# Thinking of changing to Raw



## Ben

Hi to all,
We have a 7mouth old male v who's coming along well. We weigh him once a week at the moment and this Saturday passed he was 24.8kg and 24.5" to the shoulder. He has a high gloss coat and everything else you would expect. 
We have been feeding him Simpsons puppy Sensitive as we thought when he was around three months he might have had a sensitive tummy. We have been having to add extra fats (fresh cooked Lamb breast) as a supplement to his food though as we were struggling to keep him from looking skinny. Even so he is still showing a few ribs top and bottom but not as bad as it was. The Lamb breast seems to help float his weight well. He has around 40mins walk in the morning and evening, and loves his sleep in-between. 
I have been keen on the idea of feeding him Raw for a while now, (pretty much ever since we got him at 8 weeks really) My partner less so, as for the reason he still on kibble. 
But now as he seems to need so much food with all the add-ons, we both agree that looking into a raw diet might be better. Not only due to the expense but the amount of poo that he produces. As I read that he will produce less poo on raw. We are also spending close to £100 a month on food, although this isn't really a problem we think it would be cheaper to feed him raw and I think he would probably enjoy it a little more as he goes crazy for the Lamb and turns his nose up at kibble of its own. We also have to feed him a fibre supplement to help loosen his poo as he wasn't emptying in anal glans.
Can anyone give some advice or recommend a Raw feed or even a recipe for one to make at home? 

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Ben


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## Watson

Hi Ben, Welcome to the forum.

We recently switched to Prey Model Raw, after feeding The Honest Kitchen (commercial dehydrated "raw") for over two years. I, like you, was spending over $150USD a month on food, and could not believe the amount, and stink of poop while on THK. Almost as if more came out than went in. Although THK is a decent food, it is mainly a plant based food, and thus no use to a dog. 

To start, I fed only minced chicken to adjust him, and have slowly introduced other proteins - so far we've done chicken, turkey, tripe, and lamb. I also bought ground meat that was 80/10/10 (meat/bone/organ) just to get him used to his new diet. However, I'm now buying things whole since it's a lot cheaper. The only things I'm currently adding other than meat/bone/organ is coconut oil and goat milk yogurt in the am, and sardine oil in the pm. The key is to introduce things slowly for adjustment purposes, and also to rule out any allergies. You also want to watch for sodium levels in the meats you do feed. Grocery store meat tends to have a lot of sodium added to it. 

You will very likely save some money, as I'm now spending around $70USD a month, and my boy is eating as nature intended him to eat. He poops once a day, no stink, firm, and very small. It's a bit of work and research at first, but you'll get comfortable enough with it very quickly. 

Will you be feeding him BARF, or PMR? If you're on facebook, there are two great groups, one called "The Raw Feeding Community", and another "Vizslas, Raw and Natural" I recommend joining. Loads of information there!


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## einspänner

Hey! Welcome! sorry for how long this is...

I would start with lamb since he's already had it, chicken, or green tripe for the first 1-2 weeks. As Watson said, it's good to introduce new proteins slowly. That'll be particularly important when you add offal as it is very rich. Some dogs experience a detox period where their stools and everything else seem to get worse before they get better, so switch over entirely to raw at once instead of doing half and half to accelerate that period. 

You heard right that they poop less on raw. It doesn't smell as strong and breaks down very quickly. They also drink less because they're getting more moisture from their food, so don't be surprised by that. It's supposed to be less taxing on their kidneys than eating dry food, actually.

Cost can definitely be cheaper than what you're spending, especially if you get good at sourcing meat, which can mean making friends with the local butcher and hunters and generally going off the beaten path. I spend about 60 USD a month buying some commercial raw and some grocery store sales. 

I'll list out some resources here, but I just wanted to emphasize to use some critical thinking. There are a couple different camps, so figure out what works for your dog. Don't be a slave to numbers or to a method.

I second the recommendation for Vizsla, Raw and Natural. If you join that one, shoot the admin a message to let her know you're real. 

