# Intestinal perforation and RMBs



## viszlanewluv (Oct 29, 2011)

Hi Everyone, we bring home our Vizsla next week and we can't wait! I have been reading about BARF, Raw, RMB diet and I would like to go there, but I have a few concerns.
Should I be worried about intestinal perforation with raw chicken bones? I remember (20 years ago) you shouldn't feed dogs chicken bones.
Is it really bad to feed kibble mixed with BARF? I read about the length of time to digest and the bacteria issue. This worries me since I think this is the easiest to assure our dog is getting the right nutrients and also give raw food.
Has anyone ever asked their butcher to grind the bones? I'm not sure I want to buy a meat grinder or if I'm able to keep all the parts clean between use.
Finally, Orijen puppy food, thumbs up, thumbs down?
....ok, I'm sounding more of a fanatic than I am. Maybe I have read too much. Please let me know if I'm over evaluating.....!


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## Evelyn (Mar 5, 2011)

I fed my vizsla Orijen puppy food and i was cautioned before about the food being rich in protein thus not so suitable for puppies because they may gain too much weight and end up being overweight puppies......From my experience my pup was a bit on the heavier side eventhough he was exercised a lot....so I had to adjust the serving amount accordingly.....I think it's a high quality dog food but you just have to keep monitoring the weight gain and making sure your pup doesnt get too fat. As for BARF/raw diet never tried before so can't give any input....good luck and enjoy your pup! They grow up very fast!


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

you can get a HIGH quality grinder on Amazon for under 200 bucks!


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## DixiesMom (Feb 5, 2009)

I believe the issue with chicken bones is that once COOKED, the splinter dangerously. 

Doesn't the BARF/raw diet call for chicken necks, wings or backs? These are smaller bones and crush easily. My girls are eagerly awaiting the turkey neck to be divvied up.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

That's how i read it, cooked bones BAD raw bones GREAT!
i'm sure there are instantces that dogs get sick from them or choke but so can we, accidents do happen.

I've watched a stray cat at the Winghouse eat a drummet in about 30seconds flat! cooked! wanted more, not his first rodeo.


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## Vespasia (Apr 19, 2010)

Hey Vizslanewluv,

Looks like most of your questions have been answered already, but I thought I'd just add that I don't see much point or benefit from conbining kibble and BARF into a single diet for your V. I certainly understand feeing kibble and occassionally treating with a raw bone (and yes, use soft bones like necks, backs, etc. because they are easy to break: don't feed your dog a "weight bearing" bone like a leg), but if you are serious about a BARF diet, there are lots of other things besides kibble you can use to supplement the diet to ensure that your V is getting all their nutrients.

It takes some time to build up your knowledge and confidence to take control of your dog's diet and feed RAW, but there are people on this forum - like me! - who feed raw and can certainly help!


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## moonbowsmommy (Dec 14, 2011)

Vespasia,

I also am bringing home my puppy in a couple weeks and we are totally on board with the raw diet HOWEVER we were thinking that we'd start out the first couple of days weaning him off the breeder's kibble and on to another puppy kibble. Fromm or Orijen. Then once he's ready to digest regular dog food (a bit older) we'd start transitioning to the Raw diet. We still don't have the confidence to go with it right away. I feel like I need to ease into this for two reasons. 1. I am a vegetarian of 15 years and haven't bought meat in 20 years. I'm slowly learning more about meat, where to get it, quality, prices etc... and 2. I want to know more about how to do this right. Which supplements he'll need... calcium, fish oil, probiotics, immune blends etc... research has shown that each dog is a little different and will respond accordingly to certain foods and such. So I guess I wanted to wait to see what kinds of things he likes and get a better idea of what he might need more or less of. 

what do you recommend?

Huge Thanks!


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

Here is a sample menu for your puppy—for this menu we will use a 20 pound puppy as the model.

Health Care

Healthcare 
Price Varies 
Leerburg offers a variety of supplements and vitamins you can give to your dog. The variety we have is expansive--you're bound to find something that will help improve your dog's health. 







Breakfast

½ to 1 Pound of meaty bones (chicken necks, chicken backs, wings, pork neck bones)

1 tsp. Kelp/Alfalfa mix 

Salmon Oil 

1/2 tsp. Super C powder 
1 Vitamin E Soft Gel 
Lunch

4 oz. Ground or chunk muscle meat (hamburger, ground turkey, chicken hearts and gizzards, beef heart, venison, elk, rabbit, etc.).

1/2 tsp. Super C powder 
Dinner

4 oz. Ground or chunk meat (can use canned salmon or mackerel instead)

2 Tbls. Veggies (kale, spinach, carrots, squash, green beans, sweet potatoes, celery)

Salmon Oil 

1/2 tsp. Super C powder 
1 Vitamin E Soft Gel 

This is for a 20lb puppy so adjust it, but it's what i'm going to base my "puppy raw" feeding on.

this was from a very nice GSD website but i'm sure it's the same for all pup's not just those.


