# Power-steering for dogs



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Prong collar = power-steering for hard dogs (or any dog for that matter), IMO.

BTW, small size prongs offer a harsher correction than larger size so bigger dog, large size prongs are not the answer. Some shy away from prongs but in many cases they are the ones with misbehaving dogs who end up paying lots $$$ for therapy sessions.
Proper way to adjust the collars is to be able to slip one finger under one of the prongs. Leash can be clipped to the live link or dead ring or both for max control.

I have been looking at replacement options for our Sam's training collar (which is large size and is a hand-me-down from our previous dog).
The Herm Sprengers are the leading quality ones. I have been eying the Neck-Tech line for quite some time:
http://search.store.yahoo.net/gundo...dog&query=herm sprenger&submit.x=0&submit.y=0

Today, I found something else that looks nicer and friendlier but don't know if they last like the Herms:
http://www.lolalimited.net/Secretprong.html


----------



## Kobi (Oct 26, 2010)

I just got a $9.99 Remington collar... cheap and it works great. Doesn't look as fancy as those though, and I think that Herm Sprenger one looks like it might be more effective. Kobi isn't a fan of his prong collar but he wears it every time we go for a run, and it really makes a difference.


----------



## Crazy Kian (Aug 10, 2009)

We have a prong collar, not sure what brand though. It works very well.


----------



## tracker (Jun 27, 2011)

I am assuming the prong collar really helps if they are pulling while on leash? I was thinking about one, but i bought the "choker" instead and have not used it because I have read that the "choke" collar can cause lasting damage. I'm not sure if this is true, but my guy pulls on the leash quite a bit and am debating a prong collar.


----------



## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

The prong collar looks terrible, but is quite a bit easier on the dogs throat than a choke collar, or even a flat collar if they're choking themselves on it.
The choke chain has no "stop" so it just gets tighter and tighter around the dogs neck. The prong collar works like a martingale but it pinches their skin to get them to stop pulling.

I like the english slip lead best, but it is a daily exercise in heel training.

We got our prong collar at Petsmart for ~$20. It's good quality, and would no doubt last forever.


I've been looking into an e-collar these days to get Mischa to stop eating poop, and catching parasites... 
Our field trainer used an e-collar on her for heel training, and so it might be benificial for both of those. 
I've been working deligently on 'leave it' and 'heel' each day for the past 2 weeks. My success has been mediocre. I'd like a new tool to help me.


Any thoughts on this one?:
http://www.gundogsupply.com/sportdog-field-trainer-sd-400.html

The range is only a 1/4 mile, but she rarely gets much more than 40-50' from me anyway. 
It got really great reviews and the price is reasonable.


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Most know my thoughts on these things. I believe there are better ways with more lasting and beneficial effects. Please research them carefully before embarking on that route.


----------



## SteelCityDozer (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm good with prong collars if your properly trained on use ie how to properly correct. Too light or no correction isn't teaching the dog but you can also get too rough with them. And only correct after your sure the dog understands the command. 

All that said we have a prong collar from tractor supply which I thought was decent. But after several weeks you could tell it was rubbing dozers skin wrong. Invested in herm sprenger and no more "marks" so def worth it. Short coated dogs are more sensitive to the prongs so I size up. Their lack of hair/fur doesnt guard against small prongs enough.


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Prongs are not choking or damaging the trachea or thyroid glands!
My worst nightmare was when we took Sammy on a trip to Niagara Falls and the he lunged so hard at everyone, I got shocked and frankly never expected a 6 month old to have so much power. The flimsy flat collar he was wearing was a disaster. He was gasping for air, chocking himself, pulling and lunging. 
It was such a shocking surprise, I had no countermeasures always thinking Vizsla dogs are so soft and if I corrected him on a flat collar, I could have damaged his neck. It was a short trip, we drove back quickly. My hands were shaking, stunned, out of energy. 

