# In this Corner - Two Intact males working it out



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2012/08/in-this-corner-intact-male-vizslas.html

A 16 month old intact Hungarian Pointer male has been "testing" Bailey on some of our recent off leash walks. After maybe a month of "posturing" the test took place a couple weekends ago. It was interesting to watch the story unfold over several months and maybe a dozen walks. The "test" was going to happen.

RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Good story RBD.
Young males always seem to need to test themselves.
My female June has put many a young lad in their place. They can come up and sniff her to get acquainted but repeated sniffing will lead to a quick snap. She will then run with them but put them in their place again if they get to friendly.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Without balls it wouldn't work. 

Isn't nature wonderfull?

Thank you, RBD


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Just a quick add to the story. I was walking with three women when it happened. After the 5 second encounter, Tobi came to me first. I didn't say anything. He just stood there sideways in front of me. I patted his side and then he walked away. 15 seconds later Bailey came and assumed the same exact position. I patted him on the side, saying nothing and then walked away. Found that also interesting. Tobi didn't go to his owner. 
The "pack" in action.

RBD


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## Emily1970 (Apr 21, 2011)

There is an intact Vizsla that comes to our dog park, but he's extremely aggressive and I've even seen him bite someone thru the skin at the park. His owners have several dogs they show I guess. He was there this week and I noticed he had a very large, deep wound finishing healing on his head right above his eye. I guess one of their other intact dogs, a german short hair, attacked him. I would say his show days are over as you can tell the wound is going to scar badly. This V comes up whenever it's there, puffs his chest out at Riley and Chuck and tries to chest butt them and scuffs the ground in front of them. Interesting this week because Chuck put himself between Riley and the other V, puffed his chest out, picked up a front paw and smacked him in the head and rammed him back. It ended there. This hasn't been the only time this has happened either. I think Chuck senses that Riley isn't strong enough to hold his own and protects his little brother.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Emily1970 said:


> This V comes up whenever it's there, puffs his chest out at Riley and Chuck and tries to chest butt them and scuffs the ground in front of them. Interesting this week because Chuck put himself between Riley and the other V, puffed his chest out, picked up a front paw and smacked him in the head and rammed him back. It ended there. This hasn't been the only time this has happened either. I think Chuck senses that Riley isn't strong enough to hold his own and protects his little brother.


I understand there have been other circumstances of a fight - the description of Chuck and the other male I would not term aggression. I would call it posturing. Chuck is the Alpha between Riley and himself I assume, so it sounds like he is just reacting as his place in the pack dictates. 

As for a scar on the face ruining a show dog's carreer - I hope not. These are supposed working dogs and the standard specifically says "_It is strongly emphasized that field conditioned coats, as well as brawny or sinewy muscular condition and *honorable scars indicating a working and hunting dog are never to be penalized in this dog.*" _ 

Of course without witness - how would one know if a scar were "honorable" or not, but the premise is that working dogs get cuts, punctures, lacerations and resultant scars, badges of honor.
Ken


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Ken - yes there are dual champions out there in the V world - not as many as I would like to see - sad to say that some judges do not appreciate the red badge of courage - With PIKE and his markings do to so much time in the field - I think he his the most hansome mutt out there - the good thing when going into a bird field there is no doubt he hunts !


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Interesting RBD. I just finished with a new introduction of my brother's new 14 month old duck tolling retriever (He had no idea it was a hunting dog) and Astro and Zsa Zsa. I am staying at my father's place at the moment and while I was down the shops, my brother turned up with his dog. So when we arrived back and walked into the back yard, we were surprised by a bark from Benji the duck tolling retriever. 

Benji first tried to mount Zsa Zsa. That resulted in a very sharp correction from her. She doesn't accept that from any dog and reacts instantly. 

Then, Benji tried it on Astro and was met with the exact same response. At this point, I left them in the back yard together to work it out. When I went inside, my brother asked what the fuss was about and I told him that Benji had tried it on and that my dogs had corrected him. My brother proudly extolled the virtues of Benji as a dominant dog who always is in charge. I smiled inwardly at this, as I knew neither Zsa Zsa nor Astro would allow this. My brother also clearly told me to leave them to work it out. 

