# Sibling Rivalry?



## sequoia33 (Feb 7, 2012)

First of all, I have been reviewing this very informative site in researching this amazing breed to finally preparing to bring home our new puppy, Sequoia. We picked up Sequoia and her sister, Alli, last weekend. The drive down from the breeders (8 1/2 hours) went very well. They both slept for most of the drive. Alli went home to my sister and her three boys. Sequoia came to our home and were welcomed by two mature Italian Greyhounds. The three of them have gotten along surprisingly well. This weekend, we took Sequoia to "play" with her sister Alli and here is where things got interesting.

Initially, the two greeted each other outside (front of the house) to wagging tails and sniffing. All was well until we released them to the backyard. They played very rough, snapping at each other, bitting, jumping on top of one another, etc. This went on and on. They were both relentless. At first we thought this was normal since, when we picked them up, they were playing quite aggressively as well. But the "playing" got more and more aggressive. Alli who is smaller than Sequoia seemed to be the aggressor. Sequoia has not remotely exhibited this behaviour at home with the IGs or with other dogs she has encountered. Neither has Alli. Is this as simple as Alli trying to protect her territory, sibling rivalry or something else? Should we let them continue with the rough play? When we returned home, Sequoia was back to her normal sweet self.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Sequoia33,
Don't know how old the pups are but my guess is they are teaching other "hunting skills." Hunting dogs have inate skills in taking down game and go about practicing with their littermates as they grow. They learn by doing. The chances of them hurting each other is very slight. The below is part of an article if learning turns into something more when they are older.

_Section: Sibling Rivalry

Another common form of dominance-related inter-dog aggression is known as sibling rivalry. Sibling rivalry refers to situations in which two or more dogs in the same household fight. The fights may start out as snarling and growling over space or other resources. If left unchecked, serious fighting can ensue resulting in injury or even death. 

Fighting occurs because the dogs have not established a stable dominance hierarchy. Dogs have no sense of equality, so one must always be the leader. This is often a difficult concept for owners to grasp. They prefer to treat their dogs as equals and work to even out disputes. But well-meaning intervention only serves to fuel continued fighting between the dogs. Fights occur between dogs of near equal dominance and rarely, if ever, between a very dominant dog and a submissive dog because the latter readily defers. There are two varieties of sibling rivalry that are commonly seen. 

• Type 1. This is a simple dominance struggle between two dogs, siblings or not, that live in the same household. Confrontations often arise when one dog reaches social maturity (18 months to 3 years of age) and begins to challenge an older, more dominant dog's rank. Alternatively, confrontations may occur when an older dog becomes ill and begins to lose ground as the leader. Under these circumstances, a previously subordinate dog may begin to challenge his former leader and attempt to usurp his social position. This type of aggression will usually resolve in fairly short order (2-3 weeks) as long as people do not interfere with what is the course of nature. 

The posturing and displays are similar to those described above and fighting will end when one or other dog has successfully made his point and has assumed the leadership role. With emotionally well-balanced dogs, fights are usually not life threatening as posturing, inhibited bites, and vocalizations constitute the basis of the communicative displays. Occasionally aggressive interactions may span a month or more because both dogs are unwilling to concede to a subordinate status. In these situations, typically the dogs are of the same sex (female disputes tend to be more refractory and more likely to result in injury) and one or both dogs have recently reached social maturity. As dogs are inherently social and hierarchical animals, any breed may engage in sibling rivalry disputes. However, this problem is reported to occur more frequently in breeds selected for independent, feisty temperaments, such as terriers. Aggressive incidents are often restricted to specific circumstances, such as competition over space or resources.


• Type 2. The second and much more common type of sibling rivalry is what is referred to as alliance aggression. This unfortunate situation is man-made and occurs when humans interfere with dominance/deference struggles between dogs in the same household. The typical human reaction is to support the subordinate, which ensures that dominance is not established and fighting continues. By supporting the underdog, the owners increase the would-be subordinate dog's social status, and by chastising the more dominant dog they will effectively weaken his position. This ensures that near equal dominance status is maintained and the fighting will continue. These fights can be much more dangerous (resulting in severe injury) and persist for a considerable length of time. Typically, the dogs fight only in the presence of the owner and it is the owner's comings and goings that precipitate the violence._

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2012/02/inter-dog-dominance-aggression.html


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Sounds like typical sibling play to me! Riley and her sister Penny (Anne's pup) do what I like to call WWF smackdown moves on each other... haha. Vizslas have a very rough style of play and they usually reserve it for other Vizslas. Let them play and enjoy the long naps she takes afterward.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

If neither pup is yelping in pain, then leave them to it. It's normal. Sometimes I cringe watching mine as they literally hang off each others jowls and ears. But, it's just play to them.


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## sequoia33 (Feb 7, 2012)

The following is a clip of them playing. They are 9 1/2 weeks. The last 10 seconds is more indicative of the rough play. The end of the clip reminds me of Rocky III when Apollo and Rocky take a swing at each other and the image freezes. Thanks for all the replies.

http://youtu.be/9sAg5rmxLm4


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

They were being nice!!


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

sequoia33 said:


> The following is a clip of them playing. They are 9 1/2 weeks. The last 10 seconds is more indicative of the rough play. The end of the clip reminds me of Rocky III when Apollo and Rocky take a swing at each other and the image freezes. Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> http://youtu.be/9sAg5rmxLm4


Oh... my... gosh... I may just die from too much Vizsla puppy cuteness! ;D They are actually playing very gently with each other by Vizsla standards.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2012/02/vizsla-puppy-wwf-smackdown.html

Sequoia33, had to share that one with the redbirddog nation. Hope that's ok.

