# Vizsla's sold in pet stores - can we stop it?



## Pat (Jul 29, 2011)

I am wondering if anyone else is concerned about Vizsla's being sold in pet stores. I recently was contacted by my step daughter about a puppy who had been in a PJ's Pet Store for over a month. He was over 4 months old and was getting only a few minutes of exercise a day. He had parasites and his eyes and skin were dry. Of course he was not house trained and only knew to use his small crate. My heart broke and I paid the $700 for him (they were lowering the price from $1300 since no one was buying him, when he was in the observation room he went crazy with jumping and scratching and biting, of course). I took him home, socialized him with my own Vizsla and got him health and then gave him to a good home. Is there anything can do to stop them selling hunting dogs in pet stores? Not only is it cruel to the dogs anyone who doesn't understand the needs of these dogs is not going to keep them and then the animals get mistreated again. I tried to contact the breeder but of coruse they o not accept calls. There are some reports from the CBC that pet stores use puppy mills so I guess they don't accept calls. The manager of dog administration at the chain did not return my call either and the manager at the store declared that they have been selling dogs for 40 years and there is no cruelty involved. 
Pat


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Pat,

I would contact the local newspaper and either talk to a reporter about this type of behavior or write an editorial.

Also if there is a sportsman club or Vizsla club or any group like that in your area, organize a discussion with the pet shop owner. Let the pet shop owner know that no supplies will be purchased and the word will be put out to boycott the store.

Free market works both ways. You are dog owners that buy dog supplies. If the pet shop owner agrees to stop, then offer them business. If not, then use public opinion and financial burden to stop them.

My .02

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/03/what-is-commercial-breeder-family-news.html

Rod a.k.a. redbirddog


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## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

Oh, that's terribly sad. Pet stores that sell animals are not good places. It is pretty much guaranteed that they got their pups from a puppy mill. Reputable breeders do not need to sell their pups anonymously through a pet store. I used to volunteer at a shelter that would receive tips on puppy mills in the area and go make sure they got shut down. Unfortunately, the proprietors of these puppy mills just lie low for a few months, then get back in the business in a different location. I heard so many horror stories about these places, and saw so many breeding dogs and puppies that were in terrible condition when they arrived at the shelter. Despite being a terrible practice, it's apparently still profitable enough to keep going. Wish there was a lot more education about this kind of thing--Bob Barker and Betty White need to get all over this!

If there are other puppies that you saw there that have health concerns as well, such as the parasites or general ill health, that is considered passive animal cruelty (neglect), and you may be able to contact someone official about this kind of thing. That'd be especially true if the pups have parasites and it appears the pet store is doing nothing about it--they are now refusing very basic veterinary care to the animals.

Agree with Rod on the local newspaper or dog club--they will also be able to help and get the word out there. The world's going to have to vote with their wallets here--not only should people not buy pets from these stores, but they really shouldn't buy anything at all.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

I don't believe that you will ever stop puppies, of any breed, from being sold in pet stores. For some reason a lot of people seem to still equate this as the avenue to obtain a puppy.
Are all the puppies from "puppy mills"? No their not, but their pedrigre will be in question. 
Those that aren't from Puppy Mills are often the result of an indiscriminate breeding by amateurs, or "backyard breeders".
In your particular instance, the puppy was over priced at $1300.00. For that amount a puppy from proven field stock with multiple champions and dual champions on both sides. Bred and raised by name breeders in the Vizsla community, can be obtained. Had the pet shop more realistically priced the puppy, he would have sold earlier.
The rest though is simply neglect on the part of the pet shop, and can be reported to the local humane society.
From this point though, for you, look forward and not back with your new puppy.
Congrat's on the new addition to your home. He's a very lucky little guy.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> I don't believe that you will ever stop puppies, of any breed, from being sold in pet stores


Gunnr,
Here in California and surrounding states, we have thousands of pet supply stores. I have not seen one sell pups in over 15 years. I know California is nuts for the most part, but in no dogs or cats sold in pet stores, I am in agreement. Animal shelter dogs and cats are "for sale" almost every week at local pet stores.

