# Crazy Running Vizsla



## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Hello everyone,

I'm new at this wonderful forum and after a good while of lurking, decided to join in. 

I've been reading up a lot on Vs specifically and hunting dogs in general and something always stood out to me as "not quite right" - specifically the constant theme of Vs general "high energy", craziness, roaming and the need for literally a TON of daily exercise. 

Perhaps this is not the right place for this, but I wanted to throw a few thoughts out there and see if anyone agrees. 

*1. "High Energy" dogs*

Many people keep saying how much energy Vizslas have all the time, how crazy they get without exercise, and so on.

I haven't been able to find anything anywhere that would explain why Vizslas specifically are *supposed* to be especially high-energy dogs, more so than other sporting breeds, but I keep reading that they are. This makes absolutely no sense to me.

Further, reading the latest science-based books on dogs like "Dog Sense" or "A Modern Dog's Life", I keep hearing that this behavior is not at all consistent with what feral dogs show in their "natural" environment. They are opportunistic feeders and scavengers, they don't race around like crazy several hours a day, they expend energy when they need to and not constantly, they trot more than they run, there are no permanent "pack leaders", etc, etc.

In other words, my impression is that there is something not quite right with a super high energy Vizsla and if it's literally bursting with uncontrollable energy and is unruly, then it points to a behavioral or some other problem. 

Hypothesis (a): FOOD- is it possible that today's dog food is so densely packed with energy that it is a dog's equivalent of a few cans of Red Bull?

Hypothesis (b): REWARD - could it be that an unruly Vizsla is simply offering the behavior that was rewarded multiple times in the past (running around and being crazy = being taken out for a massive 2 hour walk in the woods)?

Hypothesis (c): BODYBUILDING - taking a dog for a daily 2 hour off-leash crazy race in the woods in fact actively trains the dog to take on more and more exercise, like endurance building?

Hypothesis (d): OVER-STIMULATION - someone had recently linked to an article from 4paws that talked about it. My take on this is - maintaining a highly excited state and not training self-control either during a mad race in the woods or a walk in the park full of distractions (people, dogs, bicycles, cars, etc) can result in a hyper dog?

*2. "Racing" Vizslas*

A lot of people are often talking about the dangers of letting their Vizslas off leash, losing sight of them when they run, etc. This is another topic that I find not quite right. 

Older books on training pointing dogs talk a lot about the difference between hunting breeds, especially among those who work independently (like beagles) and those that coordinate with the hunter (pointers, etc). 

They key point these books make is that "ranging" (i.e. the distance between the dog and the hunter) is a critical consideration for a good pointing breed. A pointing dog that "runs" or wants to "range" at a considerable distance to the hunter, especially out of sight, is *not* a good hunting dog. A good pointing dog will always stay close to the hunter and will run lightly, never race. A bird hunt that involves flushing and a hunter who walks is by definition a slow activity, and if a dog starts pointing and flushes beyond the firing range the hunt is ruined.

(Edit): In other words, staying close to its owner and keeping him/her in sight at all times as instinctive trait must be very important in a pointer, I think. That probably explains the "velcro" moniker of many sporting breeds and their need for our company.

At the same time, the modern field trials for sporting dogs have been for decades scoring the dogs on their ability to run hard and range wide. In other words, speed and range is encouraged at field trials, in contrast to the requirements at a real hunt . Yet, these fast and wide ranging dogs get the field titles and are bread, often as an alternative to confirmation-bred dogs. 

Other people have already pointed out many times that setters have been so inbred for hard running and ranging because of field trials that they can longer be effective hunting dogs. Labs are no longer effective retrievers, and so on. 

Breeding, then, takes 3 forms:
- true hunting
- field trial parents (hard running, ranging)
- conformation

Hypothesis (a): GENETICS - Vizslas that race like mad, especially out of owner's sight, are slowly but surely following the footsteps of the setters because their parents are likely to have been bred for field trials and descend from field trial titled dogs. 

Hypothesis (b): TRAINING - as alluded to in my other post, I also wonder if these racing Vs _simply don't know what else they can do_. Because I reject the dominance training model (Cesar The Whisperer), I think the role of a dog's owner is to be its "coach" and not its alpha, where training is really guiding and helping the dog to make the right behavior choices. This is why I think that training puppies and dogs in general means playing games with them that take advantage of their natural instincts (retrieving, tracking, etc) as well as rewarding the appropriate behavior and withholding the reward for the wrong one. 

Or perhaps, it's a little bit of everything? 

I would be very interested in what others think on this topic. 

And, to be clear, nothing here is intended to criticize Vizsla owners, their methods or their particular dogs, but is, hopefully, a conversation about Vizslas in general and the trends in appropriate/inappropriate traits


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

polkan,

Sorry, I don't even know where to start. 

Might I suggest reading "Merle's Door"? This one book is my favorite all time dog book. The author was disparaging on bird hunting dog training and the making of little robots in the field. 

In a Vizsla, 

I want high energy. I feed for high energy, I exercise for high energy. I will breed for high energy.

I hunt with a high energy dog that can cover a 25 acre field in a couple hours and find every bird in that field. Independence and a partnership combined in the proper proportions is the goal of good breeding and training. They go together. You can train a duffer of a dog to hunt but it will never be great at it. You can have a great dog and screw it up with poor training.

Of course, if you like to read, there are over 350 unique posts on my blog. 

My .02

RBD
http://redbirddog.blogspot.com


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Hi rbd

I do read your blog, as a matter of fact, but haven't read the book you mentioned. To be clear, I'm not suggesting Vizslas should be docile or low energy. I'm trying to understand why Vizslas are frequently singled out as _higher_ energy dogs than other pointers/retrievers. 

Is this deliberate? What's the reason? If it isn't deliberate, what's the reason?


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

polkan said:


> Other people have already pointed out many times that setters have been so inbred for hard running and ranging because of field trials that they can longer be effective hunting dogs. Labs are no longer effective retrievers, and so on.


