# Breeder issues, maybe...



## dmp (Jan 23, 2012)

What to make of this, if anything.

From my pup's litter, her brother went to a forum member. KB posted up about her pup's having a minor but 'wait and see' issue. I know that member let the breeder know about the condition, as a courtesy. When I sent the notification of our pup's recessed vulva he sent a note back saying he's "never had any problems with his puppies." I asked him directly - had any other from our pup's litter let him know of any problems?

Got this reply:

"We have not heard from any of the other families regarding any health issues. Although we have heard from them and received pictures of the puppies and how happy they are. Is it possible your puppy has caught an infection from touching the ground?

Keep me informed."

I want to give him the benefit of the doubt...but...I guess other than perhaps not recommend them to others I have no recourse. Is this a big deal? I suppose it's not - its just the way things are. And honestly, our pup's temperament and "person"ality are above reproach.


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## adrino (Mar 31, 2012)

Oh *dmp*! This is kinda aqward with your breeder now. Certainly you have caught them lying since you have clear proof of the opposite. I truly understand your disappointment with them. We all hope we have find a great breeder and when you get to know you didn't it's not very nice. :-[
I think all you can do is spread the word around but I guess is so much you can do. Is there anything can be done through the Kennel Club? Inform them about your concern maybe? Are they registered with them by the way? 
Although you have to look all the aspects of your pup, having a health issue (I hope she won't!!!) for the rest of her life it's a big deal and the breeder should take it seriously instead of trying to deny it.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I don't think its the way things are. 
My female June ( not a puppy any longer) has a knee injury right now. When she started having a skip in her gait I let him know by email. He responded right away and told me to be sure and let him know if it improved or if she went to the vet. When I made the vet appointment I let him know the date. He responded with please call me when you find out whats causing the problem. I told him if its something bad I may need a day to come to term with it, but otherwise I would call. I did and he answered his phone even though he was at work.


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

I still wonder if the husband doesn't know about Haeden potentially having a murmur since the wife responded. Not an excuse but I do wonder if that plays into it. Interesting response from them nonetheless.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

KB I think you are being very generous.

Surely if you are a serious breeder you discuss health issues in a litter that your husband/wife has produced. After having been notified that two of your pups have health issues you would think they would be contaccting both of you for updates.

Please notify the kennel club that two pups from the same litter have health issues, they will hopefully notify the breeder that they will not register puppies from that dog or bitch from any future matings.

More importantly I do hope both your pups will grow up to live healthly lives.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I had similar issues with my first two Cocker Spaniel breeders. Immediately defensive, "nothing wrong with our pups" responses. First one had to have the third eyelids removed, 2nd breeder had my girl and her son both go over the rainbow bridge with Dilated Cardio Myopathy early in life. 

Thankfully, V breeders over here seem to be a lot more concerned if an issue arises. Ozkar has allergies and the breeder was very concerned and continually emails me for updates. Astro appears to be bulletproof though. (He's 40kgs now and people are always mistaking him for a Ridgie. Freekin huge...to big for the standard....but I love him anyways and he's going to be a great little-big-hunter!)


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## dmp (Jan 23, 2012)

Thanks guys; anyone think its worth sending a reply to the breeder with regards to the facts as i know them?


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I would just sit on it for the moment. Judging by the initial reaction, it may serve no purpose except to completely alienate them from any interaction. Keep it up your sleeve till you need to bring it out. 

Not that you'd want your money back or anything.... all you'd really like I guess is a little care factor!! Maybe some concern or interest. It's why I love dogs more and more and people less and less!!  (Present company excepted of course....)


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## dmp (Jan 23, 2012)

I suppose, even more than that - I'm hoping he never again tells customers "We've never had ANY problems with our pups, ever. For real. And stuff"

Simple acknowledgement and concern. No, no refunds required nor saught. Just...I dunno..for a breeder of the Vizsla - simple concern, empathy, etc...would go a long way.

Thanks!



Ozkar said:


> I would just sit on it for the moment. Judging by the initial reaction, it may serve no purpose except to completely alienate them from any interaction. Keep it up your sleeve till you need to bring it out.
> 
> Not that you'd want your money back or anything.... all you'd really like I guess is a little care factor!! Maybe some concern or interest. It's why I love dogs more and more and people less and less!!  (Present company excepted of course....)