Here is a site I referenced a lot when I started. It gives you an idea of what to feed and the approx percentage of bone. http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_Diet/thread/737490/1

Here is a decent primer with a prey model bias. http://rawfed.com/myths/feedraw.html

http://www.naturallyhealthydogs.co.uk/DIET-GUIDE.html

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-feeding-primer/

For an adult dog, you'd feed around 2-3% of their body weight to maintain where they are and with young puppies you would go with 10% of their current weight. Since he's still growing and you've had trouble maintaining weight (totally normal for a V pup, btw) I'd recommend going somewhere in between those numbers. So maybe start feeding him 4-6% of his current weight for a week and then see how he's doing and adjust as necessary to keep him at a healthy weight. You also want to aim for 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, and 10% offal. 

so if my math is right, 5% of his weight the first day might look like: 
1240 g total
AM meal 413g total, 289g (23%) chicken breast, 124 g (10%) chicken neck/wing/foot
PM meal 827 g total, 827g (67%) boneless chicken thigh

You may want to weight the food at first, but it doesn't take long to start eyeballing things and you also don't have to feed a completely balanced meal every day. If his weight is good, his energy is good, his stools are good, and you're somewhere in the ballpark of the 80/10/10 rule, you're doing it right.


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## Ben

Thank you for all the advice. The website link will be a great help. I think my partner is slowly coming round to the idea now too. She still manages to find a lot of negative press, but a lot of it is illness due to bad meat sourcing or handling. I will be off to see our local butcher this afternoon to see what we can get through him. They have their own abattoir so I'm hoping everything will be on the menu.


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## Spy Car

Hi Ben,

You've received great advice. I've been feeding "Chester" (now 13 months old) on a PMR style raw diet since he was 8 weeks. The results has been so excellent that I find myself needing to temper my enthusiasm (or risk sounding like a zealot ).

For what it's worth my wife was more skeptical starting out that I was (and even I had my doubts), but now I hear her on the phone with friends touting raw feeding. 

You see how much they enjoy real food. That will only get to be more fun as you add appropriate odd bits to the menu. Chester, who is otherwise not a drooly dog, pours saliva like Niagara Falls at mealtime.

Most PRM folks I know suppliment with fish oil (to balance Omega 3s), I prefer to feed whole oily fish like Sardines, Anchovies, and Mackerel. I also like to source connective tissue like cartilage and tendon, which isn't specifically included in the 80/10/10 (meat/bone/organ) "formula."

As noted, start simply and then add protein sources when the first proves well-tolerated. Even though Lamb has proven itself, I'd start with Chicken (or do Chicken and Lamb) simply because you will probably want to be a little "bone-heavy" in the beginning. Being bone-heavy to start reduces the odds of diarrhea during the transition. Raw Chicken bone is easy, safe, and inexpensive. Finding soft edible Lamb bone might be a trickier deal.

Most raw feerers hold off on organs (again, because they are rich and can cause loose stools). I'm differently minded. Organs (and the PMR model calls for 50% liver, 50% other secreting organs) are vitamin powerhouses. They are vital in the diet. It seems to me that a fair number of raw fed dogs that got organs like liver "late" develop an aversion to them. Where Chester, who got them from Day 1, eats lis liver first. Instead of "delay," my "contrarian advice" would be to feed very small portions to start (just a "sample").

Sourcing ingredients economically can be its own adventure, and will depend on local advantages, but I'll admit getting a "rush" now when a score like bison, elk, or dry-aged beef trim turns up at the nice price.

The results will show. Teeth stay pearly white, coats shine, and the Vs stay lean but well muscled. A day does not pass when someone (and it is usually dozens of people) comments on how healthy and vital Chester looks (and acts). A good diet builds helps stamina. Fat is the best "fuel"for canids (proven my scientific study) not carbohydrates (despite the claims of dog food cereal makers) which are not an essential part of a canine diet. Good proteins build and help repair muscle.

As to the negative press, canines have very strong digestive acids and a short digestive tract. Pathogens, like Salmonella in store bought Chicken, pose little-to-no threat to heathy dogs. It passes through them. My dog has had Chicken almost every day and never had an issue. Same with other raw fed dogs. People, on the other hand, do need to be careful and use safe handling practices, just as we would when feeding our (human) families. One tip is that spraying equal parts white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide (from separate bottles) on food prep areas is an extremely effective (and non-toxic) disinfectant that is more effective than bleach.

