# correct hungarian vizsla color



## reneevanm

COLOR: BAGUETTE is the true color of the Hungarian Vizsla. In the original official breed standard the color is “zsemlesarga es annak kulonbozo aranyalatai”,” which in correct English means, “French-roll yellow (Baguette) and its different shades”, nowhere EVER was the color anything other than French-roll yellow in Hungarian. The ‘russet gold’ found in English translations is due to an error in translating the Hungarian phrase to English. The German translation ‘Semmelgelb’ (which means French-roll yellow) is correct.”

When shopping for a puppy….if the parents are dark, suggesting “red” or mahogany, please be responsible and Walk Away, do not buy the puppy as you will be an accomplice in doing the breed a disservice. Keep searching, there are breeders out there who are breeding correct colored Vizslas…, just be patient, even if it means getting on a waiting list.

Those who truly love the Vizsla breed and want to protect it must be forever vigilent in upholding its Hallmark breed marks that set it apart from other breeds: its beautiful head and conformaton, color ,moderate rear angulation, low set tail and proper carriage, exceptional natural hunting ability and that special temperment characterized by the mild and kind look in their eyes.


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## mswhipple

Yes, it's true. If you read up on the history of the breed, you will see the Vizsla referred to as the Magyar "yellow pointer".


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## redbirddog

reneevanm.

Picture of three of Bailey's pups.

Baguette colored. Completely agree. 

Maybe I should change my blog name to Baguettebirddog. : 

RBD


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## Crazy Kian

Should I give my dog back then?
;D


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## R E McCraith

AKC standard - color - golden rust - faulty - mahogany & pale yellow - definition - golden - of the color of gold yellow - rust - strong brown color with a reddish or yellowish tinge ---maybe we need an AKC approved color chip when shopping for our V LOL


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## flynnandlunasmom

Crazy Kian, your dog is beautiful!


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## Crazy Kian

flynnandlunasmom said:


> Crazy Kian, your dog is beautiful!


Thanks.... personally I think all the V's on here are fine just the way they are. 
Imagine if they all looked the same, what fun would that be. :


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## threefsh

"BAGUETTE" may be the ideal color, but have you ever seen a litter of puppies with all the same shade? Riley's siblings were all different shades from *almost* too light (he actually darkened up as he aged) to Riley's darker rust color. Riley is the pup in the black collar with white paws.


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## Bernie

I see white on some of those baguetts that apears to be more than the allowable.


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## flynnandlunasmom

I think it was bold of you to post this in a forum with thousands of members and (perhaps unintentionally) criticize a large majority of the dogs who are probably a little more rust than biscuit color.


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## flynnandlunasmom

Ah, I mean baguette, not biscuit - but you get the point.


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## redbirddog

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/06/hungarian-vizsla-video-1942.html

The black and white video of a kennel full of Vizslas in Hungary 1942 and out in the field. Is this "the standard?" (including the docked tail)

Does the dog hunt? Is the dog built to hunt? Shades of red and white markings don't mean much of anything for me. Form follows function.

I'll post a video tonight of Bailey hunting rabbits (as seen in the field shots in 1942). Completely different attitude than hunting birds. Slow and down as low as he could walk, stopping frequently to smell the air. He would flush a hare and give chase. He was trying to get as close as he could. 

RBD


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## R E McCraith

renee - my first 3 V's were gifts from friends that brought them here after 2 yrs in a interment camp - 1000yrs of breeding and now we have a standard ? yes it is nice to have guidelines and a starting point when looking for your V - you must be from Hungary and a big pain n the ass to me - your country almost let the breed go to extinction - the expatriots that brought the breed to this country USA are my hero's - order this off the menu - to judge is to be judged


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## flynnandlunasmom

I'll let Suliko speak for herself because I have never met Pacsirta. But, I know Pacsirta is from Hungary and given the pictures and videos I've seen on here, Pacsirta appears to be the same color as most of the golden-rust colored vizslas I've seen. Check out her most recent "red mountain goats" post.


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## WillowyndRanch

Renee,
It's definitely apparent you have a niche selected for your breeding program. I only note one female on your website, and wonder to myself how much is marketing and how much is actually a breeding program. Regardless, I truly do wish you all the luck and success in the world. 

In my opinion, I think that limiting the Vizsla of today to only the dogs left in Hungary is a disservice to the breed as a whole. Limiting the gene pool to one microcosm of the globe where the breed was virtually extinguished would give me pause. The push for Breeding for "color" is the ruination of many breeds. 
Every breed develops and changes throughout time and location dependent upon the desires of those who support and compete in the breed. For example, A Vizsla in the Western US where expanses are vast and game is different will likely be somewhat variant from one that is bred for tight woods and different game in Europe. In my opinion, that diversity helps the breed, not hinders it. Having different types to breed to allows one to breed back in lost aspects without having to outcross to another breed. These lost variables happen in any breed and breeding program over time. Even the "Masters" of the breed will change or alter the breed over time to successfully work in the ever changing landscape of our world. I like that there are variations within a central Vizsla theme.

Personally, I'll look to breed for Health, temperment, brains, natural field ability and the like. Color is last on my list. 
Give me an intelligent, strong, healthy mahogany dog with a high head and high tailset, white on his toes and a flash on his chest that can hold a covey of grouse on the Praire at 30 yards on a windy October morning and retrieve from the brambles or pond anyday. 
I'll Happily Toast him with Pálinka and eat my baguette. 

