# should I neuter my puppy?



## bug2916 (Mar 5, 2012)

My puppy is 6mths old and my husband does not want to get him fixed. Is this a good idea or should we get him fixed? I think it would calm him down a bit not sure though.


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## city_dog (Feb 16, 2012)

Did you buy him from a breeder? If so, your contract might state that you _have_ to neuter him.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I have one of each and therefore can comment on both sides. My eldest male Ozkar is entire, Astro is fixed as is Zsa Zsa my pointer. If I have a choice, I leave them entire. As someone else posted in here recently, "It's what is between their ears, not their legs, which is important!"


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Why? Health issues? Behavior issues? Want a small-boned male Vizsla with little muscle structure?

You can study the subject below. We have a neutered female and an intact male. 

Males that can stay intact until 18 months old will grow correctly. Early neuter will stunt his growth.

Important subject to study first. Good luck to your dog.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/04/unspoken-truth-about-spaying-and.html

RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I don't make that decision until mine are adults. 
At that time if I don't feel they would better the breed then its off to the vets. Its a personal choice not something that has to be done.
I wouldn't count on it calming him down.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Just to add to what RBD has said, having them neutered really young, not only inhibits development of there bones and structure, it can also make them large dogs. Too large for their developed skeletal and muscle structure. Astro is a good looking dog, but lacks the definition that Ozkar's body has. Ozkar is muscled, toned almost ripped like a body builder gets. Muscle, sinew and veins. No fat. Astro is a soft, sleek dog, without the muscle toning of Ozkar. They eat the same and if anything, Astro gets way more exercise than Ozkar does. Yes, some differences are from the pedigree differences, but if you could see the two next to each other you would see what I mean. Astro is pretty, Ozkar is handsome. 

Both are as energetic as each other, but Astro doesn't have the stamina that Ozkar has either. Both have been easy to train. Both have moments of madness or the zoomies. Both love a cuddle, both love to hunt. I don;t apart from health reasons see a need to do Ozkar. I have no intention of breeding him, but, he can keep his goolies for as long as he is a good, healthy boy.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

It won't calm him down. That hyperness will be there until he's about 2 and then he'll "mellow out".

I've had three males through the years, and all were intact their whole lives. I never had any problems with them.
The two girlz I have now are spayed, and truth be told, I regret the decision. I won't do it again.

My vote is to leave 'em as the come.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

i think that people just nueter their dogs for THEIR benifit not the pups.....easier to control, less drive and energy. It's a shame in my eyes.
If you have too, sure if you have a choice...come on now. We got high energy dogs deal with them and all their "goodies" folks.


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

No matter what wait 12 more months to do this. You want your boy to have strong bones and muscles I would assume. Your are asking this question way too early.


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## 1notenough (Sep 6, 2008)

i say that the dog was born that way its best to leave them that way.There are no benefits to doing this.You will have a better dog if you leave him alone,thus he will grow to his full potential.i have two that will be four years this month and have never experienced anything that makes me regret leaving them as they are.Its there for a reason ...how would you feel?


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## Kobi (Oct 26, 2010)

I would say wait til 18 months.

My pup just reached that point, and I decided not to neuter him. However, I absolutely *WILL NOT* be breeding him. I just don't see the reason to neuter.


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

I have seen so many Vizsla mixes in shelters lately that I am starting to wonder if people are not watching their intact males very carefully. IF you decide not to neuter (a completely personal choice), please watch him and don't let him mate with another dog unless it is a planned breeding.


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## kristen (Oct 18, 2011)

It's a lot easier to have an intact dog in the country than it is in the city. All our off-leash parks have pretty strict rules with no intact males allowed. As do most doggy daycares and play centers.


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## ironman_stittsville (Oct 12, 2011)

I had my Phoebe spayed just after 6 months. My vet recommended it. He stated that if you spay your female before her first heat then the chances of breast cancer is zero. I can't speak to that but I trust his recommendation. She is certainly happy and healthy with plenty of energy and she is the same size and has similar muscle tone as her V peers.

Rh.


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## bug2916 (Mar 5, 2012)

thank you all for your comments.. Our vet said we should have done it at 4 mths. I personnally think that is way too early after reading some of the posts. We will wait! he was born with them then he will keep them. again thanks to all!