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

*dmp* and *DB* do your vets think that your pups problems are genetic? I guess that is something that you will may never know.

Whether the problems are just a freek accident of nature it is very disappointing that the breeder is not supportive and wanting to know at regular interval how they are.

Fortunately, the breeders of both my dogs have been really great whenever I have had a problem. My Dane breeder lost one of her best dogs to Cardio Myopothy and she contacted all her puppy owners to see if they had any problems and has closed that line of dogs for breeding and started a new line by importing. She has all her dogs screened for hips, eyes and heart disease. She said she couldn't bear for anyone to go through the heartbreak that she suffered having her three year old dog drop dead in front of her.


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## dmp (Jan 23, 2012)

HMC - Yes, for my pup's issue the vet suspects somewhere down the line other females had the condition. However, as breeding dogs, the breeders may not have been aware. But most physical stuff - anatomy stuff - can probably be linked to genetics somewhere. Recessive genes and whatnot. 

Now - here's a development. Pup hasn't had an accident since getting her back from the vet. Now - we're keeping her on tile now, with blankets in her exercise pen. She's been playful, loving, and - of course - an occasional 15" tall white shark...but covered in "adorable".


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

dmp - that's great news and gives you hope. I am so pleased she is happy and playful. Doesn't sound like she is uncomfortable.

Thanks for the information re the genetics - I find that sort of thing very interesting. Yes you might be right about the breeder not knowing about other pups, but likely hood is that they do. I think most new puppy owners tend to keep in touch with their breeders for a while, especially if they have problems and need support. You are very generous in giving them the benefit of the doubt, I don't think, given their email reponse that I would have been that generous. :-X Good on you.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Even if they never had one of their dogs have one of the problems you described would they be responsible? Yes and No.
If its not in their contract then legally they are not responsible.
Now that changes if they know there is a problem in their breeding program, and they lie about past problems with litters of the same breeding. I'm not saying they did, just saying IF.
This is one of the reasons people need to stay in contact with the breeders.
Ethical breeders want to know the good or bad of pups from a litter. They base the information on whether to do a repeat breeding at a later time on that information. If there is a problem with one puppy they will contact and ask the owners of other littermates to see if they are having the same problem. 
A breeder doing everything possible to produce healthy pups does not mean a pup can't have a health issue, but there is less of a chance of it happening.


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

hotmischief, our pup has a grade 2 heart murmur on a scale of 1-6. We have discussed this at length with our vet and she has been sure to tell us that this is common in puppies and they usually grow out of it around 16 weeks as their bodies continue to develop. Right now since it is a low level murmur she does not believe it to be genetic but more of an issue with a valve in the heart not closing off during development which is specific to our pup's growth alone.

When we picked up the pup from the breeder they asked that we email them to tell them how the pup was doing and to let them know what the vet thought of the pup since our vet is quite familiar with the breed. When I updated them I did mention about the slight murmur but that the vet thinks there's a very decent likelihood of him growing out of it but I would update them around 16 weeks to let them know if it was still there or stronger- basically a wait and see if it's our vet officially diagnoses the health issue aside from noting that they hear a murmur. I didn't make a huge deal about it because our vet informed us not to worry and it's a wait and see situation but it often goes away. Our response from the breeder was "Happy to hear he is doing well and is a very smart puppy. I am sure there is nothing to worry about- my vet checked each puppy. I am sure everything will be fine. Please stay in touch."

I think the breeder took our lead with the fact that we aren't worrying quite yet and is waiting to hear if it is in fact a health issue or if it something that needed time to correct itself. We go back to the vet tomorrow and I will send them an update of what our findings are. My understanding is that if it is still present after 16 weeks then we will do tests to officially diagnose the murmur and find the root cause of the issue. Until then it's something to monitor, not yet diagnose.

I have no idea why the breeder didn't mention it to dmp, but I do wonder if it was because the wife responded to my email but the husband responded to dmp's (yes, I know this is a silly idea but I do wonder since there have been communication issues in the past as a result of this) or if it wasn't mentioned since it isn't hasn't been officially diagnosed as a health issue yet. I honestly have no idea why it wasn't brought up. But I do know our pup is healthy and our vet has told us we have no reason to worry about his health at this point in time.