Ken


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## Suliko

*flynnandlunasmom*, you are right - my little one doesn't really stand out colorwise amongst other Vs when we're out and about. She and Sophie actually are almost the same color! (I can only probably tell a little difference). Sometimes I even get confused which one is which, especially when they are asleep. I love it though! More fun! 

About the color - yes, I too have read about the French roll being the color of the original V. I have to say, *reneevanm*, the top of the rolls you posted are much darker than the bottom. So, mine fit right somewhere in-between!  

I'll put a few pics up with my girls. Pacsirta, the little one, is my Hungarian import; Sophie, the oldest, is my "Made in the USA". 

I do use some photoshop to enhance the color. So, the first pic - my two crazies in the woods (photoshop-enhanced); second - sitting for a pic (taken with mobile phone, no photoshop). 
Third pic - just because they're cute (photoshop-enhanced) ;D

P.S. I know a Vizsla in Latvia (a Hungarian import) that gets lots of compliments on color from many international judges. I'll try and get a pic to upload up here.


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## AKGInspiration

reneevanm said:


> My post was not mean to insult any ones dog and should not be taken personally. It was posted in the interests of education and is directed toward prospective new Vizsla owners as they often visit forums prior to approaching a breeder for the purchase of a pup.
> 
> The Hungarian Vizsla breed is a Hungarian breed, always has been and always will be. The breed standard has been under assault worldwide for some time and is straying far from the original as envisioned by its creators in its country of origin.
> 
> I decided to post as I had visited this site and saw a post from someone requesting a breeder who had dark red dogs, as though he were ordering an item on the menu at a local restaurant. Sadly enough, this is the mentality of many people have in the USA when beginning their search for a pup and it is borne out of ignorance and lack of respect for a breed.. Sadly also, there are breeders with little integrity who will go with the flow and feed the demand. I have no doubt the poster found the red dog he was looking for.
> 
> reneevanm
> countryoforiginvizslas.com


Can you post/translate what it says about any white markings? I would be interested to see what they might say about that, and what has been lost in translation.
I see the white marks as just as big a problem in the breed. I know they probably come from pointers that have slipped in there. While I can appreciate the "hunt/point" this addition probably added to the breed, I still hate to see dogs with white blazing chests grace the covers of AKC based magazines. If my dog had white I would not love her any less, but I would also acknowledge that it is not standard. Just like I would love a long haired, but would never breed a long haired on purpose. I am shocked (though not really as what do you expect from such a big organization) at what I see is "allowed/ignored" in the field and show ring in this breed, when it comes to white markings. 

I do own a rather red colored Vizsla, but had never known she was supposed to be "baguette" colored. All things I have read are what others often read like "rust" "brown with red tint" "golden rust"


Then again maybe it comes down to the right light?? She looks pretty baguette colored here ;-) I would find it really hard to determine what color that is, and I am a baker too!


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## R E McCraith

Renee - glad 2 C you got to post an advertisment for your future kennel - if you read any posts here - you would know how we feel about this !


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## WillowyndRanch

reneevanm said:


> If I had been properly educated, as to what a true to type Vizsla was


I truly do understand and applaud your passion. I also reiterate I wish you all the best and great success. 

I am not attempting to argue, rather offer rebuttal to the educational message.

I think perhaps where people are getting rubbed a bit wrong is that the educational message is only the current Hungarian Version of the Standard and it's interpretation therof by the Hungarian consultant of said standard is "true to type". Variants to this consultant's interpretation of the current Hungarian standard then by default are not. Correct?

In the U.S. the AKC is the pre-eminent dog registry and those standards are to which the Vizsla Club of America adheres. That does not make those of us breeding and competing Vizslas in the U.S. to the AKC and VCA standards wrong, which is essentially the tone of the message. The same would hold true for other Nations and registries.



> It is a prospective owners responsibility to thoroughly educate himself before reaching out to a breeder. Purchasing a pup is should not be an impulse decision and much research should be done.


On this we could not be in more agreement! 

Ken


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## R E McCraith

Sorry an AD is still an AD as you just put in your last post ! being color blind I hope my V is still a V - as you try to save us from ourselves - please leave the AD's for your kennel off the post!


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## redbirddog

> I saw the redbirddogblog URL and *saw this as an obvious breeder *so thought it was ok to have a signature also.


reneevanm,

If you read my blog I have NEVER promoted any pup nor will I. 

I can only suggest you try the same. This is not my forum.

The founder of this forum asked me one day if he should link HVF to my blog and others like mine.. I told him no because some others who "blog" will be doing so just to sell something in the guise of sharing knowledge. Did / Do not believe that is the intent of this forum. 

Like your desire to keep the breed pure, some of us attempt to do the same for HVF.

My .02

RBD


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## redrover

AKGInspiration said:


> Can you post/translate what it says about any white markings? I would be interested to see what they might say about that, and what has been lost in translation.
> I see the white marks as just as big a problem in the breed. I know they probably come from pointers that have slipped in there. While I can appreciate the "hunt/point" this addition probably added to the breed, I still hate to see dogs with white blazing chests grace the covers of AKC based magazines. If my dog had white I would not love her any less, but I would also acknowledge that it is not standard. Just like I would love a long haired, but would never breed a long haired on purpose. I am shocked (though not really as what do you expect from such a big organization) at what I see is "allowed/ignored" in the field and show ring in this breed, when it comes to white markings.


AKG, from my (admittedly somewhat limited) understanding of dog coat genetics, the white marks frequently seen on Vizsla chests and toes is not something being thrown in from pointers, and is not necessarily hereditary. The presence of these marks is due to incomplete migration of melanocytes during development. This is why you can have pups born with white marks on the chest, even though the dam, sire, and previous generations won't have had the white marks.

