# Training Is Going Backwards - Is this Normal?



## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Boris has been a pleasure to train until recently. He learnt everything very quickly, as do most Vizslas. He started puppy agility 2 months ago and loved that and was really good, despite me always being in the wrong place.

Boris will be 1yr old on Christmas day and still entire. About two months ago he started to break his waits and was slow & reluctant to do a down. Now if I ask for a sit or a down he looks at me as if I am asking him to sit on a bed of nails. In a wait, as soon as I turn my back he is up and creeping forward. Today at agility he did a great round and there after his nose was to the ground and away looking for food and possibly a bird(I would like to think).

Every morning we go out walking and he is great at retrieving to hand, will seek out a hidden toy and is very obedient to recall. Why is he so naughty about the every day commands? My trainer says I should have him castrated, but yes he may be going through teenage hormones, but I don't think castration is going help this. Plus I really don't want or feel the need to castrate him.

Is this normal behaviour at this age, is there anything I can do to help improve his concentration? Prosac? Someone today, suggested giving him a complete break from all training for a month.

I want to do some one to one gun dog training after christmas, but feel he needs to be listening to me before we start further training.

Has anybody else experienced this problem?


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Castration is not going to solve your problem! It sounds to me like he's bored & going through a typical teenage independent stage. Cooper is challenging our commands now at 9 months old & he was neutered at 4 months old. There have been multiple times where we've gone hiking & when it's time to get in the car to go home he will stand about 20 yards away from me & just stare blankly while I'm calling him. 

A break from training might be in order. Or, you could change things up a bit & try some bird work!


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## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Re: Training Is Going Backwards - Is this Normal?*



hotmischief said:


> Boris will be 1yr old on Christmas day and still entire. About two months ago he started to break his waits and was slow & reluctant to do a down. Now if I ask for a sit or a down he looks at me as if I am asking him to sit on a bed of nails.
> 
> Is this normal behaviour at this age, is there anything I can do to help improve his concentration? Prosac?
> 
> I want to do some one to one gun dog training after christmas


I think most dogs become a bit defiant around this age, Kauzy did around 16 monthes. You have to be a strong handler. Make sure you are commanding him, not asking him. Your tone of voice will have a big impact. Also, strict positive reinforcement with treats will help remind if of the tasks at hand. Please don't use prozac, your pup doesn't need it. He just needs a strong alpha handler in his life. I used an e collar with much success.

Gun Training will be the greatest thing in the world for him. He's a natural hunter. When you see your pup work in the field you will see a different dog completely, a truly happy dog. I get excited to see my boy work, its the best part of my hunting experience by far


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Just a typical V teen methinks HM.  

To fix it, just tighten up and harden up a little on what you expect. These attempts to test you will continue to occur periodically over his life.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

dmak, I was only joking about Prozac 

I have always tried to make training fun and variable, but with the recent problems I have tried to take a firmer tone of voice with my commands, but I am not sure if this is the right approach as he looks at me as if he somewhat frightened and waves a paw in the air. In actual fact a firmer tone worries him as he thinks he has done something wrong. The fact that he hasn't done the command has gone from his mind.

I am afraid I am an anti re the use of an e-collar for this sort of basic training. Maybe, I should just give him a vacation from training over Christmas and then start again. I agree that the bird training would be good for him.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Ozkar, isn't it the middle of the night in Australia??

How do I toughen up without frightening him?


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## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm glad prozac was a joke. My neighbor just rescued a dog a few weeks ago andput his dog on prozac due to separation anxiety. Its sad to see his doped up pup.

As far as vocal tone, that's a tough one. Maybe a break will do him good. I'm sure Christmas will be enough of a challenge to his psyche; its always a little tough on Kauzy when we break routine for a week or two


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## Kay92 (Oct 19, 2012)

We are going through the same thing with Riley right now and he is going to be 2 next month. Plus he is neutered so I can say with all confidence that castration is not the answer. Stay patient. We are all right there with you.


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

I don't know how much your training, how long each day and how much agility training. I think a break is good just let him be a puppy for awhile. Keep training but make it light and fun. Fire your trainer that suggested castration. Find a good bird dog trainer, get the dog gun broke and chasing birds. Then pointing and retrieving shot birds. He will be excited to have a job and begin to think of you as more then just his master. You will be the pack leader in no time.


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## ryker (Apr 14, 2012)

My pup is almost 11 months old, and we're going through this stage too!

