# Tail Docking...



## hobbsy1010

Saw this article recently and got me thinking about the 'pro's' & 'con's' of getting your 'V' docked or not....!
Docking has been banned in my country (Wales UK) since 2007 and we purchased our boy after this date. The only exemption being able to certify that the pups to be docked are from working dogs that can be certified and identified as 'Working' (hunting etc..)

When looking into the breed (V's) with a view to owning/purchasing a dog, we so wanted a docked working pup.

Not long after finally purchasing a pup from a 'Non working' litter with a full intact tail, he damaged the 'Tip' of his tail quite badly, and after many weeks of taped/bandaged up tail we could definitely see the reasoning for the docking of tail's with this breed.
He is now three (3) and constantly cuts the tip of his tail, from just wagging (even when simply greeting) and when out in the field!!
When his tail is damaged our house resembles the waiting room of our local A&E on a Saturday night (wall to wall Blood.. )
We often think that he would have been better of docked as the tip of his tail no longer has hair growth and looks lifeless :-\

http://www.northern-times.co.uk/New...call-for-end-to-tail-docking-ban-23032012.htm

Hobbsy


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## Ozkar

Ozkar's mum slammed his tail in the door as a pup. We thought we may have to have it docked also. But it healed up OK. Astro also has a lovely long tail as does Zsa Zsa (Hers looks smaller as it turns white near the tip and you almost miss seeing it's tip). We haven't had any issues with them so far, apart from door slamming. But in the bush there has not been an issue.

Having said that, If it were bleeding regularly, I would ask the vet to do it, as it would be more comfortable for the dog in the long run. As much as I love the full tail, If it meant a happier dog, I'd get it done.

Can you gain en exemption based on medical grounds Hobbsy?? Like, I have to get my tail docked cause my dad's a beer monster???


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## hobbsy1010

Poor Ozkar, getting his tail caught by his 'Mum' at such a young age :-\
Very Surprised she's still allowed 'Unsupervised Custody' ???  ;D ;D ;D

Hobbsy


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## hobbsy1010

When his tail does get damaged, which seems to be every couple of months lately, we wonder if it will get worse as time goes on, like the scenario in the previous link??
The vet doesn't seem to be too worried about it and Brook definitely doesn't let it worry him, so I suppose we are just rolling with it at the moment :-\
Like i mentioned in the previous post, wether it was just pure vanity on my behalf I always wanted a docked V. As things turned out we found Brook from a small 'Hobby Breeder' and that litter came undocked and hand on heart really 'LOVE' his full length 'Whipping Machine' and I think it is a big part of his personality which I would hate to loose.


Hobbsy


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## Ozkar

I call them Coffee table clearers Hobbsy............


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## redbirddog

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/11/reasoning-for-vizsla-tail-docking.html

RBD


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## hobbsy1010

Interesting read Rod.
With the damage to our boy's tail being very slight, like in the posts in your blog, many start off as light splits to the tail but often turn into something more serious!
Very difficult to treat too, often taking many weeks just to scab over if at all, as we have found.
We hope that our boy's will be OK fingers crossed and gradually become a bit stronger over time.

Hobbsy


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## Looney

I'm glad Laszlo got the 3/4 tail...i think it looks regal! 8)


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## WillowyndRanch

Intellectual Property Removed by Author


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## hobbsy1010

Just looking at pups and what dogs are about in the UK (like you do on a very wet Bank Holiday in the UK) :-\
Came across this beautiful girl called Copper and looked at the pictures/description of her and noticed her tail which is slightly damaged and may have to have it docked  

http://www.dogsblog.com/category/hungarian-vizsla/

Hobbsy


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## harrigab

Ruby's pal Truly had her tail docked a couple of months ago as she kept whacking it and damaging it, she did have an exceptionally long tail though and the vet was very agreeable to do it.


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## hobbsy1010

Just curious, what has it healed like (bold/scarred/wellcovered)??

