# Do you hunt/train with an e collar? Yes or no



## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

I wanted to ask you guys if you hunt or train with an e collar? Kauzy is the first dog I've had that I trained with an e collar and I can honestly say that i am a believer. Though he doesn't really need it much anymore for obedience, it has been great to be able to quietly communicate with my dog from a couple hundred meters out while in the bush (as Ozkar would say). I use the beep feature religiously when out in the bush and have trained him that one beep is to listen to me, two beeps to stop and be dead quiet, 3 beeps to flush or chase , and 4 beeps to respond with a bark. 

Do any of you use them?


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

Nitro runs with 3 collars. His security collar, a belled collar and an e-collar. I only use the e-collar for the occasional reminder and to locate him when I can't find the silent bell.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Mine have on ecollars anytime were out for a run, train or hunt. I would rather have the collar on and not need it, than have a situation occur and not be able to correct it.


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

Mine always wear a garmin GPS and an ecollar when the are out running. This way I know I can always find em and correct them. Honestly I really don't touch the ecollar much. But it's more to be safe than sorry. 

Joe


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

My two have turned into a focused hunting team within the last few weeks. While this is great for hunting, I'm worried about losing control if they both decide to take off after something. I'm thinking of investing in some training collars just for emergency situations (coyotes, cattle, etc.). Sorry to hijack the thread, but what e-collars do you use/recommend?


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## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

Not a hijack so don't worry. I started off with a sportdog SD 400, which is an excellent close work collar. In open fields you get close to 400 yard range. I recently upgraded to the sportdog SD 800 cause in the deep woods the sd400 was only good for about 200 yards. I get about 500-600 yards coverage in the woods with the SD 800


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## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

One of the nice things about the sportdog system is the you can add/link up to 4 collars to 1 handheld. They are also very waterproof


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Tritronics is the collar I use on mine. I did have TT sport basic transmitter but then went with the Pro 500 and like it better. I gave my SD collar away.


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

Most of the pros like Tritronics. I use a Dogtra two dog system which I really like. Shock/beeper/locater but this was acquired before GPS units, which I'm still undecided on.


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

We tried one and it didn't work well for us unfortunately. We were hoping to use it for his off leash trail runs, worrying that if he caught sight of a bird he would take off. When we tried using the E collar, he would either cry and lie down, or run faster away from us. Not the reaction we were looking for.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Dogs have to be ecollar conditioned. You don't just slap the collar on and use it. That would be like putting a leash on a dog for the first time and expecting him to heel.


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

We tried using it in the house with the tone button and with level 1 correction, and we tried it outside. i guess it is possible that we did not condition him correctly but we had instruction and help with it from people who use them, and we did not have success. Miles is also highly sensitive, we potty trained him in one shot by just ignoring him while we cleaned it up and that devastated him and he never did it again.


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

TexasRed said:


> Dogs have to be ecollar conditioned. You don't just slap the collar on and use it. That would be like putting a leash on a dog for the first time and expecting him to heel.


Riley has only had 1 experience with an e-collar from rattlesnake aversion. I was so worried about my sweet, soft (I thought) girl until they showed her the baby rattlesnake and had to go up to level *7* to get her to leave the darn thing alone. 

Is there any good reading online for how to condition with an e-collar?


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

I use tri-tronics pro 100 G3 Exp. it is good for a mile range and can turn on and off a beeper collar. I only use the continuous stimulation so i bought this one as it has 18 levels of continuous stimulation. there is a really new collar out that combines an Ecollar and a garmin GPS, since Garmin now owns Tri-tronics. I think this is called the alpha. this is great for hunters only as you couldn't use it in a field trial( you may use an approved by the AKC or American Field tracking device, but not an e-collar. That is why my dogs wear an ecollar and a garmin gps. you can combine the two systems really to fit on one collar if you like.

