# Resource Guarding or Asserting Dominance? Both?



## Ohohraptor (Feb 7, 2012)

Hello! So I've only posted a few times but I am a long time lurker of the forums. 

My name is Mallory and our family just got a v pup. Right from picking him up from the breeder at 8.5 weeks, the breeder mentioned he "growled when he was moved when sleeping". It didn't take long before I saw this for myself, but I chalked it up to him just not wanting to be moved and he was just expressing his annoyance. Well about a week ago, his growling turned into snapping at my husband and I. We have tried making sure he is fully awake before moving him as to not surprise him and we only move him when we have to (we are leaving the house, it's time to go to his crate, etc). He has only showed this behavior on the bed and couch but thats really the only place he sleeps besides his crate (and he always is more than willing to leave his crate).

We have asked advice from his vet, breeder, two trainers, and the president of the local vizsla club. We have been told multiple ways of dealing with this including alpha rolling, luring him off the couch with a treat, pushing him with a pillow, and putting him on a lead and pulling him off the couch and/or correcting him with a choke collar and a firm "off" when he growls. We have been using the lead with choke collar thing since yesterday, and we seem to be making some progress but I guess it's still to early to tell. 

We have been reading about the NILIF technique and it really resonated with me. He is last to eat, walk through the door, and we are now working on only letting him come up on the couch when he is invited. He sleeps in a crate but used to nap in the bed with me, that privilege has now been revoked as well. 

I started with the lead training this morning. First time he growled once, I pulled the lead enough to get his attention (no he was not hurt) and he gave me those scared puppy eyes. I said "off" and nudged him with my hand again, he growled a second time and he was swiftly pulled off the couch with the lead. He accepted it this time and slept on the floor. The second time he woke up on his own but was still a little sleepy. I gave the "off" command and nudged him. He seemed reluctant but did not growl when he was removed from the couch. Success! I paised him and gave him a treat. I am pretty tickled with myself right now since I was told to get rid of the dog by a few people. However we will keep trying this to make sure he gets it. 

My main question is why is he doing this? Is he resource guarding? I read that this is usually genetic and born into dogs, which would make sense since he exhibited this behavior from the get go. If this is resource guarding, am I training him correctly? I've read opposing arguments. Could he be trying to assert his dominance this early?(he's 12 weeks now) Perhaps we were not displaying proper pack leadership qualities? He is otherwise very submissive. We can all (including my 3 year old son) take any toy, bully stick, or food away from him without a fuss. He regularly rolls on his back when we pet him (even my son!). He will also immediately submit to most dogs but is also a hard player and confident pup. If he is asserting his dominance, are we training him correctly?

I am all for positive training methods and have used that way of training in his basic obedience, however I am also inclined to believe that he views us as his pack and because of that we should correct him as a normal dog pack would. Also, if this is resource guarding from some sort of genetic trait, can we get rid of this completely? I had hopes of him becoming a therapy dog one day and obviously want to make sure my son can interact with him as well without him getting grumpy. 

Okay, novel finished! If any of you read all that I will be very appreciative, lol!


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Mallory,
12 weeks old is very young. You sound like you have a driven Hungarian Pointer on your hands. That is a good thing if you can channel that energy. 

You have gotten much advice and like all free advice its value is what it cost.

I didn't see puppy classes yet in your story but that would be my next step. Not your local pet store class but I'd spend the extra money for a really good class taught by someone who understands the kind of dog you own. NILF will be your best bet with an assertive dog. I don't think I would let an assertive dog on a bed or couch for at least a year or two. The ground is where the dog belongs, especially with a 3 year old. Never letting your dog in a "superior" position to anyone.

Dogs don't think like we do. Black and white and never shades of gray. If it is right to do now, it should always be right. If it is wrong now, it must always be wrong. Maybe a list on the refrigerator of "not allowed" actions. This includes all humans that your dog comes in contact with. 