How old is she?

Hobbsy


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## rebecca

My boy is docked. The breeder had all the pups docked as some were going to go to working homes. I'm glad he was though, looking into some of the injuries some of the dogs incur looks painful (


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## redbirddog

What is the "fine" in countries where docking is manditory?

What if Vizsla owners, as a community, just refused to comply and pressured the parent Vizsla club of the country to ignore the "AR law"?

What if they came to take your guns?

What do these things have in common? 

Sorry, one of those moods again.

RBD


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## harrigab

hobbsy1010 said:


> Just curious, what has it healed like (bold/scarred/wellcovered)??
> 
> How old is she?
> 
> Hobbsy


it looks fine Hobbsy, well healed, no scarring that I noticed. She's 14 month old and a working dog too.


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## hobbsy1010

RBD,
Here's an extract from the UK law side of things...


Breaking the law in England and Wales will result in prosecution, a fine of up to £20,000, possible imprisonment and a ban from keeping animals, in Scotland, the penalty is a fine of up to £5,000 and/or six months' imprisonment.


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## redbirddog

> Breaking the law in England and Wales will result in prosecution, a fine of up to £20,000, possible imprisonment and a ban from keeping animals, in Scotland, the penalty is a fine of up to £5,000 and/or six months' imprisonment.


Amazing. For docking a tail  

I'm sure having a gun is even worse. Slippery slope we are all on.

Anyone see or read "The Hunger Games."? Yes, we can be controlled more and more and more. :-\ 

Next question Animal Rights groups will ask. "Hunting dogs. For what purpose?"


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## texasred

redbirddog said:


> Breaking the law in England and Wales will result in prosecution, a fine of up to £20,000, possible imprisonment and a ban from keeping animals, in Scotland, the penalty is a fine of up to £5,000 and/or six months' imprisonment.
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing. For docking a tail
> 
> I'm sure having a gun is even worse. Slippery slope we are all on.
> 
> Anyone see or read "The Hunger Games."? Yes, we can be controlled more and more and more. :-\
> 
> Next question Animal Rights groups will ask. "Hunting dogs. For what purpose?"
Click to expand...

Even in Texas we have the clueless dogooders. They don't want us to have guns or hunt. Try to make it look like every dog owned for hunting is mistreated. Want to have more laws for owning a dog, than having a kid.
I personally think tail docking and dew claws removed should be a personal preference, not a law.


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## Ozkar

Just one more rule............and we'll all be safe! 


It is noticeable the change in the younger members of society, allowing things to be regulated and have their freedoms removed. Unlike a lot of our generation, who either fought in a war, or, fought hard to gain and maintain there rights initially.

Now, people seem rather apathetic in one way....... It doesn't effect me, so I don't care, yet in another, cannot stand to see or hear of others doing things which they either don't or can't do. 

It is why I have liked this forum so much. Everyone can have their say, hold strongly their opinion, yet be allowed to by others, regardless of being in agreement or not.

Some show dogs, I don't, but don't judge those who do. Some Field trial, I don't but don't judge those who do, some do agility, I don't but don't judge those who do, I train with a certain methodology, others don't, but I don't judge those who do or don't.

Some drink alcohol, I can't, so won't judge those who do. Some take illegal drugs, some take legal drugs, I would, but don't judge those who do. Some speed in cars, I try not to, but don't judge those who do. I don't pick my nose in public, but don't judge those who do. I might not shake hands with them though.... 

The Australian general population in the last ten years have started to almost blindly trust governments. Protest marches or rallies are rarely seen. We have become too soft. We have it good and no longer is there the general drive to maintain the rights we have. Gun ownership laws are one such example. The over use of speed cameras rather than education has been allowed to spread throughout the nation, with speed camera revenues accounting for large proportions of the state governments budgeted income. The draconian methods or police enforcement. The zero tolerance on speed, yet a contrasting 10% allowance in speedometer error allowed on a new car. 

