# Fear + Challenging Adolescence = Spilled Blood and Worry? (Lengthy)



## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

Hi, all. It's been quite awhile since we've been on the forum, and we hope all is well with you guys and your Vees.

I wish I was writing under better circumstances; however, my wife and I feel that if anyone could help us, your advice, as always, would be true and tried.

We (I, my wife, our 5yr old daughter, and our 3yr old son) own our much-beloved "Mountie," a 17mo-old healthy and insanely-energetic boy, who is every bit the high-powered hunting dog as his father (NFC MVSDC 1xCH FC) whilst being a great family pet who cuddles beneath the sheets and insists upon some form of human contact at all times he is outside his kennel.

To date, Mountie has been a great all-around dog. Yes, as a first-time V owner, I've certainly had my patience tested, and I'd be lying if I said that Vizslas are as easy as the Labs with which I'm accustomed. However, I've really enjoyed figuring out our Mountie, and we've tried our best to invest in his well-being. 

Our significant problems began ~3 months ago. For a halcyon period of time, he had obeyed my verbal commands (sit, stay, come, no, drop, whuuuuup (heel)). But, then he began to ignore me while off-leash... It was as though someone had flipped a switch nearly over-night. Mountie could no longer be trusted off-leash, as he readily galloped off our property (no longer paying any mind to my calls). He obtained local infamy for running upon the neighboring golf course during a mid-atlantic pro-am tourney, seizing a ball in play and burrowing it in a sand bunker -- and then squatting for a poop directly atop the green, all while ignoring my commands 100% and running to-and-fro among ~10 superintendent golf carts chasing him down.

As Mountie was the first dog I'd handled without using an e-collar, I began to introduce him to one of my Tri-Tronics collars Notwithstanding the most gentle of introductions and settings (I am extremely diligent and responsible in respect of introducing dogs to e-collars), Mountie reacted to his first "buzz" (barely palpable to my own wrist) as though Zeus had sent down a lightening bolt upon him. Over the ensuing week, he quickly regressed to refusing to leave the porch while wearing even a dummy collar, and he began to growl in earnest upon sight of the collar.

Simultaneously, he was becoming less and less like his normal self. Although he has always been food-motivated, he began to violate one of his earliest teachings -- and began jumping onto (not just "up," but literally onto) our kitchen island to engulf food (chinese, pizza, venison, even sushi) as well as knocking down our children to steal any food in their hands.

Too, although he's been housebroken, he began to **** his leg and mark things inside the house every day... Walls, the dining room table legs, my recliner, my wife's legs directly.

Now that summer has arrived in Virginia, we're now facing our greatest challenge with Mountie... Ticks this year appear especially prolific, and although Mountie is treated for fleas and ticks, he regularly gets bitten by ~5 ticks (Lonestar, Deer and Common Dog Ticks) each day. He pays them no mind, but as he regularly sleeps in our bed, we've taken to gently removing them with tweezers (making sure never to pinch him or pull out fur). 

Well, last month, as I was gently tweezing a tick from his belly, Mountie suddenly nipped harshly at me. I ignored his nip and continued to prod out the tick. Out of nowhere, Mountie whipped around and bit my wrist full force, and then slinked into the corner of the couch, growling. This was my first dog bite, and it was both extremely painful as well as surprising. The puncture wound to the belly of my wrist required two sutures.

Since that time, Mountie has continued both to act more aggressively generally (e.g., stealing our children's stuffed animals and then barking and snapping viciously when we attempt to take back the toys) as well as increasing his pee-marking (e.g., notwithstanding a long walk and multiple pees, Mountie, like clockwork, will re-enter the house and immediately proceed to **** his leg on a corner wall, then the sofa, then a subwoofer enclosure, and then a table leg). Having a dog urinate daily upon thousands and thousands of dollars worth of nice furniture is not something I've ever dealt with. He ignores verbal reprimands, no longer pays any heed to praise and would take off the arm of anyone who attempts to affix either an e-collar or a muzzle to him. Ditto re: the sight of tweezers.

