# How rough is too rough?



## hcrowder (Dec 26, 2013)

Penny is 14 weeks old and I took her to the park this morning to let her play off lead with the other dogs. But one dog was really aggressive. I let them play for a little while but when Penny yelped and the tried her best to run away (tail between her legs) with this other dog pursuing her I stepped in and broke up the play. For about ten minutes the other dog kept following us and trying to bite at Penny. 

When do you step in and break up play? Or do you let the dogs sort it out on their own? This other dog was about the same height as Penny but he was at least a couple years old. Does age matter?

Penny loves to play and romp with other puppies and her bite is really soft with them. Never a growl or yip. This was the first time I have felt like my dog might get hurt.


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## CatK (May 29, 2013)

In my head (but I'm still very much learning), if both dogs are going for it and clearly enjoying the rough play, then I'll let them go for quite a while. Morris has one friend he will play with till the sun goes down, and anyone who didn't know dogs would swear they were fighting, but they love it and will curl up with each other later in the day. They'll also stop playing whenever we tell them to, if we're somewhere it's not appropriate (kids about etc). 

However, if one dog is showing totally submissive/scared posture, and the other one isn't taking the hint, then I expect the owner of the dog who is being a bully to step in and correct the behaviour. There is one dog in the area who is a bully, Morris runs over to us tail between legs then freezes while this other dog keeps snapping at his neck and humping him. Morris looks miserable and the owner of the other dog immediately pulls him off. We obviously take detours to avoid this dog.

I'll be interested to hear if I've misunderstood how to treat this.

Edit: Morris is 9.5 months, at 14 weeks I'd have had a much lower tolerance of bully dogs as you want all interaction to be positive.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

A puppy submitting to a older dog is normal.
What you run into at dog parks, is the dog that will still go after another dog that is submitting. Which is not the norm for a well balanced dog. Its as you described as a bully. They will repeatedly keep pestering your pup until it makes a mistake, and many times leads to a bite.
I don't like to interfere with normal dog activity, but some dogs do not know how to be the higher dog in the pack.
Your pup is much to young to protect itself from a bully.
I would have stepped in.


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## hcrowder (Dec 26, 2013)

I am happy to hear that I was right in stepping in. I fully expect older dogs to put Penny in her place but this dog just didn't let up and Penny was being completely submissive. I really wish the owner would have been the one to step in but he was not interested in monitoring his dog. 

I ran into a lady and her dog later that had the same experience. I guess we know to look out for this dog in the future.


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## Vizsla Baby (Nov 4, 2011)

We only go to the dog park when our yard is so muddy that our dogs will damage it. So, with the rain we've had in the last 12 months, that's about twice a week!!

I always watch out for the dogs who are "bully's". Just yesterday our female was minding her own business, chasing her ball & bringing it back. An 85 pound dog kept running with her and then blocking her so she could not get around him. I could tell she was nervous around him which annoys me because I brought her to have fun! Owner of course was no where to be found.

Fortunately our dog park has a big & small dog side so we just go to the small dog side when there are issues like this. (I always ask the owners there if they mind and they always say no - many of them know our gentle dogs). If someone did mind, we'd just leave. It's not worth an injury.

I hate to admit it, but I also profile breeds. Whenever an American bulldog, a doberman, a pit bull, etc come in, I watch them like a hawk. They aren't always aggressive, but they frequently are. And many of them have owners who don't care, they bought a bully breed for a reason.

When in doubt, step in, but you will probably have to leave for the safety of your dog.


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## Watson (Sep 17, 2012)

I think 14 weeks is too young to be playing with random dogs, especially at a typical dog park. Good for you for stepping in, Penny is still young and you want her experiences with other dogs to be good ones!

Watson is a year and a half now, and even though he is mostly well behaved and friendly, he recently went through a stage where he was over correcting puppies for no reason at all, although he doesn't seek them out. I believe it's an insecurity stage, and not him being aggressive. I definitely corrected him though, as I know how scary it would be for other owners, and also don't want him to think he can be a bully. I understand having to socialize your dog, but I personally controlled Watson's interaction with other dogs until he was about a year and could push back a bit, or run away from them!


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

I would be very careful about taking a 14 week old pup to a dog park period. Who knows what people have or more importantly HAVEN'T vaccinated for. All sorts of nasty stuff out there that can be spread... 

I don't take pups under six months to a place like that.... At least six months to make sure that their immune systems are strong enough. 
I understand that they need socializing and such, I really do. And they have just tons of energy to burn. But I think that taking them where you know the dogs and trust the dogs and owners is a bit more important. A little bit of caution now can save you a lot of money and heartache potentially.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

I agree it's best to avoid the dog park until she's older. I stupidly took Scout to a small one when she was 12 weeks. Not to play with other dogs, but to introduce her to water. We have gators around here, so I didn't feel comfortable taking her to other ponds. Anyway, she got a fever and I almost took her to the emergency vet before it went down to a safe level. She ended up being fine. 


