# Teaching him to hunt/quarter with me



## Chestersmum

My male V is a year old now. We've been going to a group gundog training class for about 6 months now and he's picking up some useful things there. 

I visited a different trainer last week as I felt he really needed pushing on and I needed some help!

She said to me that he is hunting well (I assume she means going over the ground?!) but he's not doing it WITH me and suggested an exercise.

Whenever we walk in a field, don't go in a straight line or round the field, walk slowly in different directions but always with my back to him. As soon as he runs past me, turn around and go into a different direction. This is all fine and we're getting the hang of it. 

The bit I am stuck on is what is the final objective?!! After about 15 mins he eventually falls into place by my side and I give a 'good boy' he then goes off again. I think this is the start of teaching him to quarter and then bring in the whistle for direction but not sure.

Anyone used this method before? Any tips?!


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## Mischa

I'm here to listen...
This is exactly the reason our dog is in training right now, instead of at a doggie day care.


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## gunnr

Chestersmum

I'm going to make some assumptions here.
Firstly, Chester must already be moving in a forward direction. What this means is that Chester is in front of you most of the time. Having the dog circle behind you while hunting is non productive. 
I believe that what she is trying to get Chester to do is to pay more attention to you and your direction, hence she's using his natural forward motion to bring him back into the game. I too use this method and play "hide and seek" with the dogs to get them to pay attention.

"Quartering". Pointers are not exactly quartering dogs. They do it well though. What will eventually happen is that Chester will split the field,work the edges, and when productive scent is encountered he'll quarter that area and work it. He'll then start to move in "blocks". These blocks can be a couple acres in size sometimes, and he'll move quick through them.

Given a little more time, experience, and exposure, Chester will be able to get the whistle signal from you and change direction in the field with either hand or whistle signals, without bringing him back to the heel.
It's like having a "Game Boy" hooked to your dog. This is where your trainer is positioning you and Chester to be in a few months.


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## Mercutio

That's really interesting - we've done a similar exercise with our trainer but not for any hunting reason, just to make the dogs pay more attention to their people.


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## Chestersmum

Thanks Gunnr - really useful info. I did think it probably wasn't very productive to hunt behind me!

I've got 3 weeks before we have another session with her so wanted to get some progress in the time. We also have some heelwork to work on also!

Shall I be looking out for when he effectively 'joins up' with me and is in front but not too far or continue with him always behind me until we move on a bit more? I want to make sure I'm not changing the goalposts for him otherwise we're both going to get confused!


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## Linescreamer

I'm having the same experience. Copper is like lightning in the woods and field when we first get out of the truck. He can run through the woods at 50 MPH and not even slow down when picking up a scent and change direction! I find that mentally I can't keep up. Some times I just don't know what he is doing. Maybe they just need to run to get tired then calm down and eventually slow the pace. ??? I find myself calling him back with the collar when he gets out of sight.


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## BamBam

Hi Gemma,

So when you are walking in a direction and Chester is behind you, if he goes in front do you then ignore him and change direction? 
So is he meant to get to a point where he is hunting beside you as you walk?


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## gunnr

ChestersMum

It appears that the trainer sees the lack of attention as Chester's weak area right now to be addressed. She is also right that Chester has not included you yet as a hunting partner,a nd this is where she is taking you.
Vizslas don't need to be "trained to hunt". They'll do that right out of the box all on their own. What they need to be trained to do is hunt with their owner/handler.
For me to be succesful I know that I have to "check my ego at the door". Gunnr and Tika don't need me to hunt. I need them. Everything is about getting them to respond to me as a partner, if you will.

Once Chester is paying attention to you, then you can start to mix it up a bit and keep him in front for a period of time until he begins to not pay attention, then do a 180 on him and do as the trainer instructed.
Focus on what she is telling you though, because she is the one that has seen what Chester is doing.


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## gunnr

BamBam said:


> Hi Gemma,
> 
> So when you are walking in a direction and Chester is behind you, if he goes in front do you then ignore him and change direction?
> So is he meant to get to a point where he is hunting beside you as you walk?


