# Being firm?



## Phoebejane (May 10, 2012)

Hi everyone.. 

So tonight at dog training Harry was full of tomfoolery.. Doing his usual mouthing,leaping which I correct right away with a firm "no" and try my best to ignore and praise him when he settles down. My trainer has told me I have to be firmer with him if I want to stop him mouthing which happens when he gets over excited.. I am hoping my method will succeed although it may take longer. 
So my question is what does being firm mean to you?


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Being firm for me means saying things as a command and not a question. I learned during training that I was *asking* Riley to do a lot of things when I should be telling her. Tone of voice makes a big difference.


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

For us, being firm was being patient and persistent. For example, when teaching Miles to heel, we had to keep turning around and changing directions, which is very annoying when trying to go on a walk. It would have been easier to give in to him and let him pull along the walk, but we were "firm" during training and he is a pretty good walker now. We had similar issues of needing to consistently correct him with jumping.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

I am a true believer in firm. Dogs don't want to think about anything where there is a choice. Giving a Vizsla no option in a *firm but caring * way will make for a happy dog. You make the choice and the dog does what you ask. They do not want a choice. That is a human level dynamic.

As the pack leader they EXPECT you from puppyhood through adulthood to make the choices and they must, because that is what is in their DNA, follow your decision. 
Like Threefsh noted:


> I learned during training that I was *asking* Riley to do a lot of things when I should be telling her.


RBD


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Heel eVerytime in & out of the house - Here & whoa eVerytime without ? in the field or off lead - raised in the 60's & 70's - I am almost a liberal - get that done right - the rest comes easy !


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## David (Jul 17, 2012)

Preface! ;D
I've had MIka since July, she is my first, however my 3rd dog. Back in my diaper-days I grew up with a GSD. After "tintin" came Eve the rottweiler, the definition of a gentile giant. With Mika I faced several challenges. My house is a teething dogs unsupervised wet dream and a new puppy owners nightmare! ;D By my family my house is referred to as grand central station, people in and out all day because I work from home, And holidays easily 60 plus. So as fast as possible She had to learn how to deal with people from all walks and all ages, all the while being tempted at every turn by all manor of objects! Shes is 6 months, and although I haven't any kids, she gives me what I assume is the proud parent feeling!  

Aside from all the positive attention she receives, when firmness is needed and depending on the gravity of the offence I have 3 different corrections. (1 being not so bad and 3 being for the worst offences or violating nonnegotiables)

Side note: the family and I come up with a list of rules: No biting, no people food, no jumping indoors, the only things allowed in or around her mouth are her toys and food. (summarized)


1. A firm and low no

2. Grip the nape of the neck and say no

3. Grip the nape of the neck and bring the dog to the floor and say no

The use of the nape of the neck is very effective on 2 levels; it calms the dog, and it is a maternal action. ( In humans a similar sensation is felt when holding the elbow, I'm sure we all remember when our parents used that move on us :-\ ) While under the influence of the "nape-grip" they're physically sensitive, so the dog will fallow your lead with out fuss. So with just about the same force of a simple head pat the dog will make its way to the floor in a display of submission preprogrammed by mother-nature. 

Some additional rules of thumb I fallow and my reasoning behind them;

Never give a command you cannot enforce right then and there; otherwise you're simply deconditioning your puppy when it make a choice opposite to what you wanted. 

keep the words to a minimum, since they're just puppies there vocabulary is limited to only the words and commands you have taught them. Anything outside of that, like full on sentences, is just noise, and it confuses the learning process of matching tone with positive and negative feed. If you haven't noticed we humans very are tone a lot. Keeping things "black and white" it gives them a better understanding of what the floor and ceiling are. We do the same with babies, talk really happy when things are good, and serious when things are bad or dangerous. 

Lots of love, especially when they are preoccupying themselves with positive activities all on their own! I purposely leave toys discreetly scattered about to keep her on her toes. *If their random choice of entertainment is a good thing, praise it, this may help curb destructiveness when unsupervised! (theory*)

HTH!


