# Very dominant male puppy



## Rachyd03

Hi everybody,

We picke our 9 1/2 week old puppy 6 days ago. He is adorable and we have already fallen head over heels for him. We recently got married and this was a present to me and my husband from each other. 

We chose the vizsla and they are exactly what we are looking for in a dog. We currently have a two year old Lhasa apso aswell and have both grown up with dogs all lives and are quite experienced. We wanted a friend for our other dog and a new play mate for our two young children. This is the reason why we chose the vizsla as they are meant to be fantastic family pets with a loving temprament and their need to be involved in family life. We are an active family aswell and felt this breed would fit in perfectly with our family life.

We brought him home and he has been a pleasure up until yesterday. He is doing fantastically with toilet training, his recall is really good. He's now happy in his crate. No crying for the last two nights and the other nights we only had half an hour of cryin so we have been very lucky. We have spent alot of tine with him but also let him rest. He has list of toys to also entrrtain him.

He seems a very confident puppy which I was expecting and is also very stubborn which again I knew what I was letting myself in for but yesterday and today he has growled and snapped at me 3 times in total. The first time he was on the couch and when I tried to move him he growled and snapped at me. I was very firm and got him off the couch and since then have not let him back on. He lies in his bed now by the side of the couch where we sit. Then today he has done it again. He jumped up while I got up. When I went to lift him down he growled and then snapped at my hand. I was very firm when telling him off but conscious not to be harsh because of the sensitivity of the breed. He also snapped at me and growled in the garden when I removed him from the outside drain. He kept going for it and I kept firmly telling him no and after about the tenth time I picked him up and that is when it happened.

I am really just wondering if anybody has any advice as to how to deal with Flynn when he is doing this and also if you think there is a problem. I no it is very early days but obviously I have two young children to think about also. 

Just to add aswell the children have been out most of the days since we have had him and so have never tormented him or provoked him.

Any advice would be really appreciated

Thanks 

Rach


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## redbirddog

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/10/i-read-they-were-good-with-kids.html

474 posts regarding dogs and especially Vizslas on my blog.

Hope some of the information is helpful.

RBD


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## texasred

How old are your kids?


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## Rachyd03

Thanx RBD I'll have a look.

Texasred my girls are 1 and 4


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## texasred

With kids that young I would call the breeder and ask if the puppy can be returned.
Young kids like to get face to face with dogs and that can lead to a nasty bite from a dominant dog.


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## threefsh

I 2nd TexasRed's recommendation. A reputable breeder would never let a dominant pup go to a family with small kids. I would worry about potential health problems in future as well if he came from a puppy-mill type situation. It's best at this point to cut your losses & save yourself some future heartache by returning the pup now.


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## Rachyd03

Thanx everyone for replying. 

I am a stay at home mum and have had dogs all my life and so know I can trai. This dog well. I knew they were dominant breed and have been doing very well so far up until yesterday. Like I say his recall, sit command, down command are brill and his toilet training is excellent so I know I can handle this breed.

The breeder had both mum and dad and it wasn't a puppy farm. When we went to view the pups I spent ages asking lots of questions about the breed and specifically mentioned about the two children. Her answer was that she has 4 children with two vizslas and that they are fantastic.

I understand the comment about children being in dogs faces etc but is that not the sane with any dog. I really did do my research on this dog and understand that they like to be dominant and it's about you wing the leader of the paxk and establishing that without being harsh or using physical punishment.

In everyones view would what I have described seem aggressive or just normal puppy behaviour


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## redbirddog

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/12/history-and-misconceptions-of-dominance.html

Rachyd03, excuse a few of us who work with rescue Vizsla organizations and hear repeat stories about children and high strung Vizslas. Once your pup is no longer a pup but a dog in about a year he will be a handful.

You have your challenges lined up for sure. There are members of this forum who can successfully pull off small children and a Vizsla. But for every success story there is a dog that has to be placed into rescue or returned to the breeder for rehoming.

Bailey's, my male, first name, I gave him when he came to live with us was REPO. 

Not every pup in every litter is equal, just like every kid or every owner is the same..

Good luck and don't let our bluntness turn you off. We key off of written words that don't always paint the full picture.

Happy trails and trials,
RBD


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## threefsh

Vizslas are not a dominant breed - it is each dog's personality that determines whether they are dominant or submissive. Our Riley is very submissive & we specifically wanted that in a V because we plan on having children in a few years. We can take a raw bone right out of her mouth with no fuss. If you are set on a Vizsla, return this pup and see if the breeder will let you have one from the next litter who will fit better with your family. A good breeder will gladly take the pup back and find it a more suitable home.


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## Rachyd03

No not at all RBD I'm just grateful of any advice  

I completely understand and feel te sane way as you guys do. Nothing annoys me more than people buying dogs because of their stunning looks etc without doing their research and then simply because of their lack of it the poor dog has to suffer. It's awful.

This is my dilemma now. I couldn't possibly have done anymore research into this breed. I read constantly on this forum about vizslas and children and like said alot can cope and deal with it and when I was doing my research j felt those who did t cope either were not experienced with dogs in general or just didn't have the patience or didnt do the research etc.

I was fully prepared for Flynn to turn our lived upside down for a considerable amount of time ( not just a bad way but full on). We are the type of family that I feel could cope with all that and at the end of it have the most wonderful dog. We could wait for the long walks and all the training. It was part ofte package for us. Not the aggressive side that he has shown though.

This is my dilemma now. I don't want to just palm him off back onto the breeder. If people think that this is normal puppy behaviour and that it doesn't mean he has an in built aggressive streak then brilliant I would love advice on how to deal with him when he showing this behaviour.

I have never seen this behaviour before in a puppy and believe me we have had many dogs in my family


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## redbirddog

> I don't want to just palm him off back onto the breeder.


Rachyd03. A good breeder would be happy to work with you! They want to get the right dogs with the right family. That is the deal with breeding. Ever buy a shoe that didn't fit? Vizslas have to fit and they all don't.

Threefsh's Riley is a sweetheart of a Vizsla and submissive as she said but a good little hunter. Bailey is, as our breeder called him, "A dog and a half." 

