# Snake Avoidance



## gzagar (Jul 12, 2016)

There has been an alarming increase in rattlesnake sightings and bites in Northern California...typically these don't start till July/August. Likely some relation to all the rain we had and the effect on their food supplies. I was wondering:
*How exposed are you to rattlesnakes where you wander off leash?
*Have you been through a snake avoidance class or techniques?
*Has your dog been bitten and how long do you have to get to a vet?
*etc.

Just throwing it out there for some help before we become a statistic
Thanks!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Mine have been through snake avoidance training, and also get a yearly Rattle snake vaccine.
While nothing is a 100%, I feel like its best to be proactive.


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## gzagar (Jul 12, 2016)

Thanks texasred


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## vdogdad (Apr 15, 2013)

Please check with your vet that they actually stock the anti-venom...you may be surprised with what you learn...we were. We live in rural central Florida which is prime Eastern Diamondback habitat...here it's only a matter of "when" we will have encounters. This is our primary "worry" about protecting our curious red hunters! Our female has proudly delivered two Coral Snakes to us, while miraculously avoiding a bite!


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Leading veterinary schools (like Davis) don't recommend the so-called rattlesnake "vaccine" as there is no evidence to suggest it works.

Using it and then taking extra risks based on the false assumption that it is offering any protection seems unwise to me.

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Yes, I know not everyone is on board the snake vaccine. 
And I don't put my dogs in places, just because I use it, and have them go through snake avoidance. 
The fact is I live in Texas, and we have snakes. I can be proactive as possible. Or do nothing, and hope for the best. 
I would rather be proactive. 
I know people who have lost dogs to rattlesnake bites. Those same people now use the vaccine, and had a dogs recover after a rattlesnake bite. While it's possible the vaccinated dog, may have recovered without the vaccine. It still leads me to keep my dogs vaccinations up to date.


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## NutterButter (Mar 5, 2016)

Our Vizsla Sadie hates snakes and will hide in the house for a full day if she sees a snake of any kind on one of our walks. We had a Beagle mix we put through snake avoidance training. The rattlesnakes were held under white buckets until released as part of the training. She was very diligent about avoiding white buckets after that.


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## MikoMN (Nov 29, 2016)

Around here they are so few and far between I don't know anyone who has encountered one. Garter snakes, however, were Miko's standard prey, and treat as a puppy last fall. Because of this I am kind of worried about when we take him to the mountains of Utah this summer. 

This leads me to my next question. What do you do in case of a bite?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Anida (Jun 10, 2016)

MikoMN said:


> Around here they are so few and far between I don't know anyone who has encountered one. Garter snakes, however, were Miko's standard prey, and treat as a puppy last fall. Because of this I am kind of worried about when we take him to the mountains of Utah this summer.
> 
> This leads me to my next question. What do you do in case of a bite?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Whereabouts in Utah? Southern Utah you'll have to worry about it but if you're up North only a couple of other places (.i.e. Jordanelle Reservoir -- it's a protected area for them there and is the only place I've regularly seen them in abundance).


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

texasred said:


> Yes, I know not everyone is on board the snake vaccine.
> And I don't put my dogs in places, just because I use it, and have them go through snake avoidance.
> The fact is I live in Texas, and we have snakes. I can be proactive as possible. Or do nothing, and hope for the best.
> I would rather be proactive.
> I know people who have lost dogs to rattlesnake bites. Those same people now use the vaccine, and had a dogs recover after a rattlesnake bite. While it's possible the vaccinated dog, may have recovered without the vaccine. It still leads me to keep my dogs vaccinations up to date.


No Veterinary Schools are "onboard" with this so-called "vaccine" because there is no evidence that it works (and it involves shooting a dog with a toxin).

I don't see how using something that doesn't work is "pro-active." It is just flushing money down a drain (while potentially harming one's dog in the process).

Most dogs given proper veterinary care after a rattlesnake bite recover. Getting this "shot" does not improve the odds, nor does it change the treatment.

The manufacturer is marketing something that simply doesn't work, and whose claims are absolutely unsubstantiated.

Snake-oil (not snake "vaccine").

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Everyone is entitled to do their own research, and form their own opinion.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

texasred said:


> Everyone is entitled to do their own research, and form their own opinion.


Correct, however, everyone should be aware that leading veterinary schools have looked into this product and they reject the efficacy of this untested and unproven shot. 

Those considering using it should know the shot has been questioned as potentially killing dogs that have received it. 

There is NO SCIENCE to support the Red Rocks product. None at all. No efficacy studies. Nothing.

Bill


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

Spy Car said:


> ...
> I don't see how using something that doesn't work is "pro-active." ...
> 
> ... Getting this "shot" does not improve the odds...
> ...