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## Phoebejane (May 10, 2012)

Thank you everyone for replying!

I can already see he has entered the teenage phase and I really need to up my game when it comes to him mouthing me as my trainer put it "would I let my children bite me over and over again" and my answer is "no" it is so hard having eyes watching me deal with him when he is swinging by the teeth off my arm and that the dog trainer last night had to grab his neck as he wouldn't release and he was hurting me!
I am positive we will get through this together "you reap what you sow" Thank you all again


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Phoebejane, determining what is firm is dependant on your level as a person. As an example, a firm command from me to my dogs, might be looked at by another dog owner as soft. Or alternatively, my firm might be too much for another dog.

My friend's dog Stephanie is a great example. My firm NO which my dogs hear as just a no, frightened her when we first started socialising together. Now, after getting used to my tone, she now can tell if I am being firm or not and no longer is fearful of my firmer commands. 

Having said all that, there are really not that many trainers out there who truly understand the nature of a Vizsla. So, you need to work out if this trainer truly knows there stuff when it comes to training a Vizsla, or if they are making comment based on the experience they have with "most" dogs. 

I always err on the side of softer commands and have been well rewarded over the longer term. Astro and Zsa Zsa are perhaps the best behaved pups I have ever had. I get so many comments each time we go out in public about how beautifully behaved they are. It's more about repetition and consistency than it is about being harsh. Firm is good, positive and encouraging is even better........


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

PheobeJane

Gunnr, my younger Vizsla, requires a firm hand. In the wrong hands Gunnr would be a trial. She's just over the top. When she was younger she required more of a firm hand than now, but still, you have to be able to handle her.
Tika, my oldest Vizsla, requires very little, to no, handling. Ergo, they cannot be run together because Tika will shut down due to the firmness Gunnr requires. She thinks the firmness is directed at her, and cannot handle that amount of pressure.
So,what does firmness mean for Gunnr? It means that I have to anticipate her next move, or reaction and abate it before it happens, or escalates. I have to be right on top of her, and ahead of her thought process to stop her from making her own decisions. 
I am not mean to her. I don't verbally or physically abuse her. I just give her direction before she has a chance to make her own decisions. I can't cut her any slack.
She requires near constant feedback and communication in the field, or she'll be off to the races, and then getting her mind back is even more difficult.
I believe your trainer is trying to get to you to stop the mouthing at the initial first sign, not after it goes on for a minute or two.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Maybe a more appropriate question is what is too firm and how do we recognize we went over the top?

It is easy to bark commands, grab and shake the dog. The dog's reaction will depend on the drive it is experiencing. I generally don't like to see the tail tucked in, eyes blinking or the dog afraid of me. 

Is it just me or the Vizsla forum became a lot more FIRM on these dogs? 

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ksrd9R4giEo&desktop_uri=/watch?v=ksrd9R4giEo


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## Phoebejane (May 10, 2012)

Ozkar I am naturally not an assertive person which is why we go to dog training so I can train myself.. I do think my trainer thinks I am too soft But I thought I was being firm by "no" telling him to sit, waiting and then praising him when he calmed. 
Gunnr that is how I would describe Harry at dog training "over the top" sometimes I feel he is too intelligent to be there haha he doesn't like waiting while the other dogs work on they're obedience so he sits and watches gets overexcited then throws a tantrum and takes it out on me. 
I have been doing research into more classes and found a lady who comes highly recommended by other dog walkers I have met so think I am going to give her a call.. I have been given great advice from his current trainer but I just don't think they get him and his v charm. 
I never mentioned before but she told me sometimes they need one really good telling off for them to know it's wrong! I don't want to go down that route respect is earned you don't get it from physically punishing them over night.
You know when you get a gut feeling about something not being right well this is how I feel about our current class


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

PheobeJane

Bail on the class if it doesn't feel right.

