# Timelines and expectations



## Oyster

Hey all - I've got a 10 month cutie/demon  who's also my first puppy ever... I've noticed that my puppy is a bit more, oh, I guess on the excitable side than other breeds...  I knew that was what I signed up for, but I'm trying to get a handle on for how long some things will last. There's a TON of dog friendly bars and restaurants around town (Portland, OR) and last week we tried one again (after a very high exercise day) and again it was a disaster. I had one hand on her harness throughout while she tried to throw herself at every dog or human who got anywhere near. I don't take her to dog parks because her response to commands while distracted is totally non existent. So she does do 3 days a week at a playgroup or daycare (which is bleeding me $$wise but she loves it and needs it), she's super sweet to all dogs and humans, hardly ever even remotely vocal, and house training seems to have taken firm root a few months ago... I'm convinced she's going to be the best companion I could ever have. I'm just curious... when that might be... I don't like to leave her alone for long - she CAN'T be alone in the house without crating, and any time I don't have eyes on her she finds something she shouldn't be chewing on... And I work from home, so we're ok that way, but the pattern has been about every 5 min I need to give her something new and interesting to chew on (mostly from 7am to 12pm is the busy time). And she's cool with being crated for a couple of hours here and there (which wasn't always the case) so I can, you know, go food shopping, or even have a meal at a restaurant from time to time which is nice and makes me feel human again...

Ok, I'll stop whining - I love my pup, I swear, and I already feel like we've been to war together. People here will probably laugh at me, but I tried to get her to sleep in her crate when I first brought her home. Every night the crate got closer to the bed, but even with my hands inside of it she needed to go out every 2hrs at least. 3-4 weeks later I let her on the bed and she slept for 8 hrs straight. My dating pool has reduced to women who REALLY like dogs, but, hey, that happened already anyway and I just didn't know it. 

SO! Can anyone volunteer:

How old before your dog could walk past someone on the sidewalk and not try to jump on them?

How old before your dog could sit through a dinner or a few drinks on a crowded patio and not be totally ape-sh!t?

How old before your dog could do leash training? (mine doesn't care about rewards when we're out and about - EVERYTHING is amazing)

How old (holy grail) before your dog could go with you on a hike or to a park and go off-leash with your confidence? (Crowded with other dogs and humans or no)

Thanks so much!!!


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## texasred

It depends on the dog, and the owners ability to train said dog.
It could be months, years, or never.
With young dogs you have to repetitively train, at each new place you take them.
Teaching one to lay down until released at home, will have to be retaught with slight distraction, and then taught with higher distraction. Then in a new place at a distance from the action, and lastly in the thick of things.
Its never going to happen on its own with age, its daily work.
The good thing is it can be rewarding, and fun for both you, and her.


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## organicthoughts

Sounds like you have the makings of a great hunting dog.... Meaning she is environmentally driven. To me, this is a great attribute.

But, she may never be the type of dog that does well in dog parks. She will probably be better in a pub/restaurant type environment over time if you keep taking her and setting the expectations and boundaries.

Expect her to chill out a lot by 2-3 years of age but you still need to socialize her to the settings you expect her to behave well in.

She should be fine to hike with. Just take her to areas that aren't so busy. Then it will be less stressful for you. Perhaps find a trainer to help you establish that she must listen. Look into e-collar training or expect to have a long line on her while she matures.

Oh and get into hunting and field work. Sounds like you have a gem on your hands.


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## Oyster

Thanks, guys! I get it on the training front and we've been working but I had a pro come in at some point on the leash training and while she didn't flat out say it, what I heard was that the pup was too distracted by everything to be properly leash trained yet. She did recommend a citronella collar for distraction training when the pup is ready, but definitely thinks that's at least a few months out... I had resorted to the spray bottle for crate training and separation time (she used to howl non stop when I left the room even for 2 min), and it was super successful but equally as heartbreaking... I'm willing to do what's right for her though.

We do down stays at home basically daily - maybe my next step is to take THAT outside, vs worrying the leash pulling... It rains here all winter so I haven't been antsy to take her out a lot...

Unfortunately, I don't hunt...  The times we've been out in the wilderness it's been a tough situation. Maybe the point is that I should take her out into those environments even though it's super unpleasant right now to get her used to it? My sense was that she was so worked up that nothing was sinking in but the exposure is relevant regardless? 

At daycare they say she just runs and frolics as long as they let her but when they isolate her she crashes hard which I believe because when she gets home at 6pm she basically sleeps until 7am the next day. One place (I no longer take her to) didn't force rest periods and she was crazy sick the next day. She has no idea right now when she's tired...


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## jld640

Sandy River Delta - Thousand Acre Park. Only the main trail and the parking area require leashes.

Lots of off-leash dogs with their humans and so much space, only the parking is crowded. Go early or go when it's raining. 84E an exit or so beyond Troutdale. Google it to get the map in your mind before you go. The turnoff is confusing the first time.


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## jld640

And remember, Gore-Tex is your friend.


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## Oyster

Hah, we've been there! With a friend and her frenchie. It was some fun but periodically my pup would get interested in a human or dog about 100 yards away and just take OFF! We sprint the last 2 blocks home when we run is our deal and I've clocked us at 5:00/mile pace and she's pulling me. I'm 43 yrs old. Her ability to ditch me far exceeds my ability to ever catch up. Maybe the trick is to just keep doing it with more and more off-leash time until we're good? I was afraid I was being irresponsible. We were walking back and the pups got lost for a few and the frenchie appeared, but my babe was nowhere to be seen for a few minutes... it was nerve wracking...


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## texasred

I just put young pups on a check cord and take them. You can buy a GPS collar for her, and it will give you some peace of mind. Just make sure your a long ways from roads, or its fenced in.


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## einspänner

Like others have said, there is no definitive timeline for achieving these behaviors as we're all working with different packages of energy, temperament, and trainability. So throw away the concept of where you should be and start working on breaking down those clear end goals into smaller, attainable steps and expect some regress along the way. 

So lets break down sitting nicely through dinner at a restaurant. Some of the behaviors she needs to work on are staying still, being calm, and being ignored (maybe the hardest for a vizsla!). If she can't do these at home without distractions there's no way she'll do it in a public setting. I didn't realize how constantly I was giving my dog attention at home until I brought her to a restaurant and couldn't provide that same level of attention. She is always allowed next to me on the couch, so having to sit on the floor, on leash was a skill she hadn't developed. So start working on rewarding her for small increments at home of being ignored. Put her on a leash, grab some treats, and something for you to do like reading a book. Every time she seeks your attention or tries to leave ignore her or calmly redirect her. Whenever she exhibits any kind of calming behavior (sitting, lying down, etc.) reward her with a treat. Remain calm as well as she'll pick up on your energy. You're not actively training a sit or down stay here, you're trying to teach her to relax and shut down all that mental energy. Keep the sessions really short at first. 

Another thing you can do is when playing with her, rile her up and much as you can, bring all your energy, and then stop abruptly. As soon as she follows suit reward her with more play time. You control when she gets to act crazy and when she doesn't, and she will learn to follow your cues.


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## gingerling

I have to say I enjoyed reading your post, your desire to have a fuller connection with your girl is really touching. I think you and she will have something very special, you just need to do a bit of work to get there, you're a bit too far out front of your desire, she needs to catch up. 

First, although I completely understand and appreciate your putting her in day care, recall that although it's a great socialization experience (and a great way to relieve your guilt at not being with her!), these groups are typically out of control fun for them...which means she's getting in touch with, and reinforcing her inner child. This, fun. Not good in restaurants or on the street, though. Keep her in day care, for sure, but also counter balance that with training time to teach self regulation. That's the key ingredient currently absent, and the one that prevents her from fully participating in those activities you're after.

