# Adjusting to Off-Leash Advice



## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

H still isn't able to be let of leash which is something that bothers me a lot. I wanted to get him through the defiant teenager phase before working a ton on off-leash so that it was likely to "click" better and he wouldn't challenge me as much. That being said, taking the advice of our trainer we started to work with him on a longer leash, then started progressing slowly through a variety of thinner/less noticeable "leashes" (rope, twine, etc) to ease him into his freedom while still having control. I'm not confident in his ability to be on these thinner lines and don't want to push it as he will definitely run off and I may never see him again. We've worked on his recall in the house and he's quite good at that, but out in the elements he gets extremely ballsy (for lack of a better word) and will ignore what I tell him if he catches the scent or sight of another animal which is why he must be kept on leash. I know a lot of people on here use e-collars but I'm very hesitant to use it with my soft boy who flinches and shudders at the mere shock from static build-up on the couch :'(

I know the off-leash discussion has been beat to death but I'm struggling to find a successful method to get H to be off-leash. Are there any other methods to look into that don't involve an e-collar that are suggested by the more knowledgeable folks of the forum? I feel like I'm failing my V by him not being able to run free because I cannot find a training method that works for us. I'd love to have him run free through the park and eventually take him into the field to see how he does.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

KB87,
Find someone who is very knowledgeable about an electronic collar to walk with you.

The one we use goes from 0.5 to 5.0 and in .5 steps. Put it on your wrist and have someone trigger it. I don't feel anything until about 2.0 the lower corrections are very light.

Bailey only wears one now when we hunt, otherwise we do hundreds of miles off leash. He wore it each time out for about a year.

But it takes knowledge that veteran dog trainers will be happy to share with you.

If you get one, get a good one with at least 1/2 mile range.

Read about how rattlesnake avoidance trainers use an e-collar.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/07/rattlesnake-adversion-training.html

My .02. It is like a gun. Nothing to fear if used correctly by a trained person.

RBD


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks for the info, RBD! I'll read up more on it and check out the ones that gradually go up in small steps. Our trainer specifically told us that she would avoid using an e-collar with him and to go with the method she laid out for us but...either I'm doing it wrong or it isn't clicking for him. The bottom line is that it isn't working and I feel a little desperate so anything is fair game at this point.


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## Carolina Blue (Sep 20, 2012)

I am in the same boat KB!

K has pretty good recall in the house, outside on a long line OR even at the off leash dog park - she comes! However, when at home and she feels like running - she does. My trainer suggested to continue to work with her on a long line, tell her to Come - keep running backwards - then tell her to sit - treat, treat, treat! Another technique is when she starts to run, tell her to come!; jump up and down, run in the other direction, waving your arms and basically carrying on like an out of control person. That did not work the other day when she took off and did not come back..but we will still work at it. I use the same technique when we are on our walks. I'm sure my neighbors think I'm nuts... :-\

I too have an ecollar and terrified that i will ruin her by using it incorrectly. Fortunately, the trainer i have is willing and has much experience with training with a collar..so that is our next step if I don't see an improvement. I know they are a hotly debated topic here and don't want to kick up a hornets nests on it, but in my opinion, when it comes down to the safety of my dog, I'm willing to learn from a professional how to use it correctly.


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

Out of curiosity- what is the highest level that you trained Bailey with to start? And what level do you keep it at when he's in the field?

There's a beautiful GSP down the street that wears an e-collar. His owner hunts him and constantly has his collar on so he's down to only needing a beep for a warning when in the neighborhood. However, his owner is every assertive and will give him a strong jolt if he acts up or doesn't listen. He's offered to let us try the collar on our boy but I really don't want someone with a heavy hand to do anything with my boy and I'd rather introduce him the right way. Any suggestions of where to look/how to find the right person e-collar knowledge? Is there a specific question I should keep in mind when talking to a trainer? The only people I know who use them are our neighbor and a training facility who works with pits who is e-collar obsessed and I've heard will push it way too far.


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## abatt (Jul 10, 2012)

I would like to hear about alternative training techniques as well. We have read conflicting info on ecollars and seizures. Since our pup has seizures we want to be on a safe side and avoid it.

