# Free Feed Vs. Measured



## threefsh

We have a small dilemma - Riley is used to free feeding, while Cooper is used to getting a measured amount of food morning and night. Riley will only eat as much as she needs and Cooper would probably eat the entire bag of food if I let him. His previous owners were feeding him 1.5 cups in the morning and 1.5 cups at night. Does this sound right? He is 50lbs and 6 months old. 

Riley keeps refusing to eat her food when we put her meals down. We feed them in separate rooms to prevent aggression issues. 

What should I do?


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## mswhipple

Hmmm, that IS a dilemma! I've never allowed free feeding, so my dogs have always known they should eat it up when its chow time! The amount you're giving Cooper does sound about right. He is still growing. Willie only gets one cup of food, morning and evening, with a large dog biscuit at lunch. Much also depends on the food itself (some are higher calorie, some lower) and the activity level of your dog plays a role, too.

Maybe you need to find a food that Riley enjoys more, then give her fifteen to twenty minutes to clean it up, then pick up what's left, and no more food until next meal time. She will catch on quickly, I think. My vet explained to me that sometimes you will have a dog that is just going to demand more variety, and you might have to switch food brands from time to time. There is nothing wrong with that. There are so many high quality dog foods available now, it's never an issue here -- I but I do change Willie's food about every 6 to 8 months. 

I understand about keeping them separate at chow time, and I agree that it's a good idea, and simple enough to do. Riley just has to learn to eat when it's offered. Good luck!! ;D ;D


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## CrazyCash

My question is who do you ultimately want to change - do you want Riley to get used to getting fed at certain times or do you want Cooper to get used to free feeding?

I free feed my dogs also and when I got Cash from my vet he told me that Cash was a "vacuum" and would eat food constantly. I wanted Cash to get used to free feeding, so I just tried it for a few days. I put the food out as usual and just kept an eye on him to see how much he was eating. The first couple of days he ate more than he should have, but then he figured out the system (and I think that it helped having other dogs to watch), now he's fine and totally regulates himself. 

I will add that years ago I had a golden retriever that would eat constantly and he was not a dog that could self feed because he would never regulate himself. I think that if you want to try the self feeding route, you just need to give it a try for a little bit, see if Cooper figures it out and if he doesn't then you'll have to get Riley to change. 

Oh and I did separate Cash's bowl at first (he was eating puppy puppy food and I made the other dogs leave it alone). Now he's on the same food and he eats side by side with my Cooper and they even interchange bowls.

Good luck and congrats on the new guy, you're going to have tons of fun together!!!


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## WillowyndRanch

Being the science guy, I always measure feed and individually. I want to know how much each dog is getting and that they are eating their own rations. That way I can regulate intake to match whether I am trimming down or putting on.

60lbs for a six month old is BIG for a V. 

We feed in kennels or crates and I usually have one dog that just picks away at their feed. Adults we only feed once a day in the evening to help build their glucose storage capacity and to ensure they've had at least 8 hours digestion time prior to working. There are many studies that discuss not feeding working dogs prior to work for numerous reasons, core increased temperatures, etc. I'd list a few, but of course they're research done by feed companies so they of course will be flawed in some people's minds and that's not the topic of this discussion.
Dogs who don't eat in the 20 or so minutes of feeding time I feed as I do with the others and then put the bowl in the crate with them at night/bedtime and it's always clean by morning. I'd prefer they eat earlier, but that's how at least one always eats. At least I know they ate their ration and no one else. I don't know if Riley sleeps in her crate or not, but that would be a solution.

Ken


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## hotmischief

I have been following a study that the vet school at Liverpool University has been doing into bloat/gastric torsion, in particular with Danes. Beaware that is condition that Vizslas suffer from too. :'(

They have found a link to gastric torsion and free feeding as basically there is a bigger risk of the dog being exercised before it has digested.

I am of the school where if they haven't eaten up within 15 minutes the bowl is removed. I like Ken's suggestion of putting the bowl in the crate at night if they don't clear their bowls at the regular time. Great suggestion ken.


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## threefsh

Ken - do you only feed puppies once a day? Riley prefers to eat once a day in the evening (even when she free feeds) so maybe we will try that for both of them.


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## WillowyndRanch

No, we feed puppies 3x a day up to around 5 months then 2x a day to a year, then go to the 1x daily. The workouts for pups aren't as intensive as for the adults and that seems to work out for us. If we're going to run a pup in something and think he'll run within 4 hours we'll hold the morning feeding until after he runs and feed about an hour after his run.

