# Any accurate/reliable (evidence based) resource on the history of the Vizsla?



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

So far I've seen oft-repeated claims (that seem like fanciful mythologies) regarding the history of the breed. Claims a "Vizsla" (as we know the modern breed) rode into Carpathian Basin in the 10th Century with Arpad. Claims that a 14th Century manuscript documents a "Vizsla" (despite bearing little or no similarity to our breed). Claims that every instance the word "Vizsa" is used in an ancient correspondence (which seems like a generic term in Hungarian) that it is evidence of the antiquity of the breed, when in all likelihood it means something like "dog."

What is the real history? Any really good evidence for how what we recognize as the modern Vizsla was developed, and when? What breeds were (*gasp!*) crossed into the mix?

What are the earliest images that show "Vizslas" that look like the modern breed standard? Have a link or ability to post them and an approximate date?

What do you think?

Bill (who is worried about being branded a heretic :-*)


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/06/i-am-fascinated-by-vizsla-history.html

I like heretics Bill.

Like most things in Central Europe (including the area my mother grew up in, Breslau, Germany, now part of Poland) record keeping during one invasion of cultures through the area after another makes it tough to determine the modern Vizsla from it's ancestors.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2013/08/hungary-royality-in-hills-of-san.html

You can start with the articles on my blog and work from there. 

Have fun and welcome to the discussion.

RBD


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Bill,

A very old man was walking along a trail I use often. He was pushing a bicycle with a basket of belongings and had a mutt of some type on a rope that was tagging along willingly.

He stopped me by asking me, "VIZSLA?" When I said they were, we talked about my two Hungarian Pointers and their history for almost an hour. 

He was from Transylvania and he went on and on about the country and how the different factions in the area disliked each other but how everyone loved the golden hunting dog and claimed it as their own. 

He explained the term Vizsla to me as best he could in his broken English.

Vizsla means "one who seeks or searches" is the best he could explain. It wasn't a perfect translation from Hungarian to English but it was as good as he could do.

Happy trails,
RBD


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

RBD's story brought to mind another little anecdote shared by longterm member Ozkar. As I recall, he was out walking with his two Vizslas and German shorthair when he was stopped by a Hungarian man who pointed at his dogs and said Vizslas. Then he pointed at the GSP and said German vizsla. I always liked that for some reason—maybe because I'm always defaulting to calling my dog a pointer—but it does support that the term is more a generic one. 

As for the history, if you're not familiar with Craig Koshyk's Pointing Dog Blog, it's a good place to start. http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/2012/11/breed-of-week-vizsla_27.html


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> Bill,
> 
> A very old man was walking along a trail I use often. He was pushing a bicycle with a basket of belongings and had a mutt of some type on a rope that was tagging along willingly.
> 
> ...


Yes, I've had Hungarians say just about the same thing, Vizsla translates roughly to "seeker." I've also heard the word translates to "pointer" in Turkish. 

What I have not seen is any sort of evidence that the breed (as we know it now) has been around for hundreds, much less a thousand years. No paintings, no really old (dated) photographs, nothing tangible. Yet claims are commonly made of a 1000 year old breed.

I've enjoyed reading your blog for quite awhile. Still not seeing anything to counter the idea that the Vizsla (as we know it) was a pretty modern creation, like GSPs and Weimaraners.

Bill


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

einspänner said:


> RBD's story brought to mind another little anecdote shared by longterm member Ozkar. As I recall, he was out walking with his two Vizslas and German shorthair when he was stopped by a Hungarian man who pointed at his dogs and said Vizslas. Then he pointed at the GSP and said German vizsla. I always liked that for some reason—maybe because I'm always defaulting to calling my dog a pointer—but it does support that the term is more a generic one.
> 
> As for the history, if you're not familiar with Craig Koshyk's Pointing Dog Blog, it's a good place to start. http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/2012/11/breed-of-week-vizsla_27.html


Craig Koshyk seems very skeptical of the 1000 old breed mythology. He mentions the rise of dogs referred to as "Vizslas" between the 1850s and 1880s. But it is not clear if the term just meant "pointer" generically, as opposed to referring to a dog that met the breed standard of the modern Vizsla. He speculates the dogs shown in the 1880s may have been cross-breeds with German Shorthaired Pointers and English Pointers (not unlikely given the popularity of those dogs at the time). 

By 1900 he says there was worry "these dogs" of unknown provenance would die out. It is claimed there was a search for "pure" dogs (what are those?) and then outcrossings with other breeds including possibly Transylvanian hounds, German Shorthairs, English Pointers and Irish Setters.

The breed never-the-less declined, according to Koshyk. By 1914 was nearly extinct. What is less clear is if there was even a stable Vizsla "breed" as we know it. In 1916 efforts start to "save" the Vizsla. In 1920 Hungary breaks up (post-WWI). 

Only in 1920 is a stud book opened. Only in 1928 is there a breed standard. Only in 1936 was the stud-book closed (which only then ended crossbreeding moving forward).

Not a very compelling case for the 1000 year old mythologies we see repeated about Vizslas almost everywhere. Yes?

Bill


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://www.buschvizslas.com/history.htm

Bill,
The GSP was first known as a "******* Hound" in the late 1800's and was a designer dog for the new working-class German. It was a designed all purpose dog.

The Vizsla and Kopo were royal hunting dogs. Royal hunting dogs go back to Egypt and Turkey well before the the middle-ages. The normal person could not hunt. Royalty would MAKE dog breeders give them the very best hunting dogs. It was a pride thing to have the best dogs, so who could doubt that if the dog handler / breeder of royalty was to make a living ( and not lose his life), he would HAVE to produce a regal dog. Nothing could be better than a wonderful rust colored, short-haired hard-charging, athletic, medium-sized dog that could run all day with horses, not smell like a dog and live inside with his humans.

If I was a dog breeder in 1200 in the land of the Huns, and worked for the King or other nobility, I'd sure try and make a Vizsla!

RBD


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> http://www.buschvizslas.com/history.htm
> 
> Bill,
> The GSP was first known as a "b*stard Hound" in the late 1800's and was a designer dog for the new working-class German. It was a designed all purpose dog.
> ...


Where's the proof? I had a Weimaraner, they made the same (IMO highly dubious) claims some make for the V. 

If I were royalty, and I had a dog as beautiful as the one I own now, I'd (for sure) have his portrait painted by the best artist money could buy. But where are the paintings? The appear to be none. To me this just does not compute.

Bill


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

RBD,

The article you linked makes many claims, but where is the evidence?

The author, a Dr Osborn, claims "Primitive stone etchings, estimated 1,000 years old, show the Magyar huntsman with his Vizsla and falcons." Where are these stone etchings? Have you ever seen them???

The Vienna Chronicle shows dogs that don't look like Vizslas (unless one has a large imagination) running with people mounted on horseback. Not proof of a modern V.

Old correspondence does refer to "Vizslas" but the term seems a generic one meaning "pointer," not one specific to the breed we know in modern times.

