# New puppy Hunter



## vangtt (Feb 27, 2014)

I just got Hunter on 3/1/2014. He just turned 8 weeks today. Here's a video of him sort of going on point.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Nice looking pup. 
He's stalking the wing and that's good.
He's learning you can't catch them that way.
In no time he will be pointing it, before the stalk.


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## vangtt (Feb 27, 2014)

What I've found is that after awhile (and maybe I'm keep this game up longer than I should) he will get discouraged and just ignore the bird feather. So what I've started to do is wait until he pauses just momentarily...then swing it up & land a few feet away and say Good Boy! and let him grab it. I haven't really read anything on hunting yet so this is just my goofing around with him for now. Does this sound like a good or bad idea?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Wing on a string is fine for a week or two, and then put it up. Its just a puppy game. I don't think the pup learns much from it, but it sure is cute to see them point and stalk the wing.
Keep everything short and sweet to keep him interested.

The book Training with Mo, is a good easy ready. Plus its hard to mess a pup up using his training methods.
Perfect Start and later Perfect Finish are great DVDs.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Break 2 bird - break 2 gun - ASAP - V's never tire of a challenge - nature of the breed - keep training short & fun - PIKE @ 5yrs - pick up a bumper 4 land water or blind - he could not V happier - the hard part is knowing what the the pup needs & what you want - just a balancing act !


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## vangtt (Feb 27, 2014)

Hi folks,

So I've started investing in some training gear and videos. I ended up getting the perfect start/finish videos that TexasRed suggested. So far very informative. I've gone thru the first two videos (perfect start) once. Maybe I missed it but what is the benefit of starting with quail and then pigeons for training?


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm not sure if you're asking why not start with pigeons or why switch later. If the first, I don't have enough experience to answer other than to say that quail are an easy bird for a younger dog to handle. If the second it's because they can start catching even strong flying quail. 

That's where I am now. Scout won't point as intensely or stay as steady as she will for bigger birds because she's excited to pounce. I need to convert my quail pen for homers and find a breeder.


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## vangtt (Feb 27, 2014)

I am asking both . Thanks for your reply. Have you gotten Scout to the point where you are actually shooting and letting him retrieve? If not what do you mean by easier to handle? I am most likely going to try the methods in the DVD I mentioned, and I don't think I am supposed to let the dog catch a live bird at all.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Intellectual property removed by Author


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

I agree with Ken. 

The first time, I use quail and just let the pup have fun with the quail, chase it around play, whatever. I don't use corturnix, but only because they aren't that available around here. But they are a perfect for what you are trying to establish. . To really build that prey drive, and just let pup realize that this bird thing is a blast. 
Then I start to get some good flying quail set them out and get pup into them, and having them fly off. Then you can move into pigeons, or whatever. 
Like Ken said, pup can do no wrong. 

Do not hurry pup, for something he is not ready for. Do not push gunfire on him on him as problems can develop down the line if he isn't ready for it. Training with Mo is a great book, btw.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

einspänner said:


> I'm not sure if you're asking why not start with pigeons or why switch later. If the first, I don't have enough experience to answer other than to say that quail are an easy bird for a younger dog to handle. If the second it's because they can start catching even strong flying quail.
> 
> That's where I am now. Scout won't point as intensely or stay as steady as she will for bigger birds because she's excited to pounce. I need to convert my quail pen for homers and find a breeder.


Hae you killed quail for Scout recently? Kinda sounds like Scout could use some quail killed for her. I found that if I repeatedly used pigeons or whatever, and didn't reward the dog with a killed bird, they would kinda sour on them... Not quite sour on them, but kinda go half-ass through the motions like a "gee, do I have to do this" attitude. Kill a few birds for them and the intensity returns. Heck, I'll pull quail heads off and reward them for standing steady by letting them eat a quail head. Sis loves them.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Scout has had birds shot for her to retrieve. I don't actually own a gun, so I'm relying on group training sessions with NAVHDA for that. I know, I know I need to get a gun if I want a gundog. 
I'm sure that's part of the issue too. Once she realized shooting the birds was part of the game, it couldn't be too much fun just watching them fly off in our own training. Steadiness training away from birds should help too, but I haven't done anything really since her test. That plus pigeons in launchers is my next step. 

vangtt, I used a mixture of methods from Perfect Start and Training with Mo. They worked well for my at the time 9 month old. No doubt they work even better with a younger pup as intended.


