# Reliable recall on the trail



## kiminboonton (Nov 22, 2011)

Happy New year everyone. I wanted to ask a question about recall. I have a 2 year old female. She has been our hiking partner since she was 8 weeks old. We have had her in every training class knows to dog kind since she was a pup, so she has a pretty wide vocabulary, this includes, agility, obedience, therapy, scent training, disc class. The reason I bring up these classes is because when she is in class she is stellar, she is working. When we we work her on the trail and she is working, she is great, its when she is "freestyle" and were just hiking that she has a very far range. Our issue is that we hike the same trail pretty much daily. It’s a huge amount of acreage and people barely use it which is really nice. Tesla knows the trails very well and she can cover lots of ground in a very short amount of time. We will call her back if she is out of sight for too long, but most of the time I find that she is watching us more than we see her. However, I do feel with her familiarity of the terrain, she is exploring further and further and in many instances she is out of our vocal range to call back. She always comes back, but lately there has not been that assured recall that I would like and I think of taking her on other trails, but her roam range is so large that I fear that this is what she will try in other locations where there is more people or roads. 

We did train using an ecollar training last summer, and she did great on flat terrain, like fields when we could she when she was returning but when we were in the woods, we don’t see her so we wouldn’t know if she was returning or not, so the timing was not consistent for us to feel confident using it. So the question is, do I need to go back to the beginning with long line training? Am I missing something that hunting dog training can perhaps teach me? I love the freedom and exercise my dog gets running long distance, but my confidence in reliable recall is making me fear emergency situations and exploring other trails. Any suggestions? 

Here are a few examples of her abilities, but even as I look back, I can see that when she is “on the job” she has excellent recall, however its when we just want to hike and have her at a closer range without having to keep yo-yoing for treats and for her to just stay near. How do you just get them to stay closer and stay in ears shot and not ignore if smelling deer poo is better than chicken. 

Tesla’s recall on flat terrain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_FiK-mEsi4&list=UUwssGHcPhOhlyaiJKniaB8A&index=10

Recalls in the woods- 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9x8-IhMRG8&list=UUwssGHcPhOhlyaiJKniaB8A

Tesla climbing up ladder and going down slide (for the first time)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ox4SGoNCQ0&list=UUwssGHcPhOhlyaiJKniaB8A


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

What is the e-collar? And how it is used on beep or low stim level. 

http://www.truthaboutshockcollars.c...rage-in-training-dogs-and-dolphins-read-this/


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## kiminboonton (Nov 22, 2011)

We use and train using positive reinforcement, but thats why I am asking, because last year we took her on a road trip from NJ to Charleston and really wanted to take her to the beach, but all the positive reinforcement training and relaible recall went out the window when we brought her high distraction areas. So, our friend down in Charleson showed us how to train using the ecollar (shock collar) It was useful using low stim level when she got distracted, but our purpose was to have this as a reliable recall on the trail, and I can only see using it if she is in visual range, otherwise I could see the timing would be off and I would soon break her from poor timing so I hung up the collar. Our issue is she is often times outside of visual range. 

Also, we have a underground fence at home and she trained on it very quickly and we don't even use the collar, she does however take her time coming inside when called and when I use positive training which would be to call once, and then go and retrieve her, that just fails. She runs around and thinks she got me to come out and play with her. Its very frustrating. 

So, I am 90% positive reinforcement, but am willing to use what is reliable and safe. I just fear this thread will become about adversive training vs positive training. Would love to just know what works, and why.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

It's time to heel her up on the trail.

If she is doing everything that you are asking of her, and it seems as if she is, it may be as simple as some heeling work. It's also time to "up her game" because she is bored and occupying herself. If I had to guess, I'd say she is teaching herslef to hunt instntively. Use her inate drive to take her to the next level. 
You won't need the leash, or a check cord. Just keep her at a loose heel with a "Kee-up".
In the beginning she will have to be at heel, let her range a few yards out and give her the "In" command, and bring her back. let her go again and give the "In" command.
Yes, she is yo-yoing in and out, but what you are teaching her is another "game". You can have your freedom, but...... 
As you progress you will not require her to come all the way back to you, and she can be released at a distance, and reset. In all actuallity, I seldom even use words. It's a clap of the hands, a "High" signal to come in,and a wave to move on. You can change her direction, and range with almost no voice at all. I can move my dogs 40-50 yards out without bringing them back to me,and I think you easily can with her also.
She'll get it in short order. I would guess about a week or two with what you've written and the videos demonstrate. She needs to learn to keep you first. Right now she is not, but she will if you're willing to meet her half way.
This is the way V's are hunted. Let them move out, adjust their range, move them to different cover, bring them back, change direction, then do the point, shoot, retrieve stuff. 

I don't think you need the eCollar.


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## kiminboonton (Nov 22, 2011)

I wish I had more trainers like you in NJ, so I can see this in action. I feel like for years I have been working the heel and its exhausting, but if you have books, videos I can review I will try my best to keep it up with keeping her close.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Kim - the 3 things I do not accept r whoa here & heel - it's everytime - try limiting the range of your pup - I want mine to check in at least every 2min or less - they do cover ground - and if not I do correct - does not take to long & your pup will be in whistle or E collar range - or looking 4 U !


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

kiminboonton said:


> We use and train using positive reinforcement
> 
> So, I am 90% positive reinforcement, but am willing to use what is reliable and safe. I just fear this thread will become about adversive training vs positive training. Would love to just know what works, and why.


