# Velcro vs Separation anxiety - where's the line?



## Poppy'sHooman (6 mo ago)

Hi all! 

This is more of a general "what's worked well for you" type of a question in avoiding separation anxiety before it becomes a full blown problem that will be harder to correct if it gets there. Our 5.5 month Poppy is a classic velcro and I'm not upset about it; it's one of the features we chose the Vizsla for. But, I do feel like there are/should be some limits to this for balance and I'm wondering what are some things you actively/intentionally did with your puppy to have a happy and healthy velcro dog, but one who doesn't have full blown separation anxiety. Or the reverse, does your dog have separation anxiety and do you look back to the puppy days and think "man, I wish I had done blank a little differently" (there are already things I wish I had done differently in the earlier days).

I follow a couple dog trainers on Instagram and they'll mention certain behaviours or things dogs are doing that you shouldn't allow from the SA sense, but I don't know where to draw the line between that and just the typical V behaviour. I'm at home with Poppy almost all day and have been from day 1 (regretting this a teensy bit). She does follow me from room to room for the most part (don't mind), and will sometimes whine when I'm on the other side of the baby gate, sometimes even when my partner is with her in the other room (not great). We're working on settling more and she'll happily work on a chew for ages... beside me, and we're up to 2hrs in the crate at a time throughout the day, working on implementing a specific schedule for some routine. One area that concerns me is that when we go out for walks the 3 of us she gets quite upset when we part, like if my partner crosses the road to put her poo bag in the garbage or goes into a store. With him, she'll just freeze and refuse to move on until he comes back. With me... on a good day it's the same, on a bad day she howls (I know them wanting us to stay together is classic dog herding behaviour but the howling is not ideal).

Anyway! I'd love to get some general advice and tips for things that you think worked well for you. I feel like our expectation is a velcro, but maybe one that doesn't go insane and crying and howling when we have to part 😅


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## Pupmum99 (Jan 4, 2022)

She’s still really tiny. For me, mine just turned 18 months and he has ONLY just become accepting of being left alone at home without howling or crying. It’s taken a long time of working on building it, I think what helped our situation was making sure he was left alone in other parts of the house when I was still home so he knew he’d need to be apart from me even if I was there and he had to be cool with his own company.

My advice would be little and often with separation, with something more exciting and engaging to do than want to be with you if you can find something she can’t say no to. For my boy, anything too much work/not easy enough access food wise in brain games and he’d rather be howling and focusing on the fact I’m not there. Peanut butter on a licki mat however or a high value animal part and he’s like, mum who? It was up and down with us progress wise, but it really is perseverance and remembering she absolutely is still a baby.

I’ve always used a camera too to watch his behaviour when left, but there are arguments for and against doing that.


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## Poppy'sHooman (6 mo ago)

Pupmum99 said:


> She’s still really tiny. For me, mine just turned 18 months and he has ONLY just become accepting of being left alone at home without howling or crying. It’s taken a long time of working on building it, I think what helped our situation was making sure he was left alone in other parts of the house when I was still home so he knew he’d need to be apart from me even if I was there and he had to be cool with his own company.
> 
> My advice would be little and often with separation, with something more exciting and engaging to do than want to be with you if you can find something she can’t say no to. For my boy, anything too much work/not easy enough access food wise in brain games and he’d rather be howling and focusing on the fact I’m not there. Peanut butter on a licki mat however or a high value animal part and he’s like, mum who? It was up and down with us progress wise, but it really is perseverance and remembering she absolutely is still a baby.
> 
> I’ve always used a camera too to watch his behaviour when left, but there are arguments for and against doing that.


Thank you! Yes, definitely still a baby and we have, I think, pretty low expectations of her in this regard but wanting to put in the foundation work now so that it becomes possible in the future. Little and often, I can work on that. Because of my work situation she hasn't been forced to be alone much, so back tracking a little bit with finding ways to distance myself a bit. I can definitely work more on leaving the room more but the open concept apartment limits that a little. The peanut butter lick mat and an edible (but not swallowable 🙄) chew also cause Poppy to often forget who I am so those are good ideas for working on being in separate rooms. Thank you!


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## Pupmum99 (Jan 4, 2022)

Poppy'sHooman said:


> Thank you! Yes, definitely still a baby and we have, I think, pretty low expectations of her in this regard but wanting to put in the foundation work now so that it becomes possible in the future. Little and often, I can work on that. Because of my work situation she hasn't been forced to be alone much, so back tracking a little bit with finding ways to distance myself a bit. I can definitely work more on leaving the room more but the open concept apartment limits that a little. The peanut butter lick mat and an edible (but not swallowable 🙄) chew also cause Poppy to often forget who I am so those are good ideas for working on being in separate rooms. Thank you!