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## finch (Sep 19, 2011)

threefsh said:


> I have seen so many Vizsla mixes in shelters lately that I am starting to wonder if people are not watching their intact males very carefully. IF you decide not to neuter (a completely personal choice), please watch him and don't let him mate with another dog unless it is a planned breeding.



While I also completely agree it is a personal choice, thank you for making this point threefsh. My Finch is a Vizsla/Pit mix from the south and I started out fostering her for a local rescue. In addition to falling in love with her, once I realized that she was a V mix (she was listed in Petfinder as a Pit Mix) and I learned more about V's, I couldn't imagine her being adopted by someone who didn't understand the breed. People that look for Pits are often very different than those who look for Vs (I know I am generalizing). I consider myself lucky every day that she is the dog that the rescue placed with me for fostering, and knowing what I know now, I think she is pretty lucky too.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

bug2916 said:


> thank you all for your comments.. Our vet said we should have done it at 4 mths. I personnally think that is way too early after reading some of the posts. We will wait! he was born with them then he will keep them. again thanks to all!


Glad to see your waiting. Different vets have different opinions. My vet won't spay or neuter them that young. She's an old time no nonsense vet that used to breed and trial Weimaraners. She now raises blood hounds. Incontinence is a big problem when done to young. Then you have the problems later due to them still growing. If its a lay around lap dog she will do it at 6 months. If its a dog that going to have a lot of wear and tear on its muscles and joints she recommends you wait.


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## moonbowsmommy (Dec 14, 2011)

Im in the same boat with my puppy. Please list the highest pros and the highest cons about neutering at 4 months. My vet recommends we do it next month. Moonbow is 14 weeks purebred male vizsla. Im unsure myself of what to do. This seems like a highly controversial topic. I've done a lot of research but still feel torn by all the contradicting opinions out there. How does one make the right choice?!


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

bug2916 said:


> thank you all for your comments.. Our vet said we should have done it at 4 mths. I personnally think that is way too early after reading some of the posts. We will wait! he was born with them then he will keep them. again thanks to all!


Poor vet, needs to find someone else to pay for his cottage. 
We were refused entry at our previous Vet if did not neuter by 6 months. Found another Vet who understands and respect our decision, but is not too happy either ;D

moonbowsmommy, I find my dog more stable than neutered males. We make sure no one is making a big thing or even notices the hanging bits and all is well. Guests, like to touch and play with him but we make sure no one touches his privates  That way he grows stable and happy.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> How does one make the right choice?!


What's the hurry? Will your dog have unsupervised access to females in heat any time soon?

Will puppies be made by your male if he is not neutured before he is 18 months old?

Neuturing early is great for those who let their dogs roam freely through the town. If that isn't your situation then let the boy dog grow up to be a real dog and not a whimpy example of the dog he could be.

To me it is sad to see the under-developed male Vizsla. Sad isn't the right word. More like puzzled.

RBD


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## Linescreamer (Sep 28, 2010)

bug2916 said:


> thank you all for your comments.. Our vet said we should have done it at 4 mths. I personnally think that is way too early after reading some of the posts. We will wait! he was born with them then he will keep them. again thanks to all!


I never take advise from someone who will profit from the advise provided. Period.....end of story.


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## jjohnson (Nov 9, 2011)

"I never take advise from someone who will profit from the advise provided. Period.....end of story."

So do you not get medical procedures that your doctors reccomend for you or your human family? Human doctors stand to profit off medical procedures also. Just curious as to why everyone is implying that vets are con-artists. I personally don't argue with veterinarians since I am not a medical doctor and I have to trust them to be well-meaning.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

This is something all vets don't agree on. So someone would have to do their homework. Why do they want the puppies fixed at 4 months old? Are they doing it because its in the best intrest of the puppy or is it because they don't think your responsible enough to own an intact dog?


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## Linescreamer (Sep 28, 2010)

jjohnson said:


> "I never take advise from someone who will profit from the advise provided. Period.....end of story."
> 
> So do you not get medical procedures that your doctors recommend for you or your human family? Human doctors stand to profit off medical procedures also. Just curious as to why everyone is implying that vets are con-artists. I personally don't argue with veterinarians since I am not a medical doctor and I have to trust them to be well-meaning.