I stopped reading at this. English setters are still the number one choice for ruffed grouse hunters for a breed of dog to hunt with. If you know anything about ruffed grouse hunting you know that the dogs need to be able to work close to the hunter. I'm retiring a Gordon setter that is the best hunting dog I've ever owned, and that also means the best grouse dog I've ever hunted behind. Labs are still the number one retriever chosen by waterfowl hunters. Perhaps you need better sources or perhaps it is a more discerning mind. Either way, you've got a lot to learn.

Regarding the high energy of Vizslas, first let me point out I still don't have first hand experience. The breeder I'm picking my new Vizsla pup up from this weekend comes from a family that field trialed with pointers (the number one choice for field dog enthusiasts). She doesn't believe Vs are more high strung than pointers, or any other well bred hunting breed. I'll know soon enough.

No harm in trying to learn before you own, but in the final analysis what matters is what you do when you get your V.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> I'm trying to understand why Vizslas are frequently singled out as higher energy dogs than other pointers/retrievers.


Another book is "The Right Dog for You". 

Vizslas are a "rare breed" compared to other pointers. I think some people look at a Vizsla maybe as cool "arm candy." Not many would get a GSP or GWP or English Pointer or American Pointer as "eye candy." Those also are high energy hunting dogs. Retrievers don't have near the energy level as pointers. The Vizsla is a 1,000 year old breed that was and still is able to run with horses all day in a hunt. Retrievers were never asked or required to do this. For duck hunting you want a dog that will be still most of the time and be able to swim in cold water.

Some hunting dogs are bred to hunt with the foot hunter but Vizslas and only a hand full of others were bred to be versatile hunting dogs off horseback. 

There are only 11 pointing breeds in the world. The Vizsla is one. Do you know the other 10?

Don't let the good looks of a Vizsla fool you. Under that velvet red coat is a hard running hunting dog. One friend sells a bumper sticker, "Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog."

Continue your research. 

RBD


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Well... I suppose I should have known what to expect for throwing something controversial in front of people who are emotionally invested in Vizslas. Guess what, I am too and I wouldn't be here otherwise. 

But I still think my question is valid - there must be a rational, logical reason why Vizslas are bred to be higher energy dogs than other pointers. If they are not bred deliberately to be higher energy, then it is a result of something else. 

(By the way, you can love a dog and still try to figure why certain things are the way they are or why they came about, without being defensive or patronizing about it.)

Continental pointers are all related, all were bred to be high energy versatile hunting dogs and yet people consistently point out differences between especially high energy of Vizsla and every other gun dog. 

I've thought about the differences in terrain and bird type in birthplaces of different breeds, but that accounts for differences in body type and coat, not energy levels per se. 

I can understand the flattering folklore about it being a dog of nobility (most purebred dogs were) - it appeals to and validates our perception of a Vizsla being special and unique (it is, without a doubt). But that's not a rational or logical explanation of why the energy level of one breed would be singled out and determined to be a particularly desirable and selected trait in comparison with the rest of the group.

I don't see what that reason might be and so I think it must have something to do with breeding practices or other factors (training, feeding, etc). That doesn't make me love Vizslas any less. Perhaps more concerned with their well-being and future.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Good luck in your research. Let us know what you come up with.

RBD


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## Lincolns Parents (Aug 6, 2011)

Lincoln who is a papered V with all the hunting lines etc.... is the most laid back dog ever. He runs a plays in the yard just like any other dog but when hes in the house which is 95% of the time he is sleeping in his bed in our living room or sleeping under your feet. We don't take him out for extra exercise...he doesn't "fly" around like other V's. He and our weimaraner are both really laid back. His parents seemed like "normal" dogs to us. I guess its either in his breeding or maybe the way I run my house....either way he is a really calm Vizsla!


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

I've always considered the Vizsla traits as simply amazing, and created on purpose. All dogs have been bred for certain purposes, and some better than others. I know it is a biased opinion, and I clearly don't know enough about breeding to explain why the Vizsla is what it is, but imo it is the epitome of what all pointers should be.
They are fast, smart, trainable, and most importantly in all working breeds, loyal.

Your hypothesis may all be correct in some some respect, although how I raise my particular dog doesn't affect the breed in the long or short term. She is spayed and will never get to pass on her amazing genes. As most Vizslas come from breeders, they would be your best source for info on why certain traits continue to show up. 

I have a question for you, maybe it was semantics, but where have you heard of many people having trouble with Vizslas off-lead?
One of the key points that helped us choose this breed was reading about how close they hunted with their owner. Some are harder to get back than others, but it's rare to hear a V's name yelled over and over again, as most I've met like to be relatively close to their owners. They can run away, but it is rare as they are the opposite of beagles who rarely _don't_ run away...

I'm not sure this post helps at all, but then again I'm not really sure who can fully explain why these dogs are as amazing as they are. They're hundreds of years in the making, so any info from early on in the breeding process is surely lost in translation.


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## Skywalker (Jul 10, 2011)

Perhaps supply and demand plays into a rational logical explanation... or the high energy fallacy is just a hyper-perpetuated generalization in the first place, as there are numerous exceptions that you can find on this site, like Lincoln.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

polkan said:


> Hi rbd
> 
> I do read your blog, as a matter of fact, but haven't read the book you mentioned. To be clear, I'm not suggesting Vizslas should be docile or low energy. I'm trying to understand why Vizslas are frequently singled out as _higher_ energy dogs than other pointers/retrievers.
> 
> Is this deliberate? What's the reason? If it isn't deliberate, what's the reason?


I believe it is due to not only an equal physical energy level as other pointers, however with an hightened intelligence. I have two Vizslas and a German Short Haired Pointer. All three are relaxed dogs. But, only if they get the required doses of both physical and mental stimulation. The difference is that the V's require additional mental stimulation in addition to what is done during our exercise regime. Does that makes sense? So both breeds run as much as each other when on our outings, but then when we get home, the two Vizslas like to have some mental stimulation before they are spent. 

My pointer is a female and is very high energy for a pointer, but she equals my Vizslas, who are really relaxed Vizslas. 

