# The Sofa battle. Is this aggression?



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

My 16 week pup has found a new 'game'. Now if he jumps on the sofa we give him an off command and he knows what it means as he used to to listen yet now ignores it. We try to lure him off with something(treat or toys) and then get him to sit and lay down on the floor. This no longer seems to work. So my only option to get him off the sofa is then to lift him off the sofa. When I do this he starts to bite. Not really hard yet but he is biting and using his teeth. Of course because they are puppy teeth they are scratching an breaking the skin. My question is, "Is the fact the he knows that he is biting when being told off a sign of aggression?" Or is he turning this into a game? I really am worried at how persistent he is being on this one and the fact that touching him results in biting. :-[


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Well, I doubt if a 16-week-old pup really has any concept of aggression. He is turning it into a game. To him, all of life is a fun game!! I know those puppy "needle teeth" really hurt (been there, done that). It sounds to me like he is playing with you much like he would play with his littermates. If you've ever watched a bunch of puppies playing together, you know how rough-and-tumble they can be! This, too, shall pass.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Don't think they have a concept of aggression or domination at 16 weeks. 
He tries to find his place in the pack, IMO. Our Sam protested everything, also. We corrected his behavior consistently and always, we placed him in the crate if we didn't have time for him. As you mentioned treats are effective up to a point. Personally, I don't like using any except his kibble. I could be considered cheap or dumb but, I wouldn't want the dog to treat me like a giant pez dispenser. He would disobey later anyway. 

Options, IMO:
1. I can upgrade the treats (help drive the economy out of recession also)
2. He got on the sofa, so I would push him off gently "OFF", consistently, every time. Now, he has to find something else to do so I need to redirect or just lure him into the crate. Problem is, this has to be done consistently.


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## Mrs_Mac (Mar 2, 2011)

Hi, 

We're having sofa related issues with Fez (18 weeks), from day one he's been on the sofa for cuddles but only after he has asked nicely. We use the sofa as a "treat" for compeleting a command eg sit, down etc. This has been working great but recently we've been having other behavioural issues mainly biting and leg humping. We spoke to our trainer at the weekend and she has strongly recommend we stop allowing him on the sofa as we need to reaffirm his place in our pack. She believes that he is trying to dominate us and although we can train him whilst allowing him on the sofa it will be quicker if we stop him. 

I have to say that it's probably harder for us than him as we all love our cuddles. it is only temporary and when he is clear about his position in the pack we will allow him back up. 

Our trainer was pretty clear that problems can and probably will happen when allowing puppies on the sofa. 

Re getting him off we don't have many problems but if he's being stubborn we'll push him down and using our legs as a barrier walk/push him over to his bed in the corner of the room. By using our legs and standing almost over him he realises there's no game to play. This also stops him being able to jump up. It didn't take long before he got the message. 

In all honesty we just want him up with us so we're hoping we don't have to keep this up for long.


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## laurita (Jun 12, 2011)

born36,
I would try preempting the behavior so that you give him a behavior to do when he looks like he's wanting to jump on the couch that's incompatible with jumping (such as laying down and treating). It'll be easier than luring him off the couch and sets him up to be successful. 

If he has already jumped, I try to mainly use positive reinforcement (in this case, I would suggest using a yummier treat that your dog hasn't tasted such as boiled chicken, sweet potato, or a little blue cheese & keep these in your high yield arsenal) and work on getting that off command down. I think he's using his teeth because it's the easiest way to get you to leave him alone. If you are opposed to using treats to do this (I am an advocate of treats for getting these concepts down. It makes it fun for both of us and they learn much faster IMO), then you could try a squirt bottle to get him off, but I don't think that incentivizes a dog to listen, it just annoys them!


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## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

born36: I agree with mswhipple. Probably the dog thinks it's the best game ever! They learn a new "game" about every other day.  You could also try teaching your dog to touch your hand with his nose--then you can use that to sort of "lead" your dog off of the sofa. Like datacan said, very doubtful it's aggression considering he's so young.