Don't beat yourself up. Work with your breeder. It really is part of the deal.

RBD


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## texasred

Rachyd03
I own three vizslas two females and one male.
My male was like yours but his aggression started when he was older. I was just drawn to this pup. When I told the breeder my pick, he told me that one is head strong. He could tell even at such a young age. I had owned other hunting dogs in the past and my youngest child was entering high school so I figured it would be no big deal.
Fast forward to a 9 month old pup that has the speed of a cobra when he bites. He knows I won't stand for it but that my son is a softy. This dog is never allowed to be face level with anyone but me and my husband. Even with all on his training it still can be tough. If I had young kids I wouldn't have been able to keep him. 
My two females are different from him. They have never show any signs of even thinking of being aggressive.

I wanted to add that even thou my breeder knew my pup would need an experienced person to handle him, he didn't know that my pup would be that aggressive. He would have never sold him. He helped me so much going through the tough months with him. Even speaking to other trainers and breeders to help me. If I were you I would let your breeder know whats happening.


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## flynnandlunasmom

Rachyd03, is your dog's name Flynn? That right there is your problem! 

I'm kidding, obviously, but I have an aggressive male vizlsa who is also named Flynn. He too came from a reputable breeder. 

He started out with behavior like your pups and it escalated. At about age 2 he was at his peak. He would resource guard, snap if we tried to tell him "off", wouldn't let us take anything from him, etc. 

We worked our asses off with a behaviorist and made a lot of progress. He's 7 now and rarely does exhibits this behavior anymore...but it still happens occasionally. He's moody and he know who he can and can't get away with this behavior with. My husband and I were away last week and Flynn was home with my mother-in-law and dog-walker. Both told me Flynn growled and curled his lip at them a couple of times. He doesn't nip anymore, but he curls the lip as a warning. 

To this day, we don't really trust Flynn with strangers (dogs or people) and he is not allowed around small children. He has tried to nip kids on a few occasions. We don't have kids now but we are expecting one soon. We have already decided that Flynn will not interact with our child. I mean, we'll all go on walks together and I'd have the baby and Flynn in the same room with me under a watchful eye, but no playing/interacting. It's the only way I can guarantee Flynn will be able to remain a member of our family for the rest of his life. It's sad but he is who he is and we love him.

This will be easier for us since he'll be pretty old by the time our child is old enough to really take interest him him. It won't be as hard to keep them separated (plus we have another dog). But, I understand this is a very different situation from what you are in since you have young kids and a new puppy. I just wanted to give you my perspective of life with an aggressive V (named Flynn, no less). Someone else probably would have given our Flynn up but we were determined to work with him to make things better for all of us. We adore him. 

We also have a 1 year old female V (Luna) whom we've had since 7 weeks and she has not shown any signs of aggression and I don't see it developing. I actually think Flynn has mellowed out a bit now that she's around. 

I wish you all the best!


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## Rachyd03

Threefsh we can take any toy from him including bones and he is absolutly fine. I have made sure even my 4 year old does this so he knows where his place is. Also iv made sure I'm right y him when he's eating and ge doesn't bother at all. He seems to only get narky when it is something ge doesn't want to do or he is getting annoyed at me telling him no to something he wants to do. 

Texasred what age did it start with your male. Flynn is only 10 weeks old so I'm hoping and praying it's just him trying to establish his place in the house and just pushing the boundaries and seeing how far he can go. 

I have rang a dog behaviourist and she has sed it is normal puppy behaviour and we just need to be persistent with him and not to carry him so he's not as high as the adults. To use a-a instead of no. She sed if he does get up on the couch so say a-a firmy and to gently grab him by the scruff of the neck and shakenit a bit and pull him of te couch instead od lifting him. She sed this is what is mum would do


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## redbirddog

I guess the title "Very dominant male puppy" was a mistake and it is just normal?

I'd take this pup for a real evaluation soon while it is a young pup.

Once it is older rehoming is 100 times more difficult.

You seem to be talking yourself into "everything is fine."

Your dog and life. Good luck but *please* be careful of your children and this dog. 

Once a dog becomes a "biter" then rehoming is almost never an option and then the other options become much worse. :-\

RBD


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## Rachyd03

Flynnandlunasmum it must just be flynns  

RBD I have decided I am going to give it another week and see how we go on and put into practice what the behaviourist said and see if that helps.

If not then I will contact the breeder as it won't be thenright environment for the dog or the children and my main worry would be him going to a new loving home and we have more chance of that thebyounger he is


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## SerCopper

Rachyd03...

Sounds like all 3 instances involved you picking up the pup? 

If this is the case I would do some work on picking him up and making it a positive expierience. Try doing it at other times when he is not getting into things/being difficult. Reward him for letting him pick you up etc. If it is an issue at this times also try smaller steps.


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## mswhipple

Rachyd03, you've already received some excellent advice, and I really can't add any more. Just want to wish you the best in your efforts to deal with this. 

I must say, this whole thread was kind of stunning to me, because I have always read that the Vizsla is a "soft" dog, meaning that his temperament is typically friendly and quite submissive. That, in fact, matches up with my own personal experience with the Vizsla. Just an observation... There is "typical" and then there is "atypical", I guess. Good luck!

p,s, Ultimately, this is a breeding issue, since temperament is supposed to be a part of the total package, along with show potential and hunting ability (bench and field). The breeder needs to give it very serious consideration, always. JMHO.


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## hotmischief

redbirddog said:


> You seem to be talking yourself into "everything is fine."


Rachyd03

I have to agree with RBD - you opening post describes behaviour that rings alarm bells with several very experienced members of this forum who recognise and have experience of aggressive dogs. They have expressed their concerns for your puppy and your family. I have never had an aggressive dog thank god. I have had lots of dogs over the years but I do not kid myself that I am experienced enough to "train" an aggressive puppy. You and your behaviourist may think this is normal behaviour but I don't and it would seem that several members who have aggressive dogs do recognise this behaviour. My 6 month old male Vizsla has NEVER growled at me - this is normal behaviour. In fact neither have any of the 6 Gt Danes I have raised over the years, have exhibited this growling behaviour.