An e-collar in the wrong hands is like a weapon to a dog. first off, it is very important for the dog to know the command you are going to use excellently before you begin to overlay the e-collar to it. Let use the "come" command. Once your dog knows this command perfectly you can then begin to teach it with an ecollar. what you do next is find the very lowest stimulation for your dog. How you do this is you set it at it lowest setting press the continuous stim button. you are looking for the slightest expression change or mild tic from your dog. If you do not see anything go to the next lowest setting on the collar and continue until you get that response(again a mild look, turn of head of your dog) This is your dogs base setting. Please do keep in mind you are using electricity and a dog wet or a dog swimming in water will feel the intensity even greater than a dry dog. I would recommend every owner shock themselves at their dogs base setting to experience it. Just stick the prongs in your palm, dont be a wuss your gonna do this to your best friend.
Once the base setting is set you take your dog to a quiet area in the house with no distractions just like the first time you taught a command. you have the dog move away from you and give the "come" command while you hold continuous stimulation of your ecollar and keep calling the dog to come. Once he comes to your side you release the stimulation. Every collar should come with a continuous stimulation(red button) up to 8 seconds with tri-tronics and an intermittent stimulation(black button). What you are effectively doing is teaching the dog to turn off the stimulation by coming to you. if obviously he doesn't respond you and he didn't come. You didn't train come well enough and your dog knows you are a push over and you will need to slightly increase the stimulation to get him to comply. Now do this several times as soon as you say "come" the dog will be flying to get to you without the stimulation. Next do this in the backyard and other places. this is called overlaying the command with an ecollar. If you like you can do the same with a whistle and a command just be consistant with the toots or sound of the whistle for the command.
This is a very effective way of getting your pal to comply while off lease. the first rule of training a dog is never give a command you are not in a position to enforce. with an ecollar you have a very long invisible leash when and if necessary.


here is a link to Tri-tronics videos http://www.tritronics.com/content/dog-training-information/videos/

Joe


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## SteelCityDozer (Aug 25, 2011)

We don't do any serious training for competitions or anything but I do have tri tronics ecollar for off led time in open areas just in case. But happy to say the very last time I didn't even need it a Dozer stopped chasing the deer in his own and came back. I did also teach using the tone and it works 99% of the time with no need for a shock. And yes we did shock ourselves on several levels. penny is only 6 mos old but I'm thinking of getting hers for Xmas. My remote is food for 3 collars and that's one of the main reasons I got it along with having momentary, continuous and tone functions oh and bec it's waterproof so good in the river and lakes. If you visit gundogsupply.com you can research several collars and read user reviews.


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

As others have said E coller works great when properly used.
SD 1825 is what I use beep, continuse stim, momentary, 1 mile range. 
I use the beep first to get his atention, then command. Non compliance is the momentary stim. 

Something to be aware of with the tone/beep.
Recently my smoke detector had run low on battery and the every 5 min beep was going off. My dog was absolutely paralyzed with feer, shaking hiding under the bed he almost jumped into the shower with me. I quickly relized that the beep had been going all night and that was the reason for his fear. So be aware of this kind of reaction to beeps and tones.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I use an Oz-collar. They are not easy to get hold of. It took me 40 years to get hold of my Oz-collar. But it works a treat and is dead reliable. It needs no battery's and does not require any charging. It is powered by love, patience, understanding, repetition and consistency. I love how well it works......


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

I never quite understand the need to put the fear of god into a dog with an e-collar, when as Ozkar says some of us manage the old fashion way with treats, love, affection and patience. My Vizsla is so well trained and I have never had to zap him - he would be so upset with me and not understand what he had done wrong if I did.


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## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

For Kauzy the e collar does not put the fear of god in him, he actually gets really happy and excited when I get the collar out cause he knows its hunting/adventure time. And the "zap" is no more intense than getting shocked by static electricity (I.e. rub your feet on the carpet and touch the door knob). When you have a strong willed, hard headed dog (a lot of V's) the momentary stimulus is just enough to get their head back in the game, it helps him regain focus when he gets into chase mode. I also found that using treats had a much more negative impact on our training as he would start begging and performing for food all the time. For positive reinforcement, I use his favorite toy and affection with great success. Obviously, each person has his own methods. I never have to "zap" him anymore as i only have to use the beep feature. It is very nice to be able to give my pup a command from 1/2 a mile away without having to blow a whistle/shout and spoil a hunt. I have trained dogs both with and without the e collar and find a slight edge in reinforcement with the e collar. As stated in other posts, your dog has to be well trained on basic commands before using the collar. It is designed to help reinforce stubborn dogs


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

zigzag said:


> As others have said E coller works great when properly used.
> SD 1825 is what I use beep, continuse stim, momentary, 1 mile range.
> I use the beep first to get his atention, then command. Non compliance is the momentary stim.
> 
> ...


Take this for what it is worth, and not an insult.
I am not a dog trainer, just sharing info that I came across in my research on e-collars.

You have trained your dog that after he hears a beep, he has to do something or he will get zapped.
IMO he is paralyzed with fear because he doesn't know what to do to avoid the zap as he doesn't get a command after the smoke alarm beep.

The SportDog website/manual I read described using the tone as a command only, and never as a warning, because the dog can become fearful of any beep in day to day life. Microwaves, cars, tv's, you want no reaction or a positive reaction. These dogs are so bloody fearful at times, you really have to be careful with them.
I understand that you're not "warning" him, but getting his attention. He probably doesn't get all that, just the simple "beep - command - buzzzzzz"



I use the beep for 1 thing. Recall.
You could try retraining what the beep means.

