# Fighting with a friend?



## Watson (Sep 17, 2012)

A little background: Watson is almost 14 months now and still intact. We have a friend who also has a 13 month old intact golden. They have played together well since they were both puppies. Watson is a very sweet dog and has never shown any signs of aggression or anything but love for other dogs. He has corrected a couple of dogs who have tried to mount him, but only a correction which was read clearly by the other dogs who then left him alone. He is very social and although we don’t go to dog parks, he does get plenty of off leash time with other dogs randomly. 

The golden is also a very sweet dog, but has not been socialized well. He’s played with two other dogs besides Watson his entire life. He is very confident in his play, and doesn’t seem to have learned the rules just yet. 

About a month ago, we got together for an off-leash play and they played well for a bit, but we noticed the golden was still behaving very much like a puppy - hard biting, paws in face etc. Watson got extremely angry at this and went after the golden, bared teeth, almost screaming at him. I pulled him off of him and noticed Watson had a raised gash of fur on his side that was about 1.5ft long. I can only assume that was a tooth that dug into his side which set him off. The golden did not back down when Wats went after him and actually kept coming back to paw/play/bite some more. Watson did not get to the point of biting him which I was thankful for. We let them hang out for a few more minutes and they were fine. 

Shortly after that, we ran into each other outside, and as soon as the golden jumped up on him, Watson started low growling. I pulled him off and put him in a sit. We went towards them again, Watson casually walks towards the golden, lifts his leg and tries to mark him. Again I pull him off and we go our separate ways.

This morning on our walk we ran into them again. Same thing, this time Watson’s hackles go up, growling, and I can tell he isn’t going to be nice to the golden. I apologize and we left. 

I’m not sure what’s going on here. Is this two intact males very similar in age trying to figure things out? Does Watson just not want to tolerate the way the golden plays? Obviously I’d like to avoid bringing him around this particular dog, but I’m wondering if this is something I need to worry about if we run into other intact males (we have but they’ve been older and there were no problems). We also plan on keeping him intact until he's two.

Any input is welcome.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I would have let Watson finish the correction the first time and not ran in to grab him. A good chance they would have worked it out and the golden would have learned when to stop.


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## Watson (Sep 17, 2012)

Thanks TexasRed. 

We did let them have it out for about a minute. The golden just would not stop and I was afraid that it would escalate into a bite. We didn't leash them and leave. We agreed with the other owner that it was just a correction, and let them play for a bit longer at which point they were fine.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Watching for the signs for males to figure out where they rank in the "pack" is interesting to me. Here was from last year.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2012/08/in-this-corner-intact-male-vizslas.html

In this corner, 
1 year - 4 months old, 
weighing in at 61 pounds,
24" to top of the shoulders.....
Intact male Hungarian Pointer.............TOBI

In this corner, 
4 years - 2 months old, 
weighing in at 60 pounds,
23.5 inches to top of shoulders....
intact male Hungarian Pointer........BAILEY

Bailey and Tobi have been going on walks in the hills now for six months from time to time. Tobi's owners are first time dog people and are really great with their dog.

About a month ago, on our walks, I started noticing Tobi starting to "test" Bailey. It was the little things an intact male will do to test his new "doghood". I told the owners that one day the two dogs would have to work it out. This type of behavior repeated itself over maybe five walks.

Two weeks ago, on a walk in the hills with Chloe and another female Vizsla, it was the day. I could almost tell from the start that it would be this morning that the testosterone would kick in and things would be settled. I mentioned this to Tobi's owner as the walk began.


After a great 90 minute walk in the Sunol Regional Park it was "put up or shut up" time between Bailey and Tobi.