We have more problems over here with erosion of rights than I believe most nations do. It's such a great place to live, apart from the myriad of laws which you need to thread your way through daily. I got a speed camera fine the other day in the mail. For Exceeding the posted 100kph limit, by 3 kph. No kidding............ It was obviously dangerous as it was on a 4 lane freeway with limited traffic. I must be stopped........ a danger to the community.

People seem willing today to give rights away in order to be wrapped up in little blankets and protected from the nasty things this world might throw at you. 


OK.....soap box dismantled for a while....do carry on please


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## R E McCraith

OZ - RBD ? are you runnig 4 office ? got my vote!


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## redbirddog

REM,

H. L. Mencken, as quoted in LIFE magazine, Vol. 21, No. 6, (5 August 1946), p. 52:



> "It is inaccurate to say I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office."


One of my favorite quotes about my relationship with the current ruling class in the US.

Everything in our world seems to have to take sides these days. Even our dogs. Amazing!

Dock or not dock? Hunt or not hunt? Spay or not spay? Crate or not crate? 

Freedom is hard. Being told what to do is MUCH easier. The "Tell me what to do and I will" attitude. That way I don't have to take the blame or responsibility if something goes wrong.

Freedom requires skills to take care of yourself and others around you that you take responsibility for. * Freedom requires knowledge, responsibility and control.* Take those away and you get the opposite of freedom.

Don't tell me how to raise my Vizsla and I won't tell you how to raise yours. Ask for my knowledge and I'll do my best, but the responsibility on how your Vizsla is raised in your responsibility and you should have that freedom. Not some regulatory agent using tax payer money to enforce some arbitrary rule or some Animal Rights group that would love to see the demise of the domestic dog. 

Happy trails and trials,

RBD


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## Ozkar

R said:


> OZ - RBD ? are you runnig 4 office ? got my vote!


Nah...I'm just campaign manager........RBD is the one who'd attract the votes........... I'm likely to be disgraced half way through the run to office for shagging my secretary. He would have had it coming though!


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## Looney

for shagging my secretary. He would have had it coming though! 

HE must have missed some important deadlines to deserve this!!!!!


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## redbirddog

Excerpt from the article Hobbsy1010 started the discussion around:



> "SGA chairman Alex Hogg recently had to take his daughter's two-year-old Hungarian Vizsla to the vet for tail amputation after the dog endured 12 months of painful problems.
> 
> He said: "Whichever way you look at this, there must be serious doubt as to whether having dogs suffer like this is in the interest of their welfare."
> 
> "My daughter's dog, Ruby, had a year of bandages and dressings to try to heal tail damage. When she tried to express her feelings by wagging the damaged tail, we had to clean blood off the walls where her tail came in contact with objects.
> 
> "In the end, she had to have the tail amputated at a cost of £300, which is a lot of money from a working person's salary.
> 
> He added: *"From what we are hearing, this legislation has caused more suffering than it was intended to prevent and needs to be looked at."*
> 
> Mr Hogg said that docking the tails of new born puppies was a minor and relatively painless procedure,"
> 
> He added: "All we can hope for is that people post their findings to the Glasgow University study and *that common sense will finally prevail*."


[size=10pt]Seems to me that Vizsla owners could actually make a difference if they wanted to. I know if the law came to California what I would be doing. Of course, I'm not a very nice guy.

RBD


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## Ms1234

My 2 year old V has a full tail. Last summer the tip of her tail got jammed in a door. It caused a deep cut that needed stitches. As you can imagine, it's impossible to keep a dog from wagging their tail...so that meant the bandage frequently flew off and when she whacked her tail on something, the wound would re-open. After a few months, the wound finally closed up but the hair has not grown back and the skin has become hard scar tissue. This happened almost a year ago now, but her tail still occassionally bleeds if she whacks it on something a lot. The stitches and treatment for the initial injury cost me $600 CDN. 
The vet mentioned that if the wound hadn't healed, they would have needed to dock her tail (at a whopping cost of $1000 CDN). The vet did say that trying to get the docked tail to heal would take a very long time and therefore it was an undesirable option.