Biology time (I'm a molecular biologist--bear with me)! Melanocytes, which are cells that produce pigment (such as the baguette/golden rust/whatever you want color of our Vs), migrate from the neural crest during embryonic development. The neural crest is basically a precursor to the spinal cord. The cells have to migrate the farthest to reach places like the chest or the toes (those aren't formed yet, but the tissue that will become those structures is). Sometimes during development there is a delay--maybe the mom got a tiny cold, something that wasn't even symptomatic. Maybe something stressed her and her developing pups. Maybe one developing pup was in a weird, less-than-ideal spot in the womb, while the others were unaffected. Or there could be some other reason that scientists and breeders have not yet elucidated. But for whatever reason, the migration might be delayed, resulting in some areas of the developing dog that lack melanocytes, and thus lack pigmentation in their fur that grows from that area. At a certain point in development, if the tissue lacks melanocytes, it will lack them forever, so if migration was delayed and the cells never got there...boom. White. This is why you often see those white spots on the chest and/or toes. Whether or not the rate of melanocyte migration is hereditary remains to be seen. 

For now, these marks are considered incidental, which is why a small amount is permissible on the chest and/or toes in the conformation ring. The marks have no influence on other qualities of the dog, such as sound body structure, trainability, eagerness, temperament, and/or hunting ability, and so they would not be a limiting factor in the field.


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## redbirddog

Redrover.

That was so cool!! Thanks from those of us that just made it through Biology 101. 

Could I share that on Redbirddog?

RBD


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## harrigab

reneevanm said:


> Obviously, I am new to this forum and still trying to understand how it works. Unfortunately I can't seem to find the posts and be able to directly reply to them to answer questions.
> 
> Another female is in the pipeline for this location, she is getting hunt trained and will have her Hungarian Jr Championship too upon arrival, "B" litter of Origin Country will be in the fall 2013. Our Nevada affliliate will be in production early next year too!
> 
> In answer to the person who attached a photo and asked "has anyone seen a litter where all the puppies were the same color and not some light and others dark?" My answer is YES and am attaching a photo of Citera's litter. All the puppies are all the same color.
> 
> When you know the bloodlines like the palm of your hand AND you have had the opportunity to personally inspect, observe and assess ALL the individual dogs on the pedigrees on multiple occassions and you have a long track record of successful breeding you are a Master Breeder you can expect a have a high degree of uniformity and consistency within the litter. It does not come by chance, though mother nature may still on occasion throw you a curved ball. This skill and accomplishment separates the chaff from the wheat. I put my trust in the ethical and competent Master Breeders.
> 
> I_* do not know the policy of the forum regarding advertising, I saw the redbirddogblog URL and saw this as an obvious breeder so thought it was ok to have a signature also. *_ Please advise what is and is not allowed and where the rules are so i can read them....Oops, it was probably in the agreement I accepted but did not read, haven't we all done that some time or another? Anyways, I will have an educational blog up and running soon as the website is finalized, it is a lot of work and I am always deciding to add another feature or service, setting back the completion date even more.
> reneevanm


I've been removing the signature link as I saw it as "back door" advertising, just got back from a long weekend away so I'll find a link to the rules for your perusal when I get caught up. In the meantime if you'd like to change your signature that would be appreciated


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## redrover

redbirddog said:


> Redrover.
> 
> That was so cool!! Thanks from those of us that just made it through Biology 101.
> 
> Could I share that on Redbirddog?
> 
> RBD


Of course! I'm fascinated with stuff like this (it also allows me to put off being fascinated by some not-fascinating-at-all work stuff). Share away!


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## AKGInspiration

AKG, from my (admittedly somewhat limited) understanding of dog coat genetics, the white marks frequently seen on Vizsla chests and toes is not something being thrown in from pointers, and is not necessarily hereditary. The presence of these marks is due to incomplete migration of melanocytes during development. This is why you can have pups born with white marks on the chest, even though the dam, sire, and previous generations won't have had the white marks.

Biology time (I'm a molecular biologist--bear with me)! Melanocytes, which are cells that produce pigment (such as the baguette/golden rust/whatever you want color of our Vs), migrate from the neural crest during embryonic development. The neural crest is basically a precursor to the spinal cord. The cells have to migrate the farthest to reach places like the chest or the toes (those aren't formed yet, but the tissue that will become those structures is). Sometimes during development there is a delay--maybe the mom got a tiny cold, something that wasn't even symptomatic. Maybe something stressed her and her developing pups. Maybe one developing pup was in a weird, less-than-ideal spot in the womb, while the others were unaffected. Or there could be some other reason that scientists and breeders have not yet elucidated. But for whatever reason, the migration might be delayed, resulting in some areas of the developing dog that lack melanocytes, and thus lack pigmentation in their fur that grows from that area. At a certain point in development, if the tissue lacks melanocytes, it will lack them forever, so if migration was delayed and the cells never got there...boom. White. This is why you often see those white spots on the chest and/or toes. Whether or not the rate of melanocyte migration is hereditary remains to be seen. 