Mrs_Mac said:


> We spoke to our trainer at the weekend and she has strongly recommend we stop allowing him on the sofa as we need to reaffirm his place in our pack. She believes that he is trying to dominate us and although we can train him whilst allowing him on the sofa it will be quicker if we stop him.


I admit that I have very different ideas about dominance theory than a lot of people, and don't actually believe that things like letting dogs onto sofas/beds, letting them eat before you, or letting them out a door before you, result in a dog that thinks he "dominant" over his humans. For one, dominance theory was based on flawed wolf pack studies. Mind you, it almost always results in completely harmless displays by the human (the door thing, for example).  It's the overly aggressive alpha rolls and things of that nature that make me nervous. I would recommend reading more on social dominance theory and instigating more discussions about it with your trainer, if you already haven't. There's a paper attached to start you off! Lots of interesting reading out there. If you've already come to your own conclusions, however: to each their own as far as training goes, as long as nobody gets hurt! I'm not going to force anyone to adopt my training techniques, but I do like to make sure people educate themselves about dog behavior beyond what their vet or trainer says. Anyhow--what you were doing is what I would consider correct--using the sofa as a treat. You can use lots of things as a treat! Going out the door, getting his food bowl, getting petted, so on so forth.

As for the humping--how do you respond when he does it? Jasper tried it a few times with me--if I was sitting, I stood up and shook him off gently (did not push with my hands, just tried to remove my leg), and then I always walked away and ignored him for a while. He got the message pretty quickly that humping was very much a no-no, and has never attempted it since with any other human. I find that people usually get pretty excited when a dog humps them--lots of excited voices, pushing the dog off, etc. In other words--they reward the behavior. The few times Jasper humped, it was almost always preceded by overexcitement. I think when puppies get overexcited and don't know what to do with themselves, they end up getting nippy or humpy, hahaha.


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## laurita (Jun 12, 2011)

I hadn't really thought about it as a game, but now that I do think of it, I agree with that. I keep thinking of my pup (8 mos) vs yours (16 wks) and when I reflect upon 16 wks, EVERYTHING is a game! So so true. My puppy would attack my pants as I would walk and I was afraid that he was aggressive then. They definitely grow out of these things, thank goodness.

Great post, redrover. I agree with your training style and am looking forward to reading that paper. I was interested in a book that John Bradshaw wrote called Dog Sense. I espoused dominance theory when I first got my puppy, but then as I started reading more and reviewing more science and animal behavior in dogs, my beliefs slowly changed. For me, trying to be a benevolent leader who rewards polite behavior has really strengthened my relationship with my V.


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## sarahaf (Aug 17, 2009)

It could be a bit of resource guarding (common for all dogs in some form), and yes, that can turn into aggression. But all dogs are potentially aggressive, so even if you're seeing some aggression, it doesn't make your dog "bad" or an "aggressive dog" with a capital A. Rosie growls if we forcibly try to move her when she's on the bed. That's resource guarding, and it is aggression. But it's never gotten any worse. She doesn't do it with food or toys, only sleeping spots. I would try to avoid forcibly moving him, though, and triggering that reaction, and focus on making the alternative more attractive, as Laurita suggests. You want him to have a different response both emotionally and behaviorally (to actually LIKE obeying), and pushing him off the couch will keep strengthening the same response.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

born36 said:


> My 16 week pup has found a new 'game'. Now if he jumps on the sofa we give him an off command and he knows what it means as he used to to listen yet now ignores it. We try to lure him off with something(treat or toys) and then get him to sit and lay down on the floor. This no longer seems to work. So my only option to get him off the sofa is then to lift him off the sofa. When I do this he starts to bite. Not really hard yet but he is biting and using his teeth. Of course because they are puppy teeth they are scratching an breaking the skin. My question is, "Is the fact the he knows that he is biting when being told off a sign of aggression?" Or is he turning this into a game? I really am worried at how persistent he is being on this one and the fact that touching him results in biting. :-[


I disagree with the notion that you need to use a better treat.
I recommend claiming the couch as your own by simply moving toward the dog leaving him no where to go but off.
You don't say a word until he actually jumps down, then you mark the action with "off" as he's getting off.