I am surprised that your breeder allowed you to choose such a dominant male. As already stated most breeder know their pups and will suggest ones that will fit in with a prospective buyers requirements. My breeder certainly did and I am thrilled with the pup she helped me choose.

Be honest with yourself - how will you feel if this puppy bites one of your children?? Do you want the worry that when you take him for walks that he might have a go at a member of the public or another dog. Yes you love this puppy, but will you love him in six months time when he is proving too much for you to handle and is a menace to your children. Surely it would be safer to get a puppy that you will not have to worry might bite one of your children. Please don't take a chance with the life of your children or the puppy.


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## Rachyd03

Sercooper it does seem this way yes. I have been picking him up lots at other times n he is fine but maybe this was the problem that he saw himself as the same height as me and therefore the alpha. I am going to stop picking him up from now on.

Thanx mswhipple 

Hotmischief believe me I would never put my children in danger. That is the whole point of my thread. I have had lots of dogs but never a vizsla so that is why I posted on here to get everyones opinion for the sake of my children and this puppy. 

I also do not kid myself to be able to 'train, an aggressive dog but if you read threads on this very forum people have also had similar situations and they have done similar things tovwhat I am planing on doing and their dogs are fine now. What icing want is to give up on this dog too soon and him end up in a home which he would not be loved like he would in ours but believe me no matter how much I love this dog my children come first and if this keeps happening over the next couple of days I will be contacting the breeder


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## texasred

The growl meaning I can't be bothered I'm resting 3-4 months. He was nine months old when he started to do the dominant stance if told to do something by anyone he felt maybe weak. If they showed fear he would snap at them to get his way. If you weren't quick you could be bitten. If he was tired and laid down he would try and consider the whole room off limits to other people. If sent to his crate he started to snarl and guard it. Daring everyone but me to try and come near it. He spent many days leashed to me while in the house. Kenneled outside if kids were over.
He did bite me once. He was going to snap at my son and I snatched him before he could. I wouldn't turn him loose till he obeyed me. He bit my hand and I still wouldn't back down till he obeyed. 
He is three and a half years old now and its been a long time since he has tried to bite anyone, but he will never be a dog that I trust with other people.
He was neutered and will never pass on these dominant aggressive genes.
Having two small kids in the house you won't be able to do the day in day out training that they require, and keep the kids safe at the same time. Its better to return him and let someone with more experince and no kids provide him a home. If you wait till he is older and out of controll that most likly won't happend. He will be put down.
Sorry I wish I had better news. Go in the bedroom have a good cry and then take him back.


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## born36

Right whoa guys whoa whoa!!!!

Step back here. We are talking about a 9 week old pup that hasn't been in their new home for more than 1 week with a first time V owner!!! Right, Right.!

So is this really dominant behaviour? I wouldn't think so. You more time to establish this. Early signs maybe but way too early to tell. Imagine how confused this pup is that it less than a week ago was removed from everything it knows. Great that is show so much confidence as you stated but going to pick up a sleeping pup leads it to snap well pups need to learn that part of life in this new house is that they get asked to move. The key is to remain calm and put boundaries in place.

All the advice given is good so far but I would apply it to a pup that was maybe 2 or 3 months in the new home not a week. The first week of a pup in a new home can be tough. Also I am not sure if in all your research if you are aware of the Shark phase. Your pup will be putting his mouth on you your kids and tearing clothes. So you will have struggles ahead but this first week mishap and worry is the first of many.

My pup Mac was so confident and his shark phase was crazy but he wasn't aggressive. Pay attention to the sign but you owe it to this pup to give it more time. One week! Please give your boy more time to settle before labeling him dominant or aggressive.


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## Angie NG

We are in the same situation with the barking, our pup is coming up to 10 weeks old. It isn't happening all the time, normally boredom or when she is doing something in the garden she shouldn't be and I tell her no. She can be a bit of a nipper but looking in her mouth we ca see why. Regarding the barking, we had started to do it back to her. This made her worse, today she did it to me as she was getting far to excited on the sofa. I picked her up and put her in her crate for time out for a few minutes. It worked as she didn't like this at all. Going to carry on doing this, we are at the vets next week for her second jabs and if it is still happening will get her advice.
I think it is still early days and she is not very old, apart from this she is fine. Great round strange people, gets very excited around the kids. I felt very disheartened when I came on here last night and read all the comments. Although i do think peoples views were how they felt i have to agree with born36. I could not imagine not having Bella with us, she is already very much part of the family and if we do need her to see a behaviourist at some point we will. We can't just give her back after 2 weeks, I feel we need to try and make it work and if she is still like this in a few months then we will think again


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## Rachyd03

Born36 I completely agree on every level. I'm expecting the shark attacks which havnt happend yet but I no they will. That won't bother me as much. Last night I rang the breeder to ask her advice and wether she had seen any of this behaviour before from him. I actually came off the phone in floods of tears. She says he was fine and not the alpha male at all and was quite quiet which we saw when we picked him up. She then went on to say basically it was my fault. She sed you have two choices either put up with him or sell him. She has no care as to where he ends up which upset me alot but then she also said I hope you have 'leathered' him for what he is doing. It's horrific. I would dream of leathering any dog particularly not this sensitive breed. My original thought of a week was so if we did pass him bk onto the breeder it wouldn't be too late for her to sell him on.I.e at the leggy not as cute phase. Anyway that is no option coz I wouldn't give him bk to her if someone paid me too. Anyway I rang a dog behaviourist and we are having a 2 hour one on one on Sunday. She thinks it is nothing to worry about. I specifically mentioned te children and my worries about wether this is signs if a aggressive dog and she didn't think so at all so that has helped alot as reading these replies on here scared me. That's two behaviourists now that have said they r confident it doesn't mean he is aggressive but that he is just trying to assert his authority and so that is why we are having this session on Sunday to get guidance on how to deal with him in the appropriate and correct way. I am a responsible dog owner and want the beat for my dad and my children and 'leathering' the dog is just not an option for me.

Angie ng has she snapped at all. Flynn has and that was what worried me. They are meant to be vocal dogs so maybe the barking isn't a problem. I'll let you know what our behaviourist says when we have met with her. 

