# Rattlesnake avoidance training



## sfapsey (Jan 9, 2015)

Hi,

Does anyone have any experience with rattlesnake avoidance training and how effective it is long term? There is an outfit offering it later this month. I just wonder how effective it would be long term or if we would have to repeat this every month or so to be really effective. From what I have read they use training collars along with rattlesnake decoys to modify the dogs behavior.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/07/rattlesnake-adversion-training.html

Well worth it.

RBD


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## Rufus Tiberius (Dec 18, 2012)

I agree with RBD, it is well worth the time spent taking your dog to a rattlesnake avoidance class. RT has had the training and did a repeat a year later to reinforce his avoidance. You should not have to repeat the training every month. After the initial training, a repeat, a year later is recommended. In both of his training sessions they used live rattlesnakes not decoys. They also used an E-collar for the negative reinforcement. The collar was set at its lowest setting and only increased if needed. 

Since RT trains and field trials in areas with large rattlesnake populations, his training has given me some peace of mind that he will avoid the snakes. He also gets a yearly vaccination of anti venom.

Charles


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I know I should feel bad doing this, but we use Cash to checkout the pit blinds in September, before getting in to clean them up. Cash has went through avoidance training, and at the refreshers each year he will not go near a snake. Just the smell of a unseen snake at a distance, will have him hiding behind you. You cant force that dog to look at a snake, much less go near one.

I don't think your going to get that type of training with just using decoy snakes. They need to know by sight, sound, and smell.

It also lasts longer with some dogs, than it does with others.
Don't take it for granted that its going to carry over to the next year. Lucy had to have it redone 2 months later. She didn't put her nose to a snake that she found on her own, but she did try to trail it at a 3 foot distance.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

This is who I have used for the past few years in Texas. The avoidance clinic dates are listed on the website.

http://www.snakebreaker.com/

This is Cash's reaction to a snake at a refresher clinic, and no queues, or negative reinforcement from the ecollar was given. He was just calmly walking Cash to me, but there was a snake purposely hidden on his path to me. The reaction is all Cash.









And then he hides from the snake behind the handler. He's in save me mode.


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## Rufus Tiberius (Dec 18, 2012)

TR, Your pictures show RT's reaction perfectly at his refresher course. Trainer complemented RT on his sense of smell detecting the snakes at a distance then hiding behind the trainer.

You described and showed his reaction way better than I could have. :


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

No need to do it a third time as I did. Two times is plenty.

Vizslas have amazing memories.

RBD


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Help me think through this. I've been in a quandary over rattlesnake aversion training. Just last Friday I discussed it with our fantastic vet (she actually owns our Vs grand-sire, which she imported from an excellent line from Hungary) and I have a couple flyers for different trainers sitting on my desk.

Whats the problem? We live in rattlesnake country, with areas to enjoy that are high risk durning the season, and other recreational areas that are very low risk during the season. We enjoyed the back-trails all winter when the risk was low, but have curtailed the back-trail hikes in favor of park-like recreation areas since the weather turned warm.

I had been planning to do aversion training this Spring. However, a during conversation with a buddy he mentioned that after 3 sessions his (late) dog was ever-after a complete wreck out on trails, because rattlesnake scent was everywhere, and his dog would become unglued.

I mentioned this to my vet (who recommended the training), and she admitted one of her Vizslas had a similar (if milder) problem.

I have a bold young 13 month old male. He's the kind who is as curious as all get out, and the sort who I think could get himself into trouble. I like that boldness. I would not want to turn him into a wreck on trails. Nor do I want a rattlesnake encounter,

I'm feeling torn about what to do, and for now avoiding rattlesnake areas. 

Those that have done rattlesnake training. Do your Vs flip out when they pick up scent? Is it an issue? I'm really torn about this.

Bill


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## sfapsey (Jan 9, 2015)

Thanks for the advice. We signed up for the end of the month. Reading a description on their web site, they do use live rattlesnakes. I will let you guys know how it goes. I am also curious how she will react to the E-collar.


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## tknafox2 (Apr 2, 2013)

In reading these posts, I have developed a question??? 
First... I too had Foxy trained with live snakes, and e-collar ... It was VERY effective, But I believe the E- jolt was significant, as she jumped at least 3 ft in the air when he hit her with the correction. He may have toned it down after her initial reaction. ( I'll never know) 
So... If the trainer uses a brutal jolt, or a mild correction, couldn't that be the possible difference between a dog being overly fearful, and normally cautious???

This will certainly be a question I will ask when I have Fergy trained which is a MUST. Also, Foxy never experienced an e-collar before that day, where as Fergy wears his regularly.
I do believe in the rattle snake anti-venom vaccine, which Fergy will get his second one this year.