Lifting him off doesn't have the same effect as him giving in and getting off. 

Puppies test their boundaries. 
It's up to you to prevent little things like this turning into aggressive behavior by showing them that you are their leader, not the other way around.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

It's not aggression until he growls, shows teeth, the hair is raised on his neck/back and bites. 
If U have that combination, it's better to give up fast because it turn into real aggression later. 
Impossible a Vizsla is that bad, IMO. I can't say the same about German Shepherds.

I agree with Misha (pretty courageous answer...no treats?)


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

datacan said:


> It's not aggression until he growls, shows teeth, the hair is raised on his neck/back and bites.
> If U have that combination, it's better to give up fast because it turn into real aggression later.
> Impossible a Vizsla is that bad, IMO. I can't say the same about German Shepherds.
> 
> I agree with Misha (pretty courageous answer...no treats?)


Well, it may not be as common, but V's certainly can be just as bad as Sheppards can, because they are both dogs. 


I believe the OPs case is a beginning stage of aggression, and treats can act as a reward for the unwanted behaviour, and make things just as bad as overly aggressive physical corrections. 

Timing is everything. 
Once he gets off the couch, lots of praise and treats are a good thing, but offering a dog that growls or bites you a treat as a lure, is rewarding a dog for growling or biting, and basically giving-in on a primal level. 


I'm not trying to pretend that I have all of the answers. I just think it's a wise choice to err on the side of caution and nip the behaviour in the bud rather than hoping it's a game that the dog tires of.


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## sarahaf (Aug 17, 2009)

Those who are advocating against use of treats--what is your rationale? I am not at all recommending you offer a treat while the dog is growling or biting. Precisely the opposite. If pushing the dog off the couch is what is triggering the biting, then don't do that. Otherwise, you are strengthening the dog's defensive reaction (whenever he approaches, I get pushed off--next time, I'm going to get even more defensive). Offer a treat as a lure BEFORE the dog reacts badly. Let him associate getting off the couch with a positive emotion (I do the right thing, something good happens. Next time he tells me to get off, I'm going to get off even faster).


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Why treats are used at all to reinforce a behavior?
After all we feed the dog 2 or 3 times/day, provide water, shelter and protection.
What other basic needs do animals have?

Dogs don't have pockets full of treats when interacting with us. Yet, they condition us although, we refuse to admit it.

Consider reinforcing (I refer to an adolescent puppy) a command without any treats, without voice and without violent corrections. Gently guiding the dog into the desired position every time. I guarantee it will be backbreaking work. Who needs that?
Mostly those who depend on their dog.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

Born36

Unless I'm missing something, you're unintentionally giving your dog mixed signals.
Is it that you want him to get off the couch when commanded, or not be on the couch at all?
If it's the former, the behavior will have to be trained using both positive and negative reinforcement.
If it's the latter, I'm sorry, but you must forcefully, but gently, remove him from that couch, and put him on the floor. If he gets up again, it's in the crate. If he puts his teeth on you, it's in the crate. The teeth problem only gets worse, if it's allowed to start. Make sure he understands that teeth, aren't an option.
No games, no treats, no nice voice, no pleading, or cajoling. Walk over, grab him, and get him off that couch. A sharp "NO!", and be done with it.
Dominance behavior, not aggression, in dogs starts at about 8-9 weeks. At 16 weeks he will certainly be starting to assert himself in small ways. Depending on what you intend for the dog to do, will have a bearing on how much you let him get away with.
I'm not a firm believer in the "Establish the Alpha" philosophies, but my dogs know whom is in charge. Your puppy needs a little reminder. A firm but gentle one though. 
I'm also in the no treats camp. My rationale being that the dogs don't get to decide an action for themselves based on a food reward. They just do it because they were asked. In the field, hunting them, this makes for easier and more positive control. 
All the training and conditioning for my dogs is very purpose oriented, with specific end goals. To safely hunt them under control.


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the advice. We are now keeping Mac off the sofa by using compressed air. I also like the idea about moving into him until he gets off. I will stay out of the treat non treat debate. Will use this post as a reference again if we are having trouble keeping him off the sofa.