Also I changed his food when he came to me. I have done I gradually but I am wondering if this is having an adverse affect on him. Ge wa on really bad dog food before ( in my opinion) and so have changed him onto jwb. What is everyones opinion in this food


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## mswhipple

Oh geez, *born36*, you are correct!! I guess in sifting through all of the posts here, I kind of lost sight of the fact that this puppy is still very, very young... Just a BABY, really... You are so right!!


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## redbirddog

> She then went on to say basically it was my fault. She said you have two choices either put up with him or sell him. She has no care as to where he ends up which upset me a lot, but then she also said I hope you have 'leathered' him for what he is doing. It's horrific.


*Moral of the story: * Know the breeder. I hate to read stories like this. Make sure if they have a website that you place comments on it so unaware puppy buyers know what kind of breeder this is.

Good luck with the behaviorist and we'll be here to help. My guess is temperment in the dogs bred wasn't much of a priority in this mating. 

RBD


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## SkyyMax

Rachyd03, it's very sad that the breeder does not care about the pup...

I believe only a very small percentage of puppies are truly aggressive. He is more likely trying to establish his dominance.
Our Max was the most dominate male out of the litter (not our first choice), but when we went to choose the puppy, it was "love at first sight". 
We brought Max home and he "turned" into a little terrorist - barking, nipping, growling, humping legs, etc, etc... All of these were signs of dominant behavior. It took a lot of work and the changes did not happen overnight, so you must be patient.

If the puppy let you do the following without trying to bite your hand off (he could still wiggle, whine and nip), he is not aggressive: 
- gently stroke the pup from head to tail
- touch his paws, between toes (apply some pressure)
- open his mouth to see the teeth
- check his ears

Nipping is normal pup behavior, it could last until he gets all his adult teeth 

Best of luck, please keep us posted!


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## flynnandlunasmom

I do agree it is early but it still doesn't sound like completely normal behavior. If it were, then I don't think Rachyd03 would have posted this in the first place. I think the reason so many people jumped onto the aggressive portion of this thread is the title of the thread. I told my story of my 7 years (and still going strong) with an aggressive vizsla because I wanted the poster to know it can be done, with a lot of hard work. I never suggested he give the dog up. I adore my dog and my husband and I are often reminded of the Cesar Milan quote "you don't always get the dog you want, you get the dog you need" and that is how we feel about our Flynn. I think the poster is smart to be aware and concerned and it and it sounds like he is taking all of the appropriate steps to find out if this could be a potential problem. I hope it is not. I really do.


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## flynnandlunasmom

Oh yeah, for what it's worth, we've been told our dog has "fear aggression". He's not a dominant alpha by nature but sometimes when he doesn't feel secure he will try to be - or he will try to up his status in our pack. I refer to him as "aggressive" in this thread but it is not all the time by any means. It's episodic and now at 7, pretty rare. For the majority of the time, he's the same cuddly, lovable, sweet, nutty vizsla as all the rest of them are. He means the world to me.


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## texasred

Angie NG
Your pup sounds like a normal V puppy.
Barking and nipping while playing.

Rachyd03
Your breeder sounds horrible.
Leathering one of these dogs is the last thing anyone should ever do. Much less telling someone to do that to a puppy. Until your behaviorist gets to come evaluate him I would keep him off all furniture.
If he turns to snarling biting when you have you hands on him just hold him still till he quits. Once he is still let him go.
You SHOULD be able to tell the difference between I playing barking growling and I'm biting you to get my way.


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## texasred

flynnandlunasmom
The reason I told her to send him back was due to small kids in the house. Its so tough to work with one of these dogs. Even hard having older teens in the house, they easily forget the rules and a small slip up can lead to a bite.
Their progress can be slow and they do have set backs.
I'm sure you already know all of this raising Flynn.
Just think how hard it would have been when he was younger if you would have had small kids in the house.


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## flynnandlunasmom

I completely understand that TexasRed. We're still nervous about bringing a baby into the house now and Flynn is so much better than he was.


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## lilyloo

We had a very dominant beagle puppy while I was growing up. Her growling began much like your puppy's, when we tried to move her from the bed while she was sleeping. It eventually progressed to snapping at us, although she never actually bit anyone her whole 13 years of life. When she snapped at us we would give her a firm "NO!" and she would get a quick time-out.

She never had any formal training, though I am sure we all would have benefited greatly from that. 

We did the best we knew how, and it was manageable. She knew her place in the household, but would challenge it. As others have said, the key is to not show any fear or worry when the pup/dog is growling at you. If they sense it, they feed off of it. If you don't back down, most times they will back down. Our dog always did.

We had to be very firm with our beagle girl. She was allowed on furniture but we trained her to ask permission first. She never got on the couch unless invited. When guests were over, she had a certain place in the house that she was trained to sit at. It was in an area that she could see everything going on. She actually did very well with this, and we found it worked better than putting her up in her crate,etc.

We always said that if she was in the wrong household she could have been a very dysfunctional dog. I know I haven't offered much advice, but I hope that you find a solution and that your V finds his place within your home.


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## texasred

flynnandlunasmom said:


> I completely understand that TexasRed. We're still nervous about bringing a baby into the house now and Flynn is so much better than he was.


One thing that helped a lot with my boy was teaching him to go lay on a pad in my bedroom when he was tired or got moody. Lots of watching and reading his body language and being able to send him on command to go lay down in my room. Now he will do it on his own. He will go down the hall and sit at my bedroom door. I let him in and he will lay on his pad away from everyone else to rest. My door stays closed so no one but me or my husband will enter when he is resting. He will give one small yip to let you know when he is ready to come back out and join the rest of the world. It took sooo long to get him this way and I don't believe you can achieve that till long past the puppy stage.


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## Rachyd03

Thank you everyone for all your advice and support. Sorry about y spelling my phone keeps predictive texting.