Ken


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## R E McCraith

we are a 1 pup household - I measure till 1yr old then try free feeding for 2 weeks - if the pup adjusts to a full bowl I stay that way - PIKE normally eats around 6-7 at night it's worked for 3 of my 4 Vs do I recommend - only if it works - it does make life easy if it does - on a 2-3 day hunting trip it is always measured and time control ed


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## datacan

Same here, full bow. Sam never eats during the day.
???
But then, every dog I had preferred to eat in the late afternoon. Generally, only once a day. This applies to kibble only. 
Raw or cooked food and they eat until they burst. 
One more reason to feed only high quality kibble.


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## jld640

The 1.5 cups morning and evening sounds low for a 6 month old, depending on the food.


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## jjohnson

I might try just giving Riley her food, and if she doesn't eat in 5 to 10 minutes, pick it up and let her go hungry. Eventually, she'll learn to eat in her time frame becaus eshe will be hungry! Our trainer told us it was a huge no-no to let a dog decide when it wants to eat. 

Gus used to ignore his food and just eat it when he felt like it, but we were told to leave it down for 5 minutes and then pick it up if he doesn't eat it. You probably don't need to do this if Riley doesn't have temperment issues like our dog, but I think if you regimented her meals more she would learn to adjust and not starve herself  We also figured oput we were feeding Gus too much, which is why he ignored his food a lot- I think he just wasn't hungry.


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## redbirddog

You are Alpha. You control when the dog gets food. You own the food and the time the dog gets the food. When Lily comes over (not quite 2 years old) she feeds the dogs and makes them wait.

Very cool watching the dogs sit until she says ok. 
Then they dive in. 

We always feed them in separate rooms and never more than they will finish at one time otherwise Chloe will come finish off Bailey's food.

RBD


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## flynnandlunasmom

We feed in separate rooms too, and we we measure out portions and make them sit while we put the bowl down and they have to be told "ok" before they can eat.

Sometimes, Luna won't finish hers and she'll leave the room. Sometimes I forget to pick up her bowl and sure enough, Flynn wanders in there and thinks "Cool, second breakfast." We try not to let that happen but he's fast. 

RBD, I like the idea of having your niece feed them.


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## threefsh

We've settled on a timed, but not measured, food schedule. The bowls go down full of food in the morning (in separate rooms) for 10-15 minutes then they get put up. Riley seems to be learning that the food goes away if she doesn't eat, but I have been enticing her by adding tidbits to her bowl (last night she got some meatloaf).  Cooper used to eat as much as he could stuff in his stomach, but now that he gets a full bowl he only eats until he is full (usually around 1.5 cups) and then walks away. I'm happy to say that he no longer looks like a fat labrador (no offense to anyone who owns a lab...) but he actually has a defined waistline and some nice muscle forming in his legs. It's amazing what a week's worth of off-leash hikes will do! 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8K6Ls-loXA&feature=g-u-u


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## jjohnson

Awww they are both REALLY cute!

That makes me want another one, and I am a month out from having a brand new human baby! I must be insane!


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## datacan

@ threefsh 
Just watched the vid... on your whistle command our Sam came as well ... I blow the whistle the same way ;D We are still at the office (9pm, taking a break), his place is by the door a little ways aways.

You guys are going to have so much fun with them


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## Ozkar

Ozkar eats slowly, but eats his whole bowl. Astro eats a little faster, but still slowly and eats everything in his bowl too. Zsa Zsa breaths it in... in one breath....... and then hawks around for anything that might be dropped by the other two.   

I measure everything my dogs get. I watch their body shape daily and adjust up or down in amount accordingly. 

As a general rule, Astro gets 3.5 cups per day, Ozkar gets 3 cups per day and Zsa Zsa gets 2.5 cups per day, of dry food. Plus a bone or a small treat after they finish their bowl. This keeps them looking lean and fit.


