# Can Vs do this?



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Bart Bellon with his dog Thor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxzTRfVgFJ0&feature=player_embedded

I think Vs have been used by the military as guard dogs - never actually saw anyone attempt this with them.

Interview by Michael Ellis with Bart Bellon 
found here: http://www.elpresa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28939

Interview highlights:
* *At what age do you start your puppies training?* Bitework, obedience? I start at 6 or 7 weeks. Not with bite training but with building the desire to retrieve, the intensity for the chase, the passion to use their mouths. I love a dog that is very high for the pursuit. I start obedience at 3 months or so, sit, down, recalls.

** Do you socialize your puppies in public?* No. I go only to the training field, in my car. If the dog is good then he does not need to go all these places, if he is afraid then you can make it a little better, but you can never change the fact that he is afraid. This is not the dog for me.

* *How do you choose a puppy?* I go to the litter, only the males, and I want to see puppies that are curious. They should want to chase and use their mouths. I throw something, like keys, and the good ones will go grab them, not necessarily bring them back, but they will get them. Then I take a very soft jute sleeve and let them bite.

* *With your puppies when do you start serious training?* I play retrieve games when they are young. I call this the observation period, from 6 weeks to about 4 months, when they start teething. During teething time I expect nothing from them, I’m not critiquing them. After the teething I start the orientation phase, from 6 months to about 1 year. The early bites I give my young dogs on a soft sleeve, with myself on a bicycle, I give the sleeve and I let the young dog pull me around carrying the sleeve. It is very important that the dog learn to breath through his nose, to breath with his mouth full. Some dogs cannot do this. After a year I start the routine training with no variables, this I call the determination phase. The dog only has one option and he learns what to do, later I introduce variables, choices for the dog. When he makes the wrong choice I use the electronic collar, at a low level, to direct him to the choice I want.

* *Do you use food for training your young dogs in obedience?*[/color] No, never. I hate the use of food. I want the dog working for me, with me, not for food. The ball or tug can be useful for motivation, but not too much. If you use it too much the dog is working only for the ball and your relationship suffers. Dogs also don’t learn well when they are very high in drive. I want the dog to submit to my will during the teaching process, then I can build him back up with motivation.


----------



## LaVidaLoca (Feb 20, 2012)

Interesting interview!! I have a book of a Vizsla breeder from Europe who also doesn't recommend doing training with a dog with treats for the same reasons which are mentioned by Bart Bellon. 

I wanted to avoid using treats too but I couldn't resist...I wish I could do completely without treats. I don't take treats on every walk we're going and I won't buy these treat bags people wearing on their hips.

We spoke to a trainer and he said that our pup is so keen on balls and retrieving and that we should use the ball as a motivation factor. 

Bart Bellon should see our pup. Even she's not a male but she's curious like I've never seen a dog before. If she doesn't know something and is a little bit unsure how to behave- she gets curious instead of getting shy or afraid. 
I think her curiosity is one of her main characteristics.I've recognized it right from the start when we've got her. And she loves to carry things in her mouth - most of the time she's trying to carry few things at once and she can breath through her nose while carrying. 

It's interesting that he starts with an e-collar at the young dog. From what I've read here is that most people don't recommend using an e-collar at a too young dog.

The trainer we've met is training a gundog too, a weimaraner and he trains with e-collar or with normal collar. I said I would like to avoid using an e-collar on my pup whereat the sister of our pup gets trained with an ecollar I guess....


----------



## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

Yes they can!
My Vizsla, Boone, could do everything in that video without the use of my voice through the use of hand signals. Vizslas are exceedingly good at this type of training. In fact, possibly too good. In Boone's case I almost lost him due to mentally stressing him too much, too young, at 14 months old. We had a couple of months of "coming down" and I learned not to train so much in that direction, and let him begin to go purely on his own instinct. It's a balance with a hunting dog.
What is not brought out in the video, or the article, is the application of pressure and release. To get a dog to that point requires a lot of mental pressure and intensity, and a dog can only handle so much in a given time frame before it begins to mentally shut down. Pressure, in the form of training, takes on a series of plateaus in which the dog is brought up, leveled off and then allowed to back down slightly, and then brought up to the next plateau.
In a pure hunting dog this type of training can have a negative effect down the line though.In order for a dog to successfully hunt it has to think for itself and not be dependent on it's owner/handler for direction. The dog dictates the hunt, the handler is along for the ride and to keep the dog safe. Too much control by the handler diminishes a dog's motivation and confidence in itself. The dog and hunter work as a team for and with each other.
I also do not use treats for the same reason that I don't use a choke collar. I can't apply the use of a treat in the field, nor apply the choke collar, once the dog is off the lead, so there is no reason to use them in the training environment. There is no reason to train in a manner that can't be replicated in the field. It would only create holes in a dogs development that would have to be corrected later. 

The eCollar can be used on a puppy at the same time a regular collar and leash are introduced and trained. The hazard is that most people have no experience with an eCollar and would not use it properly on a young pup. I highly doubt that either trainer in the video, or article applies stimulus to a young puppy until well after it has been tone conditioned, and that the eCollar is being introduced simultaneously with the traditional collar. These are professionals and have developed a system that works with as little correction as necessary to achieve a given result.
The eCollar will facilitate the extension of the leash later on in training when the traditional check cord is being introduced and utilized, which will put the handler about 3-6 months ahead of the game.


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Wow, Boone did that @ 14 months - same age as my Sam 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksrd9R4giEo&feature=related

The way I understand the pressure is minimal from the e collar on continuous setting. I've done something similar with the e collar but without distractions. 
I prefer to give in under moderate distractions and try again next time, but will drill him a little after the distraction is gone.


----------

