# Leptospirosis vaccination -- opinions go here!



## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

Hi all,

I'm just curious as to everyone's opinions on the lepto vaccine. We're in the upper Midwest, and lepto is on the rise. A few clinics in the area list it as a required/highly recommended annual vaccination, though mine does not. I'm currently divided as to whether or not to vaccinate Jasper this year for lepto. It is not included in his DHPP/DAP/whatever alphabet soup vaccination your vet administers, although I know it can be included in the 5-way combo vaccines.

Some facts:

1) Lepto is a bacterial disease, caused by the Leptospira bacteria.
2) It is usually spread through infected urine, but can also pass through contaminated water or soil. This may occur through skin wounds or mucus membranes. Drinking from ponds or streams, walking through puddles, or swimming in infected water can result in disease.
3) It is common in tropical areas or areas with high amounts of rainfall. 
4) It is a "re-emerging" disease in the upper Midwest, including Minnesota.
5) Common carriers of the disease are wildlife, such as raccoons or skunks.
6) Lepto can cause liver and/or kidney failure.
7) Diagnosis of lepto can be tricky due to the common symptoms, and treatment expensive. The disease may be fatal, especially if the kidneys/liver fail.
8) There are more than 200 subtypes of the Leptospira bacterium that can infect dogs, but the newest vaccine only protects against the 4 most common. 
9) The disease may pass from infected pets to humans.

Now obviously, with any vaccine there are risks. The newest version of the lepto vaccine has fewer risks than the older ones, and the risks are more common in small dogs. As for risk factors, we are out in parks and woods on a regular basis. I try to keep him from drinking the water, but obviously he still does it. And there's no stopping him from walking in the water or swimming in it. 

Anyway, I'm currently divided on the issue. I could go either way. I will note that he's had the vaccine before and hasn't had any reactions to it. I'm just trying to decide if we should re-vaccinate this year or not. Curious as to who else gets the lepto vaccine? Is it included in your combo vaccine or do you get it separately?


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Not a big fan of yearly vaccines but, if there is overwhelming evidence then, I would go for it. My gut tells me to skip this one. We are in southern Ontario. 

The way I see it, anything that's hard to diagnose and difficult to treat but, there is a magic pill which will totally prevent it, should be hard to believe, also. 

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=CDN211EBK interesting read.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

My dogs used to get a shot coded "DHPL" (distemper, hepatitis, parvovirus, and leptospirosis) but not any more. I just checked my Vet records, and what Willie is now getting is a 3-year Rabies vaccination and a CDAP3 (3-year canine distemper, adenovirus, and parvovirus). These vaccinations are done every three years. I space them out by about three months in the year they are given. My Vet is a fairly conservative guy and he stays informed on what's best for our area. His prices are reasonable. I do trust him completely. He loves his patients, which is obvious. He has only missed two days of work in the last twenty years. Also, when my dogs become senior citizens, I don't vaccinate any more. Anyhow, that's just what I do, and everyone has to figure out what's right for their dog...


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

mswhipple - can i clarify this please. Your vet says that your dog only needs vaccinating every 3 years and then none after the age of about 9 - no more vaccination? 

What a great vet. It is becoming so apparent that we over vaccinate out dogs. So many dogs are getting allergies and cancer because of the damage over vaccination is doing to their immune system. 
One of my sister's dog's in Australia has awful allergies as a result of vaccination and it has been recommended that she is never vaccinated again, however she has to have a tetra(?) test to check she still has anti bodies for the diseases. She is 6 now and so far has always passed the tests.

When my Dane went to see a cancer specialist he recommended not vaccinating anymore - that at the age of 5 he had probably had enough vaccine for 5 life times!

It is such a shame that so many vets are ruled by money than by the health of the dogs.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

The vaccinations that Willie gets are specifically formulated for a 3-year duration. They are the ones my Vet uses. Not vaccinating after the age of 8 or 9 years was my decision, which my Vet supports. The tests you mentioned, hotmischief, are called titre tests (sometimes spelled "titer"), and I found out about them when I had a diabetic dog. The county wouldn't issue a dog license without proof of a current rabies vaccination OR titre test results which indicated that her immunity was still strong. Most people would just get the shot, because the titre test is actually more expensive than the shot. But I felt strongly about not vaccinating her any more, and taxing her immune system, since the diabetes was already presenting her with enough challenges. She lived a good, long life but needed two insulin injections every day. She was such a good sport about it all.  

_p.s. I do feel that vaccinations are important, but just overused. The diseases they protect against are very real and very awful. _


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

Probably the biggest name in this field is Ronald D Schultz who has done extensive research on vaccination.

I spent a lot of time looking at this when we got Lyra. I can't find the paper concerned now but one study he did showed that a single vaccination at 12 weeks was just as effective as multiple puppy vaccinations (without the additional risks).

Other research shows that vaccines usually last for many years and sometimes the dogs lifetime without re-innoculation. Unfortunately there is a difference between individual dogs and individual diseases so it is difficult to have a single rule. However, for the commonly vaccinated diseases, the vast majority of dogs remained immune for at least three years. In light of this he recommended that owners either had their dogs antibody titres checked or re-vaccinated every three years (I think after their 12 month vaccination if I remember correctly). This is the advice I will follow with Lyra as long as I don't have to re-vaccinate earlier to fulfill some third party requirement.