Yes, I/we do. I also pay them for their services weather they provide advise or not. I would never follow their recommendations without doing my own research. Modern medical practices are manipulated or let's say influenced, by corporations for profit, not your or you dog's health. Most of my advisers do not provide advise unsolicited. If so, I get very suspicious. If there is an incentive for the advise provided, it is usually influenced by that incentive and not in your best interest.


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## moonbowsmommy (Dec 14, 2011)

What about their temperament? Are intact males harder to handle? The need for them to procreate during adolescence? Health factors/benefits? Of you decide to nuter, when do you think is the appropriate time? I've also read that waiting longer makes the procedure more painful and traumatic for them.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> So do you not get medical procedures that your doctors reccomend for you or your human family? Human doctors stand to profit off medical procedures also.


I question everything my doctor and my dentist tell me. Both my doctor and dentist and I have a great relationship. I question all things and ask what I could do better so I don't need this or that procedure.

Neuturing and spaying is easy money. They have office staff and bills to pay. Many of them went to vet school and bought into the animal rights propaganda.

Question everything. Learn from others. Get second opinions.

Do what is best for you and your dog as responsible dog owners.

RBD


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

My understanding is that there is no consensus right now about the effects of spay/neuter on dogs and the appropriate age. Some research suggests spaying reduces chances of certain cancers, other research suggests it increases chances of other cancers and thyroid problems. 

Personally, I find it very hard to believe that performing surgery to remove a normal, healthy biological function results in only magical benefits and no cost to the dog. 

The whole spay/neuter debate is really a political debate, the participants in this debate all have their own viewpoints and agendas and lobbying/PR budgets. There are some really extreme camps in this debate, pushing for things like mandatory spay/neuter laws enforced by the government, even though they claim to be for animal "rights". 

Many vets have been now taught the culture of "responsible pet ownership", which promotes spay/neuter and they're perfectly well-meaning in that recommendation. Even the American Kennel Club advocates spay/neuter if the owner has no intention of responsibly breeding the dog. 

A Vizsla breeder I spoke to believes it's an entirely personal decision of the owner, but as a breeder of many years she believes passionately a dog that hasn't reached puberty (and a female who hasn't been in season) shouldn't be neutered or spayed. 

Unless the owner has no confidence s/he can prevent accidental breeding (and yet still own the dog??), I see no reason not to agree with this breeder.


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

polkan said:


> A Vizsla breeder I spoke to believes it's an entirely personal decision of the owner, but as a breeder of many years she believes passionately a dog that hasn't reached puberty (and a female who hasn't been in season) shouldn't be neutered or spayed.


Our breeder has the same approach. She supports each owner's decision, but she highly recommended AT LEAST waiting until Riley's first heat before we get her spayed. Luckily, her girls tend to have their first heat at around 12 months, so Riley should be pretty much fully developed by that point.


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## jjohnson (Nov 9, 2011)

Spay/neuter is pushed really hard by local governments because there are way too many people that AREN'T responsible enough with their animals. On the aggregate, it outweighs the negative effects. Have you checked out an animal shelter recently and seen all of the poor animals that need homes beacause some idiot can't take care of his dog? Breaks my heart. This is why I support spay/neuter, because I think in the big picture it is positive for the animals. That being said, it is obviously not necessary for responsible owners, like probably everybody who spends time on a message board posting about their dogs all day But I have seen too many litters of unwanted puppies ending up in shelters or on Craigslist only to be sold for $50 to some idiot who keeps his dog outside on a chain all day. Personally, we nuetered our puppy because he was showing very early signs of aggression torwards us, and I asked the vet if he thought neutering may reduce these tendencies. He said it was possible, but not guaranteed, but we decided to go ahead with hopes that it may help reduce the potential for worsening aggression.


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## Looney (Sep 28, 2011)

If you need to nueter your pet to control him better you shouldn't have a pet.....
What if you child was ADD or something would you medicate them into a stooper just to calm them down? 

4 months..you will have a funny looking puppy if you do this i believe.


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## jjohnson (Nov 9, 2011)

Some shelters now spay and nueter as young as 8 weeks. The point is not how good the dogs look. The point is the overpopulation of dogs and cats due to irresponsible people. On the whole, spay/neuter is a positive because it is a step to reducing the pet population and bettering the lives of many dogs and cats. If you are a responsible pet owner, do whatever you wish. 

