# Occasional Aggression towards other dogs



## Stevie D (May 22, 2020)

Hello all, really appreciate some advice. Twix is not our first V, and we've had many bigger dogs, but he's proving to be one of the most challenging because of his unpredictability. I'll give the background and apologies in advance for the length, but I think to understand why a dog is acting a certain way you have to understand their surroundings and experiences. 

Twix is 20 months old now and we got him just before COVID. From the beginning he's been a fantastic dog, although he's a big, strong V, both physically and, lately, in his mannerisms. From a puppy, he displayed a normal velcro V temperament: huge energy, lots of love and the normal shark attacks. I've been working from home his entire life, the my wife and kids are always around (two girls, 7 and 12) and we have a 17 year old husky as well. From the onset, Twix has annoyed Emma, which turned into the occasional dominant activities at around a year (standing in front of her, cutting her off, bumping into her), but nothing really aggressive or frequent. We have cats as well and no issues there. We have been playing and working with him since day 1, and he's responded great. He was crated at night (not any more), and still for a couple of hours during the day just to get him used to some time away from us each day so that he doesn't develop separation anxiety when we're back to work and the kids are in school.

We have forest trails on our door step and he's been walked off-leash 3x a day since a pup, with more infrequent leash walks. Because he's so wired, he's the first dog that we've trained with an e-collar (paired with treats and clicker training for positive reinforcement). We've got a Dogtra with vibrate and stimulation function, which we started using at about 6 months. What I did was give him his "ready" command to look at me and if he didn't respond I gave him a vibration stimulation. If still no response, I would give him a very low level "nick" (18/120 setting as a pup, 27/120 now) to get his attention. Once I had his attention, I would then give him the "sit, down, off, release, etc" command follow by positive reinforcement (click and treat). We've only focused on the basic commands but he got them right away and, while he still wears his collar when out, there's only the need to give him a vibrate occasionally to get his attention. The click, treats and nicks are all gone at this point.

To the issues that have started. Most mornings, we're joined on our forest walks by a bunch of large or small dogs. From the onset, Twix was the goofy guy that got along with all with never a hint of dominance or issues. At about 14 months, we were on a walk with the group of the day and ran into a young intact Weimaraner that he'd played with before but hadn't seen in a few months. He ran up to greet Arlo and Arlo's hackles went up immediately and he went into an aggressive stance. Twix stopped short, walked up cautiously, but now with his hackles up and Arlo attacked. There was a brief altercation but we were able to separate the two dogs with no damage. All seemed fine after we reintroduced the dogs, but Arlo then proceeded to "take over the pack". There was another young, intact Lab and Arlo started mounting him (with his owner doing nothing I might add) and for the remainder of the walk, Twix and Buddy (lab) hung back while Arlo ran with the females up front. Ever since, every time we meet Arlo, Twix is submissive and goes off on his own.

At about 18 months Twix came across a young, intact King Shepherd that he'd played with regularly as a pup. Once again, he was very friendly, running up to Simba and licking his mouth. Simba gave him a low, warning growl and Twix's temperament changed right away, with hackles going up and standing upright blocking Simba's path which provoked him. Simba attacked and once again, there was a violent altercation with Twix ending up with a puncture on the neck and a gash on his ribs. Both required stitches and he was on leash walk for a couple of weeks. We took the opportunity to neuter Twix (part of our breeder contract obligations).

Since that time, Twix has been pretty good off leash but once in a blue moon a young puppy will come up to him with a lot of energy and he'll immediately "put the dog in its place". The challenge is that it's 1 dog out of 50 that triggers him when he's off leash and I can't predict which dog it is. On leash is a different story. We went to a dog beach recently and he was fantastic off leash in the water, swimming and retrieving a ball for hours, interacting well with every dog that came near him. Leashed on the beach was a different story. He'd give a low growl and strain to get at I'd say 50% of the dogs that passed by.

I should also mention that one of the big dogs that Twix walks with frequently is a neutered male that displays a lot of dominance and is put on leash instantly by his owner around pups or young, intact males because he'll go after them immediately.

