# E Collar



## MilesMom

So we broke down and got Miles an E collar. :-\

We tried long lead/ cord training, back to training classes, treat training.... he was an angel for the trainer, an angel on the lead and as soon as he is completely off the lead he's back to his old ways. He doesn't run away, he just dances around us and doesn't want to go home. He's gotten to the point where he makes me nervous though bc his confidence is growing and he's exploring more on trails, and now with snake season coming I need him to come back when called. We also have a few hiking vacations coming back and in new areas I want to feel confident he is will be safe and come back when I tell him to. 

So the collar is in the mail on it's way. I hope it goes well, going to read the training manual tonight.


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## MilesMom

Thanks! 

We bought the collar from gundogsupply.


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## dmak

Make sure to follow the directions on conditioning. When used properly, you'll be amazed at the results. The first I day I started "zapping" (for lack of better term) him it was as though the light bulb went off in his head. After about 10 minutes of use he instantly started performing the request commands. I used a beep then zap. He quickly graduated to just needing the beep. We then started using the beep to issue commands from a distance while hunting; one beep stop, two beep flush, three beep return. Ive only zapped checked him probably 15 times the whole time we used the e collar. We actually just started using the collar again to help with his hard mouthing during retrievals and have seen great results


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## redbirddog

when you get your collar, put it on your wrist after it is charged up and start at 0.5 setting and hit the button. Then 1.0, 1.5, 2.0 and up the scale. This way you understand what your dog feels. You might need someone else to click the button. Our dog collar goes up to 5.0 in .5 steps and I can easily stand 3.5. After that it gets my attention. I only use 5.0 on Bailey for the come to Jesus moments. Everything else is around 3.5. Chloe responds at 1.0. Each dog is different.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/04/e-collars-are-not-meant-to-inflict-pain.html

RBD


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## MilesMom

Thanks everyone! A bit nervous to try it out but this feedback is good.


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## Coya

MilesMom, let us know how it goes. We have been considering getting Coya an E collar for some time now, but never have taken the step. She sounds similar to Miles...listens when she wants to...which unfortunately for us isn't every time WE want her too! Good luck!


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## texasred

For the first week I don't even turn the collar on. I put it on the dog every time we go to do something good. The dog associates the collar with fun/good times. It also helps keep them from being collar smart. While your dog is learning the collar means good things are fixing to happen, you can be reading up and watching videos on the correct use of it.
All three of my Vs love their ecollars. Its yipping, tail waggin, can't hardly keep their butt on the floor when I get out the collars.


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## lilyloo

Would an e collar work for jumping up/enforcing the off command? Ruby has a real problem with jumping up on people. I've tried so many things to stop it and am starting to feel hopeless! 

She also likes to jump up and see what's on the kitchen counters....


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## zigzag

lilyloo said:


> Would an e collar work for jumping up/enforcing the off command? Ruby has a real problem with jumping up on people. I've tried so many things to stop it and am starting to feel hopeless!
> 
> She also likes to jump up and see what's on the kitchen counters....


Yes and No. I really think of the Ecollar as a long leash a way to enforce your command from a distance. If the dog is misbehaveing within your reach and control you should be able to enforce what you want through physical training. But Yes Ecollars can be used to prevent dogs from jumping on pepole or chasing after pepole in the park or wherever you may not have physical control of the dog.


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## lyra

If you decide to use an ecollar do you use it on all outings or do you just use it for a period to correct behaviour? 

Has anybody ever been given any grief from dog owners for using one?


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## texasred

Lyra said:


> If you decide to use an ecollar do you use it on all outings or do you just use it for a period to correct behaviour?
> 
> Has anybody ever been given any grief from dog owners for using one?


Mine use it on all off leash running at first, meaning months of it.
I don't want them to become collar smart. They can figure out, collar means I have to come. No collar I don't if you transition to early.

I quit caring about what other people think along time ago.


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## tech_dog

lilyloo said:


> Would an e collar work for jumping up/enforcing the off command? Ruby has a real problem with jumping up on people. I've tried so many things to stop it and am starting to feel hopeless!


I used an ecollar for that exact purpose on a non-vizsla breed. I'd tried everything but the otherwise very well behaved dog would still get excited and jump on guests at the first open opportunity, even though she knew she wasn't supposed to. I put the collar on, set it at the lowest setting, and gave her a zap when she jumped on the next guest that came over. I probably zapped her a total of 3-4 times on 3-4 jump attempts and she wore the collar for a couple of days at best. 6 years later she still doesn't jump up on guests and has a lot more friends. 

I kind of hated to do it, but in retrospect I have no doubt that it was well worth it.


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## Ehartwig

This may have been discussed elsewhere so pardon my interruption. What age do you think is appropriate to start ecollar training? I have a 5 month old male who respons very well to 'come' and other basic commands.


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## texasred

Mine start collar conditioning anywhere between 6 and 9 months old. They let me know when its time, by not coming to me when called. They have reached a maturity level where they want to venture father out more on their own. They are more independent. It a teenage thing. Its a "Hey I see you. I know you called me, but Im not ready to come to you yet."


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## lilyloo

TexasRed said:


> Mine start collar conditioning anywhere between 6 and 9 months old. They let me know when its time, by not coming to me when called. They have reached a maturity level where they want to venture father out more on their own. They are more independent. It a teenage thing. Its a "Hey I see you. I know you called me, but Im not ready to come to you yet."


This happened with me a few weeks ago. Ruby was out of our fenced area of the yard and wouldn't come to us. Very scary, as we live very close to a busy road. I never thought I'd be one to collar train, but the more I learn about it it doesn't at all fall into the cruelty category that I once thought it did.


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## dmak

My pup loves his e collar. Whenever it comes out, he knows its adventure time. I've only seen positive results. Not a single negative one


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## Henry

Lilyloo,

In regards to jumping up on counters and people. My Lucy (6 months) was terrible...I had a trainer come and he put 20 or so pennies in a coke can, put duct tape over the opening. When you catch her jumping up on counters or people...throw the can at the dogs feet. My Lucy hates it....no longer jumps on the counters. You can set them up by leaving a treat and then...BAM! Hope it works!!

Getting an e-collar in a few weeks. Have a trainer who is a V owner as well and he says he has never met a more stubborn strong V in his life. Soft Dog she is not!