I have not let him back on the furniture since the first incident and he seems to be getting the idea now. He occasionally jumps up on the very few occasions we have taken our eyes off him fir a second ( the little clever monkey  ) but as soon as I say a-a Flynn Flynn down he comes down. Skyymax Flynn sounds very similar to yours. He is very good in every other way than what I have described and you can touch him Anywhwete and ge is not bothered. You can take his toys away from him and out your hand in his food bowl and he does nothing. He is brilliant in his crate. No crying fir the last 4 nights and he has never done any of his business in there. I have worked hard on trying to make the crate a positive place giving a treat when he goes in and when I let him out. He will now venture in by himself all be it not for long but never the less he must feel happy in there.


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## KKvizslamom

My Vizsla pup Apline is 3 months old. He growls and snaps at us if we try to move him when he is settled. If he has a bone or plastic bottle he is chewing on he growls if we try to take it away. I'll take things away from him to let him know that he's not top dog. He's fine with his food bowl. I can stick my hands in it and take it away and he does not growl. Its just when he's just starting to fall asleep or when I pick him to move him. I'm not sure if he is testing the waters or is aggressive. I've never had a Vizsla but just like you I did tons of research and bought a bunch of books and started training as soon as he came home. Everything I read about the breed was that they are not aggressive. I can't even cope with the thought of replacing him. He's already such a part of our lives. I'm engaged and after reading all the comments about the children, I'm very concerned for our future with children and Alpine. I would also like to find a way to correct his behavior. I googled tons of way to establish dominance but I think if its aggression it is a whole different ball game. I'm open to any advice.


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## flynnandlunasmom

I just wanted to say that people keep saying they read or heard that "the vizsla breed is not aggressive" which is true, but that doesn't mean there aren't aggressive vizslas. I mean, humans are generally good but we all know there can exceptions. There are a lot of stories about aggressive dogs who are not part of a typically aggressive breed - set your DVR to the Dog Whisperer and you'll see a lot of this. 

Plus, the term "aggressive" often conjures up a dog that will charge and bite and growl, often unprovoked. That's not what we're all describing though. We're talking about dogs who challenge authority and don't like to be put in their place which can lead to aggressive behavior and biting or nipping.


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## kmmosca

Hi! 
We are new Vizsla owners too, but we also have an older lab. One thing we did a lot with our older lab (especially when he got into the "crazy puppy mode" where he ran around in circles trying to bite us when he reached us) is put him on his back and pin him down calmly. We hold him there until he stops struggling to get out. When he is wriggling a lot to get out, we give a firm "NO." Our V has moments when she starts getting too riled up and a little nippy (in an "I'm angry" sort of way, not normal mouthiness) and I have started doing the same with her. She calms down and usually lays down and naps right after. The purpose of doing this is to show the dog that we are dominant in the relationship. Cool little note... at the dog park when dogs are establishing dominance, they will sometimes do this to the less dominant dog. It verifies that we are speaking our doggie's language


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## Angie NG

Bella has not snapped at me no, but have to say the barking has alarmed me. Not so much today though, the two timers she has done it I have said no barking and put her into her crate in the hope she realises I am not going to put up with her barking. She doesn't like it at all and when I bring her back out f her crate she is much happier and calm. Just a quick ? Rachyd03, where did you get your pup from. There were a couple picking up a pup from our breeder and had just got married. Although not sure they had 4 children, i only saw 1 child when we picked our pup up.


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## Rachyd03

We live in England and got him from Yorkshire. We have 2 children but did have our eldest there when we picked him uo. She absolutly loves dogs. 

I really want to report this breeder where we got Flynn but not sure how to do it or wether anyone thinks I have enough reason to report her?


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## Angie NG

I live in England to and also got Bella from Yorkshire, Bridlington to be exact. There was a male pup there when we got Bella. Is it possible we have the same breeder?


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## texasred

A good read from Ingle & Mead
http://www.vizsladogs.com/ARTICLES/dominant.htm

This one is from Gundog magazine.
http://www.trader.co.nz/versatiledogs/articles/domagg.htm

If you can't tell I like to research more than one method.
I might not agree with everything in an article but there is usually something that will be usefull.


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## hobbsy1010

JWB, James Well Beloved = Good Food very very expensive.

CSJ Little Champ Good Food very reasonable.

Hopefully the behaviourist will put you right.

You have had experience with dogs and puppies, maybe you just got big shock.

Keep calm, be strong, and stay positive.

I thought that you should not drag the dog off the sofa by collar or scruff, but use you position and presence to get them off, again it is a little puppy.

Or teach up, with treat and off with treat.

I was frightened (petrified of dogs actually) and had to work out different ways of getting my message across.

Shutting the back door on the dog to get them away from the drain. Call the pup out of his bed to remove stolen items, and then return to bed etc etc.

My pup never did bite me,nor mouth me, he understood I did not want it, but he sure did try to challenge me.

Mrs Hobbsy


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## Rachyd03

Thanx texasred I am the same I live to read and read about things. I'll have a look at those articles.

Hobbsy1010 I thought the same about dragging him off the couch so I decided to use the treat to entice him down first and then now he will just do it by the tone of my voice. I tried the shutting the back door when he is near the drain but no luck he is a little monkey but today he has been. Owners near so mayb yest he got the msg . 

Angie ng yes deffinatly. What was her name. It was Bridlington where we got him from


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## redbirddog

Rachyd03,

I'm the kind that would call this breeder every day and ask another question and take notes.

I'd have friends call and inquire about pups and take notes.

But that's me. I hate getting burned. 

If nothing else, share here on what you find. Keep emotion out of it and never get upset.

Sounds like you bought a puppy-mill Vizsla. 

Let others learn who visit this site the difference between a puppy-mill and a hobby breeder. As I write this 61 people are on the site and 42 are guests.

RBD


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## Rachyd03

I will do that RBD. This breeder has mum n dad and asfar as I am aware has onli had 2 litters from mum. I thunk it is more of a hobby for her (or money making scheme and consequently doesn't care about the dogs). She doesn't have regular litters I don't think but I am going to keep an eye on the two popular sites where pups are advertised and look out for her. If I recognise her again I will deffinatly make it known on here and let everyone know how she treats her animals and that not to expect any help afterwards


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## flynnandlunasmom

RBD, in response to your puppy mill comment, I'm not sure I understand it?

Mostly because we got our V from a reputable breeder but he has dominance-aggression issues. 

