# Training Kennel or No?



## V-Diddy (Jan 27, 2015)

Hi everyone. I am pretty new to posting on the boards and I wanted to ask the hunting guys and gals a few questions. PLease bear with me because I am going to try and show you my faults as an owner in the attempt to make Pre's (Prefontaine) life better. 

I bought a V for a companion and so that my daughter (a teenage XC runner) would have a running partner on her long solo runs (of up to 12 miles). I am a hunter (deer, squirrel, and rabbit) and a fisherman (Pre goes with me on my 14 footer) but I have no (zero) bird hunting experience. I thought, like many a fool before me, that I could train Pre to hunt and we would have a marvelous time in the fields of eastern Indiana. Here is staunch American upland bird hunter with Browning 20ga in hand and rock solid pointing V awaiting command. Yeah, go ahead and laugh. 

Imagine my surprise when I found out that training a bird dog was a very different animal than training a rabbit dog. This is my main failing #1 if you excuse naivety. Where I live I don't have the ability to keep live birds and with 4 active teenagers, a full-time job, and going to college part-time I don't have time to train Pre to hunt even if I knew what I was doing. Please, do not confuse that with "I do not have time for Pre." He goes as I go whenever possible and in a 6 person household he is rarely without companionship. The problem is that the closest training area for us is an hour drive away and I don't have live birds nor can I keep them. Well, enough with excuses.

My primary question is whether I should send him to be trained in a kennel. The reason that I ask is twofold. #1 I don't know if I can do without him for a couple of months and #2 I don't know how he will do without me for a couple of months. At 15 months he is still pointing at robins in my back yard and I have time most weekends in season to take him out to the field. I think he needs it and I definitely want to hunt with him. Still, I am fearful that the dog I send away will not be the same when he comes home because he will feel abandoned...and I really don't trust anyone with my boy. Also, if Pre doesn't hunt it really doesn't matter to me in the grand scheme of things. I like to hunt and I think it would improve his quality of life (does that sound weird?) and any past-time that increases my ability to give him exercise and hang out with me is what I am looking for. Still, Pre is already my hiking, fishing and hanging out buddy. We don't need bird hunting but I think it is what he would enjoy the most. 

Am I being stupid? Is kenneling him for training worth it? What other questions should I ask? Please let me know your opinions. I am torn between training Pre to do what he is instinctually geared to do and worry about him being all alone... 

The training kennel I am looking at is Boberosa Gun Dogs in Albion, Indiana. Any information on them would be nice as well. 

Oh, and there is this whole, "Vizsla's are soft dogs" thing that really angers me. I don't want to perpetuate that idea. Watching Pre in the field I think he could out-hunt a lot of dogs and "soft" never has come to mind where he is concerned. I would love to let Pre show up some GSP's in the area and let them find other issues with V's, but he has to be trained to do that. 

I don't know. What do you all think? "Professional" training or just let Pre be a bad-ass buddy? 

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

Hi V-Diddy, welcome to the forum . With my two. (wirehaired vizslas) training them to hunt wasn't an issue, they already have the instinct to hunt and point birds so I suppose the main area is how to channel that instinct. How is Pre on recall and stop?


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

For any newbie that has tried out hunting, nothing you said sounds at all weird! As someone who had never hunted and didn't know anyone else that had either I went the route of the hunt test. I have some of the same excuses you do for why her training is currently stalled, but joining a NAVHDA chapter near me initially solved the logistical issues of access to birds, training grounds, and the knowledge of experienced individuals to help me along the way. Check it out.

Search the forum for posts from Meandmy3. They took their dog to a trainer in Wisconsin that is very experienced with Vizslas. They haven't been active lately, but if you PM them they may respond. 

