# Letting puppy gently bite hands?



## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Hello everyone. 

I just read this and found it absolutely incredible - a puppy oral phase (mouthing) is similar to human babies and puppies shouldn't be punished for gently mouthing our hands. 

_Puppies—like babies and young children—are very oral. They also go through a stage where they're weaned off their mother's milk. Since pacifiers, thumb-sucking, and security blankets satisfy the infant's need to stay connected, orally, to a primary source of satisfaction—i.e. the mother—, and since puppies also nurse on mother's milk, it's not much of a stretch to suggest that puppies also need transitional objects in order to go through normal oral development. Simply put, like babies, puppies need something to help them reduce their oral tension._


Has anyone had a similar experience? This seems to turn the conventional dog training wisdom upside down...

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/my-puppy-my-self/201112/the-canine-human-bond-human-fingers-puppy-pacifiers


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

I am trying to find more information on "oral fixation" in puppies.

In the meantime, I'm finding various statements that a critical function of a retriever is, well, to retrieve - i.e. carry things in their mouths. It is reasonable to assume that retrievers were specifically selected for oral fixation (in addition to tracking/prey instincts as well as temperament), in order to improve their field abilities. 

If this is all true, then it would suggest that the "oral fixation" isn't only an infant phase in hunting dogs, but actually an important instinct for a Vizsla, that really needs an outlet. 

Which in turn, leads me to believe that leveraging this when raising a puppy in a home would go a long way towards a well-adjusted adult dog. 

For example - should puppy "games" that we use to train him involve things that actively work this instinct? For example - games that train the puppy to carry things for its owners as part of the job (I'm talking about companion, not the field dogs here)?


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

We have practiced letting Riley mouth our hands since she was a pup. As a result, I can put my hand fully in her mouth and she VERY gently mouths me until I remove my hand. We have trained her not to grab for our hands. We let her mouth on *our* terms, and I think that is the key. We also hold kong toys and other chew toys for her while she gnaws on them. I agree that it is important to allow mouthing, but only if it is done correctly.


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## laurita (Jun 12, 2011)

I can only comment on polkan's question about allowing the puppy to carry things. Since vizslas seem to love having things in their mouths and because they love having something to do, I have mine "help" me quite a bit. I began this after about 6 months old, but if I do laundry and have my hands full and drop something, I point to the article (if I can!) and ask my dog to pick it up for me. He'll tag along with it hanging from his mouth and appears to be really happy to help. I praise him like crazy when he follows me with it. I did the same thing with a bag of recyclables. I placed a light bag in his mouth for him to carry for me. But of course, you have to do it with a grain of salt, allowing time and space for the inevitable hilarious moments that come along with this-- for ex the dog carrying the bag trips, and everything spills all over the place (seeing it happen makes the mess worth it because it's so darned cute); similarly, you can probably imagine that the article of clothing doesn't always make it back to you. They sometimes are carried outside while the dog does the "bucking bronco" with it in his mouth as though he's waving some sort of banner. 

The other fun thing is to write a note, put it in the dog's mouth, and send him/her to another person (while the person is calling him). Mine loved that as a young pup. 

I think that these things use the dog's instinct and maybe give the puppy a sense of worth (?) or importance. They seem to really have fun with it.


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Hi threefsh and laurita, and thanks for your comments. 

I'm very curious if you have ever noticed any stronger/more motivated responses, even if slightly so, when the games you played mimicked or imitated (however remotely) anything that channels the hunting instincts (like carrying objects, or perhaps training them to "find" things)? 

A coworker told me that her (admittedly older) Vizsla seems a lot more_ passionate_ and, at the same time, more calm/controlled about finding toys she plants here and there around the house and in the park? 

I have a very strong suspicion that being a typical "crazy" Vizsla must be somehow connected to a form of boredom or being unfulfilled on some level, hence the questions...


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Hi, polkan -- ALL puppies nip and bite during play. The sensation of being bitten by a puppy is unpleasant to people since puppy teeth are needle-sharp! The nipping and biting are normal behaviors, though.

What Kevin Behan is describing in that section of "Natural Dog Training" is really how to train for bite inhibition in the puppy. While the puppy will still bite (and will naturally grow out of doing), puppy won't bite down so hard. Often, if the puppy is taken away from his mom and siblings early, bite inhibition will be harder to teach. If puppy stays with littermates a bit longer, THEY will teach him about bite inhibition, among other things.

