# how would you handle it?



## emilycn (Jul 30, 2013)

Hi all,

Lua (16.5 weeks) has been displaying some growling and snapping behaviors (I don't know if it's aggression, so I won't call it that) in the last week or so. I'm not sure how to handle this particular undesirable behavior, so I will do my best to describe what's going on and ask what you all would do.

Lua started showing a little bit of resource guarding at her food bowl when she was particularly hungry or there was something new and really tasty in there at around 12 to 14 weeks. If we tried to pick her up or pull her away from the food, she would give us a sort of high-energy or high-excitement growl and turn her head quickly as if to bite our hands (she never actually made contact, but whether that's because she missed or she was warning us, I can't tell). I started hand feeding, leaving my hand in her food bowl, picking up the bowl and adding something tasty before returning it, etc. in order to fix the resource guarding. The food bowl issue is easily managed now, and we hadn't seen that behavior any other time.

Then at 16 weeks, the growling and snapping occurred again, only this time in response to being picked up. The first time it happened, Lua was really tired and potentially sore after a long playdate and had been sleeping in my lap while some friends were over watching a movie. When one friend was saying goodbye and tried to pick up Lua (at the time, awake and saw her coming, but very tired) to say goodbye, Lua gave a low-energy, low-excitement growl and then snapped at the friend as she tried to pick her up. This time Lua made contact, but didn't break any skin or cause any pain with her bite (just surprise on the part of my friend and myself). The friend gave up trying to pick Lua up, and just patted her goodbye, which Lua accepted with no issue.

Later that night, I left Lua resting on the couch while I got ready for bed. In the past, Lua has been so tired and lazy that I have to pick her up and carry her to bed --- she was exhibiting the same "i'm too tired to move" behavior when I went out to the living room to call her for bed, so I went to pick her up and carry her to bed. As I picked her up (again, no surprise, as she saw me coming), she gave me the same low growl and snapping behavior she gave my friend (she didn't actually make contact, though), so I ignored her behavior and followed through with my action in a no-nonsense manner. She quit growling almost as soon as she was securely in my arms. 

Then yesterday during a playdate in another friend's backyard, Lua was sniffing something interesting when my friend walked up behind her to pick her up (but was talking to her, and her approach should not have been a surprise). Lua gave her the low-energy growl and got snappy again (didn't make contact, though), and then trotted off to see what her buddy what up to. 

I'm not sure what to make of this behavior (why it's happening) and how to make it stop. In none of the instances of this behavior was she surprised, in two of the three she was really tired, and she doesn't seem to have a pattern of who she shows this behavior to (me, men, women, people she's met before, people she knows well, etc). So what do you all think this is, and how do you think I should get rid of the behavior?

Thanks,

Emily


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

organic
That was my first thought too.
But then I got to thinking about the times I do need to pick my dogs up. As pups I would lift them in and out of the truck.
At the vets office to lift them up on the table, and I put them in dogs boxes that are in the back ranger. At those times they are not sleeping.
I think the days of just carrying your pup around are over, but I would still work with her on places that she needs to be lifted up.


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## emilycn (Jul 30, 2013)

none taken! I'm tired of picking her up, myself --- she's around 22 lbs already! I'll try to keep lifting her to a minimum and just work on it in scenarios where she needs to be picked up (i.e., the vet's office, lifted into the car). Good ideas, guys. What do you think she is saying in "dog language" with that behavior? It throws me for a loop because it doesn't seem like an "ouch that hurts" reaction or a "don't come near my couch or my person-bed" warning. I just can't tell what is it she's trying to communicate. I nearby advocate for teaching all dogs to speak english.


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## emilycn (Jul 30, 2013)

that makes a lot of sense. I feel like I was getting worked up and worried over nothing now! funny how an outside perspective can provide so much clarity...


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

organicthoughts said:


> If she was really upset about it, skin would be broken.... She's just testing you and trying to train you. Flip it around.


This. But I also think that the behavior can get worse if something isn't done.


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## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

Zero of this is personal to you.

At this stage single commands only then rewards are needed

no picks no carry the mate.

I would also at times reduce yourself"

trust your abilities and get down more to there level if your working with the pup.

They must respect you not fear you

You are there Leader there learning bench and you must support progressive positive out thinking your pup with daily work and commands make it simple and keep it constant .

Real short core exercise could help you as well in this growing learning process For Both of you.

Come, sit, heal, stay and hold

You could just stay on these for about 2 weeks

then add to the mix of progress 

if your outside I used my daughters horse long lead rope as well

just to lead never to just follow just light urges and a short 1 sound each command simple whistle for each command

then embrace the short gains good girl Good boy a Voice reward know is a must

I would do zero more pick ups right now

Make the mates attention spans to your voice commands only

You will win this one and make sure both of you are having some fun

No risks no rewards

Your are the leader of your personal wolf pack

Have some fun


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## Nelly (Feb 7, 2013)

The low growl hints to me a simple warning like 'back off guys! Doing my thing here!'