Also randomly… my boy loves David Attenborough and I’ve often seen him on the camera watching the nature documentaries I leave on for him 😂 could help 🤷‍♀️


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## DrogoNevets (6 mo ago)

Hiya, so we have just started leaving Ziva alone at home for a time period (currently up to about 3-3.5hrs - we want to get to 5 for the extreme so we can get to the cinema/have a meal out).

She gets the run of the kitchen (our designated puppy zone) which is where her crate is. The crate is wedged open, so she can choose to go in and sleep if she wants.

Currently we have only tried this after her mid morning training session (we are currently working on loose lead walking/heel walking, so this usually involves a short, relaxed walk around the neighbourhood). So she is usually pretty tired and will sleep most of the time.

She gets a number of toys ranging from simple plushies to a bobalot (empty - usually, sometimes we surprise her - soooo cute on the camera!!), and some chews (which she never finishes these days, but does occupy her for some time - grrrr).

But more often than not she will sleep/rest. We are also really working on place at present so we can put her somewhere out of the way when we are unloading dishwasher etc (she nearly sliced her tounge open on ceramic knife she thought looked tasty) this is proving REALLY useful and she often sits on her bed (also in kitchen when we leave her there) just contemplating life.

The next step, will be for her to be left, not at this time point (eg in the afternoon) and see how she copes.

As you know, I work from home near 100% of the time. however when i work, i go properly down the rabbit hole of complex maths equations/computer coding for central government and wont resurface for a few hours, so this is REALLY important for me. The first month-6weeks I got nothing done, as wasnt aware how to leave her alone and was so stressed and depressed by it all (plus throw in puppy blues).

Sometimes, she does whinge that we've left her alone, but this soon subsides, and we've had to build it up gradually over a month to avoid the SepAnx. We started by placing her in puppy zone, and going to the car and watching 15mins of NCIS (we have a Tesla so Disney+ is available in the car). We now get to drive to a drive-thru starbucks, and do the same in a supermarket car park once or twice a week. 

We are certain the whinging it is more FOMO rather than SepAnx as its does stop quickly and show none of the other signs (we have a camera) eg it is whinging, not howling or barking, no pacing, will pick up a toy and throw it about and play etc.

But we could also do something else if we needed with the time - she'd never know.

In short, build it up super slowly, and make sure she knows that when you are away from her, bad stuff doesnt happen. I think this is key, _its bad stuff doesnt happen_, not strictly good stuff happens when you return (obvs say hello excitedly etc, but dont treat or anything or I guess they will learn they get a treat each time you go out, and expect it to get bigger the longer youve been away etc - even if you are SUPER proud of her for managing it).


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## DrogoNevets (6 mo ago)

Forgot to say, we have an echo dot in the kitchen and get Alexa to play Smooth Radio. Not sure if it helps, but we do notice she reacts to more noises outside if its not on. I even play it in my office at times so I feel like I am joining her in listening to is (fair warning, the station has a play list of about 20 songs a week so is a bit repetitive).

She would sit there and watch TV and does love Frozen Planet II at present (David Attenborough of course! - who doesnt love his voice?! national treasure) when we are with her trying to watch it (shes taken to sitting on my chest totally blocking my view). 

This is her yesterday, making sure the crate doesnt shut, but she had the choice of sleeping there, on her bed, or playing. She didnt originally have that many toys in there with her, shes put them there! Probably a pigs ear and a bully stick in there too.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Your pup and my pup are the same age. Keep in mind each pup’s development can vary. I’m retired, so I’m with the dogs most of the time.
Heifer has spent her first puppy months having to share me with other dogs. Sometimes together, and sometimes when dog get individual attention and the others are crated. Traveling out of town, being crated at night in unfamiliar places. Me handing the lead over to someone else, and her interacting with them.

Everything your puppy is doing, is completely normal. Just start small and work with her being happy while training. Most of the training, is really puppy games. We teach them to go back and forth between two people. It’s just high value treats, and happy voice. It can be done in a long hallway. After it’s learned, you teach it in other places, and increase the distance. Then you can teach her you coming back. It’s just one else holding the leash, you walking a short distance away, and then coming back to her. It does not matter if it’s 10 feet away. She is learning that you always come back.

I have never owned a separation anxiety dog, that I’ve raised from a pup. I adopted a senior that had separation anxiety, and had a foster here that needed some help to overcome his anxiety. The foster was mainly a overly spoiled dog. He had never had to learn how to deal with down time, or not getting his way. So I’m sure the couple of rules I placed on him, were upsetting to him. Caused some anxiety while he figured things out.
Edit 
Heifer has always been crated when I’m not home. Had a dog emergency with Shine last week. My husband was home with the other dogs. When he let Heifer out of the crate, she searched the house for me for the first 10 minutes. Once she was convinced I was not there, she was fine.