Twix is a fantastic dog and has no issues 99.9% time, but we need to get a grip on these occasional aggression issues. Clearly more on-leash walks and interactions are needed and we're going to work with a professional, but I thought I'd post to see if anyone else had similar experiences. Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for your thoughts and suggestions.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

The brutal, honest, truth, is that you can never predict how two dogs will interact. Neutered or not.
Dogs don't have to be buddies with every other dog. It's nice to have the "get along dog", but that is not often the case.
Most dogs are in the middle. You've also encountered some very irresponsible owners that have poorly trained dogs. 
If, as an owner, a person knows that they have a dog prone to confrontation. They need to have control of that animal.
My first Vizsla could be brutal with other dogs. He didn't just "attack". He flat out took them off their feet and was relentless in his harassment until he had them pinned to the ground unable to get up. It was awful to watch. However, I never let him get away with it. 
One of my other V's was at the other end of the spectrum. He wanted to be buddies with everybody and really didn't understand another dog being aggressive with him. Another was in the middle. He didn't look for trouble, but he didn't back down either.
Don't put the burden of responsibility on on your dog, or take it upon yourself. If your dog is under control and not the aggressor in the situation, there really isn't a lot you can do, other than to remember which dogs you encounter have lazy owners, and avoid them. when possible. The Weimaraner owner is a complete jackass to let his dog mount other dogs and not correct him. Stay away from them.
I wish there was another way.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Dogs read each other’s body language, better than we will ever be able too. Makes it very hard for us to know why they don’t like some dogs, when we can’t always see the common denominator.

like gunnr said, they don’t have to like every dog.
It’s not like we want to hangout with every person we meet. So why are we holding our dogs to a higher standard. I’m not saying they should be able to fight every dog they don’t like, but they should not be expected to play with them.

Sometimes people confuse socialization, with thinking their dog should interact with every dog/person they meet. Socialization is getting a dog not reacting to things in their surroundings.

Shine has always had awful skills, when it comes to meeting new dogs. She runs right up to their face, and wants to greet them. Most dogs want to do a little sniffing first, and decide if they want to be friends, or go their separate ways.
I don’t ever worry about her trying to start a fight. I only worry about a dog that will over correct her for bad manners. It’s more a of let the punishment fit the crime.
Then I have Hunter, that does not like in your face dogs. He will tolerate it a little bit, but will correct a dog if they don’t get the hint. It took him and Shine a little while to work it out, and he needed breaks from her. If he is tired, I still give him breaks from the little pest.
Jasper is just a very submissive sweetheart. Plays a little bit with other dogs, but mainly like to melt in your lap.


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## Stevie D (May 22, 2020)

Thanks Gunnr/Tex, appreciate and agree with all that you've said and shared about your guys. I think that my biggest concern (and the reason for my novel above) is how Twix's behaviour is changing as he's matured, but I suppose that could just be a function of him now being the bigger, stronger dog.


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## Dan_A (Jan 19, 2021)

I'm no pro here, but will offer what I interpret. 

From your story it doesn't sound like Twix has aggression issues. It seems he is trying to learn how to deal with other dominant and perhaps aggressive dogs. Seems he was thrown off guard by the W and got into his first fight. Perhaps he has taken that experience and figured anytime a dog acts that way with him like the king shep did again, that its "go time". He may never be the instigator, but how he reacts when confronted with another dog that doesn't want him around is another story. He may learn to decide the fight is not worth it and go do something else more fun, or he may never want to back down from a challenge again. If its the latter all that can really be done is to avoid overly-dominant dogs that set him off while off-leash. For unknown dogs, it may be that you would need to leash up and monitor the initial interaction and greeting before both owners decide to un-hook for play.

As for him correcting over-rambunctious puppies, that sounds pretty normal and most any puppy owner worth their salt will identify that correction and not consider it "aggression". The leash aggression is another thing and would need to be worked on. If he is acting out at other dogs where he was just fine with off leash, that should be addressed as it is a function of being on leash. When on leash he should understand that you are in control of the situation and he is not to be communicating in an aggressive manner on your behalf. He needs to learn on leash that you guide the interactions and tone.