We are still training with long lead. He is great on it, but once it is off the recall decreases dramatically.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Bailey responds at 3.0 and when he would get in hyper drive a 5.0 would be all that would work. Chloe at 1.0 used in rattlesnake training thought she was being shot but her recall has never been an issue. 

My favorite was when he'd chase cows. He'd get in hyper drive and when he'd get close to the cows I'd hit for just a second 5.0 a couple times or until he quit. I wouldn't say a thing but when he'd make his way back to me I'd calmly say, "Bailey, did those cows shock you? Maybe you should leave them alone." Didn't take long. In his mind the shock was associated to the chasing of cows and not me.

The stronger the prey drive the more it takes.

A high quality trainer told me the way to tell was start out very low and move up in steps. Watch the eyes. The eyes will show a twitch when they "feel" it. At 2.0 Bailey's eyes don't react at all. At 2.5 his eyes acknowledge that he feels it.

I would drive an hour every other Saturday each way for training with Bailey. Worth every dollar to have a pro who UNDERSTANDS Vizslas.

Post from June 9, 2009 He was one year old. I went for from the time he was 10 months until he was almost 2 years old.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/06/get-yourself-great-trainer.html

Hope that helps.

RBD


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

redbirddog said:


> Hope that helps.


You're a wealth of knowledge! Like many on here I'm afraid to do the "wrong" thing for my dog and want to go about something in the "right" way when trying something new for him. He's got a fabulous personality but does show fear to noises, some new situations and static shock so I don't want to exaggerate those at all if I can avoid it. With him being my first dog of a hunting breed I don't want to do him a disservice and go about it the wrong way.

I've reached out to a V breeder friend for some help in what step to take next and what resources she's aware of. Most trainers near Cleveland (where we are) don't know much about the breed and go about them all wrong, ie: shock collar cranked up to 10 or WAY too forceful for my liking. I'm such a nervous nelly about him running away at all (I'd die if he ran off) so I want to nip this in the bud. It's probably the worst time of the year to get a fire under my behind about this since we're already inches deep in snow, but I'll do anything for that pup so we'll work through winter on this. I'd love for him to be able to have more freedom next summer.


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

I felt the same way with Miles. He is so sensitive I was against using an E collar, but now we love it. 

I do a lot of trail running, and it's pretty dangerous to run on lead on a steep rocky trail. He responds to tone, we rarely need the shock function. Smart dogs. 

We have just begun using it on Chase too. He already knew what tone meant from watching Miles and we are still in the training phases with the shock stimulation. 

Both our dogs are on Level 1 most of the time unless we are on new exciting trails I will put it up to 2 because M is more distracted. 

I completely understand how you feel about using one, before we had a dog I never ever thought we would need it. Now I can't imagine losing that sense of security.


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## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

Leash? 

oh Yes when we were leaving ;D

Jenn got the Reds Hooked up For The Ride and Rig"


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

organicthoughts said:


> KB87 said:
> 
> 
> > redbirddog said:
> ...


OT, that's exactly what my concern has been with my training but you confirmed it.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/12/faith-based-vizsla-training.html

I regularly would play "hide behind a tree" on our walks when the dogs were young and out ahead of me. I would just find a big tree and wait behind it when they didn't see me do it. Sometimes I'd wait five minutes. They would eventually come back and find me.

It is my firm belief that it is my dog's responsibility to know where I am and not mine to know where they are. Maybe it was my upbringing where at 6 years old I'd play along the creeks a mile or so from home. No one seemed to worry about me. It was my responsibility to find my way home in time for dinner.

My kids are sure not that way with my grandkids!

Happy trails,

RBD


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## Carolina Blue (Sep 20, 2012)

RBD - you sparked my memory of what happened yesterday - 

KB - have you had H to an off leash dog park?? I just had K to one yesterday. I found it truly amazing that she always seemed to know where I was.. but when I moved, she was almost in a panic looking for me. Once I realized what was happening, I started moving on purpose. She would go to some the other women there thinking it was me - they would reach down to her and she would take off - Hey! You're not my mom! Then I call her her - boom! right at my feet she would be. Now she does not do that at home outside, but it was a good exercise for both of us.


