# Dog bite - need advice



## suzannethemom (Oct 27, 2015)

Our 9 month old male Vizsla OLIVER just bit our son (age 22). My husband is taking our son to the hospital for stitches.

The attack was completely unprovoked and the first time this has happened. Oliver was sleeping on my lap and my son sat down next to us on the sofa. Oliver began to growl and show his teeth. I was trying to distract the dog and saying “stop it, come lay down, hey, knock it off.” My son moved his arm onto the sofa and Oliver clamped onto his hand while shaking his head. The bite is severe and will require stitches.

What do I do? This is tragic, unbelievable, hard to comprehend right now. How could such a lovable, playful puppy be so vicious? How can I ever trust Oliver again? I don’t know what to do.


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## suzannethemom (Oct 27, 2015)

According to this document, it was a LEVEL 4 bite.

http://www.dogtalk.com/BiteAssessmentScalesDunbarDTMRoss.pdf


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

While not provoked, it sounds like a sleeping dog, guarding you.
If you try to keep him, you will have to make some big changes in your life. Also work with someone who has a lot of knowledge with these type of dogs. 

If your not up to that, I would ask the breeder to take him back. Please don't ask what the breeder does with him. A high percentage, you won't want to know.

Your other alternative is to be with him, when he crosses over. I've had to do this, and it's heartbreaking. For whatever reason, some dogs have a brain that doesn't always fire the way it should. It's not their fault, and they can be very loving dogs most of the time.
I'm so very sorry you, and your family are faced with this very tough decision. My heart goes out to you, and I hope your son is going to be okay.


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## Gabica (Jan 20, 2018)

Sounds very difficult, i agree and hard to decide whether it is aggression or reflexion. Was this the first time he has ever shown this or any level of biting behavior? was his relationship friendly with your son before? also how was he behaving after the bite? there are a lot of articles on the web about sleep aggression/reflexion you may want to read. Also you may want to get him checked by your vet in order to exclude any hidden/suppressed sickness or pain he has.


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## HeidiMS/AL (Aug 2, 2017)

Did Oliver come from the same breeder that had Lexy?


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## suzannethemom (Oct 27, 2015)

Yes, Oliver came from the same breeder where Lexy was. The litter certificate shows the SIRE as Rebel Rouser Born Again and the DAM is Touchdown Guys Lil Izzy.

Oliver and my oldest son have always gotten along. That’s what makes this incident so weird. Oliver is our goofy, lovable Vizsla who steals shoes and always want to play. Our 3 year old female Vizsla is the “difficult” one who is moody and stubborn.


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## suzannethemom (Oct 27, 2015)

I did a lot of online reading (and crying) last night and the behavior sounds like resource guarding. Oliver was asleep on my lap in a “highly valued” spot and my son sat down right next to Oliver. He was saying “hello” and petting Oliver. Then the growing and teeth baring started.


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## suzannethemom (Oct 27, 2015)

The wound required 4 stitches (photo below).


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## Gabica (Jan 20, 2018)

have you tried contacting a behaviorist? i would just not give up on him despite of the incident until all stones turned. even ask the breeder, they often have tons of experience we usual vizsla owners don`t.


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## HeidiMS/AL (Aug 2, 2017)

Sounds like something is bad wrong with Oliver. Since he came from a"'free range" breeder, I'd be thinking tick born infection. A quick search showed average of 12000 TBD case reported a year in Mn ( Ya'll got a lot of dogs). Lyme disease can be passed down to children/pups form mom before birth. Heck, Ole Iil Izzy could of had it while pregant w/Oliver. Lymes diseases long-term neurological problems/symptoms includ ; Aggression, confusion, seizures, epilepsy and othe disorders. These can also, be symptoms of other coinfections (Lyme disease almost always has a travle buddy) If this is something you want to explore- I'll help as much as possible Just another stone!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

suzannethemom said:


> Yes, Oliver came from the same breeder where Lexy was. The litter certificate shows the SIRE as Rebel Rouser Born Again and the DAM is Touchdown Guys Lil Izzy.


I can only find the dams OFA records, and know she came from CK kennels.
The sire is not in the data base, or it didn't show up. Have you talked to the breeder, about what happened?

Yes, a full vet check up is in order. 
But unless you've seen other changes in him, they may not find anything medical.


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## suzannethemom (Oct 27, 2015)

Should I have Oliver tested for Lyme disease?

One thing that has always bothered me is that Oliver sometimes looks cross-eyed when I hold a treat or toy close to his face. However, during his very first puppy exam, the veterinarian said that his eyes looked healthy and were positioned properly in their sockets.