This was going to be a short post, but I'm afraid I've prattled on 

Best wishes,

Bill


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## einspänner

Spy said:


> It seems to me that a fair number of raw fed dogs that got organs like liver "late" develop an aversion to them. Where Chester, who got them from Day 1, eats lis liver first. Instead of "delay," my "contrarian advice" would be to feed very small portions to start (just a "sample").


That's really interesting, Bill. I would take your approach with a puppy I'd started on day one, but I'm not sure if I would do it differently with Scout who I transitioned at 5.5 months. I think she ended up getting liver within 2-3 weeks of switching and she is picky about it. I wonder if aversion to offal is more related to the age they first got it than how soon after first eating raw that they get it. Actually, now that I think about it, my chow who lives with my parents ate kibble her whole life and before getting Scout I tried giving her a chicken neck. She had no idea what to do with it and spat it out. After a year of watching Scout get these awesome meals, she started getting interested and ended up stealing a chunk of liver that Scout had set aside. Maybe there is something to your theory. She recently started refusing her kibble and I was finally able to convince my mom to switch her over. She's old, arthritic, and a little lethargic, but she lights up and dances like a puppy at meal times now. 

Ben, let us know if you have any follow-up questions. There's a lot to take in!


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## Spy Car

einspänner said:


> Spy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me that a fair number of raw fed dogs that got organs like liver "late" develop an aversion to them. Where Chester, who got them from Day 1, eats lis liver first. Instead of "delay," my "contrarian advice" would be to feed very small portions to start (just a "sample").
> 
> 
> 
> That's really interesting, Bill. I would take your approach with a puppy I'd started on day one, but I'm not sure if I would do it differently with Scout who I transitioned at 5.5 months. I think she ended up getting liver within 2-3 weeks of switching and she is picky about it. I wonder if aversion to offal is more related to the age they first got it than how soon after first eating raw that they get it. Actually, now that I think about it, my chow who lives with my parents ate kibble her whole life and before getting Scout I tried giving her a chicken neck. She had no idea what to do with it and spat it out. After a year of watching Scout get these awesome meals, she started getting interested and ended up stealing a chunk of liver that Scout had set aside. Maybe there is something to your theory. She recently started refusing her kibble and I was finally able to convince my mom to switch her over. She's old, arthritic, and a little lethargic, but she lights up and dances like a puppy at meal times now.
> 
> Ben, let us know if you have any follow-up questions. There's a lot to take in!
Click to expand...

Could be that I just got lucky. But I've seen a lot of advice on PMR forums to wait months (not weeks) before giving organs, and have noticed many of the same people giving that advise have dogs that are averse to organs. To the point where they nearly needed to force feed liver. So the "feed early" advise makes sense to me. I'd just realize the richness of organs is something that a dog needs to get used to and feed in very small quantities starting out. The organ meats in Chester's bowl are usually the first or second item he eats, and I include some in every meal.

Bill


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## Ben

Ok so we have now changed over to raw food. We started with ready prepared (Natural Instinct), to see how he got on and to build a bit of confidence in feeding him raw. (More for my partner). He's been on it for 3 weeks. He loved the change over and couldn't get enough of it to start with. We went for the most fatty foods as he doesn't hold weight very well. The first week he put on a Kilogram and started to look really good, coat improved and he started to look really full and healthy. However for the past few days he is just not interested and we weighed him this evening after 2 weeks since last checking and he has put no weight on. Is this normal? He doesn't look skinny he's just stopped growing. He's bang on 8months and weighs 26kgs.
Its been quite warm here lately but not anything out of the norm. (This is England)!!! Could this affect his eating?

We are feeding him 1,200g a day over 2 meal, morning/evening. Thats what the guidelines on the packet say. There is no way he could handle more as It so much food.

Is it normal to go through a stage like this? The not eating and not growing is slightly concerning. 
My partner has already jumped on the band wagon with the raw food being "bad" for him and saying he doesn't like it. So I would like to pull her off that as soon as possible!!!!!!

Any ideas?


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## organicthoughts

That is a lot of food. Way too much in my opinion. My dog is 3 and weighs 60 pounds and barely eats 500-600 grams a day.

I also only feed once a day and started this at around 8-9 months of age once the major growth phase has stopped.

My dog also fasts himself every few weeks. I pick up the food after 20 mins if he doesnt eat it and put it in the fridge. I then feed the same thing 24 hours later to avoid pickiness.

