# When will it be over?



## MilesMom

Anyone have any insight on when "Vizsla adolescence" is over?? Miles is 15 months today and we though we were heading out of this phase as he has been better with commands, stopped challenging us for dominance, and his fear with new people has greatly improved. We thought we were heading out of the teenage years but today he has been awful so we are thinking it's not over yet.... 

Today he is trying to be dominant over me (as he knows he won't win with my husband) and yawns or scratches when we give a command which our trainer says is his way of controlling the situation. He also made an effort (only his second time ever) to guard his bone. Overall he is a good boy but I am getting frustrated with him reverting back to these ways every few weeks despite persistent training. Anyone with slightly older Vizslas have any advice?


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## Rudy

Copper topper age 13 ;D

lived untill 18"" 

His Heart took 3 loads before he stopped

Rudys worse it seems DNA and Willow mercy me ;D


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## texasred

Stay strong and keep up with all the hard work.
Cash is my problem child. He to will yawn and sigh at times to try and get out of doing something. It never works, and you would think he would figure that out. Sometimes they with yawn when stressed.
I don't know how bad Miles is, but Cash was at the high end of the scale on dominant behavior.
He is good 98 percent of the time (will be 4 yrs old in June)but will still give it a try. He will always be a work in progress.
If you ever feel frustrated, put him up. Get him back out when your calm and your emotions are in controll. I lost it with Cash once. My teenage son walk up me, to kiss me goodnight. Cash leaped up and bit his hand. Before I thought I hit Cash across the head . Grabbed him by the back of the neck and his back. Literary threw him in the kennel. I had lost it. I was mad at Cash and mad at my son. My son for walking up to Cash while he was asleep at my feet. Cash was on a lead but was to quick for me to stop him before the bite. My son knew better but wasn't thinking. That's been along time ago, and its been years since Cash has bitten anyone.
If I let up on be a assertive owner Im sure he would revert back to his old ways in no time.


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## MilesMom

Miles is on the submissive side. He is the one getting humped by other dogs and always backs down in a game of fetch if another dog starts chasing the ball. We believe that he is trying to climb the pack in our house and is trying to get past me as my husband has a stronger more assertive presence than I do. I was very disappointed with the guarding since it's been so long (8 months!) since he last tried that. I took the bone away from him and he looked remorseful for his behavior. 

All of my friends think we are crazy for getting another puppy... but I think the puppy phase is easy! Miles was the best puppy ever! But this teenage stuff sure is challenging.


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## harrigab

above all stay calm and controlled, Ruby at 20 mths is only just older than Miles, never try and train after a bad day at work. When Ruby tries getting bossy I turn my back on her, raising my voice achieved zilch, then I say "are you steady yet?" she'll plonk her bum to the floor and I'll wait a few seconds telling her gently and calmly "goood steady" before giving her a rib/chest tickle. Same as when the postie comes up the garden path, rather than barking a "down" command (she gets on the sofa back to bark at him through the window) I just say "Ruby, steady", she comes down at once, itching to get back up on the sofa back, but as she sits I keep telling her calmly, "goood steady". This approach really does seem to be paying off. I think you've got to keep a good controlled voice throughout that way your dog can't wrest control.


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## MilesMom

Thanks. I used to get very frustrated with him but I know he doesn't understand why, he just senses the anxiety I create by getting mad. So at 20 months still going through it? Sigh. I guess I should look at the positives and realize that I should carry dog training qualities into all aspects of life. Patience, calm and controlled attitude, and consistency good for work and life too


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## mswhipple

Willie is so funny in this regard. If he doesn't want to do something I ask, he will roll over and present his belly. Very submissive, right? But you see, he still isn't doing what I asked! I have no idea where this behavior came from, because I didn't have him for his first two years. Anyhow, when this happens, I have to lower my voice somewhat to be sure I sound a little stern, and then he will comply as asked. I should note that he doesn't do this very often. He really is a very good boy. ;D ;D ;D

Miles is still an adolescent, as you said, and every dog is different as to when they are truly mature. Just be consistent and hang in there. It will happen gradually. Harrigab's right -- voice is extremely important. Mile's has to know that you mean it.


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## texasred

Have you decided on a breeder yet?
I knew Cash was going to be a handful before I got him.
One overly strong willed dog was enough for our house hold. I made sure the girls were out of very biddable dogs that pasted that on to their litters.
If you haven't found a breeder yet, I would check and see if Ken (Willowynd Ranch) has bred Hank with any bitches that carry the same trait. ET passes on high drive, sweet biddable pups. What you pay up front, you will save on training later. Its a night and day difference.