There is no such thing as purely positive enforcement and expect 100% results.
It simply doesn't work reliably. At some point one must use NO or remove something from the immediate environment (negative enforcement -- doesn't have to mean physical punishment)


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

kiminboonton said:


> I wish I had more trainers like you in NJ, so I can see this in action. I feel like for years I have been working the heel and its exhausting, but if you have books, videos I can review I will try my best to keep it up with keeping her close.



Let me explain my expectation for the Heel.
When the dog is on the leash at the Heel, it's head and shoulders never break the plane forward of my left knee. teh leash should be slack and form a "J" between their collar and my hand. If there is any pressure on the leash, the dog is not at heel.
If the rib cage gets in front of my knee, I do a quick left turn, while commanding heel, and my left knee will make contact with the side of the dog. I am not trying to hurt them, or purposely knee them, I just walk right through them. they have to pay attention. or pay the consequence. At the Heel the dog is not simply paying attention to me, it is paying attention to that left knee.
The Heel is about control. It is absolute control of the dog's mind and feet.

A "loose heel", for me, is utilizing the command "Kee-up", a shortened "keep up". I use it in the field when I need to bring the dog in and still keep moving. The expectation is that the dog is at a loose heel, meaning very close to me, but not in the physical frame of an actual Heel. But they need to pay attention. If they don't it's back on the leash and a A "Heeling Session" takes place.
With a hunting dog you have to be a little careful not to demand too much blind obediance, or risk the dog shutting down. The dog has to be able to hunt, so you have to physically and mentally meet it halfway. The difference is that at a moments notice you have to get the dog back under control if required,and it will be required.

RE's post has a very pertinent philosophy; The dog is supposed to be cognizant of where you are, not the other way around. The dog hunts for you, and you with it. It has to check back for a successful hunt. This takes maturity and work, and sometimes it still goes to **** in the field.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

I just have to thank you for your patience and time you put in your answers, Gunnr.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

thank you gun - PIKE lives his life off lead - we are very lucky where we live - on every run I play hide and seek - I hide behind a tree and when checking in he has to find me - fun for PIKE and fun for me - really works on hunts - on a check in and he does not see me his first priority is find me !


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

datacan said:


> I just have to thank you for your patience and time you put in your answers, Gunnr.


 datacan
Thank you for the compliment. It means alot to me.. 
I've always had a very difficult time with writing, and sometimes it will take me a long time to form a response, Then when I re-read it, it sucks, and I have to either start again, or give up. My comfort zone is math, but I've always envied people that had the abilty to write well. It just never came naturally to me.


R E McCraith

I think that if many of folks on the forum could actually watch a Vizsla being hunted/handled, a lot of their questions would be answered for them. 
As the saying goes; "A picture is worth a thousand words.


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## kiminboonton (Nov 22, 2011)

Gunnr, I totally agree, if more of us had an oppurtunity to see great dog handling in person it would be helpful for us all. I find this sight very useful for written advise, but to watch a vizsla being handled professionally would sure help me personally. 

Thanks all for your well thought out advise.


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## Fox_Trot (Mar 15, 2010)

Kim-
As i read your initial post i felt we have almost identical scenarios, i keep trying new things, commands, trainers, research, and collars... all with time and frustration worrying about bad scenarios. Just wanted to let you know there are others out there with similar problems and the best advice i can give is time, patience, practice, and preparation...


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I think Gunnr has it nailed in terms of why she is ranging. Mostly due to boredom, but also familiarity with the walking area and a desire to investigate what's beyond. each time, extending a little further from the comfort zone. 

REM's suggestion of making pup find you for a check in is a good one. I know if Zsa Zsa starts ranging too far, I will do similar and hide and make her find me. I also do regular U-turns if walking the same area regularly. This stops the pup reading the play and anticipating where we are off to. It also has the desired effect of bringing them in closer. 

So, to fix it, as Gunnr suggested, you need to engage with the dog more. Like you do when hunting, trialling, tracking or doing agility. I know when my dogs wander off a little, it's usually due to my mind doing the same thing and the dogs then go off and hunt for themselves. 

call pup back in, hide and make her find, change direction regularly are some simple things to do. You could also place pup on a check chord fro a while till they work out what distance you are wanting from them. 

One last thing to consider. Even though you cannot see or hear pup, I bet London to a brick that pup can see and hear you.

My female pointer is the more independant of my dogs. She also leanred to hunt for herself at an early age before I got her. Thus she will range further than Astro will. Sometimes she can be 3 or 4 hundred metres into the bush and I cannot see or hear her. But, she can definitely see and hear me!!!  

Another one is to recall often on the trail walk and make the result either fun, or edible!!!


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## kiminboonton (Nov 22, 2011)

_So, to fix it, as Gunnr suggested, you need to engage with the dog more. Like you do when hunting, trialling, tracking or doing agility. I know when my dogs wander off a little, it's usually due to my mind doing the same thing and the dogs then go off and hunt for themselves. _ 

This really rang true for me, since when she is "on the job" she is much more reliable eith recall then when I get lazy and just want to hike and have her follow. I guess I thought I would get to a point where all my work as a pup would pay off and I could just expect a good dog, but its a lesson that its a lifetime of training. I have to step it up!


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

yep...lifelong........Zsa Zsa is 3 and I've spent two weeks trying to fix a broken hand delivery.......so yeah......constant.


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