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## Rudy

45 YEARS FOR OTHERS AND ME

HAND COMMANDS AND WHISTLES AND A HORSE LUNGE ROPE HAS WORKED SWEET 

ANYONE NEEDS A CUSTOM COLLAR AND SHOCKS FEEL FREE ;D

I TRAVEL AND MY NECK A TAD UNDER 25'' TIGHT :-*

ITS SO MUCH FUN GIVING MORE THEN YOU GET AND WHY WOULD ANYONE OTHER THEN SPEEDING UP THE PROCESSED THAT IS EARNED TRUST WITH YOU PUP

F UP THE CENTRAL NERVES SYSTEMS LAZY TO ME 

AND NO DISRESPECT WHO USE THEM

THERE LIKE SHOPPING AT WALLY WORLD FAT $SSES GALORE AND 1 DOLLAR PLEASE FOR CHINA JUNK :

AND ANYONE WHATS TO CUSTOM FIT ONE ONE ME

GIVE IT A GO

FRANKENSWEDE YOU EARNED SOME FUN ;D
;D


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## Rudy

WHITE"" PLEASE

OR RED I AM A BLEEDER LATE"" LOL


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## MilesMom

Thanks! Miles is a pretty good boy on leash. We run with a hands free leash and he stays next to me, and walking goes pretty well unless in a very exciting new place. Collar set to come Monday, we have been reading up on introductions.


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## MilesMom

This is honestly a huge reason we have held off this long (as well as the high price tag ). I am already getting negative comments about the decision to get him an E collar. I am just going to have to get a thicker skin and keep telling myself that it's what is best for Miles and will keep him safe on the trail.


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## dmak

Hers a link to a previous thread about e collars. It talks more about used/recommended models of e collars for anyone interested in going down this route of training/reinforcement. Kauzy is the first dog I've had where I've used an e collar for training, and I almost kick myself for waiting so long to her one. It sped up our field training 

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php?topic=5997.0


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## R E McCraith

Tex said it - when is the right time to get a E-collar - only after the pup understands basic commands - you can never correct what they do not understand - what I like in a E-collar - at least1/2 mile range - multiple stimulation levels - a beep or buzz option - rechargeable collar receiver - option to add more pups if crazy enough to get another V LOL - like the tritronics sportdog - meets all of the above - pro trainers need more options - transmitter and receiver water tight ( never a option ) - get the best you can that fits your needs - you invest time and money in the pup - do not go cheap on what one day may save it's life !!!!!!!!!!


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## MilesMom

We got the Sport Dog 425, I think it's new this year. Talked to Steve from Gun Dog Supply a few times and we decided this was a good option, and we can add a second collar if needed when we get "Chase" in July.


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## MilesMom

Just got the collar delivered to my office! Watching the DVD tonight and hopefully we will have success!


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## MilesMom

We have just ended our first week with the e collar. It went well, all conditioning this week. We put on the collar before all hikes and fun outings and now he wags his tail when we get the collar out. We have been working basic command with verbal praise as reward and plan to start e collar on leash basic command this weekend. It's a lot of work but it's working!!!


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## mlwindc

Thanks for your updates, I hope things continue to go smoothly. Wilson is almost six months and I know an e collar is in his future, so I am following along eagerly!


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## dmak

Milesmom - I too am anxious to hear how miles accepts the new form of reinforcement. If he'd anything like my pup, you'll see pretty quick and effective results.


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## R E McCraith

Milesmom - the E collar just a tool in training - for the new ones thinking about getting one - at 6-8 mo - when you start - before that it is voice and hand signals - introduce the whistle - rules of engagement ! if you are frustrated by the pups actions - count to ten then decide what correction is appropriate ( if a matter of safety do it ) this is why you get a E collar - the pup knows the commands before the E -collar is introduced - my rule of thumb - starting with the pup - voice and hand signals - they can do no wrong - check cord to keep them in range - whistle to train them to that - I want a E collar that has a beep or vibrate function - that is the first warning - only the owner can train - not the E collar - just a thought !!!!!!!!!


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## MilesMom

Yes, our E collar has tone and vibrate as well as 10 levels of intensity setting. 

He is 15 months and knows all of his basic commands. We are changing our training techniques so we went back to basic command before turning on the E collar, but he doesn't seem to be confused by the change. We did 2, 10 minute sessions with him yesterday and his tail was wagging the entire time which is what we want. We have read a lot about not training when upset as the collar is not supposed to be a negative thing. We are happy that he wags his tail when he sees his collar. 

His recall is 100% on leash so we will now start conditioning him with the collar on with basic command, then do collar on with 50 ft check cord, in prob in a month or 2 he can try off lead with the E collar.


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## Vida

It's good to hear you're going about it the right way. 
I was wondering if you have been letting your dog run free up to now? Or do you leave a long line on him?


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## MilesMom

We do let him run off leash on certain trails. On trails that are designated off leash and have wide pathways so we can watch for snakes, we allow it. We also let him go at the beach. He's great if we are running because he doesn't like to be more than about 50ft away from us, so we mostly stays with us or runs in circles around us. When we walk or hike he has more time to get into trouble because our pace is slower. 

We have a lot of trails here that are not legally off leash but people won't give you a hard time if your dog is well mannered. But... that being said, we need Miles to have great recall on these trails to come back if there is a leashed dog ahead (as it may not be friendly or could get intimidated by an approaching off leash dog,) and people who don't expect an off leash dog. Also, rattle snakes are coming out so we want him to come back immediately if we see one. We don't feel comfortable letting him go on these trails yet and would love to because off leash burns more energy, we all have more fun, and it's better for his joints. Hence, the decision for the E collar.


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## R E McCraith

Milesmom - no doubt you would do it right - just a POINT from me !!! 45 years ago - wish I had a E-collar to train with - for those that LOVE their V - it is a great tool !!! nothing more - nothing less - the E-collar will never be an answer for putting in the time to BOND 007 with your PUP - you know it & so do I - just POINTING out to those that do not know - only as good as you make it - LOL - I loVe gundog supply !!!!!!!!! one of the few places you can talk to the owner and Steve could careless if he sells a product - want's what is best for the pup - VVorks for me !!!!!!!!


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## Vida

I can tell you want the best for your doggy and it sounds like you live in a place that has some serious hazards- snakes OMG!
Good luck!


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## MilesMom

We LOVE gun dog supply!!! They are so helpful and so nice!!! We agree with your comments about not just slapping an E collar on a dog and making him fear it. We have observed this first hand and that was why we resisted for so long because we wrongly assumed that was how they were used. After doing more research and seeing how they really work and how you should introduce the dog to it, we see they really are a training/ communication device and not an act of punishment.


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## R E McCraith

POINT ON - LOL


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## Ozkar

MilesMom said:


> We have just ended our first week with the e collar. It went well, all conditioning this week. We put on the collar before all hikes and fun outings and now he wags his tail when we get the collar out. We have been working basic command with verbal praise as reward and plan to start e collar on leash basic command this weekend. _*It's a lot of work but it's working!!!*_


Really? A lot of work? I am amazed sometimes at what people consider a lot of work. I don't even consider training without an E-collar as a lot of work. I guess that's why I don't use one! And yes..... I detest the things  I reckon your all a bunch of lazy arses!!   For anyone new reading this thread.... there are other ways and it can be done without one!!! Just saying is all..........


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## MilesMom

I see 15 patients a day, run 50 miles a week on top of regular yoga, exercise Miles 3 hours a day, and train him daily... lazy not the word I would use to describe myself. Just trying to keep my pup safe.