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## AKGInspiration

I have always been one to measure food and offer it at distinct feeding times. This has always helped with house training and travel arrangements, for young dogs especially.
I say distinct rather than set feeding times as sometimes it changes depending on my random work schedules. Sometimes they don't get to eat their breakfast till late morning, while other times it is early right as we get up. Just how it goes and they don't bug me for it. 
I am with RBD on how important meals are to pack order. I want them to know food is a huuuuge resource provided by ME not the sky. So it happens on my terms and time. This also makes things easiest when others care for them as they can stick to a routine and not have to worry about the dog having to eliminate beyond a certain time frame. I also do not allow another dog to approach the other dog's bowl until they walk away from it on their own. This eliminates the chance of any resource guarding. But I also can feed them side by side with food dispensing toys and they do just fine. But they are always supervised while eating anything and kept calm so things don't have a chance to really escalate. 
I know there are some dogs who self regulate but IME that is not the majority and I hate to especially see a fat Vizsla when this breed thrives on being active. Sounds like you are figuring out your system, I have thought about going to feeding 1 meal in the evening as well, and may yet as hunting season comes in.


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## adrino

I had to pull this thread back up because we are having trouble with Elza. She's not eating... Well she does but a lot less then before. She's already lost that little weight she managed to put on the end of last year. 
I have tried a few things but I cannot decide wether she's bored with her food or just not that hungry. 

So the story, ever since she's finished with her second heat in January she's become a fussy eater. Before that she would eat anything and everything I put in her bowl in one go. Slowly she started to walk away from her food and just leave it. I left it there for 15 minutes if not clear she wouldn't get the rest till the next feeding time. But even then she wouldn't finish it off so that meant that day by day she started to miss out on her regular amount. It's been 2 months and nothing changed or if it did she's eating less than ever. Now she doesn't touch it at all if its just dry food. I started to mix it up with water and some wet food 15 minutes prior to feeding time to let the dry swell up. That helped for a while but after about 2 weeks she's not finished half of her daily amount at one go. So I added a little tuna each time to her meals which helped a bit but quite often she still doesn't eat half a daily amount or not when I present it. It doesn't help at all if I just take it away and try to give it to her later. Most of the time she picks at it, digging out the tuna and a couple of the wetted kibble then she just walks away. 
At this present moment she's eating half or sometimes 2/3 of her daily amount. 
I have left with no chance but to leave her food out because I just want her to eat! This means free feeding.... Which I'm not happy about but if she eats like that at least she has some food in her. Obviously I'm still very careful feeding her prior to exercise and usually take the food away and only put it back down after the walk hoping eventually she will eat some. 
She has no problem eating the same food that I have prepared at the morning later in the day so I'm not sure why she doesn't eat it fresh. Also if she finds any food outside in the park or wherever we take her she gobbles it down in a sec! Even if its plain bread! 
Don't get it why she doesn't eat her food at the morning then when I take her out and find something she's finished it before I blinked once! 
Today in desperation I used little bits from our roast chicken warmed it up in water with some wet food, put it on her dry, waited 10 minutes then gave it to her. Yes you don't have to guess she's gobbled it down! 

Could this mean she's bored with her present kibble? Should I try a different taste? It's though, I already have another 15 kg bag of the same taste...

By the way, she's not sick, her poopoo is absolutely normal and she behaves totally fine. 

Any suggestion is welcome! I'm desperate to get that little weight back on her.


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## mlwindc

Not V's... But my coworker had two welsh terriers and one of them was a super finicky eater. They tried years of different methods and finally settled on one -- fresh grated Parmesan! Her hub grates some over the bowl every time and they lap it up.


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## MilesMom

Ours finicky too. We change flavored of taste of the wild puppy food which helps. He is free fed. We don't push him too hard to eat if he doesn't look too skinny, which he is looking fine this week. If very thin, we used soft boiled eggs, sweet potatoes, fish, chicken, ground beef, raw food supplement, and peanut butter to entice him. Never the same two times in a row, he gets bored easily of food. You could try the satin balls recipe too.


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## Vida

Raw makes them eat til they burst?? ;D
Oh Data! Does raw feeding upset you soo much. :'(
I wish I could video mine eating. 
At about 6.30am-
I put the meat down in one bowl,I let the big girl eat first, the v's sit and wait. She eats it straight away but at a reasonably calm rate. Then I put two more bowls down and let the v's eat, they had beef and tripe mince this morning, yummy! 
They have a big bowl full- lots! Never weigh it,just bung a few 'blocks' in each bowl at night to defrost.
I only feed once a day. But several times a week they get a nice meaty bone later in the day.
They don't fight for food, gorge, scrounge,steal,eat poop or trash,no runny poo or bad skin. 
Raw works for us.


