# Don't Discipline a Growl - Then what?!



## PensnCrows (Nov 9, 2013)

Thanks in advance for any replies. I have a great 2 year old male but this is is my first Vizsla. Growing up I had golden retrievers. There is a definite temperament difference. I prefer the Vizsla, bar one caveat.

Right or wrong (please do not judge me poorly) when a golden retriever would act up, it was much easier to correct. Perhaps a newspaper on the hind end or a stern talking to and they would roll over and give up. Not so with my V. 

Any physical discipline seems to only exacerbate the problem. He does not 'give' or cower. This is fine because I do not want a dog with his tail between his legs every time I walk into the room. 'No' usually works if I use a stern enough voice. 

The problem is that there are times when Verbal commands do not seem enough. For example, he is up late and falls asleep downstairs. When I give the command 'crate' he ignores me. If i try to lift him or steer him, he will growl. If I push the issue when he is in one of these moods, he will snap. Not cool. We have learned that at times he just needs a few minutes to wake up and a little sweet talk, then he will go on his own accord. Still - I don't like the growling.

Why I am posting this is that now we live in an area where there are many deer ticks and even though we use the monthly oils, he needs inspected. He will 'roll over' but if anything needs removed I get the warning growl. Tonight he got into a bees nest and his lip was swollen. He snapped at me (after a warning growl) when I tried to put on ointment. I wanted to smack his behind but knew that it may dissuade the warning in the future. Plus he new he did a bad thing - you could see it in his eyes. So I just sent him into his crate.

I would love advice on how to get him to relax and not even escalate to the growling stage. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

You're right, they're not Goldens. Thankfully....

I think part of the problem might be your frame of reference developed with the Goldens, and specifically your use of physical punishment to achieve control. Everything we know about dogs in general is that they do not respond well to physical punishment, and actually you risk having that back fire and the dog becomes either much more aggressive or submissively timid. So, whatever success you might have had with physical punishment with the Goldens was probably a fluke, even if it was more than one. Different breeds respond differently to different forms of discipline, but V's are highly intelligent and extremely sensitive, and frankly take it as a personal affront if you treat them as less, they require and respond best to respect.

So, knowing your boy, if he doesn't like to be moved when he's asleep..and who does?...you can either do what you're now doing and gently wake him and let him get his bearings...or you can use your understanding of his reaction and avoid it altogether by either watching him and crating him as he starts to nod off..or maybe even figuring out what time this typically occurs and making it his bed time.

Likewise, if he doesn't like to have things pulled off his body...and who does?....you can pair the tick inspection with a piece of raw hide or a cookie or toy, try to make it a little bit more tolerable. V's are very demonstrative, they let you know every thought and feeling they have the moment they experience it...and if he's uncomfortable or anxious, he will. You can stop for a moment until he's a bit more tolerant, you can make a joke of it with him (V's typically have great senses of humor), you can tell him to stop....but you should always listen to him, at least when his complaints seem serious.

In the end, a relationship with a Vizsla is a two way street, they give what they get, you train them, and they train you..and if you want him to listen to you, hes going to expect the same. That might be a bit different than the Golden experience, but well worth it.


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## Pecan_and_BB (Jun 15, 2015)

My wife and I are with our first V and had fox and walker hounds previously. The Vs are similar with certain traits as they are all hounds, but our V communicates with us in a much more animated way when interacting with my wife and I. She is more intelligent than they were as well.

Our V has had ear troubles where her ears build up wax and combined with the fact she loves the water makes for a recipe of ear infections. She hasn't had an ear infection yet but that is because I clean her ears weekly. Just like any dog, anything intrusive like that will warrant a rebellious reaction from them. What I can suggest is to exercise patience and guidance for your V. They are very smart, so they can figure stuff out on their own with a little guidance from you; and once they figure it out for themselves, no need for a reward since they are smart enough to understand the benefits of their actions.

ie: ear cleaning took me 3 months of once a week cleanings with multiple stages of behaviour to get to where we are now where she sits calmly and quietly with a few grunts. All stages on my end were completed by simply waiting her out until she gave up and let me clean them where if I made a motion to do something and she displayed she wasn't ready, I would simply stop what I was doing and go back to something she would let me do (ie: not ready for solution in her ear, back to wiping the outer area damp cotton or cloth and then try the solution motion again).

here are the stages of her behaviour that I observed through the process:

stage 1: happy, any attention is good attention.
stage 2: wth are you doing, this isn't like regular affection DO NOT WANT
stage 3: I see that bottle of cleaner in your hand, time to find Mom for protection and if you put that thing near my ear, I'm going to flail and fight you.
stage 4: I see that bottle of cleaner but why don't you open it right away, I guess it's safe. NOW YOU'RE TAKING THE CAP OFF...MMMMOOOMMMMMM! I'm still gonna fight you but I see you aren't going to leave me alone until we get this over with.
stage 5: I see that cap come off and I roo roo at you because I know what's coming. I'm going to sit here in protest and bury my head under these blankets and pillows so you can't do it.
stage 6: I see that cap come off and I roo roo at you, but I now have figured out that if I let you do this, you are finished quicker and my ears feel much better after you are done so let's get it over with.

