# Dominance of same sex Vizslas



## redbirddog

After an odd occurrence yesterday, I thought I'd research some on male and male dominance. 

Situation:

Bailey had been "interested" in one of the male's intact mother during an off-leash walk. Nothing but flirting and prancing was occurring as we walked along.

There were 5 Vizslas on the walk in the late afternoon yesterday. My friend's two males, one female, my male and my female.

When one of the 5 year old males did the dominance hump on my 3.5 year old male about 1 hour into the walk, Bailey was going to have nothing to do with it. 

Within seconds, Bailey turned and snarled and snapped at the other male. He has never let a dog dominate-hump him and I knew what would happen quickly. On the other side, Bailey has never tried to dominate-hump another dog.

I pulled Bailey off and put him on leash and he stayed on leash the rest of the walk.

The owner of the other male thought my dog had aggression issues. I guess I have issues with that thought process.

Bailey reacted in an understandable fashion IMO. What should have my dog done? 

Another aspect of trying to understand in independent-minded strong-willed hunting dogs. Always more to learn.

Have others had experience with this?

Very good read:

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/inter-dog-dominance-aggression/page2.aspx

RBD


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## datacan

So humping is a sign of disrespect... I learned the other day from an earlier post. Good to know.

The inter dog article suggests neutering can stop aggression  I think is a bit wonky.

The other dog owner should have intervened as well, not fair, poor Bailey.

==

From my previous dog:
I took him to a few Schützen classes and a small part of the course was on stopping dog fights.
As it was explained to us it takes 2 people to separate them, otherwise immobilizing only one dog will endanger the handler and the dog. 
So if the fight was serious, 2 people are needed, each grabbing one dog by the back legs and pulling them apart. As they pull them apart the handlers should move in a circular motion away to a kennel or tree where the dogs can be tied until calm.
Not for the faint of heart. Luckily I never had to practice.


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## redrover

It is, IMO, quite normal for a dog to "tell" another dog that the humping behavior is unacceptable, especially if he has been sending signals to the other dog before the snarl/snap. Jasper has had this happen to him, and he's done it. I can always see when it is about to happen, and as long as both dogs are well-socialized, there is very little going on but snarling and showing teeth--that is, no teeth-on-fur happens. What Bailey did isn't aggression--he was correcting unacceptable behavior. Working out dominance is something that dogs must do in their own doggy way. Unfortunately, there are a fair number of dog owners who don't interpret the body language of their dogs well, so don't always see the dominance issues at play, then are either overly concerned or not concerned enough once something happens.

Also, on datacan's point--yes, when breaking up a dog fight, it's best if all dogs are removed from the situation. The other dogs know when your dog is being restrained, and not only will they find it easier to pick on your dog, your dog might get even more panicked and react in a more violent manner than before. Picking dogs up by the back legs is the safest way to get a dog out of there. If your dog is being attacked, you're supposed to do that--it distracts the dog that's attacking yours, while giving your dog time and space to run away. I've seen some dog fights broken up in less than safe-looking ways--people diving in between the dogs, one man reaching in to grab his dog's collar with his infant (!) strapped to his back, and I once even saw a man smack his dog across the face with the business end of his leash. That last one was really unpleasant--the dogs weren't even fighting, just playing rough. The owner didn't like that his dog was "being too dominant," so bam! Right across the muzzle. OUCH.


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## threefsh

Sounds like the other dog needs to learn some manners. I'm surprised the owner didn't pull HIS dog off when he jumped on poor Bailey. In puppy social club, we make sure the pups learn not to hump or pin each other at an early age.


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## Ozkar

You know exactly what it is RBD. I'm surprised apart from sharing the story, that you are asking an opinion. But, I'll humour you 

Your dog reacted perfectly naturally and corrected the other male. As to the owner of the other male, he should be thanking Bailey for correcting his dog and teaching it that not all males are OK with being humped. I would have followed Bailey's lead and corrected the other owner!


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## born36

Mac pup is only 8 months and he has a Wiem that we bump into every once in awhile that is 6 yrs old and Mac loves playing with him. Last time they were playing the Wiem decided to try and hump Mac. Now Mac is clearly submissive to this dog and the owner of the Wiem knows this so he stopped his dog straight away. Mac didn't even get a chance to snarl or try to correct although I don't think he would have as he is so submissive to this dog anyway. 