The reason they are bred to have that energy level, is to go out on the hunt all day and be able to have the speed and stamina to hunt all day. That is also why they can lay quietly for periods of days without exercise. Then go out hunting for 12 hours without stopping. That is the sort of traditional life they had. Relax around the country manor with the family. Affectionate and protective of the kids, often sleeping with them. Then, when there was hunting to be done, out with the master and the guns for the day, rain, hail, sleet, snow, till dusk hunting.

As for V's running off, I have never heard of one over here on Oz that did, but I have certainly read a few posts about people concerned about it. Mostly, the dog isn;t far away and normally has an eye on the owner. Rarely will a V take off and not turn back to see where pack leader is. My GSP will track further ahead than either of my Vizslas. They say a GSP hunts for itself and a V hunts for you.


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks, everyone. I keep looking and will come back with whatever I find. 

Meanwhile, a quick note to Aimless1 on labs specifically (I missed his point yesterday) and the impact of breeding on temperament and excessive hyperactivity: these examples below is what I keep running into (not only for retrievers), over and over again. They are obviously not Vizsla specific. However, given the fact that Vizslas are smaller in number it might be more applicable than not. 

Again, these are not representative of anything, just what I keep finding repeatedly. I'll post anything more applicable to Vizslas if and when I find something.

http://www.fetchpup.com/dogs/breeding.php

http://www.ducks.org/hunting/retriever-training/five-key-points-for-training-your-retriever/page5


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

For your research:

_The Right dog for you. Choosing a breed that matches your personality, family and lifestyle_. By Daniel Tortora, Ph.D.

_Chapter 2 The Sporting Dogs
Intro: Sporting Dogs is a breed type that identifies 24 seperated breeds, each of which has been adapted for hunting. The group includes three breeds of pointers, five breeds of retrievers, three breeds of setters, ten breeds of spaniels and the Vizsla, Weimaraner and Wiredhaired Pointing Griffon. These dogs were selectively bred for pointing, flushing and/or retrieving game.
A few of the breeds have ben used as guide dogs; only two or three out of the twenty-four are natural guard dogs. Most of these dogs need lots of excercise._

This was the book that got me to look at the Vizsla compared to the other pointers. I had never seen or heard of a Vizsla before 2006.

The author divides "Dimentions of Temperment" into 16 catagories and ranks on a bar chart for each from Very Low to Very High the level of Dimension.

The first four for the *Vizsla GSP Pointer GWP*
1. Indoor activity: Med-Low Very High Very High off the chart High
2. Outdoor activity: High-Med Very High Very High off the chart High
3. Vigor: High Very High High off the chart High
4. Behavioral consitancy: High High High High-Med


Recommended reading. 

On the back cover, it ends with:
_This fully illustrated guide includes easy-to-read tables and pages of practical advice, plus a mini-questionnaire to help you narrow down your selection to the perfect match for you, your family, and your lifestyle._

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/067147247X/ref=nosim/librarythin08-20

Good luck on your search.

RBD


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Aimless1: This is to clarify my point yesterday about setters, although I just found this link a few minutes ago. Once again, this is a very consistent opinion regarding the problems stemming from breeding for the wrong reasons. 

_Neither of these pictures of the Gordon setter makes the breed seem very promising as a gun dog for producing or retrieving wild game birds. But each of these pictures illustrates the breed at its *extremes*: the oversized, plodding show dog more along for a walk than for a hunt, contrasted to the lightweight speedster bred to run far and wide and more intent on covering lots of ground than finding game in the nearby cover.

Neither dog may easily become a useful bird dog. Between these extremes, however, there are some traditional gun dogs that might be more difficult to find but are out there for those hunters who would like to find them._

http://www.gundogmag.com/2011/06/09/todays-gordon-setter/


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

At this point, I still wasn't able to find anything anywhere that would suggest that _higher_ energy in a Vizsla, in comparison with other sport dogs, is deliberately selected or bred for. As I said earlier, I don't think it was or the reason for it is very well hidden. This leads me back to where I started - it's behavioral, genetic or something else. 

Here's what I did find that may be interesting

1. Descendants of field trial winners (wide ranging, "hotness", etc). It's a problem with all sporting breeds, not only Vizslas. 

However, it's also important to know that a requirement for field trial Vizslas to conform to the official breed standard was not approved and enforced until 1991!! There was a lot of underground back-crossing going with Vizslas in the US in the 1960s and 1970s, when they were cross-bred with GPS, some setters, etc and the pedigrees were forged. Dogs were run in field trials and bred, that would have been disqualified for not meeting the official standard. 

Vizsla Club of America even issued a public statement condemning cross-breeding and the forgeries of pedigrees. There were debates in the Vizsla breeder circles about acceptance of DNA records a few years ago because it is still possible, even today, for wire-haired coat puppies to be born occasionally (and promptly culled without publicity).

So I think it is undeniable that the pressure of field trials (that do not necessarily represent hunting conditions) has resulting on at least some behavior changes. It doesn't mean, however, that this happened only to Vizslas and back-crossing should actually equalize any differences in energy levels between the breeds, if any.


2. Low serotonin levels due to separation anxiety

- Houston SPCA covers this well. I found their short intro to this especially illuminating:

_The relief and comfort of social contact reinforces the distress behaviors that the puppy displays (pup feels anxious, pup whines for mom, mom comes back, pup feels better)._

http://hspca.convio.net/site/DocServer/separation_anxiety.pdf?docID=401

Also, in my personal experience I have seen the difference when a puppy is gradually but consistently trained for "alone time = happy time" as soon as he is brought home and when the emotion of greeting and separation is strongly controlled. Again, this is not specific to Vizslas, but I think the incredible ability of Vizslas (and Dalmatians) to develop hyper attachment plays some sort of role here (I make one more point on that below). 


3. Diet:

There was a huge push not that long ago to stop feeding dog food that contained starchy "junk" carbs and especially corn, for various reasons, including the impact on dog behavior, among others. But what seems to have happened is it was replaced by super high protein diet or fake "protein" diets.

