# Sticky  Pet Stores & Puppy Mills



## dextersmom

Originally posted by the Vizsla Rescue for Southern CA (SCVC):

Scooter's Story: On February 14th we were contacted by a young military couple who stated their Vizsla puppy was very ill and they could not pay for his veterinary bills. We were told that shortly after coming home from the pet store, Scooter had been hospitalized for 3 days for pneumonia and also treated for Giardia. Fast forward a month later -- and he is losing weight and very lethargic. He is 15 weeks old but Scooter weighs 8 lbs, which is the weight of a puppy *half* his age. He now has severe diarrhea, is not eating and is dehydrated, his x-rays confirm severe pneumonia (Scooter is coughing, gagging, having a hard time breathing). Dr. Lea Merkhens at Mission Animal Hospital recommended immediate hospitalization and offered up an Oxygen Chamber (almost $500) per day as part of his treatment. Due to the overwhelming veterinary expenses needed to simply stabilize Scooter we need donations so that he can remain in the hospital for a few days and receive intensive care. If/when Scooter is well enough to leave the veterinary hospital, he will need specialized in-home care and thankfully, we have several potential Foster Families on deck.

Updates:
2/15/2016 at 1:00AM - Phone call with vet who suggests a $200 test for Distemper due to his 103F fever, persistent diarrhea, and nasal/eye discharge. Distemper is VERY contagious and Scooter has been moved to isolation area at the vet's office. His prognosis is very poor. We agree to touch base first thing in the morning to re-asses any treatment. Please keep Scooter in your thoughts and prayers.

2/15/2016 at 7:00AM - Phone call with the vet, Scooter has taken a turn for the worse and his breathing is shallow and labored. His gums are pale white and he can no longer regulate his own body temperature. The blood-test results came back and his albumin levels are very low. The vet has recommended humane euthanasia to end his suffering. After consulting with multiple vets and other Rescue volunteers the difficult decision was made to let him go. 

2/15/16: 3:30PM -- Vet states second puppy (Husky) purchased from same pet store also died from complications due to pneumonia within the last month.

*UPDATE on "Scooter": Thank you *all* for your emails and messages, I know many have gone unanswered. It's been a very long, and a very sad day and we are simply HEARTBROKEN -- but, "Scooter" is gone. His condition deteriorated despite intensive hospitalization at the Mission Animal Hospital, and Scooter needed to be humanely euthanized. Rest in Peace sweet boy.*

**** PLEASE DO NOT SUPPORT PET STORES *** *
Scooter was purchased for a whopping $2,400 from Carlsbad Pets (pet store) near Oceanside, CA; the "breeder" has been traced back to a puppy mill in Iowa. His" breeders" are Carla Steffensmeier "listed under certificate No. 42-A-1368 or customer No. 312517, and Mark Steffensmeier, listed under certificate No. 42-B-0225 or customer No. 17017. An inspection report filed for Mark Steffensmeier on Feb. 23, 2012 by USDA inspector 4041, John J Lies, listed two accounts of direct noncompliant item (NCI) violations against Steffensmeier. The first violation, direct NCI violation 2.40, was for neglecting animals in need of medical attention to proper veterinary care and the second violation, direct NCI violation 3.1, was for unsafe and unsanitary animal housing conditions."

We've received a lot of "What can we do?" emails/message on how to stop puppy mills, etc. 

****PLEASE HELP EDUCATE THE PUBLIC**** on how/where to adopt a well bred puppy. *Do not support pet stores*; AND, buying from a pet store is NOT "rescuing"! When you purchase a puppy from a pet store you sentence that pup's parents a life of torture to replace the puppy in the window. Always insist on visiting the breeder to see HOW and WHERE a litter of puppy is raised. *Reputable breeders NEVER ship their beloved puppies to strangers or to pet stores. *Please share this website: http://www.pupquest.org


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## dextersmom

dextersmom said:


> *Do not support pet stores*; AND, buying from a pet store is NOT "rescuing"!


Note: some pet stores do partner with their local humane society to adopt out rescue animals. However, it is usually very easy to determine if dogs are being sold for profit by the store or if the store is serving as a satellite adoption center.


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## dextersmom

I won't post all of the comment threads from the Facebook posts, but there are multiple posters who have shared their experience with owning dogs from this specific puppy mill (bought through pet stores).

