# bit my 9 month old son



## MamaSiano25 (Jul 13, 2015)

Hi there! My husband and I have Vizslas, 1 female thats 7 years old and a male that is 2.5 years old. 
9 months ago our son was born and both our dogs have not had a problem with him. They lick his face, lay next to him and hover near his high chair when he eats waiting for him to hand them bits of his snacks. 
THE PROBLEM: Early last week our male growled at my son when he crawled near him, my son crawling over to him is not anything out of the ordinary, but this time he growled at him. I ran over grabbed my son and told my male no we don't growl at the baby. 
Well, yesterday he was sleeping in the sun by the back door and my son was looking out the window and pulled him self up, lost his balance a fell back on my male vizsla and this time he bit my son without any warning leaving a large gash above my sons left eye. We rushed him to urgent care and lucky my son didn't need stitches. 
Ever since our male bit our son we have been on edge. I refuse to put me son on the floor to play and I myself am scared to be near him. 
Any advice on how to handle the situation and make sure it doesn't happen again is very much appreciated! 
We would hate to give up our male, but if we can't find a way to make sure it doesn't happen again we will have no choice!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

First I'm very sorry this happened to your baby.
Next is you need to make sure your young son is protected. Anytime I put the baby down to crawl, I would crate the dog first in a separate room, so he couldn't crawl up to the crate. 
Has your dog been around a lot of young kids, or is this new to him?


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## MamaSiano25 (Jul 13, 2015)

Thank you!
our dog has been around a number of young children and babies since we got him. Before our son was born we crated him until he was fully house trained. Do you think it would be smart to bring back the crate as learning/teaching tool for our young Dog? We have also tossed around the idea of bringing in a obedience trainer. 
Has your dog ever suggested aggression of any kind toward your child?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Your sons safety has to be your first priority.
So the question you need to been asking yourself "Can I keep my son safe, while still providing a good home for this dog? "
The crate would not be a learning/teaching tool, it would be used so your son could safely play on the floor. But you don't want the majority of your dogs life to be spent in the crate. So you would need to be able to balance your time with your son, and the dog also getting attention separately.
While its always good for a dog to learn obedience, your issue is more complicated.



> Has your dog ever suggested aggression of any kind toward your child?


While one of my dogs can be aggressive, he has never been given the opportunity to be loose with a baby.


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## lilyloo (Jun 20, 2012)

Likely your dog was startled since it was sleeping. The previous incident I can't really explain. I would do a quick vet check to make sure that your V doesn't have any illness you aren't aware of. He could be hurting and be on edge. 

Other than that, all of what TexasRed mentioned was spot on.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I agree you have a good percentage of dogs that will not bite while awake, can bite when startled while sleeping.
The growl was to let the baby know to back off. The dog has no way of knowing that a baby cannot read the body language, and vocal (growl) noise he is saying. Its hard for us grownups to sometimes read a dogs body language before a growl/bite, a child doesn't stand a chance reading it. Its up to the adults in the household to keep all dog and kid interactions safe. If we fail, kids get bitten, and dogs get put down. Your dog may, or may not be okay with your son as he gets older. There is just no way to see into the future. 
You either work out a plan where both can live happy, and safely, or talk to one of your local vizsla rescues.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

We live with our granddaughters in our house. The dogs live downstairs behind two child gates and only get to interact with the girls when we are right there supervising. 
Bailey growled at our 2 year old when she crawled into his crate. 
I just never trust my dogs with young children even though I think I know them well, an animal is still that.

Keep them separated as much as possible at this age is my only real suggestion. 

You'll all live through this and one day your son will be able to be a dog trainer because you started him out very young understanding dogs. 

Safety first, last and always. Good luck.
Rod


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

oh my, this is just terrible! Yes, V'sare very sensitive and don't like surprises, but this one is a bit out there. If it were me and I saw this, I would have given a correction that would leave a very lasting impression.

You need to keep your human baby safe, of course, but you also need to reintroduce them to each other in a far more successful way, supervising both. The sooner you can do that, the sooner both babies (and you!) will feel more confident in their overall ability to coexist. Just remember to supervise and make sure the outcome is positive, and if there's even a hint of anxiety or aggression from V, to offer either support or correction, respectively. But, the longer you wait, the longer you reinforce the least interaction for both of them.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Gingerling said:


> If it were me and I saw this, I would have given a correction that would leave a very lasting impression.


