# training order?



## ringo (Jan 22, 2012)

Right im starting to train willow, is there any commands to teach her first. I.e do i teach her sit first or stay etc. How much time per day should i spend training her have read various books with conflicting advice, i was thinking half an hour? Shes already learnt to sit which is very impressive  it took her all of 10 seconds to work out the kong wobbler this morning as well 
thanks for any advice


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

My view is you first have to train foundation exercises that allow you to control the basic dog behavior. 

From the standpoint of increasing difficulty and building them in layers, these could be as follows:
- response to name
- come
- sit
- stay
... and so on.

Additionally, you'd want to train leash walking
- response to name
- following you (running after you) on leash
- walking on a slacked leash
- heeling

Basic safety:
- take it
- leave it

Basic manners:
- jump on cue
- sit for greeting
- going to the crate
- sitting before going indoors/outdoors or into the car

I think the reason many recommendations are so confusing is because once you get beyond the absolute basics, it really comes down to what you want to achieve and the temperament of your dog. 

For example: just a sit-stay sequence can be expanded into highly sophisticated training (distance, time, distraction).

You can write down the behaviors that are very important for you to train, rank them in order of importance and begin. Alternatively, you write down the behaviors you dog shows that are not acceptable to you, rank them and begin on training the better alternatives. My preference would be to do both of these once you get past the basics.


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## ringo (Jan 22, 2012)

Ahh thanks thats a great answer , im going to carry on with sit and stay for now then. When it comes to training on the leash i assume she will be a bit older as she cant leave the house until shes 12 weeks because of her jabs. Or do people train the leash in there homes?


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

You can train leash walking anywhere and there is nothing wrong with starting at home. In fact, I would recommend it. Just take the leash and collar off when the dog goes to the crate.

Any exercise that works well at home would have to be trained again and again once you start going outside, because there are going to be very powerful distractions that will compete for your dog's attention.

I would also recommend very strongly to train a specific response to name - the dog has to look at you and maintain eye contact. This is "marked" by a clicker or by saying "Good girl" and then she's rewarded. She could be literally sitting next to you when you train it. The goal is to get an eye contact every time you call her name. I think this is a frequently overlooked, unfortunately, but highly valuable exercise, from the standpoint of behavior control, the foundation of all foundations.

And one more thing - I think the sequence within the actual training session has to include exercises that require the opposing behavior to the previous exercise block. For example, after getting the dog to come to you, train something that makes her go away from you (fetch). After training sit, do a few jumps, and so on. The idea is to make the behavior response cover a range of things and avoid predictability of sequencing within the same group.

Training sequence in terms of an overall plan and within a single session is one of the most interesting things in living with a dog, because nothing else builds a strong bond like training does.

Good luck!


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

The socialization period that matters most to a dogs adult life is between 8-12 weeks. 
It is wise to avoid off-leash parks at this time, and to carefully watch that they don't eat junk off the ground, but also very important to get them out of the house before 12 weeks of age. Ours was in puppy class @ 8.5 weeks old.

http://www.dfs-pet-blog.com/2009/08/puppy-socialization-the-critical-first-month/


Some say you shouldn't even bring a dog home before 10 weeks, and some say 7 weeks is ideal... 
So, it is up to you to decide what is best for your pup.


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## pippa31 (Aug 2, 2011)

I started leash training in our backyard before Pippa had all her shots. It worked really well. Then we walked around the block, and then 2 blocks, etc. Now, Pippa is leash-walked 30-45 minutes a day (2 hours off-leash though ). I think *polkan *has given some excellent answers as to training order. We started with "look", click (we are clicker-training) when Pippa made eye contact, and then another command. I practice "look' with her EVERY DAY (she is 8 months now). To this day, when I say "look", it stops her in her tracks. 

Good luck with your new pup!


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## Linescreamer (Sep 28, 2010)

Sit is waaaay over rated. I would not teach sit - especially if you will ever do field trials! Stay/Whoa, crate/kennel, Leave it are the first commands and most usefull. Train as much as the dog will let you. 10 minute intervales. When they stop responding stop. It should all be like play time for them and they will eat it up!