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

CarolinaBlue, good advice. I do try to do that with him at the park but it's a pretty square space so he's able to keep his eyes on me at all times. I have noticed that he has recently started to check in on me more which I try to encourage, but being that there's a no treats policy it makes it difficult since he's so food driven and food = reward in his mind.

OT, I've been trying to find a place that has space where he and I can work on this. I grew up on a 350 acre farm but not an inch of that farm is fenced! I've been trying the dog park at different times of the day to see when it's empty so we can work on his recall there where it's safe. I think the dead of winter is going to be my best bet, but if it's all that I can get then I'll take it! If no other dogs are there then I'll be able to use treats as well which I think will help encourage the process.


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## SteelCityDozer (Aug 25, 2011)

I just wanted to throw in my teeny bit of info. 

Abatt- we use an ecollar on Dozer who is epileptic and our vet neurologist said it was fine. I will also add though that Dozer mostly responds to the beep noise and rarely gets an actual shock. 

I've been wearing an ecollar on Penny on and off for quite a while but haven't put a whole lot of training into it. She's has awesome recall at home even I the yard so I wanted to go out and test her it. Took her to a nearly enclosed baseball field where she has NEVER been anywhere near. For the most part she kept checking back on her own. I forgot to bring treats bug lucky for me, affection is more important to her. Then finally she was distracted and not responding to my voice so I hit the beep, noise not sound, shouted come and she came full speed at me to a perfect sit. So we don't even need the shock mostly. I just like to train that the beep means come. On case we are too far apart for yelling. But try to reward the dog for checking in. This will help immensely. And try not to overwork the COME command. They won't want to come back over and over for no reason. Nor will they if it always means time to leash up and go home. So just be cautious of that. 

Good luck.


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## Lyndam (Aug 22, 2013)

Ruby is 6 months and ATM she us pretty good, not good enough to be free too near a road but I'm confident she'll come back to call or whistle ATM . However I am aware she's not yet a teenager.....
She's been free / called in in our safe walking place since a young pup when i could catch her if she ignored me . I've used whatever worked at whatever stage, treats, hiding, changing direction and latterly I reinforce her first thought to come to me as soon as I see the response she gets a big fat YES!! It seems to get her over the seconds consideration whether she can ignore me. I call her in for no reason other that a pet up and the release back to play or at certain regular points of the walk she comes to walk a few hundred yards on lead. I don't want her to think that coming back always curtails her fun but also when I want her on the lead I stick to that routine. 
I also try to not fail. If I wait til the car is insight she sometimes has chosen to avoid the lead to avoid the car so on the return to the car it's lead on 5 minutes away when she us happy to come . 
For a while other dogs won her attention but now she plays but returns to my call. 
I'd use an electric collar if I needed to to keep her safe but so far so ok 
I do agree that it's important to be/act confident. I had to pretend that for a while during her playing up on her leash stage. Make her sit and then set off again giving off the vibe I was holding a dog that would walk well. Eventually she started to believe me ...
They are so lovely running free that its worth all this effort . You will get there and no doubt I ll have a stroppy madam who pushes me in a few months .


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

I just bought a new, longer cord online- one that I have more faith in so hopefully it will help with my confidence. I think I just need to start fresh again and try it in another space with new equipment instead of just our back yard. If it weren't deer season I'd take him out to the farm this week to work with him but we'll have to hold off a bit. I've been afraid to give him that much room for fear that he'll run off into the woods and that will be the end of it. OT, I think you're exactly right- I need to give him a chance to let him be how he was intended to be out in the open since he hasn't yet had the chance. I'd feel 100% better with a fence but we'll try it with what I have in front of me first.

I may look into getting an ecollar to see if I can get him to work only with the beep since I think the shock will send him off the deep end. If I can get him to understand and respond to the beep I think that would work best for us and make me feel better about it.

For the record- this forum is the best around!!


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

A life off lead - the only life 4 a V - starts at home - here & whoa - the 2 commands they never ignore - if the pup is looking at me - hand signals - if not - whistle & then hand signals - E-collar love them - train the way you want - but after all these years - it is simple - 1-2-1 - you & the pup - as few distractions as possible - TRUST is BUILT - a dog park is no place 2 train !!!!