Treats by the bucket load. And not cheap treats. Get the good stuff. But a treat is not a meal. A treat may be 1/4" square of dried liver. Your dog will do anything for that. At 12 weeks old, use treats for lots of things and praise correct action. Never yell. Never. It lowers your ranking in the dog's mind. Calm and assertive. Dog doesn't do something you want. Correct right then. Your window of correction is just a few seconds. One command at a time. Dog does it, treat. I watch people give a dog three commands in a row. " Sit, down, come" and then treat. ?????? Dog has no idea why he got the treat.

I'd get a copy of Ian Dunbar's puppy training books. He is very positive and writes in understandable language.

Also my favorite dog book is "A Dog's Purpose." Worth a read. Sounds like you have a purpose in mind for your dog. Will that satisfy his purpose? Vizslas can be calm but they were not breed to be calm submissive dogs. They were breed to be bush busting, hard charging hunting dogs. You might have one that has those dominate genes. How to channel that energy will be your challenge and your purpose in giving your pup the life he deserves.

Long winded answer. Came in from working in the yard and it is hot. Sitting by the AC and thought I'd let my fingers do some work as I cool down.

Hope there was something in this that will help. Again, advice is free and worth every penny. A professional dog trainer doing puppy classes will be your best investment. 

Happy trails,
RBD


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Don't worry Orthoraptor... you're not alone. Many of us had to face these little red daemons and came out alive and happy. I learned to be consistent, be patient and above all never loose my cool. 

P. S. they are food driven so they will do pretty much anything in exchange for fast/prompt food delivery service.

Enjoy, and read up on puppy training.


One more thing... dog training is not an indication of how successful we are in society.. well behaved dog does not necessarily mean the owner is successful in life and vice versa. I only mention it because sometimes we tend to over think matters. Patience and a good sense of humor go a long way with puppies.

Knowledge is power... and if things get out of hand... http://leerburg.com/ has lots of free information.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

It sounds like you are doing a lot of great things for him and honestly, if your current method is working - bravo!!! From what I have read and seen, you are on the right path! I agree with RBD that couch privileges should be immediately (and perhaps permanently) revoked. Invest in a comfy dog bed for the floor. I also recommend keeping your little boy on a leash attached to your waist while in the house. This way you have direct control over his behaviors. 

I have not had a lot of success with puppy classes (even with a good trainer). Most classes I have been in are more about educating the parents then the dog. You seem to be doing an amazing job educating yourself. I would recommend getting a certified animal behaviorist. I don't know what the certification is, but someone on here will. These trainers understand behavior to a greater degree than the average Joe, are much less common and have earned that certification. This would be the best person to ask those WHY questions to. They can better tell you the source of the growling/snapping. 

My uneducated .02: It doesn't sound like other types of resource guarding I have seen. It does remind me of something Oso does when he sleeps/barks. As Oso got older (maybe 5 months) he started barking while he was asleep. Ok, not sleep barking. Let me clarify. Even now, it is rare he starts to bark when he is awake. He will hear a sound, wake up and bark. We tell him thank you and then shush him and then he goes back to sleep. Perhaps this is a related behavior? His defenses are down and when he hears the sound, it startles him and makes him bark. It does sound like a genetic behavior, though. A trainer who knows there stuff should be able to help you more with that. I will be interested to see if he has this behavior while sleeping on the ground. It is certainly something to tackle immediately, which you obviously are doing. 

There are some people on this forum who have gone through different fear behaviors in their dogs and hopefully they will see this thread and jump on in. The good thing is that it sounds like your little boy is great in all other areas - wonderful!! 

A true animal behaviorist should be able to determine the root of the behavior and what the best approach is. I will see if I can find the certification and post it later. Seriously though, keep up the great work and I was happy to read your long post. I wish I could help a bit more.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Sounds like you have a good plan.
2x on RBDs advice.