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## dmp (Jan 23, 2012)

Good points Red. My issue with them is not assigning responsibilty, but seeking empathy, or at least honest concern. Statistical improbability for them to have "never" had a problem with a puppy, would you agree? 

To me their MO is "Defend and Deflect" - that's what bothers me. Sure the owner said "My phone is available at all times. If you have any questions feel free to call!"

Maybe I'll call him. Sometimes I think its not worth the stress. I'm sure what'd happen. A 15 minute "converation" where I say one thing, in 15 seconds, then hear 14 mins and 45 seconds of deflection and denial.


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## kellygh (Oct 25, 2010)

I have not been visiting the forum much due to life events, so please forgive me for chiming in knowing I may have incomplete info. I am assuming, dmp, that your pup had a UTI & vet said she also has a recessed vulva. Our Pumpkin had a slightly recessed vulva that was found after what seemed like the never ending UTI when she was young. I contacted the breeder, who also said she had not had this issue before; however, she was empathetic and offered some money for treatment. That being said, based on my experience, consultation with a reproductive specialist, and research (which is subject to dispute of course), it is not agreed in the medical community that a recessed vulva is genetic. Genes potentially play a role, but a recessed/inverted vulva is found in pedigrees with no previous evidence; in addition, there are environmental factors that cause the condition as well. I was told it is more common in larger breeds, overweight dogs, and can appear more pronounced in smaller &/or thinner dogs. It is common enough that many breeders stipulate in their health guarantees that a recessed vulva is not covered. Some breeders who knowingly sell pups with a recessed vulva with offer them at a reduced cost & strict no breed contract. Would I breed a bitch with a recessed vulva? No, but IMO after a lot of research, it is possible for a pup to have this condition and the breeder not have had a previous issue. Please understand I am not absolving your breeder of any responsibility, especially for seemingly being unconcerned, but the recessed vulva alone does not necessarily make an irresponsible breeder. The good news is that many cases resolve with growth and allowing the female to go through the 1st heat cycle. The swelling is often all it takes to push the vulva/skin folds out. After a few weeks, you can then spay. Pumpkin's case was mild, but we were still proactive in keeping the vaginal area clean. We used unscented baby wipes to gently clean around the vulva folds before bed time. We allowed Pumpkin to go through her 1st heat, for a variety of reasons, and her case is a non issue. Once we got the 1st UTI cleared up with a strong antibiotic, we have not had a recurrence of a UTI or any type of vaginitis. I'm sorry your breeder has not been more caring about your concerns. That's definitely not cool, but stats indicate that the recessed vulva does not mean a life curse for your girl--especially if you are proactive with cleaning. You may also try supplements such as cranberry as a preventative-per vet approval. Again, excuse some of my response if it is off base due to having missed previous posts. Good Luck, dmp!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I think your wanting to know if your breeder is ethical and responsible. I think you may have lost your trust in them and without knowing more owners of their litters you may never know if your worries are unfounded.
If I was a breeder (I'm not) I would want proof from the vet that there was a problem. Yes I would be compassionate, but I wouldn't just take someones word that one exists. I don't know your breeder or how many litters they have had. So I would not be able to guess if they have had any problems before with a pup.


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## kristen (Oct 18, 2011)

KB87 said:


> our pup has a grade 2 heart murmur


KB87, our pup had a slight murmur at our vets first exam of him when we brought him home at 9 weeks. By the time he was in for his 3rd round of shots, the murmur was gone, and has stayed gone!
My vet also said that its very common. Best of luck, and keep us updated!


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks for the encouragement, Kristen! Tomorrow he is going in for his third round and we're hopeful that it will be a grade 1, if not gone completely! It doesn't seem to effect him and out vet told us we shouldn't worry until we need to so that's exactly what we've done. Glad to hear your pup grew out of his murmur and hasn't come back! I'm hoping we have a very similar story tomorrow!


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## dmp (Jan 23, 2012)

Reading back thru this - I think I'm over-sensative. See, here's the deal - most-every-one of you are strangers
to me. You folks show a level of concern, caring, and empathy I expected of the breeder - with whom I expected
just a little more than a 'business relationship' i guess. 

Thanks everyone.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Dmp - you love and protect your pup - sounds like the next pup will be coming from another breeder - Like you I expect advice and support from my breeder for the life of the puppy - that being said - PIKE and I hope there is nothing but good news from the Vet !