Point is the owner of the other dog should be on his dog for a correction right away if it is humping other dogs. I don't understand why this didn't happen. Mac has tried before to hump dogs but I too correct him straight away. I don't get who stands there and let's the humping go on. Not me...not ever!


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## kellygh

I have never thought it is good manners to allow your dog to hump another.The owner, IMO, has a responsibility to stop the behavior immediately. I do not buy into "its natural pack behavior." While it may be natural, its natural for a dog to protest & defend his/her standing! I find nothing wrong with Bailey's behavior. If my child were being picked on, even though hitting is not ok, i would never punish them for defending themselves or property! Our older female dachshund sometimes tries to hump Pumpkin, our V, & I always tell Moxie off. Pumpkin no longer stands for it, & I do not reprimand her for a growl and snap to the dachshund.


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## redbirddog

Thanks to all for the responses.

This happened QUICK and the other owner is very knowledgable so that is what got me. Bailey was scary looking and sounding when he turned on the dog. It was not pretty.

I reacted quickly or it could have gotten ugly for 10 seconds or so. 

Aggression is an over used word for assertiveness in my opinion. Just like Alpha and some of the other words that we humans use to relate to our canine friends. Bailey is not passive and that is kinda like me. 

Like owner - like dog? 

Just thought I would post the story as an example of how some use the thought "aggressive" to suggest we neuter male dogs becasue they are "aggressive". Easier than thinking like a dog. Easy solution for humans to make passive dogs that are easier to deal with. Yes, a passive dog is easier, I will admit.

Off for a pheasant hunt this morning with Bailey where he can use his asssertiveness to its fullest.

Will post pictures and a quick story on redbirddog tonight. 

RBD


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## polkan

Humping is one of the "fixed action patterns" that are hard-wired and do not need to be taught, such as chasing prey, eating, fight-or-flight responses, etc. They all also occur outside of the primary context they were meant for; and while puppies, especially, almost always "practice" them (chasing each other or toys, for example) there is usually a modicum of context resemblance for which they were meant that is retained. 

In all honesty, I've never seen a dog that was using humping to establish rank dominance and I think in most situations dogs figure out their ranks relative to each other using relatively straight-forward process that happens in the first moments they meet. I can certainly understand why that dominance explanation is so popular, but if we really watch and observe those humping dogs, there was always something else going on.

In my opinion, humping has more to do with excitement and arousal levels than rank dominance. It can be either sexual or play-related (a-ka "practice" behaviors in puppy-hood), and the latter can probably spill over into the former. And I'm sure most people would agree that there might be a correlation between playfulness and arousal levels in human sexual encounters  

If Bailey and this dog have met before, then I think it's very unlikely the humping behavior on this occasion is a sign of dominance. If this was the first time they met, it's puzzling why it took the supposedly "dominant" dog a whole hour to assert himself. 

If humping outside of mating isn't an acceptable behavior, then it's obvious that the dog that does the humping is the dog that displays that behavior. Not the dog that's trying to stop it. I think Bailey handled the situation admirably and it's the other dog that should have been leashed.

It's unfortunate and sad that it's so easy for owners of excitable dogs to ignore a lack of training they had provided, and instead accuse others of aggression when they perfectly reasonably won't put up with bad manners.


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## laurita

I think that we forget to appreciate that a snarl is a warning and it's to be appreciated. The other owner, IMO, should appreciate the warning rather than a full-fledged bite. I agree that it's absolutely Bailey's right to reprimand a dog for humping him. As my male is maturing (13 mos), he's becoming less tolerant of humping, while as a puppy he didn't do much about it. He, too, gives a little air snap or sign of discontent and if another owner were to be upset about him doing that or it escalating after another dog isn't respecting his signals, I'd be more inclined to shake my head and say that the dog got fair warning.