If I had known how easily their tails can be injured, I would have opted for a V puppy that was docked.


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## Tina Bendzsa

I'm curious, it's perfectly acceptable (not illegal) to circumcise a baby boy, get a baby girl's ears pierced but illegal to dock a V's tail in the UK? I'm confused :-\


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## reneevanm

I think tail docking and dew claw removal should be left up to each individual breeder and no breed standard should dictate anyone to dock or remove dew claws "or else" they will be penalized in dog shows. The UKC's recently revised standards has a special notation advising that it will not discriminate nor assess penalties for undocked vizsla tails. This is a step in the right direction and it should be incorporated into the actual body of the breed standard.

I breed Hungarian Vizslas entirely from import euro bloodlines and they look absolutely gorgeous with their natural tails, this is my preference and it is not a hinderance in the field. My Vizslas hunt with still tails and the many reports I get from Hungary is that they hunt with still tails there too.


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## redbirddog

http://varazsvizslas.blogspot.com/2012/08/oppose-breed-standard-changes.html

Excerpt from this blog post today.


"Many pet owners and veterinarians simply don't understand the history and function of our breed and operate under the misconception that these procedures are cruel and done only for cosmetic reasons. They are NOT!! Check out the case for docking on the Council of Docked Breeds website as well as other information and cases on the website of the Council of Docked Breeds. In some breeds, cases may be made that some procedures are cosmetic such as ear cropping but in an active dog such as the Vizsla, they are necessary for the safety of our breed.

The Vizsla's tail is very thin at the tip and is just as likely to be damaged inside one's house as outdoors in the field. I am personally familiar with an undocked import from Australia, which had to have its tail amputated as an adult due to numerous injuries from hitting its tail against the walls of the house. This was Ozzie, who sired my 2008 litter. Amputation of a limb when an adult dog is much more serious and painful than when done as a 2-3 day old whelp. Likewise with dewclaws. Yes, there is pain when these procedures are done at 2-3 days but it is over very quickly and within a couple of minutes the whelps are asleep. Our standard should continue to advocate for tail docking and dewclaw removal. The proposed wording changes water down the requirements for docking and adds confusion to the interpretation of the standard. By not stating that a tail should be docked or that dews should be removed, it leaves things open."

Vizsla Canada Inc. has submitted proposed amendments to the CKC breed standard for both the Smooth and Wirehaired Vizslas. Unfortunately only members of the Canadian Kennel Club can vote on these proposed changes. To vote, go to www.ckc.ca and under Membership Services, select Publish for Comment to open the documents. The deadline for voting and for comments is October 1, 2012

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/11/reasoning-for-vizsla-tail-docking.html


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## OttosMama

Just something I learned last week talking to Otto's trainer - its somewhat related and I thought it was pretty interesting!

Dobermans - as we all know were bred to use as guard dogs - have their ears cropped - not only to improve their hearing, but also so that intruders have less to grab a hold of when the dogs attack. I'm sure most breeds that were bred for a specific function and have cropped ears or tail is for a purpose and not for a style or look.


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## threefsh

I still support docking tails and removing dewclaws, however, I just found this video on YouTube the other day which really made me think twice. If you have a dog that could possibly fall through ice into nearby water (during the cold months) I would highly recommend leaving dewclaws on your dog for their safety.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4XflsMEk-k


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## Darcy1311

All this stupid English law banging on about the docking of working dogs tails which has been going on without incident for many years, it's done when the dog is about 2 or 3 days old and they say is quite painless.....yet the liberal left do gooders in our country want it banning, while the country is awash in child sex offenders rapists etc etc,they even practice female circumcision in our country, behind closed doors but still under the label of cultural differences in our country......sorry for banging on but at the end of the day it's only the docking of a tail.... by the way Darcy is docked the customary way of the Vizsla, which is one third of the tail docked..


