# Falmouth MA Hunt Test - Sept 8



## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Anyone from New England planning to compete in this hunt test? Saturday-Sunday, Sept 8 and 9? 

I'm wondering if it's a good idea to drive for 4 hours on my own (with or without my dog) just to see what a hunt test looks like (I'm probably going to enter for JH in late September) :-\ 

https://www.akc.org/events/search/index_results.cfm?action=plan&event_number=2012407102&cde_comp_group=HT%20%20&cde_comp_type=&NEW_END_DATE1=&key_stkhldr_event=116158784&mixed_breed=N


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## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Hi Veifera!

I know VictoriaW and Flynnandlunasmom posted that their pups are competing that weekend. Suliko mentioned that she was going to attend and I am planning to as well - most likely on Sunday - which I believe the girls (Gracie and Luna) are competing Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning - as far as I know. That would be awesome if you could make it! Maybe afterward, if anyone is up for it, we could go for a walk!


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Wow that's so awesome! I'll talk to my trainer and if we are not working that weekend I'll be there. I think it's worth it at least as "homework" for myself....


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## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Hopefully if we plan something some of the other members will be able to meet up as well! Where are you driving from?


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Hi Ottosmama! We live in Fairfield County, CT. I hope it works out!


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## VictoriaW (Mar 16, 2011)

Hi Veifera,

Gracie & Luna will actually be in two junior hunt tests each day (morning & afternoon). 

The Cape is so nice in the fall -- if you do come, definitely make a weekend of it. Guessing that it'd be easy to find pet-friendly lodging in the off-season. There are also great options if you like to camp.

FWIW, Falmouth will be our first AKC hunting event (we didn't observe one ahead of time). My husband will be handling Gracie while our trainer handles Luna. I'm hoping to watch on Sunday, as long as the kids aren't too shattered after their first week back at school.

Do you belong to the CVVC? They seem like a fun, active chapter! They have a hunt test coming up in East Windsor (Oct, I think??).

Take care,
Victoria


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Hi VictoriaW! 

I know several people from CVVC and have mailed my membership form (I'm a member of VCGNY). And yes - their October test, in the Flaherty Field Trial field is in my calendar. We've already been to that location several times, although the grass was a little too tall for a puppy but we had a blast. 

I wonder if it is possible to run the same dog twice in Juniors if a test is two days? I remember someone told me it is possible and some people managed to earn JH in two weekends...... Are you tracking the event schedule from the AKC calendar?


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## BlueandMac (Apr 21, 2011)

Hi Everyone. We will actually be vactioning on the Cape Cod starting on Saturday (without the dogs :'(). We are hoping to stop by the hunt tests on Saturday (and _maybe_ Sunday too) to get a V fix. Hopefully we will run into some of you. Do you know when/where they are posting the brace times and schedule? 

veifera - we go to Flaherty several times a year (we live in Mass just about 20 min north of Springfield)...nice place. Our two pups are older (5 years old) but maybe we could meet up for a run sometime!


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## VictoriaW (Mar 16, 2011)

Hi *BlueandMac*,

We have no idea, but would like to know! ???

I wound up booking a campsite in Falmouth for Satuday night, so the kids and I will be around for the weekend. We'll be off keeping moving and busy most of the time but I am hoping to get at least a glimpse of my girl in action. 

I will be overwhelmingly grateful for any and all photos of Gracie & Steve if you happen to see them. 

Happy vacation! Such a nice time of year on the Cape--

v.


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## BlueandMac (Apr 21, 2011)

Victoria - Thank you. I love the Cape too...especially this time of year. 

I just looked at the premium forms and it appears that they are just picking the running orders tonight for the VCCNE and the Mayflower tomorrow. I forgot that they pulled the orders so close to the event (we did a derby with Blue just before she turned two). 

The VCNNE premium http://www.mayflowergsp.com/Premium/VCCNE_2012_premium_final.pdf doesn't say when/where they will post them. Maybe they will email them to you? 

The Mayflower premium http://www.mayflowergsp.com/Premium/Dble%20Hdr%202012%20(2).pdf says the will post them to their website after 8 pm tomorrow night.

Very exciting for you all! Good luck to Gracie and Steve!


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Take the pup - put in 4 braces - get the JH - there is no ? there !


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## VictoriaW (Mar 16, 2011)

With huge thanks to BlueandMac for sending their memory card home with my husband, here is a great shot of Gracie (left) and Luna after yesterday afternoon's hunt test in Falmouth. 

