# Interesting encounter yesterday. Want y'alls thoughts on purposeful breed mixing?



## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

Yesterday, after our failed hunt, we decided to stay in the remote town we were in and make a day of it. We went to lunch, played by the lake and had a great Sunday. Later in the afternoon, we found an open common dog area and went to meet other dogs (alot of gundogs in this town). We ran into a man with a pup that looked just like my Kauzy. The man, Earl is his name, began asking me where when and how I got my pup. I told him our story. Earl then began to tell me how he and his brother have been working on creating their own breed of dog designed to be able to work any game all day long in the toughest of terrain, the swamps and bayous of Louisiana. He told me they have been mixing catahoulas, plott hounds, black mouth curs, retrievers and vizslas. They've been doing it for about 6 years now. He then told me the best creation they've had was a black mouth vizsla (cur/v mix). Beaux, the pup earl had with him, is also a cur/v mix. He was beyond certain that Kauzy is one of his pups he gave away from 2 1/2 yrs ago. The back story I got from the rescue shelter even seemed to fit with some of the details Earl rambled on about. Obviously, without DNA testing, we'll never know for certain. In two weeks we're going to go meet Earl on his 800 acre homestead, where Kauzy may meet his parents and a couple litter mates. Even if they aren't the same family it'll be fun, and its new private land I can now hunt at no cost. It was a very randomly fun experience and we're anxious to go back. 

My question to the forum, breeders more specifically, what are your thoughts and feelings on new breed creation/experiments? I feel that if its done responsibly, without inbreeding, while still maintaining the purity of the originally used breeds, that it can be a great thing. I assume that's how we have alot of the breeds we have today.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

*Re: Interesting encounter yesterday. Want y'alls thoughts on purposeful breed mixing?*

Sounds really interesting.

Saw a dog breed book from the late 1800's that listed over 500 breeds of dogs. The Europeans were experimenting with what the person you have come across is doing. Most of these breeds are now historical footnotes.

http://www.amazon.com/Pukkas-Promise-Quest-Longer-Lived-Dogs/dp/0547236263

Just started Ted Kerasote's new book _Pukka's Promise._ Same author of _"Merle's Door."_ Merle's Door is one of my all time favorite dog books.

Dog genetics is a very interesting subject and Kerasote addresses it well in his books.

I think 1,000 years to develop the current Hungarian Pointer is good enough for me.
Perfection takes time. Add to that a 7-generation pedigree on a pup you might be getting tells you so much if you are looking for genes. 

RBD


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: Interesting encounter yesterday. Want y'alls thoughts on purposeful breed mixing?*

I personally dislike what some folks have done to try and develop their own breeds. There is a guy who produces, what he calls "wesselpointers" which, I beleive, were shorthair/lab crosses. 
Labradoodles, Goldendoodles, Yorkiepoos, Pugapoos, and Lord knows what other "fad" breeds that are out there that someone thinks of. 
We have enough mixed dogs, and purebred dogs in the shelters, without someone creating more of them on purpose. 

Please don't take this as a shot at your dog, or any mixed breed for that matter. I just do not care for people crossing and marketing breeds like that.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

*Re: Interesting encounter yesterday. Want y'alls thoughts on purposeful breed mixing?*

I have mixed feeling on it.
There was a outfitter in Texas that ran GSP/ EP crosses. He loved the dogs and bred them only for his own use.
When he passed away his son had no intrest in them. He sold them for $50 each, not sure if they all sold. Or what would have happened to the ones that didn't.
So I'm not against doing it, if its to serves your own needs. But you need to have a plan in place for when you leave this world. We all do, and placing one or two purebreds is easier than placing a string of crossbred dogs.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

*Re: Interesting encounter yesterday. Want y'alls thoughts on purposeful breed mixing?*

That's pretty cool even if Kauzy doesn't end up being one of Earl's pups. But assuming he is, Kauzy is doing everything he was bred to do in the intended terrain so that validates to some degree this particular cross-breed. Still with the vizsla being so versatile in nature, what in your opinion does the black cur bring to the table?

I think a lot can be achieved as far as purposeful changes after a few generations while remaining in the standard. One example is the slightly different temperament and body style of North American vs. European vizsla lines. So to justify a new cross breed there would have to be an outlying factor that training alone could not adapt to--function comes from form, after all. The unique geography of the Mississippi Delta certainly meets that requirement. The WHV is a perfect example of cross-breeding with purpose.

Personally I'm more willing to accept it for a working dog. We can probably all agree that faddish designer dogs made purely to be a money-making cute accessory is wrong, but when the intent is making a more hypoallergenic dog is that wrong?


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## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Interesting encounter yesterday. Want y'alls thoughts on purposeful breed mixing?*

V-john - no offence at all. I wouldn't have posed the question if I didn't want to hear the opinions of others

Einspanner - from what earl said and from my research I believe he incorporated the cur for a few reasons. Curs are not as soft in their training allowing "harder and swifter" corrections. Curs are also amazing large game trackers, and tend to bay animals very well. When hunting large game, they are fearless with their target, where a softer V may back down in the face of adversity. I got lucky when I picked my guy at the shelter. I've never trained a purebred V so I can't compare, but of all the gundogs I've trained and/or worked with, Kauzy has been the smoothest and quickest learner. Ridiculously intelligent, die hard intensity, a true desire to please, and truly fearless in the field. He's my bad ass


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

*Re: Interesting encounter yesterday. Want y'alls thoughts on purposeful breed mixing?*

I would say the major flaw in the argument is that no inbreeding take place. In truly developing a new breed of dog, it's imperative one inbreed to purify the strain. Culling and only breeding back to the best dogs possessing the traits and getting the hereditary factors coded or identified and breeding out the undesired and in the desired is correct.

