# Vizsla attack in Scarborough



## redbirddog

http://www.scarborougheveningnews.c...ack-owner-ignored-victim-s-injuries-1-4382712

Opening to the article:

_Lesley Ellis, of The Garlands, told Rita Highton "my dog has not done that" just seconds after it had ripped open the 74-year-old's right forearm.

The unprovoked attack by the *large Hungarian Vizsla hound * left Mrs Highton needing a skin graft to cover deep permanent scarring.

Chairman of the bench Tony Green told Ellis: "It is outrageous that on the day in question you were more concerned about the future of your dog than the impact of the bite on the woman."_

The comments at the end of the article, in the Scarbourogh Evening News are very interesting. 

Yes, they are powerful dogs. Very capable of removing flesh from bone. 

RBD


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## texasred

Any dog can bite. Its sad that she didn't want to own up to her dog biting at first. Yes we love our dogs, but the biggest disservice we can do is choose to overlook or out right lie about their flaws.


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## mswhipple

Absolutely!! This is why temperament considerations are so important for breeders, and socialization is so important for owners.

Willie is a big, strong dog, with very powerful jaw muscles. I know that if he wanted to , he could do serious damage. He doesn't want to. 

p.s. And yes, if something bad ever happens, own up to it and do your best to make amends for it.


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## Ozkar

I am still to see an aggressive Vizsla here in Oz. I had a good chance yesterday at the fun day with 50+ other Vizslas there and not once was there any sign of aggression from a dog to any human. Even the dominant older male who postured about with Ozkar was a big sook and came up to me for Vizsla hugs!  That's not to say that there aren't human aggressive V's here in Oz, just I've never seen one?? 

It amazes me how they even can be aggressive to a human? I've been in contact with literally hundreds of them over the last few years and have never seen any hint of human aggression. I think a normal V would have to be in a very anxious position to bite a human or has been trained in a non effective manner. Once again, it obviously happens, it just perplexes me as to why. I guess one day I might end up with one which is aggressive, then I will understand perhaps.


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## redrover

How terrible. I'm amazed she said that her dog didn't do it, but maybe it was some weird statement made in a mad moment of denial and shock? Regardless, I concur that the best thing we can do for our dogs is acknowledge when they've done something wrong. 

On my soapbox for a moment: It drives me spare when the news articles name the breed of the dog in cases like this. It only seems to further poor opinions of certain breeds, which can lead to a push for breed-specific bans, etc.


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## datacan

:'( Dog owner fault. Cannot blame the vic.


I walk my V off leash a lot in public places, even bike off lesh these days. 

Looking at people's faces as we pass by, I see almost all people don't mind the dog. There was only one who tried to hit Sam with a hockey stick and missed ???

In any case, I don't allow my dog to approach and interact and don't allow strangers to interact with him. Unless, they ask my permission first. This applies even if I have him on leash. 
I call the dog (100% recall - ecollar enforced if he's lost in smells) and hold him by the collar while they say hello.


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## texasred

We have seen numerous posts on this forum of Vs acting territorial or even aggressive. Then their are the ones that are uncomfortable with strangers or kids. There are some breeder and owners that are responsible for a lot of this happening.
First the breeders.
Not even going to bring up the puppy mills, they could care less about the pups they sell.
Other breeders will take a dog that performs well in the field or show ring, but doesn't have the correct temperament and breed it to one that does. They are thinking that it will even out the temperament issues. They are right. It does part of the time but will normally come to light in some of the litter or future generations. 
Then there are the owners that treat their dogs like kids not realizing the problems they are causing. They call them stubborn or hardhead instead of reading the writing on the wall. The pup is dominate and trying to become the pack leader. It tries to get higher than you when sitting on the couch, barks, guards food, and growls if woken up. You should always watch your dogs closely and you will see if a dog lick his lips, squint his eyes, or have a change in his stance. He might be on sit but every muscle in his body is tight. If you let someone approach your dog at that time there is a good chance they will get bitten.
Then the pups that aren't socialized correctly. There is no way of knowing if it is hereditary or from lack of socializing. 
My point is if your dog does not have ALL of the good qualities a should, do the breed a favor and don't breed it.