You do this by working with her instincts...which is easy with V's b/c they're so eager to please IF they understand the expectations. So, first, don't put her in situations she's not ready for, like restaurants. Start by walking thru town..a lot...and get rid of the harness, it doesn't give you enough control...a nylon collar and a short lead are best. Sit down periodically on a bench and let her just stand in front of you (or typically be in your lap). She needs to get used to all that stimulation while simultaneously being gently corrected (and praised when she's good), so she learns what's expected and can practice it. You seem like a squish (me too), be careful not to be seen as a push over or weak, though. Once she understands "No!", as well as your expectations, you do her no favors by allowing the behavior to continue, she sees you as weak. They do not see our permissiveness as a good thing, dogs crave good leadership, it makes them feel strong and secure. You can discipline her humanely and without guilt.

Do this as frequently as you can, get her used to the environment as well as learning self control. This will take some time, but if you do it a few times a week and keep the goals small, you should be able to sip that glass of craft brew by the time the sun sets later. Just have patience and don't push it too fast. She'll get it, just not right away.

And enjoy the journey. She will change your life forever.


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## jld640

On more bit in addition to einspanner's direction regarding restaurants here; make sure you are setting your pup up for success. If it's cold and windy, sitting on cold concrete will be really unpleasant. Either wait for a sunny day or get her a sweater or put a towel on the concrete so it's a bit more comfy.

Regarding off-leash, I've never gone wrong following TexasRed's advice. If 1000 acre park was too much all at once, another location you might try is Minto Brown Island Park down in Salem. It has an off-leash area that's about 5 acres. Walk through the coffee cup crowd and the little dogs that congregate next to the parking area. Beyond them, you will see folks walking the field and bark dust paths with their dogs having a blast, but staying in sight and calling distance. I'd avoid the 9am and 5pm timeframes. 

Good luck!


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## texasred

Even though you don't hunt, the basic start of hunt training is good for any young dog. It teaches recall, and standing until released after recall. Also whoa training to stop a dog in its tracks, and can be used away from hunting . Add in handling, and you can send your dog right, left, or to the front.
It sure makes letting a dog run off leash a joy, instead of being stressful. 
Look up Steady with Style on the Internet. It's free and has articles on training. Look at the puppy training ones, as they will fit for the start of off leash work with a check cord.


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## Oyster

Thanks again everyone for all the time and advice! I'm working my way through researching GPS collars, ecollars, check cords, etc... Once the knowledge started to sink in that these dogs are just... different... I can start to readjust my thinking. I didn't think I was being a pushover relative to how I see other people behave with their dogs (really by a long-shot) but I can believe she needs something more than all that... I'll just have to learn how to deal with the collar properly before I swap out the harness so she doesn't choke herself to death before she learns the necessary lessons. Chimney park in N Portland is 5 acres fenced so I think once I get some more reading done, that'll be our spot to get some training done. We're pretty tapped out with what we can do at home. Hopefully in a few weeks I'll have some happy stories to tell!


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## texasred

> Hopefully in a few weeks I'll have some happy stories to tell!


Still please remember your not under a timeline. Your both learning something new together, and its more about us learning, so we are able to guide the dog in the right direction. I like the word guide, because you slowly convince them to do it your way. Lots of very short training sessions, with free time play mixed in, and tons of praise for done right. Its only slightly negative for done wrong. Forcing a dog to do something,or not do something, is only a very very small part of training.
I plan on pups trying to sled dog, and it taking me 3 times as long to do a short walk in any direction. Even when they try, distractions can get the better of them quickly. I know I going to have to watch them run like a madman without saying a word, when I would really like to have them recall at that time. But waiting until they are headed my way, before calling them will payoff in the end. I know they are going to crash into me with pure joy, wrap the check cord around legs, because I didn't lift a foot up in time. Your going to have days you leave the field smiling, and days you walk away scratching your head. Try and have a plan on what you will be working on that day, but also know some days your going to have to deviate. You may just need to work on something the pup already knows, if the step your working on isn't going the direction you thought it would. One thing that you always try to do, is stop any training session on a high note. If you get 2 or 3 okay recalls, and then a perfect recall. You are done with that training session. Love that pup up, and let them know how good they are. No matter how bad you want to try and do just one more , don't do it.


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## texasred

Oyster said:


> Thanks again everyone for all the time and advice! I'm working my way through researching GPS collars, ecollars, check cords, etc... Once the knowledge started to sink in that these dogs are just... different... I can start to readjust my thinking. I didn't think I was being a pushover relative to how I see other people behave with their dogs (really by a long-shot) but I can believe she needs something more than all that... I'll just have to learn how to deal with the collar properly before I swap out the harness so she doesn't choke herself to death before she learns the necessary lessons. Chimney park in N Portland is 5 acres fenced so I think once I get some more reading done, that'll be our spot to get some training done. We're pretty tapped out with what we can do at home. Hopefully in a few weeks I'll have some happy stories to tell!


 Ken (Willowynd Ranch) is a member for the forum. Send him a pm for advise on which ecollar/gps is the most reliable, and fits your needs. Training dogs for a living means he puts these collars to the test on a daily basis, and can tell you which one of the new ones holdup. I always loved tritronics, before they Garmin bought them out. Garmin changed what was a top of the line collar, into one that is not as reliable. Some people love Sportdog collars, but I have found they have failed me in the past, at the worst possible time. I gave one away because it would sometimes drop transmission to the collar, when the dog was still in in range. If your ecollar is not reliable, then your training is not consistent. I have heard good things about the Dogtra RT edge, but my old tritronics collars are still working, so I haven't personally used them. 
Jon Hann (Perfection Kennels) has some dvds on working with young dogs, and Training with Mo is a good book for anyone wanting to train their own dog. You will notice some difference in training styles, but learning both will help you in the long run.
Ken, Willowynd Ranch has always been willing to answer any of my training questions in PMs, and some on the forum.
Maybe one day he will decide to make a few videos too. Hint, Hint.

A good amount of my training supplies come from huntindawg.com (Ken), and Gundogsupply.com (Steve Snell)
Both will answer any questions you have on a product by email, and you don't get that personal knowledge from the big box stores.


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## gingerling

Glad to be of help.

You're at the beginning of a life long relationship, and it takes time to get to know your companion. I'd encourage you to take the time to really get in her head...they fairly invite us in...and really get to know her. I'm not a big fan of e collars or check collars or other forms of control..at least initially. They're very sensitive and very eager to please, if you've done your homework and gotten to know her, and then used that knowledge to train her, let her know what you're expecting and then practice it...you don't really need a lot of "Correction", and surely nothing that is punitive. The training I've done really is more of the human than the puppy, usually they misbehave b/c of something we've done. V's are wickedly smart, they're actually easy to train once the owner gets the hang of it.

All this does go easier with a V that's relaxed, so finding a safe area to let her off lead is essential. The chances of her running away from you are much less than you both being struck by lightning at the same time, it only seems that she'd take off. The issue is letting her off lead far away from the street or other hazards. The one piece of advice that's important is if you let her off lead and you think she's off somewhere, stay put. She'll come back to the last place she saw you, but if you try to find her, that's when you might actually lose her.


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## texasred

While I agree with some of your points Gingerling, I disagree with some of the others.
It just maybe our dogs are bred differently. If mine didn't run and chase everything that moved as pups, I would think they lacked confidence, or prey drive. A check cord only slows a pup down, and makes it easier to get one back to you. Its just a safer way to give a pup more freedom. While I agree they do know where we are most of the time, even when we can't see them. I would say its not 100% true. You can still run a small chance of losing one in the field, or out in traffic.


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## gingerling

My point wasn't so much about the nature of all Vizslas, it's about the owner's response to them so the Vizsla becomes a good citizen and a good companion. One can (and should) have a V with a strong prey drive and lots of self confidence and also be under good control. The two aren't mutually exclusive.


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## texasred

Maybe we just explain things differently. Bonding with a pup, and having them trust your actions, and reactions is always a must. You learning theirs is also going to payoff, and make training go so much smoother.
Just don't think I would be able to train my dogs without the use of any training tools. Yes, if they didn't become lost, get kicked by a horse for chasing them, or run into traffic playing, they would eventually come back to me.