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## Stevie D (May 22, 2020)

Dan_A said:


> I'm no pro here, but will offer what I interpret.
> 
> From your story it doesn't sound like Twix has aggression issues. It seems he is trying to learn how to deal with other dominant and perhaps aggressive dogs. Seems he was thrown off guard by the W and got into his first fight. Perhaps he has taken that experience and figured anytime a dog acts that way with him like the king shep did again, that its "go time". He may never be the instigator, but how he reacts when confronted with another dog that doesn't want him around is another story. He may learn to decide the fight is not worth it and go do something else more fun, or he may never want to back down from a challenge again. If its the latter all that can really be done is to avoid overly-dominant dogs that set him off while off-leash. For unknown dogs, it may be that you would need to leash up and monitor the initial interaction and greeting before both owners decide to un-hook for play.
> 
> As for him correcting over-rambunctious puppies, that sounds pretty normal and most any puppy owner worth their salt will identify that correction and not consider it "aggression". The leash aggression is another thing and would need to be worked on. If he is acting out at other dogs where he was just fine with off leash, that should be addressed as it is a function of being on leash. When on leash he should understand that you are in control of the situation and he is not to be communicating in an aggressive manner on your behalf. He needs to learn on leash that you guide the interactions and tone.


Thanks Dan, I'm no pro either, but your take sounds right to me. It's a good observation that Twix isn't the instigator, and if he's got his ball, he's even more distracted and could care less about other dogs. Ironically, you've got to watch most dogs if they've got a toy or a ball, not with him. He at no point will get aggressive to do with his ball. If another dog happens to steal it from his feet, he'll just follow them around until they drop it.

Once again, all this when off leash. On leash, he definitely goes on the offensive and more so lately. We've definitely got to work on that as it's clearly a trigger for him.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

As his hormone levels settle out, you're going to find the "new norm". But, and this is a big one, don't expect him to not display dominating traits, or automatically relegate himself to the Beta in every situation. It just won't happen. Spaying females isn't a guarantee either. Gunnr was spayed and believe me, it did nothing to quiet her down. She didn't have a "back down" mode.
As for the leash. On the leash he is "in a box". The length of the leash dictates his ability to react, and diminishes his ability to communicate and respond. Pressure and yield are fundamental methods of communication with all pack and herd animals. If he can't yield to the pressure being applied, he will put himself in a position where the pressure is too great and he is forced to react.
If you would like to test this and see how it works, the next time he is outside and lying about, or just wandering about, you remain absolutely motionless and stare directly at his eyes. No emotion at all and watch his behavior. It won't take long. Then do the same thing and stare at his hind quarters and you'll get a different response. He knows, and can see, exactly what portion of his body you are looking at, or applying pressure to, and will respond. He'll either come into the pressure hackles raised, or he'll yield to the pressure,a nd come in with his tail wagging. He may also move off to establish a buffer. A horse works exactly the same way. The most docile horse, or the most biddable dog, can, and will, react to pressure with negative consequences given the right conditions. Add in a leash for the dog, or a lead line for the horse, and things can go south very quickly. All of the pressure is in a "small box." 
You will have a different dog in time, just work with him and get him through everything, and see where you end up. I think you'll be fine in short order.


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## Dan_A (Jan 19, 2021)

I'm going to try the pressure staring game with Ellie @gunnr . It is fascinating how dogs can read our body language, they are much better at it than we are at reading them many times. One game I like to play is to stop on my walk with her, and stare off into the distance, take a deep obvious breath , and hold it. Almost always Ellie and most any other dog will look in that direction and also hold their breath at the same time.


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## Stevie D (May 22, 2020)

Thans Gunnr, appreciate everyone taking the time to provide their thoughts and feedback. Dogs truly are incredible and my observation is that Vs are even more sensitive and attentive than most. They're definitely a breed apart! Like Dan, am going to try that pressure game.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

It is fun to learn about their behaviors and helps you understand why the do, or don't do something.
They can be disobeying, make no mistake about that, but having a better understanding of the "the why", can sometimes make it easier to move forward with them.
A word of caution about the game is to not over do it.
I was "experimenting" with the technique many years ago with a horse in it's stall, and he ended up charging the stall door, ears pinned back, head low,teeth bared, and starting kicking out at the stall door. He was very upset! It took me maybe 45 minutes to calm him back down. He was pretty angry with me that day, and this is a very biddable horse that a small child could lead safely from the barn to the paddock.
I haven't repeated that "trick" since that day. It was stupid of me to do it without fully understanding the effect.


