# Aggressive puppies



## pippylongstocking (May 21, 2012)

Does anyone have any experience of aggression in V pups? I have a gorgeous 4 month old, (our first vizsla) who is adorable. She will let you take her food and toys away with no problems, but gets very aggressive if we try and take something off her that she has found or shouldn't have in the house. These bites do break the skin and can be very painful. Not sure how best to deal with this situation. She is very young to be aggressive, and i worry about her biting as an adult. None of my other dogs ever bit us. She is due to start puppy training soon. Any suggestions?


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## Gingernutter (Dec 4, 2011)

I am sure some people won't like or agree with what I am about write but that's why this forum is great as we all have an opinion. Mylo showed me aggression once and that was also the last. I was trying to get him into his crate and he gave me a growl and snarl, I instantly picked him up pinned him on his back and growled back. The punishment was swift and firm but fair and I did not hurt him at all, he did however learn that I am Dad and boss. I love my boy as much as the next man but not sure I agree completely with some views of been so soft with the? I give him love all the time but if he's wrong or naughty then he gets a telling off and knows what he has done is wrong. I know some v owners will say been to verbally harsh will crumble a V... I have not found this. I do agree though that there is no place or need for physical punishment other than what I stated above. 

Like I say some won't agree and it's my opinion and what has worked for me.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

My favorite subject.... Puppy aggression in Vs 

First, I like the firm, fast response to his "aggression problems" GN posted. 
I don't personally like to pin the dog, but that's only my preference. 

The crate is your best friend in domesticating your wild pup. At that age basic obedience is OK to start taking seriously. Get a good trainer who can work one on one with you. The worst thing is to back off feel threatened when the puppy snapps at your hand. Backing off will simply teach the dog to escalate the response if it meets resistance. 

Please remember, stopping unwanted behaviors usually takes only 5 minutes/behavior. 
Learning constructive behaviors like heel and come when called under distractions, takes years.


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## pippylongstocking (May 21, 2012)

Thanks for the replies and response. We don't use any aggression, although she has on occasions had a tap on the nose and a telling off the instant she has been naughty. However, this aggression pops up out of the blue. Ester can be quite rough when she plays, but not aggressive, which is why it's hard to understand. As I said previously, she will let us take her food and toys, but if she finds a bit of tissue, sock, or any rubbish etc, this is when she bites. It's real aggression, and we usually respond by making a loud noise (due to the shock and pain), and put her in her crate for time out. I have booked a good trainer, so will see what she also advises. It's her only downside really, apart from being very vocal in the early hours and getting up at the crack of dawn! We all love her dearly, so hoping we can keep on top of this. Will keep you posted.


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## Darcy1311 (May 27, 2012)

Darcy is rough when she plays,but only with me,I find that when she is really tired she tries to fight the need for sleep and that's when she plays rough. Darcy will also jump on your knee in a form of total submission wagging her tail and backend frantically then all of a sudden for no reason she will give a growl....but when she realises what she has just done and goes back to wagging her tail and wiggling her backend.....real cute but very very strange..


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## pippylongstocking (May 21, 2012)

It's not just my dog that's strange then! It's so good to talk with other V owners. I think that Ester is quite dominant, which I can't really do much about, but I really need to nip this aggression in the bud. She only does it occasionally, but it's the unpredictability of her behaviour. Yesterday she found a piece of plastic off an ink cartridge for the printer (I have spoken to hubby and kids who are 17 and 18 re leaving things around for her to steal), and took it under the table. I knew she wouldn't want to willingly give it up, so I held her quietly, and felt it in her mouth. She was holding tight. Knowing what she can be like, I didn't want to fish it out of her mouth, as this is when she snaps. I gently picked her up to see if she would drop it. She accidentally dropped it before I could get a treat to tempt her to give it up. She instantly turned on me, then ran away, obviously knowing she did something wrong. I have a fairly deep puncture wound on my hand, that is still painful and starting to bruise. Not sure why she is so nasty at times, but thankfully they are hopefully avoidable. I have thought that maybe it's me, but I am not scared of her, I am the one that feeds and walks her, the one that puts her to bed, gets up in the night and spends time giving her lots of love and cuddles. She is fast asleep on my knees at present. Bless her.


