# Resource Guarding w/ Other Dogs



## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

So I'm sure this has been addressed somewhere, but I'm not having much luck with the archives. Feel free to link me to past threads!

Dexter has occasionally guarded sticks from other dogs. He used to love playing "keep away" and having them chase him for his stick, toy, etc. Every once in a while, his behavior changes though and he tries to avoid other dogs when he has a stick. He'll turn his head repeatedly if another dog approaches him and he's chewing on it. He had some resource guarding with us as a young pup and took the same approach. We found a trainer because it concerned us and she basically told us it was because he didn't respect us. Fast forward a couple of weeks and with some more obedience training, he's never guarded from us again.

His love of sticks only caused one altercation up until the past month or so. Around 8 months, he snapped at a boxer friend who was chasing him for his stick. The boxer snapped back and that was that. Neither dog was hurt and they went on playing. Dex didn't do it again until a month or so ago. This time he went after a fellow V pup who was playing with a toy. Dex has seen this toy a million times and never cared for it. I saw him start to get possessive over the toy and stepped in. When I got the toy from Dex, he turned around and snapped at the pup. Again, no broken skin or anything, just a scared pup.

I was hoping it was an isolated incident. But the other day he snapped at not one, but two dane pups. The first pup was trying to hump him a bit as it went for his stick, so I figured he had it coming. But then he went over to the other pup (a friend of his) and snapped at him quite badly after his toy. He didn't hurt either dog, but made them yelp and run away. I'm not sure if he even touches them, but he goes after them quite intensely (makes lots of noise) and definitely scares them into yelping at least. 

Each time after this has happened, I pull him aside, correct him with a firm "eh eh" and don't let him rejoin in the fun. I think it's also important that most of the times this has happened, it's after I've seen him stiffen up and intervened. It's usually when I'm trying to take the object away that he actually snaps at the other dog. (Although this was not the case with the dane pups.) 

He's now snapped at our new pup, twice. The first time was over a bully stick (fair enough, though they each had one) and over a filled Kong he dragged out of his crate. He was actually watching the pup lick the Kong and didn't snap at her until I reached over to pull her away from the Kong to let him have it.

So I guess my questions are:

How would you correct your dog in this situation? I don't have a problem with him correcting a pup that gets out of line, but he seems to OVERreact. I'm worried he'll start a fight if he does this to the wrong dog. And by only doing it to pups, I don't want him to think he can get what he wants from them by acting this way. Is this an adolescent thing he will likely grow out of? Or the start of a really bad habit? :-\

Am I making the problem worse by interfering? (It seems that way.) I know especially with our pup, I should let them work most things out. He hasn't hurt her at all, just sends her yelping across the room. I've seen many other adult dogs correct pups with a growl or a brief snap, but he really goes after her (and these other dogs). Do you interfere when there's yelping involved or only if he's breaking skin, etc.?

I think part of what's really confusing me is whether he's trying to be dominant or if he's insecure. His guarding with us was definitely a respect thing, but his body posture just makes him look insecure. Although he took the same tactics with us - crouching low, stiffening up, turning head from side to side to avoid us, hackles up, etc.

Needless to say, if it keeps becoming an issue we'll take him back to the trainer. And I understand it's normal for him to try and tell his new sister where her place is in the pack. (Though I suspect she'll end up being the boss!). But he's always been very submissive to other dogs so I'm having trouble reading the situation!


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

I should try and describe how he snaps a bit more too, I think. To me, it looks like one half of a dog fight. He'll chase them down, make a lot of noise and snap at them. (Never breaking skin or visibly injuring them though. I'm not sure if he actually even makes contact with the other dog.) It's not the quick growl/snap I'll see if a pup is trying to hump an older dog or something, etc. 

