# Are we doing a injustice to the breed.



## texasred

I have seen quite a few threads on pups/dogs with aggressive behavior problems,resource guarding, and fear problems. Years ago these pups would have been culled, put down. This type of culling is what brought about the great dogs of the past, and guarantied the future of the breed. 
We are now a fix it society, and so we look at these dogs in the same way. If we do certain things, then we should be able to fix a dog that is not hardwired correctly for this breed. Does this do a injustice to the breed? Should these dogs instead be sent back to the breeder? Our heart tells us to keep them, but is it the right thing to do to the breed?

Before anyone thinks I'm a heart less person, I own what is considered a problem dog. Me and him have went through a lot together but he is still with me 4 years later.


----------



## redbirddog

TexasRed,

What a great thread and one that I have pondered myself.

I will take the position that culling (killing) is a tool for severe behavior problem dogs. 

I will also take the position that canine behavior knowledge has been improved over the years where mild behavior problems can be corrected, and if the behavior problem dog is never bred then, of course, the negative trait comes to an end in that line.

We are a "fix it" society, or at least we are sold books and seminars to believe that. 

Breeding practices make the need for culling reduced but not eliminated, IMO. 

I am a firm believer that 90% of the problems we see with dogs are not the dog's problem but the humans element of the human-dog relationship.

Folks in past generations, when they got a "working dog", treated the dog as a working member of the family and it worked or it was culled. Now most dogs don't have meaningful work and emotional problems are the result. Look at bored suburban kids or inner city youth as perfect human examples.

Data from the CDC:
_"Nearly 4.5 million Americans are bitten by dogs each year, half of these are children.
One in five dog bites results in injuries serious enough to require medical attention."_

Good discussion and one that should have some interesting feedback.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/08/promoting-vizsla-as-high-class-bird-dog.html

RBD


----------



## solefald

Well, we don't kill children with sever behavioral issues, do we? I mean, that should improve the society or a race as a whole yet we do not do it. We have therapy and other things, but when that fails we have the judges, jurors and loooooong prison sentences. 

Dogs don't get such luxury. You are the judge and the juror, and sometimes the executioner. You can decide to put down a dog for whatever reason, but does it mean it's your decision to make or even breeders decision? Not like the breeder gave birth to that dog. It's like asking a delivery nurse or a mid-wife if problematic child they helped deliver should be put down. 

Someone posted on Reddit the other day that they just got a dog from a shelter and it turns out that the dog is "aggressive" with 0 elaboration. And a bunch of regular posters and armchair experts start chiming in: "oh yeah, if the dog is really aggressive you should definitely put it down". Are you effin kidding me???? There is 0 usable information that the original poster provided other than he thinks that the dog is "aggressive" and everyone immediately sentenced the poor dog to death without getting into much detail. How many times we see someone come here and claim their puppy is aggressive because he growls or barks? 

Sometimes its the owner, not the dog...


----------



## redbirddog

Solefald,
Good points and the internet forums are the worst jury IMO because we post without all the information.

I believe the Opening post was regarding the health and well-being of the Hungarian Vizsla as a healthy and well-balanced breed. Very different than a rescue pound pup that is neutered or spayed already and whose genes will not be passed on.

A friend of mine does Vizsla rescue of the hardest cases. 
Some Vizslas she has determined, after decades of working with Vizslas , are beyond rehabilitation. She has to make that choice as a well-educated and impartial judge and jury to put a dog down. Most (almost all) are from poor breeding of parents that were fearful or aggressive. We still have to deal with DNA that is passed on by poor breeding practices.

What do you do with the 4.5 million dogs that bite people just in the USA and half are children. Very few dog trainers can get into the "biting dog's mind". there are the rare ones like Caesar Millan but some even he can't save.

Some things can not be "fixed." IMHO.

Good tough discussion. Hope it can stay civil.

RBD


----------



## Rudy

Truth this is real life of Consumers being consumed and throw it away 

Were building little to nothing but words and printing money are grand kids cannot earn back 

It fails its flawed or imported Junk the sheep run too 

Very little we build anymore as we sold are souls there are very few fair trade acts with others :-[ :'(

Facts 

I pray with Reds some integrity still holds and shines Bright For All Great mates the Homeless kids without Hope 

all doggies and cats find safe havens don't care there blood and lines 

all cancer centers and so much more walk in and Volunteer

Its the Holidays give a few a hugs to far less each corner is lined with these folks daily rich and poor areas and the smells will wash off 

and the ones that need a fighters chance to come back.

If we all risks more a few more would win some 

Not all are downwinders!

a few broke from War , Disease and Divorce and far worse 

My Reds and I will spend much of are time trying for smiles and adding some Earned foods in many Tummys 

REDS For Less


----------



## tknafox2

Very interesting topic... 
IMO I believe it is very possible, maybe even likely as the popularity of the breed continues to grow, that the dogs will become Hybrids. Breeders will choose their dames & sires accordingly... It all depends where the market takes them, and wheather they breed hunting V's that will really be working bird dogs, or if they breed V's that will be the family pet and never be introduced to the hunt. 
I would never say that the quality of the dog would suffer, but their true purpose in life would. On the other hand... back to the issue of aggression or other very undesirable traits, or personality flaws. It is truly the responsibility of the owner to isolate the cause... is it in fact a breeding issue, or a training, environmental issue. Any responsible breeder wound never breed dogs with a potential for flaws. Therefore I would believe the breeder should be included in a issue of this magnitude.