Dr Osborn claims "the golden Vizsla was the favorite companion-hunting dog of the early barons and war lords and, with the evolution of the nobility and large landowners, the breed was preserved in its purity through the centuries." If that was true, would there be no proof? I've seen zero evidence this is true. 

Surely there would be some scrap of evidence of a dog that is a beautiful and distinctive as the modern Vizsla if it actually existed for centuries.

Bill


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Bill,
You are a very good debater this is true. The Hungarian Empire goes back to around the year 1000 with royalty. The Royalty of every European country had royal hunting dogs.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/07/transylvanian-hound-only-other.html

The hunting dog would have been a tool of the powerful and not a pet. The dogs lived with the games keeper for the most part. That was tradition. My guess there are many things about Central Europe that have no proof of existence. 

As one culture crushed the previous one on the Hungarian plains, the dominate hunting style and dogs would change. 

The Modern California Vizsla is much different than the pictures from the late 1800s and a far cry from a Hungarian Pointer you would come across along the Danube River. Much more refined. But this is the taste of the "modern age." Slim and trim. Is it "better?"

If you would take a California Vizsla and placed it in 1200 Budapest, it would have been culled as unworthy of the breed.

If this debate bothers other HVF members Bill and I can take it "off site.". I love discussing Central European history.

RBD


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> Bill,
> You are a very good debater this is true. The Hungarian Empire goes back to around the year 1000 with royalty. The Royalty of every European country had royal hunting dogs.
> 
> http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/07/transylvanian-hound-only-other.html
> ...


I don't doubt that the Hungarians had royalty, nor that their royalty had dogs. I have just seen no evidence that the dogs they had were similar to our modern Vizslas. I don't think one transported back to 1200 would have been culled for being unworthy of the "breed," because there seems no evidence such a "breed existed."

I would love to see photos of Vizslas/Vizsla-protypes from the late 1800s. That would be very (very) interesting indeed.

I love the breed. Love my (just turned one year old) "Chester" to death. He's won by heart and is part of the family.

I would like to get closer to "the real story" of our breeds origins, rather than just accepting oft-told mythological versions.

Bill


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

I think it's a great "debate", and like Bill, would love to find some conclusive evidence regarding the origins. Hopefully other members will chip in and who knows what we may uncover


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

The only photo I've seen that has some age (how much is hard to say, as it is unattributed from the source I found) that appears to show dogs that (sort of) resemble our Vs (particularly the one to the left) I will post below:


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

I will also attach a detail from the Vienna Illuminated Chronicle (called the Képes Krónika in Hungarian and the Chronica Hungarorum in Latin) that is claimed as "evidence" Vizslas existed in the 14th Century.

The full manuscript can be seen here (warning it is big and takes a while to load). There are other dogs illustrated, none looks like a "Vizsla," but I've isolated the one that is relevant to the claim

https://web.archive.org/web/20120304111134/http://konyv-e.hu/pdf/Chronica_Picta.pdf


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

Spy said:


> The only photo I've seen that has some age (how much is hard to say, as it is unattributed from the source I found) that appears to show dogs that (sort of) resemble our Vs (particularly the one to the left) I will post below:


Mr Roy Bebbington striking similar pose


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## mommaofalot (Apr 10, 2014)

Could the Vizsla be decedents of the pharaoh hound?


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Mommaofalot, I had heard of the ancient Phoaroh Hound being in the mix. One of the few dogs with a yellowish nose. Almost all hounds have black noses. 

The below is not "proof" but the development of the pointing gene in hunting and how the Vizsla would have been created for this specific style of hunting.

A European breed book from the late 1800's had hundreds of dog breeds that no longer exist and proof of their existance is no longer available except in these old books that are very hard to find.
______________________________________________

"One of the oldest and primitive instincts in humans has not yet disappeared, namely, the hunting instinct; lust for the hunt.

In civilized countries nobody has the necessary for its livelihood to go hunting. But many people still like to do it. One can think about it differently, but although it seems a contradiction, it is the hunting that keeps the wild alive in cultivated countries.

During the hunt, the man is still using the dog. There are a large number of hunting dog races with various branches of hunting customs on the whole world. For every branch of the hunt there are also specially bred hunting dogs available. By preventing equal prey's in widely separated countries they created many hunting dogs with a similar instance. Accordingly , the standing Hungarian hunting dog, the "Magyar Vizsla" was created.


In the large group of different kinds of hunting dogs, we can find the original hunting dog back.

The task of the drifting dogs is the game to drift the wild from the vegetation and chase it with loud barking. The drifting dog follows the wild tracks with the nose along the ground, he doesn't need to see the animal that he is tracking.

He needs to drift it to the hunter or he needs to hold it still untill the hunter comes to shoot the prey. Originally, they we're only packs. Because they have been crossing with a.o. sheepdogs they have made it more balanced and cooperative to handle. Thus arose the standing dogs.


Standing dogs, the collection of their tasks is enormous.
The following is required:

1. Methodical search.

2. Fixed standing; meaning that the dogs must stand and not chase the wild,
but they must stand quietly and point the hunter to the prey.

3. They must fetch the wild that has been shot out of the water and then they have to apport it to the hunter.

4. They have to follow wild that has been shot and apport it to the hunter.

These are not all assignments listed, but they are the main things which the standing dog should be able to do.

Standing dogs remain deadlocked for the wild, after searching the country with their heads against the wind to pick up a scent of the wild to catch. He drifts the wild after the orders of the hunter and works, unlike the drifting dogs, in close cooperation with the hunter.

There are few people left who hunt in order to survive. The desire to hunt, however, remained alive for all civilizations. There is therefore no country in the world where is not being hunted. The hunt has in our society contribute to his task the wild and the green space in which the wild lives to maintain. It is therefore an important part to focus on active nature. The modern hunter, is a wildlife expert and wildlife protector."

Copyright © 2008 "Gini Vadász" Kennel


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://www.bestinshowdaily.com/blog...tarted-stud-books-and-show-dogs-of-the-1800s/

*Stud books are a very "modern" invention.*

"Whether you think of purebred dogs as a relatively modern invention or as something as old as time itself depends on a couple of different things. For one, what do you mean by “purebred dogs”? There’s no question that distinct types of dogs were carefully bred for specific purposes thousands of years ago. It is an undisputed fact that these dogs were highly regarded and not allowed to inter-breed with other dogs — hence the term “pure-bred dogs.” But if you’re talking about what we today mean by specific breeds, thats a different matter. It was not until in Victorian England, with the beginning of the industrial age in the second half of the 1800s, that a sufficiently large number of people had enough free time on their hands to focus on the development and preservation of dogs that were not bred for utalitarian purposes but simply as pets. And what today’s breeders are doing is directly linked to what our forefathers in the dog fancy started more than 150 years ago.