BamBam

They don't hunt beside you at the heel per se. What the trainer appears to be trying to accomplish is to get Chester to maintain his awareness of where his handler is at and to respond to their position.
In time Chester will work and keep track of the handler, moving in their general direction without constant input from the handler. It takes time.


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## kellygh

Is this exercise useful for all hunting Vs? Pumpkin will run ahead, but she is never too far. She is a "checker." While she runs ahead and is doing her thing, she is always checking to see where the human is. If its in a different direction or what she perceives as distant (never out of eye sight), she is right back to me. Not at a heel position though.


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## Chestersmum

We tried this exercise again this morning for about half an hour and I did notice an small increase in the times he would be nearer to me. As you said Gunnr, I did take the opportunity to keep moving forward if I thought he was close enough and paying attention (there weren't many of these times!). The trainer also said to try and walk into the wind as this is what he's be doing to pick up on a scent?

We have 3 weeks until we see the trainer again so I'd be interested to see how he has progressed as I'd hope to see some change within that time.

Kelly - Chester is a 'checker' also and has luckily never gone too far away from me but he's just reached a year old and I think that could slip so glad we're working on this now. I also find it really interesting to train and think in a slightly different way.


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## gunnr

kellygh said:


> Is this exercise useful for all hunting Vs? Pumpkin will run ahead, but she is never too far. She is a "checker." While she runs ahead and is doing her thing, she is always checking to see where the human is. If its in a different direction or what she perceives as distant (never out of eye sight), she is right back to me. Not at a heel position though.


Kellygh

Yes it is. In fact it's good for all Vizslas and pointing dogs of any breed, regardless of whether they hunt, or not.

For me the goal is to get the dog off the leash as soon as possible, and let them go. In essence this is when the real training begins. Watching these dogs fly through the woods is really cool.


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## kellygh

Thanks Gunnr & Chestersmum! I will try this. I'll have to check back & make sure I am doing this correctly. Appreciate this thread.


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## Linescreamer

What would be a good distance to target for upland hunts? Line of sight? 1/4 mile? How would terrain effect this? I guessing we need to get to the point as a team where there is some level of understanding. Do some folks feel more comfortable with a time frame for checking in? I know we need to let these dogs hunt too.


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## gunnr

There are no rules etched in stone for either distance, or time. Much depends on the terrain, forest growth density of the huntind area and the experience of the dog and the handler.
The only critical distance for hunting is that the bird needs to be within shotgun range to bring it down.
Once you have established a rapport with your dog, the "checking in" sort of ceases to happen. The dog can check in from 10 yards out, or 100yards out and it's the same thing. Once I let them go, I rarely intefere with them other than to change their direction, or adjust their range. I almost never bring them back to the heel, or all the way to me unless something unsafe appears to be going on, or they get too close to the boundries of a hunt area.

I know a lot of this sounds difficult, or seems as if it will take more training than it's worth, or you need to be an expert trainer, but the reality is that it actually starts to happen naturally.
The more time you spend afield with your dog, the more it will learn you also and adjust itself with less and less correction as time goes on.
The biggest hurdle to overcome is to have enough faith and confidence in the dog to truly let it go.
You have to meet the dog half way.


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## kellygh

So I tried this exercise to my understanding, and it seemed to go well? Pumpkin always came back with a change of direction (no recall command) 3/4 of the time she would come back just by turning my back but not moving forward. It is the 1st time, yikes :, that I've really been cognizant of how Pumpkin rolls. She is never behind me, frequently moves in a zig-zag pattern, and circles only when she's on a scent. If anything, this exercise is helping me be more aware. I sometimes have a tendency to just blank & enjoy no screaming kids in the background  She has been introduced to the whistle, and I'm wondering how y'all introduce change of direction whistles &/or hand signals? I use 3 short blasts for come. We are not there yet, but I was just curious. If the goal is to have the dog more intune with the handler, how will I know we have accomplished that? Hope that is not a silly question.


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## Chestersmum

I thought this might be interesting to video our progress today. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsyKXOhGkNs

Apologies you can hear my keys and whistle 'jangling' the whole way through and it's in some weird portrait format!

