# Concern regarding breeder/broker?



## Lkmkgus (Feb 24, 2015)

Hi all, new here. I've been lurking on the forums for quite a long time, learning what I can about Vizslas. 

We are currently in the process of researching breeders in the Midwest in the hopes of bringing a Vizsla into our home within the next 6-8 months. We recently spoke with a very enthusiastic and knowledgeable fellow who has puppies available very soon. My concern is the following:

He owns a kennel and has a lot of experience training the breed, however, he is not the owner of the dame or the sire. The sire is easy to research and has a great pedigree. The dame's pedigree is available online but I cannot find her breeder or owner listed. 

He talks a great talk and has adequately answered all of my questions, pups are full registration, hips certified, seller is familiar with both the dame and sire and he has trained the dame. I am hesitant because I have not come across a third party broker in my other areas of searching and have found little in the way of online reviews of him. Am I right to be a little leery or is this a common practice?

Temperament is of utmost importance to us as we have had the devastating experience of bringing a puppy (sporting breed) into our home (without adequately researching bloodlines) whose anxiety and reactionary aggression significantly increased over time. We worked with trainers and a veterinary behaviorist over a period of 2 years with little improvement despite training and medication. In the end (and following several bite incidents) he was no longer safe to have around people or other dogs and we made the heartbreaking decision to have him euthanized. We have been traumatized by the experience and are doing thorough research into bloodlines and early socialization before we bring a puppy back into our home. 

Please let me know if I am over-reacting based on our prior experiences or if the little warning bells in my head are correct. Appreciative of any input/advice from people who are knowledgable in this area.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Warning bells are great. Listen to them. This is one of those areas I could improve myself, but certainly the best way to get answers to your questions is to ask. Want to know about the dam's breeder and owner? Ask. Curious about the unusual circumstances surrounding this pairing? Ask. If he isn't forthcoming with a suitable answer, seems annoyed, or you just don't like the answer then you can move on. You're doing your homework and a reputable breeder will respect that. There were many questions I didn't ask because I didn't want to seem needy or unknowledgeable, but I now realize my breeder would have been happy to answer them. Express your concerns and see how he handles them. They sound completely reasonable to me.

Will you have an opportunity to meet both dogs? Considering your heartbreak with your last puppy (so sorry to hear that!) I would want to meet the parents in person to evaluate temperament. 

I'd offer to look into the lines myself, but I'm more familiar with wirehaired vizslas. Perhaps someone else will make the same offer. Another good option would be to contact the breeder referral person at your state or regional vizsla club.


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## riley455 (Aug 27, 2011)

I think it's odd that owners of either the sire or dam are not available. Did he say why the puppies are being sold through him and not directly by the owners?


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

I would run, not walk away from this "broker."

Find someone who is passionate about the breed and at least owns the dam themselves. Find a hobby breeder, not a backyard breeder. You will see the difference in their PASSION for vizslas. They will want to know everything about you and be selective. Be prepared to wait a year or even two for a litter.

If you do these things, you'll be rewarded with a well bred vizsla that will be your best friend for potentially 15 years.

Just because a dog comes from well known lines doesn't mean it is a well bred dog.

Good luck


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## Rbka (Apr 21, 2014)

We got grilled on our quest to own a v. The passion and concern of the breeders was apparent from day 1.

We phoned 4-5 breeders in our region one day and had phone interviews with all of them. The next day one phoned back saying they had been in communication about us and that we were basically worthy of the breed and would be notified when the next litter was available. We were in touch frequently thereafter to discuss the dogs. 

In the end their concern about us being apt owners and their transparency about bloodlines (all documented openly online) made us very comfortable. We met the dam (but not the sire) and her father (Nico's grandad) and got to spend time with them too.

All in all you're not just getting a puppy - you're getting the experience of dealing with the breeder too!


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Shoot me a PM if you like. I may know of the "breeder" and may be able to help you out a bit with the pedigrees.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

einspänner said:


> Warning bells are great. Listen to them. This is one of those areas I could improve myself, but certainly the best way to get answers to your questions is to ask.


Well said!



Lkmkgus said:


> He owns a kennel and has a lot of experience training the breed, however, he is not the owner of the dame or the sire. The sire is easy to research and has a great pedigree. The dame's pedigree is available online but I cannot find her breeder or owner listed.
> 
> He talks a great talk and has adequately answered all of my questions, pups are full registration, hips certified, seller is familiar with both the dame and sire and he has trained the dame.


Be careful. I've not encountered many third party breeders either. We got our V from a breeder that didn't give me any red flags except that he let them go at 7 weeks (hips were checked, interviewed, AKC, health guarantee, contract, great kennel conditions, etc.). The pedigrees of both parents were also online. I recognized some of the sire's lines (Onpoint) and the dam was just a bunch of Rebel Rousers (which I can't tell apart). Being a Vizsla newbie, no red flags there. However, later I did more research into the lines and a name of the dam's breeder jumped out. It was the name of an owner of a puppy mill. So even though I had a good experience with our breeder, it really made me question their practices. I wouldn't use them again knowing what I know now.



organicthoughts said:


> Just because a dog comes from well known lines doesn't mean it is a well bred dog.


Exactly.


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## mommaofalot (Apr 10, 2014)

Maybe he trains their dogs in return for sale of pups? Have you asked about why he is selling them and not the owner? Maybe ask to speak to the breeder of the female. In my opinion if you have red flags on this why not just look somewhere else. I don't know just seems kind of fishy to me but who knows.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I think you need more information...
Is this person a broker, or is he helping out the owner of the female that he trained, as in being a mentor. For all we know he may have helped the owner find a compatible stud.
People that train and campaign these dogs will have a lot of knowledge of different bloodlines that they see first hand in the field, and at training.
Not uncommon for them to advertise a stud that's available on their kennels website, but they don't own the stud, they did however train and campaign the dog. 
If he has been training this breed for years, other breeders should know who he is. If he is good at training this breed, you local vizsla club should have heard of him. They also hear who is bad if he has been doing it a while, Your local vizsla rescues also know who some of the not so good breeders are, as they get dogs in that have problems, or were placed in the wrong homes.
While I wouldn't run because he doesn't own either dog, I would sure find out more before making a decision. 
A litter that I just drooled over last year was shown on a trainers/breeders website. Neither the bitch or shire was owned by the kennel, but she was out of one of their dogs.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

It is not unusual for a trainer to handle the breeding and/or placement of a litter. We have done it in the past with dogs we have trained and/or handled in competition. We have helped with dogs from our breeding that were sold and aided in the choice of stud, testing of the pups and handled placement selection and placements of pups for the owners. Generally it is as TexRed stated and in a lot of cases you are probably looking at a very selective breeding choice by someone who actually knows the dogs, not the titles. 

That said, the best thing you can do is ask the trainer why they are handling it. Conjecture and opinion seeking on the forum regarding a specific situation leads to all kinds of random thoughts and ideas, 99% of which likely have nothing to do with the real answer - which 1% is right?


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

as Joe Friday on Dragnet said - the Facts Mam - nothing but the Facts - so true on this forum & all the others - you get a single frame from what should V a video - thats just life - the best answer 2 ?s about a breeder - IS HOW DO I ask the RIGHT ?'s - How WHEN & WHY ! - me just as guiltiy - when the facts come out - may V not guilty as charged - or they may V not - looking 4 the right PUP - takes a lot of work - this forum is not a short CUT - just POINTS YOU in the right direction !


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## riley455 (Aug 27, 2011)

Whether you're getting the puppy from a broker or owner/breeder make sure you find out who is going to offer the lifetime support.


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