As difficult as it is, and primal instinct is to severely correct the dog, the outcome of a severe correction in this instance is highly likely to be inverse to what is desired. i.e. an escalation of aggressive/defensive behavior.

When a dog is in a defensive or aggressive mode (and the two are very similar in potential bite response) escalating with more aggression generally results in a higher anxiety, higher response in a future event. It is most important to understand the dog needs his space, just as the child needs a safe place to play. I understand the desire to have the dog and child be buddies, but not all dogs like small children, and as a living, thinking being they have that right. I cringe when I see Facebook pictures of tiny babies on top of the dog, while others Ooh and aww isn't that cute... I see a potential train wreck. It only takes an instant and ANY dog can bite under the right circumstances. This is not the dog's fault. 

If you are afraid of your dog, the best thing is to find him a new home. Your understandable anxiety will only exacerbate the issue. That anxiety is picked up by the dog, which makes him more on edge and unsure. That combination can not lead to a better behavioral outcome. The sooner the better, for you, the baby and the dog.

Good luck,
Ken

PS - If this post links to sales outlets it will be removed by author.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Very well said, Ken.


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## marathonman (Jan 15, 2013)

Just to add a few thoughts to what other people have said-

I would suggest parallel living with the dog and kid. What I mean by this is both the dogs and kid have their separate daily activities and routines and they do not cross over. A big part of this is not encouraging the kid to interact with the dog. (and starting early with talking about appropriate behavior around dogs) Don't discourage a dog from being interested/sniffing the kid if they are together (you don't want to have the dog draw a negative view response to the kid). If the dog comes and sniffs a hand, praise the dog and then redirect to something else such as a toy or game. 

If you encourage child/dog interactions early, the child is likely to be magnetized to the dog and want to always to go towards it. That can be real detrimental, as the dog will always know that this little unpredictable human without impulse control is always coming for it. 

I've seen way too many photos online where kids are posed or draped over a dog for that "cute photo". The dog is obviously super stressed (lip licking, whale eyes, looking away, drawn face, rigid body posture). 

If you are going to make this work, (with one or both dogs), you need to make sure they have safe areas in each room (or entire rooms/areas) where they are safe from the child. This may mean getting a movable fence/pack'n'play and placing the kid in there for play time.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://www.livingwithkidsanddogs.com/learn.html

Good reference.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

What's missing in the discussion is just how vital it is to teach "bite inhibition" aka having a soft mouth to young puppies. This means getting ones hands inside a puppy's mouth a great deal in the early weeks and months, and reinforcing bite inhibition as time goes by. This is a vital safety issue and a part of "training" that is very often overlooked.

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

This is just my thoughts.
You can teach a pup bite inhibition, or not to bite, but under some situations that's all going to go out the window. If it worked every time, all the time, we would never have a problem with dog bites.
I'm not saying don't teach it. I'm saying don't count on it working in every situation.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

TexasRed said:


> This is just my thoughts.
> You can teach a pup bite inhibition, or not to bite, but under some situations that's all going to go out the window. If it worked every time, all the time, we would never have a problem with dog bites.
> I'm not saying don't teach it. I'm saying don't count on it working in every situation.


Teaching "not to bite" is not the same as teaching bite inhibition (aka teaching for a soft mouth). They are in fact polar opposites in training methods. The first uses strong corrections to discourage a puppy from putting its mouth on people. The second recognizes that puppies "mouthing"people is normal puppy behavior, and seeks to mold that behavior over time to develop a soft mouth.

When the "not bite" approach fails fails, it can fail very badly. The bite inhibition (soft mouth) method rarely fails, as it is not an "all or nothing" style of training.

Very few people teach bite inhibition. Many teach (attempt to teach) a zero mouthing/biting regimen to puppies. The results of this latter choice can be catastrophic as these dogs are not trained to have a soft mouth. It really is a big deal, and major difference.

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I think you missed the whole point.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

TexasRed said:


> I think you missed the whole point.