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## gingerling

I never said "no training tools". The best training tool is always the relationship.


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## WillowyndRanch

Please don't read snark into the answers, though they likely can be interpreted as such, they are quite real in response.

Your pup is 10 months old. It is coming into it's own independence and will continue to do so. It is getting stronger, larger, and more agile. The longer you wait to insist on some level of control, the longer it will be - the harder it will be on everyone - and the more potentially dangerous it becomes regarding physical injury to gain control.

You see, I get these dogs to work with constantly. One can be loving, but firm. Owners are afraid of hurting Pups feeling or taking away from the "spark" that they have. Trust me. There is plenty of spark. I believe in all four quadrants of operant conditioning, not the "positive only" approach that lands dog after dog after dog in my hands. We use "positive" methods, definitely and is our first tool to create the response we desire in a dog. But that will not make for a fully trained, high prey, intelligent happy dog. 

1. Whatever age they are when you ultimately decide to train them not to jump on people.

2. see answer #1, but to down stay.

3. Today. Tomorrow. Every day thereafter. We begin leash training at 7-8 weeks old. By 4-6 months they easily know heel.

4. When they are trained to a level to do so. We run dogs afield with other dogs, horses, ATV's off lead by your dog's age. It truly is when you decide it's time to train for it.




Oyster said:


> SO! Can anyone volunteer:
> 
> 1. How old before your dog could walk past someone on the sidewalk and not try to jump on them?
> 
> 2. How old before your dog could sit through a dinner or a few drinks on a crowded patio and not be totally ape-sh!t?
> 
> 3. How old before your dog could do leash training? (mine doesn't care about rewards when we're out and about - EVERYTHING is amazing)
> 
> 4. How old (holy grail) before your dog could go with you on a hike or to a park and go off-leash with your confidence? (Crowded with other dogs and humans or no)
> 
> Thanks so much!!!


You see, the concept is that training is done every time one takes the dog out to do anything. We are either training them to do something, or we are letting them train themselves to do whatever they want. Rarely are the two the same thing.

This means, that when goes on a walk, on lead, one uses all four quadrants of operant conditioning, not just "click-reward", if click reward isn't getting the response needed. 

This means if we want to have pup not jump on people, we use techniques to train the dog not to do so.

This means if we want the dog to sit quietly at the bar, we need to focus on training that ultimately builds up to teaching the dog to sit quietly at the bar - and that is not accomplished immediately if we are there to socialize and drink, because we will miss the timing and opportunities to train effectively. It starts with getting Pup to sit quietly at the table in the backyard, then the front yard, then the.... increasing distraction at each level until one can go TRAIN at the bar.

Off lead is accomplished first by a 100% reliable "on lead" recall. if you are asking at what point to introduce the lead, you're a long ways from getting there.

Finally, learn as much as you can about training. I understand the comment that the best training tool is the relationship, and that certainly plays a very large role. My opinion is the best training tool is knowledge. The second best thing is to focus on training, not on recreation. 

Best of luck!
Ken


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## Oyster

You guys are awesome - I'm so glad I stumbled in here.  So I'm getting myself a check cord, and I'm reviewing the videos and articles on that training, and a nice long lead (I had no idea these things came in 50' lengths - I just need to find some big open space without a lot of people, especially if we eventually land on negative reinforcement techniques because I think the people here in Portland would lynch me), and I'll certainly start with the positive reinforcement techniques, and I'll get consistent with it before I move on. I don't mind putting in the work if I know it'll produce results or at least rule out a particular method so I can move on with a clear conscience. I get it that my trainer's comments that, "she still has puppy brain" implying she just wasn't ready for basic leash training just aren't really... accurate.  I've read a few books and called in an expert when the standard techniques failed on some things, but I've got a Vizsla-specific book coming and a whole wealth of pointer training info online to review. I think my mistake here was thinking I got myself a running dog and not a hunting dog, so I've just never even read any of that stuff. I get it now though that she needs to be trained that way, because that's what she is, whether I hunt with her or not... 

That said, I'll take any and all recommendations on ecollars and gps collars. I'm wading through pages of reviews on amazon, and a ton of others online and the information is all a bit overwhelming, and the ecollar especially seems like getting the wrong one could be disastrous...

WillowyndRanch - I definitely take no advice as snarky. Even if it was, I'd happily accept the snark.  I think my question was worded poorly, but your answers help regardless. The answer is really, that Vizslas CAN heel by 6 months IF you train them properly to do so. Understand the question was probably skewed by advice from a trainer saying I probably just needed to wait until she was less 'puppy' and would be less distracted. Probably the guts of my questions would be, "is a 10 month Vizsla too 'puppy' for anything?" because it didn't smell right. 

I've been watching a friend with her lab, and there's such an obvious response difference - that dog will do ANYTHING for a treat. My girl will do a lot of things... with consistent training... if nothing else around is more exciting...


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## texasred

I have to say, I have never used a 50 foot check cord, and would think it would be harder to time a correct with one that long. But my pups start on them when they are weeks old, and your dog is bigger/stronger. If it's to long you could always cut it down to a appropriate size. 
I fully understand the training with treats not working with distraction away from home. But doing it at home helps a pup learn what you are asking, in a fun way. Just know you are going to have to use other techniques, to get the same results. But the pup already knows what's being asked of it, and has to learn the same rules still apply out in the world.


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## Oyster

I should've said I'm getting a 20' check cord for training and then a 50' lead for hikes so she could feel a bit of freedom while my anxiety about losing her reduces. (I'm still learning the lingo - two days ago I was just calling all these things leashes ) I think you said 30' there, but I figured (like you said ) I could always make it shorter. I fully expect 50' to be fairly unmanageable in a forest, but I'll be seeking out the open spaces where I can...


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## gingerling

I have a whole different take on this, I think you need to refocus your efforts on the basics... and b/c I think it's relevant I'll try again, and if you disagree I'll stop responding. I suppose that's just a part of the internet, so much anonymous advice, often conflicting. You get to choose what works best for you. 

I think there are 2 issues here that should be addressed to achieve your goals. 1) Basic training, like lead walking, heel, not jumping, and the all important recall, and 2) Your trusting her to be reliably obedient. Although she's still a puppy, at 10 months, she can reasonably be expected to be well on her way to accomplishing basic obedience, and as she does so, your trust in her should be increasing. Yes, she needs off lead time, but that's not the goal here, I don't think in and of itself it's of much value unless you pair it with basic training....if she doesn't know basic commands and you cannot trust her to be reliably obedient, the length of your check cord won't matter much. As I said earlier, I think your desire is getting a bit too far out front of her current abilities, and you and she need to help her catch up. I also do not think an e collar is appropriate just yet, most of the time they're misused anyways. 

What I would do is encourage you to do some very boring basic training... alone and in a group with other dogs and a trainer....around basic commands such as sit, stay, come, etc., walking on lead, heel, etc. I'd take her downtown and let her acclimate to the stimulation and reinforce her for being good, correcting her otherwise. 

If you go the longer check cord route, I'd recommend using it just for recall, the extra length gives her some space, you some reassurance, but mostly, it gives you the opportunity to correct her if she disobeys. Anything more than 10 or 15 feet won't allow that so easily. And using the cord to sorta give her off lead time is potentially dangerous, the lead can tangle up on stuff or her.

If any of this seems at all worthwhile, I'm also happy to take the time to talk about "Passive training", which I've used successfully for 25 years in training dogs easily. Let me know.


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## Oyster

Oh, yeah, Gingerling, I think we're basically on the same page... I'm probably just collapsing the plan a bit for brevity.  Here's a better sense for where my current thinking is (and realize I'm still reading a lot so I'm not really sweating anything for a few days at least).

We have basic commands at home. sit, down, stay, come, are solid if not 100%, even in the back yard. Down stay is good for 10-15, but we're going to start trying to get it to 30 min at home 1x daily, and maybe start to reduce the treats (not that she gets them every time now, but we can reduce, I think). Again, I've been comparing against my friend's bulldogs and labs and I definitely have the most obedient animal... until we get out and about. And that's even considering the way those labs snap to attention when there's food on the line. My pup could care less...