Our vet, I will point out, won't nueter before 6 months of age.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> The point is the overpopulation of dogs and cats due to irresponsible people


http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/01/rethinking-spay-neuter-in-2011.html

Excerpt:

_"Feral cats and kittens account for the majority of shelter numbers, but many areas have actual shortages of adoptable dogs, particularly purebreds and puppies, and must import from other regions to fill the need. Dogs are being smuggled into the US by the thousands with rescue groups importing small dogs from Mexico, Brazil, the Caribbean, Taiwan and Romania, to name some of the most popular points of origin. The conservative estimate is that 300,000 dogs are imported into the US each year to meet the demand for pets"

"According to shelter expert Nathan Winograd, every year in this country, approximately 3 million adoptable pets die in shelters.* At the same time, around 17 million US households are looking for a new pet. That is 17 million households above and beyond those who already will adopt a shelter or rescue pet. *There are nearly six times as many homes opening up every year as the number of adoptable pets killed in shelters! * It seems the greatest challenge these days is to find ways to match up the adoptable pets with the homes that are waiting for them. Breed rescues fill this niche admirably, but are privately funded and desperately in need of assistance in order to be able to effectively perform this service. Perhaps some of the public funds budgeted for shelters to kill animals could be better spent helping rescue groups who are proactive in matching adoptable pets to suitable homes"_

I wish there were fewer irresponsible owners, but for the Vizsla breed, at least, it is a very small percentage. Hope it stays that way.


RBD


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

> Have you checked out an animal shelter recently and seen all of the poor animals that need homes beacause some idiot can't take care of his dog? Breaks my heart.


I understand, completely. 

It's also true that our society today is defining animal welfare very differently than previous generations did and the nature of our relationship with dogs (and pets, generally) has changed profoundly, from utilitarian to human-like relationships. 

My grandfather was a hunter and owned Setters his entire adult life, raising several generations of them. I know he loved his dogs because I saw him with them. But the culture of the time was to keep dogs in kennels, not in the house. Would he be considered a responsible dog owner today? I'm not so sure, despite the amazing bond and relationship he had with them. 

The road to **** is always paved with good intentions and any position, however well-meaning can be taken to an extreme, militant ultimatum backed by the State and the force of law, which doesn't (and cannot) differentiate responsible and irresponsible pet owners, and treats all in the same way, as inherently bad people with bad intentions.

Also, I don't want to completely derail this thread, but there aren't too many people out there who are against laws that make deliberate cruelty to animals a crime. But I don't agree with defining animal welfare as a concept (especially a legal concept with the force of law) through the lens of human morality and human needs, because I think laws like these are ultimately designed to make people feel better about themselves, under the guise of improving the life of animals. We don't even fully understand what "improving" means, as the definition keeps changing. 

I haven't made up my mind about spaying my dog, but I know that if I do it won't be until she's 12 months old. 

What makes me really mad is that I may have to make my dog go under the knife because some people somewhere are irresponsible, and she'll have to pay a personal price in the name of some greater good.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

polkan said:


> What makes me really mad is that I may have to make my dog go under the knife because some people somewhere are irresponsible, and she'll have to pay a personal price in the name of some greater good.


Nobody cares if females are spayed or not. It's the males that everyone is after... Aggression is a serious issue and somehow intact males got the stigma of being trouble makers. I disagree with that notion as I have seen aggressive males both neutered and intact, as well as friendly well balanced males both neutered and intact. 

We decided that we could not accommodate a female in heat, and had her spayed around 9 months. It was the right choice for us, and nobody could sway our decision. 
Had she been a _he_, we would have felt pressured to 'fix' him as city life includes off-leash parks and I like getting along with other owners instead of defending my dog. I plan on owning a male one day, and will keep him intact as long as it is feasible.


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## Crazy Kian (Aug 10, 2009)

We had Kian neutered at 11 months. 
Did it curve aggression... nope, he's still a jerk with some dogs, bigger or smaller. We keep an eye on him when off leash.
Did it cure humping.... not really. If he wants to hump another dog he will, again, we keep an eye on that too.
Is he fully developed.... nope. He does get mistaken for a female once in a while. His head is a little smaller than most and he is quite svelt :

Just the other day I bumped in to an another V and his owner. Turns out the V is Kian's half brother?.. same father, different mother. Kian and Mac (the other V) are about 18 months apart. Mac looked more "male", bigger head and more filled out than Kian. 
Apparently he had just ben neutered about a month before so around 14 months of age.