When knowledgeable folks describe vizslas and some other pointing breeds as soft they are in no way insulting the ability of the dogs in the field. A dog being soft refers more to the way you go about training them and means you have a dog that is more sensitive to their handler. This can be good and bad. Trainers with more hardheaded dogs have to use heavier handed methods to get their dog to do the task and these dogs can handle those methods. With these breeds being more popular, those methods became canon. They then used these methods with soft dogs and when they didn't work, they criticized the dog rather than the method. So look for a trainer that has experience with vizslas and doesn't have a stigma about soft dogs. Vizslas break the mold in many wonderful ways as you've seen and it's more than worth it to adapt your training plan to the way they think. 

Look into the West/Gibbons method, Mo Lindley's training methods or the blog Steadywithstyle.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

_Is kenneling him for training worth it? 
_
Yes, and No.
Yes, if you actually plan on keeping up with the training, and hunting the dog.
You can't have a trainer just start a dog, don't keep training, and then go hunt it months later.
Yes, if you find a trainer that has plenty of experience with the breed, and they have plenty of happy clients. If a trainer washes out to many promising dogs, its a trainer problem, not a dog problem.
No, if any of the above statements don't fit your situation.


_Oh, and there is this whole, "Vizsla's are soft dogs" thing that really angers me. I don't want to perpetuate that idea. Watching Pre in the field I think he could out-hunt a lot of dogs and "soft" never has come to mind where he is concerned. I would love to let Pre show up some GSP's in the area and let them find other issues with V's, but he has to be trained to do that. 
_
While a vizsla can be a powerhouse in the field, they are still soft (when compared to other breeds) on training. Its the reason we pick a trainer very carefully. A trainer can quite frankly make, or break your dog. If a inexperienced person messes up your dog, plan on paying a pro to try and fix them. I say try, because they can make no promises, and some dogs never recover from it.

Even having your dog at the trainers for 3-4 months, is only a started dog.
It still has plenty to learn, and in no way is a finished, or seasoned dog. That takes time, experience, and years. You don't take a freshly started dog out hunting with a bunch of your buddies, and their dogs. Your just asking for things to go wrong, and it could be your dogs first and last hunt ever, when they do. You hunt them alone, and make it about them learning, and becoming confident in the field. You only add other people to the hunt as the dog progresses.

I can't tell you the amount of times I've had a young dog bust a large covey of quail, and take no shot, or correct the dog for it. Shooting would let the dog think what it did was okay. Just walking the to a different part of the field was correction enough. Not all hunters are willing to do that for someone else dog, or take turns shooting pointed birds only.

Helping guide upland hunts, I've seen plenty of clients dogs that they thought were the best thing since slice bread. Some of the dogs are excellent, and a joy to watch in the field. Some are good dogs, and I enjoy those too. Others make you grit your teeth, as they take out birds another dog has pointed. Or even try to take a bird from another dogs mouth, during a retrieve. Those things are not the dogs fault, its putting the dog in a situation that its not ready to handle, or a owner that doesn't/cant control a dog in the field. Its their hunt, so I will offer to put my dog up, or they can put theirs up. But thats the only two choices.

Hunting IS NOT a dog competition. Hunt test and Field Trials are competitions. One is pass or fail held to a standard, the other is a true competition of what dog had a better run on a given day.


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## V-Diddy (Jan 27, 2015)

Sorry it took so long to get back with you all. I am working nights and this is my first time back on the computer. I'll try to respond back in order and try to hit everything, but first, I want to thank you all for your comments. 

Harrigab- Pre needs both stop (whoa) and recall training revisited since winter is over. Inside his is excellent on both but outside he has started breaking on both. I have four children (all teenagers) and a wife who think a dog that does not listen is a "stupid dog." (although they love him to death. So, Pre has figured them all out. Its pretty much with all commands for them outside, like on lead for me he heels but for my wife and daughters he pulls. Command word choice and consistency is a big issue with the other members of my family. I say "Here, boy" once and wait with treats if need be. They say "come," or "come here," or in the case of one daughter "get back here." AND then they chase him as if they have never seen him run. : I almost yelled at them when my daughter said he needs a shock collar so he comes back.  I told her I would get him one but only if they allowed me to buy two, one for them and one for him. My plan was to watch them "train" him and when they said or did something wrong then I would shock them. So, now he knows the commands, but he knows that in certain circumstances that he does not need to follow them. So, yeah, umm, I'm talking about hunting him and this weekend my plan is to get him into a field outside and work basic obedience. 