Is it really that unlikely that a carefully bred pup could develop this behavior? I mean, I know it's technically bred out of the line, but isn't it possible it could still be there as a fluke sometimes? 

It just seems like a gray area to me? But, I admit to still having a lot to learn, which is why I'm asking.


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## hotmischief

Rachyd03,

I am so sorry that your breeder has been the nightmare from ****. It infuriates me that people like her make money from these beautiful dogs. I would write a letter of complaint to the Kennel Club and send an email to the website which advertised the litter - you never know they might have a conscense.

I wish you all the best of luck with your puppy and I sincerely hope that Flynn turns out to be a wonderful family pet. I can see that you are going to work hard to give this puppy every chance in life and I wish you every success.


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## Rachyd03

Yep that them. The lady is Fiona and it's actually her son George homer that got all the money. God knows why coz the pups lived at her house and she did all the work.

How strange that of all the breeders we have the sane one. What was your impression. Whereabouts do you live


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## Rachyd03

Thank u hotmischief hopefully we have caught thus soon enough or on the otherhand that it was nothing to begin with


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## redbirddog

> Is it really that unlikely that a carefully bred pup could develop this behavior?


A well bred Vizsla is created by looking at generations of health, temperament and ability traits of the previous five generations along with X-rays and health tests of both the sire and bitch.

Now compare that to a puppy-mill pup where Vizsla are put together out of convenience and bred without regard to any of the above.

Add a breeder who will grill you to make sure you and your circumstances are a correct fit for their pups compared to "you got money? I got dog." "You got problem? Too bad for you."

A perfectly bred high-strung Hungarian Pointer is A GOOD THING. They are supposed to be dynamic and driven. Does that make them a good "family dog?" 

I think I have made my point over the last year quite often and without reservation on both this forum and I can guarantee you that you will see dozens of post on Redbirddog about this subject.

We can't go back to when the Vizsla was fairly unknown. Now we have to work harder on educating folks to what the dog really is as opposed to what is marketed.

Lunch break over. Back to work.

RBD


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## flynnandlunasmom

RBD, I'm not sure you answered my question?

I know the difference between a well bred vizsla and a puppy-mill one and I know the problems that come with puppy-mill ones. 

The question I asked is the question you highlighted in your response: 

"Is it really that unlikely that a carefully bred pup could develop this behavior?"

All I'm saying is, no matter how good the breeder and the blood line, isn't it still possible a well bred vizlsa could still have an aggressive streak (which is not the same as "high strung")?


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## redbirddog

> All I'm saying is, no matter how good the breeder and the blood line, isn't it still possible a well bred vizlsa could still have an aggressive streak (which is not the same as "high strung")?


To answer the question. Yes, I believe it is possible. I would hope that is where the interview and early puppy evaluation comes in by the hobby breeder. An aggressive pup would be fine for some owners but surely not for a family with young children. Like TexasRed, who said she knew what she was getting.

I hope that answers that question but I'm not a professional breeder by any stretch of the imagination. Just a Hungarian Pointer owner learning more each time out with the dogs.

RBD


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## flynnandlunasmom

Thanks, that answered it.


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## harrigab

when Ruby was a whelp, she tried dominating my two young boys, mine and my wifes response was united, swiftly and with no messing she was heaved up and into another room for 5 minutes and no couch privileges. Our kids at 5 and 6 are older than yours and probably easier to reason with, but we told and taught them that they have to stand firm and not get giddy when Ruby was wanting to tease them as it would end in tears with the sharp needle puppy teeth,, sure, we had a few tears along the line but that was down to Rubes "overplaying", and at one year old (just) she knows where she stands in the scheme of things. If I get chance tomorrow I'll do a vid of my youngest son Gabriel giving Ruby some training drills as I'm proud of all 3 of them (2 boys, 1 pup) as to how they've all gained a mutual respect for each other.


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## texasred

Ha Ha RBD.
Yes ,me and the breeder both knew he would be a challenge, but the extent of the challenge was more than both of us thought. I believe part of the reason he was such a tough case was teenagers not wanting to follow the rules when I wasn't home. Letting him do things you don't let a dominant dog do. The worst was me kenneling him before I would leave and come home to find him piled up on the couch eating with them. Them thinking it was funny to let him get up on the sofa and sit next to them, barking and demanding that they do something. This was before he was a biter. I was not so nice. I told them if you don't stop letting him do this he will get worse. If I have to put this dog down I'm going to place part of the blame on you. Just leave him in the kennel when I'm not here. Them and my husband though I must be overreacting. No way this cute little pup could ever turn on someone, and these rules can't be that big of a deal. Fast forward to a biter. In hindsight I just should have put him in the outside kennel with a pad lock, when I wasn't home. 
I don't know how much better he would have been if everyone would have heeded my warnings. My boy was the only one out of the litter that was this way. So yes he did know how to tell the difference in puppy temperaments. His female has a excellent temperament, he guides youth upland hunts with her every year. The stud he used was from a very good trialing kennel. Had a very good pedigree and was active in derbies and then hunt tests. He didn't place any blame on the stud dog but never used him again.


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## Skyfly

My 4 month old V recently started getting territorial over the sofa. When we tried moving him, he would growl. We spoke to our trainer about it and she suggested we take away his couch privilege. She also suggested we handle him while he's sleeping on the floor. If he growled, in which he did on a few occasions we would keep handling him until he stopped growling, then we would treat him. If we disturbed his sleep and he did not growl we would treat him. Eventually, he began to associate being woken up to be a positive experience and has learnt to accept it.


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## ali_bishbosh

Hi, 

I would just like to make a note about the breeders, I'v read the thread and am pretty sure these are the same people we nearly bought a puppy from.
When i rang to enquire the husband spoke to me and was willing to give me a puppy without us even meeting them, and with us only giving minimal info as to our situation. He also informed me that due to a marital breakdown he would like us to give him half the total cost up front via paypal transfer (still without meeting the dogs) and give the remainder of the total to his wife when we collected the puppy as she was trying to "screw him out of all the money". I told him I was uncomfortable about this as the wife would have no legal obligation to give us the puppy as she had not received the deposit but was in possession of the puppies, he told me not to worry about her not giving me the puppy as he would be there to make sure she did, which made my skin crawl as the last way i would want to pick up a puppy would be to wrench it from the middle of a marital dispute. I told him i still had doubts and would like to see something in writing from his wife, he said he would forward me the paperwork on, but needless to say i never heard back from him, and had no intention of getting a puppy from him after these dealings anyway. 