"Inbreeding" as a term is highly misunderstood and stygmatized, because when it's done *without* significant investments of time, keeping entire litters of pups through development, culling or removing from breeding stock (altering dogs so they CANNOT be used) people end up doubling or tripling up on the hereditary factors like dysplasia, temperment issues etc. It's gotten it's bad name from people who don't have a clue about genetics. 
Always outcrossing is an avenue where one can *never* eliminate hereditary issues, because the strain or line is never purified to eliminate them.
Anyone who has been in dogs for a long time has heard of Elhew Pointers, arguably the platinum standard in English Pointers. Anyone who is considering breeding should read Snakefoot, Robert Wehle's 60 year journey of breeding (and a LOT of inbreeding) to develop his famous line of dogs.

I'm with others that if one is breeding for their own personal use and not trying to change the existing breed, that's their concern. It's when people try to mix say English Pointer into the Vizsla breed in deceiptful and dishonest manner, that is a significant problem.

If one is honest and forthright about what they are doing, such as the case of the Red Setter, outcrossing the pretty much defunct Irish Setter with English, then back to Irish for several generations and keeping the registry in order and open and honest as to the dogs used and why to bring field back into a breed that had nearly entirely lost it, I think that is a worthy endeavor. 

I am not convinced the Vizsla is a breed that is of that condition and the genetic pool so small of working dogs that it would be required.

Ken


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## VictoriaW (Mar 16, 2011)

*Re: Interesting encounter yesterday. Want y'alls thoughts on purposeful breed mixing?*

Dmak,

I'm really happy for you that a chance encounter has turned into a neat moment, with the possibility for friendship and perhaps more knowledge about Kauzy's background. Sounds entirely awesome.

At the same time...I am kind of sad that this fellow bred puppies and then brought the leftovers to a shelter? Or am I misunderstanding? :'(

Hope you have some good adventures with Kauzy's new buddy--

v.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

*Re: Interesting encounter yesterday. Want y'alls thoughts on purposeful breed mixing?*



> I've never trained a purebred V so I can't compare, but of all the gundogs I've trained and/or worked with, Kauzy has been the smoothest and quickest learner. Ridiculously intelligent, die hard intensity, a true desire to please, and truly fearless in the field. He's my bad ass


Dmak,
See what you said is against where some people want the Vizsla to go. A more gentle dog. 

Here is a Hungarian Pure Breed that might be tough enough for you. I think I would love one. They are almost extinct because they have no real "purpose". Ridiculously intelligent, die hard intensity, a true desire to please, and tirely fearless in the field ARE important qualities in our Hungarian Pointers. But the Transylvanian Hound is another option for a dog that has these qualities in huge amounts.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/07/transylvanian-hound-only-other.html

Glad you love your dog. Get around some pure bred Hungarian Pointers that hunters use and have bred for that reason. You might find they can be tough as nails when need be.

RBD


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## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Interesting encounter yesterday. Want y'alls thoughts on purposeful breed mixing?*

Victoria - From our conversation I gathered that Earl doesn't give his extra pups to the shelter (he's a true Cajun and a bit hard to understand). He either keeps them or places them with local farmers/hunters. He said about 3 years ago he attempted to sell some of his pups to local families ($40 a pup) and did so for about 6 months. He then learned that a couple of the pups had been surrendered to shelters due to their high energy level. He stopped selling his pups to random folks after that. The back story I got from the rescue group I got Kauzy from is that a 20 yr old kid moved from Hammond (the town we met Earl in) to New Orleans with a wild 6 month old pup, couldn't find an apartment that would let him keep the dog and gave him up.

RBD - I always love following the blog links you post, I never know where it will take me. I love your blog. I plan on having a purebred V one of these days. However, after reading about this Transylvanian Hound you've introduced me to, I am seriously considering seeking one out. It really does sound like a perfect breed for me. Thanks.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

*Re: Interesting encounter yesterday. Want y'alls thoughts on purposeful breed mixing?*



WillowyndRanch said:


> I would say the major flaw in the argument is that no inbreeding take place. In truly developing a new breed of dog, it's imperative one inbreed to purify the strain. Culling and only breeding back to the best dogs possessing the traits and getting the hereditary factors coded or identified and breeding out the undesired and in the desired is correct.
> 
> "Inbreeding" as a term is highly misunderstood and stygmatized, because when it's done *without* significant investments of time, keeping entire litters of pups through development, culling or removing from breeding stock (altering dogs so they CANNOT be used) people end up doubling or tripling up on the hereditary factors like dysplasia, temperment issues etc. It's gotten it's bad name from people who don't have a clue about genetics.
> Always outcrossing is an avenue where one can *never* eliminate hereditary issues, because the strain or line is never purified to eliminate them.
> ...


Nice post. Although we like to call it "line breeding"...  


Much of the designer dogs are developed specifically for such a small niche, that finding homes for them can be difficult once their purpose has been established. Our shelters are full of mixed breeds as it is. When people apply for vizslas, almost all of them want a purebred. (at least through our rescue). 
So it's hard for me to fathom why someone wants to do this on purpose and have to wrap my head around it. There are so many purebred dogs out there that can do so many things... I have a hard time comprehending why someone couldn't adopt/buy one of those types of dogs...


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