Yesterday morning didn't go as well. Conditions were lousy (wet and no wind), and very few dogs qualified. BUT...Steve & Gracie were back out there in the first brace this morning and earned a perfect score! Go Gracie! Luna is on later this morning and both pups will also be running this afternoon. 

For anyone still contemplating heading down to Falmouth, rumor has it that it is very hard to see anything. Or maybe Steve is having too much fun out in the field with his dog without me and the kids...?? 

I'll let FlynnandLunasMom fill in the rest of the details since she is actually there, but I wanted to forward the pic--


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

Today was a much better day! The girls got birds in both tests. So, it was 3 out of 4 for the weekend, So close for the JH but they need one more.

I have to say, we were so proud, and I know Gracie's dad was too! 

It was a great experience. Luna & Gracie were probably the youngest dogs in the test and they did extremely well. 

It was also so great to see so many beautiful dogs in one place. 

Here are a few more pictures.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

A well done at the end of the day is the only thing a V needs - never met a sport dog that knew what a ribbon was- keep competing and your pup will be so much happier - it is about them - not us - lol


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## BlueandMac (Apr 21, 2011)

Congrats to Gracie and Luna!!!! Awesome weekend for both girls! Thanks for letting us hang out with you all yesterday - got a good V fix in...won't see my furkids until next Saturday  Great job by Gracie and Luna - nice to see them run their braces yesterday. You all must be so proud!!


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

Thanks BlueandMac, it was great to see you there! 

PS - Thanks R E McCraith. you're right about it being all about the dog, not the ribbon. Luna had a great time out there and I know she's do it every day if she could. 

I will say, she was somewhat interested in her first ribbon as you can see in this picture. Mind you, her interest was purely of the "Mom, what do you have there? I want it!" variety.


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

veifera,

Saw your question about running the pup in tests twice in one weekend and you can definitely do that!

This weekend, Luna and Gracie were in 4 braces in Falmouth. The VCCNE and the Mayflower GSP Club (our trainer is a member of this club) combined efforts and had a 2 day/4 brace test. So, the girls actually had a chance to get their JH in one weekend. They each qualified in 3 out of the 4 so they still have one to go for JH.

Best of luck to you at your test in October. We need to find a 4th test for Luna to qualify in so maybe we'll look into that one. 

One thing I will say is that as an observer, there isn't a lot to see at the event, especially if you have someone else handle your dog (which we did). It's still very exciting to be there though.


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

flynnandlunasmom: thanks! Yes, our trainer explained that sometimes the braces run over a few days and you could qualify for JH in one weekend. 

Way to go guys!! The pictures are awesome! How many dogs ran for JH? How did the braces go - did they run OK or did anyone decided to play with a bracemate?

I'm feeling incredibly bummed out. We are coping with the **** warts that don't seem to want to go away. So no HT for us until that happens and I'm starting to panic that we're looking months now, not weeks. All the more upsetting because one of our training sessions accidentally happened over light right and low wind and Ms Uma still managed to find the birds. 

Anyway, congratulations to all. I've never been to a hunt but the first time we got in a field with a trainer who showed me how everything works - it was an amazing feeling. I love being in the field...


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

There were about 20 dogs going for JH. They also had Master & Senior Test there too, and there were about maybe a total of 10 dogs combined in those.

For the most part, most of the dogs ran ok. The first brace on Sat am was tough and almost no dog qualified. Everyone seemed pretty surprised by that, even the seasoned pro's. But, the remaining braces went well. There were a few dogs who were a little out of control and some who just weren't ready to be out there. One of the dogs Gracie ran with (a GSP I think) was really hyper. He was all over the place and chasing birds everywhere and not really listening to his handler. For JH, it's ok if they chase the birds after the shot, but our trainer doesn't let them. He does let them do it at the beginning when they first start out training to get them excited but then he trains that out of them pretty early on. He said all trainers handle it differently at this stage of the game.

On one of Luna's braces, she ran with a female vizlsa not much older than her and our handler did say that at one point he thought they were interested in playing but they got them over that quickly. That is definitely something that can happen. One day during training he trained Luna & Gracie (handled by her dad) together to see how they'd do with another dog. But, because they're 'friends' who have been on a lot of hikes together etc., they wanted to play and didn't do as well when they were together. The field is pretty big though so the dogs are not always that close together. 