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

Haeden will do anything I say if I have a treat in my hand so that's how I need to do things for the first while and keep using his clicker since he'll do anything if I use it. If I say "come" he'll sometimes turn a deaf ear but if I tell him "come now" then he's right at my feet or where I point him to be. Apparently I need to tell him when I need him to listen and he'll do it  He's exceptionally willing to please but will ignore me if something else catches his eye until I yell loud enough or go after him. I'm learning I need to stand my ground and make him come to me and only tell him once to come. When he doesn't that's when I kind of panic and I think throws off all of this training.

I'll skip an empty dog park- point taken. It's literally the only place I know of with a fence and open space where I can try to work him. I'll give wide open space with a longer check cord a go and report back after we get the hang of it this winter. I hate having to keep him on a leash by me when we go out for a walk- I want nothing more for him than to explore and enjoy being a V. This off-leash thing has been the biggest challenge we've faced yet but we're going to overcome it sooner than later. My dad keeps reminding me that I owe it to my bird dog to let him run free and he's exactly right. I may ask my dad if we can come spend the day with him to see what techniques he wants to share with this hurdle. It's been a long time since he's had his bird dogs but I'm sure he's still got it- I can see the way he looks at Haeden and I know he misses having them.


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## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

I have no experience or opinion on the e-collars, so here are a few other ideas.

If you are really, really afraid of never seeing H again, you might check into those GPS trackers that go on collars and track on your smartphone or some other device. They seem to have a monthly fee, but it may be that it gives you the confidence you need. If you go this route, let us know how you like it. I've never seen one in action.

I like your idea about another space. Savannah ranges much, much further from me when she is in a familiar setting.

You might look around your area for schools that have big, fenced athletic areas. There is almost always a sign posted that leashes are required, but there are also almost always times when no one is using the space - especially in the dead of winter. Take a friend to help you in case other people arrive and you need to leash H quickly. And just to say it - make sure you pick up after any messes so there is no cause for off-leash complaints.

Along the idea of using fenced areas, find a fenced tennis court that has a set of woods nearby. A community park or city park might have a couple. Let H off leash in the court and walk towards the woods. Don't scare him by stepping out of sight, just see if he watches you while the distractions from the woods are ongoing. My guess is that as soon as you step outside of the fence his eyes will be glued on you.

Pay attention to the wind direction. If it is blowing hard, H may not be able to hear your call. I have an arm signal I use with Savannah that she can see from WAAAAY off. I also have a whistle that she can sometimes hear better than my voice. Make sure you are staging for success even when the environment isn't.

Lastly, even after you are comfortable with H off leash, remember to review the training periodically with him.

Good luck!


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## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

Athletic Fields in most parts and places are laced with Very Bad Chemicals Moss killers fertilizers and a few that can kill or reduce Reds 

that's why there so fine and green 

The Mates Pads are the fast way to the blood streams and cells and entry For are Reds"


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## Carolina Blue (Sep 20, 2012)

Carolina said:


> RBD - you sparked my memory of what happened yesterday -
> 
> KB - have you had H to an off leash dog park?? I just had K to one yesterday. I found it truly amazing that she always seemed to know where I was.. but when I moved, she was almost in a panic looking for me. Once I realized what was happening, I started moving on purpose. She would go to some the other women there thinking it was me - they would reach down to her and she would take off - Hey! You're not my mom! Then I call her her - boom! right at my feet she would be. Now she does not do that at home outside, but it was a good exercise for both of us.


Just a note, I'm not training at the dog park..just a casual observation that I noticed. No, I do not like them..this one is better than most being 5 acres so we do have an area to ourself. It is just a place where we can practice off leash recall in a safe area.

Adding: another note..people at the park use it as a social time for themselves and not watching or cleaning up after their dog has taken a huge poo. Socializing is not my purpose. I know everything and every dog K has tried to engage in play. I have my eye on her at all times. Good learning tool for me in how she really is without being attached to me on a leash.


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

You may also try hiking him off leash with dogs that are well trained off lead. 

Chase's brother is working on off lead training and he will come with us hiking and he stays right with Miles and Chase. Chase is very good for a 6 month puppy off leash, likely because he follows Miles and copies him with commands.


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