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## ivyinnc (5 mo ago)

My puppy is also 5months and is clued to me if I’m around her, as in she has to be touching me which isn’t always practical. We had worked for me so far, I work from home but she is crated certain parts of the day even when I’m home so that I can work but also so can learn to be ok alone. Since it’s a predictable time each day she doesn’t whine anymore. So she gets crated every morning 9-12. Then we do a lunch time play walk etc and I allow her to be out of the crate while I work the rest of the afternoon. She has just recently started to leave my office room and venture to the living room and chew bones. When we are sitting on the couch I make her sit apart from me, so she can be up on the couch but she has a blanket she must stay on, this took a lot of time bc she prefers to be next to me touching my leg or side. Then at night she is crated but is in my room so she can see me. During the day our upstairs is gated off and I go up and down to do chores and leave her downstairs at first she would wait for me at the gate but recently she had stopped doing that and she trust that I will come back.


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## Poppy'sHooman (6 mo ago)

texasred said:


> Most of the training, is really puppy games. We teach them to go back and forth between two people. It’s just high value treats, and happy voice. It can be done in a long hallway. After it’s learned, you teach it in other places, and increase the distance. Then you can teach her you coming back. It’s just one else holding the leash, you walking a short distance away, and then coming back to her. It does not matter if it’s 10 feet away. She is learning that you always come back.


We play this recall game as well, but the walking away and coming back is a great one to start. We do know that she's acting in a normal way and we understand the wanting us to all be together all the time. I just want to make sure that I start laying the groundwork now to prevent the separation anxiety in the future. And it can be tough to separate what some trainers say about "signs of separation anxiety" and parsing that from what you believe is the velcro nature. Thanks for the reassurance as always


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## Poppy'sHooman (6 mo ago)

ivyinnc said:


> My puppy is also 5months and is clued to me if I’m around her, as in she has to be touching me which isn’t always practical. We had worked for me so far, I work from home but she is crated certain parts of the day even when I’m home so that I can work but also so can learn to be ok alone. Since it’s a predictable time each day she doesn’t whine anymore. So she gets crated every morning 9-12. Then we do a lunch time play walk etc and I allow her to be out of the crate while I work the rest of the afternoon. She has just recently started to leave my office room and venture to the living room and chew bones. When we are sitting on the couch I make her sit apart from me, so she can be up on the couch but she has a blanket she must stay on, this took a lot of time bc she prefers to be next to me touching my leg or side. Then at night she is crated but is in my room so she can see me. During the day our upstairs is gated off and I go up and down to do chores and leave her downstairs at first she would wait for me at the gate but recently she had stopped doing that and she trust that I will come back.


This all seems super reasonable and I don't think too far off from what we've been doing. She sleeps in the crate every night but we got in the habit of letting her out around 5 and having her snuggle with us (originally it was her waking us up but now it's me half the time). She does 90% of her naps in the crate during the day, and the other times I will nap with her either on the couch or the bed if it's still super early. I've just recently implemented a strict crate time schedule with it happening at certain times and it's going well. I do move about the house no problem when doing chores, but it's a smaller flat so there isn't a ton of physical distance. Sounds like we're on the right track.


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## Poppy'sHooman (6 mo ago)

DrogoNevets said:


> Hiya, so we have just started leaving Ziva alone at home for a time period (currently up to about 3-3.5hrs - we want to get to 5 for the extreme so we can get to the cinema/have a meal out).
> 
> She gets the run of the kitchen (our designated puppy zone) which is where her crate is. The crate is wedged open, so she can choose to go in and sleep if she wants.
> 
> ...


Lots of great ideas here! I feel like you two are doing so well with Ziva in this area. Poppy does not chill in the place command and contemplate life, it is one of the areas she is currently fighting back at us. The set up of our place hasn't really allowed for her to have her own area where she could be trusted to be alone for hours (one large living/kitchen squares kind of place) but we're thinking about making our spare room/office more puppy friendly so that she could have a free reign space in the future. But my partner definitely does not trust her to be alone out of crate at the moment. I like the leaving for short times and making those longer and longer. I need to make up a schedule for myself and try it out. I can always sit in the building stairwell and read hahaha.


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## DrogoNevets (6 mo ago)

Poppy'sHooman said:


> Lots of great ideas here! I feel like you two are doing so well with Ziva in this area. Poppy does not chill in the place command and contemplate life, it is one of the areas she is currently fighting back at us. The set up of our place hasn't really allowed for her to have her own area where she could be trusted to be alone for hours (one large living/kitchen squares kind of place) but we're thinking about making our spare room/office more puppy friendly so that she could have a free reign space in the future. But my partner definitely does not trust her to be alone out of crate at the moment. I like the leaving for short times and making those longer and longer. I need to make up a schedule for myself and try it out. I can always sit in the building stairwell and read hahaha.


A puppy zone can be a play pen. It doesnt have to be a room. Our next door neighbour has a black lab that is 5 weeks older, and she gets a playpen. Her house is EXACTLY the same layout as ours. They've just chosen a pen over a room - likely because they have 2 younger children (approx 10yo) who are unlikely to shut doors behind them i think.


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