So, under distraction it all goes to ****. I get a couple of sits, but mostly I can't even get her to look at me (I know... not a good sign). 

SO, my plan is to 

1) The down-stay practice at home.
2) Head to a neighborhood park nearby that's fairly deserted during the day and work with on-leash commands there 5x a week for short stints (like no more than 10-15 min) and see how it goes. Start from scratch with sit, down, come, etc. Hopefully we get to where I can use the long lead for recall practice there and the check cord for some walking training.
3) Walk down the busy street nearby and practice down-stays 2-3x a week.
4) Head to 1000 acres or similar very large parkland with the long lead just to have little hikes and acclimate to the wilderness 1-2x a week.

In the meantime I have lots of reading about ecollars to do before I'd attempt to use one and even then, only if #1 is working and #2-3 and totally getting nowhere after a couple of weeks. I suspect that's going to happen... But I'm hoping it wont.

Any and all advice is totally welcome... This board totally needs sticky posts in the basics forum.


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## texasred

Ha Ha Gingerling, we do agree on somethings.
While I like ecollars, they are not used to train a command. They are only used to overlay a already known command. Used correctly, they are no more harm than your normal flat collar. They are the last step. Not the first,or even the middle.
Yes we teach dogs to recall from close to us, then some distance that keeps increasing. So I do agree more obedience is required, before a ecollar would come into training.
My last check cord was made Biothane, and I liked it a lot. Light weight, didn't tangle, and floated on the water. I sent it home with my daughters 12 week old lab puppy, so I only got to use it for a couple of weeks. Some of the cheaper ones tangle easier.


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## WillowyndRanch

If you need help figuring out the what, when and how of e-collars or any train ing gear, please don't hesitate to contact me via message, e-mail or call. I'm happy to help.

Ken Kuivenhoven


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## jld640

I wouldn't do 1000 acres with a super-long check cord. If you're hiking and she takes off, she'll have a LOT of momentum built up before the check cord yanks you both off balance. If she starts to play with some of the other dogs, the play is wide-ranging and everyone will get tangled. Just my $0.02.


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## Oyster

Thanks, Ken, I might take you up on that some time soon.

jld, I hear ya, and it's a concern, but she doesn't generally bolt, really... At least not unexpectedly. I'm thinking if we manage to avoid the largest populations, avoid regular hours, I only give her the slack she needs, and I use the harness not the collar (since it's not leash training anyway) we should be ok, but first I'm going to look for more isolated places. Open to suggestions if you know the area... Plus, that's step #4 - I won't start that right away.


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## gingerling

A couple of additional thoughts:

When you train, keep it both positive and simple, I think you're on the right track with a a couple of brief training sessions rather than a longer one. I'd encourage you to prioritize the goals, though. The "Down stay" is a fairly advanced, difficult task for an impulsive dog who hasn't quite mastered self regulation. The basics like "Sit" and brief "Stays" are good prerequisites. 

Remember that her frame of reference for being around other dogs in day care is "Fun" (read: Out of control). So, it makes sense that she's more obedient with you and then reverts to what she's learned when you're in the company of dogs. So, the issue there isn't "Training" (i.e. learning what the commands mean and then performing them), but rather that her obedience is contextual (i.e. obedience as a function of the environment). So, what you really want to do here is enroll both of you in a group basic obedience class, so she can start to associate you, the command, and the extra stimulation of other dogs that she's previously learned means she doesn't need to listen....to one where she learns to focus more on you and less on dogs. After she associates you in that equation, then you can practice in the dog park. But right now, it sounds like success is found in duplicating the environment that causes difficulty, and then working with her to overcome those learned difficulties, and a group setting with a trainer seems like the best and fastest way to accomplish that.

And lastly, the first rule of training is to never give a command you cannot enforce, so if you find yourself at the park or on the street and she's being naughty find a way to stop the behavior that doesn't also reinforce her disobedience. So many times I see folks calling their dog ("Come, spot!") when they have no way to ensure that, giving the dog the message that, at best, the command is a mere suggestion. Instead, it's better to get the dog, or just call it's name. 

More later...


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## Oyster

Thanks, Gingerling! I think the point re: environment is well taken, and I'm understanding now we need to break it down to do separate training in each, starting with...

1) inside the house
2) back yard
3) down the block
4) busy street
5) on-leash local park (with as few distractions as possible)

#1 I get reliable sit, down, stay, come with a few caveats (if I walk into another room she might break and we reset - in a 10 minute down stay she might break once depending on mood, etc).

#2 is a bit more variable - and here I'm certainly guilty of calling commands without guaranteed obedience. I think I knew not to do that when we started and when we got 'pretty good' I got lazy... But we're reset now and working on leash even in the yard in case I need to enforce a 'come'.

#3-5 we start today (though I don't expect really to get past #3 for a bit)

I think I understand now the concerns about the play groups... but ugh, how does she get the necessary exercise? Maybe I need to work with her on fetch - she's just had no interest... That said, I think she's not even ready for group obedience classes. We did one series when she was 11-17 weeks and it was pretty rough - it was like having a tsunami on a leash for 60 min. The instructor eventually stopped using her as an example of a 'challenging pet' because she was uncontrollable and I think making her look bad. I think at this point I need to slowly ratchet up her focus on me when we're outside. Even the front porch she seems to think of as part of the world where I am no longer king and commander - by the time we're 3 houses down, all bets are off. The advice I was getting up to now was that she was just too young and easily distracted vs. what I'm hearing now which is to just keep working with her in distracting places. I don't mean to derail the conversation with talk about the dog park - yes, it would be lovely to get there one day, but when I'm 2 houses down the street and no one is around, I have a dog that won't look me in the eye and settle down for all the treats in the world. That said, I can get a sit (albeit a twitchy one), so we'll just start building...


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## gingerling

I think she can and should be in play groups and day care, it's both great exercise and great socialization...and fun! Just be aware that you have to over compensate for the out of control experiences she's having there, which means you can't "Slack off" on your end. I'd also nix the down stays for a while, focus your efforts on lead walking and the all important recall, both of which you can do simultaneously b/c she's on lead. It's not the actual commands you're just teaching, it's the focus on you she's learning...the basis of all good training is attention and concentration on you. Remember all that useless junk you learned in school? The point wasn't so much to actually teach you to use the Pythagorean Theorem for daily use, it was to teach you to think. All those lessons all those years have a cumulative effect on the mind's ability to think. Same thing with dog training. You want to use each command to broaden her ability to think, adding new commands as she demonstrates mastery, so you keep her interested. That's the difference btwn a dog that does what it's supposed to do and one that will only do it when it hears the click.

Both of you guys should be in a group basic obedience class, the task might be finding the right one with a good trainer. Someone who says "She's not ready" is just an experienced trainer, those are precisely the dogs that need it! The longer you wait to have her learn "Focus + Dogs + You" the harder it will be for her to learn another pattern in those situations.


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## Oyster

One of the groups is very organized and they do a lot of group sits and various training throughout the day, but there's one that I think is much more of a Lord of the Flies kinda thing, and I was thinking about pulling her from that one anyway... 

We did more yard work this morning and she's pretty good out there, so I had her wait at the gate to the drive way and that was pretty twitchy so we slowly worked our way down and at the sidewalk she could barely hold a sit with me standing over her and she wouldn't look at me. So I think that right there is where I'm going to focus for a bit... There aren't other dogs or people around and we're already blanking out. (I'm trying to remember now if it's always that bad and it just seems better because we're usually moving, which is obviously more interesting to her, or if she was just getting tired and towards the end of what we could do that training session...)

I found these guys and I want to see how far I get now that I'm slightly less clueless, but I would get us a basic obedience package here before I tried tinkering with an e-collar on my own:

http://www.portlandoregondogtrainers.com/training-packages/

They aren't group classes (and it's REALLY not cheap) but they do the training in a park or somewhere with reasonable distraction. 

