# Puppy Protest, Growling



## fullmanfamily (Oct 17, 2014)

Our female Vizsla is now close to ten months old. Lately she has been protesting a bit when we pick her up ( usually when her recall isn't good and we need to go inside to get to work or put her in the car). It doesn't happen all the time, but in the past three weeks I've seen it a) when I went outside in the yard to get her inside and she didn't want to come in b) when I wanted to leave my mom's house and had to pick her up to put her in the back of my car ( she didn't want to jump in herself). 

The reaction happens just as I grab her collar and go to pick her up. She does a little growl and sometimes shows her teeth, but has never snipped or doing anything more than that. Once she is picked up, the fuss is over. 

I have to admit the first few times she showed this " I'm the boss behavior" it took me off guard. I backed off, which gave her the signal I think that she could get away with this sort of protest. Lately, when she protest growls I am not hesitating to pick her up and I'm scolding her when I hear the growl.

She has not been spayed and this behavior typically happens when it's raining and she hasn't been able to run around as much or if she's over tired and cranky. Needless to say, it's a behavior we want to squash. 

Is this a typical Vizsla behavior at this rebellious teenage age? What's the best way to discipline a Vizsla without crossing that sensitivity line?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

So much depends on the dogs overall temperament, on how I would handle it.
One of my females gets a little grumpy around her heat cycle. She is fine with me, but tries not to move off the couch, or bed when told to. I just slid her off, but she will grumble (barley audible growl) if someone else does it. I don't just grab her collar. I talk to her, give her a rub with my hand, and then slide my hand down her back easing her off. 
Yes, these dogs can also get moody if you miss running them. I believe the boredom, leads to frustration. Try to get her out more to exercise, and go back to obedience training. Working on the recall, and loading up in the car when she's not grumpy, leads to them doing it more reliably when they are.
We all know its a dictator relationship with our dogs, but we need to remember to be a fair dictator.


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## fullmanfamily (Oct 17, 2014)

Thank you, this is really reassuring. She was definitely grumpy when she protested on Sunday. It was rainy and we hadn't exercised her in the morning like she was use to. I also probably gave her too much flexibility trying to get into the car on her own, I think the anxiety for both of us probably escalated. I'll try and put her in a happier place when I need to get her to do things she doesn't want to do. I didn't have treats or anything the other day, so that was probably part of the issue too. Stubborn little things aren't they!! She's getting spayed in two weeks, so it will be interesting to see how these mood swings change.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

The rain has been nasty, and there are days you cant go for a run during a thunderstorm. I have a Gander Mountain close to the house, and take a dog shopping with me to get them out. They work on greeting people correctly, walking at heel, and staying accustom to different sights and sounds. June will normally pick her something out before we leave the store. The clerks are used to seeing her carrying it around, and she gives it up easily at the checkout.
If you can't get in physical exercise in a day, try some mental exercise to carry them over.


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## fullmanfamily (Oct 17, 2014)

This is a great reminder, we need to revisit the socializing/ mental exercise work now that she's getting older. I believe Home Depot and maybe Lowe's allow dogs, so that could be a good adventure for rainy days. I also want to try and get her to some Farmer's Markets on the weekends as well.


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## chilithevizsla (Apr 2, 2014)

Just to add to TexasRed, do not discipline a growl, this makes them aversive to do it and when not happy can skip straight to a bite in the future. I know it's a natural reflex to discipline the behavior because we see it as aggression but it's not.
Growling isn't bad, it lets you know she's unhappy with the situation but obviously you want to avoid this kind of situation because they can end badly.

I'd certainly start working on recall and getting her getting in the car, you don't even necessarily have to go anywhere! Just get her to jump in, treat and then get her to wait and back out again. It'll really desensitize her to it and she'll realise just because she's getting in the car she's not always leaving


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

chilithevizsla said:


> Just to add to TexasRed, *do not discipline a growl, this makes them aversive to do it and when not happy can skip straight to a bite in the future. I know it's a natural reflex to discipline the behavior because we see it as aggression but it's not.
> Growling isn't bad, it lets you know she's unhappy with the situation but obviously you want to avoid this kind of situation because they can end badly*.
> 
> I'd certainly start working on recall and getting her getting in the car, you don't even necessarily have to go anywhere! Just get her to jump in, treat and then get her to wait and back out again. It'll really desensitize her to it and she'll realise just because she's getting in the car she's not always leaving


I just wanted to reiterate what Chilithevizsla wrote as it is worth READING over and fully understanding:

_*do not discipline a growl, this makes them aversive to do it and when not happy can skip straight to a bite in the future. I know it's a natural reflex to discipline the behavior because we see it as aggression but it's not.
Growling isn't bad, it lets you know she's unhappy with the situation but obviously you want to avoid this kind of situation because they can end badly*_

The last thing you want to do is remove the warning system from your dog....

