# Growling over raw bones



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

My 6 month old puppy Mac is great when it comes to his food and chews. I can put his bowl or chew in front of him and he won't touch it until I say. I can even leave the room and he will wait until I say okay. My neighbour is a butcher and so Mac benefits from having raw marrow bones on a regular basis. Last night though I tried to take it off of him and he ran out of the room and into the dinning room and if I approached he would just go around the table so I couldn't get to him. I always exchange for something and never snatch it. I didn't chase him and was trying to get him to come out with a fish treat which didn't work. Finally after ten minutes he came into the livingroom and so I again asked him to leave it. He growled deep and proper as I approached and the hair on his back stood up. After a 10 min stand off he finally dropped the bone but then stood over it and I could tell from his posture that if was to try and pick it up he would go for me! I waited it out a further 10 mins and he took the fish cube and then I picked up the bone. Has anyone else had this happen? Should I stop giving him raw bones?? Just to clarify I do correct him and nip things like this in the bud but I took a more patient approach with this as I don't think telling him off would have got him out of this zone. Any advise.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

No bones until he learns to give them up on command. Obviously bones are a high value item so the dog must learn to share or give it up. Otherwise this has potential to escalate and may end up biting to protect his possessions.
\

If the dog growls loud and threatens or even bites; one method I learned is to have 2 collars on the dog. One securely tied to a post or tree the other (preferably a British-style slip lead or a prong collar) you pull on the lead until he gives up the high value item while you order the dog to "drop". The dog must drop the item on command without any fuss. At that point reward.


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## VizslaNewbies (Jun 10, 2011)

bump - would like to know about this as well. havent introduced dax to bones yet, but just in case it happens i too would like to know how to handle the kiddo appropriately if i end up being in the same position


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

No need to worry unless Dax is fully grown and seriously unsocialized. 
Nylabone instead.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

The thing I think about in situations like this, is how would my dog react to a child touching a bone around her.
You will not get the results you want by avoiding bones. This is the time to teach it, as they are more easily trained, and less less threatening as puppy's.

It is impossible to teach without bones because nothing else is as valuable to a dog.

Most people shy away from assertive manoeuvres and that is understandable. You will need to figure out how to communicate to your dog that the bone is yours and that he can have it for as long as you say, and no longer.
Avoidance is not training...

My dog growled at me once. I put her on her side, and she never did it again. If she did, I would have upped the punishment. 
Vizsla's are sweet, and they are very lovable, but when you tap into their instincts, you have to realize that the strong survive. When they growl and you back off, they win. Each time that happens you empower their growl.


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

Just an update to this post. Mac is now fine with bones. 
I never did the whole put him on his side thing as we tried this as a young pup and his high play drive meant that all it did was get him more excited, and before anyone says it we did give it a fair shake. 
What worked for us was to wait him out. Once we gave the drop command he would stop what he was doing but not give it up. So I started to introduce the command in play. Once he was excited I would keep my nice voice and say give me. At first he resisted but over time he knows that if I say give me in a nice voice it means he gets it back if he drops it. This has worked great.


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## Suliko (Sep 17, 2011)

I think the important part is to correct the dog right there on the spot! We started giving raw bones to our V. Sophie around 9 months or so. The first time she growled – a very quiet but definite growl – I was very surprised. In fact, so surprised that I didn’t even correct her! It was more like – what the **** was that?? Naah, that can’t be true! Or was it??  She had NEVER ever guarded her resources, never growled. That was definitely something new. Next time she was chewing on a raw bone, I approached her again, and she did the same quiet growl. I took her by the nape of the neck right then and there with a firm “ah ahhh” (we don’t use the word “NO”), and she surrendered the bone and went into submissive position. Never again did she growl again. Actually, every time I approach her while she’s chewing on the bone, she surrenders the bone to me even before I get to her. I pick it up, look at it, “smell” it and give it right back while she’s calmly sitting and observing me. I do this almost every time she has a raw bone. 
Good luck and make sure you send a clear message that you’re the “bone keeper”! 8)


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Hey, this pinning business has to stop... try and roll a fully grown Husky not to mention a GSD and you'll quickly get the point.