But for the Vizsla to be protected, it has to have a community that will not accept this practice of pet stores selling pure bred dogs and cats. 

If customers don't know, or care what health issues the dogs they buy, then the whole idea of the hobby breeder is hurt. It costs A LOT of money to produce a quality litter of pups. Sounds like you know. The average healthy Vizsla from a quality hobby breeder will be north of one thousand dollars every time. In the Bay Area, more than that.

Buying a Vizsla because it is cheap does what?
Add defects in health, socialization, temperament that will destroy our robust breed. 

Pat and others that love this breed. Keep the pressure on the pet stores to stop the practice. They can make money by supplies, food and other items. They don't need to make money by promoting backyard or commercial breeders. They can be a reference guide to local hobby breeders.

Gunnr, four years ago I had no clue of much of what I have written. With study and conversations of the last few years, I have come to understand how once strong breeds become weak and then die out. A healthy, well-adjusted Vizsla is a wonderful pet and companion. A ill, bad-temperament Vizsla is 65 pounds of trouble to the buyers and to the pup that ends up in Rescue or the pound.

Dismounting soap box now and going for a long walk in the hills with Bailey and Chloe.

Rod
http://redbirddog.blogspot.com


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

Rod

If my post seems to indicate that I support the selling of dogs and cats via pet stores. I apologize for that. My own personal belief is that the selling of dogs and cats in pet shops should be abolished and against the law in all states. My personal philosophy concerning "show dogs" is very close behind this. Some breeds have been ruined and lost simply for a "look". Dogs aren't "fads".
I hate to be an advocate for more "fees and permits", but I really think that to produce animals for sale should bear a cost to keep the indiscriminate breeders out of the game. Simply having AKC papers should not be the only prerequisite to breed a dog.
The "best" that can be hoped for is that the puppies that are still sold in pet shops somehow find the best homes they can, until the practice is stopped.
In this case I still think this particular little guy won the lottery. 

Have fun with Bailey and Chloe. 
Some of the quail got out of the quail house this morning, and Gunnr's been on full alert. I'll have to get them back in tonight, or they'll drive her nuts for days.


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## kellygh (Oct 25, 2010)

We would LOVE quail in or out of the Q house! It will be close to fall for us. Pumpkin had to settle for the Hummingbird trapped in the garage today : Bummer


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Despicable, hope I never see one 
It could mean these dogs are becoming more popular and thus availble through different outlets. 

I wonder from where the pet store got that Vizsla? 
A breeder dropped one off? Random customer unable to care for the dog?


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

datacan said:


> Despicable, hope I never see one
> It could mean these dogs are becoming more popular and thus availble through different outlets.
> 
> I wonder from where the pet store got that Vizsla?
> A breeder dropped one off? Random customer unable to care for the dog?


 These dogs will sometimes come from "backyard breeders". They're not "puppy mills" per se, but folks that either see an opportunity to make a little $$$, or just thought it would be "fun" to let their dog have a litter and are now left with the puppies to get rid of.
Believe it or not, there are still people that are absolutley adamant that a female dog should produce at least one litter. prior to being spayed.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/08/promoting-vizsla-as-high-class-bird-dog.html

Pet stores and Vizslas don't mix. 

If anyone ever finds a Vizsla in a pet store, you can e-mail me through this forum and I will do something about it. There is a network of Vizsla owners around the world that do not want the breed weaked. 

Keep the breed strong. 
http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/07/purchasing-vizsla-so-it-doesnt-end-up.html

Do not support pet stores, internet sellers (that don't allow you to visit) or backyard breeders.

Comparison of backyard and hobby breeders:

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/comparison.html
Happy trials and trails,

Rod


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

AGREED!


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Long read but could I have been taken by the Animal Activists? Not sure. The only pet shop dog I ever purchased was a little Cocker Spaniel that was a puppy mill product back in 1987. Poor dog was dumb as a rock but had a sweet and gentle personality. He lived to a ripe old age of 15 with little health issues. Puppy mills still exist. They have just been driven underground. Good article.