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## suzannethemom (Oct 27, 2015)

Good idea. I will email the breeder right now.


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## suzannethemom (Oct 27, 2015)

Side note: We have been attending a basic obedience class with Oliver for the past 8 weeks. He has been doing well, although he is highly distracted by the other dogs. I felt like Oliver was bonding with me as his “trainer” and appeared to be maturing quite a bit. Things were going well until yesterday.


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## HeidiMS/AL (Aug 2, 2017)

The lyme test is 50-50. That's what got me in trouble. If you are going to have him checked : 1st find a GOOD LYME VET, on humans they are know as; lyme literat md (LLMD). 2nd go prepared. LLMD will treat on clinical with test as support.


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## lincoln_vizsla (Jan 11, 2018)

I am so sorry that you have had this bad experience with Oliver, and hope your sons hand is healing well. I agree that a vet check would be a good idea to rule out anything medical. It may not turn up anything, but good to definitively rule out any medical issues in getting to the bottom of what happened. I would strongly encourage you to consult with a trainer or behaviorist as suggested by Gabica, and I don't believe that this is a sign that there is something seriously wrong with Oliver. I have known of other vizslas and dogs that have snapped and growled at family members, and even bitten, when they have been sleeping or on the couch. This did not escalate to the level of the bite that your son suffered, but was enough to have the family members avoid the dog altogether when the dog was sleeping or on the couch. While this does not make Oliver's behavior acceptable and I do not condone what he did, I just wanted to provide some context that this can happen with some dogs and it doesn't automatically mean they are aggressive or bad dogs. They may just need some extra training, guidance and rules in this area.

I think you are right in your assessment that this is some form of resource guarding. This could even be resource guarding directed towards you. I have seen other dogs who resource guard their main caregiver. I note that you have been bonding with Oliver through recent obedience training and it could be that through this process he has become very strongly attached to you. Possibly when your son approached he mistakenly saw him as a threat to the bond between the two of you and growled to try and warn him off.

I am no expert and again would encourage you to speak to a dog trainer or behaviorist, but there were a couple of things that I wanted to suggest that may be of help. The first would be counter-conditioning. At the moment Oliver sees others approaching him on the couch as something negative that causes him to react in the way he did with your son. Given what has happened to your son he may not be up to helping with this, but if you had another willing family member, friend, dog lover etc. that could help you could basically work to change the response Oliver has to someone else approaching when he is on your lap on the couch. This would work by having the approaching person offer Oliver a high value treat. At first this would be done from a distance, but gradually as he gets more and more comfortable with someone approaching they could get closer. The idea is that over time he would start to anticipate the high value treat and see someone approaching as positive rather than reacting negatively.

Another thing you might want to try would be teaching Oliver an off command (or whatever command works for you and Oliver) so that you can ask him to get off the couch when he is growling or otherwise acting inappropriately. The hope being that he realizes that being on the couch is a privilege and he has to behave if he wants to enjoy this privilege.

I know that right now while the incident is still fresh it is hard to trust Oliver and you feel at a loss as to what happened or what to do, but I do hope you will be willing to give Oliver another chance. From what you have told me he is a great puppy in all other regards and I really think a trainer or behaviorist will be able to help overcome this problem so that you can regain trust in Oliver and continue to build on your already loving relationship.


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## lexlutheran (Feb 3, 2018)

It sounds like you're not being alpha enough and he thinks he is the alpha...just something I've heard from trainers on dog shows. Some dogs need a firm alpha figure to shun those aggressive behaviors. Reminds me of the lady who had a pit that chewed off her arm recently when she tried to break up a fight her dog was involved it. I am sure she treated her dog like a baby...and that might've been the problem. 

Sent from my LG-LS777 using Tapatalk


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

lexlutheran said:


> It sounds like you're not being alpha enough and he thinks he is the alpha...just something I've heard from trainers on dog shows. Some dogs need a firm alpha figure to shun those aggressive behaviors. Reminds me of the lady who had a pit that chewed off her arm recently when she tried to break up a fight her dog was involved it. I am sure she treated her dog like a baby...and that might've been the problem.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS777 using Tapatalk