Unfortunately, there is not much information available on this that's backed up by science, only opinions from celebrity "specialists". I did find a few links to research, where the morning meal in a generally high protein diet was modified to slightly reduce protein and increase fiber. It did result in some behavior changes but it was a single study (not much research seems to be done here). Also, my impression was that the behavior changes were more subtle than the change occurring following the removal of corn. 

4. The "content" of training:

Various sources (as well as the comments already made here) repeatedly say that training that uses natural instincts of the breed is better than mindless running. Patricia McConnell writes fairly often about this and several field trainers/authors believe puppy games that take advantage of breed-relevant instincts will result in a more focused, controlled and accomplished adult dog.

5. Teaching the "Off-Switch": This was fairly new to me, but some respected names (Patricia McConnell especially) believe that teaching dogs self-control is crucial but interrupted when puppy is separated.

One of the examples is how a mother controls the overall roughness of play between puppies in a litter, calms puppies down when they become overexcited, and how that control and teaching disappears when a puppy is brought home and is waited on as if it were a human infant.

Many people like Vizslas because of their ability to form a really strong bond with the owner. So, I think it is possible that one its most endearing qualities makes it harder for owners to develop routine, discipline, self-control and (especially) encourage and train independence and confidence...


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> Perhaps this is not the right place for this, but I wanted to throw a few thoughts out there and see if anyone agrees.





> Well... I suppose I should have known what to expect for throwing something controversial in front of people who are emotionally invested in Vizslas. Guess what, I am too and I wouldn't be here otherwise.


polkan,
Are you doing a thesis for a veterinarian school or are you thinking of getting a Vizsla? I'm confused. But then again, it isn't hard to confuse me.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I think he's rather after a healthy intellectual discussion about how and why traits are bred into the Vizsla. But, I think we all missed it, or rather, we all don't care as long as they are what they are!!  

Perhaps a breeders forum might be a good place for that type of discussion?


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## tracker (Jun 27, 2011)

I am impartial either way, but this thread is a great read. Gives you alot to think about.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Ray Cooper -- Co-Founder of the National Vizsla Association

WHY RUN VIZSLAS IN AMERICAN FIELD TRIALS?
_Here’s how and why:

1. By competing in trials against breeds that are considered 
the best, one gains a perspective on what is needed is his own dogs. 

This helps to prevent kennel blindness. 
If you see what your dogs need in order to
win, you will be far more selective in your breeding
program or when selecting a pup.


2. As you select the best of the best from your breed you
automatically encourage improvement and
discourage complacency.
If you know either the sire or dam 
you are considering for breeding stock isn’t capable of 
beating the best you are going to look elsewhere.


3. As the product of better breeding begins to perform and 
win against the breeds considered to be the best,
not only does your attitude change,
but so it does in the minds of those you’re competing against.


4. As these better Vizslas begin to win more often, you attract others
to your breed who have the same desires as yourself.


5. As you attract more bird dog fanciers they in turn only breed 
the best to the best and you begin to see more improvement yet.


6. Over time the breed improvement benefits from this continued momentum.


This can only happen in an arena of purists.


As long as there is a diversion of interest there will be a dilution of quality.

If you are trying to have a do everything dog,
you may very well wind up with a do nothing dog. 

By running in American Field trials you are competing
in a world of bird dog purists.

They don’t give a hoot about which dog won last weekends
best in show. They aren’t interested in hearing that your dog 
can catch a Frisbee and jump over a stick.


While they may be polite about it, they are thinking why
do those people care about that? 

If you love the bird dog in your Vizsla, then you owe it to yourself and 
your dog to go up against the best. 

Find out how you stack up. 
You may be surprised, just as many Vizsla owners have been, 
when you bring home the blue.

You may be disappointed at first. One thing you will know is what 
you’ve got and what it’s going to take to win. 


If you have the desire and the dedication you can have an impact on the trials you
run in, the people you compete against and the breed you love.


If you would like to learn more about running in 
American Field trials, instead of taking someone else’s word for it, 
go to their website (http://www.americanfield.com/) 
or subscribe to their weekly magazine. 

You will see that there are trials all over the country and
probably some near you on nice grounds.


Go to some, run a dog or two and meet the people. 
You will find a world of people completely dedicated to


bird dogs, their preservation and improvement.
You may take a little ribbing because you don’t have aPointer or Setter, I sure have. 

But that only makes it sweeter when they hand you the trophy. 


A good Vizsla can compete against any breed. 


A mediocre Vizsla can beat other mediocre Vizslas on any given weekend.


You decide which you would rather have."_


http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/12/faith-based-vizsla-training.html


RBD


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

in my modest opinion and experience, we go away for breaks with some friends that have wire haired vizslas, 2, and a GWP. The GWP is far more rangy and harder running dog than the V's and can keep it up all day. My own dog, a wire viz crossed with a smooth viz is very active off her leash but will never stray more than 30 yards from me. it would be interesting to have her out in the field with a purebred smooth Viz to see how she compares, when this happens I'll post my findings


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Hi RBD:

My original point had more to do with abnormal behavior in a Vizsla (such as energy level that is too high for a gun dog) and what reasons might account for it. 

I suggested that AKC field trials, as competitive events that put a premium on specific traits, such as running harder, ranging wider (so that_ their owners_ get rewarded while bragging about their purism), may have had an impact. In other words, in this sort of Olympic Games for dogs, they may result in dogs being bred that are especially good at ranging or running hard. Just a simple comparison of the selective breeding pressure that would come from field trials versus hunting tests would show the differences. 

I know that this has been a very controversial topic for a long time. And I can tell you that for every link you provide that promotes field trials and the dogs that win at them and populate the gene pool, I can come back to you with links that describe how an ideal gun dog should behave in a real hunt and in concert with its owner as opposed to at an imitation event that emphasizes certain traits at the expense of the overall performance and hunting conditions. 

But my point wasn't to criticize AKC field trials as someone's chosen pursuit. If that's all you got from me, I apologize.