Last evening marked the straw that might have broken the camel's back... After my wife and I soothed Mountie for 30 minutes with treats, he accepted a loose muzzle that we had purchased to allow us to remove ticks from him. As my wife coddled him on the couch, I gently picked off three ticks... I could tell he was growing increasingly fearful, despite the cooing and treats -- and he attempted to snap at me on tick #3.

As I tweezed tick #4, Mountie suddenly wrenched free of my wife, and in an instant bit my wrist/forearm. I've never encountered anything like this. His bite was so forceful that it went through a rubber basket muzzle and sunk his incisors into both sides of my wrist the depth of a QTip head. While I've broken bones and had plenty of injuries, I was shocked by the pain -- biting my tongue while blood dribbled onto our hardwood floors. Cliche' aside, the pics don't do justice.

My wife quickly snapped Mountie to his leash, all the while snarling and lunging deliriously, and managed to get him to an outdoor run to calm down. An hour later saw him peacefully napping between us on the sofa, the awesome Vizsla we've always known.

As I write this, I'm not certain what to do. Today, my arm is oozing and aches like heck; however, another visit to a general practitioner for a "dog bite" would trigger a statutorily-required investigation (if not quarantine) by local animal control. I'm not overly concerned re: my well-being; however, it goes without saying (and forgive me for being perfectly blunt) that in the event our Vizsla (or any animal) bit, even inadvertently, our young daughter or son, I would immediately dispatch him/it in the backyard, without question or hesitation. No one wants, of course, any such outcome... But humans come before animals, and I shudder to think we've possibly made a several-thousand-dollar mistake on this dog.

Has anyone encountered similar issues? Is this a fear issue? Should we neuter him? Return him to his breeder / get rid of him? Keep our children removed from him for safety, definitely? We're not interested in hiring a behaviorist at this point, as the $1,000+ would be better invested in our children's college funds.

We'd be immensely grateful for any advice. Thank you.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Call your vet Monday morning to schedule a full checkup that included tick borne illness, and check for thyroid levels. With two young kids in the house, I would say call your breeder right now if you haven't already. Talk to them openly on how best to handle the situation, and if they would be willing to take Mountie back to evaluate him, if no medical reasons are for his aggressive behavior.


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## tknafox2 (Apr 2, 2013)

I should hope there would be a medical answer to your problem, because, it just sounds to freaky to be normal.
My heart sure goes out to you and your family... you have a lot more than money invested in your buddy, and it sounds like you have
given his changed personality your best shot. 
We will pray there is an answer for you and Mountie, Very soon.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Mountain said:


> Hi, all. It's been quite awhile since we've been on the forum, and we hope all is well with you guys and your Vees.
> 
> I wish I was writing under better circumstances; however, my wife and I feel that if anyone could help us, your advice, as always, would be true and tried.
> 
> ...


The Blue is normal teen behavior, they push all boundaries at that time. 

The red is a big sign something has gone terribly wrong.

How I would normally handle a marking dog, can't be done with Mountie at this time.
He would probably turn on you.

Yes, I would keep the kids away from him. Right now he is aggressive, and you don't have control over him.
Its better safe than sorry at this point.

You can put a dab of dishwashing liquid on the tip of your finger, rub it on the tick and they will release. There is no need to tweeze them off.

I hope you cleaned the wounds out very well, puncher wounds have a way of becoming infected.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> Is this a fear issue? Should we neuter him? Return him to his breeder / get rid of him? Keep our children removed from him for safety, definitely? We're not interested in hiring a behaviorist at this point, as the $1,000+ would be better invested in our children's college funds


.Your children are at danger per your writing. A full medical check up is in order iMO.

I guess I do disagree with your no interest in hiring a behaviorist. I would have been talking to a behaviorists that understands continental hunting dogs and especially Vizslas a month ago when it first happened. 

There is a reason you do not see. 