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## Dan_A (Jan 19, 2021)

OK so wait, by trying this trick we may be flipping on some kind of latent psycho V attack mode ?! Maybe i'll pass  😁


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## Stevie D (May 22, 2020)

You've definitely given me something to think about. In fact, I changed my approach to a situation that happened today. On our normal walk through the forest trails Twix was chasing sticks, found a ball and was his care-free happy go lucky self. We came across two different guys that we know walking their dogs and I stopped to chat, with Twix doing his own thing milling about us. At one point, 3 older people appeared walking a small dog. They stopped, though, a long way off. Twix did a couple of low huffs as if to alert me, but was fixated on them and started with a low growl. He became very agitated, best I could tell just because he didn't recognize them and they weren't moving! I bent down and calmed him down, but he was still spooked when they finally started up again and walked past us. The old guy of the group, seeing that Twix was nervous, actually leaned over offering Twix the back of his hand to sniff but he jumped back and barked.

Like I said, no idea why he was that uncomfortable in this really nonthreatening situation. He was in a comfortable environment, he's been nothing but normal all week and prior to that on the walk, and there was nothing unusual about that group. But, recognizing that he was uncomfortable, I tried to comfort him rather than a stern word or correction. It's such a fine line, though, because I don't want to encourage the growl but at the same time recognize it's his way of communicating! Like you guys have said, he's a young guy that's still maturing and I've got to help him figure out what actions are appropriate for what situation. We'll get there!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

@gunnr 
Do you ever watch Steve Young horsemanship?


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

Dan_A said:


> OK so wait, by trying this trick we may be flipping on some kind of latent psycho V attack mode ?! Maybe i'll pass  😁


No, absolutely not. What you would observe is how the dog reacts to non verbal stimuli. You will see the traits of how your dog reacts to pressure. You're not trying to make him neurotic, just gain an understanding.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

texasred said:


> @gunnr
> Do you ever watch Steve Young horsemanship?


No, I don't think I ever have. I have heard of him though. I've always liked Craig Cameron and Leslie Desmond. It's a more natural philosophy, but not quite the Parelli school. I think Leslie studied with the Dorrance's. I like Julie Goodnights approach also.
We picked up a three year old out of the Seattle Slew line off the tracks many years ago, and he was some kind of messed up.
He was in so much pain and discomfort when we got him,that he was kind of a hazard. He was nerve wracking to be in a box stall with. He had zero ground manners and would just walk right through a person.
A year or so of accupuncture, chiro work, developing a pain management diet, an extra 150lbs. and just working with him and he developed into to a very nice horse.
Once he had his feet back under him we put him in a pasture with two mares and a dominant gelding and they taught him how to speak horse. Then it was back under saddle for light dressage work. He's the horse in the example I wrote about. I really messed up that day and set his training back probably three or four months.
Now though, he's fine. When they hire new barn help, they're assigned to him because he has the best ground manners. If you can't handle him, taking care of horses might not be the job for you.
I've always liked working with animals. It's never been about making them do something, that's easy enough to do. It's about trying to understand why they're not doing what you want them to do and fixing the underlying problem. It's slower, but that's okay with me.
The other Boy:


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## alfie's mum (Jun 18, 2020)

Hi @Stevie D - so interesting, your story about your V could have been written by me. Even more of a coincidence that the dog he has issues with is called Arlo! Our boy has developed almost identically to yours in that as a pup he wanted to interact with every single other dog we ever encountered, never a single issue. At about 10-12 months he started exhibiting aggressive behaviour towards certain dogs, which we've identified as almost always intact males. It got really bad for a few months to the point I no longer could deal with the stress of taking him to the dog beach as he was hard to predict and it was extremely stressful. Thankfully he has never done any actual damage to another dog, but as we know Vs can look and sound pretty intense and other dog owners did not really appreciate his behaviour. Happy to say that in the last few months these negative interactions have really calmed down, to the point where it very rarely happens and when it does, he doesn't react nearly as much as he used to and often even becomes submissive or runs away. At 18 months, we have still not desexed our boy due to the recommendation from our vet, he had a terrible liver toxicity a few month back and she wants to make sure his liver is fully recovered before he goes under anaesthetic, but we plan to as soon as he is healthy enough. Interested to know if you saw any changes after your boy was desexed? Oh and ours also growls and gets super staunch with other dogs who are on a lead themselves, and occasionally when he is on a lead. Sounds like from what @gunnr and @texasred advised we have some work to do on that. He is still terrible on a lead so I think probably time to do some more training - any suggestions for online courses and info very much appreciated as we just entered lockdown here in Australia.


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## Dan_A (Jan 19, 2021)

It appears that dogs named Arlo are just up to no good!!!


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