# Devastated



## Buckley (Jan 8, 2013)

Hi there. My husband and I have looked at this forum a million times, but never decided to post anything until now. We just got back from the vet, and found out that our one year old Buckley has hip displaysia, his knee joints are severely malformed, and both of his ACL's are either deformed and/or non-functioning (not due to any movement he did--he was just born that way). 

The vet said that there is very small chance that there might be some sort of surgical option to improve his knees, but do to the malformation of his joints it was unlikely. She said that no matter what, he would never lead a "normal" life, and that we should concentrate on pain management.

Has anyone else ever dealt with this? We are so torn up about this, and any experiences you could share would be greatly appreciated.


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## maplevizsla (Oct 26, 2012)

No experience with your dogs conditions, so sorry to hear about it :-(

Did your dog not display any signs of possible problems from puppyhood until your appointment? Did the breeder or you notice any odd gaiting, walking, running? To have this many issues I don't understand how none of this was caught earlier and it took a year to figure out....I would be notifying your breeder as well, the dam and sire should not produce any more litters with these sort of problems being thrown out into the Vizsla gene pool.

Do you have any physiotherapy option nearby you such as perhaps laser treatments, hydrotherapy pool, acupuncture, chinese medicine to help alleviate his pain?


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## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

My heart goes out to you and your husband! Hopefully the millions of licks your little guy will give you will help you through this  as I'm sure his heart is right there with you guys.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

A two legged V is still twice any other dog. Even if he needs wheels, he will just want wheels with you. You love him, he adores you. So what if you have to deal with dodgy knees, at least you will do it together. 

First, find the best knee/hip surgeon in the country and go from there. I wish you 100% success and strength.


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## Buckley (Jan 8, 2013)

Thank you so much for your condolences--it really means a lot to us.

@Maplevizsla, Buckley did have signs before this, and he took many-a-trip to the vet leading up to this. He was diagnosed with panosteitis about three months ago, and we thought he would just grow out of what seemed like occasional joint pain (we both think that this vet should have noticed all these problems at that time. However, he wasn't very thorough, lost our trust, and then we found a much better vet). Aside from not seeming to want to run 10+miles a day that I hear adult V's want to run, and maybe tiring out a little sooner than we expected at the dog park, he didn't exhibit any classic signs of hip displaysia or ACL problems (no serious limping, bunny hopping). 

Although we did a bunch of reasearch about V's, we didn't research enough about what to look for in a breeder. We realize now that our breeder was sub-par, and was probably only doing it for the money. We just e-mailed her and let her know, but it is the type of situation where I doubt she would stop breeding because of this. 

As for physiotherapy options--our vet has given us referrals to check into various trusted practitioners of all those things you listed. 

While we are mad at this breeder, and we are incredibly saddened by this news, we both would not give up this past year for anything--as our very first dog together, he has become a integral member of our little family.


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## CrazyCash (Jul 12, 2012)

So sorry to hear about your boy! That's such a sad / tough situation. I don't have any first hand experience with this type of situation, but I have a friend that has a 4 year old German Shepard with severe hip displaysia. Her dog was a trained police dog that went to work with her husband every day. The dog is now retired and they are managing her pain (they haven't done any surgery). She's doing great and gets along fine. Her life has changed drastically, she used to be a true working dog, but now lives the life of a retiree and she's adapted really well.

Dogs are amazingly adaptable - my guy Cash had a leg amputated and he's one of the happiest dogs I've ever had. True, he has a few limitations, but he lives a very active, happy life. 

I'm sorry that you have to go through this, but once you get your boy on the right pain management, I bet that he'll have a great, happy life with you - even if he can't run 10 miles.


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

Sorry to hear about this. 

I hope that your family can reset how you do things and help your pup as much as possible.

Just a thought but it would be great for us to know what breeder you used. Also the names of the Sire and Dame if you know them as many new puppy owners come to this site. We can then help to educate others and perhaps prevent the breeding happening again.


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## Buckley (Jan 8, 2013)

Thanks--and of course. The breeder is Sandra Newman out of Blachly/Triangle Lake, Oregon. Sire is Limited Edition SR, and Dame is Loose Rendition SR. We e-mailed her last night to let her know, and we got a repulsive e-mail in response--the only thing it said was something like "please refer back to subsection d of the contract, which says we'll replace your defective puppy." No sorry, no response to our questions/concerns about the other pups in Buckley's litter, nothing... This was our first dog, and we didn't know what to look out for when finding a breeders--we just knew we were in love with V's, and particularly our little man. I don't really know what constitutes a puppy mill, but in hindsight, it was definitely a suspicious operation.