My point was to say that a lot of Vizslas today have energy levels that are higher than what should be considered appropriate for a gun dog. This is likely the result of several factors, and breeding for traits that help a dog win a dog Olympics may or may not be one of them, but certainly not the only one. 

Vizslas were NOT designed to be run harder or range wider. They were bred to be versatile pointers/retrievers for the terrain (steppe) in which they worked, the birds they hunted and where other (often bigger/rougher) dogs were at a disadvantage, especially the specialized British pointers, setters and retrievers. 

But the fact is that this "unusually high energy Vizsla" in comparison with the gun dog average is quickly becoming a new normal, entering the dog folkore and leading people to actually "expect" it in their dogs. 

Perhaps you don't find this to be a problem. That's fine and I hope you're right. But to me, this rings all sorts of alarm bells and I wanted to understand why it is happening.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Polkan,

As long as we don't bore other members of this forum, as it seems at least Tracker finds this interesting, then I'm game.



> My point was to say that a lot of Vizslas today have energy levels that are higher than what should be considered appropriate for a gun dog



Dick Reinhardt DDS - 1980 



> Let us assume for the moment that this goal for which we are striving is a super gun dog with range ideally suited for the foot hunter; An attractive, driving dog that intelligently reaches out to the objectives, a nose that will allow him to locate accurately without crowding his birds, stamina to withstand a hard day’s hunt, and a biddable dog that is easily handled and trained.
> 
> 
> Immediately the average sportsman-hunter with his good shooting dog will exclaim, “…then why fool around with field trials and breed for these wild-running, All-Age dogs?”
> ...


The rest is here:

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-field-trials.html

I have been around several hundred Vizslas over the last few years and in field trials there are not many Vizslas. You can not TRAIN a dog to be a large hard running dog. You just can not train independence and desire. That has to be in the genes. You can always train closer work. When I went to South Dakota last fall, I went with a friend whose dogs "run big." Much bigger than Bailey. In the wide open rolling fields hunting for Sharptail Grouse his dogs would cover hundreds of acres quickly. There are objectives here and there (small bushes) where covies would most-likely be located. This country would have been better hunted off horseback. In the marsh areas and corn fields Bailey did great but didn't cover the ground my friend's Vizslas did in the open steppe of SD. When objectives are few hard driving hunting dogs blow through the open spaces. When cover thickens the ground covered in front of the hunter gets closer and closer in relationship to the number of objectives there are. The dogs learn what objectives are as they are trained.
Nothing more discouraging to me than to see a Vizsla in the field at the hunter's feet or just a few yards ahead. Completely dependent on the hunter. Not the partnership I want with my hunting dog. Nothing more exciting than to see Bailey on point 150 yards away locked on a bird. The bird feels "pinned by the dog" because it came across it so quickly that it had no time to run. A pheasant rather run 90% of the time than fly. If you come upon then slowly they can out run any hunter. But if Bailey is blowing through the field at 30 mph, catches scent, slams on the brakes, and freezes into a point then the bird goes "ah sh*t, I better just hunker down!" Remember, Vizslas are scent dogs and not sight dogs. The pheasant doesn't see the dog but knows something is very close and thinks if it is just really still the threat will go away.

That's it for now. Have to get the dogs out into the hills for a couple hours.

RBD

RBD


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

> You can always train closer work.


Versus this:



> Acclaimed trainer and author Paul Long observed that "if your dog handles but runs too wide to suit your taste and you especially dislike this, think about trading him off and getting the kind of dog you want. It will be an uphill fight to make him into a close dog, and neither he nor you may be happy if you succeed."


http://www.superiorpointers.com/range.html

I really think we're talking about different things here, RBD. 

I do prefer NAVHDA and AKC hunting test to AKC field trials and clearly you think otherwise. But again - that's not my point. 

Too many of today's Vizslas are behaving like hounds on endurance and steroids, that just want to run as much as possible. This is not what versatile gun dog is about but it is affecting the quality and the perception about the breed. All I was trying to do is understand why and the sport was just one of several possible reasons.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

polkan said:


> Too many of today's Vizslas are behaving like hounds on endurance and steroids, that just want to run as much as possible. This is not what versatile gun dog is about but it is affecting the quality and the perception about the breed. All I was trying to do is understand why and the sport was just one of several possible reasons.


I asked earlier for a source for a generalized comment you made, but you didn't reply.

I'll ask another:
Where have you seen Vizsla's behaving like hounds? 

You describe them above as goofy dogs who run aimlessly. I have not seen this, so I must question the validity of your statements. What is the point of a conversation if your perception is skewed? 
I can admit that my opinion is based around my own dogs performance, but I fail to see what yours is based around.

I have seen a number of Vizsla's in a variety of settings, including field trials. Seeing my own dog go from a full sprint to a dead stop point inches from a bird, tells me that she does indeed love running, but her nose can also keep up with her legs. She is not an anomaly, but the standard well-bred Vizsla. 
She scored 100% for one leg of her Field Dog Junior title, at an All-Breed field trial where her judge felt her intensity and endurance were precisely what a Pointing dog should possess. 

Perhaps you should convince owners of other breeds that they need to step up their game if they are going to compete with the Versatile Vizsla, instead of considering the intensity of the Vizsla, a detriment to the breed.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm all for healthy discussion, but your post is full of opinions, not facts. 



polkan said:


> Hi RBD:
> 
> My original point had more to do with abnormal behavior in a Vizsla (such as energy level that is too high for a gun dog) and what reasons might account for it. _*(Abnormal in what way and compared to what? Other Vizslas? Other breeds? Please qualify this with some data?)*_
> 
> ...


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

Just returned home with a somewhat bewildered and very tired puppy. I freely admit I haven't gone back and read all the posts but did scan several.

Polkton, I looked at the gun dog article on Gordons. Both the 90 lb behemoth and the 35 lb wisp are outside of the past three breed standards and should not be considered representative of the breed. Neither is a worthy example of the breed and neither would be expected to perform well in the field. You still need better sources or better discernment of what you're reading. 