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm of the old school that pointing dogs are never taught to sit ... if you even think you might consider working them on birds at some point. Since it is the easiest command to teach it can be taught any time.

Basic commands like Linescreamer points out are best. I really don't think order matters all that much for commands used in the home. You're not really building off of one command to learn another. What you're really doing is teaching the pup how to learn, not so much the individual commands.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Linescreamer said:


> Sit is waaaay over rated. I would not teach sit - especially if you will ever do field trials! Stay/Whoa, crate/kennel, Leave it are the first commands and most usefull. Train as much as the dog will let you. 10 minute intervales. When they stop responding stop. It should all be like play time for them and they will eat it up!


Not in my world it's not! Sit is a key command for me. It is the tool I use to manage feeding, greetings, entry and exit of doorways etc., This to me, is a command I would teach early on. It allows a lot more control in a variety of situations if you have sit down pat. 

A1, what is the reason you say it is a bad thing for a hunting dog? Not arguing the toss, just want to understand your logic????

As for a strategy for the OP. I would take on board a lot of what Polkan has suggested. It makes sense to me.


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## anne_wilcrest (Oct 20, 2011)

there were 2 major mistakes i made:
saying "down" when i wanted her to get off people/things and then trying to use that as a (lie) down command - now we use "*off*" for _get off that person/thing_ and "*down*" for _lie down_

and using the universal "stay" hand signal for "touch" (which is a more fun - and crowd pleasing  - version of 'come/here') - touch is now a sideways open palm, like hitch hiking, but with palm open/towards here- and stay is obviously the universal "stop" hand sign

american sign language was my language at school, and i am a fan of signs, and have had great success with them in training.

the one thing i recently realized though is that although penny can go through all 20+ of our hand signals (no vocal command) responding IMMEDIATELY, she has a harder time if i just use my voice and hide my hands- or if my hands are at my sides, doing nothing, she just stares at them.

so basically, the signs really work... maybe too well.

the one other thing that i figured out in a round about way that i would strongly recommend (and i'm sure someone will argue this is wrong, but it's worked wonders for me) is having a tier of recall commands.

the lowest totem for us, which is the word i use all day, every day is: *com'on* (come on) or *c'mere*
our middle recall command is: *come* (which i ALWAYS pay her for, preferably the top shelf treats, and won't use if i know she won't come, and never use for anything but positive things or a fairly urgent situations, and never ever punish her for responding to this, no matter what she was doing before coming)
our EMERGENCY (life threatening) recall word is: *ici* (pronouced like spelling "E.C.") - which is French for "here" (I wanted a word I would never ever say under any other circumstances) - I use all the same conditions as for "come" PLUS i jackpot her treats she doesn't get for anything else- the smellier the better- (blue cheese, sardines, a piece of chicken meat+fat) - i have actually never had to use this except in practice. - knocks on wood

last week we were at the park, she found her first dead bird,  i said "Penny, come!" and she dropped it and ran to me, i don't use this often, so to be honest i was surprised it worked so well!
we walked for a while (me glowing with pride) and THEN she found her first dead rat!!!  
first i yelped, and she ran toward me with it. then she brought it to a hill, and was dropping her shoulder to rollover onto it and I said "PENNY, COME!" she didn't hesitate at all, and ran straight to me, full speed. (me, about to cry with relief, dropping all the treats i had on the ground in front of her - dead rat mouth!)
I later learned there were dead rats there because they are doing a 'reforesting?" where they kill all the rats so the natural habitat can be repopulated... which means that one probably ate poison... had i known that, i might have gone straight to "ici" - but the best part is, i didn't have to!

