# PLEASE HELP--I am desperate.



## kdiamond (Aug 10, 2017)

Hello All, 

I have read and re-read these threads looking for advice and trying to save our sanity, but I truly need help with our 14 week old puppy, Ellie. 

We got Ellie at 9 and 1/2 weeks. She was re-homed to us after being with another family a week and a half. I asked extensive questions about why she came back, her temperament and behavior, and was reassured Ellie was just like any other V puppy behaviorally but that she was "too much" for the first couple--they were not able to set boundaries, she was walking all over them, the the woman had anxiety, and that basically they were not strong enough personalities to deal with Ellie and she had become dominant--essentially, they were a bad match for a Vizsla is what we were told. 

Since getting her, Ellie has been SO hard. I've read about normal puppy mouthing, biting, sharkies, everything on here, but I'm hoping to get some reassurance and help from you all. Ellie is incredibly nippy. She has not improved over the 5 weeks we've had her; rather, she seems to be getting worse. She bites us all the time--to play, when excited, to tell us she needs something, to try to get what she wants. This seems to be more than typical mouthing, as she has broken skin several times. She spent a few days at the breeder's house Ellie was not born at (this breeder is comprised of two families in two separate cities), who wanted to take her back and evaluate her. The breeder said she does not have they typical south mouth of a bird dog. The breeder also believes, based on the photos I've sent her of deep bruising and torn skin, that her behavior is more aggressive than normal. 

It seems that Ellie is not willing to submit to us or intent on challenging us. This would make sense based on her first home, but after 5 weeks of CONSTANT working with her you'd think we'd be getting somewhere. Some days she is incredibly sweet and after coming back from the breeder would respond to "no bite" after biting us once, and we thought she was improving, but the past few days she is back to non-stop hard nipping/sharkies/biting for attention. She has also taken up jumping up on me and biting to get treats--I was trying to redirect and calm her down by giving treats for sitting, etc. Additionally, she has started barking at us this past week or so to get what she wants when we attempt to put her in timeout or remove ourselves from her. 

She has begun growling at us a few times as well, generally when she is falling asleep or does not want to be moved, particularly on the couch, which she possibly is resource guarding? but is only allowed up on with permission while we are on the couch with her. She also growled at my 12 year old son while getting sleepy not on the couch. 

We have tried EVERYTHING with the biting--yelping like a puppy, yelling ouch, removing ourselves, putting her in timeout, muzzling her with our hand and saying NO BITE, shaking her head up and down quickly while muzzling her and saying NO BITE, spray bottle, putting her cheeks in her mouth, putting my hand further down her mouth, attempting to teach bite inhibition... I know that sounds like a lot, but we've been consistent with a method and then moved on. We've been doing the muzzle and no bite since going back to the breeders, which as I said above seemed to be helping at first but now is not effective at all. 

We wondered if Ellie was acting out, after being re-homed, but she just doesn't seem to be getting better. I've read all about sharkies and nipping and playing, etc., on here but she her behavior just doesn't seem to be quite "normal." It is like she is trying to be dominant, or if not that, that she is not interested in pleasing us. We always read Vs are supposed to want to please their people and therefore be easily trainable, normal puppy behavior aside. She doesn't really seem to have that instinct, though. She seems incredibly strong willed, and somewhat independent. For the first few weeks she wouldn't even look at our faces or try to connect with us, which seemed weird. She still is more interested in getting what she wants than pleasing us or being with us or cuddling us, which sounds so unlike everything great we've heard about Vizslas. She'll come over and say hi now when she's not being crazy, and wag her tail/body, but she doesn't really like to plop down with us or cuddle. When she does say hi she'll then mouth us, which is very different and much softer than the biting she does the rest of the time. I've also read that "aggression" should not truly be a factor before 6 months, but she does seem really aggressive and dominant. It doesn't seem like fear aggression, from what I've read. 

We have made tremendous progress with crate training, after WEEKS of no sleep and being consistent, but her biting is not improving. She will follow the commands "go to bed" and "sit," and are working on "come," although that is all she has learned so far, along with the crate training that we REALLY had to fight to win after the first owners. 

To answer questions that you may have, she is walked 2-3 time a day for 20-40 minutes, determined by her stamina. She is played with off leash daily, and taken to parks/fields to run around off leash. However, she only wants to attack our legs/ankles then to get us to play, I assume. She naps a ton, and gets up 1-2 times a night to take a break. This is the first litter from this sire and dame, so the compatibility of their dispositions has not been tested, but both parents are very mellow, loving, people pleasers. 