This is the only real way we can alpha roll a dog:
http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/proper-way-to-do-alpha-roll.html

and as far as Caesar Millan is concerned:
http://community.sessionswithcesar.com/forums/t/29849.aspx

and this is to better understand pack behavior and dominance:
http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm


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## Vizsla Baby (Nov 4, 2011)

I had a friend whose puppy died mysteriously. The vet said it was because he was given raw bones, which are very bad for pups.

I have several other people I know who told me that bones gave their dogs problems - internal bleeding.

Please be very careful with them. And NEVER any chicken bones - they splinter.

In fact, you should check with your vet & see what they say about bones for puppies. I don't give them to my dogs - that way there is no chance of a problem cropping up.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

datacan said:


> Hey, this pinning business has to stop... try and roll a fully grown Husky not to mention a GSD and you'll quickly get the point.
> 
> This is the only real way we can alpha roll a dog:
> http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/proper-way-to-do-alpha-roll.html
> ...


Just like the tug video you sent me, that first article is describing something I simply do not do. I love my dog, and do not ever want to hurt her. Body-slamming is not part of my 'alpha-roll'.
If you're not comfortable with this technique, that is fine. I always say it is not for everyone. It takes an attitude and calmness that I had to learn. It did not come naturally. It was taught to us by a dog trainer that showed us results instantly. There are many ways to skin a cat and everyone has to choose what works for them.

If you think the size or breed of dog matters, then you've missed the point of the exercise.
It is not about muscling a dog down into some kind of torturing submission. It is a way of communicating that they need to calm down. 
They need to calm down because you are telling them to, and you mean business, not harm. It takes a firm hand, but a calm firm hand. 

I don't get paid to get bitten by dogs, so this is not something I run around town trying out. 
Although, it is most definitely something I will use to train my puppies in the future and something I will use on Mischa when she needs a reminder of what "that's enough" means.

I am not trying to convince you, or anyone else that they should do this. 
I am not ashamed, instead proud that I am capable of it. 
The reason for me going into so much detail is because I was insulted by your insinuation that what I am doing is damaging my dog. I do it for the well being of our home, not to feel tough.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Sorry, my post was direct and I apologize for that but not for the content. Technicality my post is off topic. *It can be moderated. But since you wrote on a public forum I felt compelled to post my view as well.
My guess is you didn't read the first article, just looked at the picture, eh?
And as far as the tug vid, I regret sending you that link. Sorry, won't happen again. 

Stupid me, I did roll, not body slam, similar to the Dog Whisperer show. The dog and the cat and didn't give up until they submitted. That's why I think it is hard, a little pointless and to some degree dangerous and searched the net for evidence to support that.
And after I wiped the sweat off I was thinking I can save the hassle and just teach the dog to roll over, roll on it's side, play dead. Same result. I control the resources that makes me the one in charge. * *The cat was way harder.

What is the right way to alpha roll, anyway? Lay the dog on it's side and wrestle with it until it submits? It gets easier every time, isn't it. Dog learns not to fight it. It becomes a conditioned behavior negatively reinforced until the dog cooperates. Now, I'm not against negative reinforcement but there are easier ways to calm a dog. 

I found hugging the dog and stroking it's side calms them and is also a rewarding experience. I think there was someone who pointed out it's called t-touch ?? not sure if I spelled it right.

Julius

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

To this topic: Growling over raw bones 
http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

As some will know, I carry a far less physical and more subtle approach to training a Vizsla. An approach that is shared across a large number of the Vizsla breeders here in Oz. As everyone is entitled to their opinion, please accept mine, without reading it as criticism of anyone else opinion.

I am not of the belief that physical force is required to train a Vizsla and am also of the opinion that it is potentially detrimental to the mental well being of the animal. If you are truly the pack leader, physical correction is never required. The most physical I have been with my dogs, is to gently place the tip of my finger on their bum if they didn't sit upon command. This I think I had to do for a couple of months on the odd occasion when I first got them and haven't had to do it since. My dogs know how it works, who is the controller of resources and therefore who to listen to first and foremost. 