My group class experience was pretty overwhelmingly negative and I did a lot of research - it seemed the most highly regarded place, but within 20 min of being there she was in frenzy mode and no training was happening. Just a dull ache in my wrist from holding her leash... I feel like we need to train her up to level where she can be in a class like that and get something out of it. Honestly it wasn't great for my education either - week 2 they declared we should never let our pups pull on the leash ever again, and here's how to manage it... Net result was a few dozen frustrating manic pulls back and forth in front of the house, never getting more than 20 ft and after two weeks of that I declared defeat. So yeah, there might be better group classes, but I'm not sure how to find them and I'd rather go nuclear - the guys in the link above seem pretty serious. Maybe given that basic obedience package we'll be in good enough shape we can do an intermediate group class...


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## texasred

Most group and private classes are to teach you, how to teach the dog. Some instructors are good, and others not so much. Some only have one style of training, and others base it off the individual dog. Ask to observe a few classes at different places, and then it will be easier to choose one thats going to be the best fit.


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## dextersmom

Oyster said:



> I found these guys and I want to see how far I get now that I'm slightly less clueless, but I would get us a basic obedience package here before I tried tinkering with an e-collar on my own:
> 
> http://www.portlandoregondogtrainers.com/training-packages/
> 
> They aren't group classes (and it's REALLY not cheap) but they do the training in a park or somewhere with reasonable distraction.
> 
> My group class experience was pretty overwhelmingly negative and I did a lot of research - it seemed the most highly regarded place, but within 20 min of being there she was in frenzy mode and no training was happening. Just a dull ache in my wrist from holding her leash... I feel like we need to train her up to level where she can be in a class like that and get something out of it. Honestly it wasn't great for my education either - week 2 they declared we should never let our pups pull on the leash ever again, and here's how to manage it... Net result was a few dozen frustrating manic pulls back and forth in front of the house, never getting more than 20 ft and after two weeks of that I declared defeat. So yeah, there might be better group classes, but I'm not sure how to find them and I'd rather go nuclear - the guys in the link above seem pretty serious. Maybe given that basic obedience package we'll be in good enough shape we can do an intermediate group class...


We tried a couple of basic obedience classes and had some pretty negative experiences as well. Most trainers just are not equipped to deal with Vizslas, haha. After a lot of trial and error, we finally found our current trainer (+agility instructor/former owner & breeder of V's) and it was a match made in heaven. She taught me more in an hour than weeks of classes. My advice is to wait and find the RIGHT trainer. That's easier said than done... but I find asking the other V people in your area or just generally well-connected dog people (our dog walkers are super helpful with this sort of stuff) for recommendations is the best way to go about it. If you don't know them yet - you will! Don't throw a lot of money away on a class that might not be right for you. Also, go and observe a couple classes before you sign up. See what methods are being taught and how the instructor handles other dogs that are being difficult. I should have known our first class was going to be a waste of money when the trainer's approach was to ignore dogs in the class acting up. That only worked until Dexter broke her fanny pack, then her watch... :-[

E-collars are wonderful tools, in my opinion, but there's no rush. They are only used to enforce commands that have *already* been taught. They can also really mess up a dog if not used properly. I was really intimidated with the thought of using one initially (and teaching my dog as I taught myself) but they are pretty straightforward and simple if you do your research. I think educating yourself more on them before you go to a trainer for help with one is a good idea - it will help you feel more comfortable using one and you can better judge if the trainer is using them appropriately.


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## Oyster

Yeah, that's what I thought (re: classes teaching me moreso than the pup), but looking around the room at all the whatever-doodles calmly waiting for input... My thinking was that we were in etiquette training for young debutantes eager to know which spoon to use for the soup course, and I had brought a punk rocker to the party, hoping to learn how to kill a man using only her thumb.  That's when I called trainer #2 who gave me the 'puppy brain' excuse... I'm 0 for 2. Observing a class is a good tip. I have a good feeling about the latest group I'm looking at because they train service dogs, and everything else I've looked into seems to be focused on making sure your dog doesn't jump on the couch... I'm still finding things I can do myself, so I'll keep chasing that for a bit until I hit a wall. Thanks again guys!


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## dextersmom

Oyster said:


> I'm still finding things I can do myself, so I'll keep chasing that for a bit until I hit a wall.


I think that's a great plan. While you're doing that - network with the V people in your area! Other V owners will be a great resource when it comes to finding a trainer that's experienced with the breed. (Plus, it gives you people to commiserate with when your puppy is the crazy one in class!  )


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## Oyster

Hah, yes! I need to find them... honestly, I've never seen another Vizsla about around here, and people don't commonly even know what the breed is. And the trainers I've met so far clearly don't have much familiarity... I do hear a good amount of, "WOW, she's SUPER well behaved!! for a Vizsla, I mean... that's... great..." and "WOW, so for your first puppy you chose to get a Vizsla?!?!?!? On Purpose? How brave of you!!!" For real - that happened.  Screw'em. My dog is awesome.


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## jld640

There are more Vizsla people around than you think. I've never been to Chimney Park, but it looks like a good place to find some. Try going at different times on different days. 

As for check cord training, I'd look for an open field to minimize squirrels and other surprises. Champoeg State Park is a good place, even if it is a bit of a drive for you. It's typically not crowded in the mornings. I don't know about the afternoons.


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## gingerling

I think you should pick your training battles carefully. Having her "Sit" might be too much for her, maybe just standing calmly as folks walk by? Don't get too far ahead of yourself (and her) here, there;s a lot to be done, but if you just take it one command at a time, starting with the easiest for her and working your way from there, the chances for success are greater. No mater how you do this (or with who), it's going to take time.

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that training will go much easier if she's relaxed, does she have any canine friends (of any breed) you can invite over and maybe let them play in the basement or other enclosed space? Off lead doesn't need to be in a park, any place where she and her friends can get into it with each other (as they do at day care) is a good thing and serves basically the same function. 

Finding a trainer is like finding a good person..it takes time and experiences. She might need some individual work before going into the group, many trainers will use e their own dogs to provide a level of controlled stimulation to help her learn how to stay focused in the presence of others. The site you linked seems pretty intense (and yes, expensive). I don't think either of you are quite at that level.


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## Oyster

Hrm, I didn't really think there was a level below 'sit'  But it's the calm part that's the problem, not the sitting. If she gets up there's spastic darting around in every direction. I'm at the end of a dead end - if we're out in the middle of the day on a Monday, most likely there's no one walking past, no cars, and really nothing meaningfully different (to me) than the back yard, and it's still plenty of stimulation to make her forget I exist. I was thinking maybe just the environmental difference is enough once she's through the back yard gate, so I was considering tying her up to the front porch while I sit there and read (and no doubt occasionally go untangle things). Maybe if she has 10-15min of that, she can be calm for a sit, and maybe if she manages that, we can get a few houses down... I'm continuing to manage my expectations downward. I get it that she needs to be setup for success. I just need to find the path towards getting her responsive and even remotely calm in other environments.

She has one friend that's still fairly new and... she just doesn't calm down as a result of those play dates... she'll literally party it up until she pukes. On full days of daycare (she gets one of those a week) she's pulling all the way home, eats and drinks like a lab, and then sleeps until the next day. But last week her buddy (literally, "Buddy" ) was over and she was up until 2am jumping on the poor dude. I cuddled her into submission a few times but then he'd get up to stretch or whatever and she'd go nuts (non responsive to anything but physically grabbing her). She doesn't know how tired she is - she's still a baby... and she got over-tired and couldn't focus (and normally in the house we're pretty solid). Anyway, they have the yard to play in, but I haven't tried working with her while she's playing... In the past she's been reasonably responsive while playing with another dog in the yard. Mostly... I'm just trying to switch back to the mindset of consistent 100% of the time if I give a command, she follows it, and that probably isn't going to happen with another dog around right now.