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## laurita (Jun 12, 2011)

Naturally there are going to be many opinions on how to achieve the same goal. I agree that using ill-timed treats serve as a lure, but a well-timed reinforcement (treat, toy, clicker, etc) is a powerful tool for changing the emotional state of an animal towards a behavior or person (I use them to get my dog to like my dad, ha!). Using reinforcements to train marine mammals to perform in front of large crowds is just one example. I want to clarify that I'm not suggesting that you use a treat once a dog is growling or showing aggression. I am suggesting that you use reinforcement to shape the behavior that you want as well as to keep an animal's emotional arousal under a certain threshold. Once the dog realizes that when he/she chooses the right behavior, something good comes from it, doing that behavior can lead to a positive emotion. 

An example- I dealt with resource guarding the same week that I purchased my puppy. I had already read a lot about being a good pack leader, giving nothing for free, establishing clear rules, prevention against food aggression, so I was pretty disheartened when my 11 week old growled at me over a bone, later over a frisbee, and then over turkey. I thought that if you were a leader, a puppy would know his/her place. I opened my mind beyond the hierarchy thing and began using some yummy treats and tossing them when my puppy was around high valued items while keeping his arousal under threshold (no growling and I didn't get try to pick up the items). After some time, I'd get really close to the item (still no growling and treating), and once I felt comfortable, I'd touch the item and treat him (no growling). I was changing his emotional state that me being near the item was threatening. I can now grab anything that I want and he doesn't flinch. I've used treats to teach all sorts of polite behaviors-- laying down when people come to the door, leaving a food item that drops while I'm cooking, etc, and yes, I could probably arrive at the same goal by punishing my dog when he doesn't do the behavior that I want, but why?


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## sarahaf (Aug 17, 2009)

Agreed, Laurita. I guess where I'm coming from (and forgive my frustration earlier) is that operant conditioning and learning theory are used across the animal kingdom with great success. I may not be the best at implementing these techniques, so maybe I'm not a good advertisement for them--but advanced level animal behaviorists prefer these techniques because of the very extensive research basis supporting their effectiveness, and use of operant conditioning (and classical conditioning) with animals does involve at some point using reinforcers (like treats). I guess it's frustrating for me to see people reject out of hand the techniques that most serious animal behaviorists prefer. Why? Do TV trainers, your neighbor, or your breeder know better how to shape animal behavior than doctoral level professionals in the field?

I like Jean Donaldson's analogy about aeronautics engineering. When push comes to shove, you vote with your feet for professionals who use techniques with a solid scientific basis. http://www.jeandonaldson.com/jeans-blog-mainmenu-51/53-post-modern-dog-training


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

sarahaf said:


> I guess it's frustrating for me to see people reject out of hand the techniques that most serious animal behaviorists prefer. Why? Do TV trainers, your neighbor, or your breeder know better how to shape animal behavior than doctoral level professionals in the field?


I like reading your posts because they force me to open my mind to alternatives, and believe it or not, you have changed my mind about just how assertive I need to be with my dog. I strongly believe that balance is the key. Whether they deserve affection, treats or a face to face scolding.
We all love our dogs, and only want what is best for them. 

To be perfectly honest, it's hard to take advise from you when you mention that your dog growls at you for waking her up, and needs a sedative for halloween.

If the techniques you recommend don't work for you, why does it frustrate you that every member here doesn't agree that positive reinforcement is the go-to solution for every issue?
Your dog may respond well to the techniques you dispute.


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## sarahaf (Aug 17, 2009)

To be perfectly honest, it's hard to take advise from you when you mention that your dog growls at you for waking her up, and needs a sedative for halloween.
[/quote]

Then don't take the advice from me. Take it from all of the major national and international professional organizations of animal behaviorists and veterinary behavior professionals. Let's not make this personal.

Edit: To talk about the human side, I guess I have gotten defensive during this discussion--when someone disagrees, it can feel personal. I wonder if my comments have also come across in a way that would tend to put others on the defensive. I think that's likely, and I apologize if the manner in which I expressed myself tended to be that way. The last comment I received DID contain a personal comment about Rosie's behavior issues, and I'm afraid I got baited into responding to that.