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## Gingernutter (Dec 4, 2011)

I think that although she is dominant at the min there are ways to change this. She sounds to me like she thinks she is the Alpha! I read a really good book called the Dog Listener by Jan Fennell. Excellent book with really calm and positive techniques. The book really explained how the dog thinks rather than how we think they think. Her methods are very much about the dog understanding pack mentality and where they sit in the pack. In the wild a pack animal would never bite the Alpha of the pack unless it was a challenge to the authority or they thought THEY were the Alpha. I would take a look at the book as I think you'll find many of the answers you are looking for.


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## deeco3307 (Jun 13, 2010)

We had a similar problem with our V and it was crushing my wife and I. It started around 6 months old and continued until about 8 months ago. We tried countless things and we were very close to finding him a new home as we were considering having children. He aggressively bit myself and my father in-law. 

We trained him daily on the drop command with treats. We would purposely drop a sock to work with him. He went to several obedience classes and we had a trainer come to our house.

Out of all the things we tried, what worked best was some negative reinforcement. We used an e-collar with a beeping noise (never even had to use the shock). When he grabbed something he shouldn't have, we would say "mine." If he didn't drop, he got beeped. Once he dropped, he got a treat.

It pretty much worked immediately. Now I will say that we worked a lot on training and curbing dominant behavior prior to this as well. He knows he's always 2nd through a door, he sits and waits for us to tell him he can eat his food, etc... I think a combination of the 2 is what worked so well for us.

We also took away all chew bones- as they are most likely to get aggressive with those. He also has no toys "sitting out." He only gets to play with a toy when we are playing with him, so they sit in a back bedroom until I go get them.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

P.S. As a side note, consider a change in food if the one you currently feed is excessively high in protein. We were feeding a food with >30% protein, which is supposed to be better for dogs. But there is some research showing higher aggression in dogs fed high protein diets. We changed his food around the same time we started using the e-collar. I don't think the food really had anything to do with it, but can't say for sure.


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## Gingernutter (Dec 4, 2011)

Deeco, great post there and just to add a few other things I read and tried. I always ignore the dog when I come home and greet everyone in the family 1st in the pecking order and after been back 5 mins I then say hello to Mylo. I always ignore him for the 1st 5 mins when I let him out the crate. Not been cruel it's just that is what he understands, watch the true Alpha dogs next time your out they always tend to ignore the pups and the pups do everything to please them as they understand he or she is the Alpha.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

She needs to have her obedience training taken to another level. Meaning sit, stay, down, here, heel, place or crate, give, all need to be worked on and followed. Keep her on a leash in the house so she has to follow all the commands and can't run off from you.
I agree with what the others have posted above and you need to stop this behavior as soon as possible. Don't act scared or loud and angry when she does this. Be firm and stand your ground.
She is young and your going to have to give her corrections for this kind of behavior but once the correction is over move on, don't hold it against her the rest of the day.


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## pippylongstocking (May 21, 2012)

Thanks so much for all your advice. It all makes sense. She is definitely showing some challenging behaviour at times. Interesting point about high protein food. I would not have considered this. Currently feeding pro plan puppy, which has 30 per cent protein. I will try to ease her onto a lower protein diet and get working on her training. Hopefully we can turn the situation round. Watch this space!


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## kristen (Oct 18, 2011)

I have to agree with deeco3307, some things need a bit of negative reinforcement. 

Odin one day started to get possessive over used swiffers and rocks/other forbidden objects in the backyard. He just doesn't want to give them up. He wont trade them for a better treat. Nothing. I know everyone says positive reinforcement works best, but we found for this case positive reinforcement was not working. 

So now, if you say drop it, and he doesn't, he gets sprayed with a water spray bottle. One spray of the water and he will drop it (then of course we praise praise praise and give him something he should chew on). Now he will drop it even if you're just holding the bottle.


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## kk1095 (Apr 17, 2012)

What your dog is displaying is called "resource guarding". Don't worry, it is common, and not just with Vizslas. We have had the same issue with our pup, and it does take repeated training to correct. Just be patient, doesn't make him a bad dog but it does need to be corrected.

Essentially what your dog is doing is guarding objects it deems valuable. It doesn't do this with food, toys etc because those are items you provide it with. You always give them more (food) or back to them (toys) on a regular basis. If he finds something in the yard for instance the more effort you make in trying to take it from him, the more he will try to guard it.

