# Breeding gundogs



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Although I'm not a breeder, I do like following bloodlines.
This is article that was written on Elhew bred pointers.
The qualities they should have, and why some believe a outcross can put brains on big running dogs from other lines. Also how line breeding leads to more uniform litters.

Even though the article is on EPs, I think it translates to other pointing breeds.
As a fellow hunter, what do you look for when searching for your next pup?


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

link?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

SuperV said:


> link?


http://www.superiorpointers.com/outcrosses.html


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

some from the top of my list - excellent OFA reading on both sides ( these pups will hunt their entire lives ) Longevity is a good clue 2 hidden illnesses - size I just get males & like a mature pup in the low 60#s - broad chest - suits where and how we hunt - Titles mean the breeder does work 2 the hunting side - homework makes you smarter !!!!!!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

REM Those are all great starting places in a search, but what makes one litter stand out above the others to you.
Sometime ago I changed my stance on hip ratings. I would rather see a fair hip rating in one of the parents, than excellent in both, but a higher numbers of hd in siblings, uncles, aunts and so on. I was hard headed, and not easily swayed to thinking fair was still good for breeding. It took not only hours of research, but orthopedic vets that specialize in rebuilding hips, and knees to change my way of thinking. It was just hard for me to wrap my head around that Fair is with in the normal range.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

TR - GOOD ? - PIKE has a X - good OFA on his parents - I just start at the top ! - the #1 ? you look 4 - the QUAILITY of the BREEDER !!!!!! does not just apply 2 gun dogs - you ask ?'s - they ask ?'s - but if you do not know what 2 ask - you just lost - the 1st thing you do is visit the breeder or send someone that knows what 2 look 4 - the 1st time you visit the litter - REASON goes out the window ! fact of life !!!!!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I'm a sucker for a dog that covers a field with gusto, and slams on point.
I've watched some dogs that have a slower, more methodical way of covering the field. Its not a full on run, and it just does not get my heart pumping.
While both dogs find birds, given the choice I would pick the dog with style every time. So I look for parents that have that style, in hopes that they pass it on.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

TR - I'm with you on that POINT - my grandfathers EP's were pure style !!!!!! cover a field - but I LOVE my V's - once the nose is on POINT - they have no clue where their body is - 180 deg azz move - the nose never moves - down -n dirty is what you get with a V - may V - breeders should have vids - how a pup works a field - LOL !!!!!!!


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

TexasRed said:


> I'm a sucker for a dog that covers a field with gusto, and slams on point.
> I've watched some dogs that have a slower, more methodical way of covering the field. Its not a full on run, and it just does not get my heart pumping.
> While both dogs find birds, given the choice I would pick the dog with style every time. So I look for parents that have that style, in hopes that they pass it on.


Getting in gear for hunting season, so I had to check in. I like this thread and I feel that my general attitude towards owning a sporting dog has changed over the 5 years of experience I have with my V. When I first went into the purchase of gun dog. I just wanted a healthy pet. I read all the posts and did the research that puts the fear of God into you; over your entry into dog ownership. 

Now that I have spent 5 good years with my Vizsla and 3 full hunting seasons. He was born in July so the first year was training only. I would put health certification just a bit lower on my list... I know I might get flamed for this, BUT style and a hard charging birdy dog is just so cool. Maybe I will change position as more time passes. At this moment in time I have been fortunate to have a healthy and EZ keeper Vizsla. I absolutely love his temperment and love even more the looks and comements we get when walking together. BUT a hard charging line bred, ground eating, birdy machine..... That is true justice to a sporting breed.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

> I would put health certification just a bit lower on my list


With some homework you stand a better chance of both hard charging, and health certificates. I say better chance, because nothing in life is a guarantee. Your just trying to put the odds in your favor.



> my general attitude towards owning a sporting dog has changed over the 5 years of experience


I think that happens to most of us. What we want in a dogs abilities, changes over seasons spent in the field.


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

It's hard to predict the future. 

Choose a breeder who has a history of breeding to, and producing healthy V's with hunting titles, including their own dogs. Look carefully at the pedigree on both sides going back a few generations. When evaluating a litter at 7-8 weeks over multiple days, look to the pup that is the most out going and energetic. See who howls and cries the most when food is brought out...you want the most sensitive nose and the most articulate dog, they are reasonable predictors of hunting ability.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

It all depends on what you want from a dog. Health clearances aside, (which are important in our breed, especially when it comes to hips) if you are looking for a trial dog, make sure to go to a breeder that is breeding for the trial game in mind. Hunt tests, same thing. 
One thing that we have taken into consideration for our breeding is the range and "power" a dog has. I feel, that God gives a dog it's range and run. I can't teach that, or make the dog range more. So, we wanted to breed to a powerful, big running dog. I'm guessing that we will have some very nice big running dogs.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I think you can encourage, and even enhance the big run in a dog that has it. But you can't make a big runner, out of a medium range dog. 
JMO I'll go a step further, and say that Hunt test dog breeding programs need the occasional field trail dogs added to the mix to keep the range they have.