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## Crazy Kian

Kian is in the same boat as Bailey. He will not tolerate another male mounting him/trying to hump him. He will start with a look, then a low snarl/growl. If the other dog does not get the hint, then he whips around and will either bark at him and push the dog out of the way or bare his teeth and really let him have it. For some reason though, he is okay with some dogs doing it... mostly those little dogs that only reach the back of his leg
We try not to let him get to that point where he really freaks out, it's not good for him or for the other dog.... it could turn in to a full on fight.

Just the other week a male dog was walking off leash in our neighbourhood. Kian was doing his business and the other male come up to him and tried to hump him, but Kian side stepped him. I looked at the other dog and got between him and Kian as he was still trying to accomplish his mission of going #2.
The owner then showed up and said, oh don't worry, he's just trying to play. I said, "you may think so, but he's trying to mount my dog and control him. My dog hates that from other males and will tell him off, so be careful."
I felt it was not fair to Kian especially since he was on a leash and couldn't really "defend" himself while he was trying to poop.
The owner looked at me as if I was smoking crack. 
His dog came at Kian again and I literally stuck my foot up against his dog's snout and asked him to take his dog somewhere else as I didn't appreciate that.


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## ElGranto

Odin got humped once while off leash in a park. He must have been about... 3.5-4 months old. He didn't know what was going on but he had an "I don't think this is okay" face. I saw it and called his name and said "Odin! Don't take that!" in a playful voice. He quickly picked up on the fact that it was not something that should be happening and took off.

Skip ahead to this weekend (now 5 months old). An other dog tried to hump him and Odin took none of that! He turned and snarled and barked and the other dog took off like a bat outta ****. I think he successfully told the other dog that he doesn't swing that way


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## Ozkar

This is kind of related, so rather than start a new thread, I thought I might add some recent observations into RBD's thread.

In the past 30-40 days, you may have read a few things I have said about Astro and him growing up. Both physically and mentally, he is becoming a dog now rather than a pup. He runs with the other two for as long as they do. He wrestles now on an even keel with both Zsa Zsa and Ozkar. He is in no way becoming aggressive, but he is now standing his ground and not rolling over and conceding unless he wants to in play.

The last few visits, I have noticed that his newfound confidence and strength in play has somewhat altered the relationship dynamic with him and Ozkar. They are not fighting, but what I am seeing, is Astro no longer allowing Ozkar to dominate, unless Astro wants him to. 

When Zsa Zsa and the other two play one on one, they almost take turns in being the submissive one in play wrestles. Sometimes they take the dominant position and other times the submissive. Often they will alternate during one continuous rumble. 

However, lately, I have noticed that neither one of them is all that keen on letting the other be the one who is dominant. They are both wanting to take that role. Now while as yet, there has been no tears, I am watching this behaviour carefully. While it is good to know that Astro won't stand for any bullying behaviour from Ozkar, I want to be sure that left alone at home, they won't escalate it further.

They have gotten heated to the point of borderline aggro. Neither has overstepped that mark yet and they always seem to settle and then a few minutes later they are back at each other in a playful way. So I am not sure yet if it is a sign of an issue developing as Astro spreads his neutered wings, or if it is Ozkar's testosterone fuelled energy that is the cause? 

RBD, what are your thoughts? It's been some time since I went through this with another dog. (I brought home an entire 18 month old male cocker to my 3.5 yr old entire male cocker, but that was 12 years ago and I can't for the life of me remember how it all went down.)


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## kellygh

Ozkar, Something similar has taken place in our house. The dynamics are different of course, but what Pumpkin used to tolerate as a younger pup is no more--at least with our dachshund. P is submissive/spastic excited around new dogs; however, P will now give Moxie a nasty reprimand when she used to do nothing.


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## redbirddog

From the article that I referred to in the opening post:

Section: Sibling Rivalry​Another common form of dominance-related inter-dog aggression is known as sibling rivalry. Sibling rivalry refers to situations in which two or more dogs in the same household fight. The fights may start out as snarling and growling over space or other resources. If left unchecked, serious fighting can ensue resulting in injury or even death. 

Fighting occurs because the dogs have not established a stable dominance hierarchy. *Dogs have no sense of equality, so one must always be the leader.* This is often a difficult concept for owners to grasp. They prefer to treat their dogs as equals and work to even out disputes. *But well-meaning intervention only serves to fuel continued fighting between the dogs. * Fights occur between dogs of near equal dominance and rarely, if ever, between a very dominant dog and a submissive dog because the latter readily defers. There are two varieties of sibling rivalry that are commonly seen. 