I have been told by numerous people that my male is show quality. He performs excellent in the field. At our last trial some of the people couldn't believe that I would never breed him. My reason is he has a dominate side that I have to stay on top of. In the wrong hands he would be a bitter. His dam and shire have good temperaments and he is the only one out of the litter that has this fault. That leads me to believe that somewhere back in his bloodlines was a dominate dog.


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## datacan

I would go even further and suggest that it should be breeder responsibility to match the right dog with the right owner.
Owner experience with dogs should weigh heavily when selecting a dog. 
No one is born experienced in dog ownership and I find more and more responsible breeders offer to help with training the owner, if needed. I strongly believe Vizsla breeders love the breed and are dedicated to it (at least all the ones I met so far).





TexasRed said:


> Then there are the owners that treat their dogs like kids not realizing the problems they are causing. They call them stubborn or hardhead instead of reading the writing on the wall. The pup is dominate and trying to become the pack leader. It tries to get higher than you when sitting on the couch, barks, guards food, and growls if woken up. You should always watch your dogs closely and you will see if a dog lick his lips, squint his eyes, or have a change in his stance. He might be on sit but every muscle in his body is tight. If you let someone approach your dog at that time there is a good chance they will get bitten.


I agree very much, owner attitude plays a big role in how the dog acts. Thanks for putting it so clearly.


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## texasred

Due to the fact that these hunting dogs are in our homes and taken to many public places they need to be held to a high standard.

What I consider a good temperament is a dog that gets along with other dogs. A dog that you can reach in to his bowl and remove something while its eating. He happily meets strangers with tail wagging. You can crawl in his crate with him. He can be moved when sleeping. A dog that under any circumstance would never consider biting its owner or family members. A dog that will investigate and become comfortable with new things in its surroundings.
If your dog doesn't do this then you should never breed him. Instead work with him on being a better member of the family, and if you want another vizsla just buy one. 
I realize I probably judge my dogs harder than anyone else ever will. But I would rather err on the side of caution when it come to temperament.


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## Hbomb

I completely agree about responsible breeding. I will freely agree we were quite naive when we got H, the breeder didn't ask us a lot of questions and was quite keen to sell him to us... In retrospect that was prob not a good thing and we are lucky he has turned out with such a nice temperament.

I was walking him the other day when I met a farmer with a female v. Immediately he said 'oh he looks like a good stud dog, phone me in a couple months when he is matured.'. H Is not even 5 months old!!! I was speechless. P

Anyway we are going to get him neutered as soon as the vet advises....


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## jjohnson

I know this will not be popular because we all love our Vizslas, BUT, I have had several different trainers (from different places) tell me that Vizslas are one of the most common dogs they see with behavioral issues. Our behaviorist told us Vizslas are one of the most common dogs he sees with bite histories in our area. I don't think it because of aggression,per se, however, but because of fear and timidity, and it does all go back to breeding and socialization. They are amazing dogs, but for more reasons than just exercise requirements, need to be in the hands of experienced pet owners, I think. We were also naive going into Vizsla ownership and have learned a lot. 

One thing I have noticed, as an owner of a timid dog, is that even when you tell people your dog is afraid, they will continue to try to pet him! The other day I had Gus on-leash on a walking trail and ran into an older couple with a GSP, and the older guy just loved Gus and kept trying to bend his face down to his level and pet him, even while I was continuously trying to back up and tell him my dog was obviously scared (tail betwn legs, hair up on his back)! THAT is how people get bitten. If a dog is afraid of you, DO NOT try to grab or pet him, and DO NOT stick your face in his!


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## Moose

Dogs are unpredictable. Even if your dog is the most tame, well behaved dog on the planet...there is still a chance something could scare the pup so much that they get aggressive. 

I've never seen a nasty bone in Moose, ever- but I know that it could happen, so I'm always cautious around unfamiliar children , and...the mailman;-)


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## Looney

wow! that would suck!!!!

Laszlo is super social...too social actually!

he's not afraid or timid of anything execpt my "angry" tone.

He was bred with a family of 6 adult v's and 2 adult v's here and there, her kids' dogs...and 3 cats and a Water Dog of sorts so he was used to others. Carol took him to her parents house for dinner every night with his daddy flash so he's used to strangers, strange homes and car rides. I guess i got lucky in that aspect, i'd hate to have a timid pup......i'm out going myself.......

the things that "haven't" frightened him is amazing in my eyes as one or two of them made my wife jump back, but not little Laszlo...he's a tuff guy!

wait, when that pitbull mix lunged/barked/snarled at him he got a bit, tail between the legs but that was good. It was the pits house and he felt Laszlo needed checked....he didn't but when the pit checked him he was checked. He was trotting toward the stairs and the pit barked across the room, Laszlo stopped in his tracks and sat down like "Yo, sorry i get it!" kinda cute actually.