I felt better after I read your post. Ryker will try and 'sneak around' a sit command, or edge forward like eight feet as he goes to sit, or just look at me and ignore. I make certain that I use a commanding voice, I do not let him get away with it. When he decides he doesn't want to 'stay' after I turn my back on a stay command, I take him back to the exact spot until he does. If I give a command, I make sure in the end it is followed, even if I have to help him out.

I make sure and run through the training commands at least once a day inside, and outside. If he's off leash playing, I don't let him go too long without coming back to me, just so he knows he has to keep some focus on me, but can still run his energy off.

But still, he persists. SO STUBBORN!

He went through this around 8 months for a bit, and he is neutered as well, so I think it's his teenage muscles coming out for a stretch!


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## Racer (Apr 23, 2012)

My boy is 14 months and still intact. I've been lucky in that the teenage rebellion has been very limited. 

Every dog is different, so tactics may vary. Try increasing the level of NIFL. He needs to understand you're in control of the key resources in his life.

Meals are great to teach/reinforce this. I do the majority of my obedience training around meals. Before each meal he goes through a series of commands for single pieces of kibble. I use a small handful of kibble, so it goes by pretty quick.

He also has to do a down stay right in front of the bowl before getting to eat it. This can range in duration from 1 to 5 minutes. During that time I usually leave the room and do some stuff and come back. A few days a week he also gets a turkey wing which is really high value to him. Same sort of drill.

At this point, he understands I control the resources. One thing I find pretty interesting is that he can tell what is mine versus "his". Unless I give it to him, he won't touch it because he knows I own it (that's my theory). I've never done anything to teach him that.

I don't use NILF to a tee because I don't think I need to. Customize it to what makes sense for you.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Please, do not even think that breaking a down stay or sit stay or any other combination has anything to do with with Boris (or any other lucky dog), keeping his natural decorations.... Do not even look down there (seriously). These accessories came with the dog and belong to them. Just about the only thing they truly own.

====================

I know from my boy and from Tony (GSD), as they mature they become more thoughtful. 

A new level in your relationship is emerging. 
The dog starts to think and that is just fine. 
Nobody is perfect, as they mature, "loop-holes" in your training become more evident. That is one way of looking at it (the dog knows the command but negotiates them).

Some commands are uncomfortable or issued without thinking and the dog knows better, it will listen but, may negotiate the command. 
When I say SIT, boy will look around and sit on carpet. If he cannot find a cushy place he hill do stand-sit or just walk to a carpeted place. 
In that case I have a choice to repeat and use a little negative enforcement (old enough to withstand some nagging) or praise the boy for being smart. I choose praise because I don't compete and my ego is just fine.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

hotmischief said:


> Ozkar, isn't it the middle of the night in Australia??
> 
> How do I toughen up without frightening him?


Nah...I posted that at about 5.30pm HM.

Go back to basics HM. What I meant by tightening up, is enforcing commands in a more timely manner. Over time we accept slight deviations from the actual command without realising it. Go back to ......command......enact...reward......... based training with lots of repetitions ensuring the action occurs promptly. Accept nothing but what is expected. Don't give in to other treats or rewards without the behaviour improving. Make pup earn everything again, be it food, a pat, a walk, time on the couch, ball/playtime or anything.

Walks go back to on leash also. I find when mine start stepping out of line, losing off lead priveledges get's their attention fast.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Thank you all for your very helpful comments and suggestions. It is good to know that others have/ and have had the same problem. I am also pleased that you have all confirmed that this problem has nothing to do with his crown jewels, especially as it I do not normally castrate any of my males. 

Most of all reading through your posts has made me think...(not something I do too often). I have always used treats for training, but my trainer has been getting me to reduce the amount of treats for the older commands and only treat for new things. Yet when *Racer* mentioned about using meal times to train, that made me think. Boris has always been greedy so he always has to sit and wait, and yes he still does this perfectly, never breaking the command until he is releassed. Bingo, I need to go back to using more treats, and yes I need to go back to basics, and yes I am persistent, when he breaks a down/sit stay I take him back to the same spot. Now I leave him for only 4/5 strides and go back and reward. Very disappointing when I used to beable to leave the room for 3 minutes. 

Typing this...I can hear my frustration, so I need to sort that out as I have a great dog but I am obviously not as good at training a dog as I thought.

Thank you all for your very thoughtful comments, it is great to have this forum to get such great help and advise


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Treats up to the point the dog trusts and knows only good things happen to him when you are around.
Marker training is a pretty good alternative to negative enforcement. 

For example, our boy knows YES means he did good and NO+command means he did not fully comply and should try again. 

