# The long retrieve, struggling.



## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

I've been pushing Ruby's training a bit lately, getting ready for coming pheasant season, but I'm struggling to get her to push out for a long retrieve on whistle. I give 2 peeps to send her out, 2 long slow peeps to send her out left and 2 short peeps to send her out right, (all with hand signals). I've been trying to use the normal 2 peeps with a forward facing hand signal to send her further out straight ahead but she stands and looks a bit confused. Am I overloading her on the " 2 peeps"? any suggestions are welcome.


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## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

You must also know the true killing ranges of a real shot gun not sky blue blasters

Its real life about 40 to 45 yards then the ability of the weapon really falls off. 

yes some loads matter even choke tubes 

But a true seasoned meat stacker takes the birds tight 

sky busting is not very productive :

and with a great auto loader by shot 3 your odds really begin to fall off Real life 






If its open grasses some sage I would use a 35 yard My Daughters once Horse lead rope

as I worked the younger mates at about 30 yards out I would whistle 2 short times with hand signals matching each gain the same

making my Mates take the 35 yard line max going side to side not straight out

covers the birds few are missed

walk slow let the dog work for you

pressing straight ahead at a fast pace the birds shread all around you

Having 2 back stops at the end of any push really helps as well the birds release far less with the supporting pressure there are back door stoppers and the Guide is working the mates and they feel the pressure and will hold tighter

This in part is why they created the E-collars and more

making the process faster and the mate knowing where the real killing zones are at.

Brush, trees, tall corn , even weather such as wind impact all of this all impact the real upland guide and mates

Once I have Baby Willow out about 38 yards I always bring Her In just a tad with a simple tug of the rope or a whistle command and followed when she looks back with a very Progressive hand command.

I have 13 whistles each have a tone or reason

but I will not sit on the whistle

It will over load the mate

Once you dump a few birds the learning curve really improves as well

and the rope work only works in the right type of grasses.

More Open fields are fair starting blocks

and make sure every baby step forward You Reward her in Praise and rubs good Girl

positive progressive verbal rewards make them learn so much more and so much faster

I am sure this did not help

Keep- the whistle few and try to repeat it short not overloading it and the hand commands the same and match it each dance out

even in your back yard will help your progression not hurt

Having some **** bird wings in your pockets sure wont hurt you as well

when they react to your command

place the wing in her face GOOD GIRL

Rudy has been a mayor player and help as well

a seasoned Vet can make a young dog a Champion

the picture I am showing is Max my prize black lab and sir Copper topper My Champ Red making the push and we are pretty tight this takes great communication skills with the gun and all working as a team we are pressing in on the birds there were over 50 **** birds in the push

The pic was from a far distance look at the dogs distance and look for a tall Blonde Nord who has the back door ;D

Raw real remote

Have some fun

this area 25 birds the norm 

Sorry yes you can overload the mates keep in the same game and with gains

then lead Her more To greatness

Here is my "Great Britt" Dandy Dan one day 8 lads we loaded there trucks and hands with **** birds

my German short hair Candy Cane is resting as well 

For a 10 year push I had 4 great mates loading and pushing us to more 

all 4 mates and breeds none the same a Brit, a Red/V a Black/Lab and short hair

Germans are great tough mates 

each had a different skill set I needed

I pray only one know

I reach my grounds a few more times For Reds 

I hope my pic in the push plays out my words

I am Da' Frankenstien far RIGHT in the picture : the pressure is on

Bang Bang is coming and were very very tight


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

Cheers Rudy, yep, makes a lot of sense what you've said, it's what the forum is all about when we get great experienced pro's helping us to get to the point of maximising our red pals full potential. As always, it's the hoomans that really need the training, not the pups


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## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

