# Defiant Behavior



## pjcodner (Jun 1, 2015)

We suspect that our nearly 5 month old is peeing on purpose as defiant behavior. Yesterday she got a "time out" for biting. She was on a leash that was attached to the sofa. As we watched TV nearby, she got on a nearby bean bag chair and peed on it.

Later that night when it was time for bed, she jumped onto OUR bed and refused to go into her crate. After 10 minutes of trying to coax her, we picked her up (she growled) and placed her in the crate. Before closing the crate door, I showed her the new fluffy blanket in her crate and spoke sweetly to her. She scratched at the blanket a few times and then peed on it!

Chloe is potty trained and barks when she needs to go outside. She had relieved herself outside about 30 minutes before each incident. Is she peeing intentionally because she is mad at us? Has anyone had similar behavior? I feel like this is a giant step backwards in puppy progress. Ugh.


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## Cooperpooperscooper (Jan 25, 2015)

Cooper did the same to us. He once tinkled on bed so we took him out to finish peeing, but didn't and when he came back in peed on the other bed. We was hangry. He also growled at me a couple times so i kicked him off the couch and gave him the silent treatment (he hates it). He was pretty good for a bit and then he did the growl at me and he was stubborn about following commands. This was all about the same age as your. He is 13 months now. I feel like each week is different. Its like a child; constantly testing boundaries.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I don't think she is peeing to be defiant, but honestly I don't always know what my dogs are thinking. Every young dog I have known, try's to test the rules at some time or another. Stick to your guns, stay consistence, and it will soon pass.


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

I think you're anthropomorhizing here. Dog's don't urinate in "Defiance". They are predators, and when they're 'In defiance" you know it..they become aggressive: Ears back, teeth out, growling...or worse. Dogs don't get "Mad" the way people do..oh thankfully!... if their boundaries have been crossed, they show that other side. No passive aggressiveness, the message is very simple, and very clear.

Rather, your Chloe sounds confused and anxious. Look at it from her perspective: In your first example, she was doing what comes naturally, using her mouth to communicate..and somehow biting got involved. Why'd she do that, what was the interaction? Your response of giving her a human"'Time out" probably wasn't understood by her, so she became anxious and lost bladder control. Dogs don't like to mess the nest, she didn't do this on purpose (defiance), rather, she's expressing her inner state of anxiety at your reaction.

In your second example with the crate, she might be expressing her anxiety at the impending separation from you, they're very smart and realize when it's crate time. If she associates crate time with just the separation, she's going to have anxiety about that...makes sense. Your experience of the crate and the nice soft blanket in there is a lot different than hers. So, she goes in, has an anxiety reaction, and loses bladder control again.

The solution is to try to think of their behavior from their perspective rather than your own ("Mother Knows Best", by Carol Lea Benjamin, +1 dog psychology and training book), and apply the principles of that understanding to your dog. So, in the first example, understand why she was biting you in the first place, what was going on there?, and use that to avoid similar situations in the future. Every bad instance of puppy behavior doesn't need to be followed by some punishment, but rather as a tincture of understanding to be used in the future by yourself.


In the second example with the crate, try using the crate not so much as an isolation chamber, but rather her nest, her place by feeding her in it and giving her very special treats while she's in it with the door open. Consider even crawling in there for a smooch or two so she associates the crate with lots of pleasant things, which, although they won't make her forget about the necessary isolation, at least counter balance it.


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## Rbka (Apr 21, 2014)

After Nico was potty trained he peed on our bed once and on the carpet in our bedroom a couple times. Nowhere but our bedroom. I read about dogs trying to "hide their scent" under their pack leader(s)' scent(s) as a survival behaviour. Not sure if this makes sense in your situation though...

The more embarrassing issue that we dealt with was Nico peeing on other humans' legs at the dog park (happened 3 times... ugh)

We switched 100% to "pee on command" training. For a time we didn't allow him in the bedroom and when he was on leash and only allowed him to pee where would tell him to go (which was also a great idea because he is insanely keen to sniff everything and mark quite a lot). Now we trust him again at the dog park but we took a couple months break. It has been since last December that he has peed on someone's leg thank goodness.

Good luck!


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

Rbka said:


> After Nico was potty trained he peed on our bed once and on the carpet in our bedroom a couple times. Nowhere but our bedroom. I read about dogs trying to "hide their scent" under their pack leader(s)' scent(s) as a survival behaviour. Not sure if this makes sense in your situation though...
> 
> The more embarrassing issue that we dealt with was Nico peeing on other humans' legs at the dog park (happened 3 times... ugh)
> 
> ...


100% pee on command? I've heard of a specific potty area, always a good idea, but getting them to go on command? You never want to get into a control struggle with your dog...yet another anthropomorphism. The examples you cite with Nico sound like a dominance display. Alpha gets to mark the territory and make it theirs. So, your bedroom...which has all your smells...makes him want to mark over them to make it his. Urinating on other people in the park...were they females?...is another example of dominance. Staying away is one way of obviously avoiding the behavior, but it doesn't address it. To do that, you need to figure out why he's thinking he's actually Alpha. 

