# StarMark Pro-Training Collar



## threefsh

I'm looking into trying out this collar with Riley now that she's gotten larger and stronger. Does anyone have experience with it? I won't use the metal prong collar on her, but this looks like a much gentler alternative.

http://starmarkacademy.com/products/pro-training-collar/


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## datacan

I hope it's not plastic. If it is may break away at some point during use.
The weak point with the martingales style collars is the arm must move a great distance before any action is felt by the dog. The dog ends up anticipating every arm movement.
The Prong collars have the same weakness unless both rings are coupled. 

What do you think of this one:

http://www.herm-sprenger-collars-store.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34&products_id=511 

http://www.herm-sprenger-collars-store.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=34


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## datacan

A little more background on this collar. I don't know who copied whom but I know Don Sullivan mentioned he invented a very similar collar. He called it the command collar.
http://www.dogfather.tv/productinfo.php

I must admit his training method works but is not for the faint of heart or what I hear other trainers refer to as "the tree hugger approach", something this and many other dog forums suffer of, plenty. With treats one can only reach partial results, the rest is repetition and enforcement without treats.
Sullivan's methods concentrate on the enforcement part. A verbal command along with a hand gesture is the command. The dog is allowed 2 seconds to comply after which a correction *must* be applied. This is where the command collar comes in. The dog knows he missed the command and the punishment is coming every time, even if at a distance.... 
The correction is 2 pretty powerful tugs at the leash, something that the dog has to find pretty discomforting but not so hard as to break him.
From experience, I know that most men (never mind women) don't have it in them to apply the necessary pressure to get the desired results from a metal prong collar. Never mind a plastic collar that "mimics the bite of the mother dog".

I used to have Tony (Mephisto when he was bad), a German Shepherd dog who's training was based on Don Sullivan's method.
As outdated as it is called, his method yields pretty good results. Caesar Milllan is criticized plenty these days for his corrections, imagine someone who doesn't use treats at all, even to teach the command 

Times change, the idea of new and improved always sells.... treats and clicker training is gentle, I used it for our Sam (Vizsla), but switched to correction based training when he was 8 months. And later, at 10 months we progressed to the e collar ( the prong collar on steroids).

In any case, considering this collar is a step in the right direction.
Most professional trainers are called too late when the dog is already a threat to society and these same professionals are later ridiculed and criticized for training the dog too harshly. When in fact all they are doing is saving the dog's life, perhaps from being euthanized. 
http://www.dogfather.tv/dogmyths.php


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## threefsh

Okay, my dog must be getting on the forum when I'm not looking because for the past few days she has walked beautifully on leash with almost zero pulling. ??? I can see the issue with using a plastic collar that may break. We may try a martingale collar first and see if that helps. If not, the herm sprenger collar looks like a good option.


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## Ozkar

Threefsh, persevere if you can before going down that type of route........ Please!!!!! I beg you. Would you wear it?


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## Ozkar

datacan said:


> A little more background on this collar. I don't know who copied whom but I know Don Sullivan mentioned he invented a very similar collar. He called it the command collar.
> http://www.dogfather.tv/productinfo.php
> 
> I must admit his training method works but is not for the faint of heart or what I hear other trainers refer to as "the tree hugger approach", something this and many other dog forums suffer of, plenty. With treats one can only reach partial results, the rest is repetition and enforcement without treats.
> Sullivan's methods concentrate on the enforcement part. A verbal command along with a hand gesture is the command. *The dog is allowed 2 seconds to comply after which a correction must be applied.* This is where the command collar comes in. The dog knows he missed the command and the punishment is coming every time, even if at a distance....
> The correction is 2 pretty powerful tugs at the leash, something that the dog has to find pretty discomforting but not so hard as to break him.
> From experience, I know that most men (never mind women) don't have it in them to apply the necessary pressure to get the desired results from a metal prong collar. Never mind a plastic collar that "mimics the bite of the mother dog".
> 
> I used to have Tony (Mephisto when he was bad), a German Shepherd dog who's training was based on Don Sullivan's method.
> As outdated as it is called, his method yields pretty good results. Caesar Milllan is criticized plenty these days for his corrections, imagine someone who doesn't use treats at all, even to teach the command
> 
> Times change, the idea of new and improved always sells.... treats and clicker training is gentle, I used it for our Sam (Vizsla), but switched to correction based training when he was 8 months. And later, at 10 months we progressed to the e collar ( the prong collar on steroids).
> 
> In any case, considering this collar is a step in the right direction.
> Most professional trainers are called too late when the dog is already a threat to society and these same professionals are later ridiculed and criticized for training the dog too harshly. When in fact all they are doing is saving the dog's life, perhaps from being euthanized.
> http://www.dogfather.tv/dogmyths.php