I agree with Rudy. Find some exercises that will create a mutual respect between the two of you. One of the best and most simple things I was taught as a dog owner was to stop looming over them. It's a natural reaction for us, as they are lower down, but really it can scare the bejesus out of puppies and does our backs no favours either! 

Good job on the guarding. Sounds like she is an independant woman


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## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

This is just example of a fast hard push

We work on 40 to 75 yards out max and controlled wind sprints not long running

that can damage a mate 

They are built to go back and forth and cover mass grounds side to side and 100 yards max going out 

this is also pressed DNA if you just help them some.

The Pocket Rocket Willow is full on nuts : but supports the clam ;D

age just know 9 months She is a tiny smaller Red V girl :-*



Big Rud the Gladiator and his Cobs  that could humble a Rhino just turned age 4.

They were full on nuts this morning just before a pre feeding I grabbed both of them 

and worked them hard for about 35 to 40 minutes of cutting skills and wind sprints and always checking my leads my hand and whistle commands and my one words only and some light creek work


Here is there example for at least the next 3 hours thank Lord 

after reaching there needs

with all of the above

there expired there full there happy and know at Peace 

they settle in fine when you feed there DNA and earned trail mix they need or even exceed


I just took the picture as a example for you 

We wins


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## emilycn (Jul 30, 2013)

what good buddies, Rudy. I've been following some of your advice and I think I can feel a small difference in our relationship already. I may have inadvertently been intimidating her by always hovering over her when I wanted her to do something. She seems to like to work with just a bit more personal space.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Name your pup NO or DOWN ! they will hear that alot - I'm old school - a growl - picked up by the scruff of the neck - off the ground - on their back - a gentle hand on the throat - just like their MOM - the other side is - I hand feed my pups the first week - put a end 2 bad behavior at once ! or ask the same ? 6mo or 4yrs from now - leader of the pack or not - your choice - Ecollar I love them - starts only when the pup knows his commands - 6mo 2 a year - end it now or liVe with it 4ever ! never make excuses 4 the pup - if wrong - it is your fault -


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

R said:


> Name your pup NO or DOWN ! they will hear that alot - I'm old school - a growl - picked up by the scruff of the neck - off the ground - on their back - a gentle hand on the throat - just like their MOM - the other side is - I hand feed my pups the first week - put a end 2 bad behavior at once ! or ask the same ? 6mo or 4yrs from now - leader of the pack or not - your choice - Ecollar I love them - starts only when the pup knows his commands - 6mo 2 a year - end it now or liVe with it 4ever ! never make excuses 4 the pup - if wrong - it is your fault -


I guess, Im a bit old school too. If I want to pick up the dog, Im going to pick up the dog. If I want to sit where the dog is sitting on the couch, the dog is going to move. If I want to enter that dog's personal space then I will do so. I am the pack leader, not the dog. I'm telling it what to do, not the other way around.
The eight month old pup was laying in our bed and I felt that she needed to move a little bit. She growled at me when I moved her.. We had a discussion (much like R.E. is talking about) and we came to the conclusion that I didn't appreciate that and that she was going to move when I told her to. 
If seen too many dogs end up being the boss and then even more issues arise. 

Remember, you aren't asking the dog to do something, you are telling it.


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## Green (Oct 5, 2012)

Agreed. My V is 60 lbs and I pick him up when I feel like it, plop him on my lap, no problem. I stick my finger in his mouth if he eats something nasty to fish it out before he swallows it, no problem. I hand fed him at the beginning and he prefers to eat when I'm around. I wouldn't tolerate any growling from my dog unless he was hurt, which isn't the case.


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## emilycn (Jul 30, 2013)

I also agree with what you're saying RE, VJohn, and Green. That was my first instinct, but I don't know how to tell her that I don't like that attitude in a "punishment fits the crime" sense. What exactly would you all do if it was your puppy?

But, I also wanted to check with the forum members and see what y'alls opinion of her behavior is. To me, it doesn't seem downright nasty, but it is attitude enough to make me want to nip it right in the bud and tell her that that type of behavior is absolutely unacceptable. If, as some earlier posters have suggested (Nelly, Organic, rudy), the cause of her behavior is pain or reasonable (in puppy's eyes) fear that I and my friends are causing, then I need to adjust that and then re-evaluate her behavior in those scenarios. My fist thought about her growling and snapping was (forgive the colloquialism) "Oh No She Didn't... that's gotta go," but it's only fair to examine whether I deserve some of the blame for causing her unusual or extreme discomfort.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Em - I never ever punish the PUP - just correct it - you do it in a moment of time - past that - the pup has no IDEA ! - if you raise your voice or hand - who has lost control ? not the PUP - just a reminder - a VVVVery soft breed !