How are his poo's? Is there a lot coming out as waste? Raw food poo's should be pretty small and compact generally.


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## einspänner

Yeah now that he's a little older you could drop the percentage down a bit and/or feed once a day, though I'd say 500-600 is too low for his age. That said, the best advice I've gotten is to ignore numbers and go by the dog's appearance. Fat is great for him, but if he is getting mostly fattier mixes then he'll be satiated with less food. If his weight, energy level, and stools are all good, then he's probably all good and I'd wait this phase of low appetite out without worry. I just checked back over my girl's growth chart and she slowed down a lot around 7 months, only gaining 2 pounds until she was 10 months. So from that limited experience, I'd say it's normal for him to have stopped growing.


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## Spy Car

After a long period of rapid growth, 8 months is usually about the time is slows to a trickle. 

The growth plateau just happened to occur at the same time as the switch over to raw. But it would have happened anyway.

For perspective, my 14 month old V named Chester is at the top of the breed standard for height, well-muscled, and in athletic trim. He weight just under 27 kg (58.5 lbs). 26 kg is not slight for a 8 month old V.

Einspänner made an excellent point that high-fat diets (while a great source of energy for a working dog) do make them feel satiated. The advice to "feed for condition" (meaning they look lean feed more/porky feed less) rather than by the weight of food is also wise.

That said, as OTs said, seems like a lot of food to me. This is the age I cut back to one meal, because the growth rate slows.

If he is healthy, the coat is improved, etc. give him time. 8 months is the gawky stage, where growth slows and they are not exactly puppies, nor yet adult dogs. Completely normal.

Bill


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## Ben

organicthoughts said:


> That is a lot of food. Way too much in my opinion. My dog is 3 and weighs 60 pounds and barely eats 500-600 grams a day.
> 
> I also only feed once a day and started this at around 8-9 months of age once the major growth phase has stopped.
> 
> My dog also fasts himself every few weeks. I pick up the food after 20 mins if he doesnt eat it and put it in the fridge. I then feed the same thing 24 hours later to avoid pickiness.
> 
> How are his poo's? Is there a lot coming out as waste? Raw food poo's should be pretty small and compact generally.



This poo's are quite small and firm. We are doing the 20min down and if he doesn't eat it goes back in the fridge. My partner did have a habit of putting extra bits on his food, just to get him to eat. Maybe this has made him a bit picky!


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## Ben

Spy said:


> After a long period of rapid growth, 8 months is usually about the time is slows to a trickle.
> 
> The growth plateau just happened to occur at the same time as the switch over to raw. But it would have happened anyway.
> 
> For perspective, my 14 month old V named Chester is at the top of the breed standard for height, well-muscled, and in athletic trim. He weight just under 27 kg (58.5 lbs). 26 kg is not slight for a 8 month old V.
> 
> Einspänner made an excellent point that high-fat diets (while a great source of energy for a working dog) do make them feel satiated. The advice to "feed for condition" (meaning they look lean feed more/porky feed less) rather than by the weight of food is also wise.
> 
> That said, as OTs said, seems like a lot of food to me. This is the age I cut back to one meal, because the growth rate slows.
> 
> If he is healthy, the coat is improved, etc. give him time. 8 months is the gawky stage, where growth slows and they are not exactly puppies, nor yet adult dogs. Completely normal.
> 
> Bill


Thanks for the advice. I think its just a worry when he eats like its his last meal to not wanting anything. 

How many times do you feed him a day?


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## Ben

einspänner said:


> Yeah now that he's a little older you could drop the percentage down a bit and/or feed once a day, though I'd say 500-600 is too low for his age. That said, the best advice I've gotten is to ignore numbers and go by the dog's appearance. Fat is great for him, but if he is getting mostly fattier mixes then he'll be satiated with less food. If his weight, energy level, and stools are all good, then he's probably all good and I'd wait this phase of low appetite out without worry. I just checked back over my girl's growth chart and she slowed down a lot around 7 months, only gaining 2 pounds until she was 10 months. So from that limited experience, I'd say it's normal for him to have stopped growing.


I did wonder if the two would go hand in hand (Slowed growth/needing less food). 