I did it at home first. 
-Walk to any room away from the dog. Bring treats. Good ones! 
-Yell out: "Come" or "Here" etc... and as soon as you here him or see him move, you hold down the beeper until he reaches you. 
-Once he gets there, tasty treat.

Repeat until it is looking very reliable, then just hold the beep for the second or two it takes for him to come towards you. You can stop beeping then and wait for him to arrive for another treat.

Now, if he is fearful of the beep right off the bat, and won't move, you might have to take a step backwards and simply beep while petting him and letting him sniff/eat a treat. 

This method has worked amazingly well for us. When people ask what that second collar is for, I explain the beep and show them how great my dog is without saying a word to her, and without any shock at all. Just press the tone button and watch her run back!

The shock is for bad behaviour.
Recall is all about the dog coming back to a safe and wonderful person. You can't ever recall to punish, or punish when they don't listen. If they don't listen, more recall training. 
In an emergency situation, I would shock to enforce mine not listening, but would not make a habit of it.


I hope my advice helps.
-Dennis


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## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

Its important to set the absolute lowest baseline of stimulation on the e collar. I can honestly say that Kauzy has NEVER shown fear, confusion, or discontent with the use of the collar. It has only been a very positive experience for both of us. It isn't designed to be a punishment, and if used that way it can have very negative effects. It is a reinforcement tool


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## SteelCityDozer (Aug 25, 2011)

At least in my case I don't even consider it a "shock". It's the same as muscle stim from the chiropractor. Honestly I can't be that bad if the highest setting wont break his concentration in certain things. (And please remember I already said that we used it on ourselves first).


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

Mischa: I know of the warnings when training with the beep. I conditioned the dog to the collar, and he loves when I bring it out. I use it so infrequently If I broke down the cost of the collar and the times I used it. It would seem like a pointless investment. But I like the security i have with it. The smoke alram beep was a extreme circumstance for us. I dont believe random beeps or tones have any effect on him under normal circumstances. I do agree with the training manual and collar conditioning is so important, I think a dog could be seriously effected by the tone/beep if not trained properly. That is why I shared our experince.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

No, never used one.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

zigzag said:


> Mischa: I know of the warnings when training with the beep. I conditioned the dog to the collar, and he loves when I bring it out. I use it so infrequently If I broke down the cost of the collar and the times I used it. It would seem like a pointless investment. But I like the security i have with it. The smoke alram beep was a extreme circumstance for us. I dont believe random beeps or tones have any effect on him under normal circumstances. I do agree with the training manual and collar conditioning is so important, I think a dog could be seriously effected by the tone/beep if not trained properly. That is why I shared our experince.


I agree, good info for others nonetheless.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

I start out with Voice - the whistle - at 10mo or a year introduce the E - V's are a PATTERN language breed - you build on what works for your pup - all are different - Yes they do need to be corrected - but it has to be light and consistent - feelings easily hurt & if not careful - a long battle back to basics - there are no easy solutions to end up with a great hunting GUNDOG - This forum is great ! - but we do not live with your PUP !


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

dmak said:


> For Kauzy the e collar does not put the fear of god in him, he actually gets really happy and excited when I get the collar out cause he knows its hunting/adventure time. When you have a strong willed, hard headed dog (a lot of V's) the momentary stimulus is just enough to get their head back in the game, it helps him regain focus when he gets into chase mode. I also found that using treats had a much more negative impact on our training as he would start begging and performing for food all the time. It is very nice to be able to give my pup a command from 1/2 a mile away without having to blow a whistle/shout and spoil a hunt.As stated in other posts, your dog has to be well trained on basic commands before using the collar. It is designed to help reinforce stubborn dogs


Well said. 



hotmischief said:


> I never quite understand the need to put the fear of god into a dog with an e-collar


Using an ecollar *PROPERLY* is not putting the fear of god into your dog, it is a training aid similar to a leash, which certainly can be misused. While i agree V's can be soft dogs, this doesn't mean they are so soft we cannot train them with modern technology. A hard charging dog who is so focused on his birds will easily handle an ecollar to refocus them from a distance. A good trainer knows when the correction is necessary, its all in the timing. If you miss the correct time, its best to not do the correction. A hunting dog works for the birds and the retrieve is its reward.

Joe


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

harrigab said:


> No, never used one.


You going to try an Oz-collar next week when you take Ruby hunting Harri???????  

Maybe I'm just living in the past Harrigab and should let technology catch up with my dog training ways..................... can you get an iphone or Android app for your electronic collars????  Maybe they come with a camera attachment, so I can just sit in the van till the dogs have located a deer and then when I see it on the LCD monitor, I can put down my beer, hop on the quad bike following the GPS locating device to the very square meter I need to be standing in to shoot the Deer. Yeah that sounds like fun. I can get fat too then, just like the rest of the Australian population............ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

Ozkar said:


> harrigab said:
> 
> 
> > No, never used one.
> ...