We are on e-collar with our 4 month old now, so he drops on command. However what worked best for us before was to "trade" with an object that he deems more valuable. In our case the golden nugget was turkey lunchmeat.  We would offer the turkey while simultaneously giving the "drop it" command. When he dropped the object, he got the turkey. 

Now, the thing that really makes this effective is if you can give the object back after giving the golden nugget. Obviously you cant always do this because it could be harmful for him, but if you can reward the "drop it" command a few times with the same object he will start to associated the command as a positive thing moving forward.

Just like humans if they can associate that they could potentially get something back if they let it go it becomes a lot easier to let it go initially. To keep him close to you we found it best to keep a small leash attached to the collar at all times when not crated.

Hope this helps!


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## pippylongstocking (May 21, 2012)

Thanks for the information. I have found it all very interesting, and hope to put a lot of what has been advised into practice. Ester has been her usual adorable and loopy self today, but no aggression. When I can figure out how to do it, I will upload some photos of the gorgeous little critter!


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

kk1095 said:


> We are on e-collar with our 4 month old now, so he drops on command.


You are using an e-collar on a 4 month old?!?  Isn't that rather young? I heard you shouldn't start them on the collar until they are *at least* 6 months old.

We taught Riley "drop it" and "leave it" at a very young age using positive reinforcement. Both commands are very easy to teach and can save your dog's life.


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## jjohnson (Nov 9, 2011)

Okay, I have to add my two cents. We have had fear aggression and some resource guarding issues with our puppy and have met with a behaviorist and trainers and I have done a lot of online research. A lot of people on this forum subscribe to "dominance theory" and that is fine- only an owner knows what works best for his or her dog. I would just like to caution you that this is not the only theory out there, and that a lot of current trained animal behaviorists and animal behavior publications I have researched stronly oppose these tactics. They say that while you do need to establish that you are the leader, proving your "dominance" by pinning or growling, etc. has actually been shown in scientific studies to worsen the problem in most cases. There's a ton of articles about "resource gaurding" online; a simple one to understand (without tons of references to scientific literature) is this one
http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/resource-guarding/. 

Just an alternate suggestion to punishment, "growling", pinning, etc. We had issues with guarding the couch that are all but gone now (he is 1 year old) so this behavior can be improved! It seems like he kind of grew out of it too, although he has never actually bitten anybody so you may have a more serious case. Best of luck with however you decide to handle it, I know how frustrating it can be to have a puppy that sometimes is not so nice!


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## kk1095 (Apr 17, 2012)

Most of the professial trainers I've spoken with, including our own, recommend E Collar as early as 4 months, provided they already know the commands you will be using it for. It is used as an additional aid in order to help focus on commands.

For instance, we do not use it for heel yet because he hasn't quite grasped the command on its own. We do use it for recall outside of the house when there are obviously more distractions to make it more diffucult. Imo training can never begin too early


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

You guys :'( please consider the type of dog first. 

ON A 4 MONTH OLD VIZSLA AN E-COLLAR IS RATHER CRUEL. Heck, i would not even consider using it on a 6 month old GSD. 

If you still want to use the beep feature, consider unscrewing the electric shock prongs so no accidents happen. Use the beep feature as a clicker.
Simply, they are puppies. Let them be puppies. 

Use the crate for discipline instead. Use food rewards and play games. You will have more confident dog, later. 
If your dog is really "Kujo" @ 4 months 8), consider yourself lucky. You have a good dog... Use a small prong collar. 

The E-collar has uses, later. I stared using it at almost 10 months. Even now, I hardly press the buttons and I bike with him off leash. 


Bart Bellon on dog training http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksrd9R4giEo


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Sorry but I can't begin to think why any one would want to use an e-collar on a pup of ANY age. Are you so lazy that you can't take a bit more time and effort to train your dog with treats? Why do you have to go for the quick fix option?

I do think that e-collars have their place so don't get me wrong, but my 5 month old pup sits, downs, waits , heels and recalls very nicely thank you and I do not do more than five x 5 min training sessions a week. His heel work has taken a while, but at no time have I felt the necessity to reinforce it with an e-collar. It is so much more satisfying to think wow he's got it!!!! I taught him that - it was fun.