This breeder worries me a lot as there are few Vizsla breeders in the north of England and these ones seem to be cropping up a lot in discussions, both on here, and when we did find an absolutely wonderful breeder many of his new owners had had dealing with them / concerns also.
They had two litters for sale at that time (some are only due to be picked up in the next week or two) from two separate mothers, and they used their own stud dog. On their website there were videos of several other litters from the mothers too, tho they say they are only hobby breeders. 

I apologise if I have got the wrong breeders, but if i havent i am glad that the puppies have gone to conscientious owners who intend on doing right for their futures.


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## Rachyd03

Hi skyfly I will deffinatly try this. He has only done this 3 more times and that was atthe very beginning. He has stopped it now as we don't lethim on the sofa. He had a beanbag as his bed and did it a few times on there so we removed that aswell but I will make sure we do what you suggest. Seems a very good idea. 

Hi Ali, I'm not sure wr have the same breeder. As far as I knew it was her son who was selling the pups and we never saw him. We always dealt with her. There was deffinatly only 1 litter. Do you know where this particular breeder lives that you are mentioning. We only delay with her and she did quiz us and there was never any mention of giving us the puppy without vetting us. Maybe it is the same breeder though


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## ali_bishbosh

Hi Rach, 

This breeder was in Rotherham, Yorkshire, which is why i thought it might be the same, as I say i only spoke with the husband, so thats not to say the wife was as flippant with prospective owners. The litter we were looking at was only the 2nd litter from this particular female, but there had been a few litters from another female living with them, and the other litter I mentioned had been born about 4 weeks prior to the litter we enquired about I think. 
I hope little Flynn settles down, but I think you have a good chance with him being so young so he should get the idea pretty quickly, fingers crossed!


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## Rachyd03

No I don't think it's the same breeder. They are from Bridlington so sounds like there are 2 not so good vizsla breeders up north :-(. He is settling down. Hopefully he stays that way


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## Skyfly

Personally, my theory is that some puppies may be more aggressive then others. Let's not forget, dogs are territorial animals by nature. They will try to defend their OWN territory if they feel entitled.

your puppy is young so this is not a habit he developed or learnt. You can reverse this quite easily by training him as when they are puppies they are just like sponges and should take to training quickly as long as you remain consistent. 

I remember the last time my V growled, my spouse were getting him off the couch, and he tried to show us who was boss, key word "tried" he did not succeed. What we did was when we got him off, despite the fuss he have us, we each sat on the two couches we have in our living room, me on one, my spouse on the other. We made sure our V stayed on the floor rug, despite the fact that he was whining to get back up. While he tried to climb back on the couch we told him No, and would gently and calmly redirect him the the floor. This was a good way to show him that we ( humans) lead the pack. It took about 10 minutes, then he gave up and got the idea! Don't forget staying calm and giving them eye contact is key!


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## Angie NG

Just thought I'd drop in on ali_bishbosh's comment about the breeders from Rotherham. We were very close to getting one of their puppies to, something didn't feel right to me from the beginning. The husband was far to keen for me, he kept ringing us to see if if we wanted the pup and when could we get to Rotherham. We pulled out in the end because I felt really uncomfortable, probably a good thing I did.


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## born36

This thread is great on the front of talking about breeders that aren't good but please can well all stop calling this pup aggressive. If this pup came from a pup mill or hobby breeder it doesn't mean that it is aggressive.
Go back read the first post. This is a pup that has just changed home. Less than a week in on the first post. Yes if you buy from a quality breeder you are less likely to have a pup with aggression but it isn't really a dead cert. I think the conversation around breeders is a good one but let's stop writing this pup off. You won't know for some time whether it is dominant or even aggressive. Yes it might be showing signs and as the owner you can redirect the behaviour but I feel it is wrong to already call the pup aggressive or dominant as it is 10 weeks old! 
I really do believe this is a case of young pup with first time V owner and therefore a lot of confusion. All I ask is be patient with the pup and correct bad behaviour and give them a chance before you tag them as aggressive. Vs are active and powerful even as pups!


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## OttosMama

Hi rachyd,

How are things going with Flynn? I have been following this thread and I too had immediately thought you do not have an aggressive dog and maybe not even a dominant pup. When Otto first came here, I struggled with similar issues. I can't quite recall why he would growl/snap but he was definitely very frisky and defiant. 

I contacted our breeder who put me at ease. I'm so sorry your breeder is such a monster. How can anyone "leather" a puppy?! 

I have seen videos where the puppy wears a short leash around the house, presumably to get him accustom to leash/check cord. Maybe you could do the same - that way when you are in a situation with your pup and you aren't armed with treats, you could have the leash to get him down/away from wherever it is you don't want him to be. 

Just as an observation, these dogs aren't like golden retrievers or Bernese MTn dogs. Otto is "gentle" around kids (for otto) but I would never let him approach a child on his own - where as other dogs are much more laid back and probably more appropriate family pets. That's not to say that they can't be - it will just take a lot of work. It sounds like some ppl on this forum who have worked on it with their Vs are extremely happy with the results! 

I'm not saying an aggressive puppy doesn't exist out there - I'm sure they are out there. Why not? There are timid puppies and laid back puppies. However, from what you originally describe it sounds like a similar experience to my own and my puppy is not aggressive or dominant according to the definition/articles I've read.

Keep us posted!!


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## flynnandlunasmom

born36, the owner of the puppy described this dog as aggressive in his thread and since none of us have ever met him all any of us can do is speculate. To you, it sounds like a normal puppy. To others, it sets off a few red flags. I hope you're right and that they have no issues going forward, but I also see no harm in people who have experience with aggressive pups giving him some sound advice if he does in fact have one. Ultimately, it will be up to the owner to decide. I've been following this talk thread and it sounds like he has made a lot of progress with little Flynn, which is encouraging.