I don't believe so. I think you are conflating two very different training methods, one being "bite stopping" (for lack of a better term), which uses strong corrections to STOP puppy "mouthing" behaviors, and the other being training for "bite inhibition."

I think you are suggesting that both can fail. And implicit in that is the idea that the chances of them failing are approximately equal. This just is not so.

The "bite stopping" method has an extremely high failure rate. And when it goes bad, and a dog snaps, the results can be catastrophic. Such dogs have really not been "trained." 

There is no comparison with dogs/ puppies that have been actively trained in bite inhibition over time. Such dogs are trained to have a soft mouth. This is the sort of training that does not fail in a moment where the dog snaps. They are two very different approaches. One is very risky, the other is the closest thing to a guarantee a dog will not bite.

Big difference.

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

> This is the sort of training that does not fail in a moment where the dog snaps


This is where I respectfully disagree with you.
I think you are misleading puppy owners into believing that as a dog it will never bite to the point that it puncher the skin, because its had this type of training. To many other things come into play when a dog bites, and some dogs are more prone to bite than others.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

TexasRed said:


> > This is the sort of training that does not fail in a moment where the dog snaps
> 
> 
> This is where I respectfully disagree with you.
> I think you are misleading puppy owners into believing that as a dog it will never bite to the point that it puncher the skin, because its had this type of training. To many other things come into play when a dog bites, and some dogs are more prone to bite than others.


Respectfully, you are misinformed about this. Active bite inhibition training is the very best sort of assurance a dog owner has to ensure its dog is safe. I find it unfortunate that a forum moderator would attempt to mislead owners of new puppies to believe otherwise.

Leaving things to a dog's individual inclinations, as in they a "prone" to biting (or not), is a very dangerous strategy.

All puppies benefit from active bite inhibition training. Leaving things to a dog's natural inclinations is very (very) risky and unwise.

Bill


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## CrazyCash (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm a little confused on what you are saying about bite inhibition. While I agree with you that it's important to teach a dog to have a soft mouth around people, I'm not making the connection between how that would prevent a dog from ever biting in any situation. Both of my dogs have a soft mouth and I can put my hand in their mouth while they are eating, chewing on a toy or even wrestling. My girl Penny has a fear of men - when a man comes into the room her first instinct is to bark and run away and she will go to the farthest corner she can find and cower because she is afraid. If a man were to push the limits and trap her in that corner and try to pet her, I can almost guarantee that she's going to bite at him as a last resort to protect herself. In that situation she would be so terrified that her fight instinct would kick in and even though she has a soft mouth, it wouldn't prevent a bite. On a day to day basis I have no fear that she is aggressive and when approached correctly she will interact with men, but I know her triggers and I never put her in a situation to fail. 

In the end a dog is an animal with animal instincts and you will never train those instincts out of a dog. The key is to set your dog up for success and keep them safe as well as everyone around them.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://www.livingwithkidsanddogs.com/articles.html

These articles are excellent for parents with young children and dogs.

Educate, protect, and respect.

The picture attached was a young and timid Vizsla that took a long time to get around children. She hated to be around kids.

(That is Chloe at 4 months).

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/07/fear-of-toddlers-overcome.html

RBD


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> http://www.livingwithkidsanddogs.com/articles.html
> 
> These articles are excellent for parents with young children and dogs.
> 
> ...


Th linked article is OK, but it only deals with the human end of things, and completely neglects to mention training for bite inhibition.

That is a big failure when such training is the best way to reduce the risks of dog bites.

Dog owners should deal with the underlying issues during puppy rearing, rather than (just) modifying human behaviors around untrained (and potentially dangerous, in that regard) dogs. 

It is best to train against the cause of problems, rather than dealing with "symptoms" later.

The article only deals with "symptoms" and how to deal with an untrained dog, not how to raise a dog that won't bite in the first place. That is a problem.

Bill


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## lilyloo (Jun 20, 2012)

CrazyCash said:


> In the end a dog is an animal with animal instincts and you will never train those instincts out of a dog. The key is to set your dog up for success and keep them safe as well as everyone around them.