A correction does not have to be a prong style collar. I must be a tree hugging, dope smoking, hippy then. As my methods do not rely on the laziness of utilising pain inflicting devices. I don;t care how many people extol the virtues of these types of devices as I am firmly of the belief from my personal training experiences that even a very stubborn dog can be corrected without the need for one. 

I do not treat train once past 6 months of age either. To me treat training is a temporary thing.

At the end of the day, all a dog wants to do is please you? Perhaps it's the methods you use which are causing the need for a device like this??? Perhaps it's not either, but I don;t know your methods. But, I get results without the need for them. I must be really lucky hey! 

As I always say, each to there own. But, I will disagree whenever I see a thread or comment suggesting there use as I do not agree with them.


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## kellygh

_A correction does not have to be a prong style collar. I must be a tree hugging, dope smoking, hippy then._ ;D


Agree that this style of prong collar is overkill for a V, especially a pup. Maurice Lindly uses a flat leather "pinch" collar with very dull, maybe 1/4 " squared rivets on some dogs when more formal field training begins. He does not typically start "formal" training (pressure to tie in obedience w/ birds) until Vs are approx 16-20m. Depends on the dog's mental maturity/temperament. Pumpkin pulls when she is in new/unfamiliar territory with a lot of unusual stimulation. I attribute the pulling to me needing to spend more time handling in those situations. I personally would not consider this type of collar for a V of any age, but as Ozkar said, each to his own. Good Luck


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## Mischa

We used a prong collar for quite a while. The hope was that she would learn that pulling hurts, and would stop.
Did not happen. If the prong was not on, she'd pull HARD. She'd even pull through the pain of the prong fairly often...

I worked a lot at heel training, mostly using an English slip lead. We got to the point where she'd walk really well AFTER her off-leash run, but never before it.

I got an e-collar to help with a variety of issues that we had, and because she knew what the command 'heel' meant, the lowest zap on the collar is all she needed to realize that when I say 'heel', I mean it every time...


Ozkar, I appreciate your point of view, and to be completely honest, I wish I could have trained my dog without any pain inflicting devices. 
The fact of the matter is, I tried the nice way using treats while she was at heel, and changing direction quickly with no snap on the leash at all. These both would work momentarily, but never stuck. 
After 2 years of having my low back discs tugged around, I decided that I needed to try 1 last thing. The e-collar has served me well. 
I understand what you mean by the 'lazy' approach, but it isn't always the case. I can admit that my dog is only as good as my ability to train her, but it is not from a lack of effort.


Gunnr has a great write-up posted on how he leash trains his dogs. I used his method, but obviously the guy at the other end of the leash is an important part of the equation, because it didn't work as well as I had hoped. 
It did teach her heel, she just prefers to be up ahead sniffing out our next steps. 
Now, with the help of an e-collar, she walks how I like her to, not pulling me to the next scent. 

When you get a chance, would you type out your process of teaching 'heel'?


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## kellygh

Mischa: Appreciate the honest post. I think many of us, at least me, often feel frustrated when touted methods of training do not work. Pumpkin has done well with heel, but we are challenged in other ways. As said, if we are in a new, high-stim environment, she pulls like a train. Acts like a loon. In the field, she comes unglued with excitement, and I might as well be whistling Dixie and not exist! Of course, it almost always happens when I would like to show her off, ie: at our trainers/around hunters ;D I remember trainer saying his mantra is "do no harm" with the soft breeds, because they are unforgiving. This led into a discussion of the ways soft breeds might shutdown. It was hypothesized by folks who know much more than me that the shutdown manifests itself differently in diff dogs. Some won't hunt, some lose all confidence, some become fear aggressive, and others become even more "uncontrollable" or excited. IDK, but the reason I wouldn't use the aforementioned collar for a V is the "guy (gal in my case) at the other end of the leash." I too wish I had more concrete examples, descriptions of "how to" when handling certain situations--especially in the field when more experienced folks aren't around. I read, ask, read some more, but I'm often left with the "uh-oh," what do I do? Many books will discuss a response, such as a reprimand, for ignoring commands in the field. Well what to do if the dog is not on a check cord due to the thick brush & briars, is not listening, and has not been started on an e-collar? So many scenarios I can think of with different nuances around them, and all the training tips just don't seem to be working. Atsome point, I think all people who keep getting the same unwanted results, are willing to try a lot of things.