There is no doubt that your puppy is going to bite your hands. It is perfectly normal. The secret is to get him not to bite down so hard. He will eventually stop it, for the most part. My dog, Willie, still takes my hand in his mouth sometimes, and holds it, ever so gently (and I think it is totally disarming -- but NOT in the literal sense)! ;D


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

polkan said:


> Hi threefsh and laurita, and thanks for your comments.
> 
> I'm very curious if you have ever noticed any stronger/more motivated responses, even if slightly so, when the games you played mimicked or imitated (however remotely) anything that channels the hunting instincts (like carrying objects, or perhaps training them to "find" things)?
> 
> ...


Riley *always* calms down when we either put her to work or engage her mind. She has become a pro at fetching toys and its a good way to focus her energy. We also have a kong that we fill with peanut butter that she will work at until she has every last bit of PB licked/gnawed out. Her favorite new game is hunting her food. Most people say to hide food around the house, but I have found that simply tossing a few pieces at a time in the air can keep her entertained indefinitely. She does an adorable little point for each piece of food tossed and then pounces on it. It's hysterical and she loves the challenge of finding where the pieces have dropped using sight/sound/smell. She also prefers to carry something in her mouth while she's on a walk. It has to be *just* big enough to fit in her mouth. If it is too large, she will drop it and lose interest. My mom took her on a walk the other day and she carried a tiny stuffed bear (actually one of the chihuahua toys) for 75% of the walk before she dropped it and grabbed something else.

We have given her a deer antler for teething and she loves it. I can already see some adult teeth coming in and I think the antler is hard enough to help loosen the baby teeth.


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## SteelCityDozer (Aug 25, 2011)

It's been awhile since the Puppy mouthing stage but I can tell you at 16 mos Dozer still loves to put our hands and arms in his mouth when we're playing. And when dogs play together their mouths are all over each other. But he doesn't bite us. And if it gets too rough I yelp more than it actually hurts just so he knows or we tell him to settle and it's over. My boyf loves letting Dozer play with his hands, nipping at them, and never has issues. But his man skin is tougher than mine. 

As far as games that imitate hunting, I try to play "find" with him around the house and yard when I remember. Once he finds the toy, we play with it for a minute before hiding it again. It makes his time with the toy a lot more exciting. We've even started hide and seek so he has to find me to play. It makes staying inside fun for all instead of being out in the cold.


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## laurita (Jun 12, 2011)

polkan said:


> I'm very curious if you have ever noticed any stronger/more motivated responses, even if slightly so, when the games you played mimicked or imitated (however remotely) anything that channels the hunting instincts (like carrying objects, or perhaps training them to "find" things)?


Polkan- absolutely. With hiding objects or putting a few drops of duck scent leading to a hidden object outside, mine (and I suspect most vizslas) just get into their instinctual mode and know to find it. A friend of mine asked how he can know what's happening and that he's supposed to look for it, and I don't know the answer, but I just put the object in front of his face, tell him to stay or wait, leave and hide it and then excitedly say, "go find it!" they are so determined, too! Their noses are one of their gifts and should be put to use. If nothing else, it's so incredible to watch. Try things like having your dog sniff your keys and then asking him/her to find them. It's truly amazing.


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## moonbowsmommy (Dec 14, 2011)

threefsh said:


> We have practiced letting Riley mouth our hands since she was a pup. As a result, I can put my hand fully in her mouth and she VERY gently mouths me until I remove my hand. We have trained her not to grab for our hands. We let her mouth on *our* terms, and I think that is the key. We also hold kong toys and other chew toys for her while she gnaws on them. I agree that it is important to allow mouthing, but only if it is done correctly.



My question is, If you let your puppy bite on your hands and then you react with a sound or hand signal or something, what if he doesn't let go? My puppy mouths at things and then doesn't let go. I don't want to physically take it out of his mouth or pull it away so what are the actual steps in training your taking to achieve the gentle mouth?


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

moonbowsmommy said:


> My question is, If you let your puppy bite on your hands and then you react with a sound or hand signal or something, what if he doesn't let go? My puppy mouths at things and then doesn't let go. I don't want to physically take it out of his mouth or pull it away so what are the actual steps in training your taking to achieve the gentle mouth?


If you do a loud enough "OW!" squeal and turn away, the pup will ALWAYS let go of your hand. Now, letting go of an *object* is an entirely different matter. For that, you will need to train "drop it", which is a super simple process. Give your dog a toy to play with and wait until he's really into it and chewing very hard on the object. Tell him "drop it" and hold a treat RIGHT in front of his nose (literally touching his nose so he can smell it). He will immediately drop the toy for the treat. Take the toy first, then give him the treat and say "good drop it!". If you repeat this a couple of times, he will start dropping the toy before you even hold the treat up to his nose. We also practiced using the toy as a "treat" for Riley. We would say "drop it" in the middle of a game of tug-o-war and completely freeze (no tugging) until she let go of the toy. As soon as she let go, we would say "good drop it!" and immediately continue the tug game.