Simple things, like having him wait for the "OK" command before eating or walking into your bedroom or jumping out of the car at the park reinforce the pack order and your dominance.

Sounds like your Nico is having some problems with dominance. This is a lot different than the original post. Dogs


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

DEFIANT -what a silly word 2 apply 2 a V - from 8wks 2 16yrs old - they try 2 set boundrys - you as the alpha leader cut them off !!!!!!! tone of voice - a look - puts the pup back in it's place - chain me 2 the couch !!!!!!! I would V Pissed off


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## pjcodner (Jun 1, 2015)

I come to this forum for advice, not to be judged or ridiculed. Chloe was not chained to the couch! She was restrained with a thin leash and laying in her bed a few feet from us. What better advice do you have? Chloe was trying to chew the wires behind the TV. We pulled her out twice and told her NO. Then the "shark attacks" began and my clothing was torn and my skin was bleeding, so we gave her a time out. I would appreciate advice, not criticism.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I wouldn't worry to much about how someone words something. We all have slightly different ways of getting the same results with our dogs.
My dogs have literally been on the chain gang.
Working multiple dogs, and needing to change them out in a field. A chain gang just makes sense. 
So if some one made a comment on me chaining a dog. I would just say "Yes, yes I did, and you will likely see me do it again."


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## Canadian Expy (Feb 27, 2013)

pjcodner said:


> I come to this forum for advice, not to be judged or ridiculed. Chloe was not chained to the couch! She was restrained with a thin leash and laying in her bed a few feet from us. What better advice do you have? Chloe was trying to chew the wires behind the TV. We pulled her out twice and told her NO. Then the "shark attacks" began and my clothing was torn and my skin was bleeding, so we gave her a time out. I would appreciate advice, not criticism.


Using a leash to make corrections to a pup is beneficial. What I would suggest (I practice it with every dog that comes into my home) is keep the lead on your pup hanging behind them, with someone supervising at all times (an unsupervised pup is one who can get into trouble, and with your pup's interest in wires I would certainly be extra cautious). If your pup goes over to the wires give a short quick pop on the lead with the command (No!, off!, whatever). Keep the command short and the tone low, and be calm and consistent. Same thing if the dog goes up on a piece of furniture, your bed, etc - use the leash to remove the dog while you give the command. If you can't supervise the pup then I would give the pup some crate time until you can focus your attention back on them, but keep in mind you don't want the crate to be seen as a punishment, so if you don't have the time/attention span to monitor the pup proactively put them in the crate. 

The behavior your describing - growling, peeing on things... it sounds like your pup is trying to take over the presidency role in your home. Lay down some consistent ground rules so that your girl learns her place. If you haven't already done so, I would look into taking your girl to obedience class. A good, positive trainer will get you and your pup on the right track.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

pjco sorry (this is a first ) that you took my reply that it was directed at you - when we post or reply - it is for the whole forum - defiant is not a silly word ! PIKE does it everyday - at some level ! just the nature of a well bred V - so yes - defiant is just a silly word 2 me - I have never deprived personal contact with me - no matter how bad they were - I never insult someone - unless it is face 2 face - I'm just OLD SCHOOL !!!!!!!!!!


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

pjcodner said:


> I come to this forum for advice, not to be judged or ridiculed. Chloe was not chained to the couch! She was restrained with a thin leash and laying in her bed a few feet from us. What better advice do you have? Chloe was trying to chew the wires behind the TV. We pulled her out twice and told her NO. Then the "shark attacks" began and my clothing was torn and my skin was bleeding, so we gave her a time out. I would appreciate advice, not criticism.


Who is this directed at? 

If it was me, I certainly apologize, although re reading my post I'm not aware of any judgement or certainly not ridicule in my motivation.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

pjco ? did I read your post wrong - on a time out ? as you watch TV - you lease the pup 2 the couch - yes or no - my answer was simple - get a new vet - you willing 2 work hard - me - you have 10secs 2 correct a V - with holding affection DOES NOT WORK 4 a V


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

pjc - gin -I do get off point !!!!!! I do LOVE my V's as you do - lets get 2 geather 4 a V wizz- keep the dark side out (WIRED ) I will have 1 !!!!!!!!!!! @ 8wks old or 16yrs old - they take a lot of work - just the way it IS !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## pjcodner (Jun 1, 2015)

Thank you, Mr. McCraith, for the apology. I was hurt by the post because I actually got the idea of a "time out" or restraining our puppy from this very forum. It has been very helpful when Chloe is shark attacking me when I am alone with her during the day. As a stay at home Mom, I am with Chloe 24-7. She is never out of my sight. The naughty behavior (like attempting to chew the TV wires) happened right in front of me. Every day is a challenge and a learning experience. We are just trying to be the best Vizsla family we can be.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

pjo - first call me Ron - the first thing I read in your POST - is - how much you LOVE your new V !!!!!!!! the 2nd - how frustrating they R - LOL - just a fact of life - I just reply from my personal experience - after 45yrs with 1-2 V's in my LIFE - they do it every day - just have 2 put life in balance - some days they think they WON - end of DAY - YOU WON - LOL !!!!!!


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