"Two of the most important inventions were kennel clubs and stud books. The former may at first have been mostly a social phenomenon, a place where gentlemen (no ladies in those days, please) could get together and discuss their favorite dogs in a congenial environment. (It is no accident that one place where dog shows first became popular were in the pubs and ale houses of London.) These gentlemen were very concerned with the breeding of their dogs: handwritten pedigrees were starting to circulate, but it also became obvious that some sort of official records were necessary. It didn’t hurt that a stud book for Thoroughbred race horses already existed, going back all the way to 1791, so the format was already established. The first volume of the Kennel Club Stud Book was published in 1874. It listed pedigree details for over 4,000 dogs, as well as results of all dog shows and field trials in Great Britain since 1859 and the rules for running shows and trials. A Kennel Club Stud Book has been published every year since then and provides a permanent record of results for all championship dog shows, field trials and other dog activities, such as obedience and agility."


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Even if we accept that a "type" of dog was bred for long before the invention of stud books, where is the evidence that a "type" that closely resembled our modern Vizsla existed in the 19th Century, much less the 10th or 14th Centuries?

Photography was a well established technology by the 1850-60s, with extant photos going back to the 1820s. Paintings go back many centuries before that. Where are the images of dogs that resemble modern Vizslas?

The claim is they were owned by "royalty." Royalty could afford to document the the things they loved (family, estates, horses, dogs) in paintings (and regularly did so), and could also afford photographic sittings in the 19th Century. 

The lack of such imagery raises serious doubts in my mind that there was an established "type" that closely resembled the modern Vizsla long before the opening of the studbook in 1920. If there is evidence, even if it only went back to the 1880s (or 1900, or 1910) I'd love to see it.

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Just as humans evolve overtime, so do our dogs.
Just one example is the average height has increased in men over the last 50 years. Now take our beloved purebred dogs, and select breeding's to achieve a certain goal. It would take a far shorter amount of time to change a dog breed, than humans. Its no doubt the vizslas of the past would have some differences than todays red bird dog. The dog at the time would have fit its owners needs, just as they have changed overtime to fit ours.

If you can find family pictures of a few generations back, most will see the families traits have changed some over the years.


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## mommaofalot (Apr 10, 2014)

one of the dogs depicted in the painting was said to be a vizsla... but I have no idea. What I have found:

Several references to Vizsla dogs have been discovered from the ensuing centuries:
•The late Jeno Dus, a highly regarded expert on the Vizsla dog breed, claimed that a 12th century Danube Valley hamlet bore the name of Vizsla.
•Another pictorial reference appears in the Illustrated Vienna Chronicle (Becsi kepes kronika) of 1375. This work was created at the command of King Louis the Great of Hungary, whose daughter Katherine was to marry Louis de Valois, Prince of Orleans, of France. The lavishly illustrated book was an engagement gift intended to educate the French about the Hungarians. It included a chapter on falconry which featured a picture of the Vizsla.
•A letter written during the Turkish occupation of Hungary (1526 to 1686) also mentions Vizslas in association with falcons. It's likely that Vizslas were taken to Turkey at this time.
•Ferenc Rákóczi (1676 to 1735), who led the Hungarian uprising against the Hapsburgs at the start of the 18th century, is recorded as having been an owner of Vizslas.
•In 1825, the Vizsla was declared the Official Pointing Dog of Hungary. The Magyar Vizsla Stud Book was also established in that year to establish a breed standard, maintain pedigrees, and preserve the Vizsla's distinctive qualities. It was also at this time that non-nobles were permitted to own Vizslas.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

TexasRed said:


> Just as humans evolve overtime, so do our dogs.
> Just one example is the average height has increased in men over the last 50 years. Now take our beloved purebred dogs, and select breeding's to achieve a certain goal. It would take a far shorter amount of time to change a dog breed, than humans. Its no doubt the vizslas of the past would have some differences than todays red bird dog. The dog at the time would have fit its owners needs, just as they have changed overtime to fit ours.
> 
> If you can find family pictures of a few generations back, most will see the families traits have changed some over the years.


I accept that dog breeds can be manipulated to change quickly through "artificial selection," but this truth lends credence to the idea that the modern Vizsla was created though breeding choices by humans in recent times vs being a pure blood line preserved by nobility over centuries. 

With some human families we have images (paintings and photographs) going back through time. Thus far I've yet to see a single image of a dog that resembles a modern Vizsla that sets the existence of a type resembling our dogs in history.

Bill


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

mommaofalot said:


> one of the dogs depicted in the painting was said to be a vizsla... but I have no idea. What I have found:
> 
> Several references to Vizsla dogs have been discovered from the ensuing centuries:
> •The late Jeno Dus, a highly regarded expert on the Vizsla dog breed, claimed that a 12th century Danube Valley hamlet bore the name of Vizsla.
> ...


One can see that the dog in the Vienna Chronicle that I posted does not look like a Vizsla (but is the image I've seen offered as "proof" by some arguing for ancient status by some sources). Nor is the dog referred to a a Vizsla in the book. The illustration you posted shows a range of dogs, including spotted ones. If there was a pure bloodline these dogs would not fit, do you think? If they were all reddish-yellow it would be another matter.

That there are places called Vizsla or that dogs were referred to generically as "Vizslas" (the same way we might say "pointer" or "hunting dog") does not prove that the dogs referred to resembled the modern breed of the same name. In Turkish "Vizsla" means "pointer."

Where do we get evidence a stud book being opened in 1825? My understand is the year was 1920.

Bill


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

The Ultimate Hunting Dog Reference Book: A Comprehensive Guide to More than 60 Sporting Breeds Hardcover – November 1, 2006
by Vickie Lamb (Author)

Page 19 does a good short explaination.

Then there is this from Go Hungary
http://gotohungary.com/hungaricums


"Hungaricums are those noteworthy assets from Hungary, which characterise the Hungarians by their uniqueness, specialty and quality, and represent the peak performance of Hungary. 
OFFICIAL HUNGARICUMS

Falconry
Hungarian falconry is as old as the nation itself. Hungarians had very well-developed skills in hunting with falcons when they entered the Carpathian Basin in 895. Falconry is now officially part of the country's heritage.


Puli
The Puli is an ancient breed of Hungarian sheep dog. It is medium-sized and sturdy with a unique corded coat. The Puli is a lively, cheerful little dog who is very loyal to its family. Its innate intelligence makes it easy to train but also gives it a mind of its own. Pulis came to Hungary with the first Hungarian settlers, but at the time of World War II, the breed had almost died out. A special breeding program was initiated, which ensured the survival of these unique little Hungarians.

Hungarian Vizsla
The most commonly-seen breed in the country, the Hungarian Vizsla (pron. Viz-shla) is also known as the Hungarian Pointer or Magyar Pointer. It is an active, energetic working dog with enormous stamina. In earlier times it was used almost exclusively by nobility in falconry and hunting, as it is a fine retriever with an excellent nose, and a good hunter/pointer for small game and birds. In the past few years this breed has become a popular work, show and companion dog. It is reliable with children and quickly adapts to family life. The Hungarian Vizsla is a sleek, muscular, medium-sized, short-haired hunting dog with a beautiful rusty-gold colour. In Hungarian "Vizsla" means alert and responsive.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> The Ultimate Hunting Dog Reference Book: A Comprehensive Guide to More than 60 Sporting Breeds Hardcover – November 1, 2006
> by Vickie Lamb (Author)
> 
> Page 19 does a good short explaination.
> ...