I know Ian Dunbar talks about how sometimes adolescent dogs go through this and that's often the time people stop socializing their dogs. I want to continue socializing him of course (he's been extremely well socialized up to this point and great with other dogs) but I want to make sure I know how to correct him so he gets over this!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I look at it as is the dog justified in telling the other dog off, or not. If Dex has a toy or stick he does not want to give up to another dog, a growl or snap is fine. He is just letting them know its his.
Think of it as the object being yours. Wouldn't you decided if you shared or not. And you wouldn't like it, if someone just walked up and grabbed it.
Puppies play these games all the time, but as a dogs starts to mature, they decided with who and when to play the game.
Most dogs will give a very young puppy a pass until they are about 3 months old, after that they will correct them.
If the dogs can work it out on their own, without either one getting hurt, its best to let them.
The time you have to step in, is if a dog overcorrects another dog, or just lashes out. I would step in with the puppy if Dex will not cut her a break, no dog likes to be bulled all the time.
Instead of going toward Dex, have you tried having him come to you.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

Thanks TexasRed. I always appreciate your advice! 

With the boxer, it was clearly that they just got way over excited and it escalated. This particular boxer is always amped up and is just a bit too much for Dexter. We usually try to avoid him for that reason, even though he's very friendly.

I wasn't really surprised when he went after the V pup or our pup either. I think it's how dramatic his reaction is that concerns me. I expect other dogs to snap at him to back off if he goes to take their ball, etc. And I get that he's old enough to tell off pups now. But he really lunges and makes a lot of noise. To me, it seems like he's starting a fight instead of just giving a correction. Is this normal?

It was the danes that really threw me. Well, not so much the first one. He was your typical obnoxious puppy and added to Dex having a stick... not a total surprise. But he went after the other dane pup shortly after - this time the dane pup had a toy and Dex wanted it from him.

Writing this out, I guess I'm fine with him being possessive over things with other dogs. But if he IS overcorrecting or lashing out, how would you handle it? I wonder how dogs learn to correct without overcorrecting? Will he learn that it just takes a growl to make a pup back off and he doesn't always have to go after it and make it yelp? He seems to go from 0-60 over it. I'd like him just to try out a 30 first  Is that just part of maturing?

I also am realizing that I have been avoiding strange dogs for a while now. We're strategic about our park times so we don't often run into dogs we don't know, etc. But maybe he does need a bit more socializing with strange dogs now and then.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

And I will try having him come to me, but I don't think he will. He's so focused on avoiding the other dogs that I think he's oblivious to everything else. That may be a good one to work on in the house though, since he's not really threatened by the pup and there's not as many distractions!


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Considering his past issues resource guarding with you, it almost seems as if he is lashing out at the other dogs instead of you, like he blames them for the object being taken away. That doesn't quite make sense either though, since you've been taking it away from another dog. Maybe he is helping you?? Whatever his reasoning, that seems to be a trigger for Dex, so change up how you go about that. You could remove him or leash him first, give him a different toy, etc. How was his behavior before you took away the bully stick? Did he want it?

I've never had a male, but from the little I've gathered it seems normal for male adolescents to use excessive force in their corrections and I agree that his behavior does seem excessive. It could be that time and confidence takes care of it.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

missing the POINT - a well bred V or other sport dog - once it has it in it's mouth - they have only 1 !!! job - bring it back to it's master - pup or adult they will correct - without a pup or adult dog in the picture - they must respect my family and friends - no correction - and bring it 2 me - PIKE gets it right - bumper or toy - the first 1 with their hand out gets it !!!!! honor in the field is hard 2 teach - IE - once another pup has it in it's mouth the game is OVER !!!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

How old is Dexter? I was thinking he was old enough to have recall down, although I know it can be a problem with bird dogs. Its your number one tool to use to get him out of trouble.
Dogs that make a lot of noise, or pen another dog for a correction, aren't really a problem. Its the ones that attack and mean to do harm that are.

I would suggest that you go back to a trainer for more obedience. Most of the time you can see when there is going to be a problem with another dog before it starts. 
Having him recall under any situation, and Leave it, would be high on my list of things to teach him. I would also work on Give.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

einspänner said:


> Considering his past issues resource guarding with you, it almost seems as if he is lashing out at the other dogs instead of you, like he blames them for the object being taken away.
> 
> I've never had a male, but from the little I've gathered it seems normal for male adolescents to use excessive force in their corrections and I agree that his behavior does seem excessive. It could be that time and confidence takes care of it.