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## adrino

Thanks for the replies so far. 
*mlwindc* unfortunately Elza can't have cheese (doesn't agree with her stomach). As I said even if I put tuna on and she didn't eat for at least 12 hours she still picks at her food. She licks off the tuna and literally spits the kibbles out around her bowl!!! 
Thanks *MilesMom*, I know about the satinballs but I'm looking for a long term solution. Her ribs are not showing yet but getting closer... :-\ I think I will have to order a different taste then. 
*Vida* unfortunately we can't feed her raw. Up until her heat she had no problem eating dry without anything added to it. 

I have to highlight it again if she finds food herself outside on walks she has no problem eating that without hesitation. 

Any more ideas please? :-[


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## hotmischief

I think that you have answered your own question Adrino - Elza has a very descerning palate. Would you eat those dehydrated nuggets of ...who knows what bound to gether with ASH?

I do think you are doing the right thing though, mixing in tuna, egg. If you don't want to change her kibble I would add even more thing like raw mince, do extra vegetables when you cook and add those. My Vizsla loves raw vegetables, but the dane likes them cooked, but they both love them in their food. Try cooking sweet potato and adding that - very fattening and most dogs love it. Pilchards in tomato sauce is a good cheap addition and like tuna is high in omega 3.

Maybe, when you have finished the large bag you have got it might be worth trying a small bag of kibble such as TOW or Acana, both are grain free and have a much high meat content, which might be more tasty. Or change her over to wet food completely if she always eats that from her kibble. Not sure how expensive that is.

I feed raw and never have any problems with them eating, but I know it doesn't suit everybody, especially as it needs a place to store it, and is expensive compared to some of the cheaper brands of kibble. Maybe wet would be happy half way mark, but she does sound like a fussy madam and an owners worst nightmare.


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## mlwindc

No more ideas but we do mix his food up. He has had blue buffalo puppy (lamb and oats) as well as totw puppy salmon and adult formula too. Our guy actually doesn't like it when things change -- prefers consistency. I blend his food so he has a mix and stick with it. Good luck! Ours loves yogurt (plain Greek) in his food. It's a delightful Sunday treat!


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## datacan

2-3 pieces of reeze dried liver treats mixed with kibble. 
Never worry the dog will go hungry. It wants to survive, it will eat.. 
Kibble is balanced, gives a high dose of energy. 

If the dog doesn't want to eat, don't force it. Natural fasting has numerous benefits. I bet it won't go for more than 24 hours if it is healthy. 




PS 
nitrate/nitrites as preservatives are everywhere, your store bought RAW contains preservatives, guaranteed, it's only the law!
Cook the food, don't buy into the hype that somehow in the modern world there is such a thing as natural Raw without preservatives.. They all cause one or another form of cancer. If you care for your dog's health, cook the food!

http://www.faia.org.uk/preservatives/

http://www.fsai.ie/faq/use_and_removal_of_nitrite.html#satisfy_competent_authorities


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## hotmischief

Actually datacan there are NO Preservatives in the raw I feed - it clearly states on the packaging that it contains no preservatives, and I have been around their plant and watched it being produced - so sorry to disagree.

Also in the UK - you can buy a lot of food that does not contain preservatives as many people are allergic to some preservatives. Organic food cannot contain preservatives so I think you have been wrongly informed.

Please read the last paragraph in the link below

http://www.naturalinstinct.com/categories/All-Dog-Food/


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## datacan

HM when reading labels we need to be careful 

"*We also never resort to *bulking out our recipes with undesirable fillers such as dairy produce, animal by-products, animal derivatives or *artificial colours, flavours or preservatives."*

Which leaves the door wide open to natural preservatives. Nitrates/nitrites are considered natural preservatives. It would be impossible to package preservatives free processed meats, by law. 

That's not to say one cannot grind their own meat, that would be preservative free. Need to know a good butcher willing to grind a whole chicken...


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## stryker

When one of my v is not into eating I dissolve a teaspoon of chicken fat (saved in the fridge when baking chicken) in there food, it works everytime. 

I had a GSP who free fed on kibble and bits. He would eat every thing except one type of kibble. by the end of the week I would be left with a full bowl of unwanted kibble. This from a dog who would eat everything from green peppers to paper.


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## hotmischief

Datacan when I watched them processing the food the only thing I saw being added to the meat was fruit and vegetables.