With rough play if one of them is consistently knocked to the ground or otherwise dominated, it is a good idea to restrain the stronger dog and see if the other dog returns to play. If instead she takes that as an opportunity to run to safety then end play. If you ask the owner to restrain their dog and they brush you off by saying "oh he's just playing," then scoop up your dog and get out of there. If they can't respect your wish you don't want your dog around them.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Even though it appears that most have to remove the pup that is not the aggressor, it should not be that way. 
People that own the dogs that have not learned correct dog language, or missing perfect opportunities to correct their dog.
My dog Cash loves most other dogs but hates one of the Labradors that we hunt with. Cash considered him a pest when the lab was younger on a hunt, and has never forgotten it. The lab owner was trying to have their dog keep its distance, and I told them don't worry about it.
If Cash makes a unprovoked moved toward their dog, he will receive a heavy correction from me. I waited for the perfect moment. Cash had hackles up and chest out walking toward the dog. I never said a word because he had been told earlier. A foot from the other dog, just as he started to growl. I lite him up with the ecollar. He tucked tail and came to heel. He didn't try to confront the lab for the rest of the hunt.


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## hcrowder (Dec 26, 2013)

I am interested in the responses about not taking Penny to the park because of her age. In the UK she is fully vaccinated (has been for a couple weeks) and we were advised to take her to the local off lead park so she could meet other dogs and have a good run off lead. 

Was I silly to take this advice? We have another park that is very close and rarely has other dogs that I can easily take her to instead if that is a better option.


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

Puppies are very vulnerable to disease and infection. 

I would recommend calling a local trainer/ pet store. Many have puppy socialization classes that may be a safer way to get her interacting with other dogs. Many full grown dogs don't like puppies, so a dog park runs that risk, as well as a little puppy getting trampled. 

With Miles, our 2 year old, we were very fortunate to have a chow puppy and a golden puppy in the neighborhood same age so we had puppy play dates. We also took him to the pet store for their puppy social hour until he was 16 weeks. With Chase, our 9 month old, he got to interact with dogs that we know were fully vaccinated, and had the company of Miles so he didn't get puppy social class. We also live nearby his 2 brothers so we would get them together. 

If we go to a dog park, we go with the mindset that we may need to leave as soon as we get there depending on the situation. We usually hang off to the side and play fetch with the boys unless a friend or familiar dog is there and then we let them play. 

It's not worth the risk with dogs you don't know. Our poor Miles was attacked while he was on leash by a dog who didn't like puppies when he was 5 months, and I always wonder how much this has contributed to some of his fear based behaviors. We were more lax with Chase on training/ discipline and in general worried much less with him with the exception of protecting him from strange dogs. He is a far more confident dog and has never been attacked.


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## Watson (Sep 17, 2012)

I didn't socialize Watson that way because it seems that young puppies often get picked on, and Watson definitely did when he was young. He did play with other dogs, but it was mostly ones we knew and were comfortable with. I would take the opportunity to go to the other park that doesn't have a lot of unknown dog traffic and work on building your own bond with her, as well as training her. 

Socializing a dog properly requires you to be in control of a situation, and not just exposing her to any and everything you can. 

And yes, puppies are susceptible to getting as V-John put it "who knows what" when exposed to dogs you don't know well.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Scout had her second round of vaccinations before I took her, but she still got sick. They just have weak immune systems at that age and can catch bugs easily. 

That's only part of the issue with dog parks though. Having her meet dogs is only valuable if they are well balanced and often times they aren't at dog parks. I go to them occasionally, but more to let her swim than to play with other dogs.

Dog to dog socialization is important, so I'd recommend looking for a puppy socialization class or asking your vet about other new puppy clients or even adult dogs to have playdates with. Are there any forum members in your area you could get together with? Trust me you'd be doing them a favor. We all love puppies!


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## Ksana (Mar 30, 2013)

hcrowder said:


> When do you step in and break up play? Or do you let the dogs sort it out on their own?


I don't find other owners to be of much help as most of owners believe their dogs are angels. If another dog is a bully (I find the Akita breed is often on a bully side) or several dogs team up and pick on my boy (neutered/ spayed against my intact and still young male), I step in with no hesitation, with mean look on my face, metal in my voice and claim the space with my body and my hands. I learned this from one of the TV episodes and this seem to be working. 

I just came back from two and half hours walk in the off leash area; we have a holiday day here. We met hundreds of dogs in there; lots of positive experience and great plays, with only two or three steps in needed from me.


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## hcrowder (Dec 26, 2013)

Thanks everyone. We went to the park that seldom has dogs this morning and ran into a dog that our trainer had mentioned to us. He is a white German Shepard so he was easy to spot. As I knew this dog was good from our trainer I let Penny plan with him. They had a great time. 

I do love when she plays with other dogs because it is the only time she gets fast exercise. She will only chase a toy half the time and never brings it back and I can't possibly play as fast as she can run. She loves to get her energy out zooming but that only really happens with other dogs. 

She is in a socialization and training class once a week. She needs daily exercise as you all know. The trainer was the one that suggested this particular park for letting her off lead and meeting other dogs. It is very large so if we do go back we can hang off to the side or go to another area. There are three dog exercise areas but most people use the main grassy area in the middle for playing with their dogs. It is about the size of two football fields so it is easy to get away from other dogs (if their owners are even semi attentive). 

Thanks for all the responses. I feel more confident stepping into dog play if I don't like it now that it seems the norm from responsible owners like yourselves.


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