But RBD, a website claiming ancient ancestry for the modern Vizsla is not proof of the "truthiness" of the assertion. Claims of ancient lineage can be found many places (and for many breeds), but where is the actual evidence to support such claims? 

Why are there no photos from the mid-19 Century? Why no definitive paintings to make the case?

Bill


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## mommaofalot (Apr 10, 2014)

If you google search dogs from 15th century or beyond there are photos that look like the pet could be a vizsla but it does not specifically say the bred. Especially dogs found in falcon hunting. Hope you find what you are looking for but sometimes in history there is no picture proof, but believing isn't always seeing.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Fun discussion. We may never get proof but the information is great.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

mommaofalot said:


> If you google search dogs from 15th century or beyond there are photos that look like the pet could be a vizsla but it does not specifically say the bred. Especially dogs found in falcon hunting. Hope you find what you are looking for but sometimes in history there is no picture proof, but believing isn't always seeing.


I'd be thrilled to see photographic evidence from even the late 19th Century into the early 20th Century. Even this sort of evidence is elusive.

What is the earliest known photograph of a Hungarian dog that resembles our modern Vizsla? Does anyone know???

Bill


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Looking at the Vienna Manuscript pictures has me wondering when tail docking became regular practice. I swear I'm not trying to throw any more controversy into this discussion!


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

From around 1433 -1435. Small red dog in toward the front of the group of mounted horses. Even looks to be on point. Found doing a search under falconry in Imperial Hungary. The birds on the left might be falcons.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> From around 1433 -1435. Small red dog in toward the front of the group of mounted horses. Even looks to be on point. Found doing a search under falconry in Imperial Hungary. The birds on the left might be falcons.


That is the best find I've ever seen (by a large margin). Well done!

I don't know that this establishes the existence of the modern Vizsla back in the 15th Century, but it is good evidence that there were "red" hunting dogs in Hungary ("yellow" dogs are also referred to in old documents) and it is exciting to think these dogs may well have contributed to making the distinctive modern Vizsla. The idea that native dogs of Hungary were part of the mix that created the Vizsla does seem like the most reasonable operating assumption.

I'm excited to see this illustration. Thank you for finding it, and sharing!

Bill (who's glad he started the thread)

ETA: Do you have anymore information on this painting? 

I'd feel a little better about color fidelity if the painting didn't include a "blue" horse


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## mommaofalot (Apr 10, 2014)

Portrait of a Cavalier with his Hunting Dogs, ca. 1570-1580 ... none of the pictures will say what kind of dog just says hunting dog


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> ETA: Do you have anymore information on this painting?
> 
> I'd feel a little better about color fidelity if the painting didn't include a "blue" horse


The Journey of the Magi
Artist: Sassetta (Stefano di Giovanni) (Italian, Siena or Cortona ca. 1400–1450 Siena)
Date: ca. 1433–35
Medium: Tempera and gold on wood
Dimensions: 8 1/2 x 11 3/4 in. (21.6 x 29.8 cm)
Classification: Paintings
Credit Line: Maitland F. Griggs Collection, Bequest of Maitland F. Griggs, 1943
Accession Number: 43.98.1


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

mommaofalot said:


> Portrait of a Cavalier with his Hunting Dogs, ca. 1570-1580 ... none of the pictures will say what kind of dog just says hunting dog


Any indication of where that painting was made? 

Bill


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

This scene, by the leading painter of fifteenth-century Siena, shows the three magi journeying to Bethlehem to worship Christ. It is a fragment from a small altarpiece showing the Adoration of the Magi. Originally, the star was shown above the tiled roof of the stable.* The fur-lined hat worn by the magus in pink was inspired by the visit to Siena in 1432 of King Sigismund of Hungary.* The picture may date about 1433–35.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> This scene, by the leading painter of fifteenth-century Siena, shows the three magi journeying to Bethlehem to worship Christ. It is a fragment from a small altarpiece showing the Adoration of the Magi. Originally, the star was shown above the tiled roof of the stable.* The fur-lined hat worn by the magus in pink was inspired by the visit to Siena in 1432 of King Sigismund of Hungary.* The picture may date about 1433–35.


I was starting to wonder how an Italian painting figured into Hungarian origins, but you answered it.

Certainly interesting.

Bill


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Ah, another heretic that has seen the light. 

Bill, that was fun. 

Anytime.

RBD


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> Ah, another heretic that has seen the light.
> 
> Bill, that was fun.
> 
> ...


LOL ;D

Let's say that one red dog in a painting that includes blue horses doesn't entirely convince me that Vizslas (as we know them today) existed in the 15th Century. However, if we are going to have mythology, you've certainly made it a more interesting one with that find. It would be cool to think that our modern Vs inherited at least some of its genetic material from dogs like the little red one in the painting, although I expect the true lineage is a lot more complicated and modern.

I'm still looking for old photographs of early Vizslas. Why are they so elusive?

Bill


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

About best I can do for a Victorian Era hunter picture from Prague with his trusty monochromatic dog with a nose the color of it's coat curled up on his right side. Looks like a modern Vizsla to me in sepia tones.

I think it would be fun to duplicate that scene and I may just do it for fun. 1880's hunter and 2010's hunter and dog.

Color film was still many decades to come.

Happy trails,
RBD


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> About best I can do for a Victorian Era hunter picture from Prague with his trusty monochromatic dog with a nose the color of it's coat curled up on his right side. Looks like a modern Vizsla to me in sepia tones.
> 
> I think it would be fun to duplicate that scene and I may just do it for fun. 1880's hunter and 2010's hunter and dog.
> 
> ...


Another great find RMB!

Quick web-searches confirms that the photographer, J. Mulac was active in the 1880s and 1890s. The dog certainly resembles the Vizsla type.

Bill


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Bill,
I love a challenge and I learned alot. You had me second guessing. Good question and lead to some cool finds.

I am going to do a reenactment of that parlor shot. I'll post it to my blog this weekend (if I can get Bailey to cooperate).

Happy trails,
Rod aka RBD


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> Bill,
> I love a challenge and I learned alot. You had me second guessing. Good question and lead to some cool finds.
> 
> I am going to do a reenactment of that parlor shot. I'll post it to my blog this weekend (if I can get Bailey to cooperate).
> ...


Looking at the man in the photo. He doesn't look (to me) like a Hungarian Aristocrat. More like a working class German or Czech. Maybe this is one of those "B*stard Hounds" you mentioned becoming popular in the late 1800's.

Bill


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

GSP are not monochromatic and being that it was in Prague???

If you like this stuff, which it sure looks like you do, I highly recommend a Thomas Mann book.

"Basham and I" or in the original German "Herr und Hund" from 1919 by the writer and philosopher Thomas Mann and his b*stard Hound (GSP).