These studies have been done with standard vaccines at standard doses. I don't wish to question your vets integrity mswhipple but I don't see how the formulation of a vaccine would make any difference to the longevity of its effect. A vaccine either promotes an immune response or it doesn't. Once promoted, it is a function of the immune system as to how long it 'remembers' the challenge. Do you have the name of the vaccines given (they should be on your vaccine card)? I'm intrigued to learn more.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

I had a buddy who's Brit came down with it. The dog almost died, and alot of money was spent on it to ensure that it would survive. He lives in PA.

The cost of the vaccination is next to nothing in comparision.


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

The issue isn't one of cost, it is balancing the benefit from re-vaccination against the health risks associated with vaccination. 

It is important to note that the long term immunity discussed was primarily regarding the 'core' vaccines and may not apply to all diseases.

Some good links:
http://tollchester.tripod.com/vaccine.html - this has other links embedded in it.
http://www.news.wisc.edu/8413

With regards to a single vaccination at 12 weeks "Research by Dr. Ronald D. Schultz, shows that a vaccine received at or after 12 weeks of age provides immunity in over 95 percent of dogs. He also states that the less than 5 percent which did not have immunity would never get immunity regardless of how many vaccinations they received."


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Lyra, I don't want you to question my Vet's integrity, either; so just to set the record straight, I believe it was MY misinterpretation, not his. The fact remains that he vaccinates for these diseases every three years, or until I say "stop". 

I've never been given "vaccine cards", and I've had a dog (or dogs) since 1972. The latest receipts printed out for me at the Vet's office simply code the vaccines as: CRAB3 = Rabies Vaccine 3 year, and CDAP3 = DAP 3 year. I know you are absolutely right to say that a vaccine either promotes an immune response or it doesn't. My apologies.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

So, redrover... let us know what you decide to do!!


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## Kdwyer915 (Oct 23, 2012)

I live in New Jersey and we opted to get the vaccine just to be on the safe side


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## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

*Thanks for the thoughts and opinions so far--keep 'em coming!* I'm still quite divided on the issue. I read one article and think, "Let's not do it." Then I read another and think, "Well...maybe?" 

I would like to clear up some information, however.

One, lepto is caused by a bacteria. Thus, the vaccine is a bacterin (killed bacteria) vaccine. Bacterin vaccines do _not_ produce the same, lengthy immunity that viral vaccines produce. This is fairly well known in the vet med community, I think, but the difference is not always mentioned when talking about vaccination protocols and over-vaccination. Viral vaccines can be spaced out at the least 3 years, likely more (individual titers would be necessary for each individual dog to determine exactly how lengthy the immunity is). Bacterin vaccines tend to provide immunity less than or equal to about a year. 

I did contact my veterinarian. They use the Pfizer (now Zoetis, I guess?) Vanguard L4 vaccine, which contains killed cultures of Leptospira canicola, L. grippotyphosa, L. icterohaemorrhagiae, and L. pomona. I believe the old vaccines were only for L. canicola and L. icterohaemorrhagiae. The cases of vaccinated dogs developing lepto were frequently caused by L. grippotyphosa and L. pomona. It was also frequently the old, only 2-serovar lepto vaccines that caused reactions in dogs, while the newer vaccines seem to have the same side effect rate as any other vaccine. Side effects, as are often the case with vaccines, are more predominant in puppies and small dogs, like toy breeds. It is thought that other serovars of the bacteria can cause disease, though I believe preliminary studies are unclear as to the total effect.

There have been documented cases of lepto occurring in our area. According to the information I saw, the dogs were urban/suburban pets that likely were exposed to lepto in their own back yard.

Dogs can get lepto with or without the vaccine. Sometimes they have it and are subclinical--that is, they've been infected, but have no real symptoms and recover on their own. Others develop bad cases of the disease, and due to the vagueness of the symptoms (lethargy, reluctance to eat, fever, vomiting, etc.), the disease may go undiagnosed until the liver and kidneys have been compromised, which does lower the chances of good prognosis following treatment. If caught early, doxycycline is the drug of choice and can be very effective--but again, it must be caught early and the drug administered quickly. Due to both the vagueness of the symptoms and the fact that some people may erroneously believe that the vaccine will give their dog 100% protection against lepto, my guess is that some cases just go undiagnosed until too late. I mean, I know I frequently give my dog 24-to-48 hours if he seems under the weather, and that's definitely long enough for organs to become affected by the disease. Catching the disease late frequently involves hospital stays, fluid replacement therapy, etc. etc. (Obviously I would do whatever I could to save my dog--I'm just talking about general treatment here.)

