# Intact male and aggression



## Racer (Apr 23, 2012)

So the boy is now around 18 months and still intact. And my plan is to keep him that way for life.

He goes to daycare a few days a week. Within the last 1-2 months, I've been getting complaints that he's been aggressive and bullying other dogs there. In particular, he gets in the face of a couple of the older dogs, steals their toys and taunts them. All the dogs get a run at the dog park. And apparently he has been "hostile" to other dogs as well. To add to this, he doesn't listen to the people there. The underlying implication is "get your boy neutered".

This morning, I got another complaint that it is really getting out of hand. He has been head/body slamming other dogs. Supposedly some of the dogs he taunts have pinned him, but he always goes back for more.

I should add that there are several Vizslas at this place, so the concept of Vizsla rough play is not a foreign one to them. And the dogs he is taunting happen to be other Vizslas (neutered).

Now, at home or when he's on a run with me, he's a completely different dog. The boy is quite well behaved. For example, on a run, he'll disengage what he's doing when I call him. And at the end of the run, he calmly walks by my side without a leash to the car. Although he's in his teenage rebellion phase, he rarely if ever tests me. 

On our runs, I don't see him bullying other dogs. Either that or my tolerance for acceptable play is much higher than others. Typically it is the other owners asking me if I'm fine with how hard their dog is going at him.

I let him run with all dogs of all sizes including pit bulls and German Shepherds. I always have. He really can hold his own and he rarely backs down, which I think is the aspect that worries the daycare people the most.

Anyways, I was wondering if there are any methods that can be used to try and curtail some of the bullying behavior? I do think that he probably has realized that he doesn't have to listen to them, so corrections issued by them are not very effective. I know I can effectively correct him, but since I'm not there, that's a problem. Plus they say that if he smells I'm near, he'll probably act completely different. I believe at this point of time, I know the boy really well, and aggressive would the last word I would use to describe him. He's quite the happy dog.

Part of me feels this is dogs being dogs and they'll figure it out. But this apparently plays out every day these dogs are together. The last thing I want to happen is him hurting another dog or getting hurt himself.


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Racer, I have an intact male, 25 months old, and is as sweet and docile as they come. 
Match him with a dog that is neutered and acts all bossy, wants to make my Sam submit - and then the sparks fly. 

I keep him with me but will not seclude him. Let him go up to dogs and say hello because I know he will not be the one who causes trouble. 
However, will call him in ASAP if the other dog comes across all defensive and aggressive. We can take dominant and well behaved dogs, but can't stand aggressive ones. 
Rather than risk a dog fight I opt to call Sam to my side and walk away at heel. 


Racer, neuter him and loose half his personality, IMO. I only have experienced problems with DOMINANT NEUTERED dogs. Intact dogs have not been a problem. 
Perhaps, they have the facts wrong when they call you and complain about your boy. 

Time to keep him with U as much as possible. That's what I do. 
Crate when it's impossible.


----------



## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

He may be old enough to quit the day care altogether. I don't know your situation, but if your giving him enough exercise daily he could probably handle 8hrs a day on his own. Just a thought.


----------



## adrino (Mar 31, 2012)

Maybe you could switch the doggy day care to a dog walker instead. A break half way through his day with a long walk could be good. The rest of the day they sleep anyway. 
I've got an intact girl so I can't help you with your problem. :-\


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Fine with you but won't listen to the people at daycare........... So in other words, he's running the play, not them. Find another daycare. He sounds completely normal to me.


----------



## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

Doggy daycare is as unnatural an environment for a dog as a dog park :-\
Get a good dog walker who does high energy,entire dogs. An hour pack walk during the day wil be much better for him and probebly save you money too.
Good luck!


----------



## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

As you will have read so many times on this forum - neutering them will not solve this problem(if there really is a problem). 

We had our Dane castrated at 3 because he used to fight with my friend's Bernese Mountain Dog. It didn't change anything - we just had to keep them separated, they just didn't like each other. I think with my boy it was a case of the other dog attacked him and in future he was going to have the first word. He never bothers about other dogs and is the gentlest boy you could wish to meet. I really regret having him neutered as he wasn't a problem and it was only one incident - which I should have solved by avoidance rather than the scissors.

I agree with the others a daycare center is a very unnatural environment for a dog, he would probably be happier with staying at home and having a dog walker each day.