You will almost never get anywhere with a V by getting physical with it. They just don't respond to that stimuli, and will shut down on you and then you will get nowhere.
Being firm means exactly that. It doesn't mean to beat the dog, pick it up and shake it by the collar, roll it on it's back and menace it, or any of that crap. It just means when the dog isn't responding, from the initial get go, it's back on the leash and a ground manners lesson takes place. Dogs understand a quick, non emotional correction. Make the correction quick, and get on your way by moving on. No emotion, no verbal onslaught. A quick "No", on the leash, and do some heel training. Then go to play time.
Put the dog under your complete control, mind and body. You dictate the terms from the initial onset.
As long as I am in constant communication with Gunnr in the field, she is fine, but if I slip up and give her head she's gone and on her own. That's firm for her, constant communication and control. I set up the box she's allowed to operate in and keep her in that box. Many V's would shutdown with the amount of control she needs, but each dog is an individual. She's a rock star though, and breathless to watch in the woods, so she's worth the extra work.
By contrast, in 3 or 4 hours with Tika, I might talk to her a half dozen times.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Datacan asked:


> Is it just me or the Vizsla forum became a lot more FIRM on these dogs?


I believe one aspect is the number of HVF members now that have teenage Hungarian Pointers or older. They are or have experienced why FIRM is the only method that works. Love only takes them so far.

Some times we have gotten huge numbers of "puppy people" that come here for advice (which is a good thing). We will see more puppy questions again in the spring as the litters start going home. 

The misconceptions of *what a Vizsla really is * also may be evolving as new people read all the HVF posts and see that these hunting dogs are not EASY dogs to own, but like Gunnr points out:


> Many V's would shutdown with the amount of control she needs, but each dog is an individual. She's a rock star though, and breathless to watch in the woods, so she's worth the extra work.


Raining in massive sheets as a Pacific storm comes on shore. Today's walk will be an adventure. 

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/02/old-closed-road-works-in-rain.html

Can I skip a day? No, not any more. I used to be able to, but our walks are ingrained in both the dogs and myself. We are addicted. A day without a walk is like a day without sunshine. Dull.

RBD


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

To me, firm is "tough love." With kids and dogs, "tough love" means consistency and follow through to me. You do something that's difficult in the moment, but will be better for them in the long term, ie: waiting for dog to stop crying to give him/her attention. (momentary happiness isn't the goal, but long term happiness due to being well behaved)

Everything I have read about V's say that despite their high energy, they are a "soft" breed and can tend towards timidity. They need more socialization than other breeds and less harsh punishments. This requires a lot of patience. In fact, what both harsh punishments and indulgence have in common is a lack of patience. If you give him food when he's crying or let him/her out of the crate when whining, it's lack of patience, (in my mind) if you yell at the dog "no" or unduly grab the back of his/her neck it is lack of patience. 

The best thing we can probably do is not only be patient and firm, but proactive. So, if we know the pup engages in a certain behavior, start reinforcing the positive replacement behavior before it even starts. 

The good news is that all the work that goes into being firm, patient and proactive is that it gets sooooo much easier as you go on. I would say the first six months are the most difficult, then probably the first year and a half and then hopefully a very well behaved 13 more? 


Do you like my soap box speech? 

RBD, I'd like to hear more about the actual behavior which you use that the dog understands as firm leadership.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2012/06/raising-free-thinking-kids-and-dogs.html

L2L, you soapbox well.

The above Father's Day 2012 post is as close as I come to answering your question on FIRM.

RBD


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

I use tone and intensity in my voice to reinforce commands, ie if we're out hunting and she points a bird or rabbit then looks at me for the "flush command" I'll gently say "no" until I'm ready. If for some reason she decides to do something that's out of order she'll get "Ruby, No!" not a shout but a firmer more intense command.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

RBD, your post on parenting was so heart warming to read. Congratulations on your free thinking family.


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