I'll let Tobi's owner explain: ( I had asked her to put it in her words)

" In regards to Tobi and Bailey “working it out”…
I had noticed the challenge brewing over the past few walks, so even though you’re never totally prepared, I was sort of waiting for it to happen. I know that Tobi had been challenging Bailey…waiving the stick in front of him and trying to assert his strength. To be honest, I was still worried, but having walked with you and Bailey countless times gave me confidence that Bailey would show Tobi (still the puppy) his place and then back off; not “go in for the kill” so to speak. That is why I did not feel the need to step in. You and I may differ slightly on our opinion of this, but I probably would’ve reacted differently had it been a dog and/or owner that I don’t know. I don’t think I would have been comfortable, or felt the need, to let Tobi work it out with a strange dog. That being said, it was over rather quickly and Bailey backed off as soon as Tobi whimpered…and then they went on their way. Do I trust that all dogs would back off? Unfortunately, no. So I would still be somewhat protective of my dog in an unknown situation."

Just walked with Tobi, Chloe and Bailey last night. First time since. The boys were fine. NO posturing or testing. Just a pack of Hungarian Pointers enjoying the hills on an off-leash walk.

Ain't nature great!


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

TexasRed said:


> I would have let Watson finish the correction the first time and not ran in to grab him. A good chance they would have worked it out and the golden would have learned when to stop.


Agreed, 
It is dangerous to distract a dog's attention even when marking on appropriate things. 
When disputes arize, they may miss some if the lightning fast signals they give each other and could get into trouble even more. A little posturing never hurt anyone. 

I read that when a dog marks over a female, it means it is willing to protect the area with his life. Pretty serious if the dogs are evenly matched.


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

Miles has a best friend Golden Retriever too. At about a year old for both dogs, the Golden started posturing over Miles, and they had a few spats. I wouldn't say we did anything amazingly ground breaking, just time outs and monitoring them closely when they were together. They outgrew it and they are fine now.


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## Watson (Sep 17, 2012)

Thank you for the replies. 

RBD: I was hoping to hear from you. So thank you, especially for sharing TOBI's owner's side. I feel similar to her in that I was worried it would go too far.

I know all of this is normal and fine, but part of me feels like I don't want Watson to have to be the one to correct this dogs behaviour, since he doesn't seem to get it. 

I'm happy that Wats is the way he is, openly friendly, but will also stand up for himself. I'll let them work it out on their own in the future and trust that both dogs will come out better because of it.


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## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

This is nothing more then light postering

all Nut Crackers try it. 

Bolstering its not even close to a fight or a war. 

Many want spot one. 

and most cases they work it out

unless your holding ears and blood 

there kids having fun

searching for the top doggy dog position

and I am not talking about true waring breeds

them year 1 hold risks not just fun

We face this some every opening bird season with uncut males

they work it out

Or I tame both real fast

as the Hunt is on

not fight night.

Even baby Willow will go at times

and not baby stuff her voice and snaps are real

I bring her in real fast

None of these great dogs are close to Warriors

More fluff then Puff 

but that being said

Big Ruds got 2 clean kills on song dogs ;D


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

On the other hand, something to consider, if the dogs are eavenly matched.... it is our responsibility to manage stress and for the most part the how far interactions between dogs can go. 

In nature, if the combination of dogs is not compatible, one of them leaves to join or form a new pack. In our homes, they are trapped and cannot do this. Thus it becomes our responsibility to care of our dogs to protect them from the stress and danger of dog fights.

I try to avoid to "just let them sort it out" if we're never going to see them again or meet only once a month. In these cases if I sense incompatibility, I move on, or focus the dog on me (tha undisputed pack leader of my dogs  ) 

So, no I would not sort it out, just to prove my boy's is bigger, LOL. Makes no more sense to me than me fighting the other dog owner for territory. 

I like to move the pack forward, that way there is less time to focus on each other and more time to experience new sights, smells and experiences together. 

An interesting tactic I once saw, the trainer put the incompatible dogs in one enclosed area and scared them or presented them with a challenge, so that they experienced the same emotions together... in that case, fear, and soon learned to relied on each other for support. 
Those two dogs had to live together and after a few sessions, slept in each other's arms.


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## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

hook and hold


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