Him and Kian got along great, they body slammed each other pretty hard and ran around together for a few minutes.... it was fun to see them together.

If I were to get another male I would wait longer to neuter him.... if at all.


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

> We decided that we could not accommodate a female in heat, and had her spayed around 9 months. It was the right choice for us, and nobody could sway our decision.


That's the key, it was your decision. It's not easy to manage heat cycles, especially when living in the city and where lots of places won't even talk to you if she isn't spayed. But in the end, it is a personal decision, not a mandatory law.

Here is a very politically incorrect view on spay/neuter from a few years ago (the author doesn't take a position one way or the other, but explains the consequences that nobody ever talks about). 

If my dog is a female, should I be worried (or even know) about this?:



> Spayed females have a greater incidence of urinary incontinence (actually called "spay incontinence," often by the same vets who assure you there are no adverse effects to spaying and neutering) than intact females.


http://www.doggedblog.com/doggedblog/2006/05/its_just_that_t.html


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

Hi All,

I really appreciate this thread. We had never even considered _*not*_ neutering a dog when he was young until we got Oso and I started to do some research. 

We will wait until Oso is 18 months and then decide. It does create trouble when it comes to Daycare, but it sounds like it's the right choice for him.

As for vets... We have had a lot of incorrect diagnoses in our house. So I'm going to add my long winded experience. 

1) One vet told me our cat was going to die in a few months from FIP. We mourned and then researched. By looking online extensively, I was able to see that the blood titers were analyzed incorrectly and our cat was misdiagnosed (4 years later and no problem - I read lots of cats are misdiagnosed and put to sleep for this). 

2) Another vet refused to acknowledge that another animal was sensitive to medicine. I was able to diagnose and effectively treat his rodent ulcers/eosinophilic ulcers by doing homeopathic stuff I found online. Had this not worked, I would have found another vet. But, we saved a lot of money this way. 

3) A kitten we rescued was born with an enlarged eye with a horrible corneal ulcer. It was nothing we could diagnose, but because we were going through a rescue program, they sent us to three different vets. The first two didn't even check his eye and just recommended surgery. The last stained the eye, checked the pressure, shined a light in and accurately diagnosed it. His eye got completely better within a few weeks with application of ointment.

Veterinarians go through lots of schooling, are very well educated and should be given a lot of respect. That being said, they are required to know so much varied information. It seems most likely that they know a little about everything instead of a lot about everything - that is why you need specialists. 

I am sure there are exceptional veterinarians who subscribe to multiple veterinary peer-reviewed journals and spend a lot of their time studying and researching. My guess is that most veterinarians "go by the book" and diagnose what they think is most common. (People they misdiagnose probably never come back or know about it, so they keep thinking they are right). 

Some are cocky, the ones we go to now are smart enough to refer us to someone else if they aren't experts in the field. It's still a trial basis if an animal gets sick on a weekend. But, just like in every other job people differ in their ability to do their job well. 

By researching online you can get totally confused and make bad decisions for your animal (you should do so with caution) BUT you can actually become a specialist on your animal's breed, specific disorder, etc. More so than your vet may have the time to do. 

In terms of spay/neutering your vet can not know how careful you are and must have seen a ridiculous number of unplanned litters in their time. It is safer for the pet population on a whole to recommend spade/neutering TO EVERYONE instead of risk puppies/kittens being born without a home who have to be put to sleep or endure neglect/mistreatment.


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## Melda (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi all, clearly this is a controversial subject with no clearcut answers. 

Here's my opinion about this subject following own experience and personal research, being the proud owner of 2 female Vs.

I had Tamra spayed when she was 9 months old (before she had her first season) about 6 years ago, following the advice of my previous vet and backed by my own research purely regarding health issues. She remains to this day perfectly healthy, bubbly and energetic, she did not gain weight, became lazy or changed personality. That said however, she has remained on the smaller size and people often mistake her for a puppy. She's tall, but slender, the Kate Moss of the doggie world :-* She also doesn't seem to age like other dogs, had I known, I would've got myself spayed long time ago ;D

I've looked after my friend's Dalmatian while they were on holiday, unfortunately she came into season on my watch, which made our lives a bit difficult, mainly due to the hostility we encountered by owners of intact dogs most of whom used to refuse to even put their dogs on a lead for 2-3 minutes while we pass. I had her on lead at all times during our walks, and even started taking her out first thing in the morning and last thing in the evening to avoid all the tuts and comments. 

