# Recall bloody recall!!!!



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

So over the last few weeks Mac has decided that if he is off lead that I don't exist. He will check in a bit but it is really a bit of a "yep u are still about" type check in and then he sprints off. He has a natural range of about a half mile so the lack of recall now is a massive issue. He also really goes off on one if there is another dog. He doesn't come back for any food no matter how special or smelly. Even roast turkey doesn't work. I have worked him on a long line loads lately in hopes it would do the trick but nope!

It is weird as I always blow my whistle with him on lead and give him a tasty treat before letting him off lead. I do this to introduce the pattern of whistle = good treat. Lately though he spits the treat out when I do this. So I pick up the treat and don't let him go until he takes the treat. 

He is now 19 months and intact. Any ideas on what can get him back on track?


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Nothing 500 miles of on-leash at heal walks won't help with. He is at that age. With Bailey it was around that age that he did the same. 

One experiment I did was a heavy fog walk in the hills where we could not see each other more than 50 feet away. It was a great bonding day.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/12/faith-based-vizsla-training.html

Bailey wore a training collar every walk for a year during that time and even now I blow my whistle one toot to have him come back. Just to remind him who is in charge.

Good luck. Teenagers  

RBD


----------



## David (Jul 17, 2012)

My insurance is an e-caller, after the dog is familiar with it you wont need to actually use it. Although I always have it on when out and about just in case, better safe then sorry. The trick to using them is give the command, give it a second and then give the stimulation whether vibration or nick. 
I use the vibration for standard recalls and nick when the first command is not fallowed swiftly enough. Also when a dog finally does comes give some positive response even if it wasn't as prompt as you would have liked. If you punish a dog after a come command they'll be less likely to listen. 
After some time classical conditioning dictates that your command alone will work with out the fallow up stimuli.


----------



## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

We tried an E collar with Miles a few months ago and it didn't go well, but now that his hunting instinct is getting so strong, we are going to try it again. Today he went diving into a bush after a rabbit and took off and it was like my husband and I didn't exist, we couldn't break him from his focus.


----------



## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

Milesmom - the e collar can be an invaluable tool if conditioned and trained with properly. It takes a little time. I also noticed that it didn't really start working with Kauzy till he was around 12-14 monthes old

Born36 - Kauzy started doing the same thing around 18-20 monthes. The e collar was a great tool, but he was pretty hard headed. I had to become a bit more stern. I taught him "stay with me" (off leash version of heel, 15 foot proximity) and strongly enforced it. One day he was being stubborn so I started walking towards the car after calling him. He watched me until I got in the car and sprinted to me. I didn't immediately acknowledge him and began backing out of the parking space. He got a bit concerned that i was going to leave him and it instantly clicked with him and we haven't had an issue since. I'm pretty sure its an adolescent thing to push the boundaries. My advice is more intensive training, give him harder jobs to work for while you are walking him


----------



## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

Maybe we started too early. Tried it with him at about 8 months. He will be a year next month so now that he is older maybe he will respond better.


----------



## David (Jul 17, 2012)

I dont think age is that much of a factor, We started Mika at 3 months, the big thing is getting them to understand that what they feel is from you, not some stray earthquake that hopped up on their neck, or a random jolt of lightning. They just need to know its a sensation caused by you, like a check cord tug. Of course there's no magic here, if they haven't learned the meaning of a command the collar isn't going to teach them. There are a few youtube videos of how to train a dog onto an e-collar, I used them as an idea and tailored it to fit the way Mika learns.


----------



## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

David, that's interesting. I have had many trainers say a benefit of the e-collar is that they DON'T know it's coming from you so they don't associate you as the one causing it. They also told us not to start them before 1 year. I know every case and every dog is different.


----------



## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

> It is weird as I always blow my whistle with him on lead and give him a tasty treat before letting him off lead.


What I did was a little different - I use a whistle toot to recall and a different one to change the direction. Our practice was using the recall on walks and runs - for example, I would call her maybe once very 15 minutes, she would come back to get a treat and I would make sure to cast her off again to run more. I wanted to avoid giving her the impression that the recall means the fun is over so I tried as much as possible to make sure we do a good deal of recalls (or check-ins) before she is leashed. She's 9 months now and we started this at about 16 weeks.

On another note - I'm jealous of your dog's range. We ran in field trials full of German shorthair pointers and I was blown away by their speed and range. Your dog sounds like a potential Field Champion ;-)


----------



## David (Jul 17, 2012)

@flynnandlunasmom
Strange, I never heard that before, it just made sense that they should learn that the input was cause by you, the handler, giving them direction. They'll get the idea eventually anyhow simply by association, so I don't know that keeping them in the "dark" initially has any advantage besides surprising them when they first start out on the collar. I guess Mika is one of those cases? Mika is 6 months now, and I seldom need to actually use the control when shes off the lead, but its always on me just in case. 