Maybe I don't know what you mean by 'relaxed' - I've seen tired, but not while stimulated. And standing on the sidewalk in front of the house with no people or dogs or squirrels is pretty incredibly stimulating. There are times she's SO tired she really kind of blanks out - and isn't so crazy... i.e. this am she got up WAY early to go out and did her stuff in the yard and then just stood there blankly like she didn't know wtf she was... I think that wasn't a good time to train... 

Maybe I'll take a short vid of tomorrow's training and figure a way to post it (or a link to it). I suspect a 2 min clip will be worth 10 pages of me trying to explain what I've got on my hands right now. I've been researching trainers and I think I have a line on someone with Vizsla specific knowledge... The link I posted was really the nuclear option and I agree I'm nowhere near ready for that. I'd have to accept I'd be putting my baby into military school and I'd have to be in there with her, and no one wants that. 

I appreciate everyone's patience!


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## gingerling

Yes, post a vid! 

There is a level below sit, it's just standing there with you. "Sit" is a complex command that requires her to understand the word, and then regulate herself (that's the hard part) so she actually performs. Standing there doesn't require performance, she does that naturally. When she tries to thrust about, you can correct her (and reward when good). So she's learning regulation, that;s the key here to attention, she has to be able to calm herself. 

V's typically play until they crash, but they DO get tired before. If you've let her play or have exercised her or played with her yourself, she's more relaxed (even if she doesn't seem so). Also, you haven't mentioned any use of the crate. Does she get crate time?

Let's take a look at the vid...


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## Oyster

Got it - ok, we'll give that a shot. I've done a bit of tries when I was still working the leash training I was being told to do and it was only successful for short periods, but then we started trying to walk again so maybe that was the mistake... walking before we were... hrm, standing.  The theory is to get her to stand by my side calmly, and not bolting about, yes? Should I be insisting she focus on me? That's really what seems like the biggest issue to me - she just can't (won't?) look at me. Sitting she does practically automatically once she realizes I won't let her go anywhere... (this is probably what the vid will help clear up)

She's at daycare today and she's burnt after, so hopefully I'll get some video done tomorrow. We've got friends coming by later so it's possible she'll be pretty burnt tomorrow too but we'll at least give it a shot.

Crate training has gone through ok. She likes it fine in there and I can tell she thinks it's a safe place (though sometimes under the coffee table is a go-to because she knows it's harder for me to get to her - I've learned how to not let on it's nail clipping time until I've got her in hand). She knows, "go in the crate" and she eats all her meals there, occasionally naps there, always is in the crate when I'm out of the house (4 hrs a couple of times but mostly 2 hr max). Early on we had some settling issues whenever I'd leave her alone but that seems to be dealt with. If I'm not in the room she might whine a bit but she always settles after a bit. She might get antsy and chew her bedding, but I've gotten a feel for when she's tired and when she isn't so if I need to crate her when she's not I take the good stuff out and give her a strong chew toy... So yeah, it was a big deal getting that done, honestly, so I could leave the house without worrying that she'd eat my house or hurt herself (since taking her with me hasn't been super successful). 

That said, last week we had company (a friend and her dog) and it was TOO exciting. Around midnight she still wouldn't settle so I tried putting her out, and I made the mistake of assuming after a few minutes she did her business so I brought her in and crated her. After refusing to settle for 10 min (which is VERY odd for her) she peed the crate right in front of us...  Too much excitement and too many strange people around at a time when she was WAY over tired... My bad - I should've gone out with her and watched... At home my guard isn't up like it is elsewhere, but given the distractions I should've treated it more like an outing. First accident indoors in probably 3 months.


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## gingerling

The theory (or goals) are: 1) Focus and 2) Self control. They're interrelated. Without them, training is impossible.

Recall you're working against her history of being out of control at day care, the only thing she needs to "focus" on is all the excitement, no people involved.

Go to the store and get yourself some roast beef....really rare and the stuff without seasoning....or some chicken and boil it to cook it.... Rip it up into small pieces and take it with you and she when you go outside. Use it to get her attention and reward her for watching you (believe me, once she smells the meat she will), for standing there, and for walking calmly...she'll likely be watching you and jumping up (move back quickly!). The goal here isn't so much to get her to be the perfect young lady, but rather for her to start attending to you. When she does that, the session is over. Don't go to far here.

Let's see the video, and maybe a before and after, too...


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## Oyster

Ok, so the quality is poor, trying to manage 3 things with two hands it turns out is hard, and amazingly she decided to be on her best behavior today but see if this helps clarify.

First one is in the yard - not bad but the sit sometimes needs the reinforcement of me walking up to her and looming a bit... Next we're on the sidewalk in front of the house - usually she's pretty crazy by now, but she's relatively well behaved here. You can see it's possible for me to get her attention (though it rapidly goes elsewhere) and there's some pulling and darting about. Typically I can't get her attention at all... Not sure if the work we're doing is helping or she was just blinded by the first sunny day we've had in about two weeks...

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bw2VhkMkfK1ccnJKOFliUmxkQ2c&usp=sharing


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## Spy Car

Oyster said:


> Ok, so the quality is poor, trying to manage 3 things with two hands it turns out is hard, and amazingly she decided to be on her best behavior today but see if this helps clarify.
> 
> First one is in the yard - not bad but the sit sometimes needs the reinforcement of me walking up to her and looming a bit... Next we're on the sidewalk in front of the house - usually she's pretty crazy by now, but she's relatively well behaved here. You can see it's possible for me to get her attention (though it rapidly goes elsewhere) and there's some pulling and darting about. Typically I can't get her attention at all... Not sure if the work we're doing is helping or she was just blinded by the first sunny day we've had in about two weeks...
> 
> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bw2VhkMkfK1ccnJKOFliUmxkQ2c&usp=sharing


Intended gently. Looking at the two videos, it looks like your commands could be clearer. The first "sit" is nearly unintelligible. Several "commands" are proceeded with "OK," as in "OK...come!." 

Not sure if you use OK as a "release word" (or not), but—either way—get rid of OK to keep the command word clear, sharp, and unambiguous.

I teach both a "stay" and "wait" commands, with nuisances to both, but it seems to me you may be confusing the dog using both command words. Also, give the hand signals and vocal commands once (together), not repeatedly. The response to "sit" (second video?) was really slow. The more clear and consistent to are with expectations, the better you V will do.

Bill


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## Oyster

No need to be gentle with me - I can take it, and the advice is valuable, as is your time, so thank you. I use wait generally but had too much going on and slipped with the stay.  It's mostly consistent but she's so much more receptive to the hand gestures that I do tend to mumble until she misbehaves and then I stand up straight and get close and she's much more receptive.

I've been using OK to break - good point, I do kind of just say ok all the time... I must be totally confusing her... Again here the hands do more work than the words, but I should be working tighter to keep them together and unambiguous.

She's slow with sit out in front of the house - she has trouble focusing the further we go from home base - that's what we're working one...

I'll have a friend help me with a vid tomorrow and I think we'll make a park run so it should be more demonstrable.


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## Spy Car

Oyster said:


> No need to be gentle with me - I can take it, and the advice is valuable, as is your time, so thank you. I use wait generally but had too much going on and slipped with the stay.  It's mostly consistent but she's so much more receptive to the hand gestures that I do tend to mumble until she misbehaves and then I stand up straight and get close and she's much more receptive.
> 
> I've been using OK to break - good point, I do kind of just say ok all the time... I must be totally confusing her... Again here the hands do more work than the words, but I should be working tighter to keep them together and unambiguous.
> 
> She's slow with sit out in front of the house - she has trouble focusing the further we go from home base - that's what we're working one...
> 
> I'll have a friend help me with a vid tomorrow and I think we'll make a park run so it should be more demonstrable.


Tightening things up on your end would IME help the training a good deal if the videos are typical. This would serve to help give the V an unambiguous understanding of what you desire. Hand signals can be used with or without voice commands (and vice versa), but if using both try to give them simultaneously. Once.

Clarity and consistency win. 