I really don't have time at the moment to either read & digest the previous posts nor to elaborate on my POV. I've been hunting and chasing bird dogs for more than 3 decades. I learn every day and each dog has taught me more than it learned from me. My newest pup, like previous ones, comes from a field trial breeder who is working to better the breed with each litter produced. The same traits that make good field trial prospects make the best foot hunting bird dogs as well .... nose, drive, stamina, speed, range & etc. No, I don't want to hunt behind another friends boot licking pointing dog working within gun range. I don't need a dog to find birds there ... I can do that. 

I sincerely doubt I can contribute to this discussion in any further meaningful way. The puppy just woke up and duty calls ... as it will for the next several days.

Good luck finding the answers to your questions, but my advice is to stop believing every thing you read. Question the conclusions drawn and check your sources better. Gun dog has several writers who really don't research their topics well. Makes for interesting reading but not worthwhile as a good source of meaningful, factual information.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Sorry polkan but this is the end of this thread for me.

This thread reminds me of a psychologist that tells people how to raise their kids but never had any and was an only child of divorced parents. A person to explain to those who do raise kids what they are doing wrong. 

You really need a dog to train and let us know how that goes. Then maybe we can have a discussion worth having.

For now and as long as I can, I'll be hunting behind my *crazy running Vizslas*.

RBD


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

RBD: You don't know a single thing about me, who I am, what dogs I own, etc. It's OK. If you like a pointer that looks like a Vizsla, that's fine with me too.

Would you _at least_ agree that a "*versatile* hunting dog", such as Vizsla is influencing the current state of the breed in the US because puppies from champions that win titles in "*Pointer* Breed Trials" are in high demand?



Happy New Year!


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## jakersmomma (Jan 3, 2010)

Polkan, are u now insinuating that our Vizsls aren't pure? Hmmm, there's a lot of beautiful qualities and traits of a Vizela besides their hunting ability. My V does not run aimlessly nor does he run far ahead of me. He is a very well mannered boy!. Fall in love with a V and then come beck to us.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Happy new year 2 all-ended 2011 by setting out 30 pheasents on 80 acres-4 friends and PIKE-cleared the field in 2 hours-bagged 28 birds-thats why our breed runs-set 30 more birds last night and hunting them this morning-what a great way 2 start 2012-God bless us all


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

R.E. McCraith,

Darn, must be tough having such a crazy running Vizsla that can cover 80 acres, find 97% of the birds planted in two hours. And Pike is going to do it again today? You should be worried. 

Have a great hunt. What a great way to start 2012. We had broiled marinated pheasant breasts last night for dinner. We are off to a Bay Area Vizsla Walk later this morning and I'm going to bring sample bites for the 15 to 20 folks bringing their Vizslas on the walk. Most of them have never tasted pheasant. 

Maybe we can share recipes.

RBD


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

You crack me up RBD. 

Sounds like fun and Pike had two great days. Congratulations.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Same luck 2 day 28 birds in under 3 hours-4 polkman the only time PIKE is still is on the couch in my lap or on point!-living in Kentucky we have no pheasents our bird breeder Two Toms raises his birds in 1 acre flight pens with corn and milo growing on the ground-leaving them out over night in the feild gives you a close to wild bird as possible-they all came up and if they were pen raised Pike would snatch them on the ground-2moro it's ducks on the pond n warm enough for Pike 2come-Polkman needs to shoot over vizlas in the field 2 see how special they are-Pike is arm candy and a chick magnet(LOL)-we go out west twice a year but it's nice to have so much fun at home!!!!!!!


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I aksed Polkan a few posts back to back up his opinion with some facts. He ignored my post, as he did with a previous request for factual back up from another poster. He has responded sincethen, but ignored the questions. I wonder if he is actually intelligent and is just stiring the pot, or if he really does believe his skewed and factless views? Perhaps he's away so long as it takes some time to create the data you need to back up outlandish opinions.  

But please, let's not insulate ourselves, let's be open to his discussions. I am, as are a few others. All I want to know, is where the information came from to formulate these opinions. Not a big ask when the claims are similiar in nature to the Kennedy Conspiracy....


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

redbirddog said:


> We are off to a Bay Area Vizsla Walk later this morning and I'm going to bring sample bites for the 15 to 20 folks bringing their Vizslas on the walk. Most of them have never tasted pheasant.


The pheasant was DELICIOUS, thanks for sharing! Now I really want to hunt with Riley.


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Mischa (and Ozkar, RBD and others): 

For what it's worth, I've been exposed to Vizslas since 2006 and I sometimes see owners who are terrified of taking them off-leash, at one extreme, or resign themselves to waiting until a dog is done racing like mad for 2 hours, at another. I used to think for a very long time that these are simply under-excercised dogs in the hands of urban/suburban fanciers who don't really know what to do with them or how to excercise them in a productive way. I'm sure that plays a role. However, I had a chance to see several Hungarian imports this year who were also companion dogs and the differences in behavior and, especially, self-control were notable.

In the last two months alone I spoke to several buyers who told me they were considering either a Vizsla or a GSP or (a setter) and chose the latter because Vizslas have a "reputation for higher energy". This is why I became curious about it and I think there was nothing wrong with trying to figure out what's behind it. Now, I cannot prove or disprove this and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You believe this is all BS and from your point of view you are, of course, right. But I've heard this enough times to make me wonder if there may be a perception out there (regardless of whether or not it's true).

Also, I readily concede that my post wasn't _as articulate or as respectful of the private emotions of the Vizsla folks here as it could have been_. I tried to make a disclaimer against that towards the end of my original post, but it clearly wasn't enough. And, I could have started the whole thing by asking how prevalent it is with the owners on this forum (although few would confirm it for obvious reasons, even if it were the case). Again, if anyone is offended - my apologies, it wasn't intentional.

Anyways, from here, the conversation rapidly derailed into an argument about the Vizsla hunting style, because I intimated that the breeding and selection process must have somehow been influenced by field trials.