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## MeandMy3 (Feb 27, 2013)

@einspänner

a little off topic, but I just have to tell you that you inspire me! I have never been a huge fan of hunting (gasp!), but I love my gundogs and watching them work. Reading some of your posts inspired me to sign one of our dogs up for group training sessions at the local retrievers club. They assured me I would not be responsible for shooting anything and I didn't have to even hold a gun.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

einspänner said:


> Scout has had birds shot for her to retrieve. I don't actually own a gun, so I'm relying on group training sessions with NAVHDA for that. I know, I know I need to get a gun if I want a gundog.
> I'm sure that's part of the issue too. Once she realized shooting the birds was part of the game, it couldn't be too much fun just watching them fly off in our own training. Steadiness training away from birds should help too, but I haven't done anything really since her test. That plus pigeons in launchers is my next step.
> 
> vangtt, I used a mixture of methods from Perfect Start and Training with Mo. They worked well for my at the time 9 month old. No doubt they work even better with a younger pup as intended.


I try to shoot at least a bird a session for the dogs. I'll shoot them in different scenarios too. Shoot a bird for the dog when it's backing, for example really tightens up the intensity in the dog. Shooting birds for them really rewards them for a job well done, and tightens em up real nice. That way they don't sour on the birds. Really easy fix. Good luck!


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## hobbsy1010 (Jun 4, 2011)

Nice vid, please enjoy...,

http://youtu.be/F_wm7VxvB0k

Hobbsy


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

hobbsy1010 said:


> Nice vid, please enjoy...,
> 
> http://youtu.be/F_wm7VxvB0k
> 
> Hobbsy


That was awesome! I can see what a thrill it would be to have your dog do that. Thanks for the link.


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## vangtt (Feb 27, 2014)

@einspanner - that's what I may try too. I also bought the book at TexasRed's suggestion. I've only read the intro and the first few pages of 1 so far. Then I switched over to the videos (I learn better visually). But from what I've gathered the two methods vary drastically in development speed. How do you personally implement the two methods?


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm not the best person to ask, but I guess I looked at what is similar in their methods. They both emphasize positive training that is adaptive to the individual dog and use the same tools (check cord, pinch collar, blank gun, launcher, and e-collars). Of those I've actually only invested in a check cord, but I'll probably add in some other things when the money is there. Another thing they agree on is that it takes birds more than anything else to make a bird dog. That's where I put my money and I built a quail pen so I'd have them handy. 
I liked the way Perfection Kennels introduced birds. The progression from letting the dog see and smell the bird in the safety of your hand to eventually planting it and letting them find it made sense to me, but I liked Mo's concept of getting power over the bird by letting the pup catch a few. The quail would recall to my garage and Scout would catch them and bring them to me. In the field, I kept her on check cord so the quail could get away. 
For gun intro if I remember, Perfect Start would toss frozen birds or something and have someone else fire the blank. Mo's method of introducing it while the dog chases down a flushed bird made more sense to me. 
I haven't done much else training wise other than to give her tons of bird exposure, so moving on the formal training I'll have to evaluate their methods more. For one they probably differ on their use of the whoa command. Mo trains "stand" and uses some methods that would probably be too harsh for my dog. So evaluate what makes sense to you and go with that. I know that's a bit vague. I'll have to look over those materials again and refresh my memory. 

thanks for the advice, V-John! I'm not worried about the behavior so much. I'm definitely going at a slower pace than most would, but I've seen good work from her in bits and pieces and I know I can bring more of that out if I put the time in.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

vangtt said:


> @einspanner - that's what I may try too. I also bought the book at TexasRed's suggestion. I've only read the intro and the first few pages of 1 so far. Then I switched over to the videos (I learn better visually). But from what I've gathered the two methods vary drastically in development speed. How do you personally implement the two methods?


The methods are a bit different... So my advice to you is to pick a method that works for you and stick with it. Often times, confusion can be caused in the dog by using different methods. Mo is a great dog man. I've met him, and text him on occasion. His book is very straightforward and simple. He does not implement "whoa" but rather allowing the bird to teach the dog. His gun-intro technique, is great. If your dog has prey drive, which it sounds like it does, you will not have issues with the gun. 

I've seen the videos, and still continue to train and will continue to work all of my dogs using Mo's method. His is a calm, gentle method. He is deaf, so there is no yelling whoa, or anything like that. Just a good method to use, IMO.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

You don't want to overload a pup with all different methods at the same time, but knowing them can help tremendously when you run into a road block on training. Just as people learn differently at stages, so do dogs.
Most of the time its go back to a step that the dog has already learned. Or give the dog a week off of training and then restart. The break can give them a fresh outlook.
Just about anything that can be trained with treats as a puppy, can be transitioned over to other pressure. Be it, check cord, slip collar, hand signals, whistle, even ecollar.