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## Darcy1311

In fact further to my last rant...the daft English law now states that I cannot enter Darcy into any recognised dog show, as she has a docked tail.....but its okay to have testicles or ovaries removed.....that's the dog by the way...the English ain't that mad ...or perhaps they are..by the way Darcy also had her dew claws removed at birth...


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## WillowyndRanch

Darcy1311 said:


> In fact further to my last rant...the daft English law now states that I cannot enter Darcy into any recognised dog show, as she has a docked tail.....but its okay to have testicles or ovaries removed.....that's the dog by the way...the English ain't that mad ...or perhaps they are..by the way Darcy also had her dew claws removed at birth...


Welcome to America. 
Ken


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## harrigab

threefsh said:


> I still support docking tails and removing dewclaws, however, I just found this video on YouTube the other day which really made me think twice. If you have a dog that could possibly fall through ice into nearby water (during the cold months) I would highly recommend leaving dewclaws on your dog for their safety.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4XflsMEk-k


on the flip side Ash, imagine the damage Ruby could've inflicted if she still had her dew claws..ouch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99E0SyfxK7k&feature=plcp


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## AcadianTornado

Here's Whistler's story about tail troubles...  ...and the moment I felt as though I was the worst V dad ever!

A few months ago, when he was about 4 months we were preparing to go outside in the morning as per our usual routine. So, we go into the hallway that leads to the steps that go outside. As I am putting my boots on, I've noticed that he is sitting down behind me. I am usually very careful to make sure that the door closes without him being caught up in it. That being said, there is about an inch to an inch and a half of space underneath the door and I never thought for one second that there could be an issue of him getting hit by the door because he was sitting besides me. As the door shuts, and as he is sitting besides me, his tail slides underneath that inch or so gap until that heavy door jams it between the floor.. the scream he let out was deafening! Imagine when you accidentally step on your dogs toes and he cries a bit... well, this was more of a ''I got my tail flattened by an anvil scream''.... To this day, when goes through a door opening and closing, he lunges out faster to make sure his tail isn't caught up.. his tail was swollen and kinked for a few days but it is now ok...


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## redbirddog

A bill they are trying to pass in the State of New York to ban tail docking

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/11/reasoning-for-vizsla-tail-docking.html

- RBD

From VizslaTalk:


> As the VCA legislative Rep, I ask that you please share this information
> with anyone you think might be appropriate ...
> What's next? Dew claws?
> What happens to Westminster?
> I have found through the years of sending letters about how this will
> effect vizslas that legislators try to use English Pointers as a reason NOT
> to dock continental pointer tails. Therefore, I do NOT give them that
> Chance - I Point out* that English Pointers and the continental pointers
> (weims, Vs and GSP) DO NOT hunt the same! English Pointer do NOT have to
> retrieve (as a general rule). They ONLY point from outside the bramble
> thickets. In contrast, V, Weims and GSP have to enter and retrieve out of
> brambles.
> * pun intended.
> ANYWAY...thoughts?
> Judi Ticknor


 Sponsor: Glick / Multi-sponsor(s): Boyland, Gottfried / Co-sponsor(s): Colton, Dinowitz, Paulin, Rosenthal 
Law Section: Agriculture and Markets Law / Law: Add S365-a, Ag & Mkts L 
A3428-2013 Actions
Jan 25, 2013: referred to agriculture 
A3428-2013 Text
S T A T E O F N E W Y O R K
3428
2013-2014 Regular Sessions
I N ASSEMBLY
January 25, 2013
Introduced by M. of A. GLICK, COLTON, DINOWITZ, PAULIN, ROSENTHAL -
Multi-Sponsored by -- M. of A. BOYLAND, GOTTFRIED -- read once and
referred to the Committee on Agriculture AN ACT to amend the agriculture and markets law, in relation to making tail docking of dogs unlawful
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, REPRESENTED IN SENATE AND ASSEMBLY, DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:
Section 1. The agriculture and markets law is amended by adding a new
section 365-a to read as follows:

S 365-A. DOCKING DOG TAILS; UNLAWFUL. 