*Where Have All The Pet Stores Gone?
*
by Jacquelyn Fogel

Appeared in Showsight Magazine, March 2014, Volume 22, #8

We have been duped. Dog breeders have been used by the Animal Activists in their war on domestic pets. About 25 years ago a small core of Animal Activists who are now in control of all the major national animal rights organizations forged a plan, and we unwittingly helped them out. They started a campaign to close down all pet stores that had live animals in them, knowing full well that the demand for the puppies in these facilities would remain high. Dog breeders helped them. We railed against the nasty pet stores and their supplies of unworthy dogs. We offered up our own well-bred puppies as alternatives, even though we could never meet the demand the public has for puppies. We thought we were taking the high road, and embraced the new animal rights-leaning shelters that wanted to shut down the pet stores. We even put statements into our “codes of ethics” that said we would never allow our puppies to be sold in a pet store. We felt holy. 

Never mind that these stores were usually independently owned by small, local business owners who fed their families on the profits from these stores. Never mind that most of the puppies were purchased locally from breeders in our surrounding communities. Never mind that these stores were all regulated locally and federally and at least in theory, inspected by USDA and local health departments. Never mind that these were all legal, profit-making, tax-paying businesses that bought supplies from local vendors and sold to local residents. Never mind that these business owners supported local service organizations and donated to local churches and charities. Never mind that the public still wanted to buy puppies and we hobby breeders were all but invisible to them as we guarded our precious bloodlines from falling into unscrupulous hands. We agreed with the animal activists that these puppies were unhealthy, and the owners of these stores should be punished and put out of business. 

So where does the public go to buy their puppies now? Pet ownership is at an all-time high, and many of us hobby breeders still have trouble selling our pure bred puppies for what they are actually worth. I’ll tell you where the public is getting their pets from. They are now going to the retail shelters and rescues to find their pets. The small, local breeders that supplied local pet stores are being replaced by commercial kennels far away and invisible. The poorly operated puppy farms are still breeding dogs, they have merely gone further underground. The transportation of puppies from huge kennels and shelters in the south and from places outside this country has ballooned into a multi-million dollar mega-business. Now here’s the real kicker. Most of these retailers of puppies now claim non-profit status. They don’t pay taxes to support their communities any more. They slap the title “rescue” onto what they are doing, and suddenly they areself-righteous saviors of poor mistreated animals rather than brokers and transporters of poorly manufactured products specifically bred to produce a profit. And the public who is “rescuing” these dogs feels holy. 

Follow the money. If you ever need to know why something is happening the way it is, and your common sense is telling you the logical signs just don’t add up, follow the money. By shifting the sales of pets from regulated, independent, tax-paying businesses to largely clandestine, non-profit suppliers the animal activists have brilliantly co-opted the very enemy we thought we were fighting against. Realistically all shelters should have been working to put themselves out of business – not the pet stores. They should have done such good work educating the public how to be responsible dog owners that over time there would no longer be a critical need for their services. Obviously that didn’t happen. Here in Wisconsin we recently built a $6.5 million facility that has to have semi-loads of dogs shipped in regularly to keep it stocked. And they can turn-around (sell the entire inventory)their product in about 48 hours. That certainly makes them enough cash to keep the doors open and the lights on. And they don’t pay taxes.
How about this overwhelming push to spay and neuter all dogs? 

Wow! What a money maker that has become! Now a local individual or their neighbors and friends cannot morally create their own pets because it is unethical to keep their dogs intact. They have to go back to the retail shelter stores to purchase another one. The animal activists have even co-opted the veterinary community into believing that all pets should be spayed and neutered, when, in fact, there is no clinical evidence to support that this is best for every animal. Just now some studies are coming out that say, in fact, the opposite is true. I don’t know why the veterinary community has allowed themselves to be so coopted, unless I follow the money. As my own vet points out, she would be out of business tomorrow if all of the mixed breeds were as healthy as people claim they are. Common sense should be telling us the same thing. If heterogeneity was the answer to perfect health, then humans would be the healthiest species on the face of the planet. And we are not. Genetics work pretty much the same across species. 