•Type 1. This is a simple dominance struggle between two dogs, siblings or not, that live in the same household. Confrontations often arise when one dog reaches social maturity (18 months to 3 years of age) and begins to challenge an older, more dominant dog's rank. Alternatively, confrontations may occur when an older dog becomes ill and begins to lose ground as the leader. Under these circumstances, a previously subordinate dog may begin to challenge his former leader and attempt to usurp his social position. This type of aggression will usually resolve in fairly short order (2-3 weeks) as long as people do not interfere with what is the course of nature. 

The posturing and displays are similar to those described above and fighting will end when one or other dog has successfully made his point and has assumed the leadership role. With emotionally well-balanced dogs, fights are usually not life threatening as posturing, inhibited bites, and vocalizations constitute the basis of the communicative displays. Occasionally aggressive interactions may span a month or more because both dogs are unwilling to concede to a subordinate status. In these situations, typically the dogs are of the same sex (female disputes tend to be more refractory and more likely to result in injury) and one or both dogs have recently reached social maturity. As dogs are inherently social and hierarchical animals, any breed may engage in sibling rivalry disputes. However, this problem is reported to occur more frequently in breeds selected for independent, feisty temperaments, such as terriers. Aggressive incidents are often restricted to specific circumstances, such as competition over space or resources.


•Type 2. The second and much more common type of sibling rivalry is what is referred to as alliance aggression. This unfortunate situation is man-made and occurs when humans interfere with dominance/deference struggles between dogs in the same household. *The typical human reaction is to support the subordinate, which ensures that dominance is not established and fighting continues. By supporting the underdog, the owners increase the would-be subordinate dog's social status, and by chastising the more dominant dog they will effectively weaken his position. * This ensures that near equal dominance status is maintained and the fighting will continue. These fights can be much more dangerous (resulting in severe injury) and persist for a considerable length of time. Typically, the dogs fight only in the presence of the owner and it is the owner's comings and goings that precipitate the violence."

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/inter-dog-dominance-aggression/page3.aspx

Hope that helps understanding. I liked it.

Another article that is very good on understanding dominance in the dog world.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/12/history-and-misconceptions-of-dominance.html

RBD


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## Ozkar

Definately not type 2 then RBD.  I let them work it out. They had a little spat this morning over a chicken carcass. Astro is a demolition man when it comes to chicken carcass'. He just destroys them in seconds. He chews them, but fast. 

So this morning he eats his, then goes after Ozkar's. Ozkar of course wouldn't have a bar of it. This time Astro got aggro and went Ozkar for the carcass. Ozkar would have none of that and stood his ground.....for a bit... then he conceded a little as they parried and thrust across the patio. Then Ozkar, the smart little fella, saw a gap in proceedings and nailed the carcass in his mouth and took off before Astro realised what had happened. 

So, it is looking more and more like Astro will be the dominant male in the house. I had always thought it would be Ozkar. One due to him being the first dog in the house and Zsa Zsa and Astro following. Also as Astro is not entire and Zsa Zsa is female. 

But thinking about it, it has always been Zsa Zsa that has really been king of the heap around here. At least while Astro was a puppy. Ozkar has never challenged Zsa Zsa's position as pack leader and at this stage neither has Astro, but it is looking like for now Astro will be dominant over Ozkar, then Zsa Zsa will rule over both  

But, watching Astro's changing behaviour, he may end up being top dog overall. He is physically larger than both the other two by a large margin. He stands a good three inches taller than Zsa Zsa, although she is a small pointer by breed standards. Next to Ozkar he is still a good 2 inches taller, maybe more. 

The spat this morning was all show. The bites and snaps were all harmless and no dog was hurt in the filming.  So I am not concerned, just wondered more if you had experienced this and how it panned out. I really should ring my ex and ask her to remind me how it worked with our cockers. I've got a memory like a sieve, but she remembers how much milk was in the fridge in June 1986. 

Going to be 35c today. Thinking a trip to the beach again might be a good idea.


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