That is very much how I interpreted the scenario with the boxer and the V pup. Both times I stepped in to take the object away when I saw him get uncomfortable and once I had it, he went after the dog who wanted it originally. I think he's mad about it being taken away, but knows he can't go after me and the pup is an easier target. When I took the items away, I didn't give them back to either dog.

So when I saw him get stiff around the dane pup (and saw the pup go in for a hump), I didn't interfere, but he still got mad. The pup deserved a correction anyways in my opinion, but I felt he was too harsh. He went after the other pup and it's toy shortly after, which I would consider to be lashing out. I think the new pup in the house and the encounter with the dane's brother probably just had him on edge too much.

I think it's probably telling that he was watching our pup lick his Kong without problem, but when I went in to remove her (not the Kong) he might have mistakenly thought I was reaching for the Kong and taken it out on her. 

I'm not sure what happened with the bully stick, to be honest. They were both chewing on their own sticks and somehow she went for his or he went for hers. That's his highest value item so I knew something could happen, but up until that point, he'd never snapped at her over food, etc. 

So I will try letting them work it out! The first couple times the pups yelped so much I was really afraid he'd hurt them. Now I'm feeling more confident that it's just a show. But like you said, I do feel like his reaction is excessive and he's overcorrecting. I'd like to help him learn how to make more appropriate corrections! I'm hoping it's a maturity thing, but I don't want to ignore it if it's likely to get worse.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

TexasRed said:


> How old is Dexter? I was thinking he was old enough to have recall down, although I know it can be a problem with bird dogs. Its your number one tool to use to get him out of trouble.
> 
> I would suggest that you go back to a trainer for more obedience. Most of the time you can see when there is going to be a problem with another dog before it starts.
> 
> Having him recall under any situation, and Leave it, would be high on my list of things to teach him. I would also work on Give.


He's not quite a year and a half. 

His recall is great with the e-collar. BUT he does need reminder buzzes/nicks fairly often. He isn't one of those "I nicked him once the first month and never had to again" dogs. I guess I'm hesitant to use the collar to reinforce the command in that situation because I feel like if I have to nick him, it'll escalate him more and make him more likely to lash out at the other dog. Should I get over that?

He's pretty great about "leave it" but often he picks up a stick when he's out running and brings it back. It's the "release/give" we have a real problem with. We've never had that one down well and we have trouble finding anything that's more high value to him then what he's just discovered. You're right, we need to put more work into that one.

Yes, we'll probably end up at the trainer. I can tell when these situations are going to happen before they do - I guess I'm just at a loss as to how to diffuse them or correct him.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I would start running him away from other dogs, and make his recall set in stone. I would not beep him for noncompliance, he would get a nick every time. 
As far as trading on give. I don't do that with older dogs. I pull up on a flank if they do not release right away. Its not a yank and should not hurt, just catches them off guard.
Once they release, you can praise him, and then hand it back to them. Let him go play, recall and the have him give it to you again. You add other dogs to the mix once he has it down.

Rem
You are right. Cash would go after a dog that interfered with a retrieve. He was swimming to me with a duck in his mouth, when a lab started swimming toward him. The labs owner got this look and said "Bo, Cash will have you for dinner." As the lab got closer Cash gave him a growl, and the lab decided it wasn't a good idea.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

Thanks TexasRed. That gives me a good place to start! I just learned the flank trick a couple weeks ago and it never crossed my mind to use it with "release." I'll definitely give that a try. And will crack down on his recall.

And don't worry - if it continues to be an issue, we'll go back to the trainer. She's wonderful and I know we'll want her input as the dynamics in the house change with two dogs. It just all started pretty suddenly and we've had a lot going on lately. Dex has had to deal with a move, a new sis, semi-new routine, etc. in a short time frame and I know he's stressed. I'm not sure if this will be a new behavior pattern for him or not once things have settled down - but at the same time, it was clear it wasn't an isolated incident anymore so I don't want to ignore it either.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

A couple updates/developments...