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## adrino (Mar 31, 2012)

We had a similar thing happen with Elza (8 1/2 months old now). She is allowed on our sofa but not in our bedroom. 
So when she was just a few months old she was sleeping on the sofa while we were watching the TV and we moved her. I dont remember why we moved her but she growled. I wasnt happy about it but that's all she did just one growl. So I said to my partner she could just have been startled as she woke from a deep sleep. And then it happened again another time. Straight away we sent her off the sofa and made her sleep at our foot on her bed. We made sure that she's not allowed up without invitation and she's not allowed to play or go crazy on the sofa. Sofa time is relaxing-sleeping time only. If she tries to do anything else she's off. Anyway, this has only happened a few times (less than 5) and she learnt to accept that if we want to move her it's ok. 
It doesn't happen anymore, if I want her to move she will move without any bad reaction. She knows if I move a bit on the sofa while she's sleeping on my legs she has to go back to her blanket we have her on the sofa. 
Same with the food or toys, we can and could take those away. Although occasionally when she really wanted something she found she would growl. I made sure that we trained that out of her. 
One thing I suggest that you must not be afraid to move him or do whatever you want. Never pull your hand back or step back cause then he won. 

The only thing I wouldn't use though is a choke collar. I think at 12 weeks is way too early to introduce a vizsla to it and you should find alternative training methods instead of choking. As others suggested a leash on him all the time could be just your tool. 

Hope this gave you some insight that because of this growling doesn't mean you have an aggressive dog. Keep up the good training and be consistent. Your whole family has to do the same thing! 

Good luck


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## Ohohraptor (Feb 7, 2012)

redbirddog said:


> Mallory,
> 12 weeks old is very young. You sound like you have a driven Hungarian Pointer on your hands. That is a good thing if you can channel that energy.
> 
> You have gotten much advice and like all free advice its value is what it cost.
> ...


Thanks RBD, I was hoping you'd reply, as I always find your posts helpful. We do have him enrolled in puppy class but it's a petsmart and although the trainer has best intentions I don't think he understands that pushing him off the couch with a pillow will only cause him to attack the pillow. Not gonna work. We have contacted another trainer and are waiting for a call back so we can schedule some one on one time. 

We do not hunt now but my husband has been toying with the idea of starting, our pup comes from a strong hunting line and we think he would do great. I also planned on doing agility with him but did not mention it in my previous post since I didn't think his resource guarding (or whatever) would affect that aspect of training. 

I will look into those books, thanks for the recommendation!


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## Ohohraptor (Feb 7, 2012)

Thank you for all the replies! I have been worrying the past couple days and all your advice has helped so much. Heres a group reply so I don't clog up the post too much:

Datacan- Thanks for the reassurance. I have done extensive research on the breed but was getting discouraged because I have not had to deal with this kind of behavior before and have been advised by a few people to give him back because I have a small child in the house. Ridiculous. While obviously my son comes first, I am not going to even think about giving the pup up until I know exactly WHY the behavior is happening and I have exhausted the resources available to me. He has been exceptional at training when I have the right treat in hand, and I have lured him off the couch with promise of a bully stick, however I can't help but feel that isn't really addressing the problem and just kind of avoiding it. I suppose I could try teaching him "off" with the treat, and that could help. Gah there are so many ways of training, it's overwhelming at times!

luv2laugh- I'm not sure if it's the same. Blu can be fully awake and if he doesn't wanna move, he doesn't wanna move. We have noticed it mainly when he is asleep, but again we never have had problems getting him off the couch unless he is asleep, he will happily follow us wherever we go. He also seems to be developing issues with being picked up. He hasn't snapped but occasionally he will emit a small growl. We have been working on this with lots and lots of treats. I also would like to see if he'll do this when sleeping on the ground. Maybe I will try that tonight! I agree I think an animal behaviorist will be best, I will start googling to see where the closest one is around here. 

adrino- Yep this sounds very similar to what Blu does. I too am a little wary of the choke collar, but was told a normal collar will not get the message across. Perhaps I will try to just attach his leash to his normal collar and tug on that? I also agree we should be able to do anything with him, move him any which way etc. I am learning very quickly that the timing of the correction is vital. I got bit by him when he first starting this because I was shocked and not quick enough. 