I know owners of intact dogs who have no intension to breed them, but similarly do not take the responsibility of keeping a close eye on them. I fully agree with and understand the argument to wait until the dog/bitch develops fully, be it 12-18 months, I understand if people want to breed from their dogs, or indeed, live in a place where their dog/bitch does not have the opportunity to breed with others. But I do not understand the argument to keep them intact for none of the above reasons or any health ones, and not even take responsibility of their dog's actions.

I now have another female pup and will wait until she has her first season, purely because I'm curious to see what difference it makes to her growth, as I don't think it makes any difference to her general health. And I will make sure to take her out during unsociable hours and keep her on lead, and all the stuff one has to do to try and minimize unwanted attention.

I do urge intact dog owners to also take some responsibility in making sure their dogs are under control and within sight to cut down on unplanned litters, which is also evident in many shelters around London.

We all make the best decisions for our pets based on the available literature, research, and advice, we must therefore, take the responsibility for these decision, guard our pets and ensure the safety and well being of future pups.


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## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

Savannah is female, so I have no opinion on age of neutering. 

I do wonder about the number comments posted on this thread about responsible ownership and the number of comments posted elsewhere on this forum about not having 100% recall. 

If he is out and about, isn't he available for mischance?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I posted on the subject and my dogs have 100 percent recall thanks to ecollar conditioning. I can also put my male on whoa and a female in heat can walk by and he won't move.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

TexasRed said:


> I posted on the subject and my dogs have 100 percent recall thanks to ecollar conditioning. I can also put my male on whoa and a female in heat can walk by and he won't move.


And the best part about e collar conditioning is I don't have to stim every time. Maybe once out of every 5 commands. Amazing tool.


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## Linescreamer (Sep 28, 2010)

moonbowsmommy said:


> Im in the same boat with my puppy. Please list the highest pros and the highest cons about neutering at 4 months. My vet recommends we do it next month. Moonbow is 14 weeks purebred male vizsla. Im unsure myself of what to do. This seems like a highly controversial topic. I've done a lot of research but still feel torn by all the contradicting opinions out there. How does one make the right choice?!


It sounds like he needs a new car. There are really not many contradicting opinions when you rule out the ones with financial interests.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

redbirddog said:


> > How does one make the right choice?!
> 
> 
> What's the hurry? Will your dog have unsupervised access to females in heat any time soon?
> ...


Spot on!!

Astro now 12 months old, done as a puppy. Larger dog than Ozkar. Taller, longer, jut bigger. But, soft bodied. Lacks muscle definition. Always gets picked as the girl out of him and the other two. 

Ozkar no 16 months old, still entire. Smaller dog than Astro (result of lineage, not health or spaying), but is built like a sherman tank. He has bulging muscles from hips and shoulders and is a swift and powerful Vizsla. Even his movement is more defined. 

If I could turn the clock back, I would have picked Astro up before the previous family destroyed him as they did. Don't get me wrong, he is a beautiful dog. A soft natured kind and gentle boy. Energetic in bursts and I adore him as much if not more than Ozkar. But, the point is, I believe had he been left entire, he would be a smaller dog in length and height, but would be like Ozkar in muscle definition and toning. 

As for the health benefits, I really doubt a Vet who prescribes to this line of thinking. I have a Vet who is old school too. Put onto him by my best mate's wife who is a rep for Fort Dodge who do animal vaccinations and some other supplies. She reckons he is still selling her Vaccinations for less than he is buying them for. She even told him about it and he just shrugged his shoulders and said it keeps them coming back.  He is the sort of Vet that tells you that he could prescribe this type of ear drop which is really expensive, but, if you go up to the pharmacy, they sell a human one which is exactly the same for 1/3 of the price. Go pick that up on your way home.  To me, that says more about him than anything else. He's not in it for the money. His son has pretty much taken over now and thankfully, is exactly like his dad. They even hired another vet to work with them and he is exactly the same too   Great vet.


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