I don't believe conformation breeders would produce higher energy dogs, but I don't deny it's possible - if they don't select for temperament. I only deal with hunters on a social level and the behavior I personally observed didn't come from dogs that hunt all the time. But many of them come from _litters of the field title winners_, and in fact the title was one of the extra "guarantees" of getting a dog from a reputable breeder. So from my vantage point, it is likely relevant but I never suggested it is the main or overriding factor. I listed several.

_Before I go any further, let me also say that a "proper" Vizsla hunting style has been debated by the breeders within the VCA for years and I'm not inventing a whole new discussion here._ 

Yesterday afternoon I spoke to a breeder of GSPs of 35 years who stopped participating in all trials except for NAVHD and who doesn't sell his puppies to anyone except serious foot hunters. 

He insists, rather adamantly, that the contintental versatile hunting dogs had been undergoing significant transformation in the US for quite a while because the field trials were originally designed for the specialized pointing breeds from England. The hallmarks of a versatile hunting dog, in his view, are its handling, thoroughness and the overall harmony with the foot hunter. Obviously, this is own private opinion but I think it's worthy of consideration, one way or the other. 

Field trials are competitive events where dogs of all breeds compete against each other, where versatile hunting dogs compete against specialized pointers on what pointers do best. _There is no standard developed specifically for versatile hunting dogs_ (the hunt test and, more recently NAVHD, are going in the right direction and evaluate against breed standard, not apples and organges). Competitive field trials are important to breeders for various reasons (including highly personal, it's a sport after all) and they serve as a quality guarantee for buyers of companion dogs. There is frequent and sometimes public confrontation between two opposing camps on this issue. All of them, btw, are very passionate about the dog. 

With regards to other sources:

1. Marion Coffman, the early Vizsla pioneer and historian and the breeder of the first triple champion Vizsla in the US, wrote in "Versatile Vizsla" that


> "in the field Vizslas combine all the attributes of the pointer, setter, and retriever. They point by instinct, and are very close-working dogs (no more than 150 yards from their owners), making them the ideal weekend hunting companion gundog"


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1577790561/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_g14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0MXKGCZ068TXSAN6EP0N&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

2. On Diana Boggs site (I cannot find the link anymore), Marianne Gyárfás, a Hungarian judge since the 1980s and a pointer breeder herself, wrote this in the Centennial Vizsla catalog of Magyar Vizsla Club in Hungary on judging Vizsla in the fied: 



> The style of quartering: The best way is an even, snaky movement because the Vizsla can find game with this style in the shortest time, using the least energy and making the least number of mistakes. How wide should it be ? It is not the distance that counts but the usefulness of its performance. It depends on the relief of the terrain and on the flora. How far ahead should it go? It depends on its scent, on the wind and flora. The main point is that it should not miss any game, but should not run unnecessarily. Mistakes: It goes too far ahead, it turns downwind, it circles, it runs without system. The most important is to judge whether the Vizsla runs or quarters only at the commands of its master or it hunts. It is important to see its permanent desire to find the game."





> "Speed: It is not the actual speed that counts but continuity and the desire to find the game. The one that is faster has better chances to find but also to make mistakes. The Hungarian Vizsla has an average speed compared to other breeds of continental gundogs"



3. Surprisingly to me, speed differences between Pointers, GSPs and Vizslas were mentioned in the early breed publicity materials in the US in the 1950s. There is a paragraph at the very end of the article that compares Pointer's speedy "dash" and firm pointing, GSP's pointing and retrieving but a moderate speed; and Vizsla's perfect balance of speed, point and retrieve. 

http://www.annianvizslas.com/PDFs/VizslaAmericasGoldenDog3_4MB.pdf


Anyway. It seems there is something going here, but the conversation is going further and further away from my original question. It's becoming confrontational for the wrong reasons and I realize it was the wrong forum to bring this up. 

So, I think it's best, as RBD suggested earlier, to let this thread fold and move on to other topics.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Polkan, It's not about being respectful or articulate. I don't think anyone is saying anything except stop posting heresay and 3rd hand opinions and start posting up some facts that back up what your are implying. That's all anyone has asked of you since your first post. 

I can't see how we are overly sensitive to the discussion, we just do not agree that your opinion is formulated using sound factual criteria. So, once again, show us the data that backs up your OP and the data that answers my questions from your previous post. There are two or three posts from people asking for you to do this and you don't reply to them, you start on with something else. So either put up, or shut up mate. 

I don't think anyone has an issue with whatever opinion you have, be they in agreeance or not. I think the issue comes from you not being able to substantiate what you post. In Australia, we call that 'Bullshit". So either cut the bullshit and back up what you say without changing the subject, or be open to the criticism that you have so obviously instigated.

You have been "exposed" to Vizslas since 2006. Great, I've been exposed to them since 1995, but didn't own one till 2010. My opinions have altered somewhat since then. Perhaps a little more 'Exposure' to them may be beneficial for you in formulating an opinion. 

As for you saying that the dogs you have met were mad in terms of energy, once again, the environment you saw them in (I think you stated a dog park) is not where most well trained and disciplined Vizslas are. I would hazard a guess, that the majority of those owners think an hour at the dog park is all that is required to satisfy a dogs needs. Barely enough for a pug, let alone a Vizsla. 

Polkan, don't let the thread fold. I'm really keen to see you back up your statements with some factual evidence, or, admit that it's just an opinion and just like that opinion of one breeder you sought, potentially doesn't offer a broad enough core sample to draw any accurate conclusions from. As all I have read from you so far, is vagaries based on individual experiences with a probable core sample of one or two. I call bullshit until you can offer something a little more concrete than some "Exposure" to Vizslas. To me, you have listened to the opinion of someone who is at odds with the rest of the community and have adopted this vitriol as your own. Perhaps do some more research before offering someone else opinion as your own, or preferably, offer your own opinion as exactly that and not a statement of fact which is so prevalent in your posts. Cheers.


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

Nicely stated Ozkar. I belong to many forums that would have booted you by now because you either can't or won't back up your views with facts. From my POV polkan, you've acted like a troll. 

This is a community that is remarkably civil and open minded. There is plenty of BS, lies, misguided opinions, bad tradition and old wives tales when it comes to dogs without intentionally adding to dung heap.