For the purposes of this I kept the distance he was out in front of me really short. We can build to longer distances. Where you just see me walking, he is behind me then usually runs past, we walk forward for a bit until he's too far ahead then I turn in a different direction. Not sure if this is good or bad progress but interesting none the less.

We'd been walking like for about 40 mins and he spotted a bird. Video of him 'stalking' it. Thought it was interesting how he looked behind several times (I assume to check I was there) which I think he may not have usually done had we have not completed the other exercise first. I may be wrong ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc702Dqq9g4


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## gunnr

The first video shows me that Chester likes to lead, which is good. He just assumes that you will follow. Once he realizes that it's you that sets the direction, but that he's still allowed to lead, he'll be fine.
If your end goal is to hunt Chester, you may want to eventually consider giving him more input into the direction. He has the nose. 
To be successful, I set the general over all direction, but follow the dogs as I move.

The second video shows me that he is well on his way. That's a natural hunting dog you got there. I don't see many big problems with him in the future. Most dogs his age would have broke to the first movement from that bird and chased it.
When he kept looking back, which would be a fault in a test, he was looking for input and direction from you. As the bird was moving he relocated, also a fault, but at his young age completely understandable, because he got no direction and had to trust his own instincts.
Should that excellent opportunity present itself again, in a low gentle voice, barely audible, tell Chester "easy, easy, whoa.....", and keep saying it as you move closer to him. Give him some more gentle voice "whoa,,, stay,,, good boy,,, good boy". If you can right up to him, before the bird flys, very gently stroke his topline and style up the tail, move that foreleg up into a classic pointing pose,a nd when the bird finally flies off try to gently restrain him for a few moments, and then let him go to rework the bird.
Get him to stay locked on point, moving only the direction of his muzzle as that bird moves around.


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## Chestersmum

Chester knows what he's doing - it's just the human who needs to catch up!

We haven't really done any practice around birds. We are always walking by the canal where there are lots so he is slightly desensitised to them and their movement but will always stalk/point if the opportunity arises.

Thanks for the extra advice Gunnr. I have always wondered what to do to support/direct him on those scenarios. I tend to just stand and watch .. doh!

I find it fascinating watching what he can do naturally and what he needs to learn and I like having something for us both to work on. Watch this space


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## kellygh

Enjoyed the videos Chestersmum! Thank you for posting them. I am a visual learner, and I found them interesting.

Gunnr-The times that we have had Pumpkin on quail, she will do a "classic point," & not move when we move close to her. I have stood by her (literally) pointing on top of a quail for well over 5m; however, if she is pointing on a bird, like Chester, she will glance to do a human check. She does this just out running ahead like in the video. When she is pointing on a bird, if I am close enough, she doesn't move her head, but she definitely checks with her eyes. Since I don't know what I'm doing, I have never given direction. How do you start introducing direction changes, hand signals &/or whistle, or otherwise provide direction in a pointing situation? I know diving in on a bird is a no-no, so I discourage the bird chase (lots of times just tweets) if she has been pointing them. Is that a no-no? Should I allow her to chase if she has waited for me to release her? We are still working on the release/total whoa thing. I just don't want to inadvertently encourage bad habits during play that aren't allowed in the hunt Field or hunt tests. I did not know checking was a fault until now ??? Thanks Chestrsmum & Gunnr. Y'all are helping me yet again!


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## kellygh

Last questions....Once the dog makes the initial point, they are not suppose to move again? What if it's self-correction? I have seen Pumpkin (mostly in denser cover) find the bird we have planted, but she is "off" by 10ft and then shifts to self-correct with the wind or for whatever reason she wasen't right on it to begin with. How close to the bird is close enough?


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## gunnr

kellygh said:


> Last questions....Once the dog makes the initial point, they are not suppose to move again? What if it's self-correction? I have seen Pumpkin (mostly in denser cover) find the bird we have planted, but she is "off" by 10ft and then shifts to self-correct with the wind or for whatever reason she wasen't right on it to begin with. How close to the bird is close enough?