Their dogs had multiple health issues, and some of those that managed to survive their illnesses ultimately had to be humanely euthanized due to unmanageable aggression. Most do not seem to have lived more than 5+ years.


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## Spy Car

Thank you for highlighting this important issue!

Bill


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## texasred

Dextersmom 
Thank you for putting this on the forum.


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## riley455

J


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## riley455

S


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## texasred

7. If they do not actively show their dogs in conformation events.....RUN

I do not fully agree with #7.
While I do expect them to compete with their dogs, not all breeders are going to dual/triple title a dog. The vizsla is a hunting breed, so a show title is only important to me after hunt/FT titles.


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## riley455

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## gingerling

I don't think the list of things to avoid needs to be long and complicated.

1) Don't buy a puppy...of any breed...from a pet store. Ever.

2) Don't buy a puppy...of any breed... sight unseen, online. Ever.

It's much easier to educate the public around those basics. Then, the discussion becomes judging the breeder.


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## dextersmom

I find that list from Facebook a little misleading...



Gingerling said:


> 1) Don't buy a puppy...of any breed...from a pet store. Ever.
> 
> 2) Don't buy a puppy...of any breed... sight unseen, online. Ever.


^ THIS. "Breeders" can lie about anything online. I've seen bad BYB breeders that attend AKC events. That post pedigrees. Even that do health clearances (which was a big surprise to me). I've also seen breeders like that say that they are a member of their breed club (VCA, WCA, etc.), when it turns out they've been kicked out. And AKC registered doesn't mean that the pups are from a reputable breeder, just that they are purebred. Puppy mills often sell AKC registered dogs. A health guarantee is also only as good as the money you're willing to put up if you need to go to court to contest it should your breeder refuse to honor it.

*Visit the breeder/parent(s)/puppies IN PERSON*. And don't meet the breeder somewhere, you want to see the conditions of where the puppies were being raised. It's not the actual puppy you really need to see, it's everything else.

Also, never a bad idea to call breed clubs and confirm the breeder is a member in good standing. And call the rescues/animal control in their area and make sure they don't have any complaints about them on file.

*AND NEVER BUY FROM A PET STORE.*


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## dextersmom

Also, I think V-John said a while back that one of his red flags is if the breeder is USDA inspected (many mills seem to brag about this). Correct me if I'm misquoting him, but the need to be USDA inspected = high volume operation. I'd never thought about that, but it makes total sense.


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## dextersmom

dextersmom said:


> Also, I think V-John said a while back that one of his red flags is if the breeder is USDA inspected (many mills seem to brag about this). Correct me if I'm misquoting him, but the need to be USDA inspected = high volume operation. I'd never thought about that, but it makes total sense.


Ah, found the thread. Another good one to read!

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,2468.msg161090.html#msg161090


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## texasred

> It's much easier to educate the public around those basics. Then, the discussion becomes judging the breeder.


While I agree that education is the way to go. We need to do a better job of it. A good many people buying their first purebred dog, are still being duped by unscrupulous people.
Posting what raises red flags, may have them take a closer look before before putting down a deposit.

Before I buy a puppy, I want to have fallen in love with its parents, and grandparents for the traits they carry. These are the genes that will be passed on to my pup.
I want to have a good relationship with the breeder, and have the same moral values concerning the dogs.. If we can't be friendly, open, and honest with each other before the purchase, then there will be little or no help later. I also don't want referrals just from new puppy owners. I want them from owners that have owned their dogs for years. 
Over the years I have became a Show me person. You can tell me how great something is, but you better be prepared to show me.


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## WillowyndRanch

I have a different view, as usual to the facebook list. I get the gist of it, but think it is far too superficial to try to condense the subject to a list of it's this way or "run'.

Until relatively recently, there was no such definition of breeders. The attempt to label each set or subset of breeder, backyard, puppy mill, reputable, responsible, hobby, and the ultimate evil apparently now, a business. The first step in denigrating anything is to lump and label, then attack on every front. Who is ultimately behind this effort is what one should be asking.

For example, in a time where people can literally pay for almost anything online, with their phone, or credit card is it terrible and an immediate categorization to the "dis-reputable" pile for a breeder to only take a check or "Run"?