----------



## Nelly (Feb 7, 2013)

Hi Racer,

I didn't know there was such a thing as a daycare 'centre' - how many other dogs go?

Over here our daycare is a very nice, outdoorsy lady who only takes a couple of dogs at the same time. They spend some of the day at her house with her dog in the garden, she gives short training sessions and takes them out for a big walk in the countryside. 

Could you find something similar? 

That might be a less intense environment which could be causing him to feel he has to assert himself continually with other dogs. 

He sounds like a lovely boy, I would definitely take any accounts of 'aggressive' incidents with a pinch of salt.


----------



## Racer (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks for the replies.

Just so everyone knows, I do plan on keeping him intact for his whole life. 

I managed to talk to one of the guys that worked there when I picked him up yesterday. He indicated it may be more of the other dogs that are acting up towards him. There have been some other dogs there that have been intact, but they are not as strong willed as my boy. So what I suspect is that the owner is not used to seeing a dog fend for himself ... and it becomes easier to blame the intact dog.

The daycare place in itself is a pretty good place. He gets 2 off leash runs a day, and he gets to play with other dogs. Yes the off leash runs are at a dog park, but I personally don't have the same opinion as some people. He comes back at the end of the day pooped. I like it because I feel it gives him enough exercise and social time when I'm working. Unfortunately, I don't think they quite know how to deal with intact dogs.

I am going to start to look into other options. The difficult thing is that I have a pretty demanding work schedule. Previously, I could bring him into work, which was great because people there loved him and would take care of him when I couldn't. But I'm currently at a new place that has a dog free campus. I'll look into maybe crating him during parts of the day (I only have to go into the office for 4-5 hrs). The only problem with that is on the morning runs I take him on are rigorous so he drinks a lot of water and usually can only hold it for about 2 hours afterwards. I also think he has the bladder the size of a thimble :'(.

All workable. Just have to experiment a bit.


----------



## Rogans_Mom (Apr 8, 2018)

Our vizsla is also intact and is a little over 18 months old. We have never brought him to doggy daycare, but to bring him to the dog park from time to time. I would say 90% of the time he has no issues with any of the dogs there. However, sometimes neutered males feel threatened by him and act defensive. Rogan typically does not fight back with neutered males, having only done so with one aggressive one that came right up to him and picked a fight. Our vet said that it is actually typical for the neutered dog to be the defensive or aggressive one in these types of scenarios if the have never been exposed to an intact dog. Many dogs nowadays are neutered, so it is harder to socialize with intact dogs. She said that while neutered dogs have an almost female smell, intact dogs have a very distinct "male" smell that can trigger uncertainty, fear, and even aggression in neutered dogs who have not been socialized with intact dogs, have had bad experiences with intact dogs, or who are simply a dominant personality regardless of their genital situation. We have seen dogs of all types- neutered, intact, all kinds of breeds- get into skirmishes. Sometimes dogs just flat out don't get along or things get too rough and a dog gets defensive. Unfortunately, when a fight breaks out with a neutered and intact dog, the intact dog will ALWAYS get the blame. Some advocates for neutering dogs have done a good job at convincing the public that all intact dogs are aggressive and cannot be controlled. At the dog park we go to, I have encountered this attitude many times when another dog acts aggressive towards Rogan (unchecked by the owner) but Rogan gets the blame even if he reacts. "He is MAKING my dog act out." No, you need to handle your dog.

On a side note, although he rarely meets other intact males, Rogan has had issues with them. Especially with intact males he doesn't know and teenage puppies who do not yet know "dog etiquette." This is an issue we are trying to nip in the butt. I think it stems in part from instinct and in part from his first encounter with an intact male going very badly. He was ten months old, walked up to play, and the other dog attacked and pinned him. He was not hurt, but I would imagine he remembers since he behavior was different from the point on with other intact males. Once he gets to know the other intact dog and they know who is "top dog " in the relationship, they can interact without issue. However, if the do not see each other often, this amiable relationship fades. This makes sense given dogs are pack animals- our friends have two intact dogs and never have issues with in-house aggression or aggression with neutered/spayed dogs, but we cannot bring Rogan around their German Shepards because he is intact and and an outsider- they become protective of their pack's "territory." My husband and I typically try to identify who the other intact dogs are in the dog park before Rogan interacts with them, as I am sure a good doggy daycare would. That way we can moderate their interactions and prevent a fight. We usually do this by calling Rogan back to us if things get tense. Rogan's "trigger" is when the other intact dog goes for the genital sniff, which assumes a dominant position in dog body language according to our vet. Rogan has a more dominant personality and does not like this behavior from intact dogs. He tolerates it well from all neutered and female dogs though. 