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## Vespasia (Apr 19, 2010)

Hey Moonbowsmommy,

I certainly understand you wanting to slowly ween your pup off kibble and onto a raw diet slowly, both for the good of your dog's digestion AND to make sure you are 100% comfortable with the raw food before you proceed. That is EXACTLY what I did as well....I knew from the day I brought Hally home that the long term plan would be for her to eat raw food, but I didn't really start (just experimented a little) until she was almost 8 months - there's been no turning back since though!

There are a lot of different opinions and thoughts on how exactly you should feed raw. For example, should you feed ground meat or raw meaty bones or both? Should you include fruits and veggies? Should you include grain? Do you need to supplement and if so, with what? And although I have strong opinions on all of these questions, I don't really think there is a wrong answer...

My personal recommendations for supplementing are as follows:

1. A fish oil pill - (Omega 3/6) given once a day
2. a Multi vitamin given 2-3 times per week

That's really it. Keep in mind that 50% of my dog's raw diet is made up of fruits and veggies, so if you're going to go heavier on the meat, you might need to add a few other supplements - kelp, organic yogourt - that sort of thing.

Always free feel to PM me if you have any other questions.


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## moonbowsmommy (Dec 14, 2011)

Wow, thank you so much for all of this information. I'll look into all of it and keep checking in for more pointers!

Great Thanks,

Moonbowsmommy


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## MAPLEBABY (Jun 26, 2011)

Hi Vespasia,
Could I ask you a few questions if u dont mind? I am considering raw food as well but want to be 100% sure before I start.

When u say fish oil and multivitamin pills are those made for humans?

What type of veggies and fruits do u feed the dog? Do u get things ready in advance and freeze or do u prepare for each meal? 

Do u notice any difference in your pooch's teeth and poo since u started raw diet?

Thanks a lot in advance!!

Maplebaby


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## kidflash (Feb 5, 2011)

I feed my dog RMB. That's it. I give her a variety of meats: Turkey thighs, Chicken quarters, Beef ribs, Lamb ribs, Eggs and Fish so she gets a variety of nutrients.

The only issue is that it's a bit messy, so you need to control the space where your dog eats (on a towel, at a corner you can easily clean, etc). However it's really the best decision I've made for my dog. She takes 20-40 minutes eating and she he less poop. I've seen dogs half her size poop three times as much. I really get shocked now at the amount of poop coming out of these little dogs.

I've also noticed that when she ends up eating kibble or processed dog food (like when I would let her stay with the neighbor for the day), she comes back home more restless and... pooping more (and more frequently).

Give supplements for your own peach of mind, but I think a variety of food sources is the key. Also the chewing of the meat and bones is what gives the benefit of cleaning teeth and making your dog work for her meal (instead of swallow kibble or even the ground raw food).

Hope this helps.


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## Enola (Mar 21, 2012)

I hope you don't mind me piggybacking on this thread? I researched BARF etc. a month or so ago as, I'll be honest, the idea of my dog getting what it.needs with minimum cost to me is rather appealing! There were two things that put me off...the first being an article I read about wild wolves and the differences between them and domesticated canines. Apparently they eat a kill in a specific order, and the hair/skin of the prey wraps around the fragments of bone in their gut, thus protecting from perforation. According to this article, domesticated canines have lost this ability...but also, most raw feeders wouldn't be giving their dog, say, a whole duck or rabbit, would they?

My second issue is toddler and baby in the house and our girl currently makes off with any food given to her (treats etc.) bar kibble as she can't physically work out a way to cart it off! How would you tackle this situation if feeding raw? She IS learning that no one is going to nick her food (she lived with other dogs before and was def. bottom of.the pack!) but, as with everything, it takes time and I can't really be having raw meat juices trailled about the place with the kids!

Any answers/solutions would be very gratefully received - thank you!


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

To confuse matters even more, I looked into this a while ago 
http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,3434.msg23429.html#msg23429



Enola said:


> My second issue is toddler and baby in the house and our girl currently makes off with any food given to her (treats etc.) bar kibble as she can't physically work out a way to cart it off! How would you tackle this situation if feeding raw? She IS learning that no one is going to nick her food (she lived with other dogs before and was def. bottom of.the pack!) but, as with everything, it takes time and I can't really be having raw meat juices trailled about the place with the kids!
> 
> Any answers/solutions would be very gratefully received - thank you!


I would worry about salmonella in your case and buy kibble that is guaranteed salmonella free. There is no law that requires kibble to be free of salmonella, BTW (at least in Canada).
If you decide to go raw, you can opt to have the bones and meat ground up with a heavy duty meat grinder. There is a product called Urban Wolf http://urbanwolf.cc/ just add meat and it's considered balanced.


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