----------



## zigzag

Even a good breeder excellent pairing will throw a problem pup. Could be genetic health or temperament. Responsible breeders will stay in contact with the owners of there pups. A good breeder will want to know what's going on with his/her dogs. A good breeder will use that information to determine if the breeding was successful. The problem is... You can't take a 8 week puppy and positively say that it will have temperament problems, maybe in extreme cases. Or maybe a breeder from the old school will take the simple minded approach and cull whatever he/she feels will not suit there breeding programs. This happens more frequently in the competitive arena. Not just Gun Dogs! Most likely the dog will be a year old before you the owner knows there is a problem that can't be fixed. This is when contacting a responsible breeder that is willing to except that his/her breeding may not have been advancing the quality of the breed. Now if repeat breedings continue, then there is your problem.


----------



## tknafox2

Speaking of "Culling" Remember when the "Blue" Weimaraner was an unacceptable result in breeding, and those little dark babies were destroyed. To keep the breed pure.


----------



## R E McCraith

Our forum - a place 4 future new & experienced owners - a place 4 research - ask 4 help - share experiences & pictures - opinions & facts - both have Validity if it makes a member 2 ask new questions - the true CURSE of a VIZSLA is it's beauty - just my opinion


----------



## texasred

The reason I brought up this topic. I believe the owners/buyers, and not just breeders need to play a part to preserve the breed. As owners are we hurting the breed by keeping dogs that have temperament problems? I'm not saying I know the correct answer. In other things if we accept substandard, then it becomes more of the norm. I just felt that this topic is rarely discussed. Its like the skeleton in the closet, and no one wants to open the door and confront it. 
We can spend many hours researching bloodlines, health clearances, and even win/loss records. But people don't like to talk about this problem in the breed. We don't even want to name breeders that have had this come up in their bloodlines. Why, because it could be a owner, not a DNA problem. As long as this is kept in the dark, are we doing a disservice to the breed?


----------



## mswhipple

That's a very good question, TR... I can't pretend to know the answer, but it's certainly something to think about!

I was completely stunned, a few years back, when Willie's Vet told me he has seen quite a number of Vizslas that were aggressive and difficult to handle. My experience with the breed, although limited to two dogs, has been exactly the opposite. For me, their fabulous temperament is one of their most attractive traits! Apparently, there's no guarantee you're going to get that when you buy a Vizsla pup. 

What to do about a "problem" temperament? For myself, I've always committed to the dog for life, warts and all, and would find it impossible to put down a dog I was already bonded with. I once had a Bluetick Coonhound who was pretty dog aggressive. I just worked around it. Good thread, though! 

p.s. Of course, it would always be great to let the breeder know of problems, but if you don't know who the breeder is, you just can't do it.


----------



## R E McCraith

Tex - now my answer 2 your ? if the WE means owners - yes ! thru trials & clubs - I've met some great hobby breeders - one compliant in common is this - they want feed back from new owners on health temperament & ability in the Field & ring - if the new owner breeds at sometime - the pedigree - to follow successes & failures - at best 1 out of 5 provides this info back to the breeder 4 the life of the pup - RBD loves data and so do great breeders - without it how do they know the bloodlines they like are going in the right direction !


----------



## texasred

Without open lines of commutation between breeders and owners, plus actively competing, the breeders would be left in the dark. By your calculations only 10 owners out of every 50 pups sold give feed back. That's such a low number.


----------



## einspänner

tknafox2 said:


> Speaking of "Culling" Remember when the "Blue" Weimaraner was an unacceptable result in breeding, and those little dark babies were destroyed. To keep the breed pure.


I don't have a source for this, but I was talking to an owner of a blue weimaraner at a NAVDHA event and she said DNA testing has shown the blue color is from crossbreeding with Dobermans. So while culling is unpleasant, it does have a place in preserving the integrity of a breed. If I were a breeder I'd find any alternative to doing it of course! I don't have an opinion either way on blue weimies, but I could see how introducing a new color of vizsla could lead to the breed's downfall.


----------



## R E McCraith

1 more POINT - Ken as a breeder & trainer has the Vest of both worlds -I'm sure when training and he gets a exceptional pup 2 work with - he will look at it's bloodlines 2 C the direction that breeder is taking - back in the dark ages when I started - a long distance phone calls cost a fortune - now with all the multi media - no excuse not 2 give your breeder info that will improve the breed


----------



## texasred

I know from a prior post, Ken has taken a dog back to a breeder that wasn't hardwired correctly. I don't know what breed it was.
But yes I'm sure he gets to see some exceptional dogs, both in training and at trials. Seeing them and their offspring compete has to be a wonderful feeling.


----------



## zigzag

After pondering this question and reading the responses. I would like to go back to the original post & answer the question. Culling is not the solution to temperament or health problems in the breed. If breeders were to cull problem dogs no one would ever no there was a genetic problem! The answer is to raise the dogs and find out what kind of dog they become, good bad or ugly. Then give feedback to the breeder and hope they are responsible with the information provided by owners. Of course this does not make a problem dog any better so then decisions need to made for the sake of the owner and the dog.