A few minutes later after him hearing a couple more corrections he went out to see what was going on. I went with him. Benji tried it on Astro again and naturally, Astro corrected him. 

You can guess what happened next. My brother grabs hold of Astro's nose and man handled him from Benji and scolded him. I then grabbed my brother's hand and explained that if he did that again, I would break his hand and that I thought he wanted them to work it out.......   

I promised him that Astro would not hurt his dominant duck tolling retriever and would merely correct him. He went back inside and asked his daughter to get her things ready as they were going home........   

I love dominant duck tolling retrievers!!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Its bad that your brother won't allow his dog to learn how to interact with other dogs.
We spent yesterday building duck blinds at the lease.
One of the other members brought his Lab Bella. Junes first response was to puff up. She tries to look tough if she sees a new dog twice her size coming near her. Once she realizes they mean her no harm she relaxes. He was going to put Bella up but I asked him not to. Instead I took all the dogs for a run around the 10 acre pond. They ran, took dips in the pond and were all friends for the rest of the day.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

TR, he was fine while he thought his dog was dominating mine. However, as soon as the normal behaviour appeared.... as in his dog being corrected for poor behaviour by mine........ he changed his tune  I was never concerned as i knew his dog was nothing but a puppy trying to work out the social graces and that mine would not hurt him, but rather ''educate" him.


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## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Ozkar - thats a bummer. what did he think the name nova scotia duck tolling retriever was all about?! .


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## AKGInspiration (Aug 23, 2012)

I second the opinion that judges should not mark down on a dog for scars as they are hunting dogs, but I have no doubt that sadly some do. I love every one of Luna's scars, she does not have too many as she is so light on her feet and small but I find it a mark of her love for the hunt (of anything). Sometimes they even grow in white haired.

So I have a question... all this talk about letting dogs work it out. What would one do if you feel the dog corrected too hard? And did not back off when the other dog showed signs of giving in? I know this is probably a touchy subject, but maybe people can learn a couple things. Being able to explain dog greetings to clients is a complex thing sometimes depending on their dogs... pack order and dominance does still exist no matter how much people are trying to write it off as old school (don't get me started). We have a pack of 7 dogs here that run the property together. 3 breeds between them and intact and altered of both sexes... and they all get along for the most part, and I attribute that largely to the control we have on our dogs as pack leaders. They get to work it out to a degree, but in the end we determine the level.

So I am just curious, has anyone dealt with a dog that goes to correct but corrects too hard? How do you react and treat this as the pack leader?


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Anna,
Great question. I'm at work so can't do much.

In the book "A Dog's Purpose" there is a chapter that was fantastic on explaining dynamics of a pack that is "thrown together" and the hierarchy achieved. Told from the dog's viewpoint.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/08/dogs-purpose.html

A book well worth the effort. Really enjoyable read or you can do audible book.

RBD


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## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

AKGInspiration said:


> So I am just curious, has anyone dealt with a dog that goes to correct but corrects too hard? How do you react and treat this as the pack leader?


I'm often worried that Jasper corrects too harshly. He obviously never hurts the dog, but he does turn and sort of chase it down until the other dog gives some sign of submission. He sounds horrible when he does it, and it occasionally lasts a few seconds longer than I would like, even though I know that no damage is being done. At that point I just step in and lead him away from the situation, but if any others had other methods, I'd appreciate the input. I do make every attempt to let them work it out on their own, because dogs need to understand each other, but on occasion there has been another owner that thinks it's an actual fight, and not just a correction. 

This always happens at the park with dogs that try to mount him. Funnily enough (har har), it's the owners that don't pay any attention to the fact that their dog is mounting every other dog in the vicinity that think my dog is ruthlessly attacking theirs. We only go in when we know all the dogs now, because I've stopped wanting to deal with people that don't understand dog body language or how dogs actually interact.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

You answered your own question - we have no control over other dogs or their owners - avoidance is the only thing that truly works!