Sorry to hear about the warts on Uma. Don't be too upset about it if you have to wait a few months. It will be worth the wait.


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

flynnandlunasmom: wow, that's so interesting!

One thing that I still wasn't able to do is run Uma in a brace. When we train 1-on-1, I have no problems with recall but because she's so independent, bold and gutsy, I'm wondering if she will try to run on the other dog's bird! That would be so embarrassing, LOL. We were supposed to do that in our last training, but, alas.

Another thing I'm curious about is if any dogs in this weekend's test got confused by the other handler's whistle... I've been advised to switch to something more distinct sounding..


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

I wondered about the same thing but that didn't really seem to happen. Several of the handlers used electric collars too, which may have helped avoid confusion.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

to be AKC certified hunt test you can not use e-collars - has to be whistle work-also the collar can not imitate an e-collar


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

That's interesting, RE McCraith. Thanks for clarifying. 
Our handler didn't use one (just a whistle), but I thought there were other's there who did. It was hard to tell from the distance where I was watching though, so I'm probably wrong. I'm still learning.


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

veifera said:


> (I'm a member of VCGNY).


We are members as well of VCGNY and VCNNJ. . We were members of CVVC, i need to rejoin just never sent my membership renewal in last year. The CVGNY will be doing field trials again starting this upcoming spring at march 23 and 24, 2013 at The english Setter club in Medford, NJ. After a few years of suggesting we trial again, last trial held by club was in 2009. I got the board members to agree to trial again. I am the FT chairman, becareful what you ask for, lol. Nah i am happy and wanted to do it.

Joe


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Oh wow, I totally forgot about this thread!! 

My puppy has been a JUNIOR HUNTER for several weeks now (whoo hoo!!!). 

We did it in two weekends, in four straight passes. And! In two of the four passes we got a perfect score! 

For someone who's never done anything like this, it's a great experience, it's not hard and I really think every Vizsla owner should consider giving it a shot - it's just so much fun. 

Now we're devising a training plan for the next level (Evil grin)


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

Congrats veifera!

We took some time off after Falmouth because Luna was spayed but we are hoping to get the final ribbon for her JH in November.


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Thanks flynnandlunasmom and good luck! You better start figuring out how you're going to display the 5 ribbons! LOL. I was told that once the JH certificate arrives from the AKC, I should make a nice shadow box arrangement, since it was "My First Time"....

I'm getting really interested in trialling now, but considering skipping the puppy stake and spending this season training and then running in Derby and Gun Dog next spring. This sounds crazy for a 7.5 month old dog but she has so much drive, nose and beauty this plan always seems the most logical when we're in the field... 

Are you planning to do anything after JH?


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

We shall see. My husband applied for a gun license and he's working with Luna and her handler to get up to speed on what he needs to know so he can handle her himself. It's very likely we will keep going, if he likes it, which I think he will.


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

veifera said:


> I'm getting really interested in trialling now, but considering skipping the puppy stake and spending this season training and then running in Derby and Gun Dog next spring.


Veifera,

do you have one dog or more? if its only one dog, how old? The reason i ask is because if its only one dog. You may want to run puppy(if you dog is not to old) and Derby together versus running a derby dog and same dog as a gun dog. Puppy and derby are much more similar and do not require a broke dog. Typically, once a dog starts running gun dog stakes, its derby career is over. The primary reason for this is derby dog chase birds, gun dogs do not. The reason i type this is to be helpful, not tell you what you should do. The last thing i would wan to do to my dog is allow it to chase when i am breaking it or considering it broke. It would really screw the dog up. The hardest part of training a dog is doing it right so you don't have bad habits to correct along the way.



veifera said:


> Oh wow, I totally forgot about this thread!!
> 
> My puppy has been a JUNIOR HUNTER for several weeks now (whoo hoo!!!).
> Now we're devising a training plan for the next level (Evil grin)


oh my congrats on the JH. Now the training fun begins.

Joe


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Joe: I have a 7.5 months old female, my only dog. 

I thought about running her in both puppy and derby right now. There are at least 5 field trials coming up soon - back back until end of December, every weekend. So it could be great fun, running her. And she runs hard, starting to range better and better, has excellent nose and a lot of (over)drive. 

I'm obviously very biased but I have this suspicion that she's something special and I really want to handle it the best I can. And the people I showed her to all said she is right now at a point where I need to choose which way to go (tests or trials) and that she would be very competitive in trials. 