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I wasn't going to respond to this, as it just keeps the debate going.
I've got better things to do, than argue on a forum.

I believe the study by Red Rock was conducted on rabbits, not dogs. That's if I remember right, and not stating it as fact.

There has been a small studies on horses. 
They tested titer levels of horses that have been bitten, and ones given the vaccine. 

In conclusion, while horses develop anti-Crotalus atrox antibody titers to the commercially available rattlesnake toxoid vaccine, they are not as high as those that develop after natural rattlesnake envenomation. The humoral immune responses of individual horses to the vaccine and natural envenomation varied greatly. The commercially available rattlesnake toxoid vaccine was safe when administered to late-gestation mares, and there is evidence that colostral transfer of venom antibodies will occur. Based on existing literature, circulating titers may offer some protection against the systemic effects of envenomation; however, the ability of these titers to protect horses from the adverse effects of envenomation has not been tested in vivo.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Bob Engelhardt said:


> Spy Car said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Spy Car said:


> There is no evidence the shot has any positive effect. The burden of proof to show efficacy is on the manufacturer.
> 
> Otherwise one could claim "voodoo incantations" are a pro-active measure against rattlesnake bites.
> 
> ...


Why do you care? 
If TexasRed wants to use the vaccine, so be it. You've stated your side, and people can form their own opinions on the effectiveness of vaccines and do their own research. If TexasRed wants to use it then go right ahead. Its none of my business. Nor yours, really.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

MikoMN said:


> This leads me to my next question. What do you do in case of a bite?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I remember reading somewhere to carry some Benadryl and if the dog gets bit, to administer the Benadryl to help with the swelling... Regardless, I carry Benadryl in the truck for this reason. 

Note. (Disclaimer) I am NOT a vet. I am NOT affiliated with a University Vet School. This is something I've heard. Do your own due diligence.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

v-john said:


> Spy Car said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you care?
> ...


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Spy Car said:


> v-john said:
> 
> 
> > It's a discussion forum John, and when misinformation gets spread that can potentially harm or kill dogs, and without question hurts people's pocketbooks with zero benefits established by medical evidence, I think it is better to bring up the problems rather than see people get snookered by what appears to me to be a fraud.
> ...


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

v-john said:


> Spy Car said:
> 
> 
> > I am quite aware it is a discussion forum. I read that when I clicked in.
> ...


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

So you did research, and formed your own opinion. But don't feel others have the same right. 

I think that's your only problem when you post on the forum. Your need to feel right above all else. Keep spewing the same thing over, and over again. Until nothing is learned, and it just snowballs.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

texasred said:


> So you did research, and formed your own opinion. But don't feel others have the same right.
> 
> I think that's your only problem when you post on the forum. Your need to feel right above all else. Keep spewing the same thing over, and over again. Until nothing is learned, and it just snowballs.


Wrong Deb, and please refrain from intentionally misstating my position. 

People certainly ought to research this product before injecting a toxin into their dogs that has no demonstrated efficacy. They will find its use has no evidence-based support from Veterinary Schools or experts in the field.

Please link to the (non-existant) "rabbit study" you alluded to earlier.

You are posting misinformation. I'm attempting to address the facts and an not "spewing" anything except the scientific position on this shot. 

You should quit with the personal attacks just because someone reasons an issue differently than you do. Especially when the leading Veterinary Schools conclude this shot has no proven effacasy and recommend against its use.

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I don't care if someone has a different opinion. Its a forum, and believe it or not, its expected. I could keep going back and forth with you. Or have a drink, and watch the grass grow. Right now the latter is looking pretty good. 

There's a good chance I'm going to have to clean up this thread later. So I'm going to enjoy the rest of my evening outdoors.


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## MikoMN (Nov 29, 2016)

*Ahhh Science....*

I'm not trying to fuel any fires here, but I did notice everyone agrees on one thing. Do your own research. I also noticed that there were no links to any studies from either side of the opinions. Just because someone speaks louder, or more forceful, or more often, it doesn't make them right unless they can show me WHY they have that opinion. For anyone who might be searching this subject with the intent to decide what is best for their individual situation and dog, here are a few links. None of them necessarily show my viewpoint. However, I tried my best to not pull something from the "www.IHATEALLVACCINES.com" type websites. I find them too full of opinion, while never actually giving sources. Sources are important to me. Quite frankly, I haven't found enough actual evidence either way to form an opinion yet. 