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## SkyyMax (Apr 5, 2012)

Buckley - I am so sorry to hear about your boy's diagnosis. 

I personally do not have any experience with this disease, but have a friend who has a Maltese with a severe hip displaysia (yes, the tiny fluffy dog). He is only 3 years old and could not walk more than 50 feet.
He had laser therapy for several months and now can go for a walk.

It is incredibly sad to hear another case of puppy mill no matter how big or small it is.....

Best wishes to Buckley!!!


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## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

So sorry to hear about Buckley!

Thanks for posting the breeder's name. I hadn't heard of this one.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

Hi Buckley, I'm so sorry to hear about your situation! I remember reading about a couple of Vs with Hip Dysplasia shortly after we got our Oso. I found a couple of members posts under a search for hip surgery and hip dysplasia. Use the links below (posted just in case helpful) or the search box in the upper right portion of the forums page. 

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,2096.msg14346.html#msg14346

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,4544.msg32627.html#msg32627

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,3965.0.html

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,4382.msg31343.html#msg31343

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,3455.msg24368.html#msg24368

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,5521.msg42015.html#msg42015


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

Just an idea but wondering if get a new section on the forum for recommended vs not recommended breeders. 

We have are getting more and more potential owners that it would be good for us to start to compile good breeders and alert people to poor breeders. 

What do the rest of you think? Who can do this?


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## Emily1970 (Apr 21, 2011)

As everyone knows, we have went thru this with our Riley. He was diagnosed with severe hip dysplasia at just 1 year of age. He underwent 2 surgeries in 2012 resulting in numerous plates and screws and wires and he is now our bionic boy. The surgeries are not easy. Very owner intensive as they will depend on your for everything for weeks afterwards. His was severe enough that if we had chosen to not have surgery and just done pain management, he would have already been crippled by now. It was expensive, but we didn't hesitate. We also have been the victim of a poor breeder as Riley has and has had numerous issues in his short life so far. But we wouldn't trade him for anything. Feel free to contact me any time.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> Just an idea but wondering if get a new section on the forum for recommended vs not recommended breeders.
> 
> We have are getting more and more potential owners that it would be good for us to start to compile good breeders and alert people to poor breeders.


Oh boy that would be tough. I think a link to this comparison would help 95% of potential Hungarian Pointer buyers. Not a perfect list but a good check list of what to look for in a quality breeder.

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/comparison.html

Go down the list and see if the breeder is mostly in the left or right column.

My .02. Sorry to hear about your boy's hips. Had a Springer once with bad dyspepsia. Very sad and so preventable. That is why you always get a pup whose sire and dame have had their hips x-rayed at 2 years old or older.

RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

born36 said:


> Just an idea but wondering if get a new section on the forum for recommended vs not recommended breeders.
> 
> We have are getting more and more potential owners that it would be good for us to start to compile good breeders and alert people to poor breeders.
> 
> What do the rest of you think? Who can do this?


I would be against a recommended breeder section.. 
To many people love a breeder when they have a new puppy.
You would have first time puppy owners posting how wonderful their puppy is and the breeders name. I believe its better to let the numerous Vizsla associations recommend preferred breeders.
It takes time to know if your puppy wil have all the qualites that a vizsla should. Second, you only know if they stand behind their words if something goes wrong.
I believe it would be better to have a heredity section. There you could post your dogs heredity problems and its bloodlines. Then how the breeder handled it.


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## maplevizsla (Oct 26, 2012)

I would refrain from any negative public opinion by anyone on a forum on certain individuals touting themselves as breeders - there are so many willing to sue you for slander etc. If you choose to warn another forum member, do so privately.....and even then be careful of what ill words you speak to that member - it may go back to the breeder!


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Buck welcome to the forum - check with your vet about the pup working in water - less stress on the joints - have a friend with a lab that hunted with us & now she only goes on waterfoul hunts - for ABBY this has become her normal life - or to say your pups life is what YOU make it and that will be come the norm - good luck - LoVe does not cure everthing but it helps !