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## AKGInspiration (Aug 23, 2012)

redbirddog said:


> Anna,
> Great question. I'm at work so can't do much.
> 
> In the book "A Dog's Purpose" there is a chapter that was fantastic on explaining dynamics of a pack that is "thrown together" and the hierarchy achieved. Told from the dog's viewpoint.
> ...


RBD, I read that book and need to read the next. I think I remember that part. It's not a matter of them just establishing order. They all have done that, the only two in question really are 2 intact females that played a lot over the course of the younger ones life.. and ruff... but now that they are getting older they both are rather confused about who should be the boss. But that is totally unrelated to what I am asking.

I understand dogs work it out, and I let them as much as possible. But there is a limit to a correction given by a dog... and it is based off of what the other dog is saying at the moment too. I get all that. But how do you teach a dog to give an appropriate correction? I have my methods but am curious to other's.

But I second the opinion of the book, a great read with interesting perspectives.


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## Hbomb (Jan 24, 2012)

Ok, Hercules never ever corrects a dog! I was out with him and Bruno (his 2 yr old viszla friend). A lab came up and tried to hump Bruno who told him off with a growl. So then it went to hump h, who just sat there looking a bit confused but not seeming to mind!

This happened quite a lot, at puppy class there is a dog that humps him and its owner takes it off him otherwise he would just sit there all day ???

Will he learn how to 'correct' other dogs as he gets older ( he's only 9 months) or is he just a bit 'easy?' ;D


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

R said:


> we have no control over other dogs or their owners


Their owners, Maybe not though I find I often "direct" a bracemates owner to do something and often they do. 

Maybe it's because I'm a parent, but I have no problem telling other Parent's kids what to do, and the same with dogs. If they're interacting in my world and no one is leading them, I will. Just because we don't own them doesn't mean they don't understand who's in charge.

My .02
Ken


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## AKGInspiration (Aug 23, 2012)

WillowyndRanch said:


> R said:
> 
> 
> > we have no control over other dogs or their owners
> ...


Well said.. a big peeve of mine is when people don't make their dogs mind them.. and my dog has to suffer for it. I will give polite requests for them to keep better control of their dog but there comes a point where I am not going to make my dog live with it due to the owners lack of caring.. And in the end it really is not the other dog's fault too, totally the owners responsibility to be present with their dog. So I will either remove her (it's my job to lead and evaluate so sometimes that's the only option... and the best option) or I will just try and keep that dog from making contact with mine at all. Body blocking works well, simply stepping between that dog and mine will get the message across most times. Honestly usually the dogs are shocked by an owner actually stepping up in such a simple way that they just walk off.

Luna is one who also does not allow a dog to hump her. Some of her really close pals may get away with it once, but not a second time. BUT she loves to flirt... knowing that about her and how often it just leads the boys on to thinking they can hump... Sometimes I just have to get her to stop flirting as it won't end well for anyone as owners often won't bother to keep their dog from humping. So rather than give a chance of a little scuffle I just prevent it. You can try and control people but in the end sometimes they either just don't get it, or just don't care. This is one of the main reasons I give up on most dog parks. The clueless/not caring people usually far outweigh those with a clue... and I won't subject my dog to that when I have better options. 

Some dogs will never tell another dog off, and honestly that is usually easier to deal with than one that is the opposite. So enjoy it, step in to defend your dog if you need to... whether this means you have to do the work or get the owner to do the work, just depends on what you feel is needed. But remember you are the best ambassador for your dog, don't be afraid to stand up for them too.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

AKG - when Ken refers to a brace mate - that is in the field with an other owner at a hunt or field trial - odds are the pup has been trained to what ever level and all of you are there to achieve a common goal - at trials if PIKE is not hunting I would remove him from the field - at a dog park - been to one once in Fla- had no trouble stepping between PIKE and another pup - as to his owner I had no idea what his goals were for the pup and it was not my place to correct him/her - I just left - still stand by that if you are sane and the rest are nuts leave - at trials we are all there to learn - a correction for me is a learning tool - no more or less - when you and your pup are out and about it is safest to have around you people that have common goals and not people that are there to socialize them selves and not their pup