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## Ozkar

MilesMom said:


> I see 15 patients a day, run 50 miles a week on top of regular yoga, exercise Miles 3 hours a day, and train him daily... lazy not the word I would use to describe myself. Just trying to keep my pup safe.


Each to their own....... just putting an alternative way of thinking out there. Me, I'd cut back to 13 patients (or is that patience??  ) cut down to 25 miles, skip Yoga and spend the time on my pup. Just my way.


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## mswhipple

I hear you, Ozkar. It's true that everyone has to do what they think is right for their dog. To each their own... But as far as using an e-collar goes, I'm afraid I just couldn't do it.


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## R E McCraith

Oz -really - hunt tests - field trials - NO E-collars - that is a fact of life with a gun dog - you are purist - but to young to know - for me - voice - hand signals - wistle - that is how I train - the E-collar just an addition - at 6-9 mo - the problem is to many people think this is a cure all - not me or mswp - would you take your bow into the bush with out a arrow ? are you or me getting to serious - hope not - do I like E-collars - YES -should everyone have one - NO - if it makes your life to easy with a a 'V' you are LAZY !!!!!!!!!!


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## MilesMom

He is well cared for. We never leave him on weeknights, if I go to yoga he's with my husband or a neighbor. He accompanies me for some of my running, and we never leave him more than 4 hours. He's known in our neighborhood as "Baby Miles, the most spoiled pup." My career is not flexible at this point in life and competitive running keeps me sane (and patient ). Everyone may have their own reasons for doing the E collar, but "Laziness" is not ours. He's a top priority in our life and any free moment out of work or training is spent with him.


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## Vida

I am soo lazy... 
always have been, always will. ;D
I never run , I don't do yoga. 
But I still don't use an e- collar


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## River

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927

Banned in Wales! Fine and possible imprisonment!


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## zigzag

These Threads drive me nutz ??? Use the right tool for the job and the dog! Use it the right way and nobody gets hurt. Now I just gotta find a sponsor for TEVCO 8)


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## Ozkar

River said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927
> 
> Banned in Wales! Fine and possible imprisonment!


While not an advocate of them, I feel that this law is a step too far. Regardless of my opinions of them, people should have a choice of if to shock there dog or not. Just like people should have a choice if they wish to beat there dog with a bat. Not my chosen method, but who am I to judge............  

Zigzag, the right tool to me, is patience, repetition and consistency. My dogs point, Hold, Flush, Retrieve, Track, Heel, Push Up and Leave all without the need for one. I'm no genius dog trainer, so it makes me wonder how bad a trainer people are who use them!!!   God I love firing all your E-collar fans up........it's like shooting fish in a barrel...................................


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## dmak

In my experience there is little to no difference between using a check chord and an e collar, both apply reinforcing stimulation to the neck. With a check chord, you must be tethered to the pup with a 5 10 30 50 foot chord, e collar gives me up to a quarter mile with no physical tether. When you yank on that check cord you put stress and strain on the neck and throat region to gain compliance, with an e collar you apply an electrical stimulation no sharper than a static charge to the neck and throat. Where's the difference? Same tool, different technology. Until you have used an e collar, do you really have a leg to stand on in an argument discussing it's effectiveness? Fell free to continue to use your abacus and slide rule, I'be decided to be lazy and use a calculator


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## Ozkar

Yeah I do have a leg to stand on, as I have never debated there effectiveness........... Just the need as I believe I can achieve what I need to without one. All my posts reflect this. I also believe people should have a choice. It's not my way, but it doesn't mean they should be banned. It's a personal choice, just not mine and this is a forum where we offer our opinions. I have a right to offer mine, just as you Pro-Ecollar people do as well. 

In a thread which might be read by someone deciding if to use one or not, surely I have as much right to say no, as you guys do to say yes????? 

That barrel is either getting narrower and shallower, or I've got a bigger gun.................


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## mswhipple

Perhaps another factor we need to consider is the sensitivity of the individual dog. You said, dmak, that an e collar's electrical stimulation is no sharper than a static charge to the neck and throat. Well, for my dog, Willie, that is unacceptable. When the air is dry during the winter and Willie receives a random shock from static electricity in the air, he yelps loudly, comes to lean against me, and trembles. So I could not intentionally subject him to that. Other dogs might not be so bothered by it, but mine is.


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## dmak

A question posed to those of you against the use of e collars. Why are you against the use of an e collar? Looking for fundamental reasoning

A question to those of you using e collars. Why and how did you decide to start using them? Again, looking for fundamental reasoning.

I am looking for a healthy and professional discussion. not looking to stir up a hornets nest, for as Oz has stated, we are all entitled to our opinions and we are all blessed with the myriad of resources available to help train our pups. "Keep it classy San Diego" (Ron Burgundy)

Milesmom - I'm not trying to hi jack your thread, so let me know if you feel I'm doing so. I feel this e collar thread has been great and should be one that many will and should use when deciding if the e collar is right for them.


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## Vida

Personally I don't want to have anything hurt my doggies :'(
I just love them too much :-*
I'm not bothered if they behave badly  
The west country ( Uk) is practically dog paradise,no snakes,leash laws,or much traffic! 8)
I'm too mean to spend money on anything I don't need :-X
I'm too lazy to keep putting the collar on and off!
My dawgs don't wear collars coz it messes with their hair ;D
I want them to look pretty :-* those ugly big battery packs and receivers round their necks are soo last season ;D


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## dmak

*Re: Re: E Collar*



Vida said:


> I want them to look pretty :-* those ugly big battery packs and receivers round their necks are soo last season ;D


Hehe


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## lyra

In all the discussion of e collars, it seems to be people either use them all the time or never use them. 

Has anybody used them on a temporary basis as a training or correction tool? I.e. Stopped using them once they had achieved a specific objective?


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## dmak

*Re: Re: E Collar*



Lyra said:


> In all the discussion of e collars, it seems to be people either use them all the time or never use them.
> 
> Has anybody used them on a temporary basis as a training or correction tool? I.e. Stopped using them once they had achieved a specific objective?


That's us. We used it hard for 6-8 months. He finally graduated from it and no longer needs it. Every once in a while we get it out, usually when training new methods and hunting technique. 

I do think we will be getting a Garmin Astro GPS collar pretty soon. When he starts tracking he goes to a different world to follow his nose.


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## texasred

Ecollars give my dogs more freedom at a younger age. I live right outside of Houston and a field is going to have at least one busy road next to it, if not more. Safety has to be number one priority. A hunting dog without recall is not an option.
Next these dogs were bred to have high prey drive, run fields and hunt. They were not meant to be attached to your hip for years.
Its okay for some to have dogs that behave badly.
Mine would be cut out of so many outing, if they did.