Does anyone think outside the propaganda anymore? I ask people regularly when they last saw a stray dog in their neighborhood. In northern states it is rare. If a dog is found loose, more often than not, it is a runaway not a stray. Most of the dogs in shelters are surrenders, not strays. And who is surrendering those dogs? Could it be the same population of people who wanted to rescue the ill-tempered, unhealthy puppies they saw in shelters? Everyone wants to be a savior – until it gets expensive, dangerous or just too hard. Then they return the untrained, older dog that now has even more serious issues to a shelter that re-sells it to someone else. When I get a puppy back as an older dog, I usually place the dog in a new home for nothing. And I have to spend time and advertising money screening the new potential owners. The revolving door of sell, surrender, re-sell can become quite profitable if a shelter gets the same amount of money each time they sell the same dog.

This is how far out-of-whack things have gotten in this country. Some time ago I was nominated by a member in one of my national breed clubs to receive a breeder of the year award. The person who actually won the award is a fine breeder in the UK and she does a great job with her dogs. But the primary reason I was eliminated as a contender for the breeder of the year award was because I do not support “rescue,” and had actually written articles about what mixed-breed rescue has become in this country. Silly me. I thought the award was about being a breeder. My dogs don’t go into rescue programs because I take them back or rehome them if at any point in their lives they cannot be kept by their owners. I have started a non-profit, Keep Your Pets, Inc, dedicated to keeping families in crisis together with their pets, but that is not good enough. Apparently it is now not even politically correct for breeders to disparage the concept of rescue as it has evolved in this country. I don’t rescue dogs; I breed and sell them, and sometimes rehome them. And there is nothing wrong with that model.



I am a business owner in a Capitalist, free-market economy. My primary business is boarding and grooming pets, but I also sell well-bred puppies. And I spend a lot of money to produce and market those puppies. I don’t get any tax breaks. I don’t get free dog food or free veterinary care. I don’t ask for my supplies to be donated, I purchase them from local vendors. It’s a good model, and it works for all products, not just automobiles and refrigerators. We get so caught up in the “give a puppy a good home” sob stories that we forget that our dogs are a product, too. I adore my dogs. My children often said I loved the dogs more than I loved them (totally untrue). But it does take a lot of time, wisdom and money to produce healthy, well-socialized purebred puppies. We should not feel guilty about wanting to be compensated for the time it takes us to produce a superior product. By refusing to use the language of commerce to talk about pets, we have somehow placed them in a different logical spot in our brain.

The current suppliers and sellers of puppies are not fooled. They are very clear about the economics of producing, transporting and selling millions of poorly bred and cheaply produced dogs to unwitting customers for a lot of money. They use the language of adoption and rescue, but they follow the economics of a free enterprise, Capitalist system. They may call themselves “non-profit”, but they are making millions of dollars from the distribution and sales of these puppies. Only we hobby breeders have been foolish enough to let our emotional ties to our dogs get in the way of understanding this economic model. 

It’s all about supply and demand – and ultimately the demise of domestic pet ownership. Now that shelters and rescues are the last retail places to produce and sell pets, how easy will it be for them to suddenly “expose” the source of all their dogs as nasty puppy farms. Is it too far a stretch to then imagine that they will try to manipulate the emotions they have already sensitized to simply quit demanding these miserable creatures? How better to put someone out of business than to quit demanding their product? Right now, in the animal activist world, it is immoral to own a well-bred purebred, or an unspayed or unneutered dog. If the next step is to say it is immoral to own a dog produced by a puppy farm, they are dangerously close to making all pet ownership immoral. If you don’t think this is the real agenda, then you just are not paying attention.



