on it long enough. Then regular amox, which she didn't even finish before she was squatting constantly again. The urine culture still indicated amox, so we tried a much longer run of Clavamox and that eventually kicked it.


He's on amox.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

You might see if you can try Clavamox if it continues to persist... according to our vet (and our experience, too) something about the added ingredient tends to work better for clearing up UTI's.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Boudicca said:


> ...and I'm sorry for the serial posting but I'm researching raw diets right now and I'm finding this website pretty helpful in the way of getting started.
> 
> http://rawfeddogs.org/rawguide.html


It is pretty good information over-all; however, there are three points with which I'd take issue.

1) This guide mentions freezing salmon prior to serving raw, which IMO is an inadequate answer. Salmon from the Pacific Northwest can carry a pathogen that causes a disease that is treatable if recognized early and treated, but is fatal otherwise. There is conflicting information (with most of it leaning against the idea that freezing salmon kills the pathogen), so I personally would not risk feeding raw salmon from the PNW. 

2) The guide also mentions the need to freeze pork, which is not necessary with pork from the human supply chain. Trichinosis is still a problem with wild swine (and bear, and racoon) none of which should be fed raw, but raw unfrozen pork is fine.

3) The article mentions beef heart as a nutritious organ, which is true in the big picture, it's just that heart counts as "meat" in PMR feeding and not as an "organ." While heart is an organ physiologically, PMR limits organs to "secreting" organs like liver, kidney, spleen/melts, sweetbreads (pancreas and thymus glans), gonads, and brains.

Heart is a great menu item, and tends to be one of the most inexpensive cuts of beef, but it should not count towards "organ" ratios in PMR, but towards "meat." I'm sure the artical uthor would not disagree, the wording could just cause confusion.

Bill


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