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## MilesMom

dmak said:


> A question posed to those of you against the use of e collars. Why are you against the use of an e collar? Looking for fundamental reasoning
> 
> A question to those of you using e collars. Why and how did you decide to start using them? Again, looking for fundamental reasoning.
> 
> I am looking for a healthy and professional discussion. not looking to stir up a hornets nest, for as Oz has stated, we are all entitled to our opinions and we are all blessed with the myriad of resources available to help train our pups. "Keep it classy San Diego" (Ron Burgundy)
> 
> Milesmom - I'm not trying to hi jack your thread, so let me know if you feel I'm doing so. I feel this e collar thread has been great and should be one that many will and should use when deciding if the e collar is right for them.


Not at all!!! Kinda glad the thread has switched focus


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## R E McCraith

Mmom - why do I use the E-collar -PIKE trains and hunts in heavy cover - he got his at 9mo - before that it was voice - hand signals - whistle - pinch collar & check cord - the E-collar never went on till he understood all of his commands - if he is in line of sight & looking at me I expect him to obey hand signals - out of site the whistle should control him -not big on voice commands in the field - mostly use them at home - after3 1/2 years the beep mode gets his attention - if he ignores that (not that often ) he gets a correction - the lowest level works - it is just another training tool for me to use - never a form of punishment - for PIKE a loud NO !!! is all that is needed - that hurts his feelings & with the soft hearted V that is all it takes - like the E-collar or not it is just a training tool that like the others must be used with respect to the feelings of your pup - if being used as a punishment you should not have a puppy - as in life hit me and I will hit you back - there is a big difference between training and punishing your pup - punishment is not a option !!!!!!


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## tech_dog

Lyra said:


> Has anybody used them on a temporary basis as a training or correction tool? I.e. Stopped using them once they had achieved a specific objective?


That's exactly what I did. I had a dog that just wouldn't stop jumping up on guests. She knew she wasn't supposed to but would get excited and the moment she thought she had an opportunity she'd go for it. I bought an ecollar to fix that specific problem. 

With the collar set at the lowest setting, I zapped her the next two time a guest came over and she jumped up. I used the collar a total of three times before it fixed this behavioral problem. 7 years later she's still got her manners and waits for people to come up and greet her. I have no doubt she's better off, as she gets more positive attention from guests and three small corrections did the work that many months of traditional renforcement failed to do. She wore the collar for a total of four days and I've never used it since.

Note that this wasn't a Vizsla, and every dog and situation is different. I think there's a lot of instinct that goes into dog training, and this is where my instinct sent me.


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## Henry

I use one. I love it. I've held my hand on the collar at the level and higher that I use on my dog (who i love very much)...it's a very mild sensation. 

Listen...I would love if I could quit my job or scale back and train my dog without the use of the e-collar....but I don't have the time. Should I not own a V? I take my dog off leash everyday...let her run...take her to the beach...in the woods, explore rain or shine.
to each his own. It works for me.


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## hobbsy1010

Whistle has worked for centuries.....
Why replace something when it's not broken?


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## mswhipple

Yeah, have you ever watched those shows on TV where the guy is directing his Border Collie, way out there, on how he wants the dog to herd the sheep? 
He uses..... a whistle.


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## dmak

*Re: Re: E Collar*



hobbsy1010 said:


> Whistle has worked for centuries.....
> Why replace something when it's not broken?


A horse and buggy has worked for centuries. Why buy a car?


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## texasred

Ive watched my nephew run and train Master retrievers.
He can have that dog run, and sit on a dime 300 yards out in any direction. That's on land and through water. You will see him do it only using a whistle and hand signals. That dog previously spent plenty of hours with a ecollar on, and was condition to follow every one of those commands.


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## Ozkar

*Re: Re: E Collar*



mswhipple said:


> Yeah, have you ever watched those shows on TV where the guy is directing his Border Collie, way out there, on how he wants the dog to herd the sheep?
> He uses..... a whistle.


Ok, to answer some questions. Why am I against them? Tone or vibe no issue. Shock, no way. I have too much respect for a dog than to subject it to discomfort or pain not of it's own doing in order for it to comply to a trivial in reality, human wish. I will never be convinced that the dog feels no pain or discomfort. If it were not law, mine would never wear collars of any type, nor be placed on leads. I often offleash walk near busy roads, confident my pups will be right by my side.

For those saying it keeps there dog safe, so does training using conventional methods. I also have to deal with roads, traffic, barbed wire fences, snakes and 1080 fox poison. So it is just as important that I have instant action on some commands. However, if I can achieve this without causing discomfort to my dogs through the use of a shock collar. I want my dogs to do things because they want to please me, not because they will receive punishment if they don't. 

I give dogs more credit than most and I will argue till I'm black and blue that the dog doesn't associate you putting the collar on and then them receiving a shock for non compliance. They are not mentally handicapped. Read or re-read Merles door........

To me it is a tool for those living in a fast paced world needing results now. Me, I would just prefer to spend more training time prior to putting them in a position of danger. I didn't hunt immediately with my dogs, it took a year of training to get the to where I felt confident in them working with me. 

If I can achieve this without a shock collar, then I don't see why others cannot. Zsa Zsa is headstrong and used to break point. My solution was to delay hunting until she got it. Sure I could have reverted to an ecollar and achieved the same thing, but spending time in training sat much better on my heart.

Training any dog is about repetition and consistency. More so for a Vizsla. 

Having said all that, it's your choice and I'm not here to judge you..............no matter how wrong you are..............  My little digs stir up a lot of emotional responses from ecollar users. Perhaps that's your consciences whispering in your ear?


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## hobbsy1010

When was the last time your whistle 'broke down' on you?

Have you ever had to replace the batteries on your whistle?

Simple things very rarely get replaced! 

What next Ipad in the field giving your dog commands and GPS directions? 
Battery pack included of course......


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## MilesMom

Well, I don't want to start a huge debate every week as we progress Miles' training with his new collar and I know some people are interested in how it's going... so if anyone wants updates just PM me.


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## redbirddog

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/10/hunting-with-bailey-using-gps-tracker.html

Now when you want to get a cool electronic gadget for your dog, a GPS collar is the way to go.

The 21st century is so cool. 8)

RBD


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## hobbsy1010

The 21st century maybe cool and the way to go but I'm sure this ancient breed and its breeders would be spinning in their graves if they could see how basic commands and instructions to such an intelligent animal were being given in this day and age!

Maybe it's time I moved on and moved out of my cave!!


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## lyra

MilesMom said:


> Well, I don't want to start a huge debate every week as we progress Miles' training with his new collar and I know some people are interested in how it's going... so if anyone wants updates just PM me.


I think you should post on the forum. I'm sure a lot of people would like to hear how you are getting on and learn from your experiences.

If you make it clear in your first post that it isn't a thread to discuss the pros and cons of e collars (maybe with a link to this thread) then I'm sure people would respect that...even Ozkar (You ain't the only one who can yank people's chains Ozkar )


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## redbirddog

hobbsy1010,



> Maybe it's time I moved on and moved out of my cave!!


Only if your knuckles clear the ground. :


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## lyra

hobbsy1010 said:


> Maybe it's time I moved on and moved out of my cave!!