No, just my whistle and a bag of marmite twiglets , she'll be on her lead most of the time with it being a driven shoot anyway. Hopefully she may get a chance at a bit of picking up too.


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

Ozkar said:


> harrigab said:
> 
> 
> > No, never used one.
> ...


Actually pretty funny! Not knowing you well enough, should i consider you the forum class clown?


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Harri.... I can't wait to see the pics of Ruby's face mate. She will be beaming S--T eating grins all day !!! 

JCbuch, Class clown hey........yeah........that's pretty funny too!!! Not knowing you should I consider you the same??? ;D ;D

Nah mate, no class clown, just a dry Aussie who enjoys taking the piss!(That's making a joke for you Europeans, having a lend for you poms and taking the mickey for you mericans....)  99.9999999% of what I say is tongue in cheek............................................ the rest is just bullshit!!!!  

Actually lots of folk in here type that way too.... best you get used to it!!


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

Ozkar said:


> Harri.... I can't wait to see the pics of Ruby's face mate. She will be beaming S--T eating grins all day !!!
> 
> JCbuch, Class clown hey........yeah........that's pretty funny too!!! Not knowing you should I consider you the same??? ;D ;D
> 
> ...


Thanks for the lesson MATE, this technology as u know has got me all jammed up. Ill try and give less information and more jokes to fit in as u say. Hmm maybe that will get my post count up after 3 years of membership ;D


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

calm it down folks , yep Crusty errr Oz ;D I'll certainly get some pics up


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## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

Nope... never use one.
I wonder if many people in the uk take their gun dog beating or picking up with an e-collar on??? 
I work my bitch on two shoots and have never yet seen an e-collar in the field.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

Vida said:


> Nope... never use one.
> I wonder if many people in the uk take their gun dog beating or picking up with an e-collar on???
> I work my bitch on two shoots and have never yet seen an e-collar in the field.


they're illegal in Wales I believe Vida.


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

The only reason I'd have the collars are are for safety.

1. A cattle rancher has the right to shoot your dog, no questions asked, for harassing/chasing their cattle. If an e-collar will prevent my pups from being shot, I'll gladly go that route.

2. Coyotes will work in packs to lure dogs into an ambush. I'd rather my pups get a "zap" than be ripped to pieces and eaten alive by coyotes.

3. A spooked horse can kick and kill a dog that is harassing it. I will also use an e-collar, if necessary to prevent this.

I work extensively on their recall training using treats, the whistle, etc. When there is only 1 dog, I can get a perfect recall. The 2 have now formed what I like to call a "hunting pack" and when they get focused on something, all recall goes out the window. I may never have to actually "zap" them, but I'd rather have that level of control if I NEED to, than risk their lives. I could put them both back on leash all the time, but that would mean walking them about 5 times a day and that's just not an option for us. ;D


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## Darcy1311 (May 27, 2012)

A work mate of mine in Yorkshire has a Great Dane it breaks out of the house chases down kills and drags back home deer. he now has an e- collar, the collar has probably saved the dogs life....I would imagine living where threefsh is with coyotes and ranchers wanting a piece of our beloved Vizsla's, then the collar works for them.on a personal note I don't have the need for one luckily, Darcy is pretty good on the whistle recall, altough when she was hunting squirrels the other day she would not recall to whistle or the 4 letter expletives that followed..I know what your going to say............get an e- collar..


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Whilst I don't agree with the use of e-collars in general, I do agree with threefsh that if it is the only way you can ensure the safety of your dog whilst over farm land then so be it.

When I had my first Gt Dane we had a house in the middle of Dartmoor, Devon where sheep, cattle and ponies used to grass the moors - no fencing. Shula was a very well trained dog but could not resist chasing the sheep. Like in the US, worrying livestock is a shootable offence here in the UK. My then trainer, an ex police dog handler sorted the problem by throwing a choke chain at her when she didn't return on recall. The chain did not hit her but the noise startled her and she returned to me very quickly. We did this twice and she never chased sheep again.

It would be very interesting to compare training methods of hunt dogs in the US and the UK. I went on my fist HPR training lesson last weekend. No e-collars and no treats and yet this trainer is one of the top trainers in Europe. None of the dogs on our local shoots use ecollars so why do hunters in the US find it so necessary? Obviously you all obtained a good result with your methods of training. So is there a right or wrong way - no I don't think so, but I think I would admire the skills of a trainer who trains a hunting dog with out an ecollar and without treats. Interesting!!!

Do police handlers in the US use them for training? They are not used by the police in the UK.


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