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/05/herr-und-hund.html

A review of the book:
"With its great love and warmth, this book is a very special gift to readers: a great writer turning his attention to something commonplace--the relationship between a pet and its owner--resulting in a story that is not sentimental, hackneyed, or sweet, but a moving exploration of the love between animals and humans. Just reading Mann's simple description of how he speaks his dog's name, Bashan, and the electricity that name sends through his pet, is worth every penny."

Enjoy.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> GSP are not monochromatic and being that it was in Prague???
> 
> If you like this stuff, which it sure looks like you do, I highly recommend a Thomas Mann book.
> 
> ...


The all-liver GSPs are basically monochromatic, yes?

I do happen to be a fan of Thomas Mann, but—despite my father's best efforts—my German is veers toward nil. An interesting sidenote, the mother of my high school girlfriend was the secretary to Thomas Mann during his years in exile in the Pacific Palisades here in Los Angeles. She sort of set me off on the path of reading The Magic Mountain, Buddenbrooks, and Death in Venice. but I've never read "Basham and I."

Best wishes on the photo. Sounds fun. Thanks for all the time spent researching!

Bill


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## Israrules (Apr 5, 2015)

Amazing discussion

This is just what I wanted to read, the history of the V and a lot of debate.... really nice fellas 

Now to Bill (Spy Car), it will be really dificult (may be imposible)to find actual and conclusive evidence of a hunting dog named Vizsla in old manuscripts or pictures. For what I've read the first breed standard was writen around middle 19'th century, so before that, the Vizsla as we know it did not exists, the dogs that existed before that date for sure came in different colors and shapes (at least with some marks or some physical characteristics not present in the modern dogs), so there is no way to find a bagette colored dog which breed name is vizsla in 12th century pictures.

Plus, if Vizsla is a word with the meaning of seeker, a lot of dogs are going to be called like that. The thing about history is that you only can make hypotheses and theories with the facts you have in hand, so if there are diferent pictures and historical documents of hungarian people and hunters with dogs that resemble Vizslas during a long period of time, for sure those dogs are the ancesters of the modern breed, can we be 100% sure they are? No, but it is as close as we can get.

And for the dogs in the picture of hunters with a Vizsla like and another non Vizsla like dogs, for what I know, a lot of hunters hunt with different breeds at the same time depending on what they want to hunt. For example the breeder of my future puppy -I already meet her by the way - hunts with Vizsla and Podencos, very similar to the two dogs we see in that picture (one Vizsla like and other Lebrel like). The other dogs, at least the white one, looks molosoid, still used to fight big game. This is still used in boar hunting, hounds to persue and tire the animal and molosoid to fight them.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Here is a photo of a all-liver GSP that I turned sepia toned. Looks a little like a certain breed we're familiar with :-*


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Israrules said:


> Amazing discussion
> 
> This is just what I wanted to read, the history of the V and a lot of debate.... really nice fellas
> 
> ...


It was actually your thread that provoked this one (although it had been on my mind awhile).

I'm seeing a breed standard being set in 1925. Do you have other information?

I'm sure we're united in hopes to have the best understanding of how our breed emerged. Seems to me likely native dogs were crossed with other pointers to create the modern Vizsla. When and what seem uncertain, but i'd be surprised if English Pointers, GSPs, maybe Weimeraners were not in the mix, and that the breed emerged as a distinct type sometime between the 1880s and the 1920s. I am surprised how thin the evidence is for the fairly modern history (as in late-19th to early-20th Century hard-evidence). So far this thread has one (1) "maybe Vizsla" photo that is not from Hungary. 

Bill


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

I spent a total fo 20 minutes in research to come up with the two pictures. Not that tough. 

Prague in 1880-1890 was part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire.

If I find more pictures, I'll post them to my blog. Couple last posts on the subject.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2012/05/hungarian-government-wants-to-shut-down.html

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2012/10/why-world-almost-lost-vizsla.html


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## Israrules (Apr 5, 2015)

It was actually your thread that provoked this one (although it had been on my mind awhile).

I'm seeing a breed standard being set in 1925. Do you have other information?

I'm sure we're united in hopes to have the best understanding of how our breed emerged. Seems to me likely native dogs were crossed with other pointers to create the modern Vizsla. When and what seem uncertain, but i'd be surprised if English Pointers, GSPs, maybe Weimeraners were not in the mix, and that the breed emerged as a distinct type sometime between the 1880s and the 1920s. I am surprised how thin the evidence is for the fairly modern history (as in late-19th to early-20th Century hard-evidence). So far this thread has one (1) "maybe Vizsla" photo that is not from Hungary. 

Bill
[/quote]

Nice, thank you, good idea to post this topic 

I read in Robert L. White book Vizsla about the first breed standard and stud book in 1825, however I do not have the book in my hands yet and I hope it has more references, in the mean while I read this part in google books.

And the thing with those breeds is that they are recent, all appeared in th 19th century, that's a part I don't understand, everybody says they were used in the breed crossing, but then some crosses were made after or near the writing of the first standard -weird no?-


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Israrules said:


> Nice, thank you, good idea to post this topic
> 
> I read in Robert L. White book Vizsla about the first breed standard and stud book in 1825, however I do not have the book in my hands yet and I hope it has more references, in the mean while I read this part in google books.
> 
> And the thing with those breeds is that they are recent, all appeared in th 19th century, that's a part I don't understand, everybody says they were used in the breed crossing, but then some crosses were made after or near the writing of the first standard -weird no?-


I'm not going to shoot the messenger ( ) but the Robert L. White book appears to be the poster-child for sloppy research, substituting cut-and-pasted inaccuracies and unsubstantiated claims to spin false histories to new dog owners, knowing that ancient and noble lineages (even if pure BS) sell more books than truth.

Unfortunately Dr Ivan Osborn, mentioned earlier in the thread, appears to be the source of much of the "mythologizing," but layers of unsubstantiated and grandiose claims keep getting piled on to create false histories.

I think as members of the premier Vizsla owners forum should push back against accepting fables and falsehoods and aim to discover the real history (as is best possible, and knowing there will be mysteries) instead of accepting fantasy stories.

What 1825 Magyar Vizsla Stud book? (for example). Was there very such a thing? Or is it just a story someone invented that has been repeated over and over? 1925, yes. 1825, no.

Bill


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

All-Liver GSP or Vizsla?


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://www.hungarianvizsla.co.hu/avizsla_en.html


> The purposive, sports-like dog breeding saw prosperity in the 1860s Europe-wide. It was then that the English and German types of vizsla appeared in Hungary – to the detriment of the ancient Hungarian vizsla. The number of Hungarian vizsla was greatly reduced. In 1916, Tibor Thúróczi wrote an article in the Hungarian dog journal “Nimród” with the title “The old Hungarian yellow vizsla”. This article evoked a lot of response, with many people voicing their opinion in favour of the old Hungarian yellow vizsla. The movement was headed by Dr. Kálmán Polgár, Károly Bába and Béla Kerpely. It was in 1920 that – under the auspices of the Hungarian Kennel Club – the Association of Hungarian Vizsla Breeders was formed, and operated as a section of the National Vizsla Club.