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

AKGInspiration said:


> I second the opinion that judges should not mark down on a dog for scars as they are hunting dogs, but I have no doubt that sadly some do. I love every one of Luna's scars, she does not have too many as she is so light on her feet and small but I find it a mark of her love for the hunt (of anything). Sometimes they even grow in white haired.
> 
> So I have a question... all this talk about letting dogs work it out. What would one do if you feel the dog corrected too hard? And did not back off when the other dog showed signs of giving in? I know this is probably a touchy subject, but maybe people can learn a couple things. Being able to explain dog greetings to clients is a complex thing sometimes depending on their dogs... pack order and dominance does still exist no matter how much people are trying to write it off as old school (don't get me started). We have a pack of 7 dogs here that run the property together. 3 breeds between them and intact and altered of both sexes... and they all get along for the most part, and I attribute that largely to the control we have on our dogs as pack leaders. They get to work it out to a degree, but in the end we determine the level.
> 
> So I am just curious, has anyone dealt with a dog that goes to correct but corrects too hard? How do you react and treat this as the pack leader?


Coming from a farm, we have always just let them work it out. Now that occassionally delivers a chewed or torn ear, or a small amount of claret spilt. Not often, but sometimes when one dog takes longer to accept the status. 

However, in the modern world, where we are faced with other people's "pets", then there are times where you must intervene in order to save the human aggravation or sometimes to protect your dog from a dog who does go to far and who is not a physical match. Ie a pit bull on a V puppy as an example. On the farm. all the dogs were of similar size as they were all working dogs, sheep or cattle dogs. So we always allowed things to work themselves out.

However, there were some dogs we had, that never, ever, ever would concede to the rank the other dog wished them to be. Another real life example is of two kelpies we had. They never worked it out and there was daily posturing and fights every other day. Once again, an occasional munted ear resulted, but never anything serious. Both dogs were physically similar and therefore, the fights were brief and relatively harmless mostly. 


I dropped out to a mate's farm last week who I grew up with. I hadn't been on the property for maybe ten years. It was funny to see that the same two dogs which were at each other ten years ago were still at it today, ten years on. They are both older now, 12 and 14 years old, but still have not settled the ranking.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

Ok, I have so many questions about this, I got the book, but just started reading it. 

In your initial blog post, RBD, the owner of the other dog had said that Tobi was waving a stick in front of him trying to assert his strength. Oso is always waving sticks around other dogs. To me, it appears that he's trying to get them to chase him. Sometimes, he tries to push the stick/toy/ball towards their mouth so they can grab on sometimes (for what I supposed was tug-a-war). Is this different than what Tobi was doing? 

Also, there are often dogs which just don't like Oso (in a novice opinion). Sooo for those of you more skilled in the ways of dogs. In what situations would you intervene/let play out. Keep in mind these are typically random dogs at a dog park. I don't know how well balanced they are, at one of the dog parks we go to most seem to be well balanced however.

A) Older Dog That Oso is Infatuated With - The older dog snaps/barks at Oso when he tries to play with them and Oso just gets more excited and starts play bowing all around the dog, jumping around. _What I do: I usually back up the older dog with a correction. _ Should I let the more mature dog correct (mostly these dogs seem well balanced and aren't crippled, just annoyed with puppy play). 

B) Male That Chases Oso Down - Oso likes to race around the park and get all the dogs chasing him (in zoomies or quarterback form). Male dog takes special interest in trying to take Oso down and pin him. Oso will run faster or do spins to avoid, keep playing or race under a bench or to my legs to try to hide, depending on the dog's assertiveness. _What I do: I take Oso and leave if I see a dog trying to do this or just trying to pin him even once. Oso needed several stitches after a dog tried to pull him down while he is running. Usually Oso is too fast, but not always. _ 

Those are the most common that I can think of where have conflict. Sometimes I will just see a dog who I think is playing too roughly and we will leave. We try to stay away from dogs who puff out their chests in general (is this wrong). Sometimes they will puff out their chest and just look at another dog and then kind of twitch their tail. Oso hasn't done it, but if a dog does that to him, I feel we should just leave. Do you think Oso is doing something to trigger that behavior or is it just his hormones?