1) Dexter has decided he is NOT a fan of puppies anymore. I guess he's just the grumpy old man now! Interestingly enough, it's Dane puppies he usually dislikes. I guess probably because they are annoying... and as big as he is. Which is too bad because he used to have a blast playing with them (still loves adult Danes). 

2) He's gotten better at appropriately correcting Birch (our other dog). Although that might be because she is very sensitive to him and makes sure to always give him his space/let him be the boss. If she's even playing with a toy and drops it near him on accident, she'll walk away and leave the toy in case he wants to take it from her. 

3) Not much progress with guarding the sticks, though. I'm not having ANY luck with "drop it" despite trying a bunch of different things. He's good with "leave it" but I can't always catch him in time. I keep trying to teach him "take it" so we can practice "drop it" but that hasn't been going very well either! (Would love some tips on teaching "take it" - as our weim also won't take/hold *anything*).

4) Recall is STILL a challenge with him. He comes when called... if he gets a nick from his e-collar. Usually one nick every outing (although he doesn't seem collar wise at all) and he will usually listen after that. If he has a stick and is fixating on the other dogs/stick, his recall doesn't work. And I don't want to nick him, as I'm sure that would set him off. He's now two years old and we practice recall *every day*. So frustrating. At least Birch's is almost perfect... I guess karma does exist!

I thought maybe his guarding/correcting other dogs was getting better there for a while. (Granted, we try to avoid situations with sticks and/or lots of other dogs.) He had a setter grab the end of his stick a couple weeks ago and they were locked in a pretty intense tug... and he LET GO! Boy, did he get a lot of praise for that one. 

But lately he's been a real jerk (to put it mildly) to a puppy at our park. Upon first meeting her, he went stiff, hovering over her and then went after her (I guess you could call it an attack, although he didn't physically injure her at all). Nothing to warrant it, other than being a puppy and getting in his face a little. The following day, the puppy approached the water bowl while he was there and again, he went stiff and hovered over her, curling his lip and baring his teeth, hackles up (no growl). I tried calling him in a happy voice (he seems nervous when he does these things, like he's unsure if the dog is a threat), but he still went after her again. Note that he's never guarded the water bowl before (that's the one thing Birch pushes him out of CONSTANTLY). Neither of those situations surprised me as the pup probably warranted a correction, just not the level of his reaction (not a correction, definitely more of a small attack). I've never seen him bare his teeth and pull back his lips like that. Also concerns me that he's no longer growling about it. 

And then to top it off, we ran into the puppy AGAIN a couple of days ago (long story, the owner loves our dogs and I think she actually tries to run into us...). Dexter got a piece of bark off a tree to run around with. I knew he'd guard that from the pup, so I tried to distract the puppy, and Dexter came over and was literally chasing the puppy/teasing it with the bark, but being aggressive *at the same time*. I've seen him play keep away before like that, but this time he was snarling, lips curled back, teeth bared while relentlessly following the puppy around and trying to pick a fight. Usually he tries to avoid other dogs at all costs when he has a stick, so that was very new and out of character for him. I told him I had a ball and that luckily worked and he dropped the bark and came to me. (Luckily tennis balls almost always trump sticks to him.)

Not sure what type of advice I'm looking for... just needed to vent. I'm so frustrated with him. I get that he's older now and doesn't have the patience for puppies, but I've never seen him this aggressive. Interestingly, most of his guarding has been with pups, so I think he just knows who he can pick on. Are some dogs just so concerned with being dominant that they are aggressive about it? I think he let go with the setter because it was a bigger dog and he probably realized he was picking on the wrong dog. How much guarding between dogs is acceptable (I understand him just not wanting to share with another dog)? Birch is also so willing to back off, that I'm sure it he realizes he gets results by being nasty.

He's also been having a hard time with rashes/allergies so I know he doesn't feel well. He had started steriods before the last encounter with the pup (but not for the first couple). He's been perfectly nice to us and Birch though. He's also still been going to daycare with tons of other dogs and doing just fine.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

(Also, planning on scheduling a session with our trainer )


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

I didn't have a chance to read your whole post, but regarding teaching take it, I've had good success using a West method approach to force fetch as in this video. Scout has always liked carrying things, but that didn't always translate to her carrying the things I wanted her to, like the newspaper. 