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## texasred

Well what to do if the dog is not on a check cord due to the thick brush & briars, is not listening, and has not been started on an e-collar?

kellygh
I wouldn't bother calling him in that situation. There is no need to command something you can't enforce. I would just keep walking and eventually he will tire and come to me and yes I know it can take a while. When he is already coming to me on his own, that's when I would call him.
If you run him with dogs that have good recall they will sometimes follow the other dog back to you. In situations with heavy brush I use a shorter check cord.


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## Ozkar

It's a fast paced world with a very impatient attitude mostly these days. I see people who are attempting to train there dog/s and if they do not appear to have a result in a week or month they start thinking the method is wrong, or that there particular dog is "More stubborn" than others. Then they start looking for alternatives like this.

Patience, persistence and consistency are the only ways you will achieve what you want. 

My dogs are my family, my kids............ I would never use anything but patience with my human kids, so why alter that with a dog? 

As for heel, if you start with treats inside the home on lead or off it doesn't matter. Sit the dog, hold a treat in your hand down near it's face, give the heel command and walk. If you position the treat where it will put the dog into the heel position naturally, they will start to get the idea.

Then you step it up to doing it outside on lead. No treats. The moment the dog pulls or even steps ahead of the heel position, you stop. Give the sit command, start again, praise of course when the dog is walking as you want. Keep repeating, walk after walk, day after day, month after month. They will get it eventually. But just because it doesn't stop the pulling in one week, one month doesn't mean a device is required. It means you need to either do it more often, be more consistent or continue for a little longer. 

Because I only had Ozkar a few days a week from the age of 6 or 7 months of age, this took me till about 10 months till he would walk nicely. But, I prefer to persevere than resort to something which I wouldn't use on me!


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## Mischa

Ozkar said:


> It's a fast paced world with a very impatient attitude mostly these days. I see people who are attempting to train there dog/s and if they do not appear to have a result in a week or month they start thinking the method is wrong, or that there particular dog is "More stubborn" than others. Then they start looking for alternatives like this.


Yes it is a fast paced world, and Mischa's a lucky one. I am not a patient man, and I gave her 22 months of training to get what I was saying.
I needed some help and for our case, it was the perfect tool. 
If you could feel just how mild a "shock" it is, you'd laugh in my dogs face for it, and probably call her gay... 
I know I did! 

Think 9v battery on your tongue as level 1 of the collar I have. I use 0.5 on her as it's all she needs to respond. It isn't painful, it sends a perfectly consistent message every time.

Believe me, I've seen an e-collar misused on our first forest run with Mischa and a number of Vizsla's. A Brittany did not respond to it's owner. We'll call him "jackass", so jackass shocked the crap out of this dog right in front of us causing it to leap in the air and let out the most horrendous YELP I've ever heard.
That being the first time I'd ever heard of an e-collar, I instantly dismissed them as tools for jackasses...

Our bird trainer whom I consider the best dog trainer I have ever met, introduced Mischa to the e-collar last year using a very low setting, and the results were very impressive. I thought it was great for field work where she was ranging out in search of birds but still didn't feel it necessary to buy one of my own.

We continued on with "leave-it" while off leash, and heel training. These are really our only 2 issues. She is such a great dog and I do love her. I did not buy an e-collar to hurt her and make her submit. I bought it to use as a consistent "NO" that for whatever reason, she was not always interested in paying attention to. Now, she is interested. I've even managed to fool her into thinking that punishment is a nice thing, as the poor dog gets crazy happy every time I pull the collar out. I did a good intro with it, but I think she associates it with birds from her bird lady as she doesn't get to this level for anything but birds... 