Harr I am not some fool or Goof

I took great risks

I am going but we are in deep prayer and consul and care 

I built me 50 years of extreme training blood and guts stuff

I am going in sections 

but this is about Reds and giving back not me

I wanted great folks to see the fight for life not the words or bolstering 

I still with Pride have My Pro Upland bird Guide Cards 

they make me fight on

they make me the fighter I was and still am

all those videos remote glaciers I was sick as **** one day flat out

my bro's urging me back to care and another shot

we went 13 days never saw a thing but Bears Moose and fish on on a steel deck 

we cooked only foods we earned

we laughed we shared

I told them one last time I will take the last picture well a short Asian guy did ;D

they love Cameras ;D

when we all 3 are safe and finished it

when I have Finished this adventure

We finished 

dented humbled it be

You just going to lay down and die?

No I am going to live trying

Your just going to live longer then me


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

With whistles I keep it easy. One peep means to look at me for direction. Repeated peeps means to come to me. 
Dogs get used to working in their comfort zones on retrieves. They run to that distance don't see it , then may do a couple of different things. Start hunting short of the bumper, look at you, or come back to you. You have to get the dog to trust your instincts. To know if you send them, it will be there.
This is what I use to get a dog further out on retrieves.
I get a white T post and drive it in the ground. Any placed or throw bumpers/birds will be with in a foot of the T post.
I start with short retrieves that the dog is comfortable with, then gradually add distance. This gets them out farther than their comfort zone, and lets them built a bigger one. When I was running this with Cash we got to 100 yards out before I removed the T post from the retriever drill.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

I think i could be getting it wrong in training with she has nothing to retrieve on long retrieves, maybe that's a factor do you think? Do you think that maybe I should let her have another season of beating and picking up when I shoot on beaters day and the walked up (rough shooting) days where she'll be marking my birds and can peg the runners?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Yes its a factor. Your building a bond and trust. Cash could have never seen the bird fall, but he trust me that its there. His trust comes from it always being there, when I say it is.
You can work on both with her this year.
Training is great, but dogs learn to mark downed birds on hunts by hunting. I've seen dogs that have only been trained on marks with launchers, not do so well in the field.
The reason is they were lacking real hunt experience. Other dogs are considered meat dogs. They have hunt experiences but not much other training.
It takes both to make a good all around hunting dog.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

cheers Deb, I think she's come on great this close season and with 2 weeks till we start I'm not gonna panic, what will be, will be. She's not gonna be a field trial dog, just a working hunt dog so finesse is not paramount (imo). I just hope I can do my bit well enough to give her the best chance to do her bit


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

It never helps to panic or push to hard anyway.
It all comes together over time.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Har - I love the whistle - 1 beep whoa - I just want the pup 2 stop & look at me - then it is hand signals - 3 beeps R here - without ? - voice commands R simple after they understand the command - hunt them up - we R at work - dead bird FIND - then it is hand signals - back - right - left or here - I'm old school - several posts on this forum about whistle commands - I like 1 beep 4 whoa - a pup that stops & looks 2 u for the next command is neVer in danger - 3 beebs the pup has 2 V at my side - a simple answer 2 a complex ?


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Pheasant season started this weekend at the club. We're going out on Wednesday morning, harrigab if you want to join us. This is Bailey's third year and I am hoping for some great bird work. We'll see if he remembers how to be a bird dog hunting ahead of me. I hope so. A long retrieve has been a strong part of his game. He will not give up on a bird no matter how long and really want to bring it back to me. Funny when the bird would go down over a ditch full of water. Bailey has learned there are bridges. He'll look both ways to see if he sees one. If he does, then it is down to the bridge, over, back and into the field and then reverse all that to hand the bird to me. Come on harrigab. You and Ruby can stay in the motorhome.
RBD


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bCbhxJvwHgk&desktop_uri=/watch?v=bCbhxJvwHgk