Sorry for the long, rambling post. I'm still trying to collect all my thoughts here. On the one hand, the vaccine is not 100% effective, and I'm leery of over-vaccination. For example, in this neck of the woods, the Lyme vaccine is often recommended. But given the (usually) less severe disease course of Lyme in canines, good response to antibiotic treatment, the fact that I use tick preventatives, and the fact that I regularly check my dog for ticks and the disease is usually only passed after the tick has fed for a while (18 hours, I think) and becomes engorged, I personally think the risks outweigh the benefits for that vaccine. On the other hand, lepto is on the rise here, and our lifestyle results in a higher risk--walking in woods and fields, potential interactions with wildlife, swimming in ponds and marshes and rivers, rainy springs and falls, Jasper sneaking drinks out of puddles before I can catch him, etc. etc. Also, as stated before, he has never had a reaction to the lepto vaccine (or any other)--though I do recognize that this may not always be the case.

Blerg blerg blerg. Decisions decisions decisions. Why can't we all just be omniscient? 



PS: Did you know that cats do not seem to develop the disease, despite being inoculated with it? It's thought that cats may have developed an immunity to the bacteria, due to their close affinity with rodents!


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

mswhipple said:


> Lyra, I don't want you to question my Vet's integrity, either; so just to set the record straight, I believe it was MY misinterpretation, not his. The fact remains that he vaccinates for these diseases every three years, or until I say "stop".
> 
> I've never been given "vaccine cards", and I've had a dog (or dogs) since 1972. The latest receipts printed out for me at the Vet's office simply code the vaccines as: CRAB3 = Rabies Vaccine 3 year, and CDAP3 = DAP 3 year. I know you are absolutely right to say that a vaccine either promotes an immune response or it doesn't. My apologies.


Absolutely no reason to apologise  And as for your vet, he is obviously 'ahead of the pack' in recommending a three yearly schedule over the more common yearly schedule.

I looked further at '3 year' vaccines and they *do* exist but according to this link http://dogs.thefuntimesguide.com/2009/07/dog_rabies_vaccine.php they are exactly the same as one year vaccines but labeled differently to satisfy legal requirements, i.e. where you need to present proof of vaccination it shows that your vaccination is valid for three years (even though it is exactly the same as the vaccine that is a '1 year' vaccine!)

Sorry redrover I haven't been able to find anything specific to Lepto vaccination. You do raise the important issue of diseases changing so requiring further vaccination. Parvo virus is a good example. There are currently three strains and the original strain no longer exists. This is where research or a good vets advice is critical.


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## SteelCityDozer (Aug 25, 2011)

Our vet is also doing three year vaccines but the lepto is "needed" every year. Both out dogs had it initially but Penny hasn't come due again yet and Dozer's weak immune system caused the vet to recommend not revaccinating at this time. She did however state that if they get it, they usually die. That's all I know about it. If you have a fenced in yard and don't do a lot off leash, I wouldn't do it.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but it is really fascinating and is very relevant to my current dilemma.

Boris's insurance and booster vaccinations are due next month. I am not keen for him to have booster vaccines if he doesn't need them. However, up to date vaccinations are required by all insurance providers. 

I am arranging to have a titre test done to check his immunity and have asked the insurance company if they will accept the results of the titre test as proof of up to date vaccination.

Has anyone any experience of this problem?


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## iwant2fish (Aug 14, 2012)

Here is an interesting read on the subject http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/02/25/canine-leptospirosis.aspx?e_cid=20130225_PetsNL_art_1&utm_source=petnl&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20130225


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks for that interesting link iwant2fish - on the side was another link which was also informative re the other vaccines

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site.../10/27/new-canine-vaccination-guidelines.aspx


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## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

Sorry for reviving this when it's so old! But just wondering if there were any other thoughts floating around out there. Jasper goes in tomorrow. I'm still undecided and was going to talk to our vet about it. I also contacted some vets in Iowa, since we spend a good portion of our time down there visiting family, and it's in a rural area, so there's lots of wildlife and nature walks, etc. One vet said it's not really a problem, the other one said they see it enough that they encourage vaccination. Both vets are about 30-50 minutes outside of my family's hometown, in opposite directions. Crazy.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

For what it's worth I had Boris titre tested a month ago, prior to his 1st year boaster. The vet that took the blood sample advised me to have him vaccinated against Leptospirosis as this vaccine needs doing every year. As it is usually picked up in water, puddles, etc I felt he should have it as he swims in lakes in the summer and drinks from puddles, etc. 

Then two weeks later the results of his titre test come back and he has sufficient cover against all disease except coronavirus (whatever that is). The vaccine for this only come with Leptospirosis or three other vaccines together. As he had already had the Leptospirosis, I talked to my vet about the risks of not covering him for the coronavirus. She said that she had never seen a case of coronavirus and felt it was a risk worth taking to leave it until next year.

So if you have him titre tested - wait till the results come back before deciding which vaccines he should have. Apparently, the reason most dogs are vaccinated yearly is that it is cheaper than testing them to see what they need.


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## Canadian Expy (Feb 27, 2013)

We got Lepto vaccination for Aspen because of the high concentration of raccons in the area,. They also seem to like to use my back yard as there bathroom. Next year we may not do it depending on the raccons and Aspens behaviour around things. (drinking and eating everything )


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