Personally, I don’t think people will allow themselves to be so completely manipulated by these animal activist evangelists. The general public still loves to own a dog even if they now prefer to call it an adoption. But 15 years ago I would not have foreseen a population that preferred to “rescue” a dog rather than buy one from a good breeder if they could afford it. I also did not see the demise of the local for-profit retail pet stores being replaced by non-profit retail shelters. That change happened much faster than I thought it could. Where have all the retail pet stores gone? We helped to put them out of business, never stopping to realize that we were the next targets in a well-planned campaign to end all pet ownership. It’s time for dog breeders to become activists in support of all people who want to legally breed and work with animals. The activists are picking us off one group at a time. Yesterday the pet stores and circuses, today the Carriage Horses and pig farms, tomorrow the hobby breeders, and the day after that, all breeders of all animals. It’s time to choose sides and get active. There is more to aspire to than the next purple ribbon – a way of life is at stake.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Rod
Do-gooders will always try to make laws to protect something, others will use the loopholes to their advantage.
The problem exists because you can't force the public to do their homework, and be a informed buyer. I don't like the article because it lumps all rescues, and pet stores together.
That's like lumping all breeders together.
There will always be the good, the bad ,and the ugly.
You can't protect the breed as a whole, but some can protect a bloodline.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> This is how far out-of-whack things have gotten in this country. Some time ago I was nominated by a member in one of my national breed clubs to receive a breeder of the year award. The person who actually won the award is a fine breeder in the UK and she does a great job with her dogs. But the primary reason I was eliminated as a contender for the breeder of the year award was because I do not support “rescue,” and had actually written articles about what mixed-breed rescue has become in this country. Silly me. I thought the award was about being a breeder. My dogs don’t go into rescue programs because I take them back or rehome them if at any point in their lives they cannot be kept by their owners. I have started a non-profit, Keep Your Pets, Inc, dedicated to keeping families in crisis together with their pets, but that is not good enough. Apparently it is now not even politically correct for breeders to disparage the concept of rescue as it has evolved in this country. I don’t rescue dogs; I breed and sell them, and sometimes rehome them. And there is nothing wrong with that model.


If breeders or pet stores took back dogs, as good breeders do, then the need for "rescue" would be massively reduced. The author in my opinion was stating the direction the Animal Activists are taking us mentally down is the wrong road, and she sees them succeeding. With that I agree. 

Rod


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

> If breeders or pet stores took back dogs, as good breeders do, then the need for "rescue" would be massively reduced.


I whole heartedly agree.
What your not looking at is the I want it now people, or the ones that will promise a breeder the moon to get their hands on one of their pups. When things don't work out they again look for the easy option. Its not contact the breeder (that they lied to) and fly the dog back.
My point is good breeders do not breed the way they do because of laws. They have a set of standers and morals, that they live by.
All these new laws do is punish the law abiding citizens.
The others find a way to stay in business.
Whatever happen to just using your common sense?


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

TexasRed said:


> > If breeders or pet stores took back dogs, as good breeders do, then the need for "rescue" would be massively reduced.
> 
> 
> I whole heartedly agree.
> ...


To be honest, the reason that responsible breeders take back dogs is because they are responsible breeders and want to do right by the dog. Pet stores, or the like are in it solely for the almighty dollar. So, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that either the dogs that they would be taken back would either end up at a shelter, and thus, in rescue, or in the "boneyard" out back. They have neither the desire, or resources to take back a dog that they sold to make money. 
Think about the volume of dogs that go out through pet stores. There is no way they could take them back. 
But it's nice to think about. 

Unfortunately, the new laws that are written do punish the ones that follow the law. It's extremely difficult to shut down a place. 

The place we pulled two pups from came from a high volume puppy mill. They sell lots and lots of puppies to pet stores. Want to check out where your puppy is coming from? 

Here you go. 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/424+6th+Rd/@39.652623,-97.3085087,74m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x87bd6462222ea43f:0x7d294650f64cb733

If you click on the link, you'll see a map image of the place. Notice the buildings where there is PVC piping running to cess pools. That's so it can be hosed out and run into the pools easier. That's because of the volume. They have been repeatedly cited by the USDA and are inspected by the USDA.
They are legal. In 3/8/2012, they had 450 adults and 180 puppies. 
This is where your puppy mill puppies come from. 