The breeder needs to be involved and may know the person to evaluate your dog. Why is $1,000 too much? We spend that much on pet insurance a year for our two Vizslas. A well educated "dog person" should come to your house and help make the decision on Mounties future. Hope the information is that Mounte can be a well-adjusted family member, but maybe not. Has to be a very hard decision. 

Get the best answers from the best people as soon as possible. I wouldn't go this alone.

Good luck. TexasRed has excellent tips.

Rod aka RBD


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## Idntnw (Mar 21, 2014)

Such a drastic change makes me think: 
1) hormones
2) illness
I would recommend a full vet work up. Protect your children at all cost. Their psychological outlook of dogs could be marred for life if this behavior is let to continue.


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## Chaos911 (Oct 30, 2013)

I feel so badly for you all. We had a similar experience with a female standard poodle(13mos) when our children were babes. Terrifying. Our situation was stress on dog ( all of us) we had just moved and she got very nervous and bit our partners child who was not good with the dog but nonetheless I was irresponsible for leaving her around kids we didn't know. Movers were there oh my it was a In a blink of an eye it happened. Then she bit our 3 yr old daughters finger the next day. I was a wreck. She was the loveliest and smartest dog. Our vet and the breeder were great helping us. They both recommended immediate removal until things settled down. Our vet said he would love to have her and actually kept her , had no children. I wish I would of known a trainer but the stress at our house with toddler new baby new town, job prob was sensed by everyone. And I was terrified of another bite. Sooo sad but at the time it was the best I could do at the time safety and sanity first . Good luck and be kind to yourselves if you have to let him go permanently. Keep your children safe.


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## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

I want to thank you all for your advice and thoughts. We are trying to keep our emotions out of the matter; however, it's tough, as we genuinely love Mountie -- and, I, personally, need to keep in mind the best interests of the family as well as the best interests of Mountie. On one hand, we all (and especially the children) would be devastated if we had to say goodbye to Mountie; however, on the other hand, we'd be even more devastated if the children received a bite.

A full health checkup is definitely in order. We'll be doing that in the days ahead.

Hopefully, we can pinpoint a root cause and work through it.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I noticed you didn't mention if you contacted the breeder yet. 
You bought Mountie from a breeder that competes with their dogs at some of the highest levels. They also kennel and have professional trainers on staff. If you haven't contacted them yet, you are over looking a very valuable resource.
It is sometimes hard for owners to contact breeders, because they feel they have some how failed the pup. I will tell you good breeders want, and need to know how their pups are doing. They also want to help you with problems that can, and do arise.

I can't count how many times I have talked to my breeder over the years, I've lost count.
Doesn't matter if its good, bad, or ugly. Even if I've just hit a stumbling block on hunt training, he knows.


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

Mountain said:


> I want to thank you all for your advice and thoughts. We are trying to keep our emotions out of the matter; however, it's tough, as we genuinely love Mountie -- and, I, personally, need to keep in mind the best interests of the family as well as the best interests of Mountie. On one hand, we all (and especially the children) would be devastated if we had to say goodbye to Mountie; however, on the other hand, we'd be even more devastated if the children received a bite.
> 
> A full health checkup is definitely in order. We'll be doing that in the days ahead.
> 
> Hopefully, we can pinpoint a root cause and work through it.


I'm reading Jean Donaldson's "The Culture Clash" (the section that includes biting). A central point of hers is that the dog population is not divided into evil dogs that bite and those that would never bite. It is a continuous spectrum of biting-ness: most all dogs will bite, given the right circumstances. Just because a dog has bitten does not make it evil and need to be executed. A dog that has bitten can be managed and/or re-trained.

Please, please put the option of executing Mountie out of sight, for your own sake. 

And put away the tweezers and e-collar. Letting the ticks feed is better than subjecting Mountie to what must be terrifying for him.

