# Stop to flush



## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

After much consideration. I have decided that I want my dog to hunt (Stop to flush) I don't mind if he breaks at the shot, he is a natural retriever and marks birds well. I don't plan to compete with this dog, personal hunting companion only. However I do not want to ruin his pointing instinct, I have noticed that the hunting I will be doing, forest Grouse and Pheasant on the west coast. Will test my ability and the dogs to remain steady to wing and shot. I like the idea of shooting birds that wild flush without turning my dog into a Spaniel. 

Pros and cons of this ideology?
Does this work to perserve the pointing instinct?
Would I still have a dog capable of handling birds that hold tight in cover?
Shooting birds that flush wild while dog Stops to flush, Is that what I should limit myself to on the hunt?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

If he is chasing the birds that flush early, teaching Stop To Flush would keep him from bumping other birds in the field while on chase.
As long as he is pointing most of the birds you shoot it shouldn't be a problem. If your shooting mostly bumped (early flusher) birds then you might be creating a problem.
He will learn he can crowd the bird and still get the retrieve.


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## bounce (Dec 4, 2009)

Many people use this as a tools to reinforce the pointing instinct and build drive without chase. (http://4imgs.com/1028/pdf/Equalizer.pdf) The whole Bill West approach goes from stop to flush to pointing allowing the birds to effectively train the dogs, using stop to flush. (http://steadywithstyle.com/)

my 2 cents: I would be nervous about the mixed signals, gunfire and birds falling is a reward for not pointing. More so, I would be nervous I would make a mistake and shoot birds the dog didn't stop for... 

Steady to shot vs steady to flush is a very small difference in training in my own opinion (where as, stop to flush is a little more advanced), and as TR suggests all are intended to prevent the bumping of more birds if you found a covey. Proponents for not requiring dogs to be steady to shot often cite the desire for lower levels of loss of game, the gun fire merely becomes the fetch command vs a whoa command.

Long and short, it is possible, but it may not be easy.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

The simple truth.

A well trained Pointing dog is like every other piece of sporting machinery, i.e boat, race car, plane, motocross bike. The commonality is that when you go out and play with them, you need to do maintenance. 

This advice will go against pretty much what every trainer will tell you. Hunt your dog the way YOU want to hunt. When the wheels get loose, pull her into the garage and tighten them up. That might be during the middle of the season, which is alright - then you work the dog and have your buddy do the gunning. Typically what happens is after several years you both find a common level of performance you and your dog can live with.

Stop to flush (STF) and steady to wing (STW) in my mind are very nearly the same thing. The only variant is that in steady to wing the dog is already stopped and standing, Steady to flush is that the wing means stop and stand. We teach Stand first, then go right to flying birds teaching the dog that the bird taking off means stop and stand. I think it's easier on the dog than when he's juiced up breathing scent on point to get the idea.

I want them to do both (STF & STW) primarily for safety reasons as many birds fly low. If gunners swing on a low bird and the dog is chasing, it's not uncommon for the dog to get hit with some pellets. The secondary reason for me is to keep the dogs energy focused and not wasted chasing birds they have no chance of bringing to bag. The third is bumping more birds while chasing, which they shouldn't do if they STF anyway.

As far as STF, I do a lot of that work as wild birds will flush often before the dog has an opportunity to point. I try to keep them steady to the shot too - especially on STF's. I make it a point to walk to them and give a physical release. It helps keep them in touch, calms them down between finds and keeps the handle on them.

Many good meat dogs learn through experience and actually steady up to the shot on their own, but break on the fall. In a hunting dog, I love that. That's a dog that knows what's going on. 

As Tex indicated, many shots with reward of a retrieve on STF's can degrade the point, especially on young inexperienced dogs, but that might be ok with you. If not, then you bring her into the shop and work on tightening up the point. It's always a balancing act to get and keep the dog to the performance level you're ok with. 

Basically, they're never truly "finished" until they're retired.

Ken


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