Bill


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## Pecan_and_BB

Oyster said:


> No need to be gentle with me - I can take it, and the advice is valuable, as is your time, so thank you. I use wait generally but had too much going on and slipped with the stay.  It's mostly consistent but she's so much more receptive to the hand gestures that I do tend to mumble until she misbehaves and then I stand up straight and get close and she's much more receptive.
> 
> I've been using OK to break - good point, I do kind of just say ok all the time... I must be totally confusing her... Again here the hands do more work than the words, but I should be working tighter to keep them together and unambiguous.
> 
> She's slow with sit out in front of the house - she has trouble focusing the further we go from home base - that's what we're working one...
> 
> I'll have a friend help me with a vid tomorrow and I think we'll make a park run so it should be more demonstrable.


Couple of things I noticed:

If your dog is in a wait or stay situation, don't ask them if they are ready to be released (of course they are!), just issue the release command as other talk to your dog can spoil the release command when they are first learning.

When she crowds the gate on you, why are you in a hurry to get her to sit? Patiently wait her out with no commands and no correcting at that moment, when she backs off and puts her focus back to you, praise and reward her big time. Do this for your doors to the house, car, wherever as these Vs are really smart and catch on quick that they aren't going anywhere until they're calm and focused on you.

When you issue a command and she completes it (timing is crucial) you should be marking the correct completion with a "Yes" or "Good" along with your reward so that your dog associates the correct behavior with the command. Be extremely consistent with this one and don't muddle it with additional talk at the beginning when she is learning ie: Command, Mark, Release.


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## Oyster

Thanks! Yeah, I think I can see my constant chatter to her isn't super helpful... (duh) I posted one more in front of the house with someone else filming - my issue (I think) is that all this stuff works so well inside and almost as well in the back yard, but once there's some distraction she gets REALLY willful. This last example is actually the best she's been (this was after a few hours of playing with other dogs) in front of the house, and see how hard it is for me to get her to look at me and not run towards the person with my phone? There's a treat in my hand the whole time. I'm going to try the suggestion of boiling up some chicken and see if she cares, but so far her interest in food or any treats I've been able to conjure up has been really limited and under distraction non-existent. When I clip her nails she won't even take treats freely given - she just sulks and waits for an opportunity to squirm away (which, now that she's a bit bigger and I'm a bit more experienced she doesn't get)... 

I'm basically planning on just continuing the basic obedience in front of the house, and then 3 houses down (where currently she's a raging maniac) and then down in the park a few blocks away (assuming step by step we make progress), but I guess I'm just looking for confirmation that's a sound plan.


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## gingerling

Ok, I looked at all 3 vids. Both of you are actually do quite well. I think your expectations might need adjustment. She gets it. She just needs more time practicing, and one thing at a time.

Outside: Bait her with that roast beef from the deli counter I recommended. And that lead is way too long, you don't have control over her. If the goal is to get her attention, don't do recalls with her, just stand there with her, baiting her as she looks at you. You can do recalls later when she's learned to watch you. Smaller leash, one hand thru the loop, and then take about a foot in the other hand and use that hand to correct her by pulling sharply on the lead to get her attention.


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## karendm

Very interesting Oyster. Thank you for posting the videos. I don't have any valuable insight to give you as my Vizsla is only 5 months but I do have similar issues when we go somewhere and everything else is so new and exciting, it's hard to keep her focus on me. I'm learning a lot through your post and everyone's replies.


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## Pecan_and_BB

Just watched the 3rd vid. Looked like her attention was on you for 75 to 80 percent of the time.

Gingerling is correct, short lead (6') where you have control with 2 hands. And I don't mean to harp, but what's the rush? No need to push her or put your hands on her or she will learn that she doesn't really have to listen to you until you use your hands in that manner.

She wants to go and see your friend with the phone? Short lead, wait her out, she will focus back on you when she realizes she isn't getting any closer to her goal of making it over to him. Once she looks at you in that instance, why can't her reward be a walk over to him for a sniff and a pet? At that moment, the reward of saying hello to a stranger for her is way more appealing than a treat, so use that as your reward. But remember, Command, Mark, Release. So whatever you use as your command to gain her focus, use it once and wait her out. It may take 10 minutes for her to do it, but you have to wait her out. The minute she turns her focus to you, Mark the behaviour "GOOD!" "YES!" or whatever you want but be absolutely consistent with your Mark. Then Release and let her go see your friend since he's far more valued reward than the treat.

Have you done any targeting with her? If you haven't, I would start in the house with some frequent targeting work so that she gets used to following your hands and body motion and she takes here queues from your movements.

I don't think she is as mis-behaved as you believe her to be. She looks to be doing very well and she looks calm and relaxed with you.


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## Oyster

Thanks all! Part of my question here is what SHOULD I be expecting, because all I've had for comparison at this point are labs and frenchies and such, and their owners all give me advice like it never occurred to me that I should train my dog... Getting unsolicited parenting advice from someone with lab that just sleeps all day makes me feel all kinds of murdery. 

I'll switch back to the short lead - I was working on the sit/wait/come in the hopes of getting us out hiking or whatever without such fear of her wandering off, but I get it that we're not really ready for that yet.

I'll work on my patience too.  I have a limited time we can be out there before she really checks out on me (it's really interesting to see how tiring this work is for her - 10 min working like that and she comes inside and naps), and in the past I have waited 10 min and gotten nowhere... Well, I usually get a sit at the end of a taut lead in a minute or two, but she's historically been happy to stay there and watch the trees sway for (afaik) ever vs looking back in my direction.

Not sure I know the term, 'targeting' specifically, but I have just started doing walks around the yard off leash with treats, patting my left thigh and trying to keep her in position. 2 months ago she wouldn't do it but she's pretty receptive now if I move reasonably fast and keep changing course. Yesterday we did some test runs down the driveway and I lose her about half way. So yeah - more focus work out of the yard...

@Karendm - glad this is helping someone other than me! I feel like I'm taking up a lot of people's time so I'm glad it helps others...

Ok, off to the deli for some roast beef!


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## Pecan_and_BB

Oyster said:


> I'll switch back to the short lead - I was working on the sit/wait/come in the hopes of getting us out hiking or whatever without such fear of her wandering off, but I get it that we're not really ready for that yet.


If your goal is off-leash hikes, I would start a "Whoa", "Stop", or "Whup" command. As our late fellow poster REM would say, this is the most important command for our Vs. There are a few different ways to train for this command, so do a little research, try a couple and see which one works best for you. Some here use what's called a whoa board, I used a bath mat in the house to start. You can then move outside and train for it in multiple environments and go from there. For expectations? A reliable whoa in all off leash situations may take more than 6 months depending how responsive your dog is and how many different situations you are training for it. For example, Pecan (who is 10 months) has a very reliable whoa in our 2 acre yard, and in the field / on hikes, however she is not trustworthy or reliable in areas with larger groups of people or when she is chasing/playing with other dogs, so every time we are in those situations, we work a little on the command to reinforce (maybe 5-10 min) and then go about our intended business. I'm expecting it will still take another 6-8 months for a reliable whoa to develop with her in those other scenarios. 



> I'll work on my patience too.  I have a limited time we can be out there before she really checks out on me (it's really interesting to see how tiring this work is for her - 10 min working like that and she comes inside and naps), and in the past I have waited 10 min and gotten nowhere... Well, I usually get a sit at the end of a taut lead in a minute or two, but she's historically been happy to stay there and watch the trees sway for (afaik) ever vs looking back in my direction.


Our Vs are very smart, ie: a taut lead means she knows exactly where you are......at the other end. 
Keep in mind as well, their field of vision is closer to 250 degrees compared to our 180, so unless she has her back to you, she more than likely can see where you are in her peripherals. Don't rule out some anxiety here as well where if she's in situations that she doesn't feel you are confident in her abilities, then she will not be confident either and listening to you can take a back seat to her anxiety. Redbirddog has a blog post on this somewhere that you might be able to search down here in the forums.