I wouldn't go that far but maybe a bit of decking at the entrance would look nice ;D


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## luv2laugh

I agree with Lyra. I would love to get those updates on the e-collar, but I wish they could be on a public thread. I will probably never get Oso an e-collar, but am curious about the process. I feel like there are a lot of threads for the yays and nays, but not so many on the experience, if you do choose to go the route of the e-collar.

I would hope that members with opposing positions could let these updates take place. It gets a bit exhausting for these to turn into debates each time.

Maybe we need a separate thread for the "Ongoing E-Collar Debate - ready.. set... go..."


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## hobbsy1010

Knuckles may drag a bit....

But no batteries required with my pack 

Carry on shocking and I'll carry on whistling!

Oh and decking.... So last ice age!!!!


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## texasred

MilesMom
If you have any questions along the way, Im sure any of the owners that use ecollars will be more than happy to answer your questions. Me included. So don't be afraid to send us a pm.

I can take some of the heat off by starting a Force Fetch thread. ;D


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## MilesMom

Ok. I will try once for the update and see how it goes. We plan to do our first session tonight with the collar active since he has been in the "conditioning" phase for 9 days now and wags his tail when he sees the collar. We think he's ready for Step 2 which will be leashed commands with active collar.


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## Ozkar

Firstly I would like to make an apology to Milesmum. ignorant me didn't read the first post in this thread, jumped in halfway through when a comment was made and thought it was another discussion about the where's and why for's of e-collars, not realising that this is a thread about her Journey with one. As such, I would appreciate it if all my posts in this thread could be deleted, or at least ignored. I sincerely didn't mean to rain on your parade MM. 

MM, please keep us posted, me included. As although it's not my thing, I AM INTERESTED in your's and pups journey. 

Once again, please forgive me, I never intended to dampen the spirit of the thread.


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## Ozkar

Data...plenty of other threads I can offer opinions on the yeahs and neys of Ecollars. This thread is really for MM to map out progress and ask for guidance with it, so I'll leave well enough alone.


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## WillowyndRanch

hobbsy1010 said:


> When was the last time your whistle 'broke down' on you?


Last week. The pea got stuck with a buildup of saliva and dirt... Didn't work worth a durn and couldn't clear it.

A month or so ago, lanyard caught while saddling up, snapped off, fell to ground and horse crushed it.

I'm hard on whistles.

I am very interested MilesMom in your experience, and I think with the exception of a very vocal three or four members that have never used one yet love to argue about cordless collars, most on this forum are also interested. So *please try us again* - we truly do support you and wish to follow your journey with Miles. I commend you on your open mindedness and dedication to your dog.
Finally, I do not consider one lazy when one does their homework, seeks advice and learns to use a tool and goes out daily to work with one's dog. I am finding the redundantly opined inflammatory comment that one must be "lazy" because one does not agree with another's position on the subject beneath the level of this forum, and the poster whom otherwise I hold great respect. I hope we don't need to continue to hear this particular comment in the future. 
Ken


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## MilesMom

We were planning to try the E collar basic command on lead last night, but we both had a long hard day at work and were not in the right mind set for patience and focused training (not a good night for dog training!). So we put on the collar in the Off mode and took Miles out for a fun lagoon run and let him have some fun pointing out rabbit and duck to us. At home later last night we put the collar on our wrists and tested out all the functions on ourselves in preparation for tonight's first training session. I feel comfortable knowing the level of intensity we will be nicking Miles with now that we have tested it on ourselves.


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## v-john

Nice post Ken. I don't use a whistle, just voice. But I also run them with collars too. Not because I need the collar to call them in, but as a safety device. I don't need them to chase something towards a road. Call them off? Well, they are so prey-driven, that sometimes it's impossible. Or sometimes it's so far, they can't hear me. Living in Kansas, I can see a long ways, but they can't hear me. Not with the wind that we have. I had my little Sis bitch at 800 yards per the Garmin. I could see her and knew what she was doing, but I doubt that she'd be able to hear me. 

By the way, I love the Garmin. Highly recommend. 
Milesmom, I think many people get a misconception about E-collars from what they hear and see on the internet and such. But clearly you are going through the steps to LEARN how to use one, and this, is commendable. You really are going about it the right way.


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## redbirddog

http://email.villagepress.com/pub/PDJ/20130328/ecollar_Mar13.html

Article from Pointing Dog Journal. 

excerpt from article:

"In upland hunting, silence is golden, especially, but of course not limited to, pheasants. These birds hear farm equipment, passing vehicles, all sorts of things. What they don't hear often is the human voice, and all of us – I'm one of the worst – can't keep our mouths shut when we hunt."

RBD


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## texasred

I like the article. I'm the type of person that doesn't like to hunt or train with someone that's always hacking their dog. I can tolerate it on occasion but it sure makes it less enjoyable. My husband says I can be unsociable at times.
Oh well, we all have our shortcomings.


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## redbirddog

TexasRed,

I'm with you. Vizslas in the field are know to be very quiet. I might toot my whistle one or two toots every once in awhile to direct Bailey, but for the most part I am as quiet as he is. 

"Hacking" or yelling orders to your dog, is very annoying to me on a peaceful Sunday morning. When we are out at the hunting preserve and I hear some hunter from 1/2 a mile away *yelling commands* at his dog ALL THE TIME it just bothers me. 

A way to spoil the mood of a nice pheasant hunt. Quiet is good.

RBD


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## R E McCraith

E-collar just a training tool - may be abused by a Lazy owner - I did say that and stand by it - here is a example - get a invisible fence and strap the collar on the pup and put him out and hope for the best ? a pup that has no idea of it's boundaries - great chance of failure - the point I was making is as a owner you have to learn how to use the E-collar - that means do your homework - research know your and the pups short comings - it is not a quick fix - having seen E-collars used to abuse a pup in the field I wish I could put it on the owner - the E-collar is used to reinforce commands the pup already knows - not to teach NEW ones -


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## Ozkar

Guys n gals, I pulled my head in to allow MM to map out her experiences. Let's leave the debate for another thread. If you keep posting opinions, you just know I'll be back in to keep the debate TWO sided...................


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## harrigab

I've often wondered about the e-collar route when training ain't panning out as I'd hoped, when i look back at *why* training wasn't getting rewards I expected it seems to be that I'd had maybe a pig of a day at work, kids happen playing up etc, ie not conditions conducive to good calm training sessions. I'm neither pro or anti e-collars, horses for courses imo but on good calm stress free days i prefer whistle, hand signals, praise for training. My tuppence worth.


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## redbirddog

MilesMom is my hero! Doing it the slow and calm method.

I will be waiting to read each episode of the adventure.

That they are willing to share with us the wins and loses so we can learn. Perfect use of a forum in my opinion.

In between her posts we can share experiences and things we find out. As long as we don't say "our way or the highway" and listen and post with the idea of learning as the goal all is good in the world.

MilesMom. Keep it up. Glad you put the collar on your wrist and experienced it for yourself. 