Nate


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

You had asked, how to discipline… There are certainly instances where a dog needs disciplined, but I try to approach a situation from a different angle….and analyze the situation differently and ask myself these questions when the dog fails to listen to me:

1. Have I taught the dog the behavior I am asking of it at this level of distraction?
2.	Why is the dog choosing not to listen to me (that answer is rarely “because he is being a jerk and chooses to ignore me” – it is often because the option he chooses is more enjoyable/rewarding).
3.	Since the answer to #2 – is usually that the option he chose is more rewarding for him – I ask myself how do I make the option I want him to do even more favorable than the one he chose?

My task as the trainer/handler is to show the dog choosing the option I want him to do is the better option whether that be by treating/praising etc. 

For example…countersurfing…. I don’t yell/discipline my dog for counter surfing. If my dog surfs, I know I need to show him a better option. I teach him “up” so he put his front legs on me, and then teach him “off” (4 legs on the ground). It’s tough to teach “off” if you only yell it when he is surfing. After doing so, I have now set myself and the dog up to succeed as he knows “off”. Then I set him up to counter surf, so when he does I can tell him “off”, and I know that he knows the command (because I already taught it), and then I make sure I am in a position to treat/praise heavily when gets off the counter. In doing so, I have showed him that listening to me gets him treats/praise and is a better option than counter surfing (which I have also made a point to make sure everything is off the counter so he isn’t inadvertently rewarded for surfing) as opposed to yelling/disciplining the dog surfing and trying to teach “off” only as the opportunity presents itself.

In your two scenarios – going inside and getting into the car. I am exaggerating here a bit, but I bet that if every time you called your dog into the house he got a hamburger, he would be more than happy to listen to you in a nanosecond. Some idea with getting into a car. You just have to figure out what makes your dog tick. 

Also, based on what you described a collar grab is the trigger. Sometime or another the dog has decided that grabbing the collar means bad things are coming, it was an effective response to get what she wants, or that she simply doesn’t like it and growling is the dogs preferred option. I would suggest working to counter condition that. I would grab her collar, and quickly give her a high value treat. I would try to do it such that I can grab the collar and treat prior to the growl. The idea is that now she thinks “ Collar grab = good things” . I would slowly work up to where I could rush in in a pseudo panic, grab the collar like I am breaking up a dog fight, and have the dog look at me like “cool – a tasty treat/praise is coming my way”.

Dogs inherently want to please you and do the right thing….so if they aren’t doing what you want, you probably haven’t succeeded in showing them what you want and that it is the better option. Far too often, you tell the dog what you don’t want, but never reward for doing what you want. You’ll yell OFF when the dog is surfing, but then immediately fail to praise as soon as the feet hit floor.

Hope that helps…

Nate


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I have to say not all of my training methods are based on the pup getting a treat, as in a food reward. My female June is highly food motivated, and will literally work for food. Cash is sometimes okay with treats, but praise for a job well done, or a correction for refusal is what fits his temperament.
Lucy is a high pry driven hunting machine, and could have cared less if you even existed when out in a field. I could have covered myself in hotdogs, and would have been no interest to her. Her learning birds come for me, helped to change that. Along with after recall, she was going to be released to run again. The faster she could get back to me, the sooner she would be released to continue hunting.
Find what motivates your dog to work with you.


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

Just like TexasRed stated...the dog gets to decide what is high value, so keep that in mind. It doesn't have to be food. It could be a favorite toy, petting, promise of finding a bird (if you are in the field etc)...