> Not sure I know the term, 'targeting' specifically, but I have just started doing walks around the yard off leash with treats, patting my left thigh and trying to keep her in position. 2 months ago she wouldn't do it but she's pretty receptive now if I move reasonably fast and keep changing course. Yesterday we did some test runs down the driveway and I lose her about half way. So yeah - more focus work out of the yard...


Go to youtube and search "dog target training". It's a good technique for having your dog follow your hands and body language. Once you have the basics down, you can teach "Left", "Right", "Forward" and "Backward" commands and signals for off-leash along with targeting other objects like "toy" (she'll touch her toy), "me" (she'll touch you) etc....

Looks like you are headed in the right direction already, but hope some of this stuff helps. All of this stuff we talk about doesn't need to be done in long training sessions either, just 2 or 3 successful times and then go about something else.

It's difficult to compare to Labs, as you've found, because they have such a massive food drive it becomes easy to gain their focus. With our Vs, we have to be a little more creative in what we use. We have to figure out what they value highest in the moment and use it to our advantage. 

With Pecan, I couldn't for the life of me get her to drop a bird after a retrieve. For her, there WAS NOTHING better than having that bird in her mouth, so I had to use a bribe of another bird that she liked more. I had to figure out which bird she valued most (which ended up being Chukars) and so when I would train for retrieval and "Drop It", I could use any bird I wanted for that as long as it wasn't a Chukar. So, retrieve and drop a Pigeon for me? GREAT! I give you a frozen Chukar (frozen solid bird from the freezer is too cold in her mouth after about a minute so she'll drop it and we'd reset for another retrieve). Pecan loves carrying sticks on her leashed walks. So if Pecan is heeling for me? GREAT! She gets a stick to carry. She starts to pull? No more stick for her. Of course, this breaks down when she sees people because greeting new people is of much HIGHER value than a silly old stick so the rules change. Pull towards people, no greeting. Heel while walking up to people, mark it and release for the reward of the greet. Pecan will now drop birds, dead carcasses, or pretty much anything at my wife's or my feet and rarely does she get the frozen chukar anymore. The leash walking is still hit and miss and is still a work in progress since environments change so much and saying hi to new people still makes her lose her marbles more often than not.


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## gingerling

I think there's a difference btwn expectations and goals. Goals are where you want to be, in your case hikes and off lead at the dog park. Expectations are best when they're based on her actual current performance. When you're training her, if you're in the "Goals" part of your head it will feed both your anxiety as well as your discouragement, you'll be focused on what she doesn't do rather than what she can. Stay with her actual performance, which really is quite good, She (and you) seem to get it. The glass is half full, as they say. 

I think you're getting some good advice here, but let me emphasize that a lot of the work is for you to be able to appreciate what she already knows and her abilities to fairly reliably demonstrate that. The way you move forward here from expectations to goals is by developing trust in her. That's why I like the idea of baiting her with roast beef so you can see she'll reliably focus on you there at the end of the driveway. Keep your sessions to that 10 minute mark so she's still "in the Zone" when you stop and it's positive for both of you, and you can start to develop trust in her reliability.


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## Oyster

Thanks again everybody! I feel like I've got a handle on what to do and where we're going and it is VERY much appreciated. I wanted to give an update just because I got so much help I feel like you guys should know how much you've helped.  

We dropped to 1.5 days a week of daycare/playgroup stuff. Now that the good weather has returned (the sun comes out here April 1st and stays out until October when it goes dark for the winter) she burns some energy on her own in the yard (sometimes just sitting in the sun watching the bugs/birds/grass), and we've been working 2-3x a day for about 10 min each on non-daycare-days. 

All of that really helps tire her out so we have a lot less twitchy anxious days locked indoors while it rains itself into a mud puddle out back and the in-out process is WAY less stressful when she's not covered in mud. Plus I'm more attuned to what she needs when she IS twitchy. I got some antlers, actually, which were spendy but take her FOREVER to chew up (and at almost a year, she chews through things REAL fast now). Oh yeah, and she loves them.  That and the roast beef Gingerling suggested for the high value treats are kind of saving my bacon here.

We've been doing a lot of different things training-wise. Loose leash walking is pretty good these days IF there's not a lot of people about. When she does pull, I stop, and she immediately (usually) comes right back to me. If she's amped up, she'll circle back to me and immediately walk forward again and pull. I'm smarter than that... (barely) so sometimes we play that game a few times before I REALLY get her attention. We do that work hardcore when we walk to daycare because the last block is on the main drag and she knows where she's going and she's super amped in the morning. So high value target = good training time. It takes at least 15 min to walk those 4 blocks. Sometimes longer... 

We've also gotten deadly serious about our door manners - no door opens without a sit. And at least half the time it's a wait until release. Pretty reliable. Sometimes it takes a minute.

Out in the yard we practice her shadowing me - her shoulders behind my left knee. Random direction shifts with Left and Right commands. We do those commands walking too - I want her to know it for running. She sort of gets it, I think... It's great with treats except for the time it takes her to eat (such a dainty eater!). When we get down the driveway it breaks down still. That said, she took off down the block, and I was able to stop her with a WAIT and she responded to COME, so... was that a win? Maybe but it was scary. I did get her a marco polo thingie for her collar... Hopefully I won't need it.

Also in the yard we do a sit wait and I cross the yard (sometimes where she can't see me) and wait random periods of time and do break, come. (I use break now instead of ok because as someone pointed out, she hears ok constantly) That's super reliable now and we added 'jump' for the very low pvc hurdle I made for her. 

Also in the yard we started fetch just last week. Today we had maybe 6 reliable fetches in a row and that felt good - she's getting it, at the very least. 

30' leash and harness and we go to the park - I sit there and read while she explores and I periodically call her back to me. With the deli meats she does at least 8/10 recalls (and the rest have me dragging her back to me). I feel good about it considering the environment. Obviously needs more work though. 

Lastly, we've done a few trips to happy hour where I have one drink and she has a little something off the dog menu (gotta love Portland) and there's super limited people around but she's dealing with it... fine. I just assume the more we do it the more she'll eventually learn to deal.

AND I've figured out that sometimes when she's twitchy, it actually just means she needs a nap. And she isn't inclined to nap in a room I'm not in. She's no even super psyched to nap without being in physical contact with me, but I've found it to be a legit source of happiness for us both to crate her from 11am-12:30pm (for example) if I am unavailable for snuggling during that time. 

I'm getting there! Thanks again everybody!


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## nymeria

That sounds awesome! What deli meats are you using? I haven't found something tempting enough for recall training yet.


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## karendm

That's great information Oyster! I'm glad things are going well, it gives me hope! Our girl is 6 months old and we've been working with a trainer since we brought her home at 9 weeks. She's doing really well but "walking on the leash" is a work in progress as well as "recall" when she's playing with other dogs. As my trainer keeps telling me, I need to work with her everyday and be very consistent. She also tends to be a lot more excitable than other dog breeds! Here's a picture of her in a "Stay"


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## Oyster

I've used both roast beef and turkey with equal success - they're both 10x more desirable than any dog treat I've bought... I don't know if it's just because they're awesome or if it has helped that I've never given her any human food... I still use regular jerky treats at home and even in the yard but once we're on a walk they're useless. It's still hard to hold her attention if a dog or person is nearby - mostly if we're on a busy block I just try to get her to sit and if I'm lucky, pay some attention to me while people walk past. Success there is dependent on her mood... The cool thing is that everyone in Portland seems to get it, and when I'm clearly training they don't stop to coo at the cute puppy and get her (even more) worked up.

That's a cutie, Karendm, thanks for sharing! Yeah - it's every... day... and it does pay off but man, it's not easy to be that consistent. I finally dug in my heels about sitting and waiting for release before any door opens, and it took about a month of in and out 5x+ a day before she started doing it consistently without my demanding it, and still we have our moments where she tests me, and I think she's smart enough to know when I just want to go to bed, already...  Anyway, if you get a reliable recall while she's playing with other dogs, let me know because you'd basically be my #1 hero at that point.


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