Carol Ptak shows it better than I can write it, but some things I like about it are that you physically show the dog what you expect. You open its mouth, you put the object in, and you take it out. Notice how short the training sessions are, how she remains unemotional, and how responsive she is to the dog. As soon as the dog complies she releases the tension on the leash, praises the dog, and rewards the dog by removing the object. Scout resisted a lot more than that first griffon, so initially we'd get one rep in and call it a session. I was concerned about using a pinch collar because she is very sensitive, but it didn't bother her at all. If you don't like the idea of the collar, you could probably hook the leash up to a harness and step on that. She very rarely messes up retrieves now, but if she does I'll hold a bumper in her mouth while gently stroking her head or quietly praising her to keep her focused, followed by exuberant praise after I say give. 

Also if you already have a command that could encompass what you mean by take it, use that. I use fetch for when I want her to take something from my hand, when's she playing fetch, or for retrieving a shot bird. Simplify the language as much a possible.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

Thanks, eins. I will watch the video! They definitely need baby steps with "take it." Dexter loves to have stuff in his mouth, but "take it" is still hard for him. He will either take something and not give it back (usually the case) or, if he figures out (which he usually does) that it's a training session, he won't take it in the first place. Like, no mom, just go ahead and skip to the treat. 

Birch on the other hand, won't take *anything.* She also doesn't retrieve at all. Half the time I give her food she even spits that out with a look like I am trying to poison her, haha! Luckily because she doesn't like to pick up/carry things around it's not as a big deal that she learn "drop it" - but of course the one time she has something dangerous will probably be the time she doesn't want to give it up!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I found that force fetch helped Cash be more willing to work with me. 
He is also one hard headed dog. Loves to hunt, but dislikes any formal training away from birds. He was like the kid that never wants to go to practice, but is the first one there ready to play on game day.
I worked with him on holding the bumper until told to release. Had him to the point where he would reach for it if the bumper was in my hand, and walk at heel. But felt I needed a trainer to finish it for me.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

TexasRed said:


> But felt I needed a trainer to finish it for me.


I think I'm coming to that conclusion for Dexter too  If nothing else, I could use a bit of a break!


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

If the puppy owner likes you so much, maybe she'd be willing to help with the training. I'd get Dex, the puppy, and your trainer together at the park during quieter hours. Your trainer may handle it differently, but I might try keeping Dex on a check cord and whenever he starts to focus on the puppy lightly tug and release on the cord, like jigging a fishing line, until he turns his focus away. I've heard that described as annoying or nagging the dog into compliance, haha.  As soon as he turns give tons of praise and call him back to you for a treat or a tennis ball, something high value to him. Use the lead to reel him in if you have to. I don't use an e-collar so I'm not familiar with the best way to integrate that, but in lieu of the tugging, you could try a vibration type mode or continuous or something at a low level.

Another idea would be to go on a short on-leash walk together outside the park, again giving Dexter lots of praise for showing good behaviors. 

I'm sure you'll figure it out!


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

einspänner said:


> If the puppy owner likes you so much, maybe she'd be willing to help with the training.
> 
> Another idea would be to go on a short on-leash walk together outside the park, again giving Dexter lots of praise for showing good behaviors.


I never thought of that! I'm sure she'd be up for it. We met her a couple weeks ago when Birch came running up to her and she immediately started crying her eyes out. My husband was all worried that maybe Birch had hurt her since she really barrels at you (she's great at taking out knees if you're not careful) but she hardly ever gets that enthusiastic about strangers. Her nickname is "Birch Bomb" or "Bbomb" because she dive bombs us all the time. (Small price to pay for great recall, haha!) It turned out she had just lost her Weim a couple weeks before. Her two current pups were rescues that she'd gotten just a few days before since she couldn't stand not having a dog in the house. Long story short, she now loves both our dogs and I think coordinates her park times to run into us. Which would be fine, as she's a very nice lady and so are her pups, but Dexter obviously feels differently, ha! The other day she had her dogs leashed to leave, but when we pulled in, she took them back in  Ironically she really loves Dex, since he's such a lover (to her anyways if not her pup). 