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: Re: Devastated*



maplevizsla said:


> I would refrain from any negative public opinion by anyone on a forum on certain individuals touting themselves as breeders - there are so many willing to sue you for slander etc. If you choose to warn another forum member, do so privately.....and even then be careful of what ill words you speak to that member - it may go back to the breeder!


Wise words. However, if you simply list facts there are no issues.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Posting a heredity problem about your dog and its bloodlines would not be an opinion. It would be a fact based on veterinary test and the bloodlines are on its papers. The breeder also should have a contract that the buyer read and signed.
I am well aware that not every pup in a litter is created equal but data bases help to identify problems in a bloodline. Bringing those problems to light would help everyone, the breeder included.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Buckley said:


> Thanks--and of course. The breeder is Sandra Newman out of Blachly/Triangle Lake, Oregon. Sire is Limited Edition SR, and Dame is Loose Rendition SR. *We e-mailed her last night to let her know, and we got a repulsive e-mail in response--the only thing it said was something like "please refer back to subsection d of the contract, which says we'll replace your defective puppy."* No sorry, no response to our questions/concerns about the other pups in Buckley's litter, nothing... This was our first dog, and we didn't know what to look out for when finding a breeders--we just knew we were in love with V's, and particularly our little man. I don't really know what constitutes a puppy mill, but in hindsight, it was definitely a suspicious operation.


Not repulsive at all. Breeders have different viewpoint. They loose more puppies than you can imagine. Not all puppies are born alive and some don't stand a chance. 

Especially, if they were at it for a lifetime. Some breeders have been at it for 30-50 years. They had their share of heartache. Puppies come and go the most difficult decision is letting go an old dog. I had long conversations with Sam's breeder, she shared her viewpoint with me. Some things I cannot write about. Life is cruel and stressful and ironically, those who puppies who make it have such a strong life force inside them. 
Perhaps the breeder knew something was wrong with your pup but hoped it will correct itself. 

In conclusion please do not blame a long time breeder. Instead, look at your options and decide wisely.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

Our breeder has checked in many times with us to see how Oso is doing. Whenever we had a concern with health or training, he responded with concern and in length. 

I understand your viewpoint, Datacan, but I'd rather work with a breeder who has not been so hardened that they don't want the best for every pup that comes away from them. Finding that there is a problem that is potentially genetic should (in my opinion) get a much different response from that. I contacted many breeders who I did not end up purchasing from and got lengthy feedback on how best to raise my future V (even though they knew we wouldn't be working together - no litters, waiting list full, etc.). I was under the impression that breeding was not about the money, but about continuing a strong line (or at least producing dogs that will make great pets, at the worst). Producing healthy dogs should be vital to any breeder (again my opinion). If there is no way the health problems are due to their line that should be explained and condolences should be given. If it is due to their line, they need to stop breeding that line. 

I would have found the response repulsive as well, Buckley.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

did this post get lost ? or are we here to help the owner thru a lifetime of living with the pup ? put politics aside & help him with a pup he loves - advice direction & simular conditions - move on or help buck !


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

I agree and apologize. Keep us updated Buckley. I hope you find some of the links helpful and continue to get advice!


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## Buckley (Jan 8, 2013)

Thank you all for your responses. Right now we are just waiting to hear back from a specialist about Buckleys' knees. The vet told us that while there was clear evidence of hip dysplasia, he is not experiencing any symptoms from that, and that addressing the hips at this point (without first figuring out if there might be any options available for his knees) would be moot. We will for sure educate ourselves about the hip problems he is facing, but we feel kind of helpless in regards to his knees, as there isn't a name for what seems to be a very rare problem... It anyone has any experience with this, that would be greatly appreciated, and if not, thanks again for your support.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

I am very sorry to hear such a sad story, poor Buckley. I have no personal experience of his condition, but walk my wirehaired boy with a an 18month old female mastiff who has what sounds like the same/ similar condition to Buckley.

I knew Nalia had a problem with her back end and I knew she had surgery on her back end but did not know the full story. Today her owner was telling me that when she was about 12 wks they thought there was something wrong and by 20wks they knew she had a serious problem. She was diagnosed as having hip dysplacia in both hips and displacement of her ACLs. She was in a lot of pain and hated being near other dogs in case they knocked or jumped on her. 