1. ANY PERSON WHO CUTS THE BONE, TISSUES, MUSCLES OR TENDONS OF THE TAIL OF ANY DOG, OR OTHERWISE OPERATES UPON IT IN ANY MANNER FOR THE PURPOSE OR WITH THE EFFECT OF DOCKING OR OTHERWISE ALTERING THE NATURAL CARRIAGE OR LENGTH OF THE TAIL, OR ASSISTS, PROCURES, PROMOTES OR ENCOURAGES SUCH CUTTING OR OPERATION FOR REASONS OTHER THAN TO PROTECT THE LIFE OR HEALTH OF THE DOG AS DEEMED NECESSARY BY A DULY LICENSED VETERINARIAN, IS GUILTY OF A MISDEMEANOR PUNISHABLE BY A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS.

2. ANY PERSON WHO SHOWS OR EXHIBITS A DOG, THE TAIL OF WHICH HAS BEEN CUT, ALTERED OR OPERATED UPON IN THE MANNER REFERRED TO IN SUBDIVISION ONE OF THIS SECTION, AT A SHOW OR OTHER EXHIBITION IN THIS STATE OR WHO ENCOURAGES, PROCURES OR SPONSORS SUCH AN EXHIBITION, IS GUILTY OF A MISDEMEANOR PUNISHABLE BY A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS.

3. ANY DOG OWNER WHO IS INJURED OR DAMAGED IN ANY WAY BY A VIOLATION OF THE FOREGOING PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION, OR ANY NEW YORK ANIMAL RIGHTS ORGANIZATION, MAY INSTITUTE AND MAINTAIN IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THIS STATE A PRIVATE RIGHT OF ACTION, INCLUDING A PROCEEDING FOR A DECLARATORY JUDGMENT, TO OBTAIN REDRESS FOR SUCH INJURY OR VIOLATION.

4. THE PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION SHALL NOT APPLY TO ANY DOG OR PERSON WHO IS THE OWNER OR POSSESSOR OF ANY DOG WHOSE TAIL HAS BEEN CERTIFIED AS HAVING BEEN DOCKED, CUT OR ALTERED PRIOR TO AUGUST FIRST, TWO THOUSAND THIRTEEN.
EXPLANATION--Matter in ITALICS (underscored) is new; matter in brackets [ ] is old law to be omitted. LBD04563-01-3 A. 3428 2 S 2. This act shall take effect August 1, 2013; provided, however, if this act shall become a law after such date it shall take effect immediately and shall be deemed to have been in full force and effect on and after August 1, 2013.


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## Ozkar

We have laws against it here in oz in most states and have done for a long time. While I am not a believer in docking unless medically required due to deformation or injury, I am a believer in freedom of choice. I never criticise people who use an E-collar, no matter how lazy I think they are......  it's their right to use one, just as it should be their right if they choose to lop off that amazing piece of expression a dog has available.  An individuals choice and right it should be, regardless of who thinks what. 

Personally, I am finding this worlds need to wrap up every citizen in cotton wool and not allow them to make their own decisions or mistakes to be distasteful to the extreme. We are over regulated and media hype and interest group propaganda are a large proportion of the problem in my ignorant and uneducated opinion.


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## R E McCraith

PIKE is my 4th V - first to have his tail docked - after all these years in the field - the 3 before I would have them docked - dew claws removed ? with out a doubt - we hunt heavy cover and they end the day with less damage - AKC says this is confirmation ? no idea - but it works in the Field !!!! -


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## Rudy

Duh all of it"

policy and politics

Pathetic

the reasons why posted above me

like who does not get the grease gun fixed weeks hours old clean is mean 

none like a slug ;D

LOL


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