No time to research. Sorry. I'm good with this Hungarian breeders report and explaination. Makes complete sense to me.

Happy trails and research on your quest for enlightenment.

RBD


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

redbirddog said:


> http://www.hungarianvizsla.co.hu/avizsla_en.html
> 
> 
> > The purposive, sports-like dog breeding saw prosperity in the 1860s Europe-wide. It was then that the English and German types of vizsla appeared in Hungary – to the detriment of the ancient Hungarian vizsla. The number of Hungarian vizsla was greatly reduced. In 1916, Tibor Thúróczi wrote an article in the Hungarian dog journal “Nimród” with the title “The old Hungarian yellow vizsla”. This article evoked a lot of response, with many people voicing their opinion in favour of the old Hungarian yellow vizsla. The movement was headed by Dr. Kálmán Polgár, Károly Bába and Béla Kerpely. It was in 1920 that – under the auspices of the Hungarian Kennel Club – the Association of Hungarian Vizsla Breeders was formed, and operated as a section of the National Vizsla Club.
> ...


What seems true from this is that there were hunting dogs in Hungary (of a mixed sort) that were called "vizslas" in later centuries because that is what hunting dogs are called in Hungarian and Turkish.

These native dogs virtually died out by the 1860 when other pointing breeds were imported. Someone got the idea to cross these imported dogs with local hunting dogs and out of these crossings the modern Vizsla was created. Most likely in the period of 1880 to the 1920s.

Claims of carefully kept records over centuries are hokum. The "breed" did not exist in the 10th Century or the 14th Century. There was no "stud book" in 1825 because the "Vizsla" (as we know it did not exist). Yet, mythology is perpetuated widely over striving for historical accuracy and sound scholarship.

i wish someone would endeavor to approach the subject in a serious fashion, rather than repeating fairy-tales.

Bill


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Good luck Bill in your search. I'm satisfied.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Me - I believe it did take 1000yrs 2 breed the pups we have 2 day - ? is - what do we do NOW - when we move away from a PREY driven PUP - a 1000yrs of breeding is LOST !!!!!!!


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

R said:


> Me - I believe it did take 1000yrs 2 breed the pups we have 2 day - ? is - what do we do NOW - when we move away from a PREY driven PUP - a 1000yrs of breeding is LOST !!!!!!!


There is no credible evidence to support anything other than Vizslas (as we know them) emerging along with other versatile gun-dogs through cross-breeding at the end of the 19th Century or early-20th Centuries.

Bill


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

Spy said:


> redbirddog said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.hungarianvizsla.co.hu/avizsla_en.html
> ...


wirehaired vizslas were first created in 1930's after supposedly wanting a breed with all a vizsla's drive and versatility but with a longer more durable, weather resistant coat than a smooth, I'm guessing and not offering any proof here, that the original breeder would have done research that spanned centuries and not just a few decades to create the wirehaired vizsla, as I say, not proof in itself but just trying to work the logic backwards from whv's point of origin.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

While I would agree the breed of dogs we call vizsla, would have changed over the years. I would think their characteristics go back farther, than you give them credit.
A little over 5 years ago I looked at some pups, and spent over a hour speaking with the gentleman, and his wife. They immigrated from Hungary, along with their dogs in the 60s to New York, before moving to Texas. The gentleman was 90 at the time I spoke with him. He said his father, and grandfather had raised the breed before him, and they had been a part of his family as far back as any of them could remember. That would have made him born in 1920, and you have generations before him that owned the breed.
His dogs were larger, and lighter than any other vizslas I've seen in the US, and also a little longer ears. They were all (6 of them) well mannered sweethearts, and greeted you as if they had always known you. 
He had urns with pictures on a shelf of the dogs that made the long travel with him, along with any of his other vizslas that had past in recent years.
While this is not proof, its good enough for me.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

TexasRed said:


> While I would agree the breed of dogs we call vizsla, would have changed over the years. I would think their characteristics go back farther, than you give them credit.
> A little over 5 years ago I looked at some pups, and spent over a hour speaking with the gentleman, and his wife. They immigrated from Hungary, along with their dogs in the 60s to New York, before moving to Texas. The gentleman was 90 at the time I spoke with him. He said his father, and grandfather had raised the breed before him, and they had been a part of his family as far back as any of them could remember. That would have made him born in 1920, and you have generations before him that owned the breed.
> His dogs were larger, and lighter than any other vizslas I've seen in the US, and also a little longer ears. They were all (6 of them) well mannered sweethearts, and greeted you as if they had always known you.
> He had urns with pictures on a shelf of the dogs that made the long travel with him, along with any of his other vizslas that had past in recent years.
> While this is not proof, its good enough for me.


Someone born in 1920 could easily have a father and grandfather that owned dogs that were part of the emerging modern Vizsla breed that was developing at the time. Nothing in this is contradictory with the most plausible time frame. Including the fact that the physical type was not yet completely stable.

Bill


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

this is one of the most compulsive threads *ever*on forum..love it 
time does embellish and exaggerate stories but I think that the absence of pictorial evidence and written testament isn't proof that vizslas that very closely resemble what we have today didn't exist way back when. Even ancient pictorial evidence shouldn't be taken as truth (imo),,,how many pics have we all seen of Adam and Eve?....why have they both got belly buttons? (but then again, being an anti theist I would notice that haha;0 )


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

harrigab said:


> this is one of the most compulsive threads *ever*on forum..love it
> time does embellish and exaggerate stories but I think that the absence of pictorial evidence and written testament isn't proof that vizslas that very closely resemble what we have today didn't exist way back when. Even ancient pictorial evidence shouldn't be taken as truth (imo),,,how many pics have we all seen of Adam and Eve?....why have they both got belly buttons? (but then again, being an anti theist I would notice that haha;0 )


But what we have is not just lack of evidence, but all sorts of claims that there is evidence. Records cited of "aristocrats" documenting the "breed," that are pure inventions. The White book is full of preposterous claims. Not one bit of evidence to back it up.

I understand that people might prefer a 1000 year old pure blood-line maintained by royalty, it makes a better story than a late 19th to early 20th Century creation. it would be a nice story, were it true. I'm not one to believe the Adam and Eve myth either. I guess I remain the heretic.

Bill


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the near extinction of the breed during WW2, with the breeding stock drastically reduced surely it follows that the diversity of the breed would also be diminished?


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Spy - just my opinion - no more or less - please show me - till some one sets a standard - they R just mutts - me !!!!!! they R always MUTTS - prove me in the field - this is what matters!!!!!!!! I do go along with breeding standarts - there is a conflict of intrests !!!!!!


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

harrigab said:


> I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the near extinction of the breed during WW2, with the breeding stock drastically reduced surely it follows that the diversity of the breed would also be diminished?


It is also acknowledged. even by supporters of the ancient lineage "theory," that the native hunting dogs of Hungary were virtually extinct by 1916, when they started an out-crossing with other breeds to create a facsimile (or new) type of pointer that was a mix of native and non-native dogs. This was called "saving" the Vizsla, when really it was using small v vizslas to create the versatile gun-dogs we enjoy today.

