# two trains of thought



## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

following a discussion on one of the shoots I go on with another HWV owner (Truly, Spider, Tango) we seem to have differing views on when to let your dogs range out. Personally I let Ruby range out and then if I want or need her to come in closer I'll give a pip on the whistle and either give a verbal or hand signal to come in a bit closer, Terry on the other hand prefers to keep T, S , T in close and then *try* to send them out, which they will do albeit reluctantly. Terry thinks his is the best way, I think mine's the best. Which one would you go for? a natural ranger or a dog that hunts on it's handler's instincts?


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## emilycn (Jul 30, 2013)

Depends on what you want your dog to do. I don't hunt with Lua, so when we go out hiking, her "job" is to go sniff and run and chase and have fun, so I prefer to have to call her back. 

If you're talking specifically while hunting, I don't have any experience, but I think even out working in the field I'd rather have Lua out doing stuff on her own than depending on me---she was born and bred to hunt; I was not.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

If I'm hunting upland, I go with your way of hunting.
I don't need the dogs in close, I need them out finding birds.
I also feel that always hacking a dog in, shortens their natural range.

Dove hunting with the birds feeding in a field, I need Cash close by, or they will fly before I can get a shot.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Har - Em - I go with the 2min Rule - unless on POINT - the pup looks 4 ME - sounds SIMPLE - but so hard 2 teach - in 2min - a good V is out of your TIME ZONE - LOL - I go with - IT is Always a Matter of TRUST !!!!!!! PIKE trusts Me - 2 put him in the ZONE !!!!!!!!!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

REM
I often find my dogs check on me from a distance, sometimes its just a stop and glance at me. If I change direction, they move to the front.
While these dogs fly across a field in search of birds, they always seem to know exactly where we are.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

trying a transatlantic translation here, nearest I can get is upland birding, moors, white grass etc (wooded pheasant always in close), on the upland birds, mainly partridge in our case, Ruby is given free range upto maybe 50 yards in front and possibly 150yds quartering either way. A lot depends on wind direction and where guns are positioned ( still haven't done that thread yet describing our driven shoots)


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Birds that are mostly ground dwellers, I let the dogs range out.
Migratory birds I keep them in close.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

a little vid, this is closing in on end of a "drive", left and right flanks usually start off about 1.5 miles away and work in to a centre point above the guns, you can see the birds in the air that Rubes is putting over the guns, now if she was in at heel those birds would've sat tight and not moved, granted ESS was in the mix too 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWZd5-PulCY&list=UURFi6tONhp7kqXuLVq5EkGQ


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

Here the terrain is so varied as are the species so it is determinant on both what I want to do. When hunting grouse in the woods I want the dog closer. When out in big grounds hunting chukar or pheasant I want the dog running big and working the terrain.

He generally knows what to do based on the terrain and the behaviour of the birds.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

organicthoughts said:


> Here the terrain is so varied as are the species so it is determinant on both what I want to do. Went hunting grouse in the woods I want the dog closer. When out in big grounds hunting chukar or pheasant I want the dog running big and working the terrain.
> 
> He generally knows what to do based on the terrain and the behaviour of the birds.


total opposite to what I want then E, on the grouse especially, I want her out out and then some more out, she's checking in at every fifty yard increments or so, but grouse moors over here are real tough (wanna use an expletive) ##kers....dogs have to be given free rein, us two leg drive humans have no chance, all we really have to do is work out where the guns are in their butts and pull and draw the dogs in to suit, you always hope for a cheek wind I've found, ie, a downwinder is always good for a dog to pick up scent, but not good when said bird takes flight and banks round so wind is up it's tail, either way, a dog that can't rely on it's own instinct is only a tool and not an asset, in my opinion.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Har - know the game - the terrain - the wind - but the most important thing is - KNOW how your PUP HUNTS -PIKE is the best blocking pup I've ever shot over - on a running bird - PIKE never chases - he moves 2V in front of the bird and pin - no clue how you can teach this - this is just the way PIKE hunts - as a owner our job is put the pup in fields that hold birds - you have 2 learn how 2 shoot - after all the hard work - if you do not put feathers in the pups mouth - shame on YOU !!!!!


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## tknafox2 (Apr 2, 2013)

This is an on going dispute in our family... Hubby believes dog should be reined in tight, as not to flush birds before he gets there. 
I on the other hand... I believe dog should go as far out as he is comfortable, which like most V's... is only until he misses me, and comes flying back.

When we walk (off leash) the trails by home ( not hunting... with a gun) I tell him "I can't see him", ( this is because there may be an old lady with two muts on retractable leads, around the corner that I can't see... but he can) If I can't see him... he is required to return.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I work the dogs on wild birds in the off season, with little direction from me.
I say little direction because, I only call them in to get a drink. A whistle to watch me for a change in direction. They mainly hear Hup, meaning I want you farther out. The wild birds teach them much more than I ever could, on hunting wild. If they take one extra step after scent, its a flush before they ever get to point. They adapt from one planted bird, to 20 that have been running in the tall grasses. They learn what areas quail like, and bypass barren ground. This exercise also lets me know when I can start trusting them, and shoot wild over them. As long as they are busting birds, and then chasing after the flush, I won't shoot over them. This exercise builds a good relationship of trust.
So when hunting season gets here, I don't worry about my dog busting birds to far out, and they can range to their hearts content.
Last week my son and I hunted Cash to get him ready for a panhandle hunt. 
He held steady with large coveys. What impressed me most is he would hold on point if the whole covey did not rise. Even if it was just one bird still in the bush, he stayed till it finally rose. 

This didn't happen by me wanting to control my dogs every step.
And I doubt I'm that good of a trainer. It happened because I give the dogs a chance to make mistakes, and learn from them on their own with no correction from me.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

A good pointing dog when hunting upland birds makes your job so much easier. I turn them loose, and just let them do their jobs, which is to find the birds. However far it may be. I've walked 500 yards to a find, and I've had them point close by. Whatever works. They have the noses, and the instinct. I have the gun. I let them do their job, they let me do mine. 

It's annoying as all get out to be in the field with someone who is constantly hacking at their dog. Not real fun actually.


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