# Spooked by small children



## WireyV (Dec 15, 2012)

My 4 month old was doing great with socialisation as of a few weeks ago, tail wagging and happily approaching everyone she encountered from old people, people onbikes, and kids.

However last week at the park there were two 7 year olds trying to pat her and even just seeing them coming she freaked, crouched down, haunches up, and tried to run away from them.


This has been repeated several times this week when we've seen children down the street on a walk. I've tried to make her sit and let them pat her gently, even give her a treat but she is freaked the whole time, all low to the ground and trying to turn her head away from them.

Not sure how best to get her over this, we don't socialise with people with children often so it is more of an issue down the street or at the park, I just don't want her to nip at anyone in self defence if she feels like she is being threatened...(not that she has nipped anyone at all yet) I'm just preempting where this behaviour might go..


----------



## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

WireyV, I think you need to find some friendly neighbour hood kids. 

I have had a similar problem with my wirehaired boy. For some reason there are certain people (male and female) that he is nervous of. He backs away and won't approach even though they want to stroke him. I have also noticed that he hates anybody squatting down to his level, he obviously feels people should stand up. Somebody can be stroking him and if they kneel down he backs off and won't go near them.

My approach has been to ignore the behaviour, stand there and talk to the person and give them a treat to hold in their hand, his food drive takes over and gradually he will come forward. If your pup is food driven, I would try giving a dog friendly child (a kid that is confident around dogs) your pups favourite treat and let them hold the treat but continue to talk to you. Hopefully, after a while the pup will venture forward. I would put your dog on a leash so that she can't run off. Do not try and reassure by petting or feeding you dog before she approaches as this is reinforcing bad behaviour. However, when she creeps forward you could drop a treat on the floor, which is saying yes that is good behaviour.


----------



## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

Children are strange and scary. I think they must move in ways that dogs only around adults aren't used to. They aren't as steady on their feet, they often go streaking past, and some are just so incredibly excited about meeting dogs that they are unintentionally physically intimidating to dogs (getting into their space, their faces, etc.). They usually don't have great impulse control, so they'll just reach out and poke a dog. Some kids are weirder and scarier to dogs than others, and I'm not sure why. Maybe they smell funny, or did something with their body language that we haven't even picked up on.

All that said, yes, it's very important to socialize your dog with kids. Because some kids don't understand dogs, and they will stick their face into a dog's face. And sometimes that dog might react with fear if they've never been around children, and things can end very badly. 

One thing you might start doing is go for walks past playgrounds during recess or something. Maybe one with a fence? Start off far enough away that the kids don't come try to play with the dog. Walk around or sit there calmly. Maybe give treats once in a while. Move closer and closer as she stays happy and ok. Kids on playground are pretty hyper, so maybe don't let them interact right away. Enlist the help of neighborhood children, preferably those used to dogs. For a lot of kids, just getting to play with a puppy is incentive enough to help! Or, you know, five bucks. I'd start out by go for walks with them, with you handling the lead. Then slowly have them start holding the leash. Give her lots of time just around the children, without them actually touching her, at first. Have them start putting her collar and leash on. Have her do tricks for them. Use yummy treats for these things, obviously, so that she associates the children with lots of good things. And so on and so forth, gradually building to a significant amount of interaction with kids, using positive reinforcement and being careful not to move her too fast out of her comfort zone.

And while you might not actually interact with kids a lot, it would be a great idea to let some kids handle her. Pet her, play with her ears, her paws, and her tail. Sometimes kids don't know any better (and sometimes kids are just brats) and they'll pull on a tail or an ear, and that can hurt. Making sure your dog has good bite inhibition will help, and also getting your dog used to being touched and prodded by kids will also help. On that note, patting a dog's head can be pretty intimidating, especially if the hand is coming from the front. If kids want to pet your dog, have them come up to her from the side and pet her neck and back, or have them reach down and pet her chest, rather than reaching over her face to pet her head.

And as hotmischief said, do not coddle or try to comfort her when she reacts this way, as it reinforces the idea that she has something to be afraid of.


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Redrover, isn't there laws in the U.S. about loitering around school playgrounds. As a mid 40's guy, is have the cops on my door for doing that.......


