# Delaying teaching "sit" command



## treebabys (May 30, 2012)

We have bought a book about conditioning our hunting dog for the first year of its life. It was recommended on this site by redbirddog but I'm at work and can't remember the title. Anyways. ... In the book it recommends not teaching your dog the "sit" command for quite a while possibly an entire year. I guess this facilitates teaching the Whoa command later on. However I'm struggling with this idea because then I'm not having a ton of luck with the "down" and "stay" command. 

What are your opinions on this. Our puppy is 11 weeks old now.


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## Angie NG (Jun 6, 2012)

Bella is 13 weeks old, she is doing all 3 commands you mentioned. She sits now before I even ask her although I still have to make her sit if she is over excited if going on a walk etc. The down she picked up well and although she is doing the stay command it is a bit hit and miss so I have to work on that one a bit longer with her. I usually do it when I feed her, I make her stay where she is near her bowl until I say she can go and get her food. If she moves before I say I don't put her bowl down. She has learnt she will not get her food unless she stays. 
The down, I put the treat right at her nose then lower it to the floor and move it along till she lies down. Hope this helps.
I have to say I have never heard about not letting them sit for a while, that was the first command Bella did. Is there any reason not to? 
Repeat the commands and I'm sure they will happen, pups are like children, they all get there in the end. Some just take longer than others


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

If you teach the pup to sit they might try sitting while hunting in the field. I would definitely avoid the command if you want to train the pup as a hunter. It's very easy to teach "down". Hold a treat against the floor and let the pup try to get it. Sooner or later they will lay down... treat & say "good down"!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Sit was always been left till later or not taught at all on pointers that will be hunting dogs. Yes I do teach my dogs sit but I teach it with treats, and I make sure I teach them to stand in place. Because I pull up on their collar for them to stand in place, I never pull up on their collar for sit.
One of my dogs will be running a JR retriever hunt test next month. The difference in his training was to stand and look for the hand signal (right or left) at the whistle for the retrieve. Retrievers are sent out in a direction. Stop and sit to the whistle. Look at the handler for direction.
If my dog had been taught to sit on one toot of the whistle and he did it at a pointing test, a judge could look at it as him folding under pressure.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Observe the dog.. dogs will do things that feel natural to them. Sit is not one of those things. Standing is and waiting is.

Down is a useless at 11 weeks. Come to think of it, any command is useless at such a young age. 
As per RBD (because I was also inspired by his doctrine), I gave up on sit as well until later, much later. At that point he was sitting without me even asking, he figured, people feed him scraps only when he sits  

PS, If you want down, press gently but steady, with your thumb downward between the shoulder blades (Microchips are usually placed in that area  and end up traveling down toward the heart)


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## Suliko (Sep 17, 2011)

I honestly think all these basic commands can be introduced at a slower pace. I know most responsible dog owners are doing the "right thing" and training their puppies from the get go. It is a good thing. That's what we did with our oldest V. Sophie. But sometimes I wish we had more time to just enjoy her the way she was - extremely energetic and naughty - NONSTOP. It doesn't mean you have to let the pup rule your house - no  
With our little, 7-mo old Pacsirta it is a lot different though. I wasn't eager to take her to a puppy class and teach her "sits" and "stays" and "downs." I wanted to observe her and see her personality; see her instincts and how they work. My husband did remind me of how very strict we were with Sophie, and how very laxed we are with Pacsi. For about a month (we got her at 13 weeks), Pacsirta was allowed to BE. She was an extremely quick learner and needed very little correction. Once I decided to eventually do bird training with her, I knew I wouldn't teach her sit on every occasion. In fact, she only sits when the collar needs to put on (otherwise, she's so bouncy), before exiting the house (we exit first), and when waiting for food (otherwise we'd never be able to feed her). Interestingly enough, when Pacsirta is "waiting" on something, she will not sit but rather lay down. 
So, I suggest don't be too strict on teaching all the commands right away. There is plenty of time for that  I have to say, Sophie started responding really good to training around age 1. I mean, she knew the commands just chose to do them really well around that age


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Puppies learn so much from puppy games that their isn't a reason to be strict with them. If you want a bold free thinking dog then you have to let them learn some things on their own. Trial and error is wonderful for puppies. Dog training is for dogs. I'm not saying let them leave a path of destruction. Treat them for what they are, a puppy, You wouldn't treat a 2 year old child like a adult.


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## AKGInspiration (Aug 23, 2012)

So there is a saying that you will most likely screw up your first hunting dog... It still stands to be determined if I have done this or not... but I did teach Luna to sit really early on. So we not only broke this rule for her being a hunting dog, but also a show dog. 
The main reason people don't teach prospective hunting dogs to sit is as others mentioned, we don't want them to sit as default to pressure. At some point there will be some aspects of training a hunting dog that will do some sort of pressure... usually this is at the whoa stage. If you are teaching the dog to stand staunch when "whoa"ed the last thing you want is them to sit on this pressure. Also there is the other side of them sitting in the field.