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## polkan

I think "responsible breeding" and "selecting for temperament" are, unfortunately, those words that everyone is using without having an agreed understanding of their exact meaning or an accepted standard against which to measure, unlike conformation or a hunt test. 

Sometimes, they simply mean breeding dogs with AKC papers in comfortable environment (as opposed to the puppy mill) and they can also provide certain owners with a way to blame the breeder for their own mistakes in training and neglect in socializing. 

But even when it comes to recognized "name" breeders, it's hard to see what these terms could mean.

Rebel Rouser ET is a legendary Hall of Fame Vizsla, the number 1 producer of Dual Champions (a virtually impossible dream for the vast majority of breeders). He died in mid-1990s of old age. But he's still producing offspring thanks to frozen semen (and it's not cheap!). It would take many hours of work for a top of the line breeder to make an informed decision on temperament and there would still be no guarantees, only more educated guesses.

Even in a living dog, temperament tests provide a portrait of what the dog is as a result of genetics, upbringing and training. Puppy temperament tests have been proven unreliable predictors of adult temperament in study after study. If a dog is badly under-socialized by irresponsible owners but has champion genes and outstanding hunting ability - should this dog be considered bad temperament?

So I'm just not sure how a breeder could actually select for temperament in a better way than they do now. I used to think differently, but having talked to quite a few breeders I realized there's more complexity and nuance here.

Even if both parents have outstanding temperament (by whatever measure), it's not a guarantee that offspring will have it especially if "bad temperament" is a recessive gene - and, by the way, the gene for temperament (like epilepsy) has not yet been identified.

/rant over


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## mswhipple

Nevertheless, they need to keep working on it however they can... 

I was amazed when my Vet and his staff told me that they see a lot of Vizslas with poor temperaments, as that has not been my experience at all. I have never met an aggressive Vizsla. 

Back in the olden days (or so I have read), selecting for temperament was a simple thing. Any dog that ever showed the slightest bit of aggression toward human children or adults under any circumstances was promptly killed. They called it "culling". Pretty extreme but very effective. Nowadays we have sterilization, of course.


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## mrbnichols

Ok, being a fairly new V owner, I have to say this. Lexi who will be 6 months on Sunday, Although she is very young yet she listens extremely well. Since we got her I have been on a number of websites and this forum trying to learn the most I can about the breed. Maybe I am way off here but Yes the breeder plays a role in the dog, but I don't think it is even close to what the owners contribute to the temperament. I started socializing her to everything I could around 10 wks old. I have young nieces and nephews and even a baby that would be around regularly. So to get to the point. My Fiancee and I can touch her food dish carry her like a baby sleeping or not and almost anything else and she doesn't do anything. I have watched while I told my Nephew to get a hand-full of food out of her dish to see what she would do and she just kind of stopped eating and watched him. However at a BBQ last weekend I tried having a relative who she was not familiar with do the same thing and she growled so i told him to stop and move away. We take Lexi to a dog park a couple times a week to play, Lexi is a hit and has a lot of friends there both Human and K9. There has been only two instances where there was ever an issue. An Older German Sheppard about twice the size of her, immediately after coming into the dog park made a dash straight to her when she was about 150 yards away while her and two other dogs were playing and rolled her then kind of just stood over her, seeing the whole I called and Lexi came running although the GS tried to herd her. The other was just about a week ago. We had just gotten to the dog park when a rather large pitbull barked at her. I looked at it and the owner and in the mean time Lexi took of and ran right up to him and just stood there both my self and the other owner started towards he was about 5 ft away and the pit was on a leash. (kind of weird i thought in a dog park) The pit looked nervous I called Lexi to come and when she turned around to come the pit became aggressive and lunged at her thankfully on a leash. Not sure what all that meant but we moved to different area cause I was worried. The other thing I want to say is I believe Lexi would do anything for us. Although she would immediate run to most people who would walk in the door. I am pretty sure she would bite and/or attack someone that meant us harm. I actually believe they can sense more then most of us think. So to end I am sure there are V's that have poor temperament but I don't think that is the V's fault I would say it was how she was raised or because of her life experience and owners. I test her everyday on different things and she amazes me how smart she really is.