----------



## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

RedRover has good advice. Public playgrounds could be a better setup than a school (if there is a concern). 

When Oso was a pup, I used to take him to the playground, not at a school, but at a local park. Set up a picnic blanket. He had water, I had a book and lots of treats. The whole point was socialization with kids. 

It's funny, Ozkar because even being a young woman in her twenties, I felt like I was baiting kids (well, I was, actually with cute puppy). At a public park, you should be fine though. Especially with a blanket, book and dog. We started Oso before any timidity developed, even before he was allowed to touch the ground. He was so tiny and cute. Now he intimidates the kids because he's big, but he really likes them! I pretty much just had the kids give him treats. If they were good with dogs, I'd teach them how to teach him to sit. 

I'd follow redrover's advice about a slow progression though.


----------



## maplevizsla (Oct 26, 2012)

Kids are scary to dogs for sure, especially if they haven't been raised around any (I see a total difference between Titan and Maya who were raised around children, than Brandy who dislikes children. She tolerates older children who are gentle and calm). Arms are flinging and poking and pulling, small stature rapidly running, screaming or shouting - if I was a puppy or dog, it would seem scary. 

Supervision and teaching children to be calm and gentle is key for a dog who is already leary. You received some wonderful advice from the previous posters - I agree with them.

When Titan was a young pup, we took him around the nighbourhood kids and did just that - let them walk him and play with him and interact - he adored it. My problem is the opposite now though- Titan loves screaming and boisterous children, he thinks he can be equally silly and tries to jump on the kids and lick them, or put his paws on their shoulders, or play tug with his leash (and kids are not strong enough to tug back!). But he loves them so much!


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Interesting how many misconceptions float about proper dog socialization. 

Meeting 100 people in XX days is just hearsay and quite honestly, confusing for the dog. Dogs are pack animals and there can only be one pack leader at a time. 

I have never done this and would not allow it. Proper socialization, for my dogs means extensive handling by me first, getting used to me touching, petting, moving, picking up his paws, holding his paws, moving the dog in every position, any time, sleep or awake. Taking stuff away, giving stuff. Raw bones don't hold any higher value than a stuffed toy. 


Doing this properly ensures the dog is comfortable to touch and only then I move out and let strangers pet, pull on his tail, pull on his ears. 
This way, I am 100% confident that my dogs are people friendly.
I have achieved all this without using a single treat/food reward.
Doesn't take long. 

Going out there and having kids bump into the dog and calling that socialization could be a recipe for disaster. 

/


----------



## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

We had a trainer spend two weeks with W for various basic training. After having spent a lot of time with him, he brought us to an intersection of two malls where people of all shapes and sizes would go back and forth. The trainer then put W right in the middle of where the people would walk and leave him there on a stay command, OFFLEASH! At about 3 to 4 months old!!! He would then step back from him about 10-20 feet and we would watch him. The little bugger would just stay right on his spot! People would pet him and he wouldn't budge! That being said, I support what datacan just said in the sense that you need to spend a lot of training time with him. Respect will be earned and he should follow your lead in most situations in a predictable manner. I am no expert in any regards but from what I've seen up until now, I am convinced that being a strong pack leader will enable your pup to predictably follow your lead in most situations.


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: Re: Spooked by small children*



datacan said:


> Interesting how many misconceptions float about proper dog socialization.
> 
> Meeting 100 people in XX days is just hearsay and quite honestly, confusing for the dog. Dogs are pack animals and there can only be one pack leader at a time.
> 
> ...


I've had this discussion a few times. I however am a firm believer in controlled exposure and hence disagree somewhat.

Not from books, not from videos but from experience, exposure to as many situations as possible, benefits the dog in assisting to make all these interactions and introductions familiar. 

The proviso is of course that they are controlled and that the dog is never forced, but rather slowly eased into it.

I can take my dogs anywhere and know they will handle the situation without fear. They have bee exposed to as many people and situations as has been physically possible during their few years with me.


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

OK, my reasoning is (because I had perhaps one of the most feared and misunderstood dogs before Sam), I have to know how the dog reacts to touch in an environment where all stimuli are under control. 
It doesn't take long and, since most puppies are not allowed outside to run free until second round of shots, it is enough to sort of set a benchmark. At that point I can predict more accurately the puppy's reaction. 
Remember, this is all about getting the puppy used to being handled, touched. 
Of course, I combine and allow family and willing friends to interact. 
But, the general public is shut out until second puppy shots and rabies vaccine are administered. 