----------



## tknafox2

Yeah, It's like TexasRed said... and I agree, It is very much the responsibility of the owner. They are the ones that know their dog best, it's temperament, it's personal training, life experiences, environmental issues and any other contributing factors to a personal flaw, beyond a perfect upbringing. 
If the owner truly believes this is DNA related... then it becomes the very serious issue of altering/destroying the breed.
It would be an injustice to the breed if this flawed DNA was permitted to expand or alter the expectations of the natural V.

As for the "Blue" Wheimys... It is now an accepted color, I don't believe they can show?? but at least they don't destroy the pups ... but Case in Point... We now have complete litters of Blue pups, from Gray parents... so much for purity!
Please don't get me wrong, I have no problem with them, almost bought one, my cousin has a blue girl, and she is so adorable and sweet... I am just using this as an example to a major, change to a once pure hunting dog breed, influanced by human owners and breeders.


----------



## texasred

> Yeah, It's like TexasRed said... and I agree, It is very much the responsibility of the owner. They are the ones that know their dog best, it's temperament, it's personal training, life experiences, environmental issues and any other contributing factors to a personal flaw, beyond a perfect upbringing.


I don't think I said that, or at least I didn't mean to imply that. I do believe its important to stay in contact with the breeder. Send them updates on anything good or bad. Ask questions if your not sure on how to proceed in a certain area of training.
I don't have the answer to the question. This is more of a fact finding mission. I would like to keep my heart out of it, and look at it as a factual hunt.


----------



## tknafox2

TexasRed said:


> The reason I brought up this topic. I believe the owners/buyers, and not just breeders need to play a part to preserve the breed. As owners are we hurting the breed by keeping dogs that have temperament problems? I'm not saying I know the correct answer. In other things if we accept substandard, then it becomes more of the norm. I just felt that this topic is rarely discussed. Its like the skeleton in the closet, and no one wants to open the door and confront it.
> We can spend many hours researching bloodlines, health clearances, and even win/loss records. But people don't like to talk about this problem in the breed. We don't even want to name breeders that have had this come up in their bloodlines. Why, because it could be a owner, not a DNA problem. As long as this is kept in the dark, are we doing a disservice to the breed?


So Sorry, I must have misunderstood what you were getting at. I guess I read into what you were saying, my own thoughts, that... If the owner doesn't report back to the breeder, when he believes that there is a problem, then the breeder will never know... but I think I do get your concept, that we owners would rather just deal with it, and keep it to our selves... because we are concerned, it might be something we have created... and that is where the failure to communicate, and the injustice come in... 
am I following you now, or am I still off base, on my own tangent ??? :-[

I really think this is a thought provoking topic, was it in Merle's Door, that the author talked about the eveloution of the Canine from Wolf?? It is just mind bogeling the amount of breeding and mixing that has occured to create the veriety of dogs we see today... the enormity of change in just the past few decades.


----------



## texasred

Part of my point is, if we are willing to keep these dogs the breeder never sees first hand the extent of the problem.
Never gets to evaluate the dog. Can keeping them lead the breeder to believe the situation is not that bad, and do a repeated breeding. Add to that the owners that don't stay in contact with breeders. So what a breeders believes is one pup that acts out with a with a novice owner, could in fact be 2 or 3 from a litter. Would sending these pups back lead to better evaluations, and then better breeding practices?

I've had people tell me they would not have neutered Cash, due to his hunting abilities. They would have bred him to a female of good temperament. Thus improving the temperament in the litter. I wonder how many other people feel that way, and would they change their way of thinking if multiple pups were returned to them. 
I feel there are dogs just as good as Cash, that don't have temperament problems. I could not in good conscience ever breed him. One person that told me this was a breeder, the other was a trialer. 

This is not a thread to down breeders.
Just looking for answers, and are people like me that keep these dogs part of the problem.


----------



## Ksana

TexasRed said:


> I've had people tell me they would not have neutered Cash, due to his hunting abilities. They would have bred him to a female of good temperament. Thus improving the temperament in the litter. I wonder how many other people feel that way, and would they change their way of thinking if multiple pups were returned to them. I feel there are dogs just as good as Cash, that don't have temperament problems.


TexasRed: If there are any such behavioral, conformation, hunting issues, I agree the neutering option (instead of killing like it was done is the past) is the best option. Sorry, I tried to search the forum, but could not find on why exactly you believe Cash has temperament problems. At what age of the dog one may confidently say yes, there are issues? Would you mind sharing this? I think this may help others to evaluate their dogs and choose the best option to go ahead with. As for the breeders to get information about their dogs in the future, I am thinking including the clause into a contract stating an owner must keep in touch and provide such information may help.


----------



## FLgatorgirl

I am not sure what the answer is and it is certainly a complex multifaceted situation. However, I will comment on my personal experience that falls within the discussion on this thread. Ellie has had some behavioral problems from about 12 weeks old starting with resource guarding. We were in constant contact with the breeder because I think the breeder should be your best source for help and needs/wants to know what is going on with their pups. There were no problems reported with any of the other pups in the litter. Our breeder as well as the sire's breeder were shocked at some of Ellie's behavior and both offered suggestions as well as to take her back for a few weeks for evaluation. Because of the long distance involved to return her, we turned to a private trainer instead. In retrospect and because of our inexperience with this type of problem, we should have sent her back for evaluation and to nip the problem in the bud at that time. 