For now, these marks are considered incidental, which is why a small amount is permissible on the chest and/or toes in the conformation ring. The marks have no influence on other qualities of the dog, such as sound body structure, trainability, eagerness, temperament, and/or hunting ability, and so they would not be a limiting factor in the field.
[/quote]

VERY interesting RedRover... I have no problem with the allowed amount of white (can't recall what the amount is... I know it can't go past the first knuckle on toes.. and believe it is something around the size of a quarter for the chest)... it happens, I get that. And after hearing your scientific explanation I now hold it against the breeders slightly less. And i totally agree that it does not affect the quality of dog overall, it is simply part of the coat/color standard that is partly out of their hands. And as I mentioned in my previous post about color, if my dog did not fit standard I would not love it any less. I would be bummed as I could't compete, but at the same time knowing I wanted to compete I would have purchased a puppy that fit obvious outward standards, and I would expect any breeder to want as much for those that conform. In anycase, what really irks me is when the white is WAAAAY beyond what standard dictates and yet people enter and compete their dog in AKC sanctioned events... and are allowed to. I see it all the time with field trial vizslas. While I would be bummed if mine was an amazing hunter but had too much white, I would still hunt my dog just not even try to compete. And honestly I wouldn't breed either. But that is me, and my choice... I know not everyone agrees. 

Thanks again for the scientific explanation.


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## texasred

I sent Calum a message this morning concerning the link to the kennel.
Thank you



harrigab said:


> reneevanm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, I am new to this forum and still trying to understand how it works. Unfortunately I can't seem to find the posts and be able to directly reply to them to answer questions.
> 
> Another female is in the pipeline for this location, she is getting hunt trained and will have her Hungarian Jr Championship too upon arrival, "B" litter of Origin Country will be in the fall 2013. Our Nevada affliliate will be in production early next year too!
> 
> In answer to the person who attached a photo and asked "has anyone seen a litter where all the puppies were the same color and not some light and others dark?" My answer is YES and am attaching a photo of Citera's litter. All the puppies are all the same color.
> 
> When you know the bloodlines like the palm of your hand AND you have had the opportunity to personally inspect, observe and assess ALL the individual dogs on the pedigrees on multiple occassions and you have a long track record of successful breeding you are a Master Breeder you can expect a have a high degree of uniformity and consistency within the litter. It does not come by chance, though mother nature may still on occasion throw you a curved ball. This skill and accomplishment separates the chaff from the wheat. I put my trust in the ethical and competent Master Breeders.
> 
> I_* do not know the policy of the forum regarding advertising, I saw the redbirddogblog URL and saw this as an obvious breeder so thought it was ok to have a signature also. *_ Please advise what is and is not allowed and where the rules are so i can read them....Oops, it was probably in the agreement I accepted but did not read, haven't we all done that some time or another? Anyways, I will have an educational blog up and running soon as the website is finalized, it is a lot of work and I am always deciding to add another feature or service, setting back the completion date even more.
> reneevanm
> 
> 
> 
> I've been removing the signature link as I saw it as "back door" advertising, just got back from a long weekend away so I'll find a link to the rules for your perusal when I get caught up. In the meantime if you'd like to change your signature that would be appreciated
Click to expand...


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## lilyloo

So, I know nothing about well, anything when it comes to this stuff... but aren't many darker "rust" colored V's champions?

For example, our Ruby's great, great grandfather is Konner (GCH CH Renaissance Lord Of Th'Dance SH) and he's definitely not light colored...and he is known as the top winning Vizsla. ???

I am sure there are many other example of this, I just know if this particular dog because he is on Ruby's dad's pedigree.


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## hotmischief

Wow, all this talk about shades of "Golden Russett" - isn't that the beauty of the breed? I have to agree with Ken, the shade of my Vizsla would be the last thing on my list, I would be much more concerned about health, temperament, confirmation,etc when selected a puppy.

My suggestion would be to bake those baguettes a deeper shade or springle paprika on for REM as he is color blind  I think we all love the colour of our Vizslas, don't we ???


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## R E McCraith

Reneev - Thank you for POINTING out RBD runs a puppy mill LOL - all of your research into the V - yet none into this forum - the only good thing is your post pointed out that it's so important that you find a great hobby breeder - but if you read this forum you would already know that!


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## texasred

Maybe its just me but I like breeders/trainers dogs to stand on their own merits. I don't find it appealing for them to put other good breeders down in order to try and make themselves look better. I love seeing other people do well and post pictures of the dogs accomplishments. I try to stay away from people that always have some thing nasty to say about their competitors .


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## WillowyndRanch

> what really irks me is when the white is WAAAAY beyond what standard dictates and yet people enter and compete their dog in AKC sanctioned events... and are allowed to. I see it all the time with field trial vizslas.


I don't understand why one who owns a purebred, DNA'd, registered Vizsla should be disallowed and discouraged from ANY _performance_ event based on a coat color fault. The purpose of the performance events is to judge the aptitude of the dog, not the beauty of it. I personally know of a DNA'd NVA National field champion who was not allowed to compete at the VCA Nationals because of a color coat fault, yet his full siblings could... 

Conversely, should a Sporting dog prove it's ability to Sport prior to being allowed to enter conformation shows? 

Ken


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## redbirddog

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/06/white-markings-on-vizsla.html

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/06/more-hunt-or-less-white-what-would-you.html

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/06/i-am-fascinated-by-vizsla-history.html


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## harrigab

renee, will you please cease flouting the rules with your signature, I can delete them all day long, but tbh I have better things to do.


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## reneevanm

Can someone tell me how to "change a signature" haven't a clue, do not want to break any rules here.


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## R E McCraith

Har - Thank You - saw at the beginning of this thread it was just an advertisement - the forum members are just to nice - that's why I love them!


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## harrigab

reneevanm said:


> Can someone tell me how to "change a signature" haven't a clue, do not want to break any rules here.


looks like you've done it, but tbh, I'm that whacked from my w/end away that i can't for sure remember if it was a signature or just a plug at the end of each post.