I have to add that children are the worst and most unpredictable. They are small, move fast and almost always want the dog to chase them or be chased. 
I don't want to coach them, tell them what to do or how to behave because that is artificial and won't always go according to plan. 
I want them to behave like kids and approach the dog from weird angles, if they please, run away screaming, pull on the tail, ears. 

-----
Interesting thing happened when Sam was 7 months old. 
A small kid (five or six years old) on a bike and his mother walk toward us. The kid expresses interest in Sam, his mom agrees and even calls the dog. Sam is off the leash but, he knows not to approach without permission (sort of : )... In true Vizsla fashion, first walks slowly, then suddenly bolts toward the kid.... Kid is scared, screams loud, panicky mom tries to pick up her son and somehow the kids pants get hooked on the bike (of course). 
Needless to say, short pants came off the kid, Sam grabs the kid's pants and runs around them in circles. 
Mother screams " MAD DOG, MAD DOG, PLEASE HELP". 

/ I knew Sam was no danger to them but could not, in my wildest dreams predict the course of events. 

/


----------



## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

ok, Datacan that story is worst nightmare for dog owner (albeit a funny scene to an observer I would imagine - especially one that understands dog behavior).

The major window of socialization is before your pup is 12 weeks old, which makes it really tricky to socialize to a lot of different things. We actually did have hand sanitizer on our little blanket. I also carried Oso to the park. He fit in my purse at that time and he went everywhere with me (to banks, on walks, clothing stores, grocery stores). 

That being said, I agree with you that a pup should be confident with you first. Healthy pups w/o behavioral issues should at 8 weeks, 9 weeks old be playful and confident and already have no problem with you (or really others either). That is the reason to expose them now before fear issues kick in. We had a checklist which involved just spending time touching/rubbing all the different body parts. We were even told you are supposed to be able to pull the dog's tail because kids will do so. We did with praise when he didn't react. He was a little confused at first, but it didn't hurt and we did it on a regular basis. Now, he doesn't even shrug if kids do weird random things to him.

If a puppy is not ok with those things at that age it is a big warning sign, unfortunately. :-\ And it would signal that you probably need more specialized help/directions. If you have a regular well adjusted pup, then I think the advice is great. It made a big difference for Oso. Later, he did get spooked by certain things and I feel like his strong foundation helped in many ways. He is now scared of horses. He had only limited exposure when he was a pup, I went a couple times to the barn, but could have done a much better job. Now, we have an issue. 

As for socializing older dogs, it differs and I would agree with you 100% about progressing with care. The idea is to take advantage of developmental windows of socialization. Once past that window the pup may already have fears and need to progress differently.


----------



## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

Good thread! Glad to read that Miles isn't the only one scared of kids. We have been working hard on this issue. He barks at kids all the time, and then if we have them play with him, give treats, and throw his ball he warms up to them. He still barks on initial meeting, and we are hoping with enough positive experiences he will begin to associate them with playtime and treats.


----------



## Suliko (Sep 17, 2011)

Our oldest V. Sophie used to be frightened by children but over time with lots of training she grew out of it. Our one year-old Pacsi is a little weary around kids, too, but after a while being around them she feels comfortable. When my husband and I go away, we leave both of the girls with our friend who has two children. They are so happy to baby-sit them, and the dogs are happy to be there. 
Kids are very scary creatures and dogs need to be exposed a lot to them to become comfortable around them.


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Took a while to get used to Vizsla... things changed dramatically once he reached 9 months and fitted a shiny new e-collar... (learned a lot about e-collars, also).


----------



## WireyV (Dec 15, 2012)

We made some progress yesterday with a friends toddler (not exactly the age group she is scared of but we spent all afternoon at the park)

Video below:

http://rigbyjane.tumblr.com/post/40657359942/rigby-and-noah-play-fetch

While it is still school holidays I might get a friends 6 year old to come on walks with us a few times too.

Getting there! Her latest fear is grates... Despite being fine walking over them yesterday! Fun and games...!


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

bump... like the video, WireyV


----------