Nalia's owners had 3 specialist examine her. One recommended leaving surgery and letting her grow and see what rest and time would do. The other two said rest, if that was possible, was not an option and that she should have the surgery asap. These consultations and arguments with their pet insurers took nearly 5 months. They also did a lot of research on the internet.

Nalia was 11 months old when she had both hips replaced at the same time and reconstruction of the ACLs, also clean up of torn cartilage. I expressed surprised that they had done both sides at the same time, but she said the specialists were adamant that was the best way to go. They have used special growing plates and bolts that allow a young dog to continue to grow, which I think is amazing.

Apparently, the next day Nalia was working really well and had to be restrainted. Six months on, and she gallops around with my pup and is clearly a happy dog. You can see sometimes that she drags a toe, but does not appear to be in pain. Her owner says some times she looks a bit stiff getting up when she has been lying down. 

I asked her if they felt they had made the right decision, and she said she didn't think Nalia would have been with them today if she hadn't had the surgery. From what I can see she is definitely enjoying a good quality of life.

I hope this gives you some hope, and I wish you and Buckley the very best.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

HD is a form of scurvy in dogs and in some way preventable with Ester C supplements. 
Just like with cancer, there is a food connection. 

http://www.thepowerhour.com/news2/vitaminc_pets.htm

Please know, kibble does not, cannot contain vitamin C in any form because it is destroyed during the heat cycle. Some manufacturers claim to spray vitamins in top of the kibble at the end of manufactuing. This if wishful thinking as the price would be on par with the price of gold. 
For this reason, a raw diet may better preventive option, although it has its problems. 
We fed/feed ester C and essential oils regularly and have had no problems with GSD, most famous for HD.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Have you asked your vet if he would send the medical records to some of the Veterinary colleges. If its a rare condition they would have an intrest. Maybe between them they can figure out the best route to help Buckley.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Buck - research the litter certificate & look at the OFA scores - this is hard to say - but unless willing to spend the time with a pup with his condition trade him back


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Finally, someone had the courage to put into writing. Thank you R E M.

Vizsla is a peculiar type of dog only recently uprooted from it's home land. Looks good but fragile as glass in the wrong environment, digestive problems, skin allergies, mental state.. The breed has been around for a long time and only by careful breeding, careful placement was/is the proven way. 

I would like to think that the answer lies in prevention through proper diet and exercise but, in fact, we have limited control over genetics. A better approach, still not 100% reliable, is careful genetic selection.

Buck, if this is your first dog and you have no experience with special needs animals, then exercise your rights outlined in the contract. 

Ironically, most people have no problem putting a $ value on the dog at time of purchase! Some, even negotiate further. This is the reality. 
Medical intervention sometimes is a guessing game, unless unlimited medical insurance... $value of the dog needs be weighted against total medical costs *in certain situations*.

Heartbreaking to post :'(


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

First off, I'm truly sorry you have this experience at all, and it is never easy. There is no easy answer. 


TexasRed said:


> I believe it would be better to have a heredity section. There you could post your dogs heredity problems and its bloodlines. Then how the breeder handled it.


I understand the sentiment and the reasoning behind it. It is a slippery slope and fraught with hazard. For instance, seizures is one area that is of concern in the health of Vizslas. However, there are many reasons a dog can have a seizure, from a head trauma to reaction to an environmental condition to genetics. As much as we like Veterinarians, they differ in opinion and diagnosis even among themselves, so essentially the reason is still an opinion, albeit of a particular Veterinarian.
As we are coming to discover, environmental factors play a large role in development and disease. Example the ramifications of early spay/neuter that is widely touted by Vets as a keep your dog healthy procedure, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Social media is good for many things, but I don't think this is one of them. It is all too easy to be branded negatively in today's society and the ramifications to the individual, whether deserved or not is significant. There is a reason we have a justice system and the mantra of innocent until proven guilty never applies to a forum, the press or an individual witch hunt...

Additionally, there are many resources already available to people who want to know what to look for and what to ask in a breeder. 
The Vizsla Club of America has a page specifically for this already in place. http://vcaweb.org/breed/find_a_breeder.shtml
Type in "Vizsla" on Google and page One gives a link to the Vizsla Club of America website and discusses in the search description responsible breeding. 