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## reneevanm

How do I reply to an individual post that asked a specific question? Is there anyway?


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## harrigab

reneevanm said:


> How do I reply to an individual post that asked a specific question? Is there anyway?


if you click on "quote" in the post it will put the post you want to reply to in a new box, at the end of the original post you'l see [/quote]...I click "enter" at the end of this as it starts a new paragraph for you to reply. Then just click the post button outside the text box.


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## harrigab

have we any pics of a 1000 year old french yellow baguette? maybe it was a slightly different colour a millennium ago?...just a thought. Is this shade also true for wire haired vizslas too?


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## AKGInspiration

WillowyndRanch said:


> what really irks me is when the white is WAAAAY beyond what standard dictates and yet people enter and compete their dog in AKC sanctioned events... and are allowed to. I see it all the time with field trial vizslas.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand why one who owns a purebred, DNA'd, registered Vizsla should be disallowed and discouraged from ANY _performance_ event based on a coat color fault. The purpose of the performance events is to judge the aptitude of the dog, not the beauty of it. I personally know of a DNA'd NVA National field champion who was not allowed to compete at the VCA Nationals because of a color coat fault, yet his full siblings could...
> 
> Conversely, should a Sporting dog prove it's ability to Sport prior to being allowed to enter conformation shows?
> 
> Ken
Click to expand...

This will probably get me bitten but so be it. I can totally see both sides of this argument, and I guess in the end it comes down to what I would do if I owned a dog that was not standard to the breed. I personally would not even compete in either hunt or show venues. I would be happy enough simply training and hunting with my dog personally. When it comes down to it a good dog in the field is pretty easy to determine, based on the guidelines of each hunter... I don't need a judge to tell me my dog can hunt. I got into the hunt tests as a means of enjoying my dog in the field, being able to watch others do the same... and in the end the titles might help towards breeding her if I determined she was a benefit to the breed later on down the road... So there was no point in not competing as I planned to most likely breed her if she did well... so here we are, getting ready to enter her back into the field finally for SH this fall. Long overdue but that is not her fault but my own procrastinating self's 

Having said that, what is the point in competing against others that are top in their field if you would not breed your dog, if it was one of those top in the field too?? Which I would _not_ do if it had so much white on it, that it was obviously not within breed standard. Again that is my choice and for my own reasons/feelings and what I feel is benefiting the breed. Sure it may not be based on genetics past a point, but for me I wouldn't even take the risk as why put more white out there when there are plenty of others who are just as qualified outwardly and of good quality in the home and field. I would leave it up to them to compete for what I like to call "breeding rights." And yes I realize some people don't go into it wanting to breed their dog but actually enjoy the competition and watching their dog hunt. Heck that was half the reason I got into it, but as you probably well know it is very expensive and there comes a limit to funds too.

Coat color and markings is largely luck of the draw, but if from early on if I could see my dog was not standard I wouldn't even try and compete it. I would continue to train it for what we enjoyed doing but I would leave the competing to others who IMO are more qualified to be bred to further the standard, IF the people chose to do so. 

As far as whether a sporting dog should be able to prove that it can sport/hunt before entering a show... I am ALL for that! I personally hate how there are distinctions between "show dogs" and "hunting dog" within these sporting breeds. It is certainly more RARE for a show dog to be able to sport too, but there are more than you think out there. My girl being one of them, she has her CH in the ring _and_ titles in the field. Her mother and grandmother are the same, as is her father... and many brothers/sisters and uncles/aunts. 
I can value the hunt that is bred into a "field bred" Vizsla, really I admire it... but I think if anything we should strive _more_ for those dogs that not only fit the standard but can _also _sport. Then IMO we would be doing this truly versatile breed justice. I would have been more than happy to pass a simple JH test before I ever entered the field. It is an easy test but at least shows that the dog has a nose and a desire for the sport to a degree...
I _have_ seen AKC take one step towards acknowledging these "show dogs" that also hunt... with the newer introduction of the "hunting dog" class. This allows a dog that has passed a FC or HT leg of any kind to enter into this class. The winner of the class goes straight in to compete for breed. So it is a way to bypass some of the quantity of dogs and politics you find... to give hunting dogs a better chance.

In the end everything comes down to personal preference and what our opinion of standard are... and whether a dog should be bred or not.. and why... etc etc. I am not here to change minds, but maybe share a side someone had not thought of before they put more vizslas out there.


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## veifera

Renee: what is the meaning/purpose of this paragraph on your website?



> *W A N T E D*
> 
> Tough, determined and dedicated individuals who believe a breed standard is there to be followed and who might be interested in possible breeding/employment/income opportunities. Very little initial investment. Previous breeding or dog experience desirable but not necessary. Must love Vizslas or versatile hunting breeds. Email [email protected] for more information.


http://countryoforiginvizslas.com/breeders-corner/

Thanks!


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## redbirddog

Nice job Veifera. Guess I can figure it out from here even with only finishing Biology 101 and Economics 101. 

RBD


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## reneevanm

I believe any dog, not even a purebred can enter and participate in AKC performance events, such as obedience, ralley and agility. Was announced in a kennel club meeting months ago. Entries are way up in performance events and steadily going down in conformation events. I am sure it won't be long before any dig will be able to be entered in HT and Field Trials, after all it does not matter what a dog looks like as long as he can hunt. That is sure to increase entries for the AKC and that is really what they care about.


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## Darcy1311

Thank god our Vizsla's don't have to choose their owners.......we would be a lonely bunch...what with all our faults and various in bred issues....