Everything depends on your expectations.
In the "field", actually hunting birds, if the dog makes slight corrections by itself, or is commanded to, is up to the owner. Technically though, it's "creeping". However, you have to consider the dogs age and experience and amount of time it's had to handle birds.
Young dogs will point on a hot ground scent, but after some experience will learn the difference between a bird close by and a hot trail and will act differently. They'll hit that trail and follow it. Then lock up on point.
Planted birds are somewhat difficult for inexperienced gdogs to handle. There is little scent to progressively warn them of a bird and typically what you'll see is that they will stop and point and stop and point and circle somemore and stop and point some more. It's just a learning experience for them that they need to go through.
For the hunter a little creep can work in your favor, if you can control it. For trials it is generally considered a fault.


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## Crazy Kian

I am really enjoying this thread, thanks for starting it CM.

Kian has been training for field tests and last year in September we took him for his first and second test which he passed. Funny thing was he was only pointing birds about a week prior. He would always over run the bird or give chase if he scented it. he would run right up to the trainers bird cage and try to get at the bird.

Now he will point a bird and the longest he has held point, so far, was 40 seconds. He was solid, did not even turn his head to look for me. That was last season.
This season I took him to the trainers farm about a month ago and it was like he forgot everything  Well, almost. He forgot WHOA, so I will be working on this with him as he has his final test in May. Hopefully he will pass it like he did his first two.
If you get a chance to please enter your dog in Hunting Field Test/Trials.. it's so much fun watching your dog do what it was meant to do.

In my signature below is a picture of Kian on his final bird of the day last season on his last test. He held that point for a good 30 seconds, the bird was a good 15' away from where he was standing. I literally could not find the stupid thing and Kian was getting impatient.
Good luck and keep up the training, it's lots of fun.


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## kellygh

Crazy Kian,
Are the hunt tests the same in Canada as in the US? I'm new to all of this stuff. When I was growing up, it seemed like everything was field trials. I am defintely planning on entering Pumpkin in hunt tests. After reading the requirements/rules, she can easily perform what is required of the Junior Hunt title. Beyond that, I need help (serious help ). I am not confident in my skills to "do right" in the test environment. I guess I just need to go watch some tests & find a good trainer. I found one trainer, but for a variety of reasons, I think I need to move on. Did you handle Crazy Kian yourself? Have you trained a hunting dog before? Is he 2? Sorry for all the questions.

Gunnr,
Thanks for more helpful feedback. I think I am just going to have find a good trainer that does not require leaving your dog. I want to be a part of the training, as well as, find someone who subscribes to methods I am comfortable with. I appreciate the assistance along the way.


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## Crazy Kian

kellygh said:


> Crazy Kian,
> Are the hunt tests the same in Canada as in the US? I'm new to all of this stuff. When I was growing up, it seemed like everything was field trials. I am defintely planning on entering Pumpkin in hunt tests. After reading the requirements/rules, she can easily perform what is required of the Junior Hunt title. Beyond that, I need help (serious help ). I am not confident in my skills to "do right" in the test environment. I guess I just need to go watch some tests & find a good trainer. I found one trainer, but for a variety of reasons, I think I need to move on. Did you handle Crazy Kian yourself? Have you trained a hunting dog before? Is he 2? Sorry for all the questions.
> 
> Gunnr,
> Thanks for more helpful feedback. I think I am just going to have find a good trainer that does not require leaving your dog. I want to be a part of the training, as well as, find someone who subscribes to methods I am comfortable with. I appreciate the assistance along the way.


No problem.

Yes, he is 2 years old now.
Kian is our first dog and he comes from a breeder that breeds dogs mostly for hunting and he fields trials his dogs on horse back, so his dogs range pretty far, from what I was told.
I found a trainer that got Kian and I ready for the Junior hunt testing. 
Up here the dog completes 3 of those to earn a title. 
Here is an exerpt of the rules_....."the dog is judged mainly in it's natural ability and trainability. Each test simulates realistic but simple hunting conditions"_

We start in a field and the judge tells you to release the dog. he is judging the dog on how it covers ground. Is he just out for a run? is he covering ground, left, right, figure 8's, or is he just running a straight shot.
Then we enter the bird field. With your entrance fee you are given 2 planted birds (dizzied birds placed in cover) Now you let the dog do his thing. You can talk to your dog, give him commands but essentially just let him hunt.
Once he points a bird, he has to hold point for 10 seconds (I believe), the judge will direct the handler to find the bird and flush it. Once you find the bird, spook the bird to take flight and then your dog can give chase. Once the dog gives chase you fire your starter's pistol. This simulates a gun shot.