When I asked about preservatives they told me that because it is frozen immediately it is ground up and it is recommended that it is used within 4 days of defrosting (begin kept in a refrigerator) there was no requirement for preservatives.


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## datacan

Again, they don't have to tell you anything not required by law. 

The ingredients aside, water content is very high. Raw meat is famous among bodybuilders for containing Creatine. Creatine, a naturally occurring hormone has an added side effect of accumulating water in muscle cells. That is what gives the perceived bulky look.... 
I did a little body building when I was young...

What you guys are feeding is a "safe" food 14% -17% protein, moderate amount fat and high water content.. wouldn't last as long in the field compared to a dog properly fed high quality kibble.

Numerous studies prove protein levels below 30% makes dogs loose muscle mass. Ideally, protein content should be between 33% - 44%. Fat levels for high energy dogs should be around 20%. 
The people formulating kibble are not stupid. Sometimes due to business practices, once the original company is sold, suppliers are changed, shortcuts are implemented as well. 
This a sad, but true business fact.

Btw, one has to know how to feed kibble properly to get maximum potency out of the food.. wet the kibble. Have water available at all times, do not overfeed.


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## Vida

Data- did you have a bad experience with a lamb chop as a child? 
Yawn....
Freezing is an entirely natural process which does not require any preservatives or additives.
We are very lucky in the Uk to have local butchers who offer locally traced, high end human food grade meat.
Things may be a little different where you live?
Last longer in the field? 
You're having a laugh! ;D


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## datacan

Think as you wish, but we are under the similar laws over here in Canada, when it comes to food preparation. 

If you would like to talk about butcher fresh meat, then we are switching topics. 

I only tell you the realities of running a successful business model does not necessarily concentrate around quality only. HM 's store bought Raw proves this. 
Those guys are simply running a business, nothing more nothing less. 
There are laws to processing and packaging food. If they don't put preservatives, even natural ones, they open the floodgates to lawsuits.. UK is no different.


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## hotmischief

Vida have you ever heard of anybody bring a lawsuit over dog food in the UK - what a laugh! Maybe in Canada or the US - but the British aren't big on suing for anything - we are far too lazy, in case you weren't aware of that fact.

God help us from becoming like the US and suing for the slightest incident - No offence meant.


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## Vida

Heather, I think you and I are waay too lazy to spend anymore time on this 
LOL!


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## hotmischief

You got it in one Vida .. so lazy I think I'm off to bed!! ???


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## adrino

Ok, thanks for all the replies. Even the debate on preservatives. 

As I said raw is not an option for us, it's just the way it is. For now Elza eats JamesWellBeloved duck and rice. She used to eat the fish and rice but that gave her terribe gas and also lost weight on it. I posted about it last summer. That little tuna she gets gives her gas too so I'm a bit unsure on what taste to go for. 
*Datacan* we do wet her food every time now in the last 2-3 months and water is always right next to her food. 
She's got a sensitive stomach so no dairy products at all. Found out the bad way... Used to give yogurt/cottage cheese on her dry but that gave her loose poopoo too. Also haven't tried beef for a long time. Last year when we gave her bully sticks she had a rash coming out on her and we stopped giving beef to her ever since. She might not be allergic to that but I don't really want to try it. She was quite sick for weeks after that. 

So although there are options I have to be careful what to give to her. I will look into those other grain free brands you guys mentioned but I remember last time I checked it the price was quite high. JWB is not cheap either specially since she gets the wet mixed with her dry, plus the tuna.... Maybe if I add everything together it ends up the same price as Acana or TOTW. 

It's tough since she had no problem with food for so long. Her stomach settled well on JWB and after putting on a little weight I thought its all settled. 
It would have been too simple isn't it? :-[


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## datacan

*Ardino*, 
Have you tried something like a digestive enzyme supplement?
I currently use this http://www.inclover.com/optagest_dogs.html

This supplement is nothing special, aside from what the pet food retailer carried at the time, but it seems it allowed us to switch instantly from Blue to Orijen. We have struggled with Orijen in the past. 

Since Rudy posted so prominently about enzyme supplementation, I looked a little more in depth, and I must conclude these supplements are useful. 

This is just a random link google came up with: 
http://nusentia.com/blog/2012/06/formula-focus-enzyme-miracle/

googled "*role of supplementing digestive enzymes in dogs"*
Lots of pertinent info from weight loss to allergies to poop eating.


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