# When to be concerned re: development



## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

Our 16 week V has always been small. He is currently 22lbs, but his front legs seem very short and his leg joints are very pronounced. Our vet office has one vet who thinks he may have dwarfism and one who just wants to wait and see I suppose that it doesn't matter, but we got the dog to run so this could be a big concern. (Also I can't imagine a second V puppy at this point! But I do want my big V running buddy. That was the whole point...)

Regardless, he's part of the family, but it would be nice to understand whether and when to worry. We'd also want to tell the breeders, of course, but don't want to be concerned prematurely. Admittedly, we're just judging him based on pics we've seen online. Any thoughts?


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## armgwag (Sep 22, 2017)

I would encourage you to speak to your breeder. Ask he or she is they have seen this before, my breeder was surprisingly knowledgeable about growth and development. I'm sure one of the tenured forum members may have more advice.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

From the owners I've spoken with, their pups with dwarfism still run, and enjoy all things other vizslas do.
Is your puppy any relation to Teals Milo?


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## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

Thanks for the comments. I don't believe there's any relation. The concern about running is just about long-term effects from long runs, but it's good to hear that it maybe isn't an issue. We'll certainly do more digging if it turns out to be dwarfism. He's happy and otherwise healthy, so we'll deal with the curveball if necessary. It's just funny because we went with a V specifically because we wanted a bigger dog and a training companion. Life...


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

You can type dwarfism in the search bar.
And the other posts on it should come up.
I also believe a person at New Hope vizsla rescue, has done some research on it. You could reach out to them, for any questions you have. I believe there are two types of dwarfism.


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

You should definitely contact the breeder, and with better pics.

What are you feeding and how often? And who's the breeder?

When they're young, they often look "funny", the chances of a quality breeder with a well know rep breeding puppies with this..although possible, are low. Also, if the dog actually does have some physical impairment that interferes with it's intended purpose, a quality breeder should offer a refund or replacement.


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## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

Thanks. We'll monitor and reach out to the breeder. He's eating about 1 3/4 cups of Acana puppy divided between three feedings. (I'm a bit loathe to mention the breeder just because of the nature of the internet and (mis)information). He's a great pup. We just want to make sure that we don't (A) worry unnecessarily or (B) miss something that we could be addressing. 

And, just because who doesn't like V pics, I've attached two more. The first shows his leg "issue" pretty well.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

He is very cute.
By the first picture, its time to call your breeder. Your regular vet needs to also give you a referral, to a orthopedic specialist. Its only because it takes a specialist, to get a confirmed diagnosis.

Every breeder is great, when things go right. It's when something goes wrong, you find out who is really a good breeder.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Just as reference picture.
This is Shine at 16 weeks. Not a great picture, but a good one for showing the length of legs at that age. 
If your on Instagram, look up Gatsby_the_vizsla
He's a wonderful vizsla that has dwarfism.


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## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

Thanks for the picture for comparison. Hunter has always been small, but that's striking to see! Our vet isn't particularly familiar with Vizslas, which is why I wanted to post some pics here. We have calls in.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I had wondered if it was from the pituitary gland, but that type of dwarfism doesn't show up till 3-4 months.
If he was always small, I'm guessing he was born with it. I would have thought, the breeder would noticed the difference in him. Maybe he just thought, he was the runt of the litter.


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## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

Yeah, he was under 7 lbs at 8 weeks... I figure thats tiny. We're trying to gather info and not assume the worst, but...


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## Gabica (Jan 20, 2018)

small size alone would not be the worry, some of the Westminster BOB winners actually started as the smallest in their litter, it is much more the structure and move u should watch. do u have any other vizsla people around you u could compare notes with in person? just in order to have more data points, i would seek for that too. breeder hospitals/vets can also tell you whether it is just a smaller size and goofy puppy posture (latter one happens often too).


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## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

Thanks gabica- you're right. It is about more than size, and thats good to keep in mind. Both his parents were about 45 pounds, so the concern is as much about his leg shape as it is about his overall size. We're getting X-rays and are reaching out to the breeder. I hope it all works out, but there are certainly much bigger issues that people are dealing with in life.


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## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

A bit of an update. Xrays show an angular limb deformity in both legs. The growth plates are all still open, but one bone in each leg is just growing faster than the other. It looks like it isn't dwarfism, but still a problem. Now we wait for the ortho...


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Hopefully it doesn't cause him any mobility issues, or possibly something that can correct itself over time.
Did you hear back from your breeder?


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## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

We'll see what the ortho says. Dr. Google is not kind (but she never is). Worst financial case, corrective surgery on both legs at great expense. Worst emotional case, return the pup and start over. It sound like really rolling the dice w/o surgery. This can develop into a debilitating problem if the bones do not correct. But all the growth plates are still open, so who knows. It is just a big gamble financially and for the pup. 



We contacted the breeder earlier and need to follow up now that we have a diagnosis. The breeder indicated that they'd handle the issue as they should, but you never know until it comes to that.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I've had orthopedic vets give me better news, than what I was hoping for.
So keep your fingers crossed, until then.


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## Gabica (Jan 20, 2018)

just wanted to tell how much i admire that you make all these steps to figure what is going on. shows how much you care, really a great hope for your pup. keep us posted please.