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## texasred

Owning 3 Vs of different temperament, all raised the same til it was clear that one had to be kept under control.
My male was raised going every where we went that allowed dogs, and some places that didn't. There is not a field, stream or piece of woods near my house that he hasn't been. We would go for walks in the neighborhood in the evening. We have 5 different stores that allow dogs and he was at them weekly. My kids have friends over all the time. He was at baseball games, swim party's and at every get together we went to. I took him to training days with other sporting dogs. He was out of the house doing things with me 5-6 days a week. He was a happy pup with no worries. At about 7 months old he started to guard is crate. If he was laying in it ( door open or closed) and anyone walked into the room other than me he would start growling. Then he started trying to guard me and not want my son to sit next to me. If sleeping he would snap if woken up.
Not something that is acceptably in my house, so we went to work on helping him be a better dog. He doesn't guard me or his crate anymore. I can tell him to move when sleeping and he will. He is great with other people in the field but still can be touchy with them in close confined quarters. He has to follow every command, every time. If I let him slack my pretty boy turns into snarling mess.
MY second V (female) raised the same way loves everyone and thinks they must be there just to visit her. My third V (female) will hang back at first, see that they are OK. Once I greet them, then she is ready to visit and have fun. I can pick up the two females while they are sleeping and they would never dream of growling at me. I could probably stick my head in their bowl while they are eating and all I would get is wet kisses.
My male will always be a work in progress but that's OK.
The point of this long story is without proper training and socialization you will not be able to tell if the aggression is genetic or man made.


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## Ozkar

TR, this is just my opinion of course, but this statement you made........... "If I let him slack my pretty boy turns into snarling mess.".................... to me, is instrumental in how a dog behaves.

While I am sure there are some completely psychotic V's out there, I am more of the opinion, that the majority of them who bite, have been allowed to get away with aggression, not corrected or controlled and therefore have Carte` Blanche to act that way. 

Anytime mine have exhibited anything in the way of aggression, they get pulled into line swiftly.

My little pointer copped a relatively harsh correction from me yesterday when she growled at a dog while out walking. She immediately was corrected and had free leash privelidges removed instantly. She wasn't happy, but I bet London to a brick she will think twice before doing it again.

They need to know that "YOU" give permission to growl or act aggressively and they have no say in it. 

When I got Astro, he had some of these aggressive traits. He would growl if a dog or human came near his bone, food, or disturbed his sleep.

Normally I use very positive methods, however for correcting this type of behaviour, I use a rather more harsh and possibly slightly negative method.

They growl over a bone. It's gone.....

They growl over food, they miss that meal..........

They growl if moved when asleep....out of the bed.......

Now this flies in the face of my usual methods I know, however with this behaviour, I wanted to create a marked difference in the way I dealt with it, so as to ram home that the behaviour results in rather more harsh results. It has worked well for me and is literally the only time I use negative enforcement.


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## datacan

I never went to dog parks but then again I also owned a German Shepherd. I must stress the problem lies with the owners, not the dogs.

Found this on Leerburg - why dog parks are not so good.... wouldn't you know, the first picture, two Vizsla dogs. I guess they doesn't understand Vizslas, I don't really like that picture but, I agree with the general idea behind the article they posted.

http://leerburg.com/dogparks.htm


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## Ozkar

Yep... I agree with all of what they said in the article also. 

However, I still use a dog park to maintain dog socialisation and confidence. The one thing they state in the article, which could almost be missed if your not reading carefully, is and I will subquote....... without adequate pack leadership from humans pack dominance needs to be established. 

The key words being from humans. Which supports what you say totally Datacan, that it's not the dogs that are the problem, but the owners.

I have been lucky enough to find several similarly minded people with there dogs who go at the same time each day. So I go at that time and don't have issues. But, we all monitor all the activity of our dogs carefully. Ours have developed a sort of pack too, where an outsider dog is carefully scrutinised by all before being allowed into the play. It's interesting to watch. We also are eagle eyed with ours to ensure play doesn't escalate. 

But, I only go to the dog park once or twice a month now. My dogs get bored with it quickly and just want to go and find some birds!


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