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## kellygh (Oct 25, 2010)

dmp said:


> Reading back thru this - I think I'm over-sensative. See, here's the deal - most-every-one of you are strangers
> to me. You folks show a level of concern, caring, and empathy I expected of the breeder - with whom I expected
> just a little more than a 'business relationship' i guess.
> 
> Thanks everyone.


No way! Not too sensitive  When we were given Pumpkin's "diagnosis," I was pissed! I seemed to be on a mission to prove our breeder's negligence (genetic issue) until the specialist at a prominent vet school said "not so fast." You should expect good follow-up and genuine concern from a breeder! There are plenty of breeders eager to take credit for the ribbons, champion trialers, and successful hunt tests, but what separates the really great breeders are those who do not abandon owners/pups who show signs of weakness, illness, or some adversity. Wonderful breeders offer the same level of care, advice, and concern no matter what! The reality is even the best pedigrees have the potential to throw a pup who isn't going to cut it in the field, show ring, or develops an unforeseen medical issue. Those breeders who do not recognize this should get out of the "business" of breeding, because they are indicating through behavior that it is a business rather than a love of breed. Just my opinion, but I think you have every reason to expect more from your breeder. My previous post was only to let you know that you have every reason to be hopeful that your girl will not suffer a life full of UTI's, meds etc.


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## dmp (Jan 23, 2012)

Thanks Kelly - much appreciated.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

As far as breeders are concerned, knowledge, love and commitment to the breed should be first priority. Breeding dogs doesn't make much money.

These are dogs, not human beings. Genetic defects are addressed by not allowing the dogs to breed anymore. That's how the breed became strong. *No amount of after-service and phone support can compensate.* 

We had a clause in our contract that allowed 72 hours vet check - after purchase. I never exercised that right because I could not bear the thought of returning Sam. Not because I am super attached to the dog... I believed the breeder did everything possible to to ensure a genetically healthy dog. 

Judging from your breeder's response... YOUR NEXT DOG WILL BE FROM A DIFFERENT BREEDER. I hope this doesn't change your commitment to the Vizsla breed.

Regards,
Julius


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Kelly, thank you for both of your excellent posts, they were very interesting and informative.

dmp, I think Kelly has given you every reason to be hopeful that your pups condition will improve. And here is the deal - NO YOU ARE NOT BEING OVER SENSITIVE, but I am glad the lovely people of this great forum are able to give you the support your breeder has not provided.

KB - I do hope you have good news tomorrow. It is good to hear that the murmur does not seem to effect her in any way. 
I have a heart murmur caused by a hole in my heart - 18 months ago I cycled from London to Paris (and I am not so young these day) and I used to compete my horses at quite a high level - so even if the murmur remains it is possible for Haeden to live a normal life.


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

That's awesome to hear, hotmischief! London to Paris sounds like an amazing trip and quite a fabulous story!

Our vet reassured us that there are functional murmurs should it not go away and her own infant daughter has a heart murmur. Our vet has been extremely reassuring and gone over every concern we have had along the way. Hopefully tomorrow we won't have any more concerns. It is fabulous to get reassurance from yourself as well! Thank you!


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

Well, our little guy still has a murmur which the vet is still grading around a 2. She doesn't believe it's gotten any better or any worse but she also believes that it will be a functional murmur which he will be able to live with and it won't effect him. Between 6 months and the time of his neuter (we'll do around 14 months) he will need to have an ultrasound done by a cardiologist. Still no mention of it being genetic- simply a valve that didn't close off specific to his growth alone. She still isn't worried so we're following her lead and aren't worrying either. He's a healthy, happy, active pup and we haven't seen any signs of issues so I think the situation is as good as it could possibly be right now given the murmur


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

An ultrasound of the heart (perhaps later)? 
I think that is more definitive than just listening to the heart. If one of the valves is leaking the max cardiac output would be a little lower than normal... Running slower would be wise - although I don't know how that is possible with a V.


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## KB87 (Jan 30, 2012)

datacan, we inquired about watching the amount and level of activity. We were informed to not do anything different as our vet doesn't believe it will harm him since he is showing no signs of distress. We don't run him and always keep a watchful eye on our baby. That's our biggest worry with him.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

dmp - I agree totally with your vet. As long as your pup is looking healthy, I would think there is a good chance that it will never bother her.