The stud book was not closed until 1935. That we know. 

Bill


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

R said:


> Spy - just my opinion - no more or less - please show me - till some one sets a standard - they R just mutts - me !!!!!! they R always MUTTS - prove me in the field - this is what matters!!!!!!!! I do go along with breeding standarts - there is a conflict of intrests !!!!!!


I agree. But the breed standard was set in 1925, not in 1025.

Bill


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

might have to get on forum jet and go to Budapest and see if I can find a friendly archivist on the banks of the Danube....are keys still above windscreen visor Calum?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Due to the fact that it would be a fact finding trip, are moderators invited ?


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

TexasRed said:


> Due to the fact that it would be a fact finding trip, are moderators invited ?


of course, I believe Jung was last on board, hope he's filled up the cabinet...no cargo hold for the reds though, they'll have to come in the cabin with us ....# Doug frantically peruses the interweb for a lear jet beginners flying manual with kentucky bourbon in hand..


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Spy said:


> TexasRed said:
> 
> 
> > While I would agree the breed of dogs we call vizsla, would have changed over the years. I would think their characteristics go back farther, than you give them credit.
> ...


While his dogs did not look like the ones we have, for a lack of a better word Americanized. They did have the look of some of the imports, and of the older pictures from Hungary. I didn't ask how many generations back his grandfather remembered the family owning, and breeding the dogs. I loved listening to him. So I let him speak more than I did, other than to ask a few questions to keep him going. I would never ever consider telling him his dogs did not fit the AKC standard. They fit the Hungary standard, and him perfectly. They were lovely, and looking back I should have purchased one.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

harrigab said:


> TexasRed said:
> 
> 
> > Due to the fact that it would be a fact finding trip, are moderators invited ?
> ...


I've heard they pretty much fly themselves. You just have to read the takeoff, and landing part of the manual, and we are good to go. Oh yeah and its 8 hours from bottle to throttle.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

https://youtu.be/7sHANgcVJ6k

I'd love to go to the land of the old Hungarian yellow Vizsla.

The above video is from 1964.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

redbirddog said:


> https://youtu.be/7sHANgcVJ6k
> 
> I'd love to go to the land of the old Hungarian yellow Vizsla.
> 
> The above video is from 1964.


I think we need to make a pilgrimage,,,something I'd love to do with like minded people, that seriously folks is a line thrown in the water. Internet isn't really throwing up conclusive evidence for Bills question..


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

I've thought of this pilgrimage for years. It would be fantastic to find a HVF member in Hungary who would help organize this adventure.

Friends have gone to Transylvania to get their Transylvanian Hound. They came back with great stories.

2016 sounds like a great time to get out of the U.S. for a while. It will be an election year and I'd prefer to be in Central Europe for at least a couple weeks.

RBD


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

I can certainly get the ball rolling Rod, I've got a few hungarian contacts that would be happy to help (I'm sure, but would need to confirm with them) I think we should do it, really do


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

back to thread anyway, my apologies. Another subject that we haven't mentioned is the show ring, I hate show rings where the criteria in my lifetime seemed to revolve around "show, not function", latterly however the judges seemed to have got their fingers out of their arses and now try and judge dogs on their ability to function (as well as just looking pretty in a show ring), I know this will never answer your question Bill, but at least we may get back to breeders that will take notice and realise that these dogs are meant to work, not ponce about in a ring with a high collar lead..


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

the PROOF is in the PUDDING !!! I did search the web 4 hunting scenes - but I - hate high Tech - just let me - shoot over PIKE - a POINT bang - feathers in his mouth -2 hand - if this did not make PIKE & me HAPPY - SHOOT BOTH OF US - LOL


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## Israrules (Apr 5, 2015)

Spy said:


> harrigab said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the near extinction of the breed during WW2, with the breeding stock drastically reduced surely it follows that the diversity of the breed would also be diminished?
> ...


My personal and preliminary conclusion is that there was dogs that accompanied -just like any other place in the world- Hungarian people, rich or common hunters, that used to call Vizsla because of their function, not because of the breed. What we see in the few pictures we have seen earlier in this topic of Hungarian hunters with a couple of dogs with the looks of a pointer, may have been the precursors of the modern Vizsla and might have been different 'breeds', that during generations and generations were selected because of their function.

At some point, may be in the 19th century may be earlier, people began to like the yellow colored ones and began to select a specific physical type with the working cualities they liked so much, and try to improve those qualities with other breeds (like English Pointer, Setter, etc). Like many other pointing breeds (Weimaraner, Braco Italiano, Braco de Auvernia, Perdigueiro Portugues, etc), this dog was specific to an area of land (Hungary), so it developed with the characteristics that local people liked. Other people realized that they needed to unify criteria so this dog could be breeded properly and they decided to make the first standard in 1935, and thus de modern Vizsla was born.

I think the history of the Vizsla goes back to centuries ago, why? Because all those hunting dogs with an specific appearance (the looks of a pointing dog), eventhough were not Vizslas as we know it today, were their ancestors and evolved and transformed in the modern Vizsla and were used from the begginning for the same very purpose they are breed today. Of course there have been variations in the physical type, it is normal, this dog is almost extinct because of two ww's, of course othe breeds were used to maintain the V's, for sure there was no other way, and happened to many breeds.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Israrules said:


> Spy said:
> 
> 
> > harrigab said:
> ...


I agree with this (in the main); however, I don't believe there was a "pointer type" (aka versatile gun-dog type) appearance until fairly modern times. I think this type emerged out of intensified efforts of people to create stylish and utilitarian dogs through selection and breeding for characteristics that were far more focused and defined that occurred in hunting dogs in less modern times. And that, in the case of the modern Vizsla, its creation involved other dogs in the versatile gun-dog/pointer type that were emerging in the 19th Century.

Were native hunting dogs used in the mix? I'd guess that was highly likely. But the (modern) Vizsla that doesn't really seem to be settled as a "breed" until the 20th Century does not seem to have a "vizsla" ancestor of the same type.

Despite that there are many false claims, including books stating there are records of careful record keeping, or almost 200 year old stud-books, and the like. These things are plainly not true.

I accept we may not ever know all the answers, but better to ask questions and strive for a genuine history than to engage in "mythologizing."

Maybe advances in DNA analysis and larger samples will one day shine some light on some of these questions? 

Bill


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## EuroVizion (Jun 8, 2014)

What a totally engrossing conversation! 

I am completely on board with any field trip in the next year as well. Ivy just turned 1 today, and is probably due for a visit to her cousins near Lake Balaton.

I have spent the last few hours searching online museum catalogs in Budapest and Vienna looking for something to add. Incidentally, I did discover that the Hungarian Heritage Museum in Cleveland, OH held an exhibition on Hungarian dog breeds back in 1996. I have dropped a request to see if they have some photos of 1880's immigrants with their dogs that they might share with us. Keep your fingers crossed!