einspanner: Thanks for the clarification on the "soft dog" issue. I think some other (non-V) hunters need you to explain that to them. I have seen some describe what you are talking about but others make the statement as if the do does not have a toughness in the field that other dogs have. As far as training, I actually have the Perfect Start videos and started using some basic training tactics in it...but one of the first things that they said was "if you don't have live birds" then you are pretty much wasting your time. Well, I am probably not going to have live birds to train with near my house for at least three more years. Not making excuses but that is the reality for me at this time. My hope was that I could get him finished on basic commands and then work birds somewhere every couple of weeks or so but after watching the video I became frustrated and kind of gave up on hunting him. In fact, I just watched the first part of the West/Gibbons and right off the bat there are birds, and launchers involved. These are the things that really made me give up the first time and I thought that perhaps if I got him started then we could keep current and get better by regular field work. When I checked into the NAVHDA the closest chapter is in Indy, but I am going to check for similar groups in my area because that is a great place to start.

TexasRed: I plan on hunting him weekly if I get to retire in the next few months and every few weeks if not. I am buying a membership with a sportsman's group that has on-site bird hunting as well as a very nice range that I will take advantage of. We already go to DNR lands most weekends that weather permits. So, the only real difference is that we would be hunting instead of hiking when the season permits. As to having patience enough not to shoot when he makes mistakes, that is not a problem. I am such a poor hunter that I tell my wife I am going to hang out in the woods and take my gun in case an animal attacks me. Squirrel can be vicious. Honestly, though, the time out in the field with Pre is more about hanging out with my buddy than bagging an animal. That won't change and I really don't have any other friends so having someone shooting over him other than my dad is not an issue either and if dad won't listen then he won't get to go hunting with us. 

So, here is the one thing that is positive about my training area. We have a park two blocks from my house that always has a large area to work with him. This is where I do off-leash recall and whoa training but sometimes there are just too many distractions like little girls playing softball. I could probably get him to hold for anything in the world other than young kids. I've never seen a dog that loves young people the way that he does. 

Tomorrow or Sunday I am going to take him to the kennel to check it out. It is $2500 and 3-5 months to get him started and they are charging $50 just to check him out and see if they can work with him (no-brainer for me). Before I decide to do this I am going to ask them how many V's they have worked with and also for contact information of those owners. Here is the link to their page: http://www.boberosagundogs.com/

Thanks for the advice and giving me some more information to think about! 

Btw, here is a picture of us on a hike last fall.


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## v-john (Jan 27, 2013)

A couple of random thoughts. 

- Who did your dog come from? Just curious. 
- Just from a quick look at the website... There are a couple of things I didn't care for. Personally, I want someone who not only specializes in the breed, but specializes in pointing breeds. I know that pointer folks will force break dogs, and will work flushers and retrievers but it seems to me that their emphasis is more on flushers and retrievers. Especially since they raise springers. But that's just me, I don't know them from Adam. One thing that I see people do is emphasize the location of the trainer. Wouldn't you want to send your dog to the best you could, regardless of location? Another thing I didn't like is that their time frame. 2500 for 3-5 months. This can cause problems down the road, especially if guys try and hurry the dog along to whatever the goal is. 
I **** sure don't like them charging 50 bucks to "evaluate" the dog. That's just me. 

It depends on what you are wanting out of the dog, when the training is complete. Do you want a fully broke dog? One that breaks at the flush? Do you simply want to get in front of the dog? 
This is also something that needs to be discussed with the trainer. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see what your goal was. 

When I get to a point that I want that the dog at, maintenance of the training isn't that bad. But I broke mine out myself. 
Most trainers want to spend time with the owner teaching them and training them. So they don't unravel all of the training that they did.  