From that day it was prongs for Sammy. Prongs worked miracles for him and I thought I had a hard dog before. Children were crossing the street when I walked my GSD. 
I have worked with Sam pretty intensely before that trip. He was heeling (almost) and I even waking him on a harness (the cheap Petsmart one) so there was lots of opportunity to lunge and pull, but he didn't. Not sure what the Falls does to him but he turned into Cujo every time. But not with the prongs 

++++++++++

The SD 400 is not a 1/4 mile range and doesn't have a beeper. The only way it will work a 1/4 mile is if you stand on a hill with not even a grass blade in between the receiver and transmitter. The antenna is crap and I take mine off to save space and so it doesn't look like I have an erection when it's in my pocket.
I mulled it over and settled on the SD 1250. It's only a couple of steps higher and the dummies only put a beeper on this model. I only have to use the beeper in familiar territories. Outside, when he is wired I can dial it up to 5 and he just glances at me..."is that all you got, I'll finish here and come to you later after I finish" ??? I usually give up dialing higher than 5 and wait or hoof it in his direction.
In any case it has to be introduced carefully otherwise it associates strange things with the stimm. The stimm is not as natural to them as the prongs are and have to associate it as an extension of the leash. That's why I like the beeper first and stim second if he ignores.
I also hate the continuous stimm mode and just toggle in 1 second intervals. The nick button is also not needed. The stupid thing is programed so it will quit after 8 sec. If the dog didn't accomplish the task under continuous stimm the handler suddenly has no control and has to start over again (this applies to low level stimm mostly).

The SD 800 + a separate beeper is not a bad deal but that's the same as upgrading to the SD 1250, IMO. The location beeper is a little louder but the dog will not hear it if he's in drive mode anyway, it must be stimmed anyway. Those who say only beeps are needed for their dog, have not experienced the dog in real pray drive mode yet.

Just my thoughts, hope it helps.

P.S. 
Many respects to U Ozkar, you're a real dog whisperer. I have to wrestle my way (not quite) but never yell at him in anger, only praise.


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Dog whisperer hey Datacan   I wish. No, unfortunately, I can't talk to the animals. It's just have a longer term thought process with my dogs. They are going to live to potentially 15, maybe more if I am lucky. That's a long time to spend with anyone. So, I figure, what could be learnt in a month with a prong, might take me 6. I don't care, I will happily spend the 6 and know I have a dog who's master has never subjected it to discomfort. I want my dogs to do things for me because they want to. Not because they get rewarded, not because of lots of praise, not because they get a shock or prick if they don't, but just cause they want to. Hence, I train with very soft methods which may potentially take longer. It's a choice I make not for any other reason than I think very highly of animals, high enough to not do things to them which I wouldn't want done to me and I find them really uncomfortable  

I am not criticising anyone who does, please don't misinterpret my comments. Each to their own, I was just offering an alternative thought line for those who are reading this thread.


----------



## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

datacan said:


> The SD 400 is not a 1/4 mile range and doesn't have a beeper. The only way it will work a 1/4 mile is if you stand on a hill with not even a grass blade in between the receiver and transmitter. The antenna is crap and I take mine off to save space and so it doesn't look like I have an erection when it's in my pocket.
> I mulled it over and settled on the SD 1250. It's only a couple of steps higher and the dummies only put a beeper on this model. I only have to use the beeper in familiar territories. Outside, when he is wired I can dial it up to 5 and he just glances at me..."is that all you got, I'll finish here and come to you later after I finish" ??? I usually give up dialing higher than 5 and wait or hoof it in his direction.
> In any case it has to be introduced carefully otherwise it associates strange things with the stimm. The stimm is not as natural to them as the prongs are and have to associate it as an extension of the leash. That's why I like the beeper first and stim second if he ignores.
> I also hate the continuous stimm mode and just toggle in 1 second intervals. The nick button is also not needed. The stupid thing is programed so it will quit after 8 sec. If the dog didn't accomplish the task under continuous stimm the handler suddenly has no control and has to start over again (this applies to low level stimm mostly).
> ...


Did you buy the 400 first and test it out?
I've read really good reviews for it on a few different sites, and it says that it has the tone feature. 
I read that the beeper is for you to hear your dog in deep cover. If that's the case, I don't need that. 

The other one I was looking at is the SD-1825. It sounds like a great e-collar, but it's nearly double the price of the 400. It has a 1 mile range, but that just isn't necessary for me.