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## born36

flynnandlunasmom said:


> born36, the owner of the puppy described this dog as aggressive in his thread and since none of us have ever met him all any of us can do is speculate. To you, it sounds like a normal puppy. To others, it sets off a few red flags. I hope you're right and that they have no issues going forward, but I also see no harm in people who have experience with aggressive pups giving him some sound advice if he does in fact have one. Ultimately, it will be up to the owner to decide. I've been following this talk thread and it sounds like he has made a lot of progress with little Flynn, which is encouraging.


I know what you mean Flynnandlunasmon but my post was to state that this owner doesn't know yet and I just don't want to see the pup written off as such. I have had dogs in my life as far back as I can remember and my boy is by far the biggest challenge I have faced. It is and has been very rewarding but also I do believe surprising owning a V. I had no idea really what I was in for despite doing lots of research and feeling prepared.
I just don't want a pup that is showing lots of energy and also maybe misbehaving being labeled as aggressive or dominant. Yes the post calls the pup this but I am simply saying is the pup really aggressive??? At that age and that soon words like these should not come into play. What if the pup could talk and called its owner abusive because it left it alone? In other words just like a pup might not understand us we might not understand a pup and so we should give it more time before we label it.


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## texasred

There is risk in both.
Its better to let someone evaluate the puppy and go by that. Someone that doesn't understand prey drive could easily be fooled with puppy play. Someone that wants to overlook the bad behavior and hope it will pass will have bigger problems later.
These pups aren't left alone but they don't get to sleep with you. A lot of their rules are the same as other puppies.
You just have a different outcome if you become relaxed and let them slid, or if everyone in the family isn't on the same page.


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## Veebers

Rachyd, how are things going with Flynn? Would be v interested to hear.


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## Rachyd03

Hi veebers,

He's doin brill . He had a couple of other episodes after I posted this but nothing for about 3 weeks now. I don't want to jinx anything but I think it may have been him just finding his place in the pack. He seems to have really settled down.

He is fantastic on walks. His recall is excellent. His training is going well and we are attending puppy classes and he is just brilliant in general. We don't allow him on the couch at the min which is a shame but I think it's the best thing for now as that was when he was getting a bit snappy and growling. Hopefully when he is a bit older he may be ok


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## BrodiVizsla

Hi, just been reading through all of this thread and came across the part on the breeders in Rotherham. These are the same breeders i got my V Brodi from, and i would just like to say i had a great experience from them. Brodi is now 16 months old and is the most wonderful dog, he has been super easy to train, never showed any signs of agression and is the most loving, chilled dog you could ask for and has come on great through puppyhood. i am pretty shocked to hear these comments about the breeders as they were both really great people, i visited them twice before i picked brodi up meeeting the sire and dam and his other two bitches which were all beautiful well lokked after vizslas, i was asked all sorts of questiond before they took any kind of deposit off me making sure one of their pups went to the right home. After getting Brodi home the breeders kept in contact with me regularly and they even organised a "Vizz Wizz" when the pups were 6 months old where there was about 25 vizslas from the same and previous litters all meeting up for a big walk, it was great. I think the marrige break up could have something to do with the bad experience that Angie NG and Ali_bishbosh encountered but i know there is anothr user on the forum that has had two puppies from these breeders and will vouch for everthing i have said. 

just wanted to add that .

thanks, Matt.


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## Angie NG

Hi Matt, I do apologise if any offence was taken, it certainly wasn't meant to. The breeders were a bit to pushy for me that's all, no questions about our life style or anything. We were under the impression the husband wanted to get rid of the pups quite quickly and this put me off slightly. We chose a different breeder who we actually really liked and now we have Bella there has been no contact from them at all. Just goes to show hey, we will be a bit more cautious next time.


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## Veebers

I'm glad its turned out ok rachy!


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## BrodiVizsla

@ Angie NG - No worries and no offence taken at all, just wanted to share my experience with you guys. I guess things have turned really sour for the breeders since i got Brodi its a shame because they have beautiful dogs, especially the stud Lambert and they had also just built a huge extension to their house for whelping the pups. But never mind, glad you had a happy outcome and you got the pup you wanted enjoy her!


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## ali_bishbosh

Rachy, I am really pleased everything is working out well with Flynn, almost certainly him finding his place in the pack, we are going through something similar with our puppy now with him testing the water with us! 

Matt, I am glad you had a better experience with the breeders from Rotherham, we had been looking around for a breeder for a while, and were really disappointed that they (or rather the husband) didn't live up to our expectations. I am sure the break up must have affected their need to home the puppies quicker. Though as more of a side thought, 46 previous puppies, plus the 14 they had when we contacted them recently seems a lot of breeding to me dependant on how old the dogs are. 
We were very happy with the breeder we got our boy from, both during the purchase, and they have kept in regular contact ever since. I am really sorry Rachy didn't get the same support from her breeders. Just shows it pays to do research when choosing a puppy


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## DONNBOT

Rachyd03 said:


> Yep that them. The lady is Fiona and it's actually her son George homer that got all the money. God knows why coz the pups lived at her house and she did all the work.
> 
> Hi rachyd. I have found this thread after doing some research on the breeders that you mentioned and I was taken back by their comments. How is Flynn? Did they help at all?
> I was trying to find out a little more about them and wondered if you had heard anything else about them as you said you would be following the sale sites? Tia😕


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## Betty

You sounded sad in your last writing, I had the same problems with my V, he had shark attacks down to a science. I have the saying "you have to be smarter than your dog" so, it reminds me to outsmart him. If he is on the couch, in my place (that he just stole) I will sit almost on him to make him uncomfortable, (no eye contact). He used to growl and show teeth, now he just moves over. It didn't happen overnight. I was never able to crate train him, he screamed at night, but when I left during the day he would be crated in the car. (cool weather and shade helped). Eventually he became confident enough to take a nap in the house when I left, I always exited with "go night, night be a good boy" sounds dumb, but it worked; it was the same phrase I used when I left the car. (his kennel is a solid transport kennel, and he still rides in it at 2 years old). BUT, every dog is different and their reactions are something you have to discover. That is why there is a V in loVe!


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