Once stage 6 hit, it became pretty easy and now it's a roo or two when she sees the cap come off and then she just lies down and takes it. Nails are still a work in progress 

As for your V snapping or growling, I would suggest not to give up what you are attempting to achieve once he does this as it could reinforce in your dog that any unwanted action that you attempt, you will stop once he snaps. I think you are on the right track on how you are handling the sleep/crate time with patience and if there is some end of day affection waiting for him once he gets in his crate, he'll learn on his own the benefit of waking up and going to his crate when you want him to. As far as the bee sting or attempting to help him when he's hurt himself, I would suggest starting with his favourite way to be pet from you, then work your way to his head, touch his muzzle where it isn't stung, let him sniff the ointment, then attempt to put it on and if he growls or snaps, then go back a step or two where you touch his muzzle where it isn't stung, let him sniff the ointment again and try to apply it again.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

With dogs like him, I guess I do things a little different. My main goal is to build a good working relationship with the dog. I get them to do things my way by doing lots of games, and obedience throughout the day. With the couch I would work on Up, and Off when he is alert. Lots of praise for doing it right. We work on walking at heel, and laying at my feet, and standing at whoa until released. You can add other games to it if you want to, just make sure you have a fun, happy time when the training session is over. They get in a routine of following direction, and don't put up as much of a fight. I have one that not very nice when woken, but this has worked with him 99% of the time. The 1% that he tries to push it, I just make a big loop with his lead. Loop it over his head without getting my hands close. Tap the lead and tell him Off, and he gets down without a fight.
As far as the ticks go, I would put a Preventic collar on him. It keeps the deer ticks off for 3 months. During that time slowly get him accustomed to being handled in short sessions. You can have someone giving him a treat, or just rubbing him in his favorite spot. Keep it short and slowly add time to it as he becomes more comfortable. Some dogs never deal very well with things that cause them pain, and their first reaction is to lash out at who is causing the pain. If I can't get a dog past it, I will muzzle them in some situations like shots at the vets.


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## PensnCrows (Nov 9, 2013)

You both have really good advice. I appreciate your insight and will put into practice some of the techniques you mentioned. We do have a great dog. This is simply fine tuning behavior at this stage.

I thought about it all day at work today - what is the underlying issue with me. This is what I need advice on. I would love the situation where the dog would never even think to growl or snap at me - the owner. I do not think it is a machismo issue. Is this an unrealistc expectation? Is there a way to create an 'i'm the boss and you respect me unconditionally' attitude without being abusive or breaking the dog's spirit? 

I am interpreting the growling - in any situation - as a challenge to authority. That is the niche of my brain that needs counsel. Be patient with me. 

You have given great advice. I am following the suggestions.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

> Is this an unrealistc expectation? Is there a way to create an 'i'm the boss and you respect me unconditionally' attitude without being abusive or breaking the dog's spirit?


Its about building trust, and a working bond.
You would never want to break a dogs spirit, or abuse them.
Unconditional can be a tough one for some dogs. 


I have 2 Vs that I could crawl in the crate with them while they are sleeping. Hug, kiss, and roll them around. My other V would bite anyone trying to enter his crate while sleeping, he might even do it if awake. I would call him out of his crate, and then love on him. There is no one size fits all with these dogs. You have to put in the work, before you can know what the dogs limits will be.


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## riley455 (Aug 27, 2011)

PensnCrows said:


> You both have really good advice. I appreciate your insight and will put into practice some of the techniques you mentioned. We do have a great dog. This is simply fine tuning behavior at this stage.
> 
> I thought about it all day at work today - what is the underlying issue with me. This is what I need advice on. I would love the situation where the dog would never even think to growl or snap at me - the owner. I do not think it is a machismo issue. Is this an unrealistc expectation? Is there a way to create an 'i'm the boss and you respect me unconditionally' attitude without being abusive or breaking the dog's spirit?
> 
> ...