To me, personally, I see websites and places advertising themselves as USDA approved. 
Much like this place. 

http://www.bandskennels.com/VIZSLA_PUPPIES_FOR_SALE.html

HUGE red flag for me. If I am going to a place that has to be inspected by the USDA, it's a high volume place. Just because that it's USDA inspected doesn't mean a thing for me as the conditions can still be absolutely deplorable. Do a google search and see what passes USDA. It's terrible. Think about it. Do you see responsible breeders posting that they are USDA inspected? Somewhere you would want to see your next dog come from? 

As an aside, I'm pretty sure that Hadley comes from the kennel I listed. 

The reality of this is, that the best and easiest way to shut these places down is to be educated and knowledgeable. Don't buy from there. It's terrible that the pups that they are selling are in such crappy conditions, but by purchasing them, you are only adding fuel to the fire. It's unfortunate but by purchasing dogs from them, even to save them, can make things worse for future generations of dogs.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

V-John,
I was hoping for you to join the discussion. The overhead Goggle picture shows a puppy factory. Ugly to see. But there are buyers for these cheap "dogs" that suppress the prices of the quality dogs of a highly ethical and moral breeder. 
Education is the key. Propaganda is an education of sorts. I'm having a hard time with this, as I am a lover of the *free-market* system and *ethical *business practices.

I see the writing on the wall. "All breeding is bad" "Mutts Rule". 

The long article that Ms. Fogel wrote was well written and had passion for what she does. She should get top dollar for her superior dogs that are produced from love and KNOWLEDGE.


*Don't buy cheap or fast*. Keep those two things in mind and your chances of a healthy happy pup increase 100 fold.

RBD


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

There is a lady in my town selling Vizslas. Her slogan/ mission statement is "help me pay for college." Her dogs are huge, have white all over them out of AKC standard, and no hip/ eye etc testing. I ran into someone who had one this weekend and spent 30 min telling him why a 9 week puppy should not be at a dog beach, how to cut nails as his poor pup's nails were already curving under themselves, ear cleaning, vaccinations etc etc etc. He was clueless, just picked up puppy from the "breeder." He seemed a little stressed after talking to me, as if he had no idea what he was getting into when he saw Miles and Chase racing around the beach and diving into the water. 

Can places like these be stopped?


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

MilesMom,

HVF helps. It is easy to find with a search. Right now 100 people are "visiting" or lurking. 

When you write things like this it will help those that read it. We have to keep it real.

We can use the internet for knowledge. That's what it was designed to do. 

At least the lady in your town is not doing it to feed a drug habit. :-\

To all the great breeders out there! I tip my hat to your dedication and fortitude.

RBD


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## Laika (Mar 3, 2013)

redbirddog said:


> The activists are picking us off one group at a time. Yesterday the pet stores and circuses, today the Carriage Horses and pig farms, tomorrow the hobby breeders, and the day after that, all breeders of all animals. It’s time to choose sides and get active.


An interesting read, but it feels a little off base. Lumping pig farms (while thankfully not all are equal, the majority are atrocious), and circus animals in with honest dog breeders is ridiculous (she forgot to mention beef producers). Sorry, but yes, I am one of those animal "activists" she so condemns in her rant of an article. The difference between the two could not be greater, and she fails to mention that many shelters beg for dogs to be brought in because shelters nearby are simply killing them off because they don't do a good enough jobs of getting the dogs new homes. The author drastically trivialized rescue shelters importance for reasons I am unsure of, other than she had a run in with PETA, and felt the need to vent (understandable).

I know a few amazing rescue shelters; the work they do is phenomenal, and they are not making bank like Fogel suggests they are.

She doesn't back up her spay/neuter argument, or any arguments with facts, or references. I agree with her on many of her points, just not all of them. Some are accurate, and some are way off base.

Ugh, seriously, there is so much about this article I find to be ridiculous, I better just stop now. The two things I agree with: Follow the money, and no one thinks outside the propaganda. 

It comes down to very few people seriously think about the commitment of adding a pet to the family, wanting the latest celebrity craze, and we have become a society where personal responsibility has become passe--that is why shelters have the dog populations they have, and puppy mills still thrive.