RBD.


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## R E McCraith

Oz I'm with you !!! we live to fight another day - LOL -hope Miles Mom starts a new post to tell us how's it's going - being an honest and pup loving person - we will all learn the ups and downs of her experience with the collar - PIKE & I know the path she takes will be the right ONE !!!!!!!


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## R E McCraith

Miles MOM - I to love Steve at gundog supply - call him up and always ready to answer your questions and add his own advice - I think enough of his store I maybe putting one of his kid's through college - Title for your new post !! M&M's adventures with a new E-collar oVVner - SHOCK ME IF YOU CAN !!!!!!!! LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## hobbsy1010

There is something, I can't explain what it is but it is a special 'time', 'moment', 'place' when you are out with your dog and there is nothing else about bar the flora and forna.
No phones, cameras, training devices no '21st century gadgetry'
Just you and your pup(s) and it can be a 'look' a slight gesture and you both know that you are on an equal plane, an understanding between the both of you, about what is about to happen or what you want from him/ her at that moment.
This I personally think can only come from spending, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months and years together, if you can not afford this time commitment then SHOCK may be the way to get your dog to understand you in a 'SLOW AND CALM METHOD'


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## MilesMom

We had our first training session with the collar turned on tonight. We put it on and took him out for a bit, had dinner, then started training so the goal is he doesn't become collar conditioned and only respond to commands when collar is on. We first found the level where he feels the frequency, which was level one. He acted like he had an itch on his neck so we knew he felt the lowest level. We then proceeded to work on 'come' on a 6 foot lead while using a 'nick' from the collar when we say the command. Tail was wagging, he loved his verbal praise. 'Come' on lead is very easy for him but we want to follow the steps and not skip any which may confuse him. Will probably lengthen to a 10 foot lead tomorrow. Overall we were very pleased. Miles is a timid dog so we were prepared to re direct his attention if he acted scared of the level 1 frequency. He didn't act scared at 
all and we were glad to have a tail wagging happy pup.


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## MilesMom

I believe when we lengthen the lead out we hold continuous until he moves toward us then turn off as he moves in the right direction. 'Nick' is pretty much continuous for 6 feet ;D


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## MilesMom

Miles has progressed from E collar training 10 ft cord all the way to the 50 foot. He is very excited about his training and wiggles his butt and bites the check cord when he is praised. We have progressed tonight to off lead about 30 feet. He is having 100 percent recall. Wednesday night we plan to put him back on the check cord and start working with him outside.


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## MilesMom

Ok first problem. We are at lowest setting and miles was acting timid of the stimulation tonight. After a week of 100 percent recall he's now a bit nervous. Followed training manual advice to re direct his attention and apparently this is not un common, but wanted to ask if anyone has experienced this? Seeking advice before it escalates.


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## MilesMom

Thinking of lowering collar to vibrate.


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## MilesMom

We will leave it on level one then. He does have a crate, but we don't use it much, only on vacations. Its not even in the house right now... We had been using continuous the past few days and it was going well. We will take a break then re introduce continuous back on lead.


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## texasred

Just trying to figure out where you are in the training, and whats causing him to be timid to it.
Are you nicking him when he is doing what you ask?
He may have the Here part of training down and not understand why he is being nicked, if you are.
It would confuse him.


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## MilesMom

I think that's the problem. Not sure about the whole nick thing now which is what we learned. We had gotten to the point where he was coming with nick and verbal cue at 50ft but I agree now that he doesn't get the nick. As datacan said, some are now teaching the nick with the leash jerk which is what we were taught but we are re evaluating that method bc I don't think it's working. 

Currently we are just having him wear the collar. He doesn't associate it with the stimualation. We r trying to figure out our next plan.


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## MilesMom

Open for input from more skilled e collar users, but we were thinking about putting him on a long check cord out in the field behind our house then telling him to come. If he doesn't we were going to warn with vibrate, then level one continuous with leash pressure for second step. 

We thought the nick was a good idea in the beginning to condition him to the stimulation, but now I think it confused him because he already comes when called in focused training so he didn't get why he would be nicked. He is great without distractions, which is why we thought letting him roam on a check cord would be more valuable training because that's when he needs correction. 

Thoughts?


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## MilesMom

No, miles does not know the kennel command. We would probably have to teach him that first right?


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## dmak

My first use of the e collar for Kauzy was to reinforce his recall as he would get a distracted quickly. This is what worked for us, and it worked rather quickly. I had already been whistle and hand signal training so I continued with those. With the collar on I would give his hos collar a beep and immeadiatly followed with a vocal command "return". This associated the beep as a command prompt. Then I would beep the collar and then whistle. After a day or two of doing this we then went to an area where I knew he would get distracted. Time for the nick. I gave the collar a beep then instantly a return command, if he starts coming, awesome, if not, one more beep/command, then if no response 10 sec later I beeped and nicked on level 2. He felt the nick and instantly started returning. After doing this 5-6 times he quickly learned the beep meant "pay attention". Half way through a return he would stop to sniff; bee/nick, he resumed the return. I never really had to use continuous, maybe once or twice when he got really stubborn. After a week or two his recall was 95% better. I then and now only have to beep the collar to get and keep his attention and we have since transitioned the collar to be a communication tool, a walkie talkie for my pup and I so to speak. Works really well for us.


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## MilesMom

Than you all for your suggestions and support with this training! After consultation with our breeder ( who now helps us with training as our old trainer wasn't working anymore) we decided to try the tone cue and drop the nick with leash jerk concept. We took him to the park to play fetch today and of course he was a perfect angel the first 20 min when we were expecting to train him. He got distracted in some bushes after awhile, so we tried the tone in conjunction with his 'come' command. He came right away and was very happy. We used the tone two other instances in this outing ( started chasing a bike ) and he came right away. We do plan to increase to level 1 stim if he doesn't respond to his first warning of the tone. 

We are thrilled with his progress and will keep all other advice in mind if we have another hiccup. He still does not associate the stimulation with the collar which is good.


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## MilesMom

Good idea about the leash pressure and changing directions. We can practice on our walks. Our breeder doesn't hunt but I know her family does and her dogs all went to training. Miles is descended from On Point and Schabens Vizslas, which I know are hunting breeders.

I don't think our initial nick and leash pop technique was a total waste of time though, as that is likely why he comes when called in a distracting situation with the tone. He likely associates the external stimulation with the recall cue still or he would have just looked at us all confused when we hit the tone button.

Miles is a bit of a fearful dog so perhaps the tone is a better option for him. More to come tomorrow night.


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## dmak

I learned quickly that the beep feature is the best feature of the collar. Totally worth every penny IMO. anxious to hear of your progress. Sounds as though you are doing everything right and you are reaping the benefits of proper use


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## MilesMom

Thanks everyone, it's been a learning process. Our last dog was a lab greyhound mix who we shared with roommates before we got married and he was not a high energy sport dog. He was so different than a vizsla we never explored the world of training collars and off leash recall. One leashed run and playing ball with him in the yard and he was a happy tired dog. Completely unlike miles who NEEDS off leash exercise daily and wants to learn and be challenged. But we love it and that's why we got him  we are willing to put the work in to training him , it's just taking some trial and error.