No, I'm not perfect myself and I don't have a perfect dog. Yes, I want to defend IDEAS that I think have a solid research basis, but when I do this, I don't mean to criticize anyone else's handling of their dog. Strangely, I actually don't feel critical of others when I write these comments, even if it sounds that way--ironically, it's more that I feel (I think irrationally) criticized myself and consequently, I get defensive of my ideas, if that makes any sense.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

sarahaf said:


> Then don't take the advice from me. Take it from all of the major national and international professional organizations of animal behaviorists and veterinary behavior professionals. Let's not make this personal.
> 
> Edit: To talk about the human side, I guess I have gotten defensive during this discussion--when someone disagrees, it can feel personal. I wonder if my comments have also come across in a way that would tend to put others on the defensive. I think that's likely, and I apologize if the manner in which I expressed myself tended to be that way. The last comment I received DID contain a personal comment about Rosie's behavior issues, and I'm afraid I got baited into responding to that.
> 
> No, I'm not perfect myself and I don't have a perfect dog. Yes, I want to defend IDEAS that I think have a solid research basis, but when I do this, I don't mean to criticize anyone else's handling of their dog. Strangely, I actually don't feel critical of others when I write these comments, even if it sounds that way--ironically, it's more that I feel (I think irrationally) criticized myself and consequently, I get defensive of my ideas, if that makes any sense.



I wasn't trying to bait you into anything. We're having a discussion and that is a childish remark.
I don't see how I made it any more personal when we are all talking about how we raise our dogs and the techniques we use.
You specifically asked why people discount the methods you use, and I told you why I do.

If my comment upset you, I apologize for that. I wasn't frustrated, upset or defensive when I responded.
I openly admit that I don't know everything there is to know about dog behaviour, and complimented you by saying that you have given me alternatives. 

My intention was for you to look at why I choose to discipline my dog without rewards, and praise with affection and/or food when she pleases me.

Whether or not you care to absorb other peoples methods is your choice. We all do what we feel is best for our dogs.


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## sarahaf (Aug 17, 2009)

What is a childish remark? You think it wasn't provocative of you to comment on my dog's behavior, digressing completely from the discussion of the rationale for various training methods? Honestly, would you find it provocative if we were discussing these ideas and I found comments you'd made about your dog's behavior issues and used them to discredit what you were trying to say? To me, that's like if we were discussing ideas in cardiology, and someone said, "well, the reason I don't use those methods is that one cardiologist who advocates them had a heart attack himself."

In calling me childish, you seem to have completely missed the thrust of my edit, which was trying to be mature and look at how all of us might get sucked into unproductive arguments out of defensiveness. Do children look at their own motives and acknowledge their own human shortcomings in this way? I don't think so.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

sarahaf said:


> What is a childish remark? You think it wasn't provocative of you to comment on my dog's behavior, digressing completely from the discussion of the rationale for various training methods? Honestly, would you find it provocative if we were discussing these ideas and I found comments you'd made about your dog's behavior issues and used them to discredit what you were trying to say?
> 
> In calling me childish, you seem to have completely missed the thrust of my edit, which was trying to be mature and look at how all of us might get sucked into unproductive arguments out of defensiveness. Do children look at their own motives and acknowledge their own human shortcomings in this way? I don't think so.


Ok now you're getting really angry and this ridiculous. 
If you can't handle criticism, don't belittle others.


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## sarahaf (Aug 17, 2009)

I agree, it is ridiculous. What did I just say that was belittling? You just called me childish. If that isn't belittling, I'm not sure what is.

The one mistake I made was in trying to be constructive by acknowledging that defensiveness might have been a factor in continuing the debate although I'm not sure it was always productive. Many people would respond by saying, "yeah, we can all get defensive." Instead, you chose to twist what I said into, "you can't handle criticism."


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## sarahaf (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm not sure quite how we got there, but I know I had a part in it. I just want to say, if I've been disrespectful or unreasonable, I apologize. It hasn't been the best week. Sometimes the post button is not our friend at such times...


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