This, x100. No matter how well trained a dog, you cannot 100% know that they will never act out of the ordinary and momentarily snap or bite. I kind of like to think of it as a lion in a zoo. The zookeepers have trained these lions and trust them enough to go into their cages, feed them, and even play with and pet them. You still hear of unfortunate incidents where something happened and the lion snapped and injured or even killed the zookeeper despite the extensive work the keepers have done training the lions. You just never know. Of course a dog is a much more domesticated animal than a lion, but you get the point.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

> I find it unfortunate that a forum moderator would attempt to mislead owners of new puppies to believe otherwise


I believe you also misunderstand my role as moderator.
It is only to enforce forum rules. So tread lightly before you break one.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

With all respect Bill, Bite inhibition is training for a soft mouth when using a human or other dog as a chew toy, in play or other normal active, awake interactions. Just as in gun safety we never assume a weapon is unloaded, so too should we practice dog safety and never assume any dog is 100% "safe". Bite inhibition training helps, but it does not guarantee nor should it ever be presumed or billed as the cure all/end all to guarantee a dog is "safe".

Bite inhibition training absolutely does not mean that the dog will *never* bite in a startled, reactionary or survival state, i.e. sound asleep and suddenly attacked by some little monster (not calling your child a monster - just pontificating how the dog might view things).

Do I think it is beneficial, absolutely. 

Finally, given the description and pictures provided of one wound of a very young soft fleshy skin, I think that in this instance the dog actually did exercise bite inhibition. Had it not, given my experience, there would be many more holes delivered in less than a second.

Ken


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

TexasRed said:


> > I find it unfortunate that a forum moderator would attempt to mislead owners of new puppies to believe otherwise
> 
> 
> I believe you also misunderstand my role as moderator.
> It is only to enforce forum rules. So tread lightly before you break one.


You (falsely) accused me of misleading people. This is NOT THE CASE.

Bite inhibition and proper socialization are vital training needs that responsible dog owners should attend to in puppyhood.

I don't appreciate the tone of the comments.

Bill


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

WillowyndRanch said:


> With all respect Bill, Bite inhibition is training for a soft mouth when using a human or other dog as a chew toy, in play or other normal active, awake interactions. Just as in gun safety we never assume a weapon is unloaded, so too should we practice dog safety and never assume any dog is 100% "safe". Bite inhibition training helps, but it does not guarantee nor should it ever be presumed or billed as the cure all/end all to guarantee a dog is "safe".
> 
> Bite inhibition training absolutely does not mean that the dog will *never* bite in a startled, reactionary or survival state, i.e. sound asleep and suddenly attacked by some little monster (not calling your child a monster - just pontificating how the dog might view things).
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I could not disagree with you more Ken. A dog properly trained in bite inhibition is a very safe dog.

Biting a child's face because the child stumbled on the dog is not an example of a dog trained to be soft mouthed. No way, no how.

I'm surprised so many are missing the plot on this one.

Bill


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

No one here disagrees that bite inhibition training is an important aspect of puppy rearing, however their experience, opinion, fantastical whim, or whatever you want to call it, disagrees with your assertion that it will always keep a dog from biting in the type of situation at the heart of this thread. It's ok for people to disagree and for you to explain why you believe they're wrong, but at this point we're all beating a dead horse. Furthermore, we're not at all helping the OP at this point and are outing ourselves as nut jobs with far too much time on our hands. So can we call this one a draw?


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

einspänner said:


> No one here disagrees that bite inhibition training is an important aspect of puppy rearing, however their experience, opinion, fantastical whim, or whatever you want to call it, disagrees with your assertion that it will always keep a dog from biting in the type of situation at the heart of this thread. It's ok for people to disagree and for you to explain why you believe they're wrong, but at this point we're all beating a dead horse. Furthermore, we're not at all helping the OP at this point and are outing ourselves as nut jobs with far too much time on our hands. So can we call this one a draw?


Being concerned that dogs are raised in ways that minimize the chance that they will bite children in the face doesn't make one a "nut job." This is a serious issue. Too bad so many minds are closed on this issue. I know sustained bite inhibition training works. I've trained many gun dogs this way for more than 45 years. Long before this sort of training had a "name." Not one dog has ever bit child (or anyone else). 

We can terminate the discussion, which would be too bad, because dogs that bite can cause serious harm to people and usually dogs that bite are removed from homes, or sent to shelters, and/or killed. There is a better way.