Dumb dog is still the happiest I've ever met. ;D
If that changed, I'd have tossed the e-collar in the trash.


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## datacan

Ozkar, I really respect your approach and patience. 
Having said that, there is very little the average dog owner can accomplish. Most ordinary dog owners (you are not ordinary) end up with unruly teenager dogs.

My goal as far as training is concerned, for the dog to attain freedom. I work with Sam for his freedom. 
How much better life is it to be able to walk off leash all the time, without being fearful that the dog will run into traffic, jump/bother/intimidate children or eat poop everywhere (male dogs are less affected by this affliction but not immune).

In combining treats (at home only) and enforcement training I now am able to walk the dog off-lead for the most part everywhere - daily. Crossing streets, not bothering children (still goes and introduces himself), not bother dogs passing by (still introduces himself but much calmer). There is lots more work but at this point I consider Sam's life improved quite a bit. He is only one year old (Feb 23).

The e collar is important, although not indispensable. There is no need to stimulate the dog at all. All it takes is to instill the idea of consequence if he ignores commands. For best results stimulation should be intermittent. Four times no stim one time stim. This way the dog has no idea when and how hard the consequence will be. 
Most of us functioning in society think of consequences before we break laws. Pretty obvious, one should not expect a pleasant experience if one decides to break laws. A law that carries less consequences is a law that is more likely to be broken first. 
Why would we expect any less of a dog for whom we are held responsible.

Enforcement training is not the lazy man's way. Quite opposite. It is knowing where and what the dog is doing all the time. It is more complicated than clicker or reward training. BTW in most clicker training the click comes too late and the dog ends up being rewarded for slow behavior. Click must come as soon as the dog turns or intends to turn (even better).
Enforcement training is quite to the point because the dog always knows what he is doing. Think RBD's post on chickens and dogs.

* Aren't you glad your local service K9 unit was not treat trained, entirely? While most of those dogs work to play with a favorite toy, enforcement training is necessary. New dogs are introduced to their handlers with food rewards (this is pretty new), that way biting/nipping the handler incidents are reduced quite a bit and the dogs end up more tolerant the initial enforcements.

Most dog owners see their dog as family, as children, as companions. Wouldn't it be better if those dogs were trained pretty quickly to stop pulling, jumping, eating sh*t, chewing stuff, and above all growling and nipping/biting? At the very least, this should be a priority and waiting 2 or 3 years is purely insane, IMO. 
We live in a complicated society and our dogs must learn our ways quickly. If not, they end up in shelters because very few will bother rehabilitating them when they are mature.
http://blackpoolkennels.com/rescue.html


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## threefsh

We purchased an "Easy Walk" harness today to see if it helps with the pulling. Riley does an excellent heel if treats are involved, but only after she's had plenty of exercise. We will continue to work with her and see if we can get rid of the pulling without using harsher methods.


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## MAPLEBABY

Hiya
Just thought my humble opinion might help. Our trainer recommended the starmark collar and it has been working great for us. I understand a lot of people are concerned it's too harsh because that's exactly what I was thinking too. But I believe it can be a great tool(definitely not for everyone) as long as it's used correctly. Our trainer stressed that we pull the leash attached to the collar only upwards not in any other directions only once if correction is needed. Also the ring part has to face upward and collar has to stay at the top of the neck. Surprisingly after one session with the trainer we hardly need to give her corrections on the collar as if she knows collar-on means it's time to walk nice. So in my opinion it's more humane to have that collar on and no correction than letting her choke herself&getting my arm yanked on a regular collar.


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## Ozkar

MAPLEBABY said:


> Hiya
> Just thought my humble opinion might help. Our trainer recommended the starmark collar and it has been working great for us. I understand a lot of people are concerned it's too harsh because that's exactly what I was thinking too. But I believe it can be a great tool(definitely not for everyone) as long as it's used correctly. Our trainer stressed that we pull the leash attached to the collar only upwards not in any other directions only once if correction is needed. Also the ring part has to face upward and collar has to stay at the top of the neck. Surprisingly after one session with the trainer we hardly need to give her corrections on the collar as if she knows collar-on means it's time to walk nice. So in my opinion it's more humane to have that collar on and no correction *than letting her choke herself*&getting my arm yanked on a regular collar.


