# Need advice on training retrieve-to-hand



## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

Either I'm not doing this right (missing something) or Daisy is just plain stupid and/or stubborn.

She loves to retrieve a tennis ball, or anything for that matter. She will do it all day long. But not to-hand - she drops it near me, which is pretty good, but I want her to put it in my hand.

So what I've been doing is ignoring the ball when she drops it and giving her a "Good" (it's my marker) and immediately throwing the ball when she puts it in my hand. Sometimes I'll say "No" as in "That's not right" when she drops it, to show that I've seen the ball, but I'm not going to throw it. When she drops it, I walk on and let her pick it up and bring it.

So she gets a big reward for doing it right (the ball is thrown) and no reward otherwise. Pure operand conditioning, right? She just doesn't get it. Today on our walk she must have dropped it hundreds of times and put it in my hand 10 times! The only thing that I can think of is to add a treat reward, but she loves the ball even more than treats. Worth a try, I suppose.

Oh, wait ... I just realized something: previously I had been inconsistent about my response. Sometimes/often/usually I would pick up the ball and throw it. Mostly when we were doing water retrieves so that she would get the exercise (if I waited for the ball in hand, there would be very few retrieves). So I guess that I have trained her to drop it and that has to be extinguished or replaced. Much harder.

So, I'm thinking that I could train for a new command, say "Hand", which would mean "put it in my hand". Train her for this independent of retrieve and then use it at the end of retrieve, just before she drops it.

Whattaya think?

Bob


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

The command I use is 'MINE' with a open hand - works on birds bumpers & toys- PIKE was easy - only treat he gets is when we go in the house - then BIG TOY FIND - PIKE finds his Kong - brings 2 kitchen - then MINE - it's to hand gets the treat put in it & were both happy - was easy 2 take the command 2 the field - now that we do UFTA trials - to hand no steps & time in the field ( as little as possible ) is how we win !!!!!


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

This was the one part of Scout's training I couldn't figure out. I finally caved and started doing force fetch. I found this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD82m-_DNt4 which teaches it much more gently than other ways I've read about. 

Scout has a good prey drive and natural retrieve, but like Daisy would drop it within a few steps of me. After working on the first two steps of this program I've seen great improvement. Now whenever she drops it when we're playing fetch I put her in a sit with a hand signal, pop the object back in her mouth, praise her while she holds it for 20 seconds or so, say give for her release, more praise, and then throw the object. I also mix up whether I throw the object (prey drive) or place the object (retrieve drive), but always make her wait for a release to fetch. All these rules don't stop her from enjoying herself, they just allow her to get in a more controlled mindset. 

Also think about your body language. Scout interpreted my hands coming near her mouth and eye contact as release. Without looking at her I'd bring my hands a little closer each repetition and pause for a few seconds until I could have my hands under her chin without her dropping. Then I brought eye contact and did the same thing with my hands. Now give is the only release. 

I don't think you need to buy a pinch collar or go through the whole program for games of fetch. Just work on teaching her to hold the object until released independent of the whole retrieve sequence. Once she's solid on that, bring it all together.


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

einspänner said:


> This was the one part of Scout's training I couldn't figure out. I finally caved and started doing force fetch. I found this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD82m-_DNt4 which teaches it much more gently than other ways I've read about.


That was very interesting. It was surprising that the dog has to be forced to take something in its mouth. I would have thought that if you hand something to a dog, it will take it. Maybe with a little encouragement. I guess that was because it's always something to eat that I hand them! I liked seeing all the V's there.



> ... Now whenever she drops it when we're playing fetch I put her in a sit with a hand signal, pop the object back in her mouth, praise her while she holds it for 20 seconds or so, say give for her release, more praise, and then throw the object. ...
> 
> Also think about your body language. Scout interpreted my hands coming near her mouth and eye contact as release. Without looking at her I'd bring my hands a little closer each repetition and pause for a few seconds until I could have my hands under her chin without her dropping. Then I brought eye contact and did the same thing with my hands. Now give is the only release.
> 
> I don't think you need to buy a pinch collar or go through the whole program for games of fetch. Just work on teaching her to hold the object until released independent of the whole retrieve sequence. Once she's solid on that, bring it all together.


That sounds good - I'm going to try it.

Thanks,
Bob


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

> It was surprising that the dog has to be forced to take something in its mouth.


Its just a first step in adding rules to the retrieve. Before this the dog decided if and when to put something in its mouth, and also decided when it would drop it.
With soft mouthed dogs I only do a command for the release, with hard mouth dogs, I add the Hold command. Meaning the dog is not to move its mouth once something is in it. I add the Hold command, once the dog starts getting a clear understanding of its not to release until told to. While telling the dog Hold, you tap them under the chin, you can change to tap over to the chest once they start to catch on.
All of that bending over and holding the bumper in your dogs mouth can get to your back. I like them up off the ground, even if they are just on a covered coffee table. What I like most about the video is it shows the dogs taking breaks from the pressure. I know Cash needed these breaks during this process.


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

einspänner said:


> ...
> Also think about your body language. Scout interpreted my hands coming near her mouth and eye contact as release. ...


I was walking them the other day & I remembered this. When she came up with the ball, I put my hands behind me & told her to sit. She did, without dropping the ball, then gave it to me! Didn't work every time, but it was a good tip. Thanks.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Glad something in my rambling was helpful!


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## MeandMy3 (Feb 27, 2013)

Great thread! Our first lab was great at retrieving to hand. Our second one, not so much. Every time she would bring you something, she'd nip you before she'd release the item. My husband and I were firm with her, but my dad - not so much. He felt like since she wasn't his dog, he shouldn't be so firm. He taught her drop, and she preferred dropping something vs. returning it to our hands. It took us months to get her to learn a new word. Now we use "give" for returning to our hands, and "drop" if we don't want something in our hands. Lots of work, but it can be done! 

Glad you're making progress, Bob. My bet is Daisy isn't dumb, she just does things her own way at her own pace.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I don't think Daisy is dumb either.
She was doing a very good job of training Bob to do it her way.
Changing the rules on a smart dog takes time, they will push to see if you give in.


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