Bill


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

Spy said:


> Being concerned that dogs are raised in ways that minimize the chance that they will bite children in the face doesn't make one a "nut job." ...


I didn't read einspänner's post as being directed at you as a nut case, only as a comment on the general intensity of this topic.



Spy said:


> We can terminate the discussion, which would be too bad, because dogs that bite can cause serious harm to people ...


I don't think that continuing will change anything. It's all been said & repeated enough. Too much so.

Bob


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Bob said:


> I didn't read einspänner's post as being directed at you as a nut case, only as a comment on the general intensity of this topic.
> 
> I don't think that continuing will change anything. It's all been said & repeated enough. Too much so.
> 
> Bob


I didn't take Enspänner's comments any differently that you did (ie, I did not believe she was calling me a nut). 

But the idea that discussing such a vital part of dog training—and one that appears to be widely neglected after reading the thread—if something that is over discussed or should be considered a "draw" on it's merits is dead wrong.

Neglecting proper training perpetuates the common situation where a dog biting (or not biting) is left to the natural inclinations of a given dog, with the only response being people reast to the the sypptoms and manifestations of the individual dog's behavior.

Personally, I think this is madness, and an extreme dangerous way to raise a dog. 

Bill


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Just a general "FYI" here -- The subject of *bite inhibition* has been discussed many, many times in these forums. If you just go up to the "Search" box and type in "bite inhibition", you will see that this is true.


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## Pecan_and_BB (Jun 15, 2015)

So sorry to hear that MamaSiano25,

I'm not sure if your V is prone to this and I don't have enough experience yet with the Vizsla breed to know if it can happen with them, however I'll share my wife's and my experience we had with our last Walker Hound.

Prior to our new V, we rescued a Walker Hound who was a year and a half old. He was an extremely sweet dog who was well behaved and who bonded with both of us fairly quickly. Within a month though, we noticed that when he slept, he never did quite relax and go into that floppy rag-doll sleep. Prior to him we had 2 fox hounds so we were experienced with the hound characteristics and this behaviour was different.

One morning, my wife woke up, pet the dog prior to him waking up and it startled him. He went into defense mode and bit her causing 8 stitches. We consulted a dog behaviorist and did a little more research on him and found that this was one of the reasons that the original owners gave him up, however they didn't disclose this with the rescue facility. The behaviourist said that this can manifest because of a traumatic experience when older while sleeping, when a puppy isn't left with his/her littermates long enough, or she's seen it when puppy's grow up only sleeping in their crates and lack contact/noises.

What she recommended we do is protect our hands and arms (I used oven mits duct taped to an old thick leather jacket) and begin the process of conditioning the dog to a LOT of touching, moving, pushing, noises, and contact once asleep. If he woke up startled and begins to bite, let him (on the mits and leather) and reassure him he's in a safe place with a soothing voice. Once he stops, reward him and once you are certain he is out of that startled wake up mode, praise him. Well, after doing this for about 3-4 months, 10-15 times per day, we finally saw him go rag-doll while sleeping and he began to completely relax. At that point, when we would force contact and noises, if he'd wake up nice, he'd get rewards and cuddles right away.

The entire re-hab process where we felt he was finally trustworthy took about a year and a half and even then we continued it for another 6 months of incident free wakeups. It can be extremely frightening and I will say this re-hab technique isn't for everyone (my wife didn't participate for the first 8 months) and I would consult an expert in your area if you feel that you cannot trust your V while sleeping around your family before undertaking such a process. I just wanted to share with you a potential path that you might want to take, albeit a difficult one, if you see the behaviour continue.

As for our new little V, anytime she is sleeping, we expose her to every type of contact and noise we can think of in order to reinforce what her and her litter mates did to one another from the day they were whelped.


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## MamaSiano25 (Jul 13, 2015)

Thank you all so much for responses, they have all been extremely helpful to my family!! My husband and I have decided to bring in a professional to help our family kind of retrain both dogs. The person we found in our area has worked with dogs that have acted in similar ways as our youngest V and had great success. We are really hoping this will help bring some peace and comfort back into our home. 
Wish us luck, we start this Friday!


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