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## WillowyndRanch

> when there are plenty of others who are just as qualified


That may well be the answer. If the genetic lineage in a dog who has a stamped white patch on a foot above the phalanges are so much stronger or much _MORE qualified _ afield than an "outwardly" correct specimen, is it benefitting the breed as a whole to dismiss an exceptional dog from an exceptional line from the breeding pool, knowing that a white touch dog can also throw solid pups of great health, mind and temperment? 



> In the end everything comes down to personal preference


I concur completely. I think we should let each other pursue our dreams as supportive Vizsla owners without discrimination and degradation based on a color of a toe or a splash of white or not on a chest. 
Ken


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## harrigab

reneevanm said:


> I believe any dog not even a purebred can enter and participate in AKC performance events. Was announced in a kennel club meeting months ago. Entries are way up in peformance events and steadily going down in conformation events.
> 
> 
> (is that ok for a signature?, please advise...)


still trying to steer towards your website....I'm sure training my dog is easier


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## AKGInspiration

WillowyndRanch said:


> when there are plenty of others who are just as qualified
> 
> 
> 
> That may well be the answer. If the genetic lineage in a dog who has a stamped white patch on a foot above the phalanges are so much stronger or much _MORE qualified _ afield than an "outwardly" correct specimen, is it benefitting the breed as a whole to dismiss an exceptional dog from an exceptional line from the breeding pool, knowing that a white touch dog can also throw solid pups of great health, mind and temperment?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the end everything comes down to personal preference
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I concur completely. I think we should let each other pursue our dreams as supportive Vizsla owners without discrimination and degradation based on a color of a toe or a splash of white or not on a chest.
> Ken
Click to expand...

Kinda missing what I said I think, if all else was the same between the two dogs BESIDES the presence of _too much_ white, I personally would breed the one that had no white. Yes I understand they can still throw solid pups, but when the option is there i would still choose the conformationally sound one... when temp, hunt, mind are all the same. I am not saying rule out dogs that are exceptional, I totally get that.. I personally would not breed a dog no matter how amazing it was if it had such an obvious breed standard DQ. I am specifically talking about dogs with more than just white toes... with chests that are nearly half white... not minor little bits of white. And again when comparing two dogs who still have the brains, temp, and hunt... I will always value a dog that has all that over a dog who is just pretty. But ideally you should be able to have both, and breed for both. I understand sometimes this means you have to breed the less than ideal conformation, but I personally wouldn't do it.

Lol this is why I don't do forums, it gets me going too much. I am exposed to enough frustrations (as I am sure you are too willow) having my career in the dog world. In the end I am all for anyone who trains their dog, fulfills them as dogs and loving members of the family. Outward image will always come second to mind, temp, and character... It is not the look of the Vizsla that pushed me to pick this breed, it is all that is behind it.


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## redbirddog

> Lol this is why I don't do forums, it gets me going too much. I am exposed to enough frustrations (as I am sure you are too willow) having my career in the dog world. In the end I am all for anyone who trains their dog, fulfills them as dogs and loving members of the family. Outward image will always come second to mind, temp, and character... It is not the look of the Vizsla that pushed me to pick this breed, it is all that is behind it.


Anna,

95% of the time we are much nicer. Some folks just get us going.

I've had to take "vacations" a couple times and I CAN NOT do Facebook.

Rod


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## WillowyndRanch

No offense....

meant. 
I tend to get much deeper into a subject than many, so to keep the discussion light and simple, butterflies and sunshine, I've removed my response and will leave it at that.

Hope no hard feelings.

Have a great evening everyone!

Ken


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## Crazy Kian

Goodness this thread turned into a hate for the OP. 
Since when did HVF become this way. This is why a few members from the past have left. 

Give it a rest people and move on. 

I can't even believe moderators stand for such crap.... WTH?


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## texasred

Oquirrh said:


> Now can we start posting pictures of our "perfect" pups that DO have white on them?! Please, please! ;D


I thought we already could.
I have plastered pictures of Cash on at least 3 different forums.
He has a small what spot on his chest. I picked him over the 3 other males that had no white markings. ;D


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## zigzag

low tail set, moderate rear angulation. What is that exactly? I would like to see a comparison photo.


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## AKGInspiration

WillowyndRanch said:


> No offense....
> 
> meant.
> I tend to get much deeper into a subject than many, so to keep the discussion light and simple, butterflies and sunshine, I've removed my response and will leave it at that.
> 
> Hope no hard feelings.
> 
> Have a great evening everyone!
> 
> Ken


No offense taken Ken, takes more than a white mark debate to get me riled. No need to remove a post on my account, I am not new to forums and how downhill threads can go lol. And honestly I rather have people have an educated well thought out opinion than none at all, or one that is flippant and stolen from someone else. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even in the dog world... and even Vizsla owners. Please don't keep it butterflies and sunshine unless it's on the account of my dog... she likes to chase those. 

RBD- I think facebook needs you  But really, it's pretty doable. I just follow a bunch of people I don't agree with often so I can see what the "other side" is up to. I am so ready to be out of this field of work though. So i can better enjoy my own dogs and say to heck with what others think of my methods... they don't know me or my dogs well enough to judge.


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## redbirddog

*Correct hungarian vizsla color.*

Maybe we should let this thread end here. CORRECT is a loaded emotional word open to interpetation. I have watched like threads on other list serves go nuts for days on color of the Vizsla and have many people "yelling" over the internet at each other. Crazy Kian; I agree. Let's move on. 

I enjoyed the information but will never enjoy the on-line marketing used by anyone. No one comes here to be sold.

zigzag, could you start maybe another thread on "low tail set?"