May work for Boris as well but, I doubt using strictly food rewards will accomplish desired results.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Datacan - do you mean by marker training, use of the voice to praise with YES and NO? I do use my voice "good boy" for positive reinforcement, with or without treats and "NO" for negative. Is that what you mean?


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## adrino (Mar 31, 2012)

Hey Hotmischief! 
Bit late to chime in...

We are having extensive obedience regression with Elza too. 
She's a nightmare sometimes! It feels like anything I taught her just went out of the window and she does whatever she wants to. 

At 13 months old we know she's trying us and all we can do is take each day as a new day. Some days are just fine but others are terrible. She decided to jump up on many people in the park. She tries to get into people's bags and pockets if she smells food. The other day I just met up with my friend who carried boiled chicken treats in her bag. Elza run up to her got into her bag, stole the plastic bag the treats were in, ripped it apart and had the lot. She almost ate the plastic bag too!!!!! It's impossible to stay calm in that situation, even though I had treats with me too she wouldn't listen and run away from us. Then she tried to get into her bag again and again jumping up on her, almost knocking her off her feet the whole time. Trust me I didn't just stand there let her do it but its hard to predict when she's going to do it again. 
At the end if our walk she would ignore my recall and just stand far enough from me that I can't get her. If I walk away she follows but as soon as I call her again or try to get her she will run away! 

We are doing positively reinforced training and she's quite good but then all of a sudden she will just disobey my commands.

Recently I'm having some personal issues too and I know that affects my posture and voice and I am almost certain that is also a problem. 

It's hard to stay calm and keep your cool when your dog doesn't give a **** about you. I'm trying to stay positive and keep things the same way. 

Oh another thing, she regularly 'talks back' to me when I tell her off or give her a command she doesn't want to do. She gives little or big barks or whining noises while she breaks the command. 


I read all the commands but I'm still not sure how to proceed... :-\


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I would put Elza back on a check cord on runs and do lots of leash walks too. You have to let her know you still have control. She is testing you and wining at this point.


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

My boy did the same HM at about 16 months to now currently 20 months. 

I am thinking about bribing him with a new car as I have told he is a teenager! 

Hope Boris improves for you soon. I have found it difficult that one day Mac is good as gold and the next he challenges everything I ask of him.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Born36 - like that suggestion - told the husband that Boris needs a Ferrari for xmas???He said Boris needs a new home for xmas .

Adrino, it is comforting to hear that you and others are suffering these "teenage tantrums". We are not alone. Bye the way sorry you didn't make the L&S whizz at Epsom Racecourse on Sunday it was fabulous, you too Corey.

As you say voice and body language have a lot to do with our problem. I am pleased to say that despite his other childish pranks, Boris is still very obedient to recall, so that is one thing to be thankful for. 

Last week I had arranged to go to this new trainer with a new friend from agility - just the two of us, and I think it helped a lot. When Boris was naughty playing tugger with the lead and jumping up and trying to chew my hand. The trainer very calmly said, one command, hand behind the head and "no" in a very firm voice, wait till he is calm and then calmly praise him before continuing with the exercise. She said what ever he does wrong, doesn't matter how long it takes to calm him down then start again. The firmer voice worked well as did the firm hand behind his head. After calming down, his attention was back on me and he behaved much better. I am being too nice repeating my commands to the point that like children he probably switches off. The interesting think is I know a lot of this, but as Adrino says you get so frustrated with them being naughty your whole tone changes. It was really good to have it pointed out and I think this new trainer will be good for us.

I am definitely going to take him bird training in the NY, but I will give him a break except for every day training whilst out walking.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

hotmischief, negative marker training is nice because there is no negative physical feedback. Instead, a negative marker is used... That marker is the word NO, followed by the command. 
For example, Boris SIT... if Boris sits use the positive marker YES (job done) if the Boris fails or does something else like lie down, then use a negative marker NO, SIT. That goes for every command. Keep repeating the negative marker until you are satisfied with the result. Easier if the dog is on a longer leash at the beginning...

For this to work, the positive marker must be food or toy enforced (food if food drive is high like with puppies and toy if pray drive is higher (as is with adolescent or adult dogs). 

http://www.ehow.com/way_5147132_marker-training-dogs.html


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Datacan, that is so simple. I use the negative marker NO for bad behaviour anyway so he knows that, so will just introduce the positive marker YES. 

Thank you for that, will let you know how I get on.