> See who howls and cries the most when food is brought out...you want the most sensitive nose and the most articulate dog


The lab pup that I posted just a little about on the forum (daughters pup) was hand picked by me. We threw ducks for each pup to run out to, and held the other pups back. One of the pups that I passed on right away, was one that was too vocal. The last thing you want in a duck blind is a dog that yips throughout a hunt, and it yipped the entire time it was another pups turn. On its turn it snatched up the duck and took off to hide with it under a boat. The one I picked was excited and bounced at the other pups turns. On its turn he charged hard for the duck, and brought back his prize to show it off. The other pup was fine, just not a much gusto. I went out there not wanting to pick the crazy one out of the litter, but next to crazy.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Look at the set of the tail of this 4 week old pup. High up above it's hips. This is one of Bailey's granddaughters. Both the sire and bitch were out of hard charging large hunting field trial dogs. The high set of the tail lets the hips flow with long strides to cover ground. The lower the tail, the slower and more labored the run.

Love this picture. Perfect.

RBD


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## Ksana (Mar 30, 2013)

redbirddog said:


> The high set of the tail lets the hips flow with long strides to cover ground. The lower the tail, the slower and more labored the run.


RBD: very interesting observation. Is this one of yours based on your extensive experience? My boy's tail is often up and he indeed has the great ground coverage and his desire to hunt is just crazy. However, I was told the preference was for the level or lower tail position.


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## Ksana (Mar 30, 2013)

I personally prefer hunting over show-only lines. Conformation is important, please don't get me wrong, but I know several cases when the vet certificates were bought to demonstrate the faults were accidents (e.g., for a missing testicle, undeveloped teeth, etc.) I also found the field test judges doing a better job preserving this wonderful breed while conformation judges sometimes missing major faults (e.g., under- or over-shot, etc.). 

Ideally, I would like to see the parents to have both field and conformation tests done (approved by one or more recognized organizations), but the field work comes first. Saying that my personal observation is that show-only lines are much calmer and many are disinterested in surrounding smells and hunting. So if one is looking for a pet or a show dog only, these pups would be a better match. 

However, overall I believe it is better for the Vizlsa breed to be able to do what it was bred for. Hunting. 

My personal preference for the OFA hip testing for parents is either is Excellent/ Good or Good/ Good. 

Pedigree is important. I check the Vizsla Pedigree database for both parents and also run test mating and inbreeding calculations for a potential puppy.

'Power' as V-John has suggested is great for the Vizsla breed, but not for a first time V-owner. I can tell you that as a first time V-owner who ended up with a NAVHDA Prize I (112 out of 112 points) young dog, with such a huge desire to hunt and power that I feel I am constantly catching up. He figures out the training patterns and sequences, anticipates the next move and otherwise definitely keeps us on our toes. I guess, my question is whether it is possible to have a powerful dog with very high desire to hunt and who runs wide and fast that would also be a calm companion at home suitable for living in a city?


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Ksana,
Here is a classic book I highly recommend. He talks quite a bit about where the tail base is located and the physiology behind it. Makes a ton of sense.

Bailey also got the 112 out of 112 at 8 months old. I knew and was told I had "a good one." One out of a hundred or more I was told..
Take your adventure as far as you can. It is a great ride. Now at 7 years old, Bailey just gets to be my hunting buddy. Both of our testosterone levels are lower, but we still have tons of energy for the hunt. 8)

Happy trails and trials,
RBD


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## Ksana (Mar 30, 2013)

redbirddog said:


> Here is a classic book I highly recommend. He talks quite a bit about where the tail base is located and the physiology behind it. Makes a ton of sense.


Thanks! I will try to find and read this book.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

A couple of things. 
- The man that has influenced me the absolute most as far as training dogs is concerned is Maurice Lindley. Great trainer and a great man. I would highy recommend 

http://www.gundogsupply.com/training-with-mo.html

I also have Delmar's book, and it's good too, but a bit older needs a bit of updating. 

If you are on facebook, I highly suggest joining Mo's facebook group "SteadywithStyle". Great training topics and great training discussions. 
This method works great for vizslas because of it's gentler corrections and the ability to let the dog figure things out for himself. Vizslas, as we all know are wicked smart and this method really allows for the ability to let them think on their own. 

Power - Absolutely, you can have a calm dog, who runs like **** in the field. Our little bitch, Sis is a calm wonderful girl in the house. She hangs out all day, plays with the other dogs, but when told to chill out she does. 
But when in the field, I would absolutely put her down against any dog as far as range and run and wouldn't be embarrassed. She definitely has wheels. So absolutely it's possible. 
As far as training scenarios, yes, you need to change it up. They are smart dogs, sometimes too smart. So keep thinking and stay steps ahead of the dog.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

TexasRed said:


> I think you can encourage, and even enhance the big run in a dog that has it. But you can't make a big runner, out of a medium range dog.
> JMO I'll go a step further, and say that Hunt test dog breeding programs need the occasional field trail dogs added to the mix to keep the range they have.