Fast forward to around 9 months of age and although the resource guarding was somewhat better for awhile, she suddenly gets much worse. We return her to the breeder for evaluation for a month. Ellie's littermate happens to be visiting for two weeks at the same time and although it has never been mentioned by his owners, he exhibits some of the exact same resource guarding behaviors as Ellie while at the breeders!! The breeder is not happy because the owners never mentioned it. She asks them and they kind of blow it off as "cute". My husband thought from the start that it did not make sense that our pup was the only one in the litter with these issues. I think a lot of people probably never report problems to the breeder and either learn to live with the problem, don't see it as a problem or try to fix it on their own. This does nothing to help the breeder improve their lines. 

Ellie's dam and sire both have excellent temperaments, however this was the first breeding of these two dogs. The breeder said that unfortunately, sometimes even with two great dogs, something just doesn't mix well. She will not repeat this breeding because of the issues with Ellie and her littermate. 

I know owner fault/inexperience as well as environmental issues have been mentioned regarding problems in dogs as opposed to genetic predisposition. Knowing that another littermate has the same issues as well as Ellie's diagnosis from a board certified behaviorist leads to this being a "hard wiring" issue. However, I still believe that someone with a lot more experience with behavioral issues in dogs could have seen this much earlier and worked through it quicker.


----------



## texasred

Ksana
Cash was labeled as going to be a tough one by the breeder, when I purchased him at 8 weeks old. He was not as biddable as the other pups in the litter. I call it hardheaded/stubborn. Yes I could have chosen a different pup. He no way pushed me to chose him. I have and still do keep in contact with the breeder. He never thought Cash would be as bad as he has turned out, and has helped me tremendously with research and support.

Cash started where he would growl or snap if he was bothered by anyone but me when resting. I guess that was at a few months old. I worked with him tirelessly and would crate him if I wasn't home. My teenage kids were not to have him out if I was away. They did, and when he growled they backed down. In hindsight I should have put him in the locked outside kennel.
Fast forward to a 9 month old dog that will go after a your son, for just walking into a room. Even though my son is 6 foot tall, Cash considered him soft. Dogs learn very quickly who they can push, and who they can't.
Cash has had to learn to be a very obedient dog, that my word is final. He wore a lead with a leerburg dominant dog collar, and a ecollar every day. I wore boots and gloves. That way I could handle anything he dished out in a calm manner without him drawing blood. He would not go after me directly, but had snapped at me for me stopping him from going after someone else. It was in no way an overnight fix, and any slacking on my part will bring out the aggressive side of him. 
Because of all the work put in, people that meet him do not relies how bad he was, or could be. Only because I don't have any small kids in my house was I able to keep him. By owning two female Vs that have sweet temperaments, I can tell you the training is like night and day. They would never even consider acting aggressive towards anyone.


----------



## Ksana

Thanks TexasRed and FLgatorgirl for sharing, this is helpful. As a first time Vizlsa owner, this forum is being very helpful. It is always good to know what to watch out for (your cases sound challenging). We control (give and take away often) the puppy's food, bones, toys. It will be interesting to see how the pup will behave when my 6'3" (gentle giant) son will come home for Christmas. I will ask him to test the pup.


----------



## zigzag

Texas red. What a tough ride you have had. It's hard to imagine having to put that much work into a young dog. I respect that. I liked this thread because it does address the good, bad, and ugly of dog breeding. I spent 3 months every summer working in my grandfathers kennel. He retired as a farm Veterinarian and built a kennel as his retirement project. I learned a lot about dogs and puppy's (breeding programs) let's just say that there was some old school ideology about breeding dogs. I will leave it at that! So when the subject of culling came up, I really was thinking in terms of early development. When I think about a fully developed dog with behavior problems the word or term culling starts to lose its meaning. At least in my interpretation of the term.


----------



## zigzag

The Tandem Method is a form of selective breeding where a breeder addresses one characteristic of the animal at a time, thus selecting only animals that measure above a certain threshold for that particular trait while keeping other traits constant. Once that level of quality in the single trait is achieved, the breeder will focus on a second trait and cull based on that quality.[2] With the tandem method, a minimum level of quality is set for important characteristics that the breeder wishes to remain constant. The breeder is focussing improvement in one particular trait without losing quality of the others. The breeder will raise the threshold for selection on this trait with each successive generation of progeny, thus ensuring improvement in this single characteristic of his breeding program.

For example, let's say that a breeder is pleased with the muzzle length, muzzle shape, and eye placement in her breeding stock, but wishes to improve the eye shape of progeny produced. The breeder then determines a minimum level of improvement in eye shape required for her to fold progeny back into her breeding program. Progeny is first evaluated on the existing quality thresholds in place for muzzle length, muzzle shape, and eye placement with the additional criterion being improvement in eye shape. Any animal that does not meet this level of improvement in the eye shape while maintaining the other qualities is culled from the breeding program; i.e., that animal is not used for breeding, but is instead spayed/neutered and placed in a pet home.