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## Krystleajustice (Dec 22, 2012)

I may be on the wrong thread but I feel the same and my pooch, Thelma, is only 16 weeks!! All of a sudden she wont sit, runs away when she's to go in her crate, refuses to come in from the garden.. The list goes on! It seems to be mixed with a game and definitely some naughtiness!! I would find this normal if she wasn't so good just a couple of weeks ago! Is it a confidence thing? She almost seems too confident and boisterous! Not scared of anything. Even the breeder mentioned that she was the dominant one in the pack from 4 weeks!! She is a very happy pup and exercised well. Just a thought, we just got back from spending Christmas with my Mum and her Husky. They got on so well and I think she was a little spoilt with all the attention and play! Is she now rebelling? I'm a bit worried as the other day we were walking in the park, on lead, and a dog bit her as Thelma was jumping on the other dog! After I pulled her away, she just tried to run back! Did not get the message at all! This is not the first time this has happened either..
Normal?? (sorry for the long message..)


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Thelma is still very young, I suspect that you have just let her training lapse a bit over the holidays.

Just go back to teaching the basics as if you were starting from the beginning again.

I have learnt several things over the last month. Using very firm commands worries my boy more than anything else. He looks like he is going to cry and almost says what am I doing wrong. I started back at very basic training and praising very quickly when he is obedient and a No when he gets it wrong. The most important think I had lost sight of was that this dog is so keen to please he is worried if he isn't understanding me. 

When we are out hiking his sits and waits are much improved, but at agility he still keeps breaking the wait as he is trying to please me by anticipating the move off. With patience and repetition we will sort it. 

In two week we have our first one to one hunting lesson and I am sure we will both learn alot. 

Be clear in your commads, qiock to reward, but most importantly be patient.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Datacan, I've been using a small amount of negative marker training on improving Zsa Zsa's delivery to hand. But, to be honest, I am finding it confuses her. Even though she knows the word NO. She knows that NO means she's going down the wrong path, it doesn't work nearly as effectively in improving hand delivery as does ignoring the bad return and just praising and rewarding the ones she does hand deliver. I got more improvement yesterday at the lake with ignoring a bad one and focussing the praise/reward on the perfect ones, than i did this morning on the walk, where we had 100% hand delivery. Don't get me wrong, I think it has it's place, but it wasn't working in this case, so I thought I would throw it on here for food for thought.....


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Zsa Zsa sounds like my female June. Soft on training but loves to please. With her I just refuse to play if she doesn't play by my rules. She picks praise over being ignored. Negative markers on training to retrieve and she is finished with the game.
Cash is the exact opposite. He has to be given negative and positive markers. If ignored he will just figure out something else to do.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

I see Oz... What I meant is with one step commands like sit, come, heel... marker training, combined with use of marker boards (piece of cardboard or wood tile, dog gets praise/reward when it stops on the board), works very well. 

The fetch and deliver to hand, from what I understand is a multiple step process. I may be wrong, the command looks like it's about a five step process ( 1. go to the item, 2. grab the item, 3. carry it to me, 4. sit in front of me, 5. give the item to me when I ask for it) 

Perhaps, backchaining or training the last step first, would be a useful approach... followed by carry, sit and give... and then finally putting it all together and call it fetch or find or 

I have a question, if hunting, unless trained, the dog will not bring back dead? Is find dead a separately trained command?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Quite a few dogs will naturally retrieve dead game.

Mine do learn the command dead. I use it to help recover another hunters lost downed bird. The hunter knows the general area. The dead bird command lets the dog know there is a downed bird and to hunt close in that general area.

Teaching a formal retrive to hand is a totally different ball of wax than what Ozkar is doing with Zsa Zsa.
Its done with pressure being put on the dog. Its do what I say, how I say, when I say.
Yes it does start out with the dog next to you. Learning to take the object from your hand and hold it until told to give.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Data, as I don't hunt birds, my retrieval training is for just in case we decide to and just because that's what I want. We hunt Deer 99% of the time, so retrieving is a tad cumbersome 

But mine respond to the bow being released, follow the arrow, then scent track the Deer to it's final resting place. Oddly, I never really trained them with this. We just went hunting and I allowed it to develop naturally.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Thanks, I noticed Sammy treats a frozen bird differently than live. 

It's time for a trainer if I have further aspirations  my bad, I thought Vizsla will automatically find and bring all downed game. 
We are only playing but looks like the more I toy with the boy the more we are drawn into it.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: Re: Training Is Going Backwards - Is this Normal?*



datacan said:


> Thanks, I noticed Sammy treats a frozen bird differently than live.
> 
> It's time for a trainer if I have further aspirations  my bad, I thought Vizsla will automatically find and bring all downed game.
> We are only playing but looks like the more I toy with the boy the more we are drawn into it.


That's what got me as well. Watching how happy they were while hunting was something I could no longer deny them.


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