There are many different registries for dogs. CKC, NAVHDA, AKC, Ameri can Field, United Kennel Club - just because a dog is not AKC registry does not make it a bad dog, and in fact I personally would put a whole lot more stock in several of the other registries if I were looking for a true working/sporting dog.

As dog clubs proliferate, and the current ethos of anyone apparently in power is to control how everyone else manages their lives, less and less truly reputable breeders remain a part of these clubs, us included. We will not allow a do g club to set arbitrary rules on what/when/how we should or should not breed our dogs. That is a decision of the breeder and their reproductive veterinarian, not a rule propagated by a few in their fiefdom of a do g club. We non-renewed two dog clubs this year because of that, so not belonging to a local or national dog club does not mean that breeder is un-reputable - in fact may actually mean the opposite and potentially more concerned about doing it right than getting approval from a bunch of people that like to write rules of self-importance. 

The last one in the list actually made me laugh. Expect some questions but no way! I truly hope that there is a FAR HIGHER BAR to adopt a child than buy a dog. 

Lastly, I want to discuss this label of "reputable".

rep·u·ta·ble

adjective
having a good reputation.
"a reputable company"
synonyms:	well-thought-of, highly regarded, respected, well respected, respectable, of (good) repute, prestigious, established; reliable, dependable, trustworthy
"a reputable talent scout" 

Notice that a company, or business - by definition _*can*_ be reputable. ANY business in today's hyper-connected environment that produces ANY product direct to the public is under scrutiny. To label a well respected breeder that consistently produces quality dogs as bad simply because they derive some income from that effort, or accept a method of payment that people use at every other business every day is blatantly unfair. What other business is vilified simply because they earn money doing a good job and provide a customer service that is expected? 
I'm not talking about puppy mills that crank out thousands of dogs and sell through brokers - but there are extremely dedicated breeders that are vilified every day by good meaning folks that simply don't think past the sound-bite and are all happy to be part of the "good and right" group by attacking without consideration.

What is my advice? Talk to people, not search engines. Find out what that breeder PRODUCED, not what titles they peddle. Don't, and I mean DON'T believe ANYTHING at face value on Facebook. Who gives a crap if they make or lose money doing it or if they are tech savvy and can swipe a Square on their phone. That should not factor whatsoever in one's decision that they produce or don't produce a great pup. Definitely, If at all possible, meet the dogs, meet the generations, and meet the breeders and the last thing to do is meet the puppies, because for 99% of us, it's game over when a pup crawls in our lap.

JMHO
Ken


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## riley455

WillowyndRanch said:


> I have a different view, as usual to the facebook list. I get the gist of it, but think it is far too superficial to try to condense the subject to a list of it's this way or "run'.
> 
> Until relatively recently, there was no such definition of breeders. The attempt to label each set or subset of breeder, backyard, puppy mill, reputable, responsible, hobby, and the ultimate evil apparently now, a business. The first step in denigrating anything is to lump and label, then attack on every front. Who is ultimately behind this effort is what you should be asking.
> 
> For example, in a time where people can literally pay for almost anything online, with their phone, or credit card is it terrible and an immediate categorization to the "dis-reputable" pile for a breeder to only take a check or "Run"?
> 
> There are many different registries for dogs. CKC, NAVHDA, AKC, American Field, United Kennel Club - just because a dog is not AKC registry does not make it a bad dog, and in fact I personally would put a whole lot more stock in several of the other registries if I were looking for a true working/sporting dog.
> 
> As dog clubs proliferate, and the current ethos of anyone apparently in power is to control how everyone else manages their lives, less and less truly reputable breeders remain a part of these clubs, us included. We will not allow a dog club to set arbitrary rules on what/when/how we should or should not breed our dogs. That is a decision of the breeder and their reproductive veterinarian, not a rule propagated by a few in their fiefdom of a dog club. We non-renewed two dog clubs this year because of that, so not belonging to a local or national dog club does not mean that breeder is un-reputable - in fact may actually mean the opposite and potentially more concerned about doing it right than getting approval from a bunch of people that like to write rules of self-importance.
> 
> The last one in the list actually made me laugh. Expect some questions but no way! I truly hope that there is a FAR HIGHER BAR to adopt a child than buy a dog.
> 
> Lastly, I want to discuss this label of "reputable".
> 
> rep·u·ta·ble
> 
> adjective
> having a good reputation.
> "a reputable company"
> synonyms:	well-thought-of, highly regarded, respected, well respected, respectable, of (good) repute, prestigious, established; reliable, dependable, trustworthy
> "a reputable talent scout"
> 
> Notice that a company, or business - by definition _*can*_ be reputable. ANY business in today's hyper-connected environment that produces ANY product direct to the public is under scrutiny. To label a well respected breeder that consistently produces quality dogs as bad simply because they derive some income from that effort, or accept a method of payment that you use at every other business every day is blatantly unfair. What other business is vilified simply because they earn money doing a good job and provide a customer service that is expected?
> I'm not talking about puppy mills that crank out thousands of dogs and sell through brokers - but there are extremely dedicated breeders that are vilified every day by good meaning folks that simply don't think past the soundbite and are all happy to be part of the "good and right" group by attacking without consideration.
> 
> What is my advice? Talk to people, not search engines. Find out what that breeder PRODUCED, not what titles they peddle. Don't, and I mean DON'T believe ANYTHING at face value on Facebook. Who gives a crap if they make or lose money doing it or if they are tech savvy and can swipe a Square on their phone. That should not factor whatsoever in your decision that they produce or don't produce a great pup. Definitely, If at all possible, meet the dogs, meet the generations, and meet the breeders and the last thing to do is meet the puppies, because for 99% of us, it's game over when a pup crawls in our lap.
> 
> JMHO
> Ken