Bob

BTW - I have been bitten by my own dog and have recently adopted a V that had bitten 2 children. I don't know what triggered his biting, but I watch him carefully and try to keep him out of unusual circumstances. But I don't worry about him, nor do I treat him as dangerous.


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## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

TxRed, you are a mind reader. No, we have not yet contacted the breeder. They are wonderful folks who are dedicated to producing wonderful Vizslas that will compete at pretty high levels... These pups are not just given away, as you know -- they are vested onto owners who swear to invest in making each dog into the best that the Vizsla can be. Personally, right now, I feel prominently that I've failed our dog... While I hope that an underlying hormone imbalance or even curable illness is to blame, I can't help to think that I somehow breached Mountie's trust in me (his principal handler outside the house) by introducing an e-collar to what might have simply been adolescent growing pains. I've worked with Labs and bird dogs for 20+ years; however, honestly, I've never had a dog recoil so viscerally to low-level tic corrections... Moreover, when I introduced the collar into training, I made sure to use 20' and 50' leads, so that he was acutely aware that the correction originated from me (as opposed to out of the heavens!). I just worry that, notwithstanding his increasing stubbornness, I have somehow irrevocably betrayed a trust bond that he and I had -- and perhaps I've aroused an instinctual fear response...

Ergo, you are right on the money -- I definitely feel as though I've failed the pup. However, I appreciate your advice, as we owe it to our good dog to contact our breeder, regardless of whether or not I feel like a failed handler.

Bob - thank you, as well for your advice. I definitely have no plans to execute my buddy! Although I'm an avid hunter, I could never conceive of having to put down a pet, absent positing a nightmare situation wherein one came upon a dog attacking a child. Your point re: "evil dogs" is a good one -- in my side business in the pet industry, I actually have made significant investments in lobbying against breed-specific legislature (which, e.g., has the effect in many U.S. jurisdictions of automatically classifying as a "dangerous dog" certain breeds regardless of individual disposition and owner responsibility (typically, Rotties, Pits, etc. - but, surprisingly, in some cases, even Dalmatians and Gldn Retrievers)). I wholeheartedly agree with you (and Donaldson) that EVERY dog will bite given particular circumstances... I honestly don't think even the most high-strung, Alpha-Dog Vizsla would intentionally bite on account of attempting to establish dominance. Rather, I think ANY Vee would bite on account of (i) a health issue or (ii) fear/anxiety.

We've talked at length today during "father's day" R&R at the local pool, and we are going to get to the bottom of this and do our very best to upright the apple cart. Now that we are plugged back in, we will keep everyone abreast of the situation.

Again, thank you 100X-over!


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

all great advice given above - remember this - to most dogs - children are just 2 legged pups - as posted before I do not trust my dog or anyother around children - unless they are under my complete control - the least that means is on lead !!!!!!! the other side - I train my grandchildren how 2 handel PIKE - takes alot of work - works out in the end !!!!!!!!


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## mlg1900 (Jun 12, 2013)

Mountain Man,

I just read this post. Was wondering if you have any updates on Mountie? Let us know how things are going!


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## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

Here's a long-overdue update on our Mountie... 

First, we just wanted to say THANK YOU for those of you who reached out during past months with concern for our Mountie.

By way of follow-up, I am so happy to report that Mountie is doing very well. In fact, he's a changed dog altogether following our decision to neuter him. I wasn't initially in favor of neutering; however, after discussions with vets and behaviorists, we became convinced that Mountie's aggression could partially be owing to having on our hands a very-high-testosterone adolescent... 

Well, within a month of neutering last August, Mountie's personality changed noticeably -- and has slowly evolved into a beautiful and loving disposition. While he's still 100% crazy Vizsla, the change is night and day -- and we have had ZERO issues with any aggression. He's happy; we're happy -- and the outcome has turned out to be fantastic. We're very thankful!

Here's our guy with his new "Brook Trout" collar (pic attached)


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

So glad for you and Mountie!! It was very distressing to hear about your problems with Mountie back in June, but such a relief to hear about him now. 

Bob


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