Perhaps datacan is right, maybe I am over thinking this! I am definitely a worrier and have been obsessively trying to read up on this so I can nip it in the bud. I have been back and forward with whether all couch privileges should be revoked. This may or may not solve the problem, as I have yet to try to move him when he's on the floor. If this is a dominance issue I think it will probably be wise, but if he is resource guarding he is not (or so says my reading) trying to move up in the pack but it's just a genetic trait (great if he was a wild dog, but not so desirable in domestic situations!). I'm also conflicted on whether to purposely "set him up" so I can work on this with him or if I should only practice when I need to move him. Again, I am a worrier and probably over thinking this, but with a 3 year old in the house, this issue needs to be addressed NOW!


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Sorry, I did not realize you have a small child in the house.

www.leerburg.com/308.htm 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNQuqY1oXpE


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Out of my 3 Vs I only have one that would growl at you if he was sleeping as a puppy. I don't even mean trying to pick up a sleeping puppy, I mean disturbing a sleeping puppy.
The other two you could do anything with if they were resting, and they are still that way.
I knew the one was a strong willed pushy puppy before I purchased him, and was told by the breeder. Your breeder gave you a warning but I don't think you realised just what he was telling you. Did he know you had a young child?
You need to start putting this puppy in the kennel at the first sign of him being tired.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

does the term LET SLEEPING DOGS LIE ? come 2 mind ? he will grow out of it


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I agree with a lot of what RBD has said. But I would also add, that ANY type of aggressive response from pup needs to be dealt with swiftly and decisively. Astro tried this one twice as he was growing up. The first time, probably like you, I was a little shocked. The 2nd time it happened he was in bed with me. I gave him a swift and forceful push with my feet and pushed him out of the bed and onto the floor, I then gave him a stern no and did not let him back in. He now no longer growls when I move him, he just accepts it and moves to another place. 

As I said, you need to get this in check and he needs to understand it's not on. 

FWIW, this is one of those times where I go against my beliefs on dog training. I am usually quite relaxed, calm and more positive in my training outlook. However, ANY sign of aggression towards me from my dogs is met with very a swift and decisive physical response. It seems to have worked well on my three without any detrimental effects on their pshycy.


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## Ohohraptor (Feb 7, 2012)

datacan- No worries, thanks for sharing!

TexasRed- He doesn't seem to mind if he gets nudged or touched while sleeping, but definitely got grumpy when we tried to pick him up to move him to his crate. We don't do that anymore (cause who likes to be woken up that way) but if he's sleepy or tired he still is grumpy. I don't think I realized what he was telling me either, haha! Yes he knew we had a young child, we actually asked him to pick the puppy for us. Blu was the calmest/most submissive male so that's why he picked him for us. 

Ozkar- I absolutely agree. Aggressiveness will NOT be tolerated. He lives in MY house, not the other way around. I am so relieved some of you have gone through this as well. I have asked about this at the dog park/pet store in hopes I would get someone with firsthand experience but no one can seem to help me. I was actually told it would be "irresponsible" of me not to give the dog back since I have a child in the house. While I agree this behavior is not acceptable and seems to be very rare in a 12 week puppy, I'm sure it will get fixed.