Sorry if I ruffle some feathers by posting the above list. No intent in attacking anyone or any group, will not post anything from Facebook going forward. Am fairly new to the breed myself being with four vizslas and started showing only in less than a year.

Peace!


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## texasred

Riley 
Don't be sorry, or feel like you can't share something you found on Facebook. These discussions lead to a better understanding from both the buyer, and breeders point of view. Only because you shared the post, do we have all the information that followed.


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## WillowyndRanch

Hi Riley,
I apologize as I re-read the post this morning I can see how it could be construed I was aggressive in my response and it be taken personally. I want to assure you that it was only the idea or topic that was the point of my response - in no way related to you personally. I agree completely with TR and please continue to post what you think, because that makes for great discussions. 

All the very best,
Ken


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## harrigab

I think we're all batting for same side and I guess we'd all like to see puppy millers strung up by their gonads from a lamp post......not very admin pc I admit, but they make my blood boil.


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## Patrick123

I think it is common knowledge, but you might want to add Ebay to the list. It's a big revenue source for puppy mills... at least here in Europe.
P


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## Ksana

TexasRed said:


> 7. If they do not actively show their dogs in conformation events.....RUN
> 
> I do not fully agree with #7.
> While I do expect them to compete with their dogs, not all breeders are going to dual/triple title a dog. The vizsla is a hunting breed, so a show title is only important to me after hunt/FT titles.


I would not trust conformation shows results alone. I have seen dogs getting their GCh with missing or misaligned teeth, missing testicles, and other health issues. How do I know this? Because some field tests include conformation evaluations and the results are available to public. It looks to me some field/ hunting test organizations care more about the breed standards.


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## gingerling

I think we're all in agreement...*Cue the applause*....about puppy mills and pet stores. If we want to morph this into conversation about breeders that's an entirely different issue.. A thread on "How to choose a good breeder" isn't such a bad idea.

As a one time exhibitor and owner of Ch. I completely agree on the arbitrariness and politicalization of the whole confirmation process. However, there needs to be some way of assessing a particular example against standardized, accepted criteria. I have to take issue with Ch or GCh. having obvious DQ's like one testicle or bite issues, these are always checked at each show..and any decent exhibitor/breeder/handler wouldn't risk humiliating themselves by showing a dog with obvious flaws and getting thrown out of the ring. More likely the dogs in question developed those conditions after being awarded their titles.

Field trials are another way of measuring an entirely different set of abilities, no more or less valid to the breed standards then confirmation. The task is to get a dog from bloodlines that have qualified for both. That way you're assured of an accurate example of the breed as intended.

On a side note, there are many styles of Vizsla that perfectly fit within the standards. Things like back length, amount of bone, etc. are subtle characteristics that can make 2 Vizslas look similar, yet quite different, yet both are not only perfectly acceptable, but highly desirable in the gene pool.