People seem to say, that since there is no proof it works, that must mean it doesn't work. That is not true. Just because you can't PROVE something, doesn't mean the opposite HAS to be true. An example of this is when my kids sneak cookies. I didn't see them, I don't have their stomachs pumped to get the cookie remains. I really have no proof that they did it, but let's be honest.....I know they did. No proof, but it is still true. Don't tell me that "science" shows that it doesn't work without giving me a legit research paper on it. Not an expert opinion, but research. That is science. But it is also a fallacy to say that it does work without evidence as well. ---Thus the reason I don't yet know which I believe. 

*Expert Opinion(Dr. Schultz heads up the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin-Madison School of Veterinary Medicine): *http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/11/08/rattlesnake-vaccine.aspx

American Journal of Veterinary *Research*: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.76.3.272

*Expert Opinion (University of California, Davis Veterinary Medicine)*: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/whatsnew/article.cfm?id=1883

*Opinion: *http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...cinate-your-gun-dog-hunts-rattlesnake-country

*National Guidelines, panel of experts forming an opinion. (American Animal Hospital Association’s (AAHA)):* https://www.aaha.org/public_documents/professional/guidelines/caninevaccineguidelines.pdf (page 8)


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

v-john said:


> I remember reading somewhere to carry some Benadryl and if the dog gets bit, to administer the Benadryl to help with the swelling... Regardless, I carry Benadryl in the truck for this reason.
> 
> Note. (Disclaimer) I am NOT a vet. I am NOT affiliated with a University Vet School. This is something I've heard. Do your own due diligence.


yes, I've heard that too, although we don't have rattlesnakes here in the UK we do have adders, nowhere near as venomous or numerous as their cousins. I have heard first hand off two people of the effectiveness of benadryl as an emergency procedure after an adder bite.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

Spy Car said:


> v-john said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not "berating" anyone John. I simply feel the shot is ineffective, which is in keeping with the position of leading Veterinary Schools (and my personal veterinarian).
> ...


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

v-john said:


> Spy Car said:
> 
> 
> > This is wonderful that you feel that way. But each and every time that TexasRed posts you feel the need to follow it up with another combative post. State your opinion, let her state hers and that's that.
> ...


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

MikoMN has the best post. MikoMN actually cites sources instead of expecting everyone to take opinion for fact. Thanks for posting Miko.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

MikoMN said:


> I'm not trying to fuel any fires here, but I did notice everyone agrees on one thing. Do your own research. I also noticed that there were no links to any studies from either side of the opinions. Just because someone speaks louder, or more forceful, or more often, it doesn't make them right unless they can show me WHY they have that opinion. For anyone who might be searching this subject with the intent to decide what is best for their individual situation and dog, here are a few links. None of them necessarily show my viewpoint. However, I tried my best to not pull something from the "www.IHATEALLVACCINES.com" type websites. I find them too full of opinion, while never actually giving sources. Sources are important to me. Quite frankly, I haven't found enough actual evidence either way to form an opinion yet.
> 
> People seem to say, that since there is no proof it works, that must mean it doesn't work. That is not true. Just because you can't PROVE something, doesn't mean the opposite HAS to be true. An example of this is when my kids sneak cookies. I didn't see them, I don't have their stomachs pumped to get the cookie remains. I really have no proof that they did it, but let's be honest.....I know they did. No proof, but it is still true. Don't tell me that "science" shows that it doesn't work without giving me a legit research paper on it. Not an expert opinion, but research. That is science. But it is also a fallacy to say that it does work without evidence as well. ---Thus the reason I don't yet know which I believe.
> 
> ...


Two of these links are from questionable sources. The "Feild and Stream" article (that you rightly label "opinion") is exactly the sort of low-quality journalism that allows outfits like Red Rocks to promote shots that are completely unproven to work in the popular press. The author has no expertise and accepts the manufacturer's claims with no sense of skepticism or demands for proof.

The other link is that to the Mercola website, which is the biggest source of "woo" and medical pseudo-science on the interwebs. The "expert" offers nothing but opinion.

The real experts cited, UC Davis Veterinary School, doesn't recommend or even stock the short because it has not demonstrated efficacy. Nor does Colorado State Veterinary Teaching Hospital:

*Currently, the VTH does not provide or recommend the rattlesnake vaccine due to a lack of
evidence of its efficacy in our region. Vaccinated dogs seen at the VTH have the same symptoms
and need the same care as unvaccinated dogs. A possible danger of the vaccine is a sense of security
that may delay care if owners assume their dog will be fine because it has been vaccinated.
All animals bit by a rattlesnake should receive medical attention as soon as possible.*

http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/Documents/caring-magazine-2011-spring.pdf

I'll put my trust in the reason-based conclusions of leading Veterinary Schools over promoters of woo and pseudoscience every time.

Bill


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

*Enough*

This thread is closed


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