I was very impressed with the quick and easy way some members - RubyRoo, Harrigab, Finch & Ottosmama all trained their pups to heal work with this new leash method - see their videos. Bet that didn't take long with these smart guys and their patient owners and their smart treat bags - Good on you guys


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## deeco3307 (Jun 13, 2010)

Hotmischief,

I didn't want to start using the e-collar for the same reasons your mentioning. But my pup was 1 1/2 years old and dangerous at times. He simply didn't respond to positive reinforcement and I trained him just as much as you did with treats and praise.

So, I think the e-collar absolutely has a place, especially when the situation raises to a dangerous level.

Again, with hours of prior training, the e-collar made our commands "mean something." My pup would do all the basic commands at a very young age, but drop was always a struggle. The e-collar finally gave him reciprocation for not following a command.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

decco,

I would totally concur with your use of an e-collar, given your situation. What was your alternative, to rehome or have the dog destroyed? In your case it may have saved your dogs life. I used one as a last resort on a 2 yr old Dane who nearly ran across a road to see another dog - I used it to reinforce the recall command (although normally his recall was v.good).

My point is I don't think at 4 or 6 months of age, pups require this sort of reinforcement. I question, is it true aggression or just bad behaviour that an owner misinterrupted and did not put a stop to earlier on. As we weren't there we can't judge, but it is worth at this age giving the pup the benefit of the doubt and diverting the aggression into good constructive behaviour.

I am very much of the opinion that some of the aggressive dogs in this world were not born aggressive but learnt aggression from their owners and some for survival. Just the same as children learn behaviour patterns from their parents and friends.


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## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Hotmischief,

We actually didn't use that method when teaching our pups to heal. It just takes time, consistency, and treats - and yes we are very lucky our dogs are so smart. I can't speak completely for Finch, but as far as I know her owner has taught her all that she knows simply with treats and a clicker. She is training her Vizsla/Pitbull mix to become a Therapy Dog and has taught her to heal with using only a standard (floral  ) collar and leash. At some points I too wondered if I should be using harsher methods of training (prong collar) - not that I wanted to, just wasn't sure if he would ever stop pulling. But once Finch and Ozkar demonstrated that these dogs are capable of walking at a heal (Finch @ 10 months old!) then I knew it was not a matter if whether or not _Otto _ was capable of walking at a heal, it was a matter if _I_ was willing to put in the time. We haven't mastered this with a standard collar - we use the easy walk harness - but I'm sure we will get there eventually! And Otto is 9 months and a super energetic, independent pup!

Like anything, it is so gratifying to see your hardwork paid off. I do not agree with everyone all the time, but Datacan hit the nail on the head! Let your puppy be a _puppy_. Otto is my first and I often wondered if he was out of control and needed to be more obedient sooner. My breeder advised me to let him be a puppy and start expecting obedience from him after 6 months. That is not to say don't work on commands - you can never start to early! But don't expect them to not be frisky, nippy puppies, because you will become very frustrated.

My boyfriend Dave and I made *loads * of mistakes - I am sad/embarrassed to admit that Otto's recall is terrible - but that is _our _ fault. We live in an apartment and we do not have a fenced in yard (don't know anyone that does that we could ask to utilize). He has suggested multiple times that we start learning about the e-collar. I still think Otto has time to be won over with positive reinforcement, but it is the #1 most important command and he needed to learn it yesterday! Therefore, we woke up this morning at 5 AM and brought him down to a state park with fenced in tennis court area and worked on it with him there. He will get it, I am confident of that, the only question is if we will be diligent. (which we will!)

I hope you understand that I am not trying to say my way is the only way. It's just an example. Everyone has their own methods to raising a puppy - but please reconsider the use of an e-collar until they are older.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

On ecollars.
I use them but never on dogs under 6 months old and some of my dogs are older before its introduced. So much depends on the dog and how its introduced, and used. You would be taking a big chance on creating a second problem while your trying to fix the first one.


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## Linescreamer (Sep 28, 2010)

What TexasRed said above. It depends on the dog and the trainers level of experience. An e-collar can be used exactly like a check cord and sometimes with less harm to the dog. I have seen owners use a check cord on a pup who I'd like to use it around the owner's neck! It is important that the dog already knows the command and repeatedly demonstrates proficiency prior to e-collar useage. The e-collar should never be used by someone who isn't experienced and could easily ruin a V.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

The stimulation they get from E-collars is not naturally associated with the bite on the neck dogs administer when correcting each other.