Please, please, please research it and be sure that physical correction is the path you wish to adopt with your Vizsla before you do it. I have concerns for inexperienced owners attempting to use these methods on a Vizsla. You are treading a fine line towards "breaking" your dog! 

Vizslas are smart. They can tell by your voice what you want, if you're happy with there behaviour or not. If you are resorting to physical force, then you have lost control and THEY WILL KNOW IT. 

Think about it as a relationship. Would you physically impose yourself like that in a relationship? Not if you wanted it to be a trusting one. Physical correction in my opinion is the weak and out of control pack leaders approach and your dogs will start to lose trust and respect.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Datacan,
I implore you to hug your dog the first time you give him a bone and he growls to protect it.

Your method is avoidance, mine is direct. 
You give terrible advice telling people it's fine, it's normal. You may have gotten lucky with a dog that doesn't try to act out, but it sounds to me like you simply stay away from anything that might make a dog angry. I choose to face those issues head on and have the happiest dog I've ever seen, because of it. She knows She doesn't have to fight and can concentrate on enjoying life as a submissive dog.

I'm not asking for an apology. Every post I make is direct.
I have no issue with you voicing your opinion. What bothers me, is that because you were incapable of completing an exercise, you blurt out that everyone must do it like you tried and failed, and is simply abusing their dog.

Plain and simple, that is not the case.

And yes, I read the article. Don't insult my intelligence. 
Articles/videos you post contradict your own views. You preach on about how puppies are incapable of any and all aggressive behaviour. Do you think you may have been mistaken?


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Ozkar said:


> Please, please, please research it and be sure that physical correction is the path you wish to adopt with your Vizsla before you do it. I have concerns for inexperienced owners attempting to use these methods on a Vizsla. You are treading a fine line towards "breaking" your dog!


This I agree with. Perhaps I should avoid giving my method as advise, as it not something everyone is able to do successfully.
I have just as much concern for owners who think everything will sort itself out. 

My dog has been bitten by an aggressive dog. It isn't fair that she had to suffer because a human doesn't know how to show leadership to a dog. Such is life though, and all I can do is continue to raise a well balanced dog and hope that she picks up on bad dogs sooner than she did the day she was bitten.


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

Please can I throw out a post that I hope will bring some peace here.
I understand the firm correction and physical corrections that are used. I also understand that every dog is different. As stated my puppy Mac will never understand the physical touch method and so I use his mind to get him to submit to me. This has worked for him but I am sure for other dogs this would never work. To my 7 month old puppy anything physical results in more excitement. An example of this is that if I step on his foot on accident he will yelp but then jump up and down to play with me. The best thing I can do with him when he is being bad is simply stop snap my finger and stand over him and he will submitt everytime and I can take the bone off him make him lay down or what ever else I wish. With Mac touch=excitement so I don't use it, but I follow through everytime and he gets the message everytime. Mac has never bitten me or any dog. He is very playful not aggressive I think in my first post I was just concerned as it was the first time he has guarded. He doesn't anymore. All I have to say is 'that is mine' and he drops it. Dogs are so different in how they act with different personalities but also how they learn. Some will learn by touch others by mental challenge and this varies on each lesson. You are both right in what you are doing as long as the dog is happy and understands the boundaries.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Thank you for your insightful post, born36.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

I got Got lucky? I know don't think so. I had the privilege of picking the stubborn one in the pack. Sam will be 10 months still intact and will stay so.

And you keep preaching about alpha rolls like they mean something. Waste of time. 

And just for the record I can give Sam raw, meaty bones. Just choose not to for safety and sanitary reasons.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

except from "The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory"

"...For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?" 
Melissa Alexander
mca @ clickersolutions.com

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/12/history-and-misconceptions-of-dominance.html

RBD


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

thanks guys, I'm gonna be up all night now! 











have a good weekend with your dogs everyone! ;D


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Dennis,

Cute cartoon. What did we do before the internet? I guess we just disagreed with our neighbors. Now we can have different opinions in 60 countries around the world. Love it.

P.S. I have placed my body over Bailey many times over the last few years just to remind him where he ranks. But like you, I know my dog and he knows me and he also knows that I would NEVER hurt him.

Have a great weekend!

RBD


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