Nate


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

V's are Very ritualistic - from 8wks - 14yrs - you create some & they create some - if positive 4 the pup & me I never change them - 8wks potty training - I put a whistle lanyard on & carried a lead - even though I carried the pup out side - they become clues what will happen next - in your case - only touch the collar with a lead & then take them out as a reward - it may work - with PIKE at 6yrs - if he is sitting at the bedroom door when I get up - he wants 2 go out & I honor it every time - but he knows we are not going out till the lanyard is put on - this started @ 8wks old & will last his life time - the list of PIKE's rituals is not that long & mine is not - but when you both honer them - life gets Very easy !!!!!


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## fullmanfamily (Oct 17, 2014)

It's interesting reading through your comments on training with Vizsla's-- Ruby is very food orientated. I just need to remember to always bring treats along (high value treats). I'm really glad we have this forum because Vizsla training does seem different than other breeds. When I talked with my mother about discipline and puppies, she immediately said to give a firm " No" look straight at the dog, stare them down, and tell them "You're the boss." I guess I had a hunch that this wouldn't be the best approach for Vizsla's. She's always had golden retrievers and labs.

I will try to remember to use positive reinforcement! Thanks so much to all of you!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I hope your not luring her with treats, but producing the treat after she has completed the task.


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## fullmanfamily (Oct 17, 2014)

Just a follow-up on this...we didn't have any issues with her for about a week until this morning. We've been trying hard to not pick her up because she is ten months old and shouldn't need to be picked up to do things she doesn't want to do. Treats have been working. 

This morning she was especially tired and got on the couch before she was suppose to leave to go to daycare. When my husband called her off the couch (with treats) she didn't listen. Eventually he went over to pick her up>>>she protested with the growl, snippy routine. He didn't pick her up, but instead looked at her and said no, then continued to try and get her off the couch with treats and praise. After about ten minutes she did get off the couch, after which he rewarded her with a treat. 

So, my question is....when she protest when we go to pick her up so we stop, scold her, etc. or just pick her up so she doesn't think that growling gives her the upper hand? 

Based on what we've read in this forum in the past, it seems like scolding may not be a good approach, but sometimes we just don't have time to play games with her antics in the morning before work and treats don't always motivate her.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Is sounds (I could be wrong) like you are luring her off the couch with treats.
I wouldn't do this. You only produce a treat, or praise after a command has been completed. You don't hold the treat out in front of them, to get them to do something at that age.
If it was my dog, I would most likely put a short light weight rope attached to her collar. This way I'm not having to reach for her collar, to get her off the couch. Give her whatever command you use when you want her off, and then pull her off the couch with the lead. Your not yanking her off, just having her follow through like you would with any other command.
Her and I would be practicing up, and down multiple times a day. 
The treats/praise would get less and less. Meaning she may have to do it 2 times before she gets the reward. Later move it to 3 times, and keep going. 

If we are working on a training session, she would get the treat or praise. But if I'm just telling her to get down in a normal course of a day, she would get neither. 
I'm not sure if your dealing with a behavioral problem, or she is spoiled. Either way you need to tighten up on her obedience without being to overbearing.


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## fullmanfamily (Oct 17, 2014)

Thanks for this feedback. She did have a collar and short leash on this morning. We gave the command and tried to pull her off, but she wouldn't budge. She only got a treat after she got off the couch. I think mu husband also had some trouble getting her into the car though, as that took quite some effort as well.

Major disobedience when she's tired--that's what I'm seeing. We're going to work with her a lot this weekend on training. Back to basics.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

> We gave the command and tried to pull her off, but she wouldn't budge.


I don't understand.
She doesn't weigh 300 lbs. 
Maybe you can video it next time she does this to your husband.


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## fullmanfamily (Oct 17, 2014)

We didn't pull her that hard, I'm sure if we used more force we could have gotten her off the couch! Maybe we just need to be a little tougher with her!


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

LOL - pick up a 10mo old PUP - treat train 4 bad behavior ? go RANDOM - get up a 4 in the morning - turn the lights & TV on - put a higgins lead on the pup - 1 command here - pull off the couch - they will follow u - out the door 4 a fun walk / flash lights - take back your LIFE !!!!!!


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

fullmanfamily said:


> ... Maybe we just need to be a little tougher with her!


I think that you do need to. She needs to know who's in charge and being too gentle and letting her get away with stuff gives a bad message - that she is in charge. Things only get worse if that happens.

Bob


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