It is so unnatural and it takes weeks at lowest level a dog can detect coupled with leash pressure (once the dog understands leash pressure)

We have experimented with E-collars on our own skin , considered stimulation patterns (differs by manufacturer) and measured electrical output at different levels. 
Conclusion.... cheap collars can be quite cruel because the step-up between levels is dramatic and the electrical stimulation is inconsistent.

In any case a 4 month old Vizsla is way too young for any kind of shock therapy :'(


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Ottosmama,

I totally agree with everything you said and well done for admitting to making mistakes. Don't we all?? With every puppy I have had I have made mistakes and learnt a lot more about training them, and I am far from knowing as much as some on this forum.

I think you misread my earlier post where I clearly stated that I *do not* agree with using an e-collar as a quick fix and certainly not on pups. 

I appreciate that some trainers use them to reinforce their training, but I am very much of the opinion that time and patience is far more rewarding. No matter whether we like it not ecollars seem to have a place in training. Some rescue centres I know use them as a last ditch attempt to try to sort out aggressive behaviour in dogs so that they can re home them. Right or wrong, if the only other alternative is destroying the dog?

Fortunately, the use of an e-collar is a personal one. I would prefer never to have to use one.

Sorry if I got your training leash method confused with the others - Otto was brilliant and I hope that eventually Boris will heel as well. As you say it takes time. I certainly didn't mean to cause offence. I only have admiration for what you have achieved.


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## kk1095 (Apr 17, 2012)

Hotmischief,

I'm not sure quite how to respond to your reply other than "wow". Although it appears to be very easy for you to sit on a message board and attack my opinion, it isn't fair however to broadly make claims and personal attacks including calling me "lazy" and looking for an "easy fix"...

If you consider daily treat and positive re-enforcement training lazy than yes, I am. 

If you consider daily trips to dog parks, public areas and new environments for socialization lazy than yes, I am. 

If you consider me providing our pup with hours of free play, attention, walks and time to just be a "pup" lazy than yes, I am.

So please allow me to re-iterate because our use of an e-collar is clearly misunderstood on this board by some.... There are several things I should point out.

1) It is NEVER used as punishment, or negative reinforcement.
2) We meet 3x weekly with a VERY reputable trainer and anything new is done under strict supervision.
3) The setting is on the lowest possible level (1 of 5), and the collar we use is the ONLY brand he will endorse. (*No kickbacks by the way before you suggest that). This is a very expensive reputable product.
4) We never use it unless off-leash, outside of the house, with a command that he already knows.
5) I never said I use it to teach anything, including heel.

Every command our little guy has learned has been taught with plenty of practice, patience, love and treats until completely understood. The E-collar is strictly used as a reinforcement in situations that could be deemed detrimental to his safety. IE: picking up a harmful object, running towards a road, etc.

In the short couple weeks we have used it, we have seen improvements like you wouldn't believe! And trust me, he is the same quirkly, happy, loving little guy as before.

It would be nice to just understand someones situation before you personally attack them. If you read my original post I was only offering someone advice on something that worked really well for us before.


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## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Hotmischief - absolutely no offense taken! Now or before!! I was mainly clearing up that myself and the others did not use that method for two reasons 
1/ bc Finch did that all on her own - collar/leash and time (which I am still so impressed with!! 
2/ so that others who may have thought how I initially had (prong collar may have been the only option) would see that it can be done other ways. I so desperately wanted Otto to walk well beside me because one day I want him to be my running buddy! But I knew that could never happen with his pulling... However, I felt torn using other methods because I didn't want to force him to stay with me through discomfort ... So just wanted to clear that up so others who might feel the same way I did would know there are other options.

Thanks for the message but really I knew where you were coming from. I didn't think you were in favor of the e-collar. My message was confusing because I originally addressed you but really it was only intended for the first paragraph - sorry! 

I know people who use the e-collar with only the beep. I do not have a problem with that or with others who use it as a back up for recall - as a reinforcer. In our situation however, I know it's just a matter of us not putting the work in because it's not particularly convenient for us to work on recall with him because our options of a safe area with distractions are pretty limited. But I think with the tennis courts we should have better luck. (as long as no one complains that we have a dog in there)!!