Our breeder is happy to take Ellie back and find her a home with several Vizslas where Ellie could fall into the pack dynamics (she did better with all their Vs while back with them for the few days); however, our 12 year old son has really bonded with her, as have we, and would love for her to work out. We see her potential--when she is sweet she is so sweet, and the nipping/biting, and now barking, and maybe growling?? really is the only issue. She is well exercised, and we know Vizslas are a mouthy breed. Bite inhibition just isn't working however, and stopping her biting is working either, and I don't want her truly biting and hurting someone if we keep her and let this go. I'd truly appreciate ANY advice you all have, or even just reassurance or questions to bring to the breeder/vet. Thank you so much.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

It just sounds like she is very strong willed. And the type of pup that needs a experienced home, or one willing to take classed to help with the learning curve. I wouldn't label her as aggressive. 

With her being the pushy kind, I wouldn't allow her on the couch until you get some control in other areas. Sit on the floor when you want her next to you. Put her up when she's starting to get tired.


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## pez999 (Apr 22, 2017)

I'm no expert and have only had one vizsla, who is currently 6 months old, but everything sounds like what I've seen vizsla puppies do..just more over the top. Bandi did all those and with those razor sharp teeth we've all had lot of bruises and cuts for a while. He definitely did the whole attacking legs and pants and just had to keep telling no and being firm about it. It was really just being really stern and persistent, strong serious deep voice and always saying no. Always trying to replace whatever he wasn't supposed to bite with a chew toy. I've tapped on his nose or mouth and said NO , etc. and walked away. Ellie sounds normal, just may need stronger boundaries and more stern talking to haha. We've always tried to be less stern (more positive reinforcement) with Bandi because I've read vizsla's are lot more sensitive but sometimes I've had to just do toughen it up a notch but it works.


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## Rbka (Apr 21, 2014)

Honestly, some of what you describe sounds almost like autism spectrum disorder. Can that happen in dogs? I have no idea.... Just how you describe her behaviour seems like something socially is not clicking.
Her behaviour does sound over the top to me -- our 2nd v, Sam, is similar although not as bad. He has never bruised us or broken skin, but he is relentless with mouthing. Unfortunately his big brother Nico (who is a big sweet pushover) has suffered the brunt of his sharkies. Although it was bad enough that I did cry tears of joy when he lost his first razor-sharp puppy tooth. I still have it taped to the fridge I was so happy that they were finally falling out haha!
My only other suggestion is to start taking her to the dog park to be taught by other dogs as soon as you can. I have literally had to step in when other owners try to pull their dogs of Sam because I'm like "NO, LET HIM GET BEAT UP!! HE NEEDS TO BE TAUGHT A LESSON!" He has become much better since getting dominated regularly at the park by other dogs who dislike his antics.
If you're starting to bond with her then there's hope. Progress is never linear, there are always plateaus and set-backs! I hope she calms down and becomes the loving member of your family that you were hoping for


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

First off, she is still very, young, which means you have time to correct this behavior. 

Biting is just flat out unacceptable. I have had Vizlsa's since 1988 and none have them have been biters. The usual puppy stuff, but biting? NO! Stop that behavior now. You are in charge and she needs to know it. The sooner she understands that you are in charge, the safer she will be for the rest of her life.
When she bites, she gets disciplined. No if, ands, or buts, about it. Pick her up and put her in her kennel, every time, and every one in the house has to be on board with this. If you have to use a soft muzzle, then do it.
Another method is to firmly, but GENTLY! put your hand around her muzzle and with your thumb and index finger, make her bite herself by pushing in the soft folds of the skin and fur, at the hinge of her jaw, and making her bite herself if she want to keep biting you! Do this in concert with putting her away. 
You are not going to physically punish her! She's way too young for that, and won't understand it. In actuality, physically punishing her at this point, will cause you some serious issues in about 12-15 months. You are instilling in her that you can, and will, change her environment, and freedom at will. You are in charge. She won't have any issues with you being in charge, and is probably actually looking for you to assume that role. Don't let her have her own ideas at this point in time. Make your ideas, her ideas.

She should be well into her obedience and leash training by now. She should already have the basics of walking at heel and saying. She'll only do it for a few minutes, but the discipline, and time, will come. Get her on a leash and walk her at heel. Start the basic obedience drills and stick with it. Once she understands in her mind that you are in charge, she'll modify her behavior. At 14 weeks, you're not going to get very long sessions, but multiple sessions per day can easily be incorporated. 
Everything is training. Each interaction should have a purpose, and an end goal. They may be two years into the future, but there needs to be an end goal and a plan from the beginning.

I have stated it before, but I firmly believe that if a Vizlsa is put on a training program to ultimately become a hunting dog, they are much better off, as are their owners. A well trained bird dog is a joy to be around.