----------



## MeandMy3

This is a great thread! I love everyone's opinions and thoughts. TexasRed, I really admire everything you have done for Cash. FLgatorgirl, you too! I remember your struggles and how hard it was to send your little one back to the breeder. 

When we got our first lab, the first dog I ever paid for, I was so excited to get the cute little chocolate bundle of love that I didn't look much into her breeding. After we fell in love, brought her home, spent at least an entire pay check on food, vet bills, toys, treats, beds, and blankets (I'm sure you've all done that), I found out that the breeder had to put three pups down because they were blind. This broke my heart. It also taught me a valuable lesson in breeding and selection. The breeder never once offered to take her back in the event that her eyes were bad, or anything else. Of course, we were in love with her so it didn't matter to us. This dog also has a great temperament, unless you are a dog under 20 lbs. We have had some aggression issues (towards small dogs only) with her and now are very careful. Three years later, the breeders bred the same dogs again, even after knowing our aggression issues and that the blindness was hereditary. I was sick about it. For one, I can't imagine taking the risk of having to put more pups down, and I can't imagine passing those traits on to buyers who may turn into irresponsible breeders. 

With our next two dogs - our red lab and our baby Vizsla, I was much more careful in selection. 

Thanks, TexasRed, for bringing this issue up and waking up my brain this morning.


----------



## FLgatorgirl

I think TexasRed has mentioned before that it is hard to explain to people the lengths you will go to for your dog. I truly admire what she has done for Cash and am thankful our journey with Ellie has not been as difficult or complex. I like to hope I would have the fortitude TexasRed has if our situation were different. 

I think having a close relationship with a good breeder is VERY important in owning a Vizsla and we are lucky that ours is willing to do whatever it takes to help us and do what is best for Ellie.


----------



## texasred

I agree that the word culling is normally reserved for young pups. It has been used more for physical attributes than hardwire issues. 
The extent of hardwire issues would be very hard to determine on most young pups. The full extent does not come to light until the pup ages, although there can be signs. 
I used the word culling because a good many of the dogs are sent to rescues. The rescues can't adopt them out because of their issues, and in turn have to put some of them down. Second I don't believe most breeders are going to keep a aggressive dog that is returned to them.


I don't think I should be respected, praised, or admired for making the decision to keep and work with Cash. I kept him because I'm softhearted. Also me being stubborn as a mule would not let me give up on his training.


----------



## giandaliajr

It's definitely the responsibility of the breeder to keep in contact with the owners to see temperament. I was very surprised that the only time I heard from my breeder was the day after we picked him up. Luckily he is a pretty good pup now (after the rough first 4 months). Although this was her dames last litter and she has had at least a couple litters with the same sire so maybe she just assumed they were all good like the last couple litters. 

I think the problem with the breed potentially going downhill is with puppy mills. Our dog sitter here in NYC has told me she has noticed a huge increased in city people wanting vizslas, and she has been in the dog business for the last 15 years. Although my wife and I have the schedule to be able to devote enough time to a V, most city people do not and my guess is there is a high rate of return. But again that's the breeders job to determine if potential owners have the lifestyle necessary to accommodate a V.

Maybe AKC needs to put more regulation into breeding programs. As far as I know, as long as I have a fully registered dog I can breed him and get papers without much hassle or paperwork. Although I'm generally not for more regulation, something like the AKC making tougher rules would be a good thing. I would have been more than happy to pay an extra couple hundred bucks to compensate AKC for increased expenses for whatever new rules they come up with (home visits, food requirements, mental and physical health examinations, registration).


----------



## FLgatorgirl

TexasRed,

I know what you mean, I am soft hearted and determined as well which is part of the reason we did not let Ellie go back to the breeder's for evaluation and some behavior work when she was younger. I think all of the respect/admiration etc that you hear is because soft hearted or not, a lot of people are not willing or able to put in the work needed to help a dog with behavioral problems. It is easier just to send it back or turn it over to rescue or a shelter. 

Our breeder has only had to take back one dog many years ago that was deemed aggressive and the owners were told by a behaviorist to put the dog down. Sadly, these people never communicated with the breeder all along the way when the problems started and continued to get worse. They waited until it was a desperate situation to contact her. Knowing her line's temperaments and knowing the environmental issues the dog dealt with in it's household, the breeder took the dog back certain she could help him. She worked with him for almost a year to ensure he was going to be safe. He went to an experienced V home that knew his prior issues and eight years later, he has never bitten anyone else. Our breeder is soft hearted and stubborn too .


----------



## R E McCraith

Puppy mills will always V out there - AKC can only do so much without owner feed back - if you do your research - you will find some mills that have the AKC breeder of merit status - so do not put much faith in that - a great breeder has done so much more research than a owner to find the best blood lines - the breeder can not force a owner 2 stay in contact - they are always available 2 help you - back 2 my point - it's the owners responsibilty to find a great breeder & STAY in TOUCH !!!!!!


----------



## WillowyndRanch

Intellectual Property removed by Author.


----------



## WillowyndRanch

Intellectual Property removed by Author.