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## AKGInspiration (Aug 23, 2012)

R said:


> AKG - when Ken refers to a brace mate - that is in the field with an other owner at a hunt or field trial - odds are the pup has been trained to what ever level and all of you are there to achieve a common goal - at trials if PIKE is not hunting I would remove him from the field - at a dog park - been to one once in Fla- had no trouble stepping between PIKE and another pup - as to his owner I had no idea what his goals were for the pup and it was not my place to correct him/her - I just left - still stand by that if you are sane and the rest are nuts leave - at trials we are all there to learn - a correction for me is a learning tool - no more or less - when you and your pup are out and about it is safest to have around you people that have common goals and not people that are there to socialize them selves and not their pup


Thanks, I knew what he was referring to, I run hunt tests and try and make sure Luna keeps to herself and away from the other dog as best I can. Sometimes they're just too quick but overall it's pretty easy to go separate directions. 

I do the same thing at the dog park if need be. (Been 3 years since I have even gone to one though). I actually often don't even wait that long, I evaluate the dogs and owners coming in... and if I feel like there is a pair that just is not in control then we usually will just leave. I know my dog really really well, she though she is small she will take on anyone that starts something with her. By that I mean she won't back down if they start it... she is 36lbs and decided that she could handle herself with a 153lb american bulldog. Thank the lord it was a lot of noise and movements... nobody got hurt. But knowing that she is not a wuss makes me even more careful with who I even let her work it out with. If I feel like that dog will challenge her right back I just require they stay equals as best I can... and avoid that dog is we can't do anything else about it. She does really well for me overall with it. 

My question is this, say I trust the dog she is running with and the owner (much like the lady with RBD in the recent post).. if they do try and sort it out over a stick or toy.. and one correct "too hard" in that they didn't stop as quick as I though they should... or if the snap was too much for such a minor thing. How do you show the dog that that was an inappropriate correction amount? Just curious.
Sorry for any confusion, been interesting to read everyone's experiences though. Dogs keep us honest for sure


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

AKGInspiration said:


> My question is this, say I trust the dog she is running with and the owner (much like the lady with RBD in the recent post).. if they do try and sort it out over a stick or toy.. and one correct "too hard" in that they didn't stop as quick as I though they should... or if the snap was too much for such a minor thing. How do you show the dog that that was an inappropriate correction amount? Just curious.


Just to clarify, we are talking about two things in essence here as I see it. The first is a dog correcting another dog in a normal dog manner. The second is a dog fight. I see these as two separate issues. Sometimes yes, the correction can lead to a dog fight, but for this discussion, I am going to try to stick with the "too hard" of a correction question.

In my experience, the dogs themselves are better determiners of levels of necessary correction (remember I'm not talking about a dog fight here) than what we as humans think the level should be. We tend as a species in the coddling of our loved dogs to be overprotective as a whole. If there is snapping and growling of one correcting and the other backing out of it or submitting, and the first may body hold the other down for a moment - so long as it is a correction rather than an escalation to cause harm, I'll generally let the dog sort it out. I will caution, but generally just closely supervise ready to jump in if it turns from correction to aggression. Without understanding dog body language it is very difficult to put into words.

On the other hand, sometimes things just happen very, very quickly. I had two dogs doing Zoomies. One ran around a structure one way and the other the other way and as they turned a corner collided. Before I could open my mouth it was a quick fight, over in two steps towards them and holes in both dogs. A moment of fun turned in an instant. I wish there were a magic formula but just like every species, sometimes they just "flip the switch" and it's time to jump in and separate them. In thinking about it over the years, I can't really think of an instance where a correction turned to a dog fight, but posturing by near equals in the hierarchy and body slams have.