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## harrigab

MilesMom said:


> Thanks. I used to get very frustrated with him but I know he doesn't understand why, he just senses the anxiety I create by getting mad. _*So at 20 months still going through it? *_Sigh. I guess I should look at the positives and realize that I should carry dog training qualities into all aspects of life. Patience, calm and controlled attitude, and consistency good for work and life too


no MM, she's a lot better now, although not too long ago I was wondering if we'd ever get to the stage where we are now. i took Ruby to a couple of group training sessions with a pro trainer and he pointed out where I was going wrong and we've developed a programme from there, it meant stripping back to the basics in some areas that I'd neglected ie "steady" in a controlled calm manner coupled with lots of praise when she reacted positively. Obviously she's still a long way off the finishing mark yet but at last it feels like every training session is a step forward as opposed to 2 steps forward 1 step backwards


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## TAIsMom

TexasRed said:


> If you haven't found a breeder yet, I would check and see if Ken (Willowynd Ranch) has bred Hank with any bitches that carry the same trait. ET passes on high drive, sweet biddable pups. What you pay up front, you will save on training later. Its a night and day difference.


I just got a pup from Ken's last litter by Nellie. Tai (aka Honda) is the sweetest most cuddly, eager to please pup in the world. Not to say that he doesn't have his moments, but he's only 14 weeks old and I'm trying to keep training focused yet fun at this point. Oh, and I think he's fooling me, but I could swear he's already potty trained.  I want to work with Mike George in the Vizsla club here in AZ to get him field trained. I drove over 600 miles to get my Valentine pup and I don't regret it one bit.  I wholly agree with TexasRed that, if you're looking for a new pup, Ken at Willowynd Ranch is a great breeder and resource!


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## MilesMom

Thank you everyone! We have heard great things about Ken's pups and I actually just recommended them to a friend looking for a new puppy. We have been on the list back at Rusty Dog Ranch and are excited to get a puppy that will be Miles' cousin. Any tips on what to look for in a puppy in regards to easy to train? We didn't get to pick Miles. He was second choice in his litter but the man who was going to adopt him had some life changes that made him back out of adoption and Julie called us as she thought he would be a good fit for our family. Any tips would be great for picking out our second!


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## datacan

I am not exactly sure I understand what on earth you guys are talking about? 

At 24 months dog just discovered he's purpose in life. I don't expect Sam to dumb down his hormone levels just because I don't want to deal. 

Miles needs to get trainer who understands dogs. What he is describing is called alternate behavior, dog just tries to negotiate the commands, IMO. Dominance my Aaa.


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## Ozkar

I've got great news for you MM.......................they try it on their whole lives........they are Vizslas, not Bichon Freizes!!!!  Prepare yourself for the Terrible 3's. They are even worse!!!


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## born36

Sorry to break the bad news to you but 15 months is nothing. My Mac is going to be 2 in May and he has good and bad days. I never know when on a random walk he is going to decide that recall doesn't matter and that every dog is there to pester! 

He is getting better. Be patient and consistent as over time these type of things happen less and less often.


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## texasred

Different expectations, and different dogs.
Resource guarding in a 15 month old dog, is not a puppy stage. He is seeing her as the weak link, as he will not try it with her husband. Strong willed dogs need assertive owners. 

June and Lucy would never dream of growling, or guarding something from me. Its just not in their nature.
The only disobedience they my show is having to be asked twice on occasion to move over. Mine are ecollar trained so refusing a recall is not an option. I don't think June has even been nicked with the ecollar in over a year for recall, or anything else.
So that would make her around a year and a half for perfect recall without a correction.

Milesmom There are breeders that have puppies tested for personality profile, and the breeders see them everyday. Its better to have them match you with a puppy than you pick, if you can't spend considerable time with a litter. You have to trust that the breeder has your, and the puppy's best intrest at heart.


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## datacan

MilesMom said:


> Thank you everyone! We have heard great things about Ken's pups and I actually just recommended them to a friend looking for a new puppy. We have been on the list back at Rusty Dog Ranch and are excited to get a puppy that will be Miles' cousin. Any tips on what to look for in a puppy in regards to easy to train? We didn't get to pick Miles. He was second choice in his litter but the man who was going to adopt him had some life changes that made him back out of adoption and Julie called us as she thought he would be a good fit for our family. Any tips would be great for picking out our second!


1.
Hold on a minute, maybe longer... You need to be able to understand and know the first dog before adding a second... By knowing I don't just mean having the dog under your thumb, I mean forming a partnership. 
If this is ignored, the dogs will work things out for themselves and cut you out of the lead role. Potentially, this could be dangerous, not just for you but for other dogs and humans as well. 

The reason the dog offers alternate behaviors is because it is under stress or reached the limits of current comprehension or it's mind races ahead and begins to anticipate. Some of the softest dogs are so intelligent, they start to anticipate very early. 
Just like with autistic children, patience is the key. My sister in law is a teacher in a special needs school. They learn only by very gentlely and consistently nugging them out of their comfort zone. They also NEED to have way out so they can cope with pressure. 