Quite often these murmurs resolve themselves as they grow - unfortunately mine did not. The only problem I have is that I get breathless if I run and run and run. So watch out for breathlessness, but like me, I am sure she will stop and catch her breath when she needs to.

She is a beautiful puppy so the breeders must have done something right.

I look forward to seeing photos of her as she grows.


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## Darcy1311 (May 27, 2012)

I had a Weimaraner up until last year and he had a heart murmour, the vet said it was mitral heart valve failure, he had it all his long life dying of cancer last year...his murmour was a grade 3 and he was put on a tablet called vet medin costing me 40 pounds per month..the murmour remained grade 3 up until his sad death...........I now have a beautiful Vizsla and when I took her to our new vets I told him about my Weimarener and his murmour, my new vet said he would NOT have given him vet medin and that he would have not treated it as it was better just to leave it alone..


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

We had 3 vets so far.. First one was afraid to touch Sam (too jumpy)... second vet, same thing.... third vet owns a GSP. 
The last one is rather thorough and I must admit it makes me a little uncomfortable... small health issues that resolve themselves, I rather not know about.

KB, dmp I wish the best for your pups.

The moment I picked my V, I decided to trust the breeder and keep my eyes and ears shut until I stumble across a *big* concern... at that moment I will seek a second opinions and weigh my options accordingly. Overall, dog's quality of life is more important to me...


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## Emily1970 (Apr 21, 2011)

Our breeder suddenly disappeared when Riley's hip issues were brought to their attention. Vet AND surgeon said genetic, so we let the breeder know. He immediately became defensive and wanted us to give Riley back to him and replace him with another pup and when that didn't work was trying to have us have him put down because of the expense to get him sorted out. I told him there was no way we were putting him down or giving him back. We assured him we didn't want money, we just wanted to let him know this happened. He said to keep him updated on Riley's progress and we did thru texts. Not 1 response. And he was supposed to be reputable.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Hi Emily,

I was just wondering how you and Riley are getting on - how is he progressing?

Your breeder sounds just charming   There should be a black list for breeder like that, suggesting that you have him put down - the nerve of the man.


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## Emily1970 (Apr 21, 2011)

We go for x-rays this Thursday. Then we will find out if he is ready to start exercise or has to be held back for 4 more weeks. He is doing lots better though. He doesn't seem depressed anymore. He is back to his mischievous, ornery self and is getting harder and harder to keep down. He gets mad if you try to keep him from doing stuff. The only thing he "allows" us to do for him is if he wants to get up and lie on something, he will lay his head on it. His hind end has no muscles left and he can't jump even if he wanted to! Thanks for asking!


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Good Luck for thursday and I am so pleased he is on the up and up  

Keep us posted.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Em PIKE & I are sorry for what you & Riley are going through - You are a great owner and loyal to your V! sorry that your breeder did not get back in touch with you - the least he could of done was let you know how Riley's litter mates are doing and if they have any health issues ! looks like out of sight out of mind - he must not have respect for the breed IMO ! Riley like our children were our CHOICE - to give him back or put him down is just a way for the breeder to get the pup off the books and move on to the next buyer - HANG in there Em!


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## Emily1970 (Apr 21, 2011)

Thanks! Isn't it interesting though. Our rescue V, Chuck, is registered but we chose not to reregister him in our name because for one, we didn't care and for two, the previous owner wanted us to sign some contract with her. NOT! Chuck was neglected the first year of his life and his only problem has been worms (they never wormed him) and ear infections, but Riley came from such a "respected" breeder and has lived a life of luxury and we're into him for $11,000 now. I think in the future I would choose rescuing a V over a breeder. The experience has made it hard to trust them.


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## Emily1970 (Apr 21, 2011)

But don't think for a minute that we wouldn't pay it all over again to have Riley healthy again!


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## kellygh (Oct 25, 2010)

Chuck & Riley are very blessed


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

With the way most (but not all) contracts are written its a shame. We feel like these dogs are family. If a hereditary issue develops the last thing we want to do is return them to the breeder for a new puppy.
I know some of the Lab breeders have started changing their contracts.
It gives the buyers the option of keeping the puppy and being reimbursed all or most of the purchase price, if they choose not to return the puppy.


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