Just a thought. This forum and stress should never have to be used in the same sentence.

RBD


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## OttosMama

I'm very late to this thread - I have been following but no time to remark - on a positive note: *redrover*, if you're still there, I loved "biology time!" I wish you taught genetics back when I was in school!


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## Ozkar

Wow... ho did I miss this storm in a tea cup ????   

Ozkar has a small white blaze on his chest and he's got more Hungarian blood in him than most Hungarians   Astro has not a mark, but is way too big for the breed. I don't give a flying you know what. We play, we train, we love, we hunt. We are happy and that's where it ends for me.


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## Oquirrh the V

TexasRed said:


> Oquirrh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now can we start posting pictures of our "perfect" pups that DO have white on them?! Please, please! ;D
> 
> 
> 
> I thought we already could.
> I have plastered pictures of Cash on at least 3 different forums.
> He has a small what spot on his chest. I picked him over the 3 other males that had no white markings. ;D
Click to expand...

If you notice, I deleted that post.  I didn't want to 'start' anything else, basically, I was just being a smart ass.  But yep, my boy has a white spot also. ;D


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## reneevanm

zigzag said:


> low tail set, moderate rear angulation. What is that exactly? I would like to see a comparison photo.


For comparison photos you can go to this link: http://katavizs.com/breeding.htm There are a few excellent photos of moderate rear anguation there.

THIS IS NOT MY WEBSITE

scroll down about some photos down and click. You can also google search photos of european line doberman pinschers and you can see what extreme rear angulation looks like. THESE PHOTOS WERE NOT PUT UP BY ME

THIS IS NOT MY WEBSITE and a member asked for a comparison.


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## datacan

Maybe someone forgot to reset the white balance on the camera. Some of those pictures are not too good. 

Having said that our dog 50% Hungarian, 50% Americanized Vizsla (sire from US, dame from Hungary). Bred by Hungarian breeder here in Canada. 
Cannot complain, I like my dog. Never cared about shade but now that it came up, light brown seems right. 

Also, I believe climate makes quite a difference over 3 generations, for instance. The darker coat may have started off light but darken over time as the breed adapts to the new climate. In Canada, I expect lighter colored Vizslas since winters are harsher than in Hungary. In Australia, the coat may turn darker, blame the sun.

Something else, if I wash our dog, I notice his coat turn a little darker the next day... :-\

Now, reneevanm, if you have said, there is a cultural component in raising these dogs, maybe that would make a Hungarian Vizsla real Hungarian


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## redbirddog

http://youtu.be/oo7Q8A60yTM


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## LaVidaLoca

My french baguette-Vizsla ( who's breeder won the World Champion title 2011 in Paris ) has been a little bit too long in the oven ;D 
On her pedigree certificate is written: _russet gold_ and I love her just the way she is.... 
....and to be honest - I don't like baguette bread when it's not baked right ( too light and like sponge ) ...I like it golden - crunchy


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## Hbomb

To be honest not many people know what Hercules' colour actually is. That's because when they meet him, he is usually covered in mud!! ;D


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## born36

I thought everyone was worried about Isaac. This storm blew in an surprised us all!

I love my Mac and he is exactly the colour he should be. I would say his colour is defined as Mac with a shade of Mac.

Thanks and also a litter of puppies with different shades means little as you can't tell a pups true colour for some months and hey different shades for different pups make them all the better.


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## harrigab

Crazy said:


> Goodness this thread turned into a hate for the OP.
> Since when did HVF become this way. This is why a few members from the past have left.
> 
> Give it a rest people and move on.
> 
> _*I can't even believe moderators stand for such crap.... WTH?*_


I did keep asking but didn't want to resort to "the last resort".


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## flynnandlunasmom

All I know is that after reading this thread yesterday, I went home last night and looked at my 2 vizlsas and I was overcome by feelings of love for them. I thought to myself "they're absolutely incredible and I wouldn't want them any other way!"


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## dmp

Aoife's colour:


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## dmp

Lighting plays in, too


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## OttosMama

Love the pics, DMP! Good to have you back


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## reneevanm

threefsh said:


> "BAGUETTE" may be the ideal color, but have you ever seen a litter of puppies with all the same shade? Riley's siblings were all different shades from *almost* too light (he actually darkened up as he aged


Yes I have seen litters where all the pups were the same color. 
Here is a photo of Citeras litter, do not know which is her. They look awfully light but Citera darkened up as she aged, so I imagine her littermates did so also. The other photo is of her on the day she was assessed and temperament tested. I wish I could have been there. I have another photo stuck in an email somewhere that I have not uploaded to my computer where the entire litter is out walking in the snow covered country road outside the house, so cute, I'll see if i can dig it up. 
reneevanm


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## reneevanm

R said:


> - you must be from Hungary and a big pain n the ass to me -


I am not Hungarian, I am American and have never been in Hungary nor lived in any country in Europe. Wish I could win the lottery and go visit Citera's country of origin for the World Dog Show in Budapest next spring. I was in Europe for 10 days in 1999 but just Belgium, Holland and Luxemburg, we drove over the border into France but had to turn back when ran into an unmanned toll highway, we had no francs...this was before the euro. I really liked the pastry shops in Belgium, they were to die for and they had these "lunch" type wagons in the street that served nothing but french fries fried in peanut oil and with about 20 different sauces, not just ketchup. They are crazy for fries there, this is why call fries "french" fries, never really knew why fries were called "french" til then.

I have friends in Hungary who have offered to take me on the hunt of a "lifetime". There is a slide show on utube of the hunt but do not know if it is permissible to post it here so I won't.