Ken


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## AKGInspiration (Aug 23, 2012)

Ken you shed further light on it all thanks, and I totally agree and have seen all scenarios you describe. This happened the other day while playing with a stick. Luna had it and was leading the chase as usual/normal. She had 2 young labs on her trying to get it. She eventually slowed down and was maneuvering out of each of their ways, while standing pretty still. Her posture was saying "okay I am more serious than play right now and this is *my* stick." They both were still trying to snatch it having seen this from her before and still taking it in the end. well eventually the female grab it and a fight broke out (i say fight mainly because I didn't see any signs of one submitting to the other..) It sounds much like your collision incident in a way.

Luna is not overly possessive over things (in fact it's kinda annoying how rather than deal with the tank of a lab coming for the stick she will often just drop it.. taught her the same thing at dog parks back in the day.. Avoid confrontation and drop your toy rather than get into it) and my thinking is that the snatch was too rude or got some skin when it happened so she went to correct for that. Well there was no backing down by the other younger female. She was snapping back at her BUT it may have been because Luna had a good hold on her (saw her near her eye).... but it also could be because that younger lab is finally starting to grow up and mature and didn't want to back down. We really will never know, anyway it went on much longer than I had wanted despite my efforts to get them to knock it off, i was worried as it was face biting. Sure enough the younger lab walked away with a cut eyelid.. Nothing major, it quickly stopped weeping and never went to full swelling even. Checked it all over etc. 

So who was at fault? I don't know if we can really say. But there have been times where I felt Luna did overcorrect. About 4 times while wyatt was a puppy, he clearly was backing off and she did not shut off her correction at these signals... so I have worked with her on that and she has gotten a lot more tolerant and better at giving an appropriate correction. Maybe her "normal" correction is just more than what I think it should be? But IMO when a dog shows signs of backing down the correction should stop right? There should be a moment of peace for that more dominant dog to make sure that the submissive one got the message and then they walk away. That's what I have seen anyway and am comfortable with. I love dog body language and it's one of the biggest things I try and teach my clients... as nobody else seems to be. It's so key to how dogs work, it's sad how little people know about it... and thus their dogs don't either it seems.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

While dove hunting this weekend a friend brought his year and a half old male lab. Him and Cash got along great unless I had Cash on sit while hunting.
The lab was young and not fully trained. It would take off from its owner and come visit Cash. Cash would stay on sit and give it a growl to let him know to back off.
The dog did this Saturday and the started it again on Sunday. The lab seemed to pay no mind to the growl and would put his nose to Cash even with the warning. I told the owner his dog wasn't really doing anything wrong, but that Cash might correct him if he continued to ignore the warning growl. It happened close to the end of the hunt. Cash was waiting to be sent for a retrive he had marked. The lab came up and bumped him and Cash growled staying on sit with eyes on the mark. The the lab brushed up on him in a lets play mode. That's when Cash latched on to the top of the labs neck right behind the ears. He held him for maybe 3-4 seconds then turned him loose. He sat back down waiting for the retrive. The dog went whimpering back to its owner. I felt bad for what Cash had did, the lab is just happy go lucky and isn't a serious hunter yet. I did see it coming and don't know if the owner knew what I meant when I told him Cash would correct him.


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## AKGInspiration (Aug 23, 2012)

It happens Red, and I don't think your dog was at fault. What I would have done is told them that Cash had warned several times but the dog didn't seem to be getting it... So would he mind trying to keep his dog checked in a bit more.

I am not afraid to tell people my dog likes her space, gives them a heads up if their dog is getting too pushy and Luna does have to correct. But in the end I rather not have her correct as I don't know the other dog as well and whether it will back down or not... or to what level it will be taken till one does back down. I do know Luna will not back down very often, if at all so I rather not even let them get into it if there is a way to prevent it. 

But sometimes they just gotta learn lessons. Sounds like that lab did, and then was a drama queen about it lol. Not really anyone's fault, and I think our dog was very appropriate.


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