Update: So after reviewing all the variables, I have come to the conclusion where I think he's resource guarding the couch. Besides the fact that he's a little young to be trying to assert his dominance, he is a very submissive puppy and isn't showing any other signs of trying to move up in the pack. He seems very content with being at the bottom. Also, the breeder told me that a few of his puppies from the same parents (different litters) have all done this, which makes me think it's a genetic trait that is unfortunately prominent in his lines. I got the book "Mine!" by Jean Donaldson and it's describing Blu to a tee. The guarding of the furniture, as well as the minor body handling issues. We worked on "off" quite a bit last night and I baited him to see if it would work. Let him sleep for about 30 minutes, then gently woke him up gave the "off!" command and he jumped up to sitting, paying full attention! It took another "off" and hand signal to get him off, but he seemed more than excited to do it. All of Donaldson's training is positive, which is great, and it worked better than I ever expected especially since I had only began working with the off command an hour or two previously, but I still wonder if this will eradicate the problem completely. Donaldson believes physically reprimanding a dog for resource guarding does more harm than good, since you are essentially proving the dog right that yes, his resources do indeed need to be guarded because us mean humans will try to take them away as soon as we come near. But if this were a pack situation and Blu tried to guard his sleeping spot from a higher ranking pack member, would that dog put up with it? Interesting argument, and I suppose great questions for the animal behaviorist. Pack structure and dog behavior is so interesting!

And here are some pictures since he wasn't formally introduced:


































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Perfect examples of the velcro dog! Haha!


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Very cute, thanks for posting the pictures. 

Between the breeder and this forum, you will find great advice from people who care ...eventually, the decision is yours. 
"Mine" by JD will serve the puppy well  just take extra caution with the dog around babies. 
And please make absolutely sure other dogs do not bite the puppy at dog parks. Better yet, only play with dogs that you choose and know are safe.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

My reasoning of crating him when he gets tired is to stop the toddler from disturbing him. A sleeping puppy is tempting to a young child, and it only takes the blink of an eye for things to go wrong.
Its better to err on the side of caution than to put a child in harms way. Puppy teeth are sharp and toddlers have tender skin.

You said this was a repeat breeding and some of the previous litter had the same problem. What insight did the breeder give you on the pups of the past litter after the puppy stage? Did he keep in contact with them and would he be willing to let you know what worked for them? If he is open enough will he contact them and ask if them if they will correspond with you.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

Blu is absolutely adorable. I am so glad that you have find a resource that is helping you and in the mean time you've provided the forum with a thread that will probably help people in the future.

I agree with TexasRed, see if you can contact other V owners who growled in their sleep. That could be extremely informative.


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## Ohohraptor (Feb 7, 2012)

TexasRed said:


> My reasoning of crating him when he gets tired is to stop the toddler from disturbing him. A sleeping puppy is tempting to a young child, and it only takes the blink of an eye for things to go wrong.
> Its better to err on the side of caution than to put a child in harms way. Puppy teeth are sharp and toddlers have tender skin.
> 
> You said this was a repeat breeding and some of the previous litter had the same problem. What insight did the breeder give you on the pups of the past litter after the puppy stage? Did he keep in contact with them and would he be willing to let you know what worked for them? If he is open enough will he contact them and ask if them if they will correspond with you.


The pups that the breeder kept were corrected with a scruff hold and firm "no!". There also was another pup from a previous litter that had the problem. I was told by the breeder that the issue was unfortunately not confronted and two years later the dog was severely possessive of his crate, the trash can, and even would jump onto the table and guard that! The owner also had a small child in the house and finally after two years asked the breeder to take the dog back :/. 

I agree about the crating. He takes one or two naps in his crate a day, sometimes we keep him on the floor and he sleeps in his bed, and occasionally on the couch, but never when my son is around or I cannot keep 100% attention on him.


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## Ohohraptor (Feb 7, 2012)

luv2laugh said:


> Blu is absolutely adorable. I am so glad that you have find a resource that is helping you and in the mean time you've provided the forum with a thread that will probably help people in the future.
> 
> I agree with TexasRed, see if you can contact other V owners who growled in their sleep. That could be extremely informative.


Thanks! He really is a good dog and is so eager to please, just a bit confused about who the couch belongs to.