Thanks


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## chilithevizsla

My dog was on 900g from around around 6 months but he started getting skinny and always hungry. He's on 1.2kg now, fed twice a day and still always looking for food but started filling out nicely so it's the right amount for him IMO. He's been the second tallest at the Viz Whizzes since around 8 months and is very slight compared to the other big boys.

As for not going for food, I wouldn't recommend reducing the amount of feeds but that's my personal preference, always fed my dogs twice a day and 1.2kg is a lot to eat in one meal. Great thing about NI or minced meat in general is you can shove it in kongs to feed to get him and get working and make the food interesting. I've experience quite a few people saying their dogs have gotten bored of NI or nutriment so it isn't the first case.

Are you just ordering the minces? I know nutriment and i think NI do Chicken Carcasses and raw meaty bones which will mix up the texture of his meals. If that doesn't work then it is certainly possible people are right and you can reduce the amount of food slowly.


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## Ben

Are you just ordering the minces? I know nutriment and i think NI do Chicken Carcasses and raw meaty bones which will mix up the texture of his meals. If that doesn't work then it is certainly possible people are right and you can reduce the amount of food slowly.
[/quote]

We are feed just minces atm. We have tried duck necks but he doesn't really like them. He plays with them and the leaves them uneaten. We might try the chicken carcasses. 

He sounds much like your pup, He stands at 25.5" but very slight. 

(Picture is from a few weeks ago).


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## chilithevizsla

Yes very big boy! He actually looks nicely proportioned from that photo. His underside looks quite pink, may just be the lighting?
Have you tried feeding the mixes slightly frozen? Gives more crunch and texture to the food and is great for cooling down the dogs in summer.


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## Spy Car

Ben said:


> Spy said:
> 
> 
> 
> After a long period of rapid growth, 8 months is usually about the time is slows to a trickle.
> 
> The growth plateau just happened to occur at the same time as the switch over to raw. But it would have happened anyway.
> 
> For perspective, my 14 month old V named Chester is at the top of the breed standard for height, well-muscled, and in athletic trim. He weight just under 27 kg (58.5 lbs). 26 kg is not slight for a 8 month old V.
> 
> Einspänner made an excellent point that high-fat diets (while a great source of energy for a working dog) do make them feel satiated. The advice to "feed for condition" (meaning they look lean feed more/porky feed less) rather than by the weight of food is also wise.
> 
> That said, as OTs said, seems like a lot of food to me. This is the age I cut back to one meal, because the growth rate slows.
> 
> If he is healthy, the coat is improved, etc. give him time. 8 months is the gawky stage, where growth slows and they are not exactly puppies, nor yet adult dogs. Completely normal.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I think its just a worry when he eats like its his last meal to not wanting anything.
> 
> How many times do you feed him a day?
Click to expand...

At about 8 months I went to once a day. What was an appropriate amount of food prior to the plateau in the growth rate was beginning to put a little too much girth for my taste. I do believe Vs should be kept lean and muscular.

My V never showed a disinterest in his meals. But dogs are highly variable that way. 

Bill


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## Spy Car

Ben said:


> Are you just ordering the minces? I know nutriment and i think NI do Chicken Carcasses and raw meaty bones which will mix up the texture of his meals. If that doesn't work then it is certainly possible people are right and you can reduce the amount of food slowly.


We are feed just minces atm. We have tried duck necks but he doesn't really like them. He plays with them and the leaves them uneaten. We might try the chicken carcasses. 

He sounds much like your pup, He stands at 25.5" but very slight. 

(Picture is from a few weeks ago).
[/quote]

Best I can tell your V looks great!

He is well-muscled, strong looking, broad across the chest (remarkably so for an 8 month old) and looks lean.

I don't think you could hope for better than this myself. This is the Vizsla archetype. 

Bill


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## Ben

Result!!! He's just eaten all his tea. I think he was just being a little fussy, in the hope he might get something else!
He was probably so hungry he just had to give in. They are funny dogs. 

We don't see many V's where we are, so its hard to tell how well he's doing. 

We will be taking him to the next Viz Whizz at the end of June so he can get a bit of interaction with other V's.

Thanks again for all your feedback.