Someone earlier in this string mentioned that dog parks are not a natural setting for a dog, and my husband and I are starting to come to the same conclusion. There is not enough consistency from a pack stand-point, too many people are clueless about what is/isn't typical dog behavior, and some people bring dogs in that are not well socialized or cannot control their dog. We have a saying about "taking the temperature of the park" when we arrive- some days you can sense the tension between dogs and can tell there is going to be trouble with the mix of dogs at the park that day. Sometimes all it takes is one loose cannon to "change the temperature." I would guess the same issues apply to doggy daycare unless its a very well-run facility with ways to separate different groups of dogs and well-educated employees who know what is typical behavior and know how to assert themselves as alpha.

Anyways, sorry for the long-winded response! Hope some of this helped or at least ensured you are not alone in the struggle with intact dog perception and behavior.


----------



## Maiguykai (11 mo ago)

Rogans_Mom said:


> Our vizsla is also intact and is a little over 18 months old. We have never brought him to doggy daycare, but to bring him to the dog park from time to time. I would say 90% of the time he has no issues with any of the dogs there. However, sometimes neutered males feel threatened by him and act defensive. Rogan typically does not fight back with neutered males, having only done so with one aggressive one that came right up to him and picked a fight. Our vet said that it is actually typical for the neutered dog to be the defensive or aggressive one in these types of scenarios if the have never been exposed to an intact dog. Many dogs nowadays are neutered, so it is harder to socialize with intact dogs. She said that while neutered dogs have an almost female smell, intact dogs have a very distinct "male" smell that can trigger uncertainty, fear, and even aggression in neutered dogs who have not been socialized with intact dogs, have had bad experiences with intact dogs, or who are simply a dominant personality regardless of their genital situation. We have seen dogs of all types- neutered, intact, all kinds of breeds- get into skirmishes. Sometimes dogs just flat out don't get along or things get too rough and a dog gets defensive. Unfortunately, when a fight breaks out with a neutered and intact dog, the intact dog will ALWAYS get the blame. Some advocates for neutering dogs have done a good job at convincing the public that all intact dogs are aggressive and cannot be controlled. At the dog park we go to, I have encountered this attitude many times when another dog acts aggressive towards Rogan (unchecked by the owner) but Rogan gets the blame even if he reacts. "He is MAKING my dog act out." No, you need to handle your dog.
> 
> On a side note, although he rarely meets other intact males, Rogan has had issues with them. Especially with intact males he doesn't know and teenage puppies who do not yet know "dog etiquette." This is an issue we are trying to nip in the butt. I think it stems in part from instinct and in part from his first encounter with an intact male going very badly. He was ten months old, walked up to play, and the other dog attacked and pinned him. He was not hurt, but I would imagine he remembers since he behavior was different from the point on with other intact males. Once he gets to know the other intact dog and they know who is "top dog " in the relationship, they can interact without issue. However, if the do not see each other often, this amiable relationship fades. This makes sense given dogs are pack animals- our friends have two intact dogs and never have issues with in-house aggression or aggression with neutered/spayed dogs, but we cannot bring Rogan around their German Shepards because he is intact and and an outsider- they become protective of their pack's "territory." My husband and I typically try to identify who the other intact dogs are in the dog park before Rogan interacts with them, as I am sure a good doggy daycare would. That way we can moderate their interactions and prevent a fight. We usually do this by calling Rogan back to us if things get tense. Rogan's "trigger" is when the other intact dog goes for the genital sniff, which assumes a dominant position in dog body language according to our vet. Rogan has a more dominant personality and does not like this behavior from intact dogs. He tolerates it well from all neutered and female dogs though.
> 
> ...


Hi Rogan’s Mom, I am sharing similar experiences with my boy as you were Rogan. Did time help with his triggers? And what did you do to help him through his triggers? 
I don’t want to make the mistake of not supporting Kai when he feels tense in alpha dog confrontations!


----------