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## MilesMom

Pic of miles today during his training


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## R E McCraith

Miles mom - PIKE is my 4th V - wish I had a E-collar 43 years ago with my first V - the e-collar is just a training tool just like a lead - pinch collar - whistle or check cord - at the end of the day of hunting wild birds in the field I still wonder who is training who ? I learn from the PUP and the PUP learns from me - that is why I loVe gun dogs - every day is different - they do keep you young and fun !!!!!!!!!!!


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## MilesMom

E collar continues to be going great. We have only hit tone twice in last 2 days and I took him to the park down the street today that he is usually very naughty at and he came every time I called him. 

Next step for me is to figure out an emergency plan because I don't want to panic and just hit a bunch of buttons if he is going towards barbed wire etc. What do you all do if your dog starts running at something or towards danger? We are going on a hiking vacation next week. I don't want to panic if I need him to come back ASAP if he is running at something. Do you use the same level or immediately ramp it up?


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## redbirddog

MilesMom,

There is the "Come to Jesus" momentary I have used. It is when Bailey would chase cows or coyotes.

When he would get close to the cows running after them I would hit it. If I had to I would hit it again. This is level 5. As soon as he quit chasing I would stop. I wouldn't say a word. I wouldn't yell NO or anything. When he came back on his own I'd calmly say.

"Darn Bailey, did those cows shock you? Maybe you should leave them alone."

Only used for cows and coyotes.

RBD


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## MilesMom

That's a good way to describe it! 

What level is Bailey on usually?


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## redbirddog

> What level is Bailey on usually?


On a walk and normal distractions 2 is fine.

In hunting and he chases a bird that he KNOWS he is not supposed to do it is 3.5 but *always* momentary giving him a chance to "self-correct." 

But this is after hours and hours of off leash walks first with nothing higher than 2 except for those few come to Jesus times.

It is a LONG process. No hurry.



> buttons if he is going towards barbed wire


Barbed wire tends to have it's own self-correct method IMO. No need to add anything extra. :

RBD


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## R E McCraith

M Mom - PIKE is conditioned to his collar - a beep is all it takes at this time - that being said - I have the shock at 5 - if PIKE sets one paw on the road the correction is given on continuous till he turns and moves to me - hurt feelings before a hurt pup !!! PIKE did start at level 1 - but I always used the beep before a shock correction - I never got above 1 in the field - they are Very soft pups !!!!!!!!!!


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## MilesMom

Thanks everyone! If we are using tone regularly I will start with level 2 continuous (sport dog 10 level possible), in an emergency. Just a few days ago I walked outside my front door to and there were 2 racoons there. If Miles had been with me that would have been an emergency!


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## R E McCraith

Data - LOL - PIKE is the STUD MUFFIN - Do they make a 220 Volt collar ? dry the clothes and shock the PUP !!!!!!!!!!!


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## MilesMom

I think I don't make it tight enough. It starts in the right spot then slips down a bit while he runs. I will make it a little tighter so it stays in place. It tends to slips down and to the center by the end of his exercise session. 

We have the Sport Dog 425. I think it's new this year, or it's new to Gun Dog Supply. We will likely add another collar when "Chase" is old enough to be trained on it.


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## R E McCraith

Data - better get a BIGGER DECK !!!!!!!!! the PUP is beautiful !!!!


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## redbirddog

Wow Datacan, That boy of yours is buff! He looks good in a training collar.



> ROD, think of the next life, LOL... what if we come back as Hungarian Pointers..


And yes, please let me come back as a Hungarian Vizsla! I will happily wear a training collar. You betcha!

MilesMom, Keep training and doing what you know is right. I think you are doing great IMHO.

A well-mannered dog is a safe dog. Get there the best way you can. Once there then life is much easier. Never stop learning no matter how old you or your dog get. Always something new to learn for both of you.

RBD


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## Vida

Data, your boy is gorgeous, but it's hard to see all of him when he's wearing so much equipment! 
Any chance of some shots of him naked?? 8)


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## MilesMom

We are beyond thrilled with Miles' progress. He has a bad habit of chasing bikers :-\ Yesterday 2 bikers went by and Miles started to take off after them. My husband called "come" with the tone button and he came immediately. This never would have happened last month, we would have had to chase after him as he LOVES chasing bikes. Still haven't had an emergency to test that plan out, but I guess that's a good thing


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## redbirddog

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2013/04/cesar-millan-trains-cartman.html

Datacan turned me on to Cesar trains Cartman. Then I went to South Park wedsite and found the whole episode.

Watched it with my grown daughter who is a child psychologist and we laughed our butts off watching cartman take on first the Super Nannys and the Dog Whisperer.

There are commericals in the whole episode but not bad.

RBD


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## tech_dog

I usually don't let my 13 year old son watch Southpark, but I made an exception and wached that episode with him a couple years ago. To this day, if he does something that's annoying I'll make that "tssss" noise and pretend to poke him in the ribs.


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## Rudy

Data da Man

This, Thats a PEC DECK" ;D 

My brother ;D 

where do I get the training harness all of it?

Not for my mates
For Me ;D


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## MilesMom

As Miles is doing great with his E collar we took him on his first off leash hike with it on. He did amazing. He came the majority of the time with a whistle or calling 'come'. Only had to use tone once when some bikers went by. We were so much more relaxed and we all had more fun. Here are some pics from today at Big Bear Lake. We are staying for 3 days.


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## R E McCraith

MM - that is 1 steep trail !!!! sorry just rotated the Pic - LOL !!!!!!!


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## MilesMom

It was steep, but it was the altitude that was most difficult!!we live at sea level and we were up about 7000ft. Miles did great, we were feeling it though. Took him for a nice swim after. We have a longer hike planned tomorrow so hope we are more acclimated to altitude.


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## Drewr729

eCollar saved my life  Our little girl responded so well and now gets to go so many places off leash! People always comment on how well behaved she is, I think they are jealous  She used to jump on people all the time... and we tried EVERYTHING... now she sits and wags her tail until the person says hello.


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## MilesMom

We are beyond thrilled with our progress with the E collar. Miles is getting even more off leash time now and we are having more fun with our outings. 

So now that we are on puppy watch (Chase due to be born within the next week) any advice on when I can start the e collar training with him? I know you are supposed to wait until the dog understand the verbal command, but Miles knew "come" when he was 10 weeks old which I think is too young for the collar and he didn't start selectively ignoring me until about 8-9 months. I'd like to start with Chase before this phase starts. I was thinking 6 months? Thoughts? I am sure that each dog is different but just looking for some general guidelines.


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## texasred

Mine are normally 6-9 months old. 
I do it when they decide its not important to listen to me out in the fields any longer.