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

kk1095 said:


> "1) It is NEVER used as punishment, or negative reinforcement"...
> 
> ... "The E-collar is strictly used as a reinforcement in situations that could be deemed detrimental to his safety. IE: picking up a harmful object, running towards a road, etc"...


I'm confused. On one hand you say it's never used as a punishment or negative reinforcement, but then several lines down you say it's "strictly used as a reinforcement". ???

A tiny puppy at only 4 months of age shouldn't be anywhere near a road off-leash and if he doesn't understand "drop it" then he shouldn't be allowed to run so far that you can't physically remove the object from his mouth. I hate it when people go to the e-collar as a quick-fix and this seems to be the case in this situation, IMO. I would stay *far away* from any trainer who recommends shocking a baby pup under 6 months. That screams *lazy* to me and I wouldn't hardly consider the trainer to be "reputable".


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## kk1095 (Apr 17, 2012)

Ugh, seriously just a simple misuse of terminology. What I mean by "reinforcement" in my second statement is an extra hand when desperately needed, not using "reinforcement" as negative punishment.

Of course our guy isn't in situations where we allow him to be off leash close to roads! There are situations in life however that happen in which he needs to know how to respond if presented to him. What if a contractor leaves the fence open or he pulls to chase an object and a leash snaps, etc. etc. etc. Good lord we don't put him in harmful situations!

Again, not sure how to respond when I already addressed the "quick fix" opinion. Couldn't be further from the truth. Our trainer has trained hundreds of dogs successfully both on E-Collar and off. It's a personal preference, and AGAIN, nothing is taught with E-Collar. I understand it's not for everyone, but we are all entitled to our own methodology without being so attacking and judgmental. Clearly some on here are more opinionated than others . Much love people.


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## kellygh (Oct 25, 2010)

I am VERY lazy! Pumpkin has had 2 off leash walks today while I road along side in the golf cart ;D I just didn't have it in me to listen to my 3 kids complain about the injustice of walking P again (50 gazillion times a day according to my 7 y/o son).


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> Our trainer has trained hundreds of dogs successfully both on E-Collar and off.


kk1095, If you trust your trainer then all is good in the world. If he has trained hundreds of dogs then he is a professional. Not all professionals are going to agree.

Give a professional gun handler a 50 caliber rifle and all is good. Give it to a novice and things are going to go terribly wrong. 
http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/06/our-dogs-are-not-our-children.html

And yes Kellygh you are very lazy to only have three kids and a Vizsla. What do you do with all that extra time? 8)

RBD


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## pippylongstocking (May 21, 2012)

Love this forum. You are all so committed and protective of this fabulous breed. It's been great reading all of your posts. Seems to be a bit heated at times though. Thanks for all the good advice. Not into e-collars, so don't think I will ever use one, especially on a young puppy.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

KK1095 Firstly I would like to apologise for any offence caused - there was certainly none intended. As you said we are all entitled to our methodology and opinions.

Normally I would leave it at that and say hey you are entitled to your opinions and so am I - lets leave it at that, but I just want too clarify two points.

One, I was not inferring that you were personally lazy - but that to use an ecollar on a pup you have had approx 8 - 10 weeks when most of us are still potty training and doing very basic stuff - it is still very early in the day to be turning to an ecollar. So in my humble opinion it is a lazy method( I obviously didn't convey that in my earlier posts). I appreciate that you want to keep your puppy safe and that is only right, as I do mine. Some of us manage to accomplish this without the use of an ecollar at 4 months, is all I am saying. If your trainer has trained hundreds of dogs on ecollars and hundreds off why can he not train yours without an ecollar? Viszla are such clever dogs. I am sorry if I missed that point. 

Secondly, I like a debate and I am sorry if I expressed my opinions in such away that if caused offence - your first email lacked the detail of the second. You obviously love your pup and are doing what you think is best for him. The fact that I feel the Method you/trainer use is a lazy/quick fix method is just my opinion. I am obviously very thick as I still fail to see the necessity for using an ecollar at 4 months, but nevery mind, I think we had better agree to disagree.

I wish you and your pup all the best and hope the training goes well.


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