----------



## giandaliajr

giandaliajr said:


> But again that's the breeders job to determine if potential owners have the lifestyle necessary to accommodate a V.


Does one then just say "no" to anyone who lives in a city? Should the breeder hire investigators to follow the prospective buyers around to see how active they really are, versus what they say they do? One thing I've learned as a breeder is that people work hard to tell you what you want to hear so they can get one of your dogs. Mostly it's true. Sometimes it's not. Where does the line stop that it's the breeder's responsibility? Does the automotive company say you can't buy a 450 hp. Viper if you only plan on driving to church on Sunday, or have a DUI? Should the Grocer say a person can't buy the double stuffed oreos because they're obese and only sell them a rice cake and celery? When does it become the responsibility of the buyer to know whether they can handle a V or not? 

They are just responsible to ask and attempt to determine if the potential owner is being truthful. I think in generally people would appreciate being fully informed about what to expect and have a real conversation on their ability to do what is needed. Our breeder asked a few questions but it wasn't very in-depth.



giandaliajr said:


> Maybe AKC needs to put more regulation into breeding programs. As far as I know, as long as I have a fully registered dog I can breed him and get papers without much hassle or paperwork. Although I'm generally not for more regulation, something like the AKC making tougher rules would be a good thing. I would have been more than happy to pay an extra couple hundred bucks to compensate AKC for increased expenses for whatever new rules they come up with (home visits, food requirements, mental and physical health examinations, registration).


What you describe is what PETA and HSUS is pushing in their anti-AKC campaign - all of it designed to eliminate breeding and owning dogs - period. You want to have it ok for someone to come into your home, un-announced to check on the well being of your dog? You want them to be able to dictate how you care for and feed it? You want a list of "acceptable" behaviors that believe it or not some of which are not well suited to city dog living but mandatory for say a dog that works cattle everyday? What levels of physical examinations are required? 
There is no end to where those limits lie, until the end of having a dog. 

Ken
[/quote]

Im not talking about a blanket one size fits all regulation. Throw in tiers, have accredited breeders that allow the AKC to up the requirements to maintain status. It's the same as other industry certifications, you have to allow some level of regulation in exchange for the stamp of approval.


----------



## Rudy

What about Breeders Personally using modified artificially inseminated sperm in His females? : 

When in fact advanced cell and blood testing the DNA and Genetics in the Frozen sperm dies within her in 2 to 2.5 hours?  :

whats the results and long term results of these practices ?

and Sir Rudy Sperm advances and thrives inside Her For 5 to 6 days?

each ditch has a side ;D

Were coming for Reds and truths and to ensure they get they gain the Best natural blood show or field can advance 

without messing with such choices above

Like Core Foods Natural tested earned work benches win 

not in numbers or in mills or larger doggie camps the 1 percenters we seek some maybe blessed or Gifted a real Red Blessing 

Make it a great day for Reds and Less

these are choices not just chances


----------



## solefald

A breeder I was in contact with ceased all communication with me as soon as they found out that I don't have a back yard.

People tell breeders what breeders want to hear not because they want one of *their* dogs so bad, but because majority of the breeders (at least the ones I spoke to), make you feel unworthy of their dogs, just because the square footage of your home, because you don't have a back yard, because you don't plan to show the dog, or because you have never owned a Vizsla before. I have waited for 20 YEARS to get a dog, and Vizsla in particular. I have waited until I have my own house, stable income, free time, etc. and going from breeder to breeder and heading that I am not good enough for their dogs was absolutely ridiculous. I was lucky enough to find an awesome breeder and when I got on a plane and flew to meet her 3 weeks before I went to pick up the puppy, she told me that that right there showed her how committed I was. 

Sometimes breeders do more disservice for the breed with their attitudes.


----------



## texasred

Rudy That's way off the subject.

My two females are a product of frozen.
To put it back on topic, they have no temperament issues.

Ken, I just wanted to say thank you for your honesty.


----------



## texasred

Oops duplicate post.


----------



## WillowyndRanch

Intellectual property removed by Author.


----------



## WillowyndRanch

Intellectual Property removed by Author.


----------



## solefald

There is no need to "win" arguments. It is understandable that you don't talk to "I want a puppy how. How much?" people, but when my *first* email to a breeder is 3 pages long describing every detail about my family, my living situation, my work situation, my lifestyle, why I want a Vizsla, what I know about the breed, etc., starting your reply with "You don't understand" it is an insult to me. No matter how reputable that breeder is, I will relay my experience to other people. So yes, public opinion matters very much. This is part of the business. Don't want to deal with general public? Sell your puppies to other breeders only. Problem solved. But if you want to breed and sell dogs, you have to work with people and evaluate each individual situation. There is no way around it. You can be the best at what you do, you can have the greatest product there is, but if cant work with potential customers, its best to get out of the business.


----------



## zigzag

More AKC regulation or even worse government regulation is not the answer. YES puppy mills should be destroyed! I also think pet stores should not be allowed to sell dogs. That alone would stop a large portion of unsanitary breeding. Buying a dog should not be like shopping for a car, potential dog buyers need to take a personal approach to the acquisition of a dog.