Sincerely,
A Vegan who feeds his non-spayed female Vizsla a raw diet.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

A simple answer to a Very complex ? - how do you protect the Vizsla breed - 1 puppy at a TIME !!!!!!! V educated - Let your Voice V heard - STAND up and V counted - do nothing - NOTHING gets done !!!!!!!!! this forum STANDS 4 the best of the breed !!!!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Laika
The reason its lumped in together is because groups like Humane society and PETA. They use their monies to push changes in the laws on all of the above and more concerning animals. So while we are talking about dogs, they have a broader scope in mind.

I still go back to this is a consumer problem.
Spend your money wisely, even when donating to charities.


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## Eddiemoto (May 4, 2013)

I wish I would have read this topic earlier. I got a snide remark from a coworker this morning when she found out I didn't go to a rescue for a puppy.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Intellectual Property removed by Author.


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

This is a little mean... but I have asked people who have lectured me about having a bred dog if they had their own children or adopted them as one could make the argument there are a lot of children who also need good homes... usually quiets them down.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Oh, I don't know. I don't think this guy is "junk".... Even though he had a rough start... I've shot quite a few birds over him and am proud of how far he has come. 



If someone would make a snide remark about where I get my dogs, I'd simply tell them it's non of their **** business! 

Believe me, I am absolutely about buying the most well-bred pup I can, for what I do. I understand what it is to try and achieve my goals for generations down the line. But at the same time, I also probably will always have a rescue around. They just seem to appreciate life that much more, after much of the crap some of these dogs have been through. But I digress. 

The reality is, though that we need to take things into moderation. Laika makes some very valid points. A lot of the shelters and such are getting lumped together. As well as a lot of the rescues. That is why it is so key to do your own research. With the internet at hand, this is pretty easy to do, and it's a bit shocking at how little effort some people make. 

Different people adopt from rescue for different reasons. We just had a meeting between our rescue members and discussing the possibility of raising our rates 6% or so. Some were worried that it may cut down on people looking to adopt. Which may be the case. But with the rising costs of vetting and transport and such, it may be a necessary evil. People forget that it's pretty tough to find a purebred dog that has been vetted, and house broke and know basic commands... For the price we ask. 
But the flip side, is we have people who want to come to us simply for a cheap dog. One guy wrote on his application, when asked "Why do you want to adopt a dog from rescue?" "I don't want to spend 1500 dollars on a dog. "

It seems, that with dogs, like anything else, the dollar is the bottom line. Money, unfortunately, makes the world go 'round. So, how do you stop people from breeding to raise college money, or the puppy mills? Don't buy from them. Plain and simple. When the money dries up, then so does the breeding. Unfortunately, though, I don't know that it will happen. As RBD says, unfortunately there is a market for these types of dogs. So, then, ethics come into play. Well, unfortunately, ethics get a bit distorted when money comes into play. 

So, it goes back to education and money. Hopefully people come back to that and do some research. We can't legislate for every shelter... Nor can we legislate for every rescue. So, that leaves it up to you to do your own research.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I know Ken has helped with some rescue dogs, and don't think he was downing the real rescues.
Just more along the lines of If told a snide remark, answer back with a snide remark.
I personal don't care if people buy, or rescue their dogs.
It is still, and should be a personal preference.
It would be nice if everyone did their homework, and got what they thought they were paying for.


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## jjohnson (Nov 9, 2011)

This is totally "a consumer problem". As long as there is demand for dogs, they will be sold by "breeders" for money, by pet stores, etc. ( I live in the Seattle area though, and I haven't seen a puppy in a pet store, ever). 

The problem is that people treat dogs as commodities and "go through them" like they would anything else. They get sick of them, they get rid of them, they buy new ones. It's what creates this ongoing demand for puppies and what results in millions of dogs and cats being put down in shelters every year. For example, we have some friends who had three cats and a dog. Then had a baby, and "got rid" of two of the cats (the cats were "trying to hurt" the baby- YEAH RIGHT!). They gave the cats to the shelter, who most likely put them down (something like 80% of shelter cats are put down). Then, they have a second baby, and decide it is a good idea to get ANOTHER puppy. A big German Shepard. And I KNOW it is just a matter of time before they "don't have time" for this dog, and it goes to the shelter too. Meanwhile, my brother and sister in law have had two dogs for like 10 years - and now that they've had a baby, they want to give them away! Then, I'm sure once their daughter is older, she'll want a dog, and they'll go buy a new puppy. 