There are countless books and periodicals dedicated to training bird dogs. Wolters, "Gun Dog" is a nice basic book. Many, many, years out of date, but still relevant. Boggs' book on the Vizlsa is a must. The NAVDHA "Green Book" is time tested, but don't do the force retrieve section yourself on a Vizlsa. Force retrieve needs to be taught by a pro.
Everything anyone would desire of their Vizlsa on a leash, is expected of field Vizlsas, 40 yards away, with guns going off. Set your, and her, sights high. She won't disappoint you.

Give your girl time and be firm, but fair.


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## MikoMN (Nov 29, 2016)

Our boy LOVES us and all people, but has never seemed to care about "pleasing" us. He doesn't snuggle when he wants to sleep. And we have definately gone through some hard times. 
He has guarded some toys, every bone we have ever given him, shown aggression when eating, and would much rather run and explore than stay close. 
The best thing we were able to do for him was hunt training. It changed our dog.
E-collar training (by a pro) made it so he could truly get off leash and run. Helping burn all that energy improved all other behavior issues.
Our pup is also VERY stubborn. Like I said, we never get the impression that he wants to please us. He is more than happy to do what we want as long as it is in his best interest too.
We still won't give him bones. Period. High value treats are only given if he is in his kennel, away from the kids, and we have made sure they know to slowly back off if he growls while eating. That being said, the two year old doesn't understand. It is our responsibility as parents to always be vigilant. I'm not going to lie, it is a lot of work.
It took until about 11 months old before he started turning around for the better with his behavior issues. He is now 14 months and we love him to pieces.

Most of what you described sounds familiar, and though a "tough" vizsla, still a Vizsla. That being said, I always caution owners with children to remember, our dogs are LIKE family, but our kids ARE family. And our children are much more fragile. If you feel it is too high risk....And you can't do it on your own....don't. Serious things can happen is a heartbeat when it comes to kids.


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## kdiamond (Aug 10, 2017)

Pez999, Thank you so much for your reply. We do say no and have been stern and strong... now she is starting to bark back at us (this is new) and up her biting into a lunging/biting "attack"--whether it is friendly to get us to play or not friendly, as she is trying to get something from us (like a treat). Any experience with her escalating her behavior in response to your discipline?


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## kdiamond (Aug 10, 2017)

Rbka, our breeder is actually sending us to a specialist vet to see if there is something neurologically "off." I can't wait to take her to the dog park for that exact purpose--to hopefully help have her put in her place!


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## kdiamond (Aug 10, 2017)

gunnr said:


> First off, she is still very, young, which means you have time to correct this behavior.
> 
> Biting is just flat out unacceptable. I have had Vizlsa's since 1988 and none have them have been biters. The usual puppy stuff, but biting? NO! Stop that behavior now. You are in charge and she needs to know it. The sooner she understands that you are in charge, the safer she will be for the rest of her life.
> When she bites, she gets disciplined. No if, ands, or buts, about it. Pick her up and put her in her kennel, every time, and every one in the house has to be on board with this. If you have to use a soft muzzle, then do it.
> ...


Gunnr, we do the muzzling with our hand and putting her cheeks into her mouth to discourage her biting, but it doesn't help. She is SO headstrong. In fact, she has escalated her behavior and when we muzzle her/tell her NO BITE she has started this week barking at us, lunging at us and biting, and jumping up on us and biting. She is NOT willing to let us take the lead/set her environment--she is escalating her behavior in response to our structure/discipline. Any advice on this? 

Also, although we have gotten pretty good at come, sit, lie down, go to bed, her behavior has gotten WORSE on the leash. We have not trained her to heel, but this week she started sharking us while on leash on walks--this is new. Again, the lunging, jumping, biting that escalates as we try to respond--she has torn me up a couple times. We are not walking her at peak sharkie times or to the point of exhaustion... it just seems she is pushing her boundaries (leash this time) more and more rather than letting us take charge. Ideas/thoughts? 

Finally, we aren't hunters, but my husband is a trail runner--he runs 100 miles races. Our hope was she would run, off leash, with him, eventually once she is old enough and trained enough. Do you think training her to bird even if we DIDN'T hunt would still help with her behavior? Would it interfere with trail running? Or, any other ideas for jobs around the house/yard that we can train her for to give her purpose?


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## kdiamond (Aug 10, 2017)

MikoMN, they sound similar! If you didn't read my reply above, I'm wondering what you think about this: we aren't hunters, but my husband is a trail runner--he runs 100 miles races. Our hope was she would run, off leash, with him, eventually once she is old enough and trained enough. Do you think training her to bird even if we DIDN'T hunt would still help with her behavior? Would it interfere with trail running? Or, any other ideas for jobs around the house/yard that we can train her for to give her purpose? I agree giving her a job/purpose related to what she is bred for would help! Since it seems she is not content just being a sweet, submissive, people-pleasing V.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Just wondering if there are any vizsla trainers near you. Someone with a lot of experience, to help you work through some of the problems.