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Tried the 400s, the 800 and bought the 1200 series because because of the charge time and more refined stim levels. 
The 400s was just a little too brutal for my V. But OK for a my friend's lab. 

Some dogs can take a wider range of stim and shake it off but the Vizsla will remember and will try and anticipate. That could lead to so really strange behavior. Totally counterproductive, IMO. 

Have another friend with a 5 year old GSP he had numerous remote collars most by dogtra and said those were not so good, at least the earlier models. The stim levels were not consistent. Our Vizsla is more sensitive than his GSP. 

The 1825 is an awesome investment. The more refined stim levels should be enough convincing. 
Charge time for the 400 & 800 is around 12 hours whereas the 1200 & 1800 series is about 2 hr or less.


----------



## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but has anyone tried a martingale collar? We are determined not to use prongs for Ri. She pulled in the opposite direction so hard the other day that she slipped her collar. I was hoping maybe a martingale would give us better control.


----------



## Crazy Kian (Aug 10, 2009)

Yes, we have been thru a flat collar, halti (that thing that goes over their snout), choke chain (hated it), martingale (was okay for a while then he got used to it). Now we are on a prong. He walks brilliantly with it on. 
Yes, there have been a few corrections at the beginning but he is a quick learner.


----------



## jjohnson (Nov 9, 2011)

We use a harness with a front clip when we walk Gus on the leash. It was recommended by our trainer/behaviorist, and other trainers I have talked to. It works wonders! Gus does not pull on the leash when we have that on. Just make sure the leash attaches on the chest area; if it attaches on the back, the opposite will happen and your dog will think he's a sled dog!

We also tried one of the ones with the strap that goes across the nose, but he just couldn't get used to having something on his face.


----------



## Kobi (Oct 26, 2010)

I have a Martingale I've never tried. Pretty sure it's too big. It's in the pile of "Stuff I bought for my dog that I don't need". 

Mischa - look at the Dogtra iQ. Great adjustable sensitivity, 400 yard range, waterproof, and has a vibrate feature. I call it Kobi's pager because when I hit the vibrate he comes RUNNING. The vibrate functions as the "come" command and the shocker is the "hey stupid, stop that" button. I'd definitely recommend that collar.


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Same as Kian, we did the halti, and martingale but nothing as effective as the prongs. Problem is the choke chain. Harness works when biking fast, otherwise pray there are no squirrels, dogs and rabbits to smell. 
Oh, the harness works with the e-collar at the same time.

Like I said, prongs save money and don't hurt the dog, otherwise it's therapy lessons. Basic obedience is not that basic with a flat collar but with the prongs, I can teach him other things and leave the treats at home.
Sad thing, we met a giant poodle who desperately wanted to meet Sam but when we got close he snapped and protected the treats the owner carried in the pants pocket. I saw him trying to chew through the pants, sad. The owner explained his daughter is a vet ??? and she was advising how to train. Sad, very sad.


----------



## jjohnson (Nov 9, 2011)

I don't see the problem with using treats. For a very shy, sensitve dog like mine, using treats and a harness works fine and has been reccomended by our trainers. I'd rather rely on treats to get my dog to obey me than rely on pinching or shocking him. And he always comes when I call when he knows I've got a pocket full of chicken!

But we are from "hippy" Seattle where shocking or poking your dog is heavily frowned upon by most people so I may be biased.


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Oops, I was going to sign out... That's precisely the reason I wanted to hide the prongs. I call it the tree-hugger's approach - using treats but the one problem is they grow up and need better treats.


----------



## jjohnson (Nov 9, 2011)

I actually saw one trainer who used that spray cheese stuff as a treat...just sprayed it directly into the dogs mouth! It looked fun, although I would probably gain about 5 pounds form spraying into my mouth too


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

JJ, no prongs before they are at least 6 months old  

this used to be Sam at 8 weeks


----------



## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

datacan said:


> Tried the 400s, the 800 and bought the 1200 series because because of the charge time and more refined stim levels.
> The 400s was just a little too brutal for my V. But OK for a my friend's lab.