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## MilesMom

That makes sense datacan. I guess it will depend on the dog. Miles' only issue was recall, he's great on leash now at 16 months so we will have to see how Chase develops.


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## ryanothebeach

Just wanted to share my experience:

The ecollar is working well for me & mine, as a gauge of harshness, I don't set it higher than I can handle on myself, she doesn't flinch or even react on the main setting (3), I go one higher (4) when she's amped up/very distracted & she doesn't react to that either. It's not magic at these levels and doesn't elicit an immediate change but after 5/10 corrections she gets it. This is what ultimately helped solve the leash pulling issue which was a tough one. Took me a long time to get her to understand what she was doing wrong first then applied the ecollar and she mustered the self control reasonably quickly. I still need reminder days now and again but mostly she's good.
Initially when I used it on these low settings and she was excited she just ignored the corrections but slowly it sunk in. figured that was a better approach than over-correcting.

I used the sport dog version just because it had vibrate and tone. I use the vibrate as a remote release command (from stay/woh etc.) and the tone as a recall which she is starting to understand.
So basically it's a duel purpose tool, correction and remote commands.
The sport dog ecollar seems well made and waterproof, pretty much everything I would want except it could do with one more button or a few more levels. there are 4 commands but only 3 buttons (nick, cont., buzz, tone), not sure who missed that in the design but seems like quite a large oversight to me. So you have to change the mode to get the other functions which is a laborious process. Also it could do with a few more smaller steps in intensity from 3-4 could do with a level in between. But other than not having nick available, it's a great training tool.


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## texasred

datacan said:


> Personally, I would not choose to rely directly on the ecollar. I find it too impersonal and the dog would end up listening but not respecting me.
> I prefer to transition from the physical correction phase which starts at 6 months with the PRONGS (in my case) to the ecollar at about 9 months.
> 
> Before 6 months I perfer to touch and handle the dog, rather than rely on the collar and leash for corrections.
> 
> Sorry, I don't hunt. Just my personal experice with obedience expressed here.


Did you read this months steady with style?

http://steadywithstyle.com/using-physical-correction/


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## texasred

Respect in hunting dogs.
The dog has to work with you as a team.
Its the dogs job to find the birds, and stay on point until released. Its the handlers job to flush and make a good shot on the bird. Then release the dog to retrieve it. Say you walk in to flush a bird and a mature dog starts to move (creep) with you. He will take out the bird, and both of you will watch it fly away. It means he is competing with you for the flush, and not being a team player.


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## mlwindc

We are doing prongs with Wilson at 7 months. About 60 percent of the prongs have plastic tip covers. We spend less time fighting and getting mad, more time walking and being in sync. Would love to hunt him someday so ecollar is well in our future.


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## texasred

*Isn't this similar to Maurice' platform of teaching - combining the old with the new... Yields better results?*
Yes 
I love Mo's training methods.

A broke bird dog will stay on point even if it takes you a while to get to him. A independent dog that will listen to a handler sounds like a contradiction, but thats what it takes to hunt birds. Prey driven and biddable is the wording for such a dog.


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## texasred

So much of a great bird dog is genetics. You can not teach a dog to have a excellent nose, nor can you make one have prey drive. There has to be something already there to work with. Both biddable and hard head dogs can be trained, hardheaded just takes longer. Extremely high prey driven pups can leave a owner scratching their head.
They can get caught up in the hunt, and can forget your in the field with them. You have to convince them to work with you, while not over handling (commands,pinch collar, check cord,ecollar) them. Its a tightrope, if you lean to far to either side you won't have the right results.
Its very easy for a novice to over correct, or under correct.
Then the matter of timing the corrections, or deciding that no correction is needed. The dog learned from it own actions. 
What you get in the end is beautiful dance, With the handler and dog taking ques from each other.


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## redbirddog

> What you get in the end is beautiful dance, With the handler and dog taking ques from each other.


TexasRed,

That is a great description of how Bailey and my relationship has evolved in the field. 

The better "Dancing with the Stars." Luck for us, Bailey leads! ;D

RBD


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## WillowyndRanch

TexasRed said:


> So much of a great bird dog is genetics. You can not teach a dog to have a excellent nose, nor can you make one have prey drive. There has to be something already there to work with. Both biddable and hard head dogs can be trained, hardheaded just takes longer. Extremely high prey driven pups can leave a owner scratching their head.
> They can get caught up in the hunt, and can forget your in the field with them. You have to convince them to work with you, while not over handling (commands,pinch collar, check cord,ecollar) them. Its a tightrope, if you lean to far to either side you won't have the right results.
> Its very easy for a novice to over correct, or under correct.
> Then the matter of timing the corrections, or deciding that no correction is needed. The dog learned from it own actions.
> What you get in the end is beautiful dance, With the handler and dog taking ques from each other.


Calum - we need to add a totally LOVE this button! Well said Red!


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## OttosMama

I apologize because I know this has been discussed before - I just can't seem to find the post and I don't want to waste anymore time this morning looking for it. 

Where should the receiver be placed on the dog's neck? The directions instruct to put the receiver right over the dog's throat. However, I thought I had read that it is better to place it off to the side of the neck, closer to his ear. 

We purchased an e-collar for Otto after our trainer started using it with him in the field. I had read that the dog should wear it without any sort of correction for a while so that he doesn't associate the correction with the collar. I had been considering it anyway because Otto is still easily distracted by other dogs/smells/birds. Now that school is over for the summer break, we are just starting to train him on it but we are just introducing it now so no actual training is taking place while it's on.


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## texasred

I place my ecollars at the highest part of the neck. Tight enough so that you can only slip two fingers between the back of the dogs neck and the collar. My dogs heel to the right and place the receiver just to the left of the throat.


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## OttosMama

Thanks TexasRed! Why do you choose to place the receiver off to the left of their throat? I can imagine why, but the instructions say to keep it at the lowest part of their neck (or over their throat).


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## texasred

Highest (close to the head) part of the neck. The prongs need to be in constant contact with the dog for it to work. You don't want to put any physical pressure on the ecollar, with your hand or from a regular flat collar they are wearing. Collar placement helps to keep that from happening. If you are using a slip collar or pinch collar make sure it is not pulling on the ecollar. If it does the prongs will rub on the dogs skin causing it to become sore.
On why the left side.
Its just worked better for me to have the stimulation come from the opposite side than I'm on. Especially If my dog might be force fetched, and the pressure transferred to an ecollar. It might not make a difference to your dog, but it does to some.


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## MilesMom

This thread has gotten long! I am the OP and I just wanted to share that we had our first emergency situation with the E collar tonight. I met up with a friend and her Shepard mix and went out for an off leash hike. A few minutes into the hike we heard rustling in the bushes and it turned out to be a pack of coyotes. My friend's dog took off after them and it was scary trying to catch him. I hit the continuous level 1 button and Miles ran right over to me. I'm so glad he responded quickly to the shock and that this tool is helping him stay safe.


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