* i forgot about "*touch*" which is _touch your nose to my palm_ - i mostly use this as a kind of quick check in, or to position her closer to me. i use this more when she's playing and i want to pull her out of the game for a second, or if we're off leash somewhere and a car is about to pass, i'll have her touch my palm, hold her collar til it passes then say "go play!" - i'll also use this if she's not responding to "c'mere" but i don't want to resort to "come"

_sorry this was so long! 
be grateful i didn't attach my spreadsheet of commands! (totally not kidding)_


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Anne, I agree about the hand signals. I used hand signals in combination with verbal commands with my two previous Cocker Spaniels. It was a blessing in disguise, as later in life Strika my oldest Spaniel went deaf. So hand signals were brilliant and he did not need to learn anything new. 

I use a combination of hand and verbal commands with my three now. Same as you Anne, I use the universal Stop signal of the raised hand as the stay command. 

But, I use "Down" to get off someone or something. I use "Drop" if I want them to drop to the ground. 

But, I also have a few other unique commands I teach the dogs. Commands that no one would ever work out. I even have a little hidden signal which will make the dogs sit without anyone visibly noticing a command. I tell people my dogs are able to read minds


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

A1 is right, most pro hunters either don't teach sit or teach it well after a solid point has been trained. The reason is the intent of "sit" is often to control the dog thats excited. If sit is taught first, many dogs would ruin point staunchness by sitting down when the hunter comes close.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

polkan said:


> A1 is right, most pro hunters either don't teach sit or teach it well after a solid point has been trained. The reason is the intent of "sit" is often to control the dog thats excited. If sit is taught first, many dogs would ruin point staunchness by sitting down when the hunter comes close.


Interesting thinking. Although I do not hunt, we do "Feau Hunt". I have never done formal training with any of them, but they point brilliantly. All three of them. Me approaching the dog does nothing to alter this. All three will hold point till I get to them, then wait for me to release them. (Unless like today, where they actually surprised an injured bird and nabbed it )

But, the point being, I taught sit to all three as pups and as an adult with Zsa Zsa and none of them have had a point deteriorate due to it. Once again, not arguing with the logic, just suggesting that it might just be one of those "Mindsets" people get with things, as it certainly has not effected my two Vizslas or my German Shorthaired Pointer.


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

Polkan hit it. If the dog is taught to sit there is a high probability the dog will sit rather point some time during hunt training. Sit may be the easiest command to teach, but it is one of the more difficult habits to break. Originally setters did not point, but sat or "stood" their game when hunting. This allowed the hunters to come and throw nets over the birds and kept the dogs out of the way.

Every dog I've trained has sat when scenting game at some point during their training. Since they were not taught "sit" it is relatively easy to get them up into a point and keep it with the "whoa" command.

I don't have extensive experience with hand signals but the evidence is strong that they are actually more effective than verbal commands ... and less ambiguous.

Ozkar, bird hunters use the "whoa" command which means STOP/Stand Still. Recently I've heard some people use the "stand" command meaning the same thing.


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## Suliko (Sep 17, 2011)

From my experience with Sophie, since most of our daily walks are off-leash in the woods, I am very glad we tought her "come" and "stay" as one of the first commands. I wish we had worked more on the "heel" command. But it can still be done, she learns very quick. 
We do mostly "sit" and "down" commands when giving her toys. Then she does a "sit" and a "high-five"... 
I believe any command you choose to teach your pup will be good in any order. Training in itself is a good thing and stimulates dog's mind


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

I would agree that in general the order of commands for training should follow the order of the importance for behaviors you'd want your dog to learn (or to stop, via marking/redirecting), rather than any other logic.

As for breaking down the behavior in simplest units as a matter of approach to training, it can be useful for those owners who are interested in going beyond basic handling and teach more complex behaviors, without losing the simple commands.

Karen Pryor, who popularized clicker training for dogs, also taught about "chaining" individual commands into a new one that would combine several behaviors that you can handle with just one word. 

Her frequent example of a chain was the morning walk. Taking the dog out of the crate, having it stand for collar and leash, then having it sit at the door as you open it, then having it start walking with you (not before you) - all of that could be chained into a single behavior sequence of "let's go walk".

And while the individual commands are not even necessary for chains, they make chaining much much easier and they have value as stand alone commands for other situations.

In the end, it all comes to down to what the owner wants to achieve. .


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