Could it possibly have been achieved without the collar? Was it necessarily the only way it could be achieved???


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## finch

threefsh said:


> We purchased an "Easy Walk" harness today to see if it helps with the pulling.



We had success with the Easy Walk Harness and even more success with the Gentle Leader on our 2 labs. They were our first dogs (adopted 6 months apart) and we didn't know anything about training or dogs for that matter! Since Finch is being trained for CGC and Therapy Dog Certification, she has to have a loose lead walk with no aides, so I haven't tried either on her. She still pulls on occasion but with consistant corrections and daily training, her loose lead walk is getting very good. I find it is getting even better now that we are practicing "heel." I still have not had succes in getting a loose lead walk when approaching the dog park though... I'll get it for about 20 steps, then she'll "zoom" forward. Though as Ozkar says, I think putting in the time will really pay off... in the scheme of things, she is still young and if I can get a true loose lead walk with no aides by putting in the time now, it will be worth it in the long run. Good luck!

Edit: Once thing I forgot to mention is that I ALWAYS use a 4' lead with Finch - never a Flexilead anymore and that made a world of difference! We now always keep the Flexilead on the shortest it will go when walking the 2 labs and that has cut down on pulling.


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## Ozkar

finch said:


> threefsh said:
> 
> 
> 
> We purchased an "Easy Walk" harness today to see if it helps with the pulling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We had success with the Easy Walk Harness and even more success with the Gentle Leader on our 2 labs. They were our first dogs (adopted 6 months apart) and we didn't know anything about training or dogs for that matter! Since Finch is being trained for CGC and Therapy Dog Certification, she has to have a loose lead walk with no aides, so I haven't tried either on her. She still pulls on occasion *but with consistant corrections and daily training, her loose lead walk is getting very good. I find it is getting even better now that we are practicing* "heel." I still have not had succes in getting a loose lead walk when approaching the dog park though... I'll get it for about 20 steps, then she'll "zoom" forward. Though as Ozkar says, I think putting in the time will really pay off... in the scheme of things, she is still young and if I can get a true loose lead walk with no aides by putting in the time now, it will be worth it in the long run. Good luck!
> 
> Edit: Once thing I forgot to mention is that I ALWAYS use a 4' lead with Finch - never a Flexilead anymore and that made a world of difference! We now always keep the Flexilead on the shortest it will go when walking the 2 labs and that has cut down on pulling.
Click to expand...

The highlighted area in your post is the key once again. I love hearing this!!!   


As for the park thing, I got through that stage with mine. Now, I let them out of the car and they walk with me in a heel... all three....not on a lead at all.........right along the path and up to the gate. They know if they are not good, we don't go in.


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## datacan

Ozkar said:


> finch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> threefsh said:
> 
> 
> 
> We purchased an "Easy Walk" harness today to see if it helps with the pulling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We had success with the Easy Walk Harness and even more success with the Gentle Leader on our 2 labs. They were our first dogs (adopted 6 months apart) and we didn't know anything about training or dogs for that matter! Since Finch is being trained for CGC and Therapy Dog Certification, she has to have a loose lead walk with no aides, so I haven't tried either on her. She still pulls on occasion *but with consistant corrections and daily training, her loose lead walk is getting very good. I find it is getting even better now that we are practicing* "heel." I still have not had succes in getting a loose lead walk when approaching the dog park though... I'll get it for about 20 steps, then she'll "zoom" forward. Though as Ozkar says, I think putting in the time will really pay off... in the scheme of things, she is still young and if I can get a true loose lead walk with no aides by putting in the time now, it will be worth it in the long run. Good luck!
> 
> Edit: Once thing I forgot to mention is that I ALWAYS use a 4' lead with Finch - never a Flexilead anymore and that made a world of difference! We now always keep the Flexilead on the shortest it will go when walking the 2 labs and that has cut down on pulling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The highlighted area in your post is the key once again. I love hearing this!!!
> 
> 
> As for the park thing, I got through that stage with mine. Now, I let them out of the car and they walk with me in a heel... all three....not on a lead at all.........right along the path and up to the gate. They know if they are not good, we don't go in.
Click to expand...

=====================

Then you must really adore my methods. They are only about consistency and repetition. ;D


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