I wouldn't just assume that. In fact I try to assume very little, when I am not a part of a dogs daily life. 
I've owned dogs that would never bite, even if held in the air by their toes.
Dogs that could be pushed to bite, if you were not someone that they were fully bonded with. And lastly dogs that could not be trusted, with anyone other than my husband, and I. 
All the dogs started out with the same training methods. But you have to adjust to the dog you own, not the dog you owned in years past.
Yes, you can spoil a dog, and some will take it to extremes, if given the option. That does not mean it will lead to a bite with every dog. 
I don't really think of us as alpha, even though we are clearly the boss. I want my dogs, to want to work for me. To be fair to them, and enjoy us working as a team.
To get that we have to be consistent in our training, and them have a clear understanding of the rules.
It can't be okay part of the time, and not others. This is just confusing to them.
While some dogs need more rules, and training in place to live with us. The training does not need to be harsh. If we lashout, the dog learns our actions can't be trusted. This in no way means, I am a treat only trainer. Just that there needs to be a balance in your training methods. 

When it comes to dog bites, it's best worked out between the family, a behaviorist, and the breeder.


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## Betty (Apr 14, 2016)

That breeder is not a "free range" breeder. I have one of Touchdown Guy's sons.


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## Gabica (Jan 20, 2018)

I am really happy that i found this forum. I have gotten lots of great coaching and advice from our breeder, and have read and researched a lot myself too, and having a live, supportive forum like this is extremely valuable. I have always known that people who are owned by vizslas tend to be keeping together and this is another great example. Howdy from Texas to everyone.


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## HeidiMS/AL (Aug 2, 2017)

(That breeder is not a "free range" breeder. I have one of Touchdown Guy's sons). If you would be so kind as to look at the thread: Bringing Home Lexy ( post # 7)


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Betty said:


> That breeder is not a "free range" breeder. I have one of Touchdown Guy's sons.


The breeder was not named in this thread. Only who would have bred one of the parents.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

what's a "free range" breeder?, not a term I've come across this side of the pond.


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## HeidiMS/AL (Aug 2, 2017)

In southeast U.S. it means livestock allowed free to range over pastures/grazeing area. As opposed to restricted or confined.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

harrigab said:


> what's a "free range" breeder?, not a term I've come across this side of the pond.


Its taken from the term of cattle, that were not fenced in. But moved/herded out on the open plains to graze.
Its just basically a dog that gets to run loose outside. Some people own enough land, and their dogs get to.


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

I am so sorry this happened Suzanne.

I'll say what everyone else won't, and it pains me to do so, but here goes: You need to find Oli a new home. This was a serious attack, and your first priority is to your human son. If it was "resource guarding" or not, it's aggression, and that's always hard to resolve. And while you're making this attempt, consider how life would look, with you always being on guard yourself and worried, and kiddo confronted with the object of his trauma.

I am really sorry, but some dogs don't like small kids, and when stuff like this happens, it's usually best to find them anew home ASAP.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

gingerling said:


> I am so sorry this happened Suzanne.
> 
> I'll say what everyone else won't, and it pains me to do so, but here goes: You need to find Oli a new home. This was a serious attack, and your first priority is to your human son. If it was "resource guarding" or not, it's aggression, and that's always hard to resolve. And while you're making this attempt, consider how life would look, with you always being on guard yourself and worried, and kiddo confronted with the object of his trauma.
> 
> I am really sorry, but some dogs don't like small kids, and when stuff like this happens, it's usually best to find them anew home ASAP.


Her son is 22 years old. ; )


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## suzannethemom (Oct 27, 2015)

OLIVER UPDATE: No reply from the breeder yet (sigh). As for the free range concern, the breeder only lets his older dogs roam his farm property. The litter was kept indoors in a gated off area. I researched Lyme Disease and there are several other symptoms that we will watch for.

Maybe Oliver’s brain isn’t wired right, but that doesn’t fit his pattern of behavior. He is bullied by Chloe every day over toys and treats and he always cowers to her. He has NEVER shown aggressive behavior before.

I am very strict with both Oliver and Chloe (ages 9 months and 3 years old). Oliver is sometimes in a “goofy puppy” stage and doesn’t always listen. I am stern with him and give him a “time out” when needed. Oliver has been more responsive and eager to please since we started obedience class.

I truly appreciate the suggestions made by everyone, especially LINCOLN VIZSLA. We are cautiously optimistic and have discussed doing all of those steps she suggested. I read an incredibly heart breaking post on this forum titled “Our Beloved Lincoln” that made me realize that we need to give Oliver one more chance. Our kids are 19 and 22 years old. We all agreed that we need to set stricker rules with Oliver, especially regarding sofa privileges.

I plan on talking privately to the obedience teacher tonight after class for advice. Our outlook is “hope for best, but prepare for the worst.”


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