I may be using the wrong ID for this vaccination??


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Most dogs handle it well, but there is always the exception to the rule.
June was leery for two weeks after the avoidance training, if I put a check cord on her in the field. She was feeling out if there maybe snakes, or was it safe to venture out away from me. I let her get comfortable at her own speed, and just kept putting the check cord on her to run. She's a thinking dog, and because she had on a check cord during the avoidance training, she put the two together. She had the same training as my other 2 dogs, and they didn't show any signs of acting different.
Cash has leaped sideways in a field after spotting part of a old water hose close to his feet, but then went happily on his way.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

My vet mentioned all her Vs jump sideways when they see a garden hose now.

One thing, several posts have referred to "anti-venom" vaccines. Those shots have diluted venom, not anti-venom, in them.

There is, unfortunately, no credible evidence the so-called rattlesnake vaccine works. There have been no studies. Leading veterinary schools like UC Davis and the Colorado State Veterinary Teaching Hospital question that it works, and recommend against it. My vet recommended against it as well. It is a toxin. There are reports of very bad reactions, and little cause to believe it is effective.

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Are you talking about the rattle snake vaccine, or are you talking about antivenom, which might be used after a dog has been bitten.

Not sure if I made myself clear.
My dogs don't jump every time they see a water hose. 
A piece of old water hose, in high weeds, out in the field that Cash caught a glimpse of made him jump. He then realized it was a false alarm, and went on his merry way.


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## tknafox2 (Apr 2, 2013)

Our Breeder, and her associate Breeder " Rocky Mountain" & " Red Dog" Both in Ramona CA, Highly recommend the Rattle snake vaccine. Here in CA Rattle snakes are a constant threat to our off leash V's, We must do what ever we can to reduce the threat of death by snake bite. 
Here are some photos I captured from Red Dog Ranch Facebook that show the benefit of the vaccination. These dogs were bitten and survived. The swelling was gone in a day.

The first picture is a pup too young to receive the vaccine. She had much veterinarian care. The other two pictures are of a dog vaccinated that recovered within 48 hours.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

TexasRed said:


> Are you talking about the rattle snake vaccine, or are you talking about antivenom, which might be used after a dog has been bitten.
> 
> Not sure if I made myself clear.
> My dogs don't jump every time they see a water hose.
> A piece of old water hose, in high weeds, out in the field that Cash caught a glimpse of made him jump. He then realized it was a false alarm, and went on his merry way.


The anti-venom that is given post bite is very effective, but I understand there are complications involved using it multiple times (for multiple bites).

The "vaccine" is diluted venom (not anti-venom) and is of very dubious value. There is no evidence to show it works. 95% of dogs bitten by rattlesnakes that receive medical attention survive. The protocols for treating digs that have been injected with the so called "vaccine" are exactly the same, and the outcomes are no different according to leading veterinary schools. The "vaccine" does not change the mortality rates, or the recovery rates.

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Sometimes you just go with what you know, or with what you believe is the right thing to do. 
I have known people that have lost dogs to rattlesnake bites, and dogs that have recovered quickly, that had been vaccinated pre bite.
I have seen a unvaccinated dog recover from a rattle snake bite, but she suffered immensely during her recovery.

So for now mine will get the vaccine yearly.
Its something each owner needs to decide for themselves.

Someone once said A ounce of prevention (avoidance training), is worth a pound of cure (rattle snake vaccine).


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## Michi246 (Aug 21, 2012)

there is this class for anyone who might be interested. havent taken it so i cant say one way or the other about it
http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/2844


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## sfapsey (Jan 9, 2015)

Penny completed the rattlesnake avoidance training with flying colors. The training consisted of using live snakes and monitoring her reaction to them. The snakes had their mouths banded up so they couldn't bite the dogs. The first snake Penny came across tried to strike her and Penny lept in the air and immediately moved away. Her reaction was so immediate I thought the trainer used the the e collar but she said she did not.Next they set up a series of rocks some of which had the snakes scent and some were decoys. As soon as she got he scent of the venom she reacted immediately. There were some situations set up with rattle sounds and she avoided those as well.

Hopefully this translates to her avoiding snakes on the trails. She has been very good at avoiding skunks since one of our other dogs was sprayed on a run so I am hopefull.

All in all a bit expensive for 10 min of training but cheap if it avoids a snake bite.

The training was held with 10-15 other Vs so that was great to see so many of her cousins. It's interesting to see the physical differences in dogs of the same breed and also differences in behavior.


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