One thing I notice with other owners and their dogs is that when they say come a lot of times they'll just stand there and wait till the dog finally comes over. Seems like a silly behavior from an alpha, just standing around waiting on a subordinate to come. Dogs being experts at body language know that your not in that much of a rush if you're just standing there. In the back yard when I issue a come command (no e-coller) I immediately turn and walk back to the house, and by the time I reach the back door Mika is right behind me. However if I issue the same command and just stand there she'll take her sweet time, most others will just continue to stand there and issue more come commands, which serves only to teach the dog that come is optional, or rather a suggestion not and order. This only works in a fenced yard for obvious safety reasons. 

I am always telling the family that it is important to remember to communicate authority through all mediums, appearance, tone, and behavior.


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I started useing ecollars on my dogs at different ages. My young pups always seemed to check in for reassurance. Even if its just a rub and a atta girl/boy before they are released to take back off again. I start using them when they decided there is no need to come in to me. The independent stage can be any where from 6 months to a year old.


----------



## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

It's interesting because Cooper has hit this stage at 9 months old while Riley is *just* starting to become fiercely independent at 15 months. Cooper knows when it's time to go home after a nice long hike and he stands about 10 yards from me just staring at me while I call him. I usually just shrug and walk the other direction and he comes running to me. One of the most important things I've learned is NEVER to chase them if they aren't listening to recall.

Are e-collars a terrible Xmas gift to give your pups?


----------



## adrino (Mar 31, 2012)

We've got a similar problem with Elza. She's almost 13 months old. Recently she would ignore the come command or wouldn't listen to the whistle. That used to be 99% now it's about 80%. Verbal recall sometimes good sometimes very bad. When she knows its the end of our walk and I'm calling her back to put the leash back on she will ignore me and start to walk away from me. If I try to go and get her she will run/walk away from me and I cannot catch her.  so 'the go and get the dog thing' just doesn't work with us. 
If she plays with another dog and I call her and carry on walking she will come straight away, mostly I don't even have to call her. Sometimes she will spot something far in the park and she will just take off and check it even though I call her/blow the whistle. Eventually she will come back and I have to sort of praise her to come back but that's just so annoying. Anything can happen to her when she does that and I can be too far to do something. If its food involved she will totally disobey me and ignore any command I give even if I have treats in my own hand. 
Recently I'm going out on walks without treats and just try to give her a good praise when she listens but then she knows I have nothing on me and chose to ignore when she pleases. 

We do training every day and praise her a lot but it seems there are days when everything goes out of the window! 

I refuse to use an e-collar but that's just me. This has come up on the forum many times and this thread it's not about that. 
I'm curious to see if anyone has a good training method or advice for born36 or us who struggle with this issue.


----------



## SteelCityDozer (Aug 25, 2011)

We started with an e collar for Dozer around one year. Now that Penny is 8 months I think she's ready. We tried an off leash walk a few weeks ago with me thinking she would just stay near Dozer. Wrong. Dozer stayed with us while she bolted around all over the place and kept leaving sight and not returning until we called. Which, yes, she did return when called and I treated her every time she checked in with us or came on command. But now I'm nervous about her taking off after something once out of sight so I need the ecollar for reassurance. I never have to nick Dozer anymore, except for poo eating, but we still like to have it for piece of mind.


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

threefsh, I'd much rather you give them repetition and consistency for christmas


----------



## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Ozkar said:


> threefsh, I'd much rather you give them repetition and consistency for christmas


I'm trying to decide between an e-collar and more deep cuts down Riley's back from barbed wire! The last cut she got was a terrible gash.  She smells quail on the other side of the fence and all recall goes to heck!


----------



## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

That's why we are re considering getting an e collar even though I didn't want one after our last experience with it. Today Miles came home today with scratches all over him and he is very interested in hunting wild animals and won't listen to me when he is fixated. The last thing I want it for him to get in a battle with a raccoon or possum.


----------



## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

> She smells quail on the other side of the fence and all recall goes to heck!


threefsh, What if you tried to Whoa, so she stops to "point" that quail and gives you the chance to come up to her? 

I'm assuming that you want her to feel good about bird smell, of course (if you're hunting or doing any kind of activity)...


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

At distance a whistle works for me better than any ecollar (I have three kind of ecloars). Depends on how wired he is but I if stim on low the dog will try and ignore and if I stim on high the dog will try and evade. 
Cranking up the dial does not work for me and can easily ruin the day. 

I use a fairly loud whistle, not only for the dog but more than that it keeps humans away from approaching the dog and try to steal it. Guy grabbed the dog last week and was well on his way. Took both collars off and released the dog when he heard the whistle.


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Mine are ecollar trained and wear them. I very seldom have to use them anymore. I can't even remember the last time June was nicked with the collar. Its been well over a year. What the training did was make the recall 99.9% effective no matter how I call them in. Its that .1% that makes me keep putting the collar on them.


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Datacan,
Glad to have you back. It's been awhile. Some great new additions to the discussions. The knowledge base is sure improving on HVF. 
http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/01/simon-vizsla-learning-about-training.html
RBD


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Thank you, Rod. Impossible to stay away too long. Dinner party tonight and dogs are not conversation topic except on HVF


----------