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## riley455 (Aug 27, 2011)

Riley455 said:


> PensnCrows said:
> 
> 
> > You both have really good advice. I appreciate your insight and will put into practice some of the techniques you mentioned. We do have a great dog. This is simply fine tuning behavior at this stage.
> ...


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

PensnCrows said:


> You both have really good advice. I appreciate your insight and will put into practice some of the techniques you mentioned. We do have a great dog. This is simply fine tuning behavior at this stage.
> 
> I thought about it all day at work today - what is the underlying issue with me. This is what I need advice on. I would love the situation where the dog would never even think to growl or snap at me - the owner. I do not think it is a machismo issue. Is this an unrealistc expectation? Is there a way to create an 'i'm the boss and you respect me unconditionally' attitude without being abusive or breaking the dog's spirit?
> 
> ...


Yes, I think you're being unrealistic with your expectations, and yes, I think you're misinterpreting his behavior as "Challenging". And yes, I'm patient with you, this is hard stuff.

I think your task..and it's a hard one...is to not use your prior experiences with other dogs and compare this dog's behavior with their's..and when you see differences, judge them in some pathological or very personal way. I know it's human nature to do that, but what often results is misinterpretation, it;s more about our reaction than their intentions. Rather, you should try to just be aware of the differences and go no further..use that awareness to adjust your behavior to avoid those reactions. V ownership really is far more interactive that Golden ownership, it's a partnership.

Every dog "speaks" to us differently, and it's always, always best for us to learn that language. Let me go back to the sleeping situation... if your baby doesn't like to be moved when he's asleep, don't. If you do, be prepared for him to complain or otherwise let you know how he feels about that. But, try not to misinterpret it as "Disrespectful" of your authority, b/c in all probability it's not that. Rather, he just doesn't like to be disturbed when he's asleep. His respect for you is determined by many other things, none of which you're mentioning, so I assume the moaning and growling and other vocalizations are specific to his just not liking whatever it is you might be doing at that moment. Use your ongoing awareness of those things and just avoid doing them.


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

PensnCrows said:


> ... Is there a way to create an 'i'm the boss and you respect me unconditionally' attitude without being abusive or breaking the dog's spirit?
> ...


I think that when you see yourself as "the owner" and "the boss" it will be less productive that if you see the two of you as companions. Unconditional respect is a master-slave thing that comes through a purchase - a V's respect has to be earned. And as far as respect goes, it needs to be mutual - he needs your respect too.

So an owner/master would order his dog/possession to get in the crate, but you would ask a companion to do it. The words might be "Get in the crate" in both cases, but the attitude is different. I often give my guys a "Thank you" when they do what I want. I'm sure they don't know what the words mean, but I think that they get a sense of my respect from it.

You know that V's are sensitive and a consequence of that is that they are easily made afraid. A strong hand on a V can create fear, but that is not respect, although some might mistake it as such.

Bob


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## PensnCrows (Nov 9, 2013)

This is a lot of good advice. After wrapping all these things up together this is the conclusion I came to tonight. For my dog, and my situation.

Tonight I tried to clean his wound on his lip again. He respectfully lay down when I told him to. He rolled right over on command. When he saw the anabiotic on my finger he started to bristle. He showed his teeth a little bit at me, and I waited. Then I pet him a little bit and tried again. It took about 10 times. He was never thrilled. But gradually I was to dab the medicine on without him snarling at me.

So I think I'll leave your advice is correct. My conclusion is, that in my situation, as long as I don't rush the issue I can accomplish whatever I need to accomplish with the dog without him feeling uncomfortable and growling. In my case the lesson learned is that patience is the key. If I try to force the issue it only makes it worse. It can be de-escalated and that neutral takes a little time.


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

Good for you!

Let me add that he sounds like he's in pain, and the antibiotic..although we know that's helpful..actually involves some discomfort when you apply it, you're touching a sensitive wound. That's not dominance, it's pain and when a dog is in pain, they're much more likely to vocalize or even snap. But that's out of fear and pain, it's not a dominance display.


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## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

Sounds good. To help you with your lesson learned, you might try explaining to your V what you are doing and why for each step. If you can, use the same words each time so the rhythm of your speech becomes part of the routine (either for waking up or getting medicine or any other less than desirable task).

Besides the helpful fact that I really believe dogs know more words than we think, he will probably be able to tell from your tone that you are going to make something better. Additionally, it will help you focus on him as you are talking to him and the explanations will naturally slow all of your actions.

Good luck!


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