Traditional wisdom is to run her in puppy and derby for as long as she's eligible because young dogs are allowed to chase (she's a chaser like an English Pointer). But I'm concerned about this because obviously when she chases she won't recall (problem #1) and if I'm not smart about what I do next, chasing will become the reward itself (problem #2). I've seen several dogs run off the field and it wasn't pretty. 

So right now I'm thinking that I can solve this by adding the retrieving component - basically getting to the level where I can shoot over her so that there's a better reward for her than chasing- and do that before running her in any events again. She's a natural retriever and brought back every single bird she ever caught.

I guess, bottom line - I want to give her something better than chasing, but I do not want to do a lot of obedience and formal training at her age. So, it's some more test-level training this season, then running next season. At that point, it can be derby and gun dog (due to age, puppy will be done for us), etc. 

What do you think?


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

veifera said:


> I thought about running her in both puppy and derby right now. There are at least 5 field trials coming up soon - back back until end of December, every weekend. So it could be great fun, running her. And she runs hard, starting to range better and better, has excellent nose and a lot of (over)drive.
> 
> I'm obviously very biased but I have this suspicion that she's something special and I really want to handle it the best I can. And the people I showed her to all said she is right now at a point where I need to choose which way to go (tests or trials) and that she would be very competitive in trials.
> 
> ...



Great I am glad you seem to know a lot. You said some excellent things and I agree with most. in fact my girl Vala is basically at a similar point in do we continue to derby or move on. she is still young enough to run some derby next spring season. I will handle your questions in order and of course its my opinion. That being said I will open with this. If you decide to trial now. it is easy to hunt test down the road. It is much easier to get a dog to come in then to make a boot licker go out. Especially a Red dog. 

Is your girl catching birds often?

At 7.5 months old your dog is very young and i wouldn't put a lot of pressure on her just yet. Its great that she is running bigger and bigger and sound like you have a field champion in the making. What i would do is allow her to enjoy running. Puppy stakes are great cause a club doesn't have to put out birds to have that stake, so less opportunity for your girl to come on birds and have the opportunity to catch them. Its not so much the chasing part, its the Catching part that makes them continue chasing. Put another way if you always chase something and never get it. One day you will stop. But if you are successful and you can catch a crappy flying quail. you will be more likely to chase to catch. Honestly the best derby dogs very often are not successful Gun Dogs for the very reason the owners enjoy winning so much that they don't get their points in derby and get the **** out. they keep playing the game to the detriment of the dogs future career and the dog learns uncorrectable bad habits. At worst it ruins the dog as a gun dog. or you have those completely out of control gun dog or all age dog that rarely gets around the course clean. I like a good gun dog. Its pretty to watch, it handles for its handler and its honest on its points and birds, you can keep that out of control chaos running machine. As far as running derby. i would go for it this season, but be selective. If its raining or very wet, I would scratch as the birds wont be getting up and dogs can catch them easier.

Now about you doing retrieving with her. Any aspect of training gives pressure on a dog and encourages or discourages a specific behavior. The goal of training is to build a solid foundation that doesn't create future setback for your more advanced training down the road, but builds on them. sometimes easier said then done. So if your young dog has moved on from chasing to retrieving and she can handle that pressure and the pressure that comes with training stop to flush, honoring. Remember a dog that does any of these with style is important, why? judges notice this and they like it. it gets there attention and they watch your dog. its like watching a pretty person go by, everyone looks, you just cant help it. That being said once you leave the chase part and demand the steadiness your should not run puppy or derby as it simply conflicts in the dogs mind and you will have issues down the road without a doubt. Now the risk you take on a young V is harder. Trial dogs typically are brought along slower than hunting dogs this is how the run is built, derby teaches them to run and they get a little chaotic(trick is to quite doing derby at the right time) there is a problem when you steady a dog. Often you lose some run as the dog becomes more cautious in making mistakes and displeasing you. 

So after typing all that. I would say this. If your girl is not catching birds and you are a trialer at heart more so than a hunt tester, or a hunter. Run puppy/derby let her build her competitive and bird desire. Just hope you get braced with a dog equal to or better than yours. that is where she will learn.
If she is catching birds. train with better flying birds such as pigeons or chuckar, vs quail. Its much easier for a dog to catch quail. or move on to steady work if you think she will take it.