We do use the e-collar to redirect his attention, which works in other situations but not if he's about to go after another dog. I've tried nicking him before to call him away from another dog, but unless it's Birch, that just triggers his snap. Maybe I'll try just the "beep" function and see what that does. I think a check cord would be a better option, but that would only work outside of the park. I think the owner would be totally up for an on leash walk together. Although I'm pretty sure Dexter would be perfectly fine in that scenario, but maybe it would help him build a bond with the pup.

It's hard because he's perfectly fine with the puppy most of the time. I know he guards sticks, so that's always guaranteed to set him off with other dogs. But he'll be running around near the puppy all morning with no problem (some days there is never a problem) and then others he just gets in a mood and starts being a jerk and goes after her repeatedly. Sometimes I can tell what's going to trigger him, but other times I can't figure it out. And if he gets to the point where I can tell he's going to snap, it's too late anyways and my attempts at redirection don't work. Lately I've just been bringing a ball to the park as that's his favorite and he hardly even notices other dogs if he has a ball to focus on. I've definitely got to start trying to implement a tennis ball as his reward for good behavior, as it motivates him much more than treats. And they are much easier to keep in my pocket than a bird, haha!

He doesn't have to love the puppy, but if he had recall mastered, or drop it, or even leave it (which is one of his better commands - but still not perfect) I don't think it would be much of an issue.


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## chilithevizsla (Apr 2, 2014)

IMO he's going after the dogs because he thinks they're the cause of the item being taken away, not because they actually want the item you're trying to take away.

I think you need to work on him having sticks while other dogs are hovering around him but both controlled so they can't actually get to him. I don't think you will stop the guarding at this point but you'll definitely be able to train him to be more comfortable around other dogs while he has one, meaning less attacks. I would say these "attacks" are down to insecurity.

When working make sure you're always under threshold though, do not use the method einspanner uses because the yanking at the lead can cause more negative reinforcement and relies on putting the dog over threshold so is a lot less responsive to anyone and over threshold dogs are stressed dogs.

http://empoweredanimals.com/ This is a GREAT website and I'd use this method.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

chilithevizsla said:


> IMO he's going after the dogs because he thinks they're the cause of the item being taken away, not because they actually want the item you're trying to take away.


In this case, both. He goes after a dog if he thinks they want his item or if he thinks they are going to cause me to take an item away from him (I've learned he's more likely to snap if I do interfere for that reason). And the other dogs really DO want to take his stick away, so it wouldn't teach him anything but reinforce the idea that dogs approaching him while he has a stick = no more stick. He just doesn't know how to correct them appropriately (which might be partially due to his breeder sending them home at 7 weeks). 



chilithevizsla said:


> I think you need to work on him having sticks while other dogs are hovering around him but both controlled so they can't actually get to him. I don't think you will stop the guarding at this point but you'll definitely be able to train him to be more comfortable around other dogs while he has one, meaning less attacks. I would say these "attacks" are down to insecurity.


He goes from 0 to 60 with a stick. There would be no safe way for me to work with him and other dogs with a stick in the scenario. At no point when he has a stick is he "under threshold". We have worked with him and our other dog, but it doesn't transfer to strange dogs. And I think that was largely only successful because our other dog has learned to back off and not challenge him.



chilithevizsla said:


> When working make sure you're always under threshold though, do not use the method einspanner uses because the yanking at the lead can cause more negative reinforcement and relies on putting the dog over threshold so is a lot less responsive to anyone and over threshold dogs are stressed dogs.


Correcting him with a check cord would not phase him in the least. I do think that using the nick on the e-collar does have the effect you are talking about, hence why we do not use that in these scenarios.


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## chilithevizsla (Apr 2, 2014)

I'm confused, while he's got a stick he's never under threshold or when there's a dog near he's not?