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

Really not sure I want to dredge this thread up again, but I thought polkan may enjoy this article from the National Vizsla Association:

http://www.thenva.org/download/Vizslas_Why_Field_Trials.pdf


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I've been hitting the new posts button in the hope of reading a reply from the OP with some factual evidence of his theories. However, it seems he hasn't got his settings to "Notify" of new posts......


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## tracker (Jun 27, 2011)

Enjoyed the article, straight to the point. 

Thanks


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

I enjoyed the article but than I started to think... ???
From the article - last paragraph:

"This “Drag of the Race”, or tendency within purebred varieties, when artificial selection is not employed, to revert to the norm of the species, can be simply stated as follows: a dog of field trial caliber will throw possibly one pup like himself in a litter and the rest will be good to excellent hunting dogs. A good to excellent hunting dog may through one or two dogs like himself and the rest fair hunting dogs. A fair hunting dog will produce a few like himself and the rest potterers. This is true of any breed – and this is – Why Field Trials."

=======

How is this possible considering the breed history? Do any of us really have a "golden Vizsla"?

*"As late as World War II, the Vizsla enjoyed protection in selective breeding, as only the remnants of the aristocracy and the large estate owners were permitted by custom to breed the dogs.

The breed is called the Hungarian Vizsla, not because of its origin in the country of Hungary as we know it today, but because of its origin in the Greater Hungarian Kingdom which existed prior to World War I and covered both Czechoslovakia and Hungary. The Vizsla was so closely held by the nobility of Czech and Hungary that it wasn't until the Russians came after World War II that specimens were taken out of the country.

The name, Magyar or Hungarian Vizsla may possibly suggest that all of the import Vizslas in this country come from Hungary and that would be an honor which all members of the breed could not claim and should be made clear at this time. We imported one male specimen by the name of "Hess von Schloss Loosdorf" from Count Piatti of Austria and, while this dog is a member of the Hungarian breed, he nevertheless would be of the Austrian Strain, as he was bred and born in Austria and his ancestry is of different lineage. This is especially important when one goes into the subject of eugenics, as it is a simple method of keeping the various strains and breeding pedigrees separate. In this country we now have the bloodlines of Czechoslovakia, Austria, Italy, and Yugoslavia, and sooner or later these bloodlines will blend and form American Strains.

We have just one Vizsla in this country that actually did come from Hungary and she is an aged specimen that was brought over by the former leader of the Hungarian Democratic Party. This Hungarian diplomat now resides in New York City and his female is not only a genuine Hungarian specimen but also the first Vizsla in the U.S. I have heard that there may be a genuine Hungarian specimen in the Kansas City area. No one has yet been able to make the proper contact behind the iron-curtain in the Hungarian sector and obtain a sizable quantity of their complete pedigree registered stock.

When the Russians came in 1945, the nobility feared for their lives and made an attempt to escape from the country. Many were put into prison and others did escape, a few taking their favorite Vizslas. These people fled to Austria, Germany, Yugoslavia, Italy, Bulgaria, and Turkey. Once these refugees were settled, they began to match up what few Vizslas they had in an attempt to save the breed. However, these people left in such haste that many neglected to bring their official pedigrees and registration papers with them. Thus, many of the offspring of these fringe Vizslas are without a complete and official pedigree. In some instances only the common "call names" are listed with no registration numbers of the sire and dam."*
http://www.buschvizslas.com/history.htm

This article from October, 1987 issue of "The Vizsla News." by Dr. Osborn, DVM is well written but is also full of omissions, even though it is well intentioned. No mention is made of the fact that in the 1600s the Vizsla dog was introduced to the British Isles. The British really have a noble variety of hunting dogs, perhaps we can look there to find a Vizsla bloodline similar to the original.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

It also neglects the historical fact that the German Short Haired Pointer was used to bring in some fresh breeding blood when the Vizsla was on the edge of extinction. So in reality, what is a "Pure" Vizsla? One from the 1200's?


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

True  GSP octane boost, indeed.


If anything the National Vizsla Association is only attempting to standardize the breed according to North American hunting style and custom.
Interesting fact, some hunt on foot others on horseback, yet others by Jeep. Can the short hair V keep up with the Jeep? Some Setters can.


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not entirely positive and Nitro is looking for attention at the moment .... but I believe I learned in Biology that all species breeding tends towards mediocrity, which is all the last paragraph is really saying. I certainly didn't take it literally. 

The litter my pup came from produced two field trial prospects out of 8 pups, based on testing. Both, one or neither may actually develop into a good field trial dog ... the roll of the dice when purchasing a puppy. I had an English Setter that came from a litter of 9 pups. All ended up being good to excellent grouse dogs ... but not mine.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

"The challenge of owning a great dog is often times they out think their humans and force us to learn more in order to deal with that.

Bailey is doing that for you. You'll learn more about dog behavior with a dog like Bailey than you ever would with an easy dog. 
I think that is what I love about the vizsla breed. Even after owning them for over 30 years, I am still learning about dog behavior with each new vizsla I own. It is a never ending process and not for the faint spirited."

A note from Kay, the founder of Vizsla Rescue Haven and breeder of my male Vizsla, Bailey. We were talking about aggression related to other male dogs and how Bailey is a hard driving hunting dog. 

Only owning these dogs for less than 5 years still makes me a rookie IMO. I could read endless dog books these days on canine behavior. Quite the trend now. The psychology of dogs.

I always go back to "Merle's Door" as my bible on dog thought process and the relationship between dog and man. 

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/04/you-need-dog-merle.html


Then there is "A Dog's Purpose" as my insight into what might be going on between those floppy red ears.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/08/dogs-purpose.html

Just my Sunday morning thought before we take our walk in the hills. 

Happy trails and trials,
RBD


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

redbirddog said:


> "The challenge of owning a great dog is often times they out think their humans and force us to learn more in order to deal with that.


I couldn't agree more. You just have to have a healthy sense of humor when you Vizsla shows you a new way of getting things done.


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

;D


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