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## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

Thanks. We're holding out hope for the best! I'll keep updating the thread.


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## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

The Ortho thinks it may be panostetis, which frankly makes no sense, but we'll see. He has none of the indicators (pain, limping, loss of appetite, etc). It'd be great if it ended up being treatable, but I'm not holding out hope. We'll try meds and limited activity for 7-10 days (good luck!) and see what happens...

The breeder will work with us whether we decide to return him or not, so that's nice.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

It would be great, if that's what it is. 
Was he able to explain why he shows no pain?
But I will say, some of these dogs have a high pain tolerance.


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## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

We just got the prognosis from the vet end of day. I'm going to ask a ton of questions tomorrow. I'll trust the orthos's read of the X-ray, but it certainly doesnt show physically like all explanations I've seen (including the structural deformity since we picked him up). Still crossing our fingers. There is hope at least.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Did the ortho only look at xrays, and not examine your pup?
I'm bad about throwing tons of questions at vets, but certainly know they have more knowledge than me.
I just like to have a full understanding of a diagnoses, and treatment. 

When one of my fosters dogs required hip surgery. We saw two different orthopedic surgeons, that specialize in hips. Each recommend a different surgery. You would have though I started world war 3, when I question on why. They shared their findings with other ortho vets around the world, to back up their prognosis. 
One of the surgeons will probably never speak to me again, as I went with the other surgeon. I am happy how things turned out, as Abbey has 90% use of her leg. This is after she was unable to use it, for the first year of her life.


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## mlg1900 (Jun 12, 2013)

Hello,
So sorry you are having to deal with health issues. It is never easy. I just wanted to ask if you are feeding "large breed" puppy food? I have read before about it causing growth issues when it is fed to "non" large breeds. Vizslas are not large breeds but for some reason I see a lot of owners feeding it to their dogs. They even say the vets recommend it. Well, I was hoping that would be just an easy fix / idea. 

I also wanted to say that both of my dogs were about the same weight as yours at that age. One was about 5 pounds and the other about 7 pounds when we brought them home and the one was 18 pounds at 16 weeks and the other was about 24 pounds at 16 weeks. So the weight seems fine to me. 

I sure hope you get some answers. And I hope there is an easy fix for your sweet puppy!


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## midwestV (May 15, 2018)

I thought that I would check back in with this to again say thanks and to fill out the story for people who might have similar issues in the future.

His xrays still show inflammation at the joints, and the vet thinks this is causing the bending. We moved him from orijen puppy to the large puppy version to try to slow down growth to let the short bone catch up a bit. I don't know if that is the right thinking, but there is conflicted advice everywhere. (We were on acana puppy and then orijen puppy for the first 4.5 months.)

I don't think that things are getting better, so we'll have to decide whether to spend more money trying to get a diagnosis or whether to just monitor and treat issues as they arise. It looks like the most common option would be to cut through the short bone in each leg to allow the other bone to straighten out. That would close in on $10k of expenses and be putting a dog through over a month of no activity on either front leg. That cost and burden seems too high, so we're trying to treat this with antiinflammatories to see if that helps. This may not be a good long-term approach, but we really can't justify that expense at this point, and although the breeder would refund us our money if we returned him, we presume that taking that approach would be an effective death sentence. We're sort of just crossing our fingers, doing what we can, and enjoying a fun pup. 

In any event, he's a happy pup, and we're happy to keep him as a "rescue" if nothing else. We recently adopted a weim from a rescue to fill in as the "running dog," so that both saves another dog and relieves the internal battle over our vizsla's suitability for running in the future.


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## 2Gingers (Jan 25, 2018)

Thank you for the update. It sounds like my previous dog, a Labrador, had a similar situation. He was on Rimadyl for 6 months of his puppyhood (6 mo.-1 year). His bones were growing too rapidly, and his body couldn't keep up. The issue actually began in his jaw (craniomandibular osteopathy) and then showed up in one of his front legs. One day, a knot appeared on his leg. We thought he had been bitten by a snake, but it turned out to be swelling due to joint pain. The pain meds helped tremendously. The prognosis at the time (15 years ago) was bleak: euthanasia (because if it could not be corrected, he would always be in pain), surgery (which was expensive and offered no guarantee), or pain meds until he reached full maturity and "hope" he outgrew the problem. We were very fortunate that the latter was successful. He went on to live to be 14 years old and only had joint/hip issues in the last 2 years of his life. I am hopeful for you and your pup as well!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

It sounds like you are doing everthing you can afford to do. I don't know your breeder. So I don't know if returning him, would mean the end of his life. 
Its the reason some vizsla puppies go to a Vizsla rescue. Their medical expenses are just to high for their owners.
He sounds like he's happy, and loved. Unless things change, I wouldn't be able to give him up either.


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## JEM (6 mo ago)

I know this is an older thread but I’m curious if you could share your outcome if possible. We have a 4 month old with what appears to be a similar condition. We have also been to vet and orthopedic but have not gotten any kind of clear answer.

Ours has similar swolen joints with open growth plates. No pain and very happy generally.

Very curious how your situation turned out.

Thanks,
Jack


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