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## CrazyCash (Jul 12, 2012)

I agree with what others have said - you need to show her that you are the boss and she needs to obey. I get the feeling that she just wants things her way and she's trying to get you to go along with it. I got my guy Cash from my vet and he had recently had major surgery. He stayed with my vet for about a month while he was recovering and my vet (who definitely knows better) was carrying him around too much and Cash got used to it. When I brought him home he expected the same treatment from me. I admit at first it was easy to baby him and give him that extra attention because he had been through so much, but then one day I realized that he was just getting bigger and someday I would end up carrying a 60 pound dog around. I had to put a stop to it and the key is follow through, when I told him to do something that he didn't want to do I just made sure that I enforced it. Now he is 60 pounds but the only time that I carry him is out of the car or vet's office. 

My girl Penny was very mouthy when I got her (she was about six months old) and she would nip if I took something away from her or sometimes if I told her no. That had to stop right away, but it was fairly easy - when she nipped at me I firmly said "no bites" and if I was taking something away from her I would continue and take it away, then I walked away from her and leave her alone. The worst punishment that I can do to either of the dogs is ignore them, they are very sensitive and do not like being ignored. 

You know your girl, when she does this behavior, make sure she knows it's not acceptable or she won't be able to continue with whatever it is that she wants. If she's on your lap and growls or snaps at anyone, tell her no, stand up, she goes on the floor and you walk away - she doesn't get to stay in her cozy spot and she doesn't get to stay near you. Just be consistent - you are nipping it in the bud so hopefully she won't test you too much.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Em - sit back & slow down - if a health issue - go 2 the Vet - socialization starts at home - bring people 2 your pup = if off the wall - put him up - bring him back - at the end of the day - the mutt will V in your lap - what is important ? a happy V - get 2 this POINT - no probemlo - LOL


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Green said:


> Agreed. My V is 60 lbs and I pick him up when I feel like it, plop him on my lap, no problem. I stick my finger in his mouth if he eats something nasty to fish it out before he swallows it, no problem. I hand fed him at the beginning and he prefers to eat when I'm around. I wouldn't tolerate any growling from my dog unless he was hurt, which isn't the case.


I don't think its right to believe every V has the same temperament.
Or that all training methods work the same on every dog/pup. 
Its trial and error till you find what works best for the 
individual pup. It maybe a combination of two programs slightly adjusted that fit.
While your figuring it out watch the body language of your pup very carefully.
Most of the time it will let you know what she is going to do, before she does it.


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## emilycn (Jul 30, 2013)

RE, "punishment" was in quotes on purpose --- don't worry, I know better than to get violent with a dog and that there's no sense admonishing a dog for something unless you catch them in the act. 

I've been very careful with socialization, also. I want an unflappable dog, so i've followed a 4 page checklist of things to expose her to and gotten through most of it. 

My concern with her growling behavior is first, whether she is doing it for a valid reason, and second, if it's just her giving me some defiant attitude, how do i show her it's unacceptable?


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## mlwindc (Feb 8, 2013)

Not an expert here but I do have a one year old male who is unflappable. He was a handful as a pup, but is a model citizen now. My son and his friends -- ages 4-5, can all lay on him and hug him and he's just fine. Loves it in fact!

For your issue with picking her up to go to bed -- I wouldn't pick her up anymore to get her to do something. Call her name, walk towards the door, get her a treat -- anything to make her think it's her idea and good things happen. She may not like being awoken and manhandled when she's tired and comfortable. Wilson often doesn't want to go outside when he's tired or it's cold -- we use treats and praise and try to make it fun. Sometimes we jog around the block of need be -/ he's always happy to play! 

Now that w is older, he does bark sometimes at things he thinks are frightening and/or new (second fear phase). I give him a quick "no" and then, depending on what it is, may walk up to the item nonchalantly and say the name of it. For example, statutes totally freak w out. He will get down and bark at them. I say no, then briskly walk over and circle the statute. He's free to sniff or whatever -- the point is to show him nothing to fear and I'm in control.


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## mlwindc (Feb 8, 2013)

Just wanted to add -- I am very much with v-John, my pup isn't the boss of the house, he does what we want and when. If he's sitting on the couch and I want him to move, I move him. Same with any other behaviors. I once wrestled a chicken bone from his mouth -- his jaws were clenched but there was no aggression at all. One thing we still do with Wilson when he gets worked up is -- we stand up, right over him, and look down with our arms crossed. Somehow the disapproval is clear and he gets right down. As a pup, that didn't always work so we would just kennel him (treat of course) as a time out and to let him relax. We also found that prior to 8 months or so, w would get so tired and overstimulated that he would lose his bloody mind. A 30 min nap in his crate was helpful for everyone to reset.