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## Skyfly (Jul 18, 2012)

I have the same problem with my V. He's almost 4 months and a few weeks ago, he started growling when we try to remove him from the couch. We spoke to our trainer about this and she recommended we revoke his couch privilege. However, he still tries to climb the couch and recently when we tried to get him off, he hinted that he may bit and growled. We instantly removed him and we both sat on the couch while he remained on the floor whining. I felt that this was a good exercise as it showed him that he is not the dominant one in the pack and we will continue consistently set that message to him.

Another thing we were told to do is handle him while he's sleeping on the floor. If he growls while we do this, in which he has on a few occasions, we say no, and keep handling him until he stops. When he stops, he gets a treat. When we disturb his sleep and he doesn't growl, he gets a treat. Now he's at the point where he wags his tail when we wake him up. I think he's now starting to associate being woken up to be a positive experience, therefore has learnt to accept it. 

My theory is that some puppies can be more aggressive and territorial then others, but this does not mean that they cant be taught how to redirect this energy. It's all about consistency and being assertive. And we can't forget, they are puppies and will try to test the limits.


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## Ohohraptor (Feb 7, 2012)

Skyfly said:


> I have the same problem with my V. He's almost 4 months and a few weeks ago, he started growling when we try to remove him from the couch. We spoke to our trainer about this and she recommended we revoke his couch privilege. However, he still tries to climb the couch and recently when we tried to get him off, he hinted that he may bit and growled. We instantly removed him and we both sat on the couch while he remained on the floor whining. I felt that this was a good exercise as it showed him that he is not the dominant one in the pack and we will continue consistently set that message to him.
> 
> Another thing we were told to do is handle him while he's sleeping on the floor. If he growls while we do this, in which he has on a few occasions, we say no, and keep handling him until he stops. When he stops, he gets a treat. When we disturb his sleep and he doesn't growl, he gets a treat. Now he's at the point where he wags his tail when we wake him up. I think he's now starting to associate being woken up to be a positive experience, therefore has learnt to accept it.
> 
> My theory is that some puppies can be more aggressive and territorial then others, but this does not mean that they cant be taught how to redirect this energy. It's all about consistency and being assertive. And we can't forget, they are puppies and will try to test the limits.


This is great advice thank you! I think Blu's couch privileges will be revoked until further notice. I'm going to try the treat exercise you mentioned tonight. If we can teach Blu that it is a good thing to be woken up I will feel much safer with him around my son. How long did it take for him to get that far?


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## Skyfly (Jul 18, 2012)

Hi there, it took about two weeks for my V to really get the idea. 

Now bare with me as I've tried different approaches along the way. I felt that by revoking his couch privilege, I was still not correcting him on the spot! Here's a trick that was recommended to me by someone with lots of dog training experience! Step # 1, If blu growls when you try to get him off the couch, hold his face and look him in the eyes say NO. Keep looking at him in the eyes until he looks away, that way, you are showing him that you are the pack leader, once they look away, thats a sign of submission! Step # 2 try to get him off the couch by gently guiding him off using his collar and saying " let's go",or whatever command you are used to using, if he growls, repeat step 1 and 2 again, until you can successfully get him off the couch without a fuss! When he gets off, treat him! When I did this the first time, I had to repeat both steps three times, then he got the idea and never growled at me again! 

Every dog is different and everyone has different ideas and technics, but for me that's what worked and it was simple and effective. My V is now able to cuddle with us on the couch and removes himself on command! 

I hope this helps and my apologies for the late reply.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Loved the pic of Blu covered in mud  Very Cheeky!!  

I wouldn't get all hung up on this. It sounds like pretty normal stuff for dogs to do. Not saying to not address it, just saying that of the last ten or more dogs I have had, they ALL growled when disturbed initially. Not one ended up aggressive as an adult. To this day, I can move any of my dogs, or lay on them or push them around while they are asleep and they won't bat en eyelid. But, should one of the other dogs do it, then they get growled at. It's normal for the underlings to fight over things


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