Hope this helps,
Joe


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Joe: very interesting what you're saying. And, frankly, I'm really torn right now because I'm literally _*itching*_ to run her in trials. 

I think my dog has two qualities about her that make me pause, though. First - her prey drive is exceptionally strong. If the birds are strong fliers, she won't chase them from here to California - she's too smart for that. Instead, she'll start getting closer and closer to them and bumping them. 

Second - she loves to retrieve. During the hunting test, she chased a bird I flushed to the bushes, caught it, brought it back and put it down right in front of the judge. Without any commands or encouragement from me. Both the judge and I were kind of speechless. 

She's a dog possessed in the field. It's amazing to watch. But it almost feels like something important is missing for her in the current sequence (find, point then do nothing - no conclusion) and she's trying to compensate or figure it out. It was the same when I first took her to walk in a field at 10 weeks and she wanted to do something but couldn't understand what it was. She was restless and kept trying to come up with things on her own.

The pro's of running her at least in puppy, as you say, is the competitive spirit - especially against a stronger brace mate. The con's are she'll start to self-hunt and develop bad habits that will take much more pressure to stop. And these con's are the reasons I'm hesitating. Like you said - if we get into trials, I don't want to scoop the derby and retire - but run her until she's 10 years old. 

So let me rephrase my question to you. If I only get to where I can shoot over her (i.e. no formal work) and she sees a downed bird that she's actually encouraged to "catch", I think everything will click into place for her. Apart from the competitive/brace element, what could you criticize about this plan or say is wrong for the dog?


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

yes for a trialer derby is 24 months Gun dog many more years than that.

will your dog hold her point and not break on the shot and the fall? so she will wait to be sent on the retreive?


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

> will your dog hold her point and not break on the shot and the fall? so she will wait to be sent on the retreive?


She'll hold the point if I plant the bird close enough to where I cast her off. She holds it about 10 seconds now (but I noticed it got shorter on the weekend on chuckar). 

The issue of chasing/waiting under gun - my thinking is I'll let her chase as I start introducing the gun and get her on the check cord (with the trainer) as we bring the gun close enough to have the bird in the range. 

Basically, I need an interim period to get her to see several birds fall and be sent to "catch" them. Once that happens, she'll understand the full sequence and realize that bumping and chasing gets the bird to go away - but working with me gets her the bird.....

I'm trying to find everything that's wrong or could go wrong with this plan so I either give it up or go for it....


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

Keep in mind your plan works in your mind, but maybe not in a dogs mind. Typically what is done is to get the dog on birds in traps and if she doesn't point the bird or cant wait. you pop the trap. do this enough and the dog figures it out not to pressure the bird so it wont leave. So this gets a non- pointing dog to point. or a charging dog to piont and wait and hold on the cap gun. If you dont have that you will only create a breaking dog issue when you shoot over it. that will be even more difficult and more pressure to get to hold. again chasing is fine as long as there is no catching. you said yourself she wont chase that far. I want a steady dog to the cap pistol before I shoot over them with a gun. I will let a an unbroke dog have a few shots over it, but only with expericence gunners, its to dangerous. That is only to build prey drive before the pressure of becoming steady is turned on. sorta like a last horrah of puppyhood. Then its all business during the breaking process to many things can and will go wrong. last thing i need is a dead dog. Vala my derby dog would hold for the trap once it pops she would leap in the air for the bird. before i could shoot over her she had to be steady or someone was going to shoot her.

Joe


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Joe - thanks. Regarding chasing - I said she won't chase from tri-state to California, not to PA or MD ;-)

I'm not worried about the gun. Our trainer is a former Vizsla trialler who raised two duals and trained several more, so I trust him with that. We did some work on traps and it was exactly as you say, and worked like a charm. 

Will be on the phone with him again tonight - you bring up several issues I haven't thought about in such detail before. Thanks again - this is really useful.


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

veifera said:


> Joe - thanks. Regarding chasing - I said she won't chase from tri-state to California, not to PA or MD ;-)
> 
> We did some work on traps and it was exactly as you say, and worked like a charm.
> 
> Will be on the phone with him again tonight - you bring up several issues I haven't thought about in such detail before. Thanks again - this is really useful.


Glad I could help. 

Traps really do help steady them up. Especially if u have access to pigeons. Just pop enough over them as the dog will figure it out on their own not to pressure the birds. 

Joe


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