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## Ben

Hi, puppies not eating again and now starting to look quite skinny. 
Could it be that he doesn't like the Raw food. He just doesn't seem to be interested in it. He will eat a bit then walk away or just turn his nose up at it. I really want to keep him on the food but is he just being fussy or could there be something else wrong. My partner thinks he could have a blockage, but then surely it would affect how he is too. He's still very lively and full of energy but he's not putting back into his body what he's taking out. Yesterday we went out for over an hours walk and he hardly ate anything when we came home. (less than 1/3 of his daily amount). I will post some photos for you to all to see. 
I also have a feeling if we take him to the vets they will do numerous different tests and come to the conclusion that he is just trying to manipulate us. (I could have come to that conclusion, and I would rather not pay a fortune for them to tell me that).
Any thoughts, I'm starting to despair!


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## einspänner

I wish it was going better for you. I'm trying to remember, was he picky with his food prior to the change? If so, it's probably not a health issue like a blockage, but peace of mind might be worth a trip to the vet. It can take some dogs time to get used to raw because it's so different and some don't like mince while others won't eat whole things. A few suggestions would be to:
Put it down for 15 minutes and if he doesn't eat, pick it up and stick it back to the fridge until next meal time. Don't offer any other food or treats in that time. I wouldn't do this longer than 2 days myself. 
Hand feed
Praise him for showing interest in the food (this gets my girl to eat things she's unsure about)
Make little balls out of the mince, make him do tricks, and reward him by tossing the balls to him (tossing is important because he'd likely snatch it out of the air before any texture aversion starts up)
Feed it partially frozen or warmed slightly. 
Whole cuts instead of mince
Add-ins like pumpkin, cottage cheese, yogurt, salmon oil

And hey if none of those work, raw isn't going to be better for him it if he won't eat it. In that case try switching to a homemade cooked diet or a higher quality kibble and try offering him raw meaty bones on occasion. Over time he may warm up to them and they'll be a gateway to a raw diet in the future.


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## Ben

Feed it partially frozen or warmed slightly. 
Whole cuts instead of mince
Add-ins like pumpkin, cottage cheese, yogurt, salmon oil

Just chopped it up frozen and he's gone mad for it, dribbling all over the place. It looks like its a texture thing. I might try clopping a block in half in the morning and hopefully he'll just chew at it as if it were a bone.

Thanks for the help again. We will get there.


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## gingerling

IDk, Ben. I've been following this thread and the thing that stands out for me isn't so much what you feed your V, but rather your anxiety. Raw is really controversial for a lot of good reasons (V's are domesticated and their nutritional needs are different than 'Wild" dogs, the bacteria concern in raw food, and perhaps most importantly, the lack of balance in a raw diet unless you really know what you're feeding and/or have consulted a doggie nutritionist).

But that aside, I think there's just so much anxiety there for you, i think resolving that should be primary, it seems to be affecting your perceptions and therefore your decisions. You can choose a raw diet (as many here have), but I think it always best to make those decisions with a clear head...

You've mentioned that you're taking your V to the vet..I really like that idea, let him/her check him over thoroughly and rule out any physical conditions, and provide you with some reassurance and some basic info about your dog and his nutritional requirements..and maybe work with a trainer so both of you can become more confident.


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## Ben

Gingerling said:


> IDk, Ben. I've been following this thread and the thing that stands out for me isn't so much what you feed your V, but rather your anxiety. Raw is really controversial for a lot of good reasons (V's are domesticated and their nutritional needs are different than 'Wild" dogs, the bacteria concern in raw food, and perhaps most importantly, the lack of balance in a raw diet unless you really know what you're feeding and/or have consulted a doggie nutritionist).
> 
> But that aside, I think there's just so much anxiety there for you, i think resolving that should be primary, it seems to be affecting your perceptions and therefore your decisions. You can choose a raw diet (as many here have), but I think it always best to make those decisions with a clear head...
> 
> You've mentioned that you're taking your V to the vet..I really like that idea, let him/her check him over thoroughly and rule out any physical conditions, and provide you with some reassurance and some basic info about your dog and his nutritional requirements..and maybe work with a trainer so both of you can become more confident.


I do agree with most of this. We are first time dog owners so we are learning as we go along slightly. I feel our reason for changing to raw food were justified. I had looked at both sides of the argument and raw was our choice with his best interests at heart. I understand that there are questions over the nutritional values of raw compared to what a bag of kibble says on the packet. (I question how accurate they are). We had him on a few different kibbles based on review of websites none however resulted in him holding a healthy weight so we owed it to him to try raw. Apart from him noting eating a lot at the moment the results are a healthier looking dog. Him not eating I am starting to understand after speaking to the vet is a problem we have created our selfs. We have fussed over him and catered to him too much. We just have to be as stubborn with his food as he is. When he realises we won't be moved he'll start eating again.