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## Ksana

Gingerlink: 

I just want to explain myself and my comments. I did not have the intention to start a new conversation (definitely, not about breeders). I am against puppy mills and pet stores; this is why I got myself a pure-bred V from a reputable breeder (and after months of research on my own). 

I am myself done my fare bit of showing and field testing; my comments reflect my personal opinion. I would not make my comments without having the proof. The timelines suggest otherwise (presence of defects prior to titles). Saying that and luckily for my favorite V breed, most of the known cases were of other breeds and not V. 

From my own experience, the only times when every tooth of my V was checked and accounted for was during the field testing. What I was trying to say was that I would not simply run away from those who do not show their dogs. Some breeds (e.g., Large Munsterlander, beautiful and intelligent gun dog and great companion and an excellent hunter) do not participate in AKC and CKC conformation; their conformation evaluation is being done during the filed testing. 

My original comments meant to address the included quote and to provide my explanations on why I was in agreement. I agree with you though there need to be some way of assessing the breeds. Several ways/ organizations are better than one, in my personal opinion. But I personally would rather get a puppy from the NAVHDA Utility Prize 1 parents (I know their conformation will be good and all defects will be listed, if any) than from a GCh/ Ch alone parents. V was meant to be a hunting dog (again, this is my personal opinion). 

As pet stores and puppy mills cannot possibly contribute to any breed's improvement and they definitely do not participate in any evaluation tests, people should stop buying dogs from them. I agree, stop buying is the only way to stop suffering of these dogs and their future litters. When we buy from puppy mills, we do not rescue dogs, but contribute to dogs' suffering.


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## harrigab

Ksana said:


> Gingerlink:
> 
> I just want to explain myself and my comments. I did not have the intention to start a new conversation (definitely, not about breeders). I am against puppy mills and pet stores; this is why I got myself a pure-bred V from a reputable breeder (and after months of research on my own).
> 
> I am myself done my fare bit of showing and field testing; my comments reflect my personal opinion. I would not make my comments without having the proof. The timelines suggest otherwise (presence of defects prior to titles). Saying that and luckily for my favorite V breed, most of the known cases were of other breeds and not V.
> 
> From my own experience, the only times when every tooth of my V was checked and accounted for was during the field testing. What I was trying to say was that I would not simply run away from those who do not show their dogs. Some breeds (e.g., Large Munsterlander, beautiful and intelligent gun dog and great companion and an excellent hunter) do not participate in AKC and CKC conformation; their conformation evaluation is being done during the filed testing.
> 
> My original comments meant to address the included quote and to provide my explanations on why I was in agreement. I agree with you though there need to be some way of assessing the breeds. Several ways/ organizations are better than one, in my personal opinion. But I personally would rather get a puppy from the NAVHDA Utility Prize 1 parents (I know their conformation will be good and all defects will be listed, if any) than from a GCh/ Ch alone parents. V was meant to be a hunting dog (again, this is my personal opinion).
> 
> As pet stores and puppy mills cannot possibly contribute to any breed's improvement and they definitely do not participate in any evaluation tests, people should stop buying dogs from them. I agree, stop buying is the only way to stop suffering of these dogs and their future litters. _*When we buy from puppy mills, we do not rescue dogs, but contribute to dogs' suffering.
> *_


I totally agree, here's a pic of Jack, a british bulldog, he's only 1 year old and can't walk anyway without breathing difficulties due to "fashion not function",,,he has got a lovely temperament though and him and Elvis have become good pals over the last few weeks.


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## fita1300

Any new information on Carla and Mark Steffensmeier. I went to look up my Vizsla's breeder as he was registered with ACA and it led me to a complaint against them for a pug/ bull dog mix and then this forum here. Charlie shows all the proper traits for a vizsla, but now I am worried. I purchased Charlie from a store that specializes in pure breed puppies. My sister got two Bull Mastiffs from the store over the years and Charlie was in the pen with. I have wanted a Vizsla since I first learned of them 30 years ago but it was not until this past Christmas that I had the time and space to care for the breed. Charlie seems healthy and happy, and maybe I got lucky or the Steffenmeiers have gotten better.


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## texasred

You might contact Debra with New Hope Vizsla rescue. If you want to find out more about this breeder, and some of the problems associated with their puppies.


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