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## kdiamond (Aug 10, 2017)

There are no Vizsla specific trainers in our area, unfortunately. We have looked into group obedience classes as well as individual behavioral consultation and training, but the group classes are booked out two months for the reputable training facility and their individual training prices are quite high. So, we are trying to figure out the best plan of action. Do you think getting her into any group class would be beneficial, even if just for the socialization? I just can't vouch for the quality of the others in town.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Not ANY group class, but MOST may help some. New sights, sounds, people, and puppies. At this age they are always learning, what they learn is up to us.


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## MikoMN (Nov 29, 2016)

kdiamond said:


> MikoMN, they sound similar! If you didn't read my reply above, I'm wondering what you think about this: we aren't hunters, but my husband is a trail runner--he runs 100 miles races. Our hope was she would run, off leash, with him, eventually once she is old enough and trained enough. Do you think training her to bird even if we DIDN'T hunt would still help with her behavior? Would it interfere with trail running? Or, any other ideas for jobs around the house/yard that we can train her for to give her purpose? I agree giving her a job/purpose related to what she is bred for would help! Since it seems she is not content just being a sweet, submissive, people-pleasing V.



I do think solid hunt/bird training would go a long ways. A well trained bird dog comes when you say come, sits when you say sit, and will stop doing what it's doing when you tell it to. However a big part of its reward for listening is the chance to get on birds every now and then. Keep in mind your dog is a good age for introduction to hunting, but not quite ready for full on.



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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

I think any one to one training with a trainer experienced with Vizslas will be very helpful. Good training is about training you to train your dog, not training your dog directly.

In my experience, Vizslas are not eager to please. They are fairly easy to train but left to their own devices they like to do their own thing. That sounds challenging, and it is, but that is the appeal of Vizslas - it is a much more subtle relationship than unquestioning devotion to their owners. You can train turn to do anything you want but it requires consistency and work. They can be particularly challenging in the first few months but they do get easier.


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## Momo_Mia (Feb 10, 2017)

Hi! I'm having a 9 months old male, and as everybody said - we've all been through this puppy shananigans just not that intense. 
Your girl is still a little puppy, but the character is definetly there. 
The only advice I would give you is - make a really detailed research of the dog school&trainers around you, go visit them, ask/spend time there choose the one you "click with" the one you trust, and give her in proffesional hands (in Croatia those programmes last around two-three weeks, in which time the dog is at the trainers, and he/she works with the dog, and you come to work with them, after the dog learns the basic obedience programm).
Although I know you love her madly (and she loves you), your charachter/your energy - not the actions that I am sure that you are doing correctly, is too weak for her charachter (been there, realised that). And if after all you tried and after all your hard work you did not manage to stop the unwanted behaviour, a proffesional person needs to help here stop the behaviour that will cause her problems.
I know that many people won't be up for letting "some stranger" school your dog (I understand that, there are all sorts of people claiming they are proffesionals - hence, THE RESEARCH from the beginning of my post), but it seems that you have a really strong willed dog, and you're not even in the puberty fase yet, so, keep an open mind for all options...
I am sure everything will be OK!


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## pez999 (Apr 22, 2017)

kdiamond said:


> Pez999, Thank you so much for your reply. We do say no and have been stern and strong... now she is starting to bark back at us (this is new) and up her biting into a lunging/biting "attack"--whether it is friendly to get us to play or not friendly, as she is trying to get something from us (like a treat). Any experience with her escalating her behavior in response to your discipline?


Sorry for the late reply, I just saw this!

Bandi hasn't done that (as far as I know). But it depends on the kind of bark/attack I suppose. There have been a few times he was too wound up and when he wanted to play and was trying to bite at my feet or pants as I walked, and I'd tell him no, he would bark because he didn't get the response he wanted. It was almost like throwing a little tantrum to get attention lol. This doesn't happen often at all and I don't view it as something too awful, it's kind of amusing. I will usually just ignore him if he ever does that and he'll stop because he doesn't get a reaction. If it gets too much or he starts biting (kind of like his shark attacks just more intense at an older age lol) then I would just be firm and say no while I make him sit and be still until he calms down. Kind of just trying to snap him out of it, I tend to snap my fingers a lot at him when I need him to pay attention and usually works but if he's too hyped up then I'd just make him sit or hold him still. Then again, that'd be hard if he was biting so I'm not sure. 

I think training/obedience classes could definitely help. Or even those bootcamp types where you send them off for a little while.


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