RBD


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## Suliko (Sep 17, 2011)

Oh my goodness, so jealous! They both are so cute! The play looked completely normal to me 

Wanted to show you a picture my Sophie playing with *pippa31*. Looks like they're pretty into it!


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lynnzuGoKn1r6dw1yo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1329510261&Signature=RVjHpzQFTk72Fu5sgCaPEFe%2F8bc%3D

If you follow the link, that's Riley with her sister pulling a WWF smack down move on her. 8)


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## Kaya (Jul 17, 2011)

So cute! Even the last 10 seconds just looks like normal playful Vizsla rough-housing. 

We were told that playing rough with siblings was actually good thing, as pups that get to play together more end up learning bite-inhibition more quickly, by teaching each other what hurts and what doesn't. If nobody's tail is down and they keep going back for more, then they are probably both still having fun. I remember reading that if one gets overly excited and nips too hard (which may happen, but is part of the learning experience), the other will let them know by yelping and walking away, thus ending the game, i.e., the worst punishment for a V puppy -- losing a playmate!

Enjoy the cuteness and be confident knowing that you probably can't get a more perfectly matched wrestling partner than a litter mate, in terms of size, development, and temperament. Let them burn off energy and become even better dogs in the long run, by learning bite-inhibition on each other (rather than on human arms, like my pup did! yowch!).


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## Darci11 (Nov 22, 2011)

Thats tame compared to my 2 pups. Perfectly normal.


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## laurita (Jun 12, 2011)

they look like they are having a complete ball together! So stinkin cute!!! Dogs can get growly and show teeth as part of their play, too. I tend to make sure that no dog is pinned for too long, that nobody is taking advantage of the other (squealing and the other not backing off), no hackles up, that tails aren't between the legs. If all that is ok, I say let them wear each other out!


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## Kobi (Oct 26, 2010)

Nothing to be alarmed about. In fact, my 18 month old Vizsla takes more abuse than that from my girlfriend's 5 month old Springer Spaniel mix on a regular basis. He doesn't even yelp. It's definitely alarming if you are not used to it, but what you posted in the video is just two puppies having a good time.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Kobi said:


> Nothing to be alarmed about. In fact, my 18 month old Vizsla takes more abuse than that from my girlfriend's 5 month old Springer Spaniel mix on a regular basis. He doesn't even yelp. It's definitely alarming if you are not used to it, but what you posted in the video is just two puppies having a good time.


Shackles and tails tucked are not definitive signs. Zsa Zsa does this while playing.


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## Lindsey1420 (Jan 28, 2012)

Wathcing that makes me want to go get another V so Jack can play too! My brother has a grant dane and Jack just gets right in there. So funny because Jack is like the size of the GD head!! Jack is only 6 mos.


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## Ruin (Nov 9, 2011)

Two things up front:

A) Pups like Sequoia are the reason I even considered the idea of a female V. She would make one heck of a daddy's girl! Too freaking cute!

B) I have not ready any other post but the OP.


Anyway...

My wife and I got two pups within a day of each other. At the time they were a 7 week V and a 9 week pocket Beagle. Truly babies. Now they are 13 and 15 weeks. The sibling rivalry is STRONG.

There's clear competition for hierarchy. Beagles being more assertive, vocal, and the desire to lead... she usually wins. Malcolm follows, but not without some jealousy issues. It makes him pretty vocal too. When around larger and/or older dogs there's clear competition for pack leader.

When it comes to our two, I make a point of asserting my dominance over them both. Chasing each other and barking over a toy? Nope. Daddy's toy now. It's mine until I decide to give it back. Kids not playing nice? Ok then, time for "time-out" Malcolm in the bathroom and Kaylee in the kitchen for about five minutes. My wife asserts herself when I'm gone. Since I work from home we decided early on I would take the Alpha role on since I'm around more often. 

We try to let them sort each other out. It's tough, they get noisy, and sometimes it sounds painful... but it seems to be a natural pack adjustment. I wouldn't worry too much.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

I'm just going to reiterate what everyone else said. The puppies are adorable and they are engaged in perfectly normal puppy play, as far as I can tell.

Oso is our first dog we've gotten as adults and we had him in "puppy playtime" with a trainer from 10 weeks to 5 months. I remember how aggressive the play looked when we first started, now I can easily tell the difference. 

They are chasing each other and wrestling. It looked like wrestling at the end. At puppy playtime, the puppies very commonly bit each other's ears, tails and even legs. In my mind, yelping is not bad as long as the other puppy backs off. As others said this is how they learn bite inhibition. If the other dog doesn't back off, I think it's our job to teach them to by giving them a time out. When dogs play nicely with each other they take turns submitting. 

If a dog is playing too aggressively and not responding to others signals, it can be good to both do time-outs and redirect them to tug-a-war. I really don't think this is your issue though. They look like they are nicely playing and having a lot of fun.

Enjoy your puppy, they grow up so ridiculously fast.

- FS


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

http://youtu.be/KT1vC5Kj4MM

If interested, here is a link for two teenage vizslas playing for comparison sake. I think they play very nicely together. This is Oso with another vizsla at the park that day. Just skip to 0:46 and after that it's all the V's, before that there is another very nice doggy there. 

Oso is the one with the harness.


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