The S stands for stubborn 
I went with the standard 400 model. She is stubborn, but not when it comes to pain. Our trainer had great results on a really low setting, and if the collar doesn't work, well, it is clearly my fault. I'm not big on pain as training, but I can admit that I need help with this issue.
I'm not looking for a big ZAP, just a clear and consistent "No". Like I said, it is rare for her to get past 50' from us, and her recall is very good. We just need some help getting her to stop eating poop, as she is going to catch something really bad one day. She doesn't go after garbage, or paper, or clothing... just loves the poop! 
If we can use it to help with loose-leash walking too, that will be a bonus.


Kobi: I looked into the IQ. It sounds pretty similar to the SD 400, but the 400 cost $20 less. It has the same features, range and high rating. Thanks though.



Sorry for the thread jack here, but do you guys have any tips or links to introducing the e-collar, and training techniques?
I plan on putting it on and not touching the remote for a few days so she doesn't get any assosiation of pain to the collar at all.


----------



## Kobi (Oct 26, 2010)

Does the SD collar have a vibrate feature? IMO, that is worth the extra $20, as it's non-painful.

That said, I wouldn't say a shock collar on low stimulation levels is painful. That's like saying sticking your tongue to a 9v battery is painful. Is it strange? Yes. Is it unpleasant? Possibly, depending on how long you do it. Now sticking your tongue on 10 9v batteries linked together WOULD be painful. I know that I can't even feel the dogtra iQ below 20.

You don't NEED the vibrate feature, but I would certainly pay an extra $20 for it.

One other thing I noticed (that may or may not matter) - the SportDog transmitter is waterproof, the Dogtra iQ transmitter is water *resistant*, and I don't think you'd want to risk submerging it.


----------



## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Being waterproof is what sold me on the the 400.
It has a tone instead of vibrate which I'm trying to decide whether to use it for sit at a distance, or recall.


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

They hear the tone and respond to it very well inside the house and fenced yard. Outside, they will hear it but may ignore it if they are in heightened drive mode.

http://www.sportdog.com/Gear/E-Collars/FieldTrainer.aspx 

U can use the compare feature on their site. I think it will say somewhere that the 400 series is for harder dogs, not for a V, IMO.

Oh, the 400S is for stubborn dogs (this is the one I tried) but the 400 is for mild dogs, so it's all good. Perhaps the battery charging time makes a difference 12hr?


OOPS have to add more: From what I understand the stimmulation is not a normal thing for them. There is a dvd in the box with the collar, I think. But leash pressure and low level stim simultaneously. The go into the kennel should be first command according to G. Hickox. So guiding on the leash first until they do it on command and than leash pressue + continuous stim on low until they accomplish the task. Then follows the come check-cord + stim, sit and the others. 
If introduced too early and without the check-cord, the dog may associate strange things with the stim. 
Main idea is, the dog has to learn that it controls the stim by accomplishing the task OR the stim can be turned off by accomplishing the task. That's why the kennel command should be first - according to George Hickox 

The poop eating or the NO is kind of independent so the dog can be stimmed without worries, just to get his attention away.

Good luck


----------



## tracker (Jun 27, 2011)

I have the tri-tronics g3 basic. It was about $250 from cabelas. Has b.oth the beep/vibrate function, as well as the stim. It has been throgh **** and back and is still ticking. I have Lui conditioned to the beep, then if he doesn't listen to that, then i use the stim on the second lowest setting. I tried it on myself and can barely feel it.


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Ive never used a prong collar but have had good results with a pinch collar training younger dogs. Pull to the side not back and change directions. I also have a dominate dog collar that I use if I'm taking my dog to a place that maybe stressful like the vets. The collar causes no pain but shuts off their oxygen. This is not a collar you use for the first time in a strange place. The dog first needs to learn at home. Pull and I can't breath, stand still and I can.


----------



## IagainstI (Apr 22, 2011)

Does anyone have experience with Newtrix?


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

IagainstI said:


> Does anyone have experience with Newtrix?


No but it looks the similar to the Gentle Leader. Tried the Gentle L. but had to return it when I read they could be dangerous if the dog bolts. It can twist the head and break the neck.
I do see some other measures on the Newtrix, tough but essentially the same idea. In any case the strap across the nose will wear some of the hairs off. The Gentle L. did that, not to mention it our dog hated it.


----------