So how did Luna turn out? Well i too taught her sit with treats, so she occasionally will sit in the show ring when we get to the free stack portion where I am holding a treat above and out from her head. Totally normal and I highly doubt people look that down upon it. A gentle lift from my foot or a pull forward on her lead has fixed this and she usually remembers and won't repeat it the rest of the show. So IMO not a big deal (for her) that I taught her sit ahead of time. IMO it is a very handy command for most dogs.

In the field, she has never sat, even when i have had to redirect/correct her for breaking etc. She is too into the birds and fired up to bother with a sit. She has never sat on point either. And when we taught "whoa" to her, again a simple reminder to stay standing and she happily did it.

In addition to sit she learned early on to stand still and "stack".. and "stand" "stand stay" are in repertoire too. But if you can control your dog early on with a nice stand and wait I would say given that you want to hunt, then try and stay away from sit. Every dog's discernment/differentiation level is different for each dog.. it's up to us to know what they can clearly learn and handle.

Heck some teach themselves sit, but if you don't add a word to it they don't really know "sit" as a command.. kinda just ignore it.


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

I made the mistake of teaching sit - even though I knew I shouldn't have. It happened so naturally and easily that I didn't fully realize until a little later in play training that my puppy was happily offering a sit if I moved my hand up in a sweeping motion. 

Then, when it registered that I did something I wasn't really supposed to do, I spoke to people in my Vizsla community and they told me I would just have to train "stand" with more focus and attention when the time comes for the show ring. So I calmed down a little. 

But not too long ago I was at a dog show and saw a Vizsla sit in the ring during a free stack. The crowd just gasped as if a figure skater fell on ice in the middle of the performance at finals. I couldn't believe it, this reaction! The handler looked so embarrassed, the judge frowned and of course the dog wasn't going to win the class after that. 

So now I'm trying to teach stand (holding the treat one way and standing to the side of the dog, in a free stack imitation) and sit (moving my hand differently and standing in front of the dog). It seems to be working but I haven't used a slip lead yet or tried to have her hold the stand (just making sure she doesn't sit).

My lesson from this - and why I consider it a mistake to have taught sit - is that it is the easiest trick for a dog to learn and the dog will sit _when in doubt_ as a default behavior. 

So, a question - should I continue trying to separate the two things in her mind or should I stop the sit altogether and maybe get a handler look at her and see how to fix my mistake?


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## AKGInspiration (Aug 23, 2012)

*veifer* I think it just comes down to your dog... if showing is going to be a big thing for you then maybe just go back to no sit... but it also comes down to practicing in show like environments like handling classes etc, so they see that show lead go on and know it's show time. And then learning your subtle cues about how you ask for a stack/stand. I always practice free stacking and standing outside the ring while we are waiting for our turn to help them remember. And I tried not to let them sit while ringside, I would ask for a stand again so again they are in the stand mode rather than sit mode. It's sad the sit made such an impact on that judge and crowd, I have seen it happen to the best of dogs and it shouldn't affect whether they win. Heck I have seen pro handlers having dogs sit while they are playing games with them in the ring. While *I* would never do this inside the ring, it's not the end of the world if you dog learns solid body cues from you for a stand/stack.

As I said Luna has sat in the ring maybe a handful of times over the course of many many shows... and at home I ask for sit for doors, food, toy throwing, asking up on the couch. And it really doesn't transfer much into our other venues at all. But if you feel it is a problem between you two and could cause problems in the field and ring then eliminate that command for a while and focus those efforts on stand/waits/stacks. Maybe I will make a video of what I do so you can see how I ask for stand. 

In the end it also comes down to just knowing your dog, and you. But don't beat yourself up over it, it happens. we all make mistakes.


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Hi Anna: Thanks for your response!

I think the reason the crowd reacted that way was because the judge just started walking down the line and was maybe one dog away when this Vizsla sat down. It was bitches 6 mths class, if I'm not mistaken and she just happened to be in everyone's focus right at that moment. 

It was the first time I saw a dog sit in the ring and that kind of a reaction. Of course, what went through my mind that moment was the fact that I "triumphantly" taught my own dog to sit despite knowing better. LOL. I would hate to get a reaction like this if I were the handler, but I figured it is a competition after all, and the best ones don't only look good but act a certain way too and sit isn't part of the program...

Right now we're focused on getting ready for run for JH in the next few months. As I'm new to all this, I decided to focus on one thing at a time and try to grasp it as deeply as I can. That's the reason I haven't used the show lead yet - but I'm keeping that "sit" issue in mind and "pre-training" the stand as I play with my puppy. So perhaps you're right and maybe I should just let it fade, although I doubt it will happen since it's so easy for her to sit

If you could post a video, that would be terrific!


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