----------



## redbirddog

Ken,
You know my dog and me well. You know Bailey has sired three liters of pups. I made a point to reach out to all the puppy buyers to hike or go out into the field to watch Bailey do what nature intended. Of the nineteen puppy buyers, seven have walked and talked with me in the hills as their pups ran with Bailey and Chloe. Four have joined us out into the hunting fields to see what "dad" did for a living. But that left eight that never responded to my invitations. I know that I wasn't the breeder, but I had a part to play in doing justice to the breed.

Your post about not "winning" at defining what the public accepts as "reputable", no matter what you do, is too real to me. 

I don't have the fortitude to breed. I could get a great stud and a great dame together and produce some great pups. That I have no doubt. But once the small Hungarian Pointers go to live somewhere else and the new "very interested buyers" don't return emails or check in or ask questions after they have your precious gift to them; then I'd have to ask myself, "why do I care so much if they don't?"

Good conversation as we enter the holidays. Remember "NO CHRISTMAS PUPPIES under the Christmas tree."

Happy Thanksgiving. We'll be out in the hills hiking the next four mornings. It's what we happily do.

Invitation to hike and talk dogs is always open to any HVF member.

RBD


----------



## texasred

A story from my childhood. I wanted a honey bear and I have to say I pestered my parents for months. I owned or had owned in the past dogs, cats, horses, calves, pet pig and lamb. Even had a **** that I raised from a bottle. I never did get that honey bear. As adult I now understand that it wouldn't have been a good fit.

Breeders have there reasons for picking who purchases their pups. Them turning down a prospective buyer maybe a blessing in disguise to that person. Matching pups to owners can't be a easy task. Very few of us on the forum would want that job.


----------



## WillowyndRanch

message deleted by author.


----------



## WillowyndRanch

message deleted by author.


----------



## solefald

@WillowyndRanch: Oh no, not at all! It was not directed towards you personally.


----------



## Rudy

Tex was off with the Reds 

Facts

Just a a light example farm raised Salmon and other fish contained and fed crap with roids, growth hormones and worse all suck stuck in raising nets !

worse on chickens cows and most all man has F up and changed key balances

that branch back and raise disease and reduce health

They swim in there own $hit and the folks that consume this and farmed raised fish this choice is lights out at bigger risks to there health these are facts 

Next to Wild Stocks migrating Salmon 200 to 1 fact and the diseases that come from these acts  

Radiated meats worse 

the consumer gets consumed by greed and global pressures

What I said is free speech and correct and relates to the subject matter to Me maybe not you?

This is a open format I think?

No Fish farms no freeze then apply process with more risks and more flaws then God Giving Nature can Match Mother Nature  and God apples to apples 

Natural and Nature are the best with the proper blood lines , great past DNA research and your personal Road work and education in every process to A-Z by light years.

These are all choices

like free speech

No threats no BS for Reds and like some other goofs :

we fed bagged crappers for years its good enough for me and us why change . ?

ok the earth is flat ;D


Sorry its not even close to a giving living being on the worse day of the Year that can repair cells blood and joints eyes and skin and digestion and tons more 

Like all sports the 1 percent See it breath it and live it with far greater risks then a word normal

which is a bore to me

99 watch it or make another choice



They the few who earned it from years of great risks stress and choices and training some were gifted as well

Everyone have a better then Blessed turkey day

make it a free grazer earned and share most of it to less 

giving is a risk I make daily

Make it a great day for others ;D


----------



## redbirddog

http://rufflyspeaking.net/were-breeders-why-are-we-anti-breeding/

by JOANNA KIMBALL	on November 26, 2013

_"Good breeders never breed back to back."

"I’ve been in the breed fifteen years and have bred only three litters."

"Did you see that Harriet had FIVE litters this year? I guess she’s our new puppy mill, huh?"

"Ladies, check out Gloria’s new litter – and you know she’s still got those four-month-olds from the last one!"

"I’m glad to see puppy registrations decline; we should all be breeding less."_

Spend more than five minutes in a dog forum on Facebook, or hang out ringside with any breeders, and you’ll see that these are close to direct quotes. The only thing two breeders can agree on is that a third breeder is doing something wrong, and the easiest target is when the third breeder has broken the sacred barrier and is (gasp!) breeding IN VOLUME.

We are making a TRAGIC mistake. We have forgotten that the word CAREFULLY and the word SELDOM are not the same word.

We know we’re supposed to be careful in how we breed. But somehow that has become twisted into “The better a breeder you are, the less you breed.” I’ve seen people actually brag, trying to one-up each other on how few breedings they’ve done, with the clear implication that breeding almost never means you are more responsible than someone who breeds regularly.

*Here’s the truth:* Breeding dogs requires on-the-job training. No matter how much you research, learn, ask, and listen, it won’t make sense until you’re looking at a litter of puppies and watching them grow. And you cannot understand keeping traits through generations unless you have generations to keep traits through.

*Here’s another truth:* We’re badly, badly hurting for well-bred purebreds in this country and around the world. Awful purebreds are everywhere, but most people go their entire lives without meeting a well-bred dog. They literally have no idea that a dog can look “like that.” Beautifully built, groomed, and trained dogs gather crowds bigger than the ones around the elephant cage. Vets can go years between seeing dogs that should be bred (which is why many of them hate us so much). That’s OUR FAULT. We breed our self-righteous trickle of dogs, which go right into the yards of other show breeders, and then we scream when our rights are taken away. Well, lady, how are they supposed to be on our side when they’ve never seen a dog except from a breeder that should be shut down?