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## gingerling

Ben, feeding shouldn't be a control struggle btwn you and the dog. It's good you can see the eating issue is one you've created yourself, out of your own anxiety..my point is that it's important to get a handle on your own emotional reactions here, he senses that and is likely responding to it. A hungry dog will eventually eat anything. 

You can go raw, it seems fairly popular based on the comments here (as well as the silence to my reply). I'd encourage you to at least get some nutritional guidance so the raw stuff you're giving him is properly balanced and contains the nutrients that he needs. What he "looks like" on the outside is only one indicator of what his overall health is. 

Good luck!


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## R E McCraith

the DIET ? what a CAN of worms !!!!! PIKE would eat a can of worms - the forum has so many posts and replys - all of them great if it works 4 their pup - in the first few mo's - what is the rush ? the pup changes every day - you play catch up - if a health issue - go 2 several vets - no perfect V !!!!! no perfect owner !!!!!!! just a fact of life - enjoy the pup - they grow up 2 fast !!!!!!!!!


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## Spy Car

Hey Ben, 

Sorry, you don't deserve this treatment. Everyone that owns a dog has to be a first-time dog owner at some point in their life. It sounds like you and your partner are very committed to your Vizsla, and you ought to be praised for that.

I think your feeding decision is pretty wise too. You see the difference with your own eyes. Plenty of "old-timers" haven't figured out what you have. As Einspänner suggested to you (and you saw when you served some frozen portions) the texture of meals can effect some picky eaters. You seem to have one of those. You could call the Vs bluff, or modify the meals (including serving some whole meats, RMBs, and organs are a good idea anyway IMO, vs just serving minces) or try frozen or warm.

De-stressing is probably a very good idea. 

All the best,

Bill


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## chilithevizsla

Gingerling said:


> Raw is really controversial for a lot of good reasons (V's are domesticated and their nutritional needs are different than 'Wild" dogs, the bacteria concern in raw food, and perhaps most importantly, the lack of balance in a raw diet unless you really know what you're feeding and/or have consulted a doggie nutritionist).


Those aren't "good" reasons at all. Dogs are domesticated but only in the last 100 years have they had access to any form of kibble and even then researched and appropriate kibble has been around for a lot short span of time.
Dogs are survivors, they used to be fed on scraps and bread, not the best diet at all but they managed to "survive" on it, our aim as pet owners is for them to thrive!

Bacteria is managed the same way you manage raw chicken for your own dinner, follow hygiene protocols, source repeatable meats and you can't go wrong.

Lack of balance? Raw is well researched and based off of the natural ratio of prey animals. Not to mention the brands we're talking about are premixed so there is no guess work being done here. Maybe if the OP was feeding DIY raw then he could be getting it wrong but I find people feeding raw very well researched because of how daunting and complicated it seems.
Kibble lacks variety as people usually stick to one flavor so you could certainly argue that it isn't balanced either. Raw feeders recommend at least 3 different species a week, pretty sure kibble isn't supplying that.

I'm honestly sick of the whole raw vs kibble argument, people attack raw based off of misinformation and old research and people who feed raw now think they're superior and kibble is murdering your dog. Raw is a life style choice, it takes longer to prepare and needs more storage space so not everyone can do it. As long as your diet choice is well researched and appropriate for a healthy dog then you're all good.

I think this problem is down to texture of the food, a lot of other dog owners have experienced it with the premixed raw diets and serving frozen usually solves it. It's the same with offal, people usually have a problem getting into their dog because it's slimy and gross but feed it frozen in a stick and they'll usually eat it no problems. Dogs are designed to eat things with crunch and texture, not slop!
I always feed my slightly frozen, partially because I'm unorganized but mostly because it takes longer for them to eat and acts as a little enrichment, not to mention they prefer the texture. Also it's great for cooling the dog down in this hot weather.

OP keep at it, add some chicken carcasses and meaty bones to your order and feed a small bit in every meal, you can even stuff the chicken carcass with the meat for a more natural feel.


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