There are a few things we might consider in researching Vizsla history. First is the complicated history of the Hungarian people. A well known cocktail party snipe is that there are more Hungarians outside the national borders of Hungary than there are in it. Modern Hungary, and the Hungary of history, are often two different things. If we hope to go back all the way to the Vienna Chronicle, we have to recognize that since the Magyar entered the Carpathian plain in 896, they have been challenged by Tartars, Ottomans (for two centuries), Russians, Nazis, and Soviets. The Hapsburg Monarchy at the start of WWI united Hungary with eleven other modern nations on today's maps. Written records and artwork were surely lost during all this turmoil. What did survive may be written in more languages, and spread further, than we might expect.

And that's assuming written records were kept. Before the introduction of rail and telegraph, life moved at the speed of a horse. Many on this forum have searched far and wide to locate a Vizsla pup, proving that even today our dogs are hard to find. Perhaps it was only the nobility that were well travelled, or well informed enough, to locate a man known for breeding such good dogs. With fame traveling by word of mouth, I must assume that breeders only sought to fill their own hunting needs and that of a limited community. Not much need to document the credentials of a dog when you're getting one from the guy you grew up with in the next village.

It is really only in the Industrial Age that we felt the need to catalog so much statistical information. Pre-Darwin and pre-Mendelson (remember those fruit fly charts from High School Bio class?), there wasn't a lot of human history where we cared to do exhaustive record keeping on the physical characteristics of things, or observe how they evolve once we've meddled with them. Documenting manifestation of genetic characteristics is a recent development in our own history of knowledge. Once again, who really cared about paperwork when you knew your Grandpa's friend just raised some perfect dogs?

Which brings me to a logical end. Although I am intensely curious about the history of Vizslas, no matter how far back we can actually document them, today's Vizslas certainly show the influence of responsible owners and breeders. A lively, alert, sympathetic red bird dog did not appear one day in a Neanderthal's cave. We shaped them into the magnificent hunters, friends, companions, jogging buddies and family members that we describe them as today. I would love to know when it all started, but just out of curiosity. 

The dogs we love today are the result of generations of successful bonding between animals and humans. Vizslas are just about darn perfect, so maybe we should take heart that there's at least one thing human beings have done well.

So...I'll raise a glass to Vizslas and their owners, happy to continue looking at old photos and paintings, or read a little more history...after a long walk... when Ivy's curled up on my feet.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

EuroVizion said:


> What a totally engrossing conversation!
> 
> I am completely on board with any field trip in the next year as well. Ivy just turned 1 today, and is probably due for a visit to her cousins near Lake Balaton.
> 
> ...


Enjoyed reading your post!

And I totally agree that the Vizsla is a creation humanity can feel proud in having shaped.

Allow me to amplify on one point (of agreement). You mention (rightly) "there wasn't a lot of human history where we cared to do exhaustive record keeping." That is reasonable. But when excited new Vizsla owners turn to books like the one by White referenced earlier, they will read claims that careful Vizlsa breeding records were kept by royalty and aristocrats far back in antiquity. Dog book authors, and websites that pick up misinformation without evidence or skepticism, seem content to either invent claims that are patently not true, or o do sloppy cut-and-paste jobs from other unreliable sources. That makes me crazy, since myth crowds out the true story.

We have an amazing dog in the V. I would like to really get the best possible story of its creation. 

Thank you for a great post.

Bill


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## Israrules (Apr 5, 2015)

When I was searching for more information, I remembered a couple of books we have in my mother's house and that were owned by my grandfather, who liked hunting and had a couple of Pointers. Those books are old, but complete, one is about the Pointer (El Pointer, from Magnneli Ferrari, Argentina 1973)and the other is about common hunting dogs in Spain (Perros de Caza, from Fiorenzo Fiorone, Spain 1974). They don't talk about the Vizsla specificaly but have interesting historical data

In summary they concide that there was not any pointing breed before the 16th century, only some dogs that were taught to stop near de game or that pointed naturaly. But these dogs were the result of diferent crossings between several types of hounds or between hounds and other types of dogs. Both authors, quoting important researchers from that time, coincides that the very first pointing dogs came from Spain or Italy and were reefered as braques or braccos, and pointers by english translations-maybe Vizslas in Hungarian territory- (this was only because of their characteristic 'pointing', not because any physical trait) and that this dogs were exported to France and later to England, they say that even in the German territory they had not their own pointing dogs. 

However the pointing dogs were not very popular until the hunting with fire arms was born and the only record of specific dogs were the Spanish Pointer (Pachon Navarro), some pointing dogs from Italy and a type of dog derived from those, bred in the royal kennels of France. Besides that, there wasn't any specific pointing breed until 18th or 19th century when the English Pointer and others (Irish Setter, German Pointers, etc) were born. A 2008 article 'Genetic differentiation in pointing dog breeds inferred from microsatellites and mitochondrial DNA sequence'suports the origin of the British pointing breeds in the Spanish pointer.

So what with the Vizsla?, this means that as any other pointing breed there was no Vizsla as we know it before 19th century and this breed only appeared after the crossing of Hungarian or Eastern European hunting dogs with the existing pointing dogs. However I still think the Hungarian Vizsla has hundreds and hundreds of years of history, because it's history is the history of its Hungarian ancesters.

I leave a link with an -IMO- objective point of view

http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2012/11/breed-of-week-vizsla_27.html

P.S. Sorry for my english, but I write the best I can :-\


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Israrules,

Your command of the English language is great in my opinion.

Excellent insight and a very good reference. Interesting how hunters went for the "foreign dogs" in the Hungarian Empire and overlooked their "native dog". Much as many Americans look at the Continental breeds as being "the best". The American Pointer is still the "top dog" at the highest level of field competition in the U.S.

To be something unique is just what the Vizsla is here in America. The Lab or other retrievers or scent or sight hounds and other working dogs are so "common looking."

"What kind of dog is that?" Novelty matters to certain types of people.
It really doesn't matter if it is 1880 or 1980 or 2015, a striking looking dog, such as a trim and fit pointer (of any type) compared to most hounds would be / and still is highly treasured.

A Vizsla is admired by most for its beauty. For the hunter for its drive. A great combination if you find the best Vizslas for both. 

This is one of the reasons modern Vizslas, as a breed, have so many "dual championships." Those dogs of the highest level in both the field AND the ring.

Happy trails,
RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

While the vizsla is a beautiful breed, and not as well know in the states. Its not the reason I picked the breed when looking for my next dog. I wanted a birddog first and foremost. Next was a dog I could also waterfowl with, and would be kept in the house. A lot of research went into looking at breeds that would fit the bill. Even though I could have went with a couple of other breeds, the vizsla stood out above the others. The same reason I picked the vizsla (Velcro), is the same reason some other hunters pass on owning the breed.

I find beauty in animals that can work with their owners as team.
It doesn't matter if its a cutting horse, a herding dog, hound, English pointer, or a Lab, I love to see them work.

IMO
People hundreds of years ago spent most of their time trying to fill needs in order to exist. If the dog didn't fit a need, I doubt it would have been kept. Culling any dog that did not have the traits they needed, would cause certain traits rise in a general area.


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