As most know, the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) maintains a database of dogs health checked for a myriad of conditions. www.offa.org 
Hip Dysplasia is the forefront of their work, and it is a simple check by typing in a dogs name or partial name or registration number. In less than 5 minutes I checked both Sire and Dam of this litter, and they are not in the database. That should be an automatic deal breaker for anyone looking to purchase a sporting Dog.

The unfortunate reality is we have seen several instances in the past year where THIS forum was solicited for it's advice in regards to a potential Puppy, the advice given of caution as red flags popped up, yet the individuals still go to the "not recommended" breeder, see a puppy, ignore the wisdom of those who replied on the forum and still buy a puppy... 

Ken


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Ken I would reply to your post ( OOH I am ) but that would be preaching to the choir ! I would hope are forum makes it VERY easy for someone looking for a V to get the best imfo on what to look for in a breeder - just posted BREEDERS & BREED - there are so many easy things to research a breeder and the pup lines - PIKE & I want a easy one click on the home page that will list these - if someone comes here looking for advice before getting a V - that should V the first thing the forum does!


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks for posting the info, Ken. I haven't seen this site but I did receive info from the breeder regarding this so this format is new to me.

I do have a stupid question- when I look up my pup's dad (mom isn't listed...) his tests were done in 2007 and came out as good (elbows were normal). Our pup was born in 2012. So how reliable are these tests given the span of time?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Ken you are RIGHT.
I was looking for the good that could come out of it, but I can see where it could turn bad very quickly.
I would hate to have a good breeders name drug though the mud. People can get upset quickly when their emotions are raw. Then trying to figure out if its hereditary or environmental that caused the problem.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Kb the tests are very reliable over time - the good thing the sire is at least 8 and if you have a good breeder must be healthy - but the tests just help cut down the odds -


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

redbirddog said:


> > Just an idea but wondering if get a new section on the forum for recommended vs not recommended breeders.
> >
> > We have are getting more and more potential owners that it would be good for us to start to compile good breeders and alert people to poor breeders.
> 
> ...


I would never want a good breeder to have their name dragged through the mud. However many sites like amazon and others allow people to feedback and rate places that they buy things from. For me it is the same. I believe openly sharing good or bad experiences and letting people take what they gain from this to form a decision. I am not suggesting we bash breeders but hey a quick list that tells me if it is a breeder that people have had success with or a puppy mill as a prospective puppy owner would be valuable in so many ways.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

I'm going to respond the latest comments on the BREEDERS & the BREED thread as I want to keep this one open to Buckley updates.

Link here:

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,6985.msg53886/topicseen.html#new


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## Kay92 (Oct 19, 2012)

As my mom posted, our little Riley had severe hip dysplasia. It was devastating to us, we did not have to think twice about the surgery. If you go for it and get it done remember that your little one will need you constantly. When Riley had his surgeries my mom and I would take turns sleeping on the floor beside the couch because he couldn't go up and down the stairs. I burst into tears when I took him potty because he couldn't hardly stand without his sling. We absolutely love him and would have done the same thing if we had to do it again. Please feel free to talk to my mom or I directly if you need extra support or advice on how to deal with this devastating news.


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## Sunnibells (Jan 26, 2013)

hi I'm so glad I found your post I too purchase a vizsla from sandra and I just came back from the vet and found out my mylee Bob has something wrong with her she can barley see and vet thinks she has something going on in the inside cause she looks like she's 6 months old I'm just so heart broken the vet said we might have to put her down  just wondering when did u purchase you male her parents are loose rendition and sire limited edition


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## Sunnibells (Jan 26, 2013)

sorry I see they do have the same parents ...kinda strange how 2 dogs from the same litter have problems I wonder if the other 3 do too ....


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## adrino (Mar 31, 2012)

How sad! Poor dogs....

There's nothing strange about having two sick dogs coming from the same litter when the so called "breeder" doesn't breed her dogs to improve the line but making money out of them. The probability is quite high for the rest of the litter to have some kind of health issues too. 

If there's any way I would report this breeder to the right authorities. Save the future pups and owners of a heartbreak.


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## johnskat (Sep 29, 2013)

I just saw this post and wanted to reply in regards to Sandra in Triangle Lake. I have purchased two Vizslas from her - Cooper (now 7 years old) and Charlie (now 2.5 years old) and have had no problems. In my opinion, she was not running a "puppy mill" - her place is not fancy (she lives on a farm) but the puppies/dogs/horses/chickens seemed cared for.


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