We tend to ignore the mind and focus on external features like looks, muscles, bone structure, size. If the dog is big and strong, we tend to use more force just because we think it can take it. 
I have never achieved anything fast, but I must mention that the dog is with me all the time and have all day at my disposal. So, I don't need tools like prongs and ecollars to train the dog fast (Hey, time is money in the business)... Those tools are reserved for special occasions, mostly distractions training and safety, in case if the ecollar. 

You NEED a new approach, your current trainer may have reached the limits. I mean time wise he cannot invest more, otherwise he will go out of business. Time is money in the business, it's all about getting things done... Unfortunately, some dogs cannot fit in that schedule. 
Don't get me wrong, the trainer knows what to do, after all, he's seen the dog before in pictures and textbooks...


2.
http://www.volhard.com/pages/pat.php

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpkTq4nf7aM
Volhard puppy testing in Canada-that got a little silly. ... How to pick out a Puppy


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## texasred

Datacan
I know is seems we disagree a lot, but I don't think we do.
Offering different points is a good thing. We are having to go off of a owners explanation, without ever seeing the dog. If we were with the dog, we may have a different opinion than what we posted.
The more information that's out there, the better it is for the owner and the dog.

_The reason the dog offers alternate behaviors is because it is under stress or reached the limits of current comprehension or it's mind races ahead and begins to anticipate. Some of the softest dogs are so intelligent, they start to anticipate very early._

I understand this. Vizslas are thinking dogs. They will do this to when not under to much pressure. A puppy may try to jump and get a treat. It doesn't work, next he tries to bark because he wants the treat. It still doesn't work. Finally he sits. He gets praise and the treat. It doesn't take long for him to figure out what is the correct behavior is to get the treat. Will he still try the alternate behavior time to time? Sure he will, but it still leads to no treat. So he will try it less and less.
So yes you are right. Alternate behavior can be cause by stress, but it is also the learning process of a thinking dog.
Alternate behavior does not mean a dog is dominant.


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## MilesMom

Thanks everyone! We hope to see the litter at least 3 times and the breeder plans to do personality testing. I didn't mean to give the impression that miles is totally out of control. In actuality he's pretty good. No jumping, counter surfing, or destruction. Walks and runs well on leash now. The reason I'm asking so many questions a d have ordered an e collar is to work really hard these next 4 months on taking him from good to excellent score the puppy comes. I agree datacan our old trainer has offered all she has to give and we need to switch.


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## datacan

No disagreeing here.

I learned something, mainly that their mind is the most valuable tool at our disposal. Engage their mind and the dog will follow... problem is time is not always on our side.
We are really talking about time :-[ , more precisely, available time. 

I believe, the learning curve is steep,... but once we got through it, wonder how we can live without these dogs? 
Who needs to go to see movies any more, haven't seen one since Sam arrived. 
I calculated the boy grabs about 7.81% of my yearly income but always returns 100% of his.


Hey, I didn't know Ken is in the "great family dogs business", on the side. I would love to custom order one that comes with a remote on/off, makes great coffee and reads the headlines for me 8) 
Oh, and one that offers great customer service...as opposed to greeting them from behind


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## TAIsMom

HA ;D ;D ;D

The on/off switch would be a GREAT upgrade and I definitely need the coffee today! 

After I wrote yesterday Tai decided to keep me up literally ALL NIGHT LONG. He was having one of his "moments". From Midnight to 4AM he whined, barked and howled in his crate like he hasn't done since he got home. He really just wanted to be with me and wasn't getting his way. When I left for work he was sleeping peacefully ... :


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## texasred

The reason I mentioned Ken is due to the fact that he owns the only living stud that I know of with health clearances out of ET. The others would be AI breeding's.


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## dmak

*Re: Re: When will it be over?*



TAIsMom said:


> HA ;D ;D ;D
> 
> The on/off switch would be a GREAT upgrade and I definitely need the coffee today!
> 
> After I wrote yesterday Tai decided to keep me up literally ALL NIGHT LONG. He was having one of his "moments". From Midnight to 4AM he whined, barked and howled in his crate like he hasn't done since he got home. He really just wanted to be with me and wasn't getting his way. When I left for work he was sleeping peacefully ... :


Sounds like it's time for someone to move from the crate to under the covers in bed with you. You watch, within 3 months he'll be in bed with you.


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## TAIsMom

*Re: Re: When will it be over?*



dmak said:


> TAIsMom said:
> 
> 
> 
> HA ;D ;D ;D
> 
> The on/off switch would be a GREAT upgrade and I definitely need the coffee today!
> 
> After I wrote yesterday Tai decided to keep me up literally ALL NIGHT LONG. He was having one of his "moments". From Midnight to 4AM he whined, barked and howled in his crate like he hasn't done since he got home. He really just wanted to be with me and wasn't getting his way. When I left for work he was sleeping peacefully ... :
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like it's time for someone to move from the crate to under the covers in bed with you. You watch, within 3 months he'll be in bed with you.
> 
> Oh yeah, he sleeps so much better in bed! I'm such a pushover!!! ;D ;D ;D
Click to expand...


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