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## anne_wilcrest (Oct 20, 2011)

@laurita I love the idea of sending notes via pup! what a fantastic idea; for them to get to see someone's face light up when they read the note a puppy just delivered… like a flower delivery person's job… for a pup!

@moonbowsmommy
i read a great description of the difference between bite inhibition and bite prohibition somewhere on this forum (I believe it was in this thread)
http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,2857.msg18968.html#msg18968
and it convinced me to adjust the way I was training to biting very gently instead of not biting at all - and has been a great improvement in over excited play biting!
(the ian dunbar you tube link in that thread is also great)


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

polkan said:


> Hi threefsh and laurita, and thanks for your comments.
> 
> I'm very curious if you have ever noticed any stronger/more motivated responses, even if slightly so, when the games you played mimicked or imitated (however remotely) anything that channels the hunting instincts (like carrying objects, or perhaps training them to "find" things)?
> 
> ...


What is it with you and your belief that Vizslas are crazy?????? They are not crazy. No more than ANY high drive hunting dog. FFS, my English Cocker Spaniels were way more excitable than any of the Vizslas I know or have. Why do you continue with this thinking when it is far from accurate?


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Ozkar - the comment you're being so _*reactive*_ to predates our infamous discussion. 

Multiple people told me they thought Vizslas were "crazy", so I trying to figure out why that perception exists. You can deny this perception exists, but many people on _this forum_ made the same exact comment - that some people stay away from Vizslas because of the perception they're hyper dogs.

I think I formed the opinion why this perception exists. And I have moved on. 

In fact, I'm preparing to welcome for my very own vizsla soon.

Thanks!


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## Suliko (Sep 17, 2011)

My Sophie went through the biting/chewing stage. She still sometimes takes peoples' hands in her mouth and holds them. Those who know this gesture understand that it's acceptance. Those who don't understand, say that she bites...which is far from truth. She also uses her mouth a lot during play with us or other dogs. I see it as a completely normal behavior. 



polkan said:


> Multiple people told me they thought Vizslas were "crazy"


Mostly people who do not own a Vizsla THINK that way. An example is my sister. She calls my Sophie "crazy". I personally have never heard of a V. owner call their V. "crazy". I would like to hear a definition of "crazy" from those people who THINK so.


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Suliko: yes, but also people who get a V for the wrong reasons, from questionable breeding and/or don't do their homework on training/handling before they bring a puppy home. 

I don't know if American Vizslas tend to me either m-types or c-types, but it wouldn't (and, frankly, shouldn't) matter to an owner who has the awareness and commits to training plan that's based on personality type. 

I've been lucky to be able to spend several months with two Hungarian-born Vizslas and their petite French owner in her late 50s. They could knock her off her feet with a tail swipe and she cannot run or provide a 2 hour daily run in the woods, so she simply takes them to a park for 45 minutes every morning. 

And these are the two most amazing Vizslas I have ever seen. They are more well-mannered than many humans; happy, well-adjusted and able to calm down in seconds. They are athletic, fast, graceful and beautiful - truly stunning dogs. Nothing like the stereotype!

Watching people watch these dogs, then come over to talk and say with the expression of indescribable surprise and amazement on their faces "But I've always thought Vizslas are hyper dogs" is truly priceless.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

polkan said:


> Ozkar - the comment you're being so _*reactive*_ to predates our infamous discussion.
> 
> Multiple people told me they thought Vizslas were "crazy", so I trying to figure out why that perception exists. You can deny this perception exists, but many people on _this forum_ made the same exact comment - that some people stay away from Vizslas because of the perception they're hyper dogs.
> 
> ...


OK, then perhaps those comments come from ignorant people. The term ignorant meaning lacking knowledge, not a derogatory term that it has become. They are also people who have never experienced a Border Collie, A Kelpie or a Cocker Spaniel as all these dogs are just as high energy or as you term it, "Crazy", as a Vizsla. 

Allow me to state this one more time, a Vizsla is no more "Crazy" than any other high drive dog. Go and buy one and have it for a few years and then come tell me they are "Crazy". It is not the case. 

As for being reactive, yeah I am. Just like when anyone else posts BS in here, I will happily correct it, so that anyone reading can have a balanced perspective and a modicum of truth.


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