This is what the scoring sheet covers:
Desire to hunt
Style of running
Pace
Range
Pattern
Control
Pointing
Reaction to Shot

If you can find yourself a good trainer I really recommend it, it is a lot of fun to watch your dog work. I could go on and on about it, but I will not. You will have to experience it yourself.
I hope I answered all your questions, by all means you can PM me if you'd like.


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## Linescreamer

Good posts and vis.


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## kellygh

Crazy Kian,
Thanks so much for the post! You answered my questions, but I am sure I will end up sending a pm or 2 with more. I appreciate your time & suggestions. It sounds so fun, and I can't wait to get going! Pumpkin herself is already teaching me so much on her own. My husband said the other night "**** I love that dog!" Couldn't have said it better about Pumpkin or the breed in general


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## Mischa

Gunnr said:


> Should that excellent opportunity present itself again, in a low gentle voice, barely audible, tell Chester "easy, easy, whoa.....", and keep saying it as you move closer to him. Give him some more gentle voice "whoa,,, stay,,, good boy,,, good boy". If you can right up to him, before the bird flys, very gently stroke his topline and style up the tail, move that foreleg up into a classic pointing pose,a nd when the bird finally flies off try to gently restrain him for a few moments, and then let him go to rework the bird.
> Get him to stay locked on point, moving only the direction of his muzzle as that bird moves around.


That answers a big question for me right there.
Mischa has given me that chance so many times and I recognized it as an opportunity for me to give direction, but in all honesty had no idea what to do, so I just let her continue with what she is doing. 
If she's on leash I'll walk slowly with her and say "slowly", but never bother trying to move in front of her towards her point while she's off leash. 


I need more training than her!

Gunnr, you really are our most valuable member.


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## Crazy Kian

Dennis, 
Don't walk directly in front of her while she is on point.

Look from behind her, follow her snout. If you don't see a bird then walk away from her as not to "crowd" her, then walk toward where you think the bird is. I have been told never to walk in front of your dog because now you are blocking the scent and the dog will lose it.

Hope that makes sense.
I can show you what I mean if we meet up later.


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## Mischa

Crazy said:


> Dennis,
> Don't walk directly in front of her while she is on point.
> 
> Look from behind her, follow her snout. If you don't see a bird then walk away from her as not to "crowd" her, then walk toward where you think the bird is. I have been told never to walk in front of your dog because now you are blocking the scent and the dog will lose it.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.
> I can show you what I mean if we meet up later.


Definitely show me what you mean.

Liz did a wide loop around and ended up where the bird was. Of course, she planted it, so she knew where it was. I guess in a test, or a real hunt walking in front would cause problems.

Should I approach her from the side?


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## gunnr

If at possible, walk up on the dog from it's right rear flank at an angle. This does two things while hunting;

First the dog will see/sense you out of the corner of it's eye, and will locate you.
Second, if you are right handed, the shotgun comes up from the carry position from your right side, keeping your dog out of the line of fire while the shotgun is coming up. It also applies "pressure" to the bird which hopefully causes the bird to flush straight and away, with maybe a little quartering angle for lead.


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## Linescreamer

There are lots of vids on the net like this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z73wq6E8u0


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## Chestersmum

I liked that video ... did that guy have an infinite number of pigeons in that bag?!


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## kellygh

Yes, that was a good video. Similar to what we were doing with Pumpkin this past weekend. It was her first time on pigeons. While there wasen't an infinite supply in the bag , it's nice to have or know someone with homing pigeons. That homing instinct is obviously strong, because I don't know why a bird would want to keep returning to a "home" where he gets used with hunting dogs ;D! Thanks for the link.


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