# Dominance theory



## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

This was posted by my breeder on her Facebook page. I found it interesting, as I do not personally subscribe to dominance theory. I know many folks do, and I have no problems with those who use it, as long as the dog is not being harmed physically, emotionally, or mentally, all three of which can occur no matter what training method or theory a person uses. (ETA: This doesn't mean I don't necessarily believe in negative reinforcement--used properly and humanely, the dog does not suffer for more than a second, and it is not needed for an extended period of time. I just don't really like things like alpha rolls, personally.)

Anyway, here are the links!

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Medical+news/Dumbed-down-by-dominance/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/762103 
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=767068&pageID=1&sk=&date=


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## polkan (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks for the link, goes on my reading list 

Interestingly, while we're on the topic of debunking conventional wisdom, Kathy Sdao has a new book out that totally obliterates NILIF. 

http://www.amazon.com/Plenty-Life-I...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334082437&sr=1-1

Very provocative book that really makes you stop and think about things we take at face value. It's aimed at trainers but an easy read for everyone.


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## jjohnson (Nov 9, 2011)

I had never paid any attention to the different approaches to dog training, until we met with a trainer for our puppy. I also don't subscribe to dominence theory, mostly because our trainer/behaviorist doesn't. Here is another interesting article he wrote on his blog, in which he also attempts to de-bunk the dominence theory: 

http://companionanimalsolutions.com...dification-techniques-and-the-risk-to-owners/

_"There is considerable scientific literature which argues against the idea that most behavior issues are a result of dominance issues or a lack of “alpha” status of owners, instead suggesting that most aggression issues result from fear (self-defense) and anxiety-related issues. It is equally clear from the scientific literature that confrontational methods like alpha-rolling, forced or dominance downs, and pinch collars increase the levels of a dog’s stress, anxiety, and fear; thus it is not surprising that the use of these techniques were reported to be associated with high levels of aggressive response. Interestingly, the most commonly reported source of these techniques was television, and while the research did not ask for specifics, it can be assumed that many of these techniques were learned from a popular television show hosted by Cesar Millan."_


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

I am not sure but I think that the dominance theory has been updated quite a bit. Haven't seen anyone do alpha rolls anymore.

I tested a lot of different ways and found positive and negative markers work best. That way Sam doesn't loose drive at all. 
_A positive marker is YES -treat or just a pat on the back, a negative marker is NO - try again._


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Something I posted three years ago on Redbirddog titled: Defending A Good Man.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/07/defending-good-dog-man.html

"In my two years of Vizsla ownership I have heard many times disagreements that respected dog owners have with Cesar Millan.

Today and yesterday on the Yahoo group VizslaTalk, there was a drive to have a petition signed against a vendor using him as their spokesman.

Cesar's Way was one of the first "how to understand my Vizsla" books that I read, and I truly enjoyed it.

Tonight I opened the book again and went to the foreword by Martin Deeley - President, International Association of Canine Professionals (at the time of the publication of the book).

His opening paragraph hit home with me then and still does.

"Today, even though we have more books, more help, more training gadgets, and definitely more treats, there are more badly behaved dogs than ever before. We have the means to help us achieve well-behaved dogs, yet we lack sufficient understanding of our dogs' natures. While most of us are well-intentioned and loving dog owners, this lack of understanding can create many common dog problems. Put simply, dogs are not small humans. They do not think like humans, act like humans, or see the world in the same way as humans. Dogs are dogs, and we need to respect them as dogs. We do them a huge disservice by treating them like humans and thus create many of the bad behaviors we see today."

This is the part I loved:

"From the first moment I saw Cesar Millan work with dogs on his show Dog Whisperer, I knew he understood this concept. He is a unique man who is not afraid to be politically incorrect, who talks about leadership with dogs and is not afraid to give and show a correction when a dog requires it."

I'm sure there are methods he uses that Chloe and Bailey will never need to see because they are well-mannered and, I hope, well-trained dogs. But knowledge that works is what I was and am after. His advice, for the most part, rings true for me.

Long post for which I apologize. 

RBD


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## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

I enjoy a lively discourse! Talking about different training methods is always enlightening and never boring. 

For what it's worth, I don't think of dominance theory as being politically incorrect, and I'm not even entirely against Cesar Milan. His body, mind, heart approach is fantastic, and I use it with Jasper. While I don't necessarily agree with some of his views or methods, I also think he's done an amazing job making the public more aware of just how necessary dog training is. The danger, of course, is that new dog owners try to utilize the same methods, whether or not they are warranted, and don't meet the same success. They apparently can't read those warnings before the show, and also have little to no situational awareness. They react to the behavior without bothering to find the reason for it. When it doesn't work, they keep trying, or get harsher, and end up in some way damaging or unduly stressing their dog. People can misuse and abuse any training method, really. So basically, I guess I'm just against uneducated dog owners. 

Also, I don't consider dogs tiny humans. I think people who do are ridiculous. They're *dogs*. Sure, they have thoughts and desires and drives, and probably even some basic emotions. While some of these aren't as nuanced as we see in humans, other traits are driven to the opposite extreme in dogs. And while people do them a disservice by treating them as humans, I think we may also do them a disservice by assuming that they see us as part of the pack, inasmuch that they see us as "dogs" and that the same "dog" rules apply to us. Certainly we're part of their pack--we live with them, eat with them, etc. But we're not dogs, just like they're not humans. I'd like to think both species are smart enough to figure that out. 

So, like I said. I don't subscribe to dominance theory. And I agree with datacan--for the most part, I think it has really evolved away from some of the earlier techniques. I have nothing personally against people who do use it, including Cesar Millan, unless it results in extreme and/or prolonged harm to the dog or human. But I do have a huge issue with dog owners who can't bother to educate themselves about dog training, other than to watch a couple shows about dogs with severe behavioral problems, completely unlike anything they're seeing in their own dog. And, while I admit this is a bit of an unfair generalization, in my experience those are usually the people who are using dominance as the explanation for everything their dog does (when it's more likely boredom, stress, or fear), without fully understanding the implications of being alpha/leader/whatever you want to call it. Obviously I'm not seeing things like this here, but I have seen it out in the general dog-owning public. And also frequently from people who don't even own a dog.

Of course, I also see plenty of people who just let their dog run willy-nilly ("Har-har, dogs will be dogs!"). They drive me crazy too.

ETA: I'd also just like to note that I don't always think positive-reinforcement-only is the best way either. I've used negative reinforcement to stop some truly stubborn and pushy behaviors of Jasper's. Particularly jumping. Using positive reinforcement, I could never get him to uncouple the negative behavior (jumping) from the reward for the good behavior (getting paws off the person). Eventually he thought the whole process (jump, off, pat on the head) was what I wanted him to do, and then the jump itself became its own reward. Negative reinforcement is what cured him of that particular trick. It's all about doing what works best for you, your dog, and your particular situation.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Love your work RR. Great thread. 8) 

I guess I am somewhat like you in as far as, I have my methods, but nothing is carved in stone and if it makes sense will often alter my approach. I also use positive and occasionally negative reinforcement. It also depends on what I am trying to achieve. 

I still believe in an Alpha Role, but not an Alpha Roll


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