It just depends on what you want for a dog. If you want a hunting dog, or a broke trial dog. 

And Softness, is the amount of pressure that they can handle in training. It can be anything. I have a dog (picture attached) who is as soft as any dog I've had, but clearly, he will run through just about anything. But training is a pain just because of his soft temperament. He's by far my best pheasant/prairie chicken dog, and I haven't put a bird out for him in years. He's good at what he does and understands what I want from him. I try and hunt mine as much as I can. I use e-collars and if used properly, can be a great tool. But that's a whole different ball game. 

I wouldn't have any problem sending a dog to a trainer, but it would have to be the RIGHT trainer. But that's just me.


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## browndogbrownguy (Nov 10, 2015)

Here is my experience. Maybe this will be helpful to make your decision. I started a thread sometime ago asking if 18 months was a bit too old to introduce a dog to hunting. I had no experience with hunting and had no intention of hunting my Vizsla. I had never even shot a gun in my life. But, I like the woods and slowly got interested in hunting. I panicked thinking it was too late when I started exploring hunting. Sent him to a "highly recommended" gun dog trainer. It wasn`t encouraging news in the beginning as the dog trainer told me after a couple of sessions that he was disappointed as my Vizsla had no prey drive, was afraid of the birds. etc. Frankly, the dog trainer seemed like he had no patience with the Vizsla, kept on going about how his 6 month old GSP would hunt all day - blah blah. He also wasn`t taking my phone calls. I got annoyed after 2 and a half weeks, and went and got him back. My vizsla was stressed, he had lost hair around his paws with standing in wet conditions. 

Forward 3 months - He`s a hunter now - no doubt. Not tested with Grouse yet, but he can pick Phesansts very well. He`s steady to shot too. Remember all it took was 2 weeks, and that too when he was 18 months. The dog trainer himself didn`t do much. But - my Vizsla got introduced to live birds, and sometimes that`s all it takes. The birds teach the dog. I had most of the ground work done already - heel, still, back, look. etc They already have the instinct and they just need to connect things in heir head - and they do.

They are extremely soft dogs - emotionally. Physically they are tough as nails. You need a trainer who understands them. I can`t even raise my voice, I have learnt my lesson regarding that. But I`m human, I tend to make mistakes. 

Here are some thoughts. Sending your Vizsla away for 2-3 months might not be a good idea. They need their human family. You need to pick the right gun dog trainer who is experienced with Vizslas. If the trainer has more experience with GSP, I would think again. GSPs are emotionally hardy dogs - Vizslas not so much. I`m not sure how you can get your dog evaluated in a short time - remember the trainer said my Vizsla had no prey drive and was afraid of the birds. Not the case anymore. 

Maybe send him for a short time, see how he handles it and rethink it. Also, definitely get access to live birds. They will train your dog.


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## V-Diddy (Jan 27, 2015)

Hey guys,

I know this post is "dead" by internet standards but I read all of your posts and decided that if I could not do my part then it was not in Pre's best interest to send him to someone else. Pre seems to be happy as things are and there is no reason to put him into a situation that may get him hurt emotionally and/or physically. 

Maybe when the kids graduate in two years I may take him out and see if it is still there, but for now he is the team mascot for baseball, gymnastics, cross country and track and field. He is my wife and daughter's running buddy and my fishing and hunting buddy. I am a little disappointed because I know what he would be capable of from knowing hunting dogs (admittedly not bird dogs) and being in the field with him. Unfortunately, my ignorance and Indiana's blizzard of '78 have impacted this opportunity for him.

Thanks again for you input. It was invaluable in making my decision. 

V-John: Pre's sire is out of Lone Eagle Vizla's (http://www.loneeagledogs.com/) and his dame is out of Teal's Vizsla's (http://www.tealsvizsla.com/pages/about-us-and-our-dogs) in Illinois. 

But...this guy doesn't look too terribly concerned about birds at the moment.


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