*Here’s one more truth: * Most of your breeding efforts are going to fail – that’s the nature of breeding living things. So you may have to do it over and over and over, discarding entire pedigrees after you’ve watched them produce, beginning new ones, purchasing new dogs, neutering others. Things START to make sense after (I think) about your fifth litter if you’re very very smart and after your tenth if you’re a normal breeder. In the breeding programs I’ve watched, that’s when things start to move forward instead of just flailing around, because that’s when the breeder starts to understand how traits build a dog.

But you’re still not done, not in any sense of the word. The breeders you can think of in your breed that are truly dominant, the ones that have such strength that you can see the influence of their decisions years down the line, are likely on their thirtieth or fortieth or fiftieth litter. Ask one of those breeders someday what they got from their third litter, and see them laugh in rueful memory at how bad it was. That’s the same third litter that’s being produced by someone in the breed fifteen or twenty years and bragging about how rarely they breed. Early litters are terrible! But they’re something we all have to get through and do the best we can with, and look back on and laugh a little about. They’re not someplace we park our butts and sit for a decade.

Look. You cannot be a good breeder without breeding. You can’t be a great breeder without breeding a LOT. And we all know that we desperately need more good breeders, and we even more desperately need great breeders. So we should be encouraging each other to breed. We should not snark that somebody’s had more than the sacred “one or two litters a year,” or that someone bred a bitch more than twice. We should congratulate them on moving past the baby-breeder stage and into the maturing-breeder stage. We should celebrate the bitches who can healthily produce many litters without turning a hair. We should encourage our dedicated owners and co-owners, once they have finished a dog or two, to begin breeding themselves instead of waiting for the next show puppy from us.

When we do encourage breeding, let’s also be honest. The chance of you getting a litter of all champions is only slightly higher than being hit by lightning while being consumed by a crocodile. On Mars. You’re lucky, and this is not an exaggeration, if you get even a single dog to move forward with from your first breeding. You’re fortunate in ANY breeding, from your first to your hundredth, to get a single puppy that is truly better than both parents. Baby breeders need to know that. They should not be lining up show homes and expecting to put half the puppies in them. I had to learn this lesson, and it was no fun, but I am a lot happier now looking for the one puppy to move on with – and being thrilled when there is a second one – than I was when I was trying to come up with three show puppies in a litter of six. New breeders need to be told that. You will be happier and better as a breeder if you find ONE puppy in a litter than if you are trying to find three or four. If you have three or four legitimate show homes, then breed three or four litters (which means, yes, BREEDING MORE) instead of trying to tell yourself that your fourth pick is just as high-quality as your first.

Now go forth, and be a breeder who breeds.


----------



## texasred

Nice article RBD.
In the end, all I want is a honest breeder that shares the same ethics as I do. I don't think there is a one size fits all when it comes to breeders, or owners.

I do have one pet peeve that will make me run from a breeder/trainer. It doesn't matter how much I like the bloodline. I can't stand to be around someone that is only happy if they are downing other breeder/trainers. I enjoy staying in contact with the breeder, and this quality would make it tough for me to do so.

Time to head out and enjoy Thanksgiving with my family.
Deb.


----------



## Rudy

Like Real hunting None are planted few are by main roads

None are fed pellets and caged or marked with ribbons 

Yes a young child or a pup 2 or 3 trys could help a tad 

then the learning curve for all who do this Choice back slides as well as the mates 

Here are the Facts planted birds do not respond or react to wild birds in any application 

Guide seat 1 age 17

there Earned 

Fluff does not create Puff

words mean almost nothing without a life trail mix to match them 

and Reading words without earning it over a lifetime is a sell out To Reds 

To Hunt is too risk and earn for the Red and The Hunter and the search and the research the planning and the risks 

if were 5 miles near a road many use

I sold out my group and my mates 

the Rest is a sell out without odds and real passions 

The Seek is raw remote and extreme and You are your Vet and handler You are there Lead wolf they look to for earned respect and loves 

the rest and your guts will tell you how weak this choice is if your a Man : :-\ who can will expose the 3/4 dull of half dead birds.

Eating a Rooster so proud and free planted :'(

Go by a grocery store buy a store bought chicken that has more guts and risks and nuts in the Hood ;D 

then any planted bird 

Real life is not that hard the Biggest flaw of the internet 

and Great Pointers can be blessed by only Nature and natural acts 

I have been blessed to be next to 4 Top end mates out of 15 that all were better then a norm or average 

many of the others were strong B as well

'truth its true Great Mates are Few 

Its the same game with food choices supplements and cares

the Ditch is clear

the Right Side is earned

the left side gets exposed

each do you Best for Reds

We will expose each and all back 100 years and more on are Reds when they come

I will support each one to the end 

They will be all great

some will be better then before some less

the handler helps bunches

kids Vets and less

they need Turkey and Hugs more then us 

risk some

hate will never make you great

caring sharing and risking could

God Bless

my Reds are eating King Earned Jerky I may as well ;D


----------