> Mo trains "stand" *and uses some methods that would probably be too harsh for my dog*


You are probably referring to spinning the dog.
Yes, it depends on the dog (not puppy), its level of training, and how much experience they have had with birds. I would never do it to a dog that is not overly confident, and has not had plenty of experience on birds. 
Cash has been spun, but my females have not.
It does not hurt them, but it sure does surprise them.
Again its not for young puppies, its for dogs that are confident in the field with birds.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Spinning a dog, in my opinion is much less harsh then many many other things that I have seen advocated in other methods. Spinning a dog, like Texas stated is more of a surprise to the dog. You are taking them out of their comfort zone. Spinning a dog is like a last resort. You don't do it regularly, but rather if the dog is blowing you off on purpose, or something of that nature. It doesn't hurt them, just surprises them and makes them think that you mean business. 

Edit: Some, if not most dogs don't even need to have this done. It's not a regular method of correction, but rather one to get their attention.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Exactly
That's why hard headed, strong willed, dominant Cash had it done as a attention getter, and why my other two dogs have never been spun.


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## vangtt (Feb 27, 2014)

einspänner said:


> I'm not the best person to ask, but I guess I looked at what is similar in their methods. They both emphasize positive training that is adaptive to the individual dog and use the same tools (check cord, pinch collar, blank gun, launcher, and e-collars). Of those I've actually only invested in a check cord, but I'll probably add in some other things when the money is there. Another thing they agree on is that it takes birds more than anything else to make a bird dog. That's where I put my money and I built a quail pen so I'd have them handy.
> I liked the way Perfection Kennels introduced birds. The progression from letting the dog see and smell the bird in the safety of your hand to eventually planting it and letting them find it made sense to me, but I liked Mo's concept of getting power over the bird by letting the pup catch a few. The quail would recall to my garage and Scout would catch them and bring them to me. In the field, I kept her on check cord so the quail could get away.
> For gun intro if I remember, Perfect Start would toss frozen birds or something and have someone else fire the blank. Mo's method of introducing it while the dog chases down a flushed bird made more sense to me.
> I haven't done much else training wise other than to give her tons of bird exposure, so moving on the formal training I'll have to evaluate their methods more. For one they probably differ on their use of the whoa command. Mo trains "stand" and uses some methods that would probably be too harsh for my dog. So evaluate what makes sense to you and go with that. I know that's a bit vague. I'll have to look over those materials again and refresh my memory.
> ...


I am seriously considering raising some quail. What do you all think about Bobwhite quails? A guy is selling a 4x12 johnny house with 40 for a decent price. I have a fenced in back yard and this is where I'd set it up. However, I live in the suburbs so I was thinking of doing all of the bird training in a nearby field (~1 mile away) on the edge of the city. Sounds like quails can be taught to recall but I'd imagine only if you're set up in the country? Would they actually fly back into the city to the johnny house like Homing Pigeons do? Where do you do your quail training?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

No they won't fly back like homers. Your johnny house has to be close by.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

A J house only works with birds in the house and within the distance the loose birds can hear the covey up coo - on wild birds at the end of the day - the SWEETEST sound you will ever hear !!!!!! the covey up COO !!! trust me on this !!!!!


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm also in the suburbs and only the quail released in my backyard would return, usually by the next day. Lost quail is a cost you have to eat. I really enjoyed raising them though. They're quiet, relatively clean, and you'll get eggs out of them this time of year. 

They do make portable recall pens and maybe if you kept a male in there and brought it out to the field you'd recover some, but it's unlikely.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

einspänner said:


> I'm also in the suburbs and only the quail released in my backyard would return, usually by the next day. Lost quail is a cost you have to eat. I really enjoyed raising them though. They're quiet, relatively clean, and you'll get eggs out of them this time of year.
> 
> They do make portable recall pens and maybe if you kept a male in there and brought it out to the field you'd recover some, but it's unlikely.


Agree. Fortunately, we have permission to run the dogs on plenty of ground, so that isn't an issue. So when we use quail, we eat the cost, or shoot them and eat the bird. 

Pigeons we have plenty of those. We race our pigeons so we have plenty of well bred pigeons to work with.


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