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## Melissa_DT (Jan 9, 2013)

I had a similar problem with my boy Bentley when he past about 6 months of age. He started getting really possessive of things, like any bone/chew he REALLY liked, his dog bed, the bed, etc. He was especially grumpy with my cat, who he would growl at and even snap at a couple times if she walked to close to him while he was comfortable (sleepy) or chewing a treat. He never snapped at me, but he did growl a few times. The first time it happened I immediately decided it was not behavior that I was going to tolerate. I followed the advice many people on this forum gave me and it helped a lot. 

First, I removed all couch and bed privileges, including putting his dog bed away during the day for a while. He needed to learn that nothing belonged to him and if he wanted to get his privileges back he needed to earn them. Likewise, if he was laying somewhere and I needed to move him, I will move him and he will let me. For this I went to the dollar store and got a cheap light leash to keep attached to him at all times in the house that I could grab a hold of if needed. I did the treat method others describe for the most part. After a couple times I could tell by the look on his face when he was about to growl, so I'd be sure to catch him in that moment and redirect his energy with a treat in my hand and praise him and give him the treat if he remained quiet and didn't growl. I slowly started letting him sleep int he bed again, watching for when the cat jumped up on the bed and ensuring I grabbed him attention right away and treated and praised. I would try to do the same for when you go to pick her up. Call her name as you approach and let her know you have a treat and if she demonstrates good behavior she will get it. I know some dog's don't like to be picked up, but tough luck for them because you need to be able to pick the dog up with out issue for many reasons that have already listed.


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## FLgatorgirl (Mar 11, 2013)

I absolutely agree with Texas Red in that all of these dogs have a different temperament and what works for one might not work for another. Some of the earlier old school methods suggested--scruff of the neck, hand to the throat, on their back, etc were suggested by our trainer when our girl was around 6 months and having similar issues. Doing things like this actually made her worse and substantially more reactive. We stopped even though the trainer thought we should keep doing it. Instead, we tried treats and redirection as mentioned by Melissa DT. Our girl also drug a light leash around in the house in case we needed to move her. These methods were much more effective and better for our girl's individual needs. She is not perfect, but has made huge strides and I am sure with time and maturity will continue to improve. 

I have also learned the hard way that showing ANY frustration or anger (by that I mean just your energy, nothing physical) makes things worse. They are incredibly sensitive. Never had a dog so complicated and lovely at the same time .


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Fl - I think most missed my point - thought this was about a pup - 4 me that is under 4mo old - past that point can not man handle a V - yes I use a pinch collar - I would rather have 2 or 3 quick corrections than mo's of a pup pulling on lead - resource protection - hand feed the first few weeks - first 6mo - only give a command when the pup is looking at ME - IE; pups name and eye contact - 1 post 2 give a treat to distract from bad behavior ! that is rewarding it - yes I'm old school - fix the problem then and there IE: take the pup out of it's comfort zone at once - you do it every time - correct a problem once and think it cute the next time - good luck - PIKE is my 4Th V - all were different - I remain the same - at the end of the day - everything in PIKE's life is MINE - makes him HAPPY & me Very HAPPY !


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## JohnO (Oct 25, 2013)

Any time your dog does something you don't want it to do, grab the dog by it's collar showing no fear of being bit, gently lift its front paws off the ground and briskly walk it to its time out spot. The time out spot should be somewhere the dog doesn't particularly enjoy being. Mine is a basement bathroom which is small. Leave the dog there until it begins to cry. This may be ten minutes or forty five. You want to quit literally break its spirit..... just a little bit. When you let the dog out don't praise it in any way. Just open the door to its time out area and yell "out"!. Then return to life as normal. Do this every time it misbehaves and react quickly. Remember....it's a dog. It will eventually learn your in charge and can kick some ass when you have to. This being said, any dog in the world worth having will growl if you try and take its food away. In my house, anything edible that hits the floor is Odi's. I would defend a piece of chicken also if I were him.


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## Kafka (Jul 24, 2013)

Time-outs can be very effective, although I think half a minute does the trick. I think that after ten minutes or longer the dog doesn't remember or link it anymore to what he did wrong and is just upset. 
I think the key to time out is just that, to show that his behavior is undesirable.
Another suggestion is when opening the door after ten seconds or so, to ask for a sit. The reward will then be being let out of the bathroom. If doesnt listen, close the door and try again after a few seconds. Your dog will learn quickly.


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