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## reneevanm

AKGInspiration said:


> Can you post/translate what it says about any white markings? I would be interested to see what they might say about that, and what has been lost in translation.


"A little white patch on the chest or at the throat, not more than 5 cm in diameter, as well as white markings on the toes are not considered faulty." 

is the accurate translation, I think it is the same.

In the FCI translation there was something that always bugged me because it did not make sense to me.

FCI standard says 
GAIT/MOVEMENT: The typical gait is an animated, light-footed trot, elegant and far reaching, with much drive and corresponding reach. NOT EXHAUSTING gallop when working in the field. 

The accurate translation says: 
GAIT/MOVEMENT : The typical gait is an animated, light-footed trot, elegant and far reaching, with much drive and corresponding reach. PERSISTENT gallop when working in the field. 

Just seeing the correct translation of that sentence just made me feel better,

reneevanm


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## harrigab

reneevanm said:


> R said:
> 
> 
> 
> - you must be from Hungary and a big pain n the ass to me -
> 
> 
> 
> I am not Hungarian, I am American and have never been in Hungary nor lived in any country in Europe. Wish I could win the lottery and go visit Citera's country of origin for the World Dog Show in Budapest next spring. I was in Europe for 10 days in 1999 but just Belgium, Holland and Luxemburg, we drove over the border into France but had to turn back when ran into an unmanned toll highway, we had no francs...this was before the euro. I really liked the pastry shops in Belgium, they were to die for and they had these "lunch" type wagons in the street that served nothing but french fries fried in peanut oil and with about 20 different sauces, not just ketchup. They are crazy for fries there, this is why call fries "french" fries, never really knew why fries were called "french" til then.
> 
> I have friends in Hungary who have offered to take me on the hunt of a "lifetime". _*There is a slide show on utube of the hunt but do not know if it is permissible to post it here so I won't.*_
Click to expand...

No problem with that Renee, feel free to post it


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## Mz Mud

WillowyndRanch said:


> Renee,
> It's definitely apparent you have a niche selected for your breeding program. I only note one female on your website, and wonder to myself how much is marketing and how much is actually a breeding program. Regardless, I truly do wish you all the luck and success in the world.
> 
> In my opinion, I think that limiting the Vizsla of today to only the dogs left in Hungary is a disservice to the breed as a whole. Limiting the gene pool to one microcosm of the globe where the breed was virtually extinguished would give me pause. The push for Breeding for "color" is the ruination of many breeds.
> Every breed develops and changes throughout time and location dependent upon the desires of those who support and compete in the breed. For example, A Vizsla in the Western US where expanses are vast and game is different will likely be somewhat variant from one that is bred for tight woods and different game in Europe. In my opinion, that diversity helps the breed, not hinders it. Having different types to breed to allows one to breed back in lost aspects without having to outcross to another breed. These lost variables happen in any breed and breeding program over time. Even the "Masters" of the breed will change or alter the breed over time to successfully work in the ever changing landscape of our world. I like that there are variations within a central Vizsla theme.
> 
> Personally, I'll look to breed for Health, temperment, brains, natural field ability and the like. Color is last on my list.
> Give me an intelligent, strong, healthy mahogany dog with a high head and high tailset, white on his toes and a flash on his chest that can hold a covey of grouse on the Praire at 30 yards on a windy October morning and retrieve from the brambles or pond anyday.
> I'll Happily Toast him with Pálinka and eat my baguette.
> 
> Ken


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## Rudy

This is a really funny and a real thinker

Time out please lol

Yes dna and blood matter about half

All wildlife colors match there natural placement of births sun and temps matter as well, food choices

how long are the days temps, how hot , moon, even rain fall or extreme snows 

natural lands and food choices they have or have not

Humans are impacted by this as well location exposure and diet and lifestyle choices


Grade 1 all these advancing educators and live stock breeders :

Diet choices matter more on all living things even fish  such as rich orange shrimp as one of there main food supply and feeding example

there food supplies the supplements have a far greater impact over time 

and fawns are fine

We like Richer Reds

Krill, fresh salmon real daily the great Omega 3 and tons more supported there colors not just there DNA

Rudy is 20 x Bolder deep red then any of his litter mates and there were 10 pups.

Then the others I have seen 5 they are very dull which is fine 

Willows breeder and litter mates we speak daily 

there are a much softer then Her by 3 shades month 5 in Reds

I love comics and the funny papers 

Over time supplements and food choices matter more

Reds

facts not puffer


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## texasred

I thought this thread had died and gone away.
It was a new breeder touting, why her dogs are better than any bred in the US. She was only here to sell puppies, and try to get people to import through her breeder.


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## datacan

so far off topic, it hurts...HD Underwater filming in Antarctica 

http://youtu.be/naO1zxhiVWg

Emperor Penguins, are the Vizsla of the South Pole? :-\


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## Nelly

Amazing data! Narrated by Hilary Swank caught me off-guard!


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## datacan

Yep, girl's got a great smile, LOL


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## Adrienn

Hiya.im living in Scotland and i have 2 vizslas .One is a cross HV and HWV and her coat is darker what is supposed to be but my other vizsla who is from Hungary is a proper vizsla colour.My plan is to show my girl in the UK but being french roll yellow colour probably nobody will like it because most of the vizslas here are really dark and they prefer that reddish dark ginger colour which is not a Hungarian vizsla colour.Im being Hungarian and proud of this beautiful breed but the breed standard should change in the UK because its not russet gold and ginger and all the whatever colour.


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