Completely agree. You can hack them in, but and you can do some things to push them out, or make them run out, but when it comes down to it, God gives a dog it's range.


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## Ksana (Mar 30, 2013)

V-John said:


> Absolutely, you can have a calm dog, who runs like **** in the field. Our little bitch, Sis is a calm wonderful girl in the house. She hangs out all day, plays with the other dogs, but when told to chill out she does.
> But when in the field, I would absolutely put her down against any dog as far as range and run and wouldn't be embarrassed. She definitely has wheels. So absolutely it's possible.


You have had/ trained more than one dog, correct? So my question to you is: do you think this "**** in the field/ calm in the house" temperament is the result of a) Sis being a female dog; b) breeding program, or c) good training?


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

A GREAT POST - GREAT reply's - what a CAN of WORMS !!!!!!!!!!! LOL - the AKC sets the conformation standard - breeders breed 4 this standard - in the show ring the judges are getting smarter - they want a show & go dog - tail placement ? just want a pup that holds their tail HIGH - know how 2 use it when going on POINT 2 offset momentum- or change in direction - just like a GREAT lab in the water - it is a RUDDER !!!! RANGE ? starts when you get the pup - let them out there - as owners lets not worry that much !!!!!!!!!


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Do Not fall into the Madison Avenue View of things !!!!!!!!!! You look at PIKE - I look at the SHADOW that says it ALL - 1 PROUD PUP !!!!! TRY AGAIN !


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

So my question to you is: do you think this "**** in the field/ calm in the house" temperament is the result of a) Sis being a female dog; b) breeding program, or c) good training?
[/quote]

Male or Female does not matter. Have seen both. It really comes down to individual dogs.
Breeding and environmental upbringing both play a role. There is no magic single this or that answer. As all people can have similarities, they also have differing temperaments even among siblings. One can be wound tight as a drum and the other a total surfer mentality (no offense to surfers, just trying to illustrate a laid back style of life, until the waves hit) 
The same is true in dogs. 

Ken


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Ksana said:


> I personally prefer hunting over show-only lines. Conformation is important, please don't get me wrong, but I know several cases when the vet certificates were bought to demonstrate the faults were accidents (e.g., for a missing testicle, undeveloped teeth, etc.) I also found the field test judges doing a better job preserving this wonderful breed while conformation judges sometimes missing major faults (e.g., under- or over-shot, etc.).


I'm confused in your post. You say you prefer show only lines to hunt over? Show only lines are not bred to hunt specifically - they are bred with conformation and show ring as the primary purpose, field or dual lines are bred with hunting in mind. Please clarify.

Thanks
Ken


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## Ksana (Mar 30, 2013)

I'm confused in your post. You say you prefer show only lines to hunt over? Show only lines are not bred to hunt specifically - they are bred with conformation and show ring as the primary purpose, field or dual lines are bred with hunting in mind. Please clarify.
Thanks
Ken
[/quote]

No way! I am saying that I would not pick a puppy from the show lines parents. My preference would be either with dual lines or hunting lines (with no observed faults as per the NAVHDA or any other recognized organizations records).


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

WillowyndRanch said:


> Ksana said:
> 
> 
> > I personally prefer hunting over show-only lines. ...
> ...


I think it's just semantics/parsing. "I personally prefer hunting over show-only lines." She means prefer-over, not hunt-over.

Bob


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

You have had/ trained more than one dog, correct? So my question to you is: do you think this "**** in the field/ calm in the house" temperament is the result of a) Sis being a female dog; b) breeding program, or c) good training?
[/quote]

Yes, I have. I foster dogs for Midwest Vizsla Rescue, have five vizslas of my own, and my girlfriend shows Irish professionally and thus we have quite a few dogs in the house. 
Temperament is definitely something that is a trait that is passed down, but much of it is a dog's training and enforcing the standards/rules that you want the dog to follow. 
We put a high premium on exercise and make sure to get our dogs as much daily exercise as possible. I think many people simply don't exercise their dogs enough and wonder why they are bouncing off the walls or are destructive etc. Many dogs just need an outlet for their energy. These dogs are bred to go all day, and without an outlet for their energy, many bad habits can start to develop.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

So true John.
Every time I hear my daughter say her pup's taking a step backwards, the next words are "Work is killing me." I think she is starting to hate when I tell her "Good dogs don't just happen by chance. They are a reflection of the time you put into them."


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

A gun dog doesn't take hours, 10's of hours or 100's of hours, but 1,000's of hours of bonding through walks, hikes, hunting and training.
Or at least that's my take on creating a great gun dog, once you have a great one to begin with. 8)
RBD


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