I think this has stemmed from you originally removing the item when the first dog tried to take it and it's escalated quickly.I think the plan of action should be work on give/leave/drop with him and a stick on his own, then work on that with dogs are "near" (depending on his threshold as to how near they should be) and then slowly progress.

If he's over threshold when there's a stick around then CC him to that. Get a stick and hold it but play with the ball instead, or treat, whichever he'll respond to, at the end of the session give him the stick for a little while. after a few sessions you could continue with the above.

Insecurity is quite a hard thing to train out but it's definitely worth a shot.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

chilithevizsla said:


> I think this has stemmed from you originally removing the item when the first dog tried to take it and it's escalated quickly.I think the plan of action should be work on give/leave/drop with him and a stick on his own, then work on that with dogs are "near" (depending on his threshold as to how near they should be) and then slowly progress.


That is part of the problem. We've worked with him on drop it/release his entire life and never had much luck with it. He's not good about it even with low value items, much less sticks. I think we will probably need a trainer's help for that.


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## chilithevizsla (Apr 2, 2014)

dextersmom said:


> chilithevizsla said:
> 
> 
> > I think this has stemmed from you originally removing the item when the first dog tried to take it and it's escalated quickly.I think the plan of action should be work on give/leave/drop with him and a stick on his own, then work on that with dogs are "near" (depending on his threshold as to how near they should be) and then slowly progress.
> ...


Can't argue with going to a trainer as long as they're using positive reinforcement, they'll be able to access the situation and cues way better than someone over the internet.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

chilithevizsla said:


> Can't argue with going to a trainer as long as they're using positive reinforcement, they'll be able to access the situation and cues way better than someone over the internet.


I agree with half your statement  Just for the record, personally I don't believe in using ONLY positive training methods. Although I am a big Ian Dunbar fan and try to use his methods as much as possible. But I won't get into that debate here


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## chilithevizsla (Apr 2, 2014)

dextersmom said:


> chilithevizsla said:
> 
> 
> > Can't argue with going to a trainer as long as they're using positive reinforcement, they'll be able to access the situation and cues way better than someone over the internet.
> ...


And I don't agree with you but that's fine, we're human and allowed different opinions.
Can I ask why you don't believe positive reinforcement is enough? Just for curiosity sake, not trying to start an argument


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

chilithevizsla said:


> Can I ask why you don't believe positive reinforcement is enough? Just for curiosity sake, not trying to start an argument


Sure, but let's start another thread for that debate


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

chilithevizsla said:


> When working make sure you're always under threshold though, do not use the method einspanner uses because the *yanking* at the lead can cause more negative reinforcement and relies on putting the dog over threshold so is a lot less responsive to anyone and over threshold dogs are stressed dogs.


Also not looking for a debate, but just wanted to emphasize that I do NOT advocate yanking on the lead. This method is more akin to a child tugging on their mother's shirt for attention or tapping someone on the arm and should never be done forcefully or in anger. 

Imagine there is a mosquito buzzing by your ear while you are watching your favorite sport. You ignore it for the first few times while engrossed in the game. The fourth time it buzzes it by, you swat at it and as soon as you do an Elvis impersonator jumps up and starts serenading you while the crowd cheers your name and hands you cookies. You don't negatively associate the mosquito with your favorite game, you positively associate swatting it with all these wonderful things that happened and next time a mosquito buzzes by you swat at it sooner in hopes of repeating this wondrous event.  While greatly exaggerated, that's how I envision my method going. 

It may vary with other dogs, but my girl is particularly sensitive to voice so if I sigh out of frustration or if I were to talk harshly to her she would go over threshold. Gentle physical cues like pressure on/ pressure off leash training don't faze her in the least and in fact they communicate my intentions to her more clearly causing her less stress. In some situations another way of getting their attention could work like making strange sounds, but in other cases the object of their fixation is so high value that nothing gets through. Well that's my view on it, but you are certainly welcome to disagree. It's a forum after all. 

It seems like positive only training is a passion of yours. Would you be interested in starting a thread going over the basics and defining some your terms for those not familiar with them? People could ask any questions they have.


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