H VF ...so much to learn and explore


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Setting them up close to the waters edge is a Jr retriever training tip. Helps to stop the young ones from cheating, using the bank. My nephew is running a dog in the Master Nationals in Flint Oak this week. There is not much I haven't seen a retriever do.
I believe Har is training on land.
Retrievers are taught to run/swim straight lines.
Vizslas are more of a thinking dog than most retrievers.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Most of the Time VVe forget that in the field this a V's life - bred well & this is what the PUP VVill do !!!!!! HUNT = last time I took a sniff or marked a bird - PIKE was so far ahead of me - just a fact of life - back 2 basics - A PREY DRIVEN PUP - VVE just POINT them in the DIRECTION - work hard & train - the fact is this - VVill never V as good as your V !!!!!!!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

*last time I took a sniff or marked a bird - PIKE was so far ahead of me * 
So true REM. My dogs mark down birds so much better than I can.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Tex - THANK YOU - I did get off point on this POST - but if U use the V 4 what they were bred 4 - the rest VVill C the POINT !!!!!!!! LOL


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## Kevin (Dec 29, 2012)

We are lucky in that we do allot of training on the uni sports fields. Then, there is a cut to take us into the farm fields where we can work with pheasants, with permission from the friendly farmer. We are not allowed to shoot anything, but that’s fine as the main aim is to get Hegy used to birds and hunting them.

Retrieve training is just kept to 5 or 6 runs, all the same & hopefully showing improvement throughout the runs. The last retrieve is always brought back by me with Hegy in ‘sit stay’ & watching.

Started short at 1st with loads of play, no sits or retrieve to hand etc until he gets settled and I’m still not pressing for a retrieve to hand just yet, as it just becomes a bit too formal n boring for him ATM TBH. He enjoys that bit of play and being proud and prancing around.

We gradually increased the length of marks and we now settle for up to 45 to 80 yards. No hand signal is given for a mark that is going to be sent for a few seconds after landing. Just a quick look to see if the mark has been seen and then a ‘fetch it on’. 

Memories are given a hand signal and he is sent the second he looks down my line of mark from my hand. 

We are just starting blind work now, using wagon wheels at present and thrown blinds away from a marked that he is running onto.

He is only 1 year old (yesterday!!), so all I want ATM is for him to run straight forward to a ‘pick up’ - marked, memory or blind. The direction changes will come later as trust and training builds.

If Hegy is being stubborn or lazy, retrieving is stopped and obedience training takes over and the walking/run out never leaves the uni sports field. If he has worked well and tried, we go into the farmers fields and hunt some pheasants. I never let him hunt 1st. He’s learned to give some and then get some.

He will also bring back cold and crippled . Hegy is doing well with his retrieving and is where I would like him for 1 years of age.

I will train the blind retrieve up to 150 yards but expect it to be up to 100 yards in the field. With, marked and memories to 45 yards to 80 yards, but expect up to 45 yards in the field – I go a bit more in training.

Obedience work makes the back bone of a gun dog I think. If they trust and respect you from what you have done in that department it makes a good foundation of what you are going to learn them in the future. We still do a lot of work on heel, ‘sit stays’, ‘down stays’ and now steadiness.

We also play lots of games and keep it all fun. If I see a part of training he does not like or gets bored with I will just drop it sometimes. Then on a day when I see he’s pumped and running well I will throw the bit in he did not like previously back in and 9 times out of 10 he’ll come back with the right answer. It’s about knowing and timing.

I also test him with training drills that he will never probably do in the field. It just reinforces the less demanding things. For example, I will sometimes set a dummy in the corner of the field before training. Then after 20 minutes of retrieve training, I will take him 200+ yards away from the plant, mark him onto it and send him on. If he runs a straight line at 200 + yards he’ll do it at 75! 

Sorry if I have gone on a bit but this is how I do it and its working nicely for us. There are lots of methods and it all boils down to comfort and the dog at the end of the day.

I just try to keep it fun and Hegy motivated. The training is adapted and ‘under stitched’ in there somehow so it goes in, in the right way with the dog in a positive frame of mind.

Hope some of this helps and best of luck to you HarriG & Ruby for successful training and the upcoming season.


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