It's so terrible and sad, and I just don't understand it. But this is exactly why there continues to be this circular demand. It absolutely infuriates me. But there's really nothing that can be done unless you can make people be less idiotic somehow. Sorry for the rant, but I recently found out that my in-laws are "giving away" their two dogs that they have had for a long, long time, and it makes me sooo mad. These are smart, wealthy, successful people who have absolutely no excuse except that they are lazy and tired of taking care of them.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

TexasRed said:


> I know Ken has helped with some rescue dogs, and don't think he was downing the real rescues.
> Just more along the lines of If told a snide remark, answer back with a snide remark.
> I personal don't care if people buy, or rescue their dogs.
> It is still, and should be a personal preference.
> It would be nice if everyone did their homework, and got what they thought they were paying for.


That's the beautiful thing about the internet and message boards. It's all sorts of open to misinterpretation. 

I got into all sorts of "Discussions" with people on the "Vizsla" facebook page. I believe it was a discussion on "mixed breeds". It goes along with this discussion in that people are trying to breed crosses simply to make a new "designer" breed and make some cash. IE, the Labradoodle, Yorkiepoo, etc.etc. I can't understand why people would buy these sorts of "mutts" (which is what they are). I see guys doing it in the hunting breeds too. Drives me crazy, especially with the diverse amount of hunting dogs out there. The sad thing is that they make money doing it, and as a result, will continue to do it. 
I also like the "mixed breeds are healthier" argument. The reality is, that it falls upon the breeder to make sound conscience decisions about what to breed. But with the almighty dollar at hand, they don't as it cuts into their bottom dollar.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Intellectual Property removed by Author.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Ken, you are right. They are there for a reason. But in the all the dogs I've fostered, and I'm guessing 30-40 at least, not a one of them were there because of health reasons. None were epileptic, or had any severe allergies or anything like that. One had hips that were extremely bad...... Such that we almost had to put him down because we didn't know if he could be adopted. However, someone stepped up, and adopted him. He was/is a sweetheart of a dog. Radar, my dog, probably has a bad hip. We've had him checked. But it doesn't prevent him from hunting all day. But I can see it starting to limit him a little bit. But he's pain free. 
I'm guessing a majority of them that come in are as a result of the owner. Not all of the blame can be put upon the temperament of the dog. Except in extreme cases. Many of the people who buy these dogs or end up with these dogs simply do not know what they are getting into. 
For example, there is a possibility that this next dog we are going to foster is a behavioral/temperament issue. We may not be able to rehabilitate her. But we are going to try. This is her last shot, it seems. But in speaking with the owner, it sounds like they have a little bit of a combination of both. In over their heads, and possibly bad breeding. Who knows what will happen. 

Of course, everyone can say this and that about how their rescues worked out, and how others haven't. 
And yes, they are there for a reason. But, me, I'm willing to put more faith in the dog, and less in the breeder and the humans that they have had the misfortunate to be owned by. Dogs I've fostered have proved me right, more often then they have proved me wrong. 

Edit- One thing about rescues, is that we have to look at liability. If we they are such a bad temperament case that they can't be adopted out, well, we have to put them down. It just stinks, but the one thing you learn quick is that "you can't save them all."


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Well, guess I was the one that misinterpreted.
I don't think anyone should flame you for being honest, and straight forward. 
My nephew also helps with some rescues.
Some turned out to be good companion dogs , after evaluation and some training.
Some had medical (hip) problems to deal with.
Then there was the ones that could never be adopted out due to(temperament)hard wiring issues.

He has now limited himself to only helping certain rescues.
The ones that try and give honest evaluations he helps. The ones that were not so up front in the past, he doesn't.


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