# Very Sad to me What is wrong with us 27 dead and counting most kids from 5-9



## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

All this talks about Dogs we love
Evil is all around us :'(

God Bless each child and family and community :-[

Connecticut and all of team USA
shame on us 

Not sure this is the format

can WE make a Pray lists and change? 

Suffering like this never stops these tragic events

God Bless all these Great kids parents and teachers

This one Hurt me deep"


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Rudy,

Evil exists, but in the U.S. there are 300,000,000 million of us. 1/10th of 1% of the population may be evil. That is 300,000. A lot, true, but that leaves 299,700,000 of us that are good. We must shine the light on the darkness every chance we get.

Good trumps evil. 

RBD


----------



## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

it's a mindless minority, very minor and very mindless, that can bring themselves to commit acts like these, our thoughts and prayers from across "the pond" are with our brothers and sisters in USA.


----------



## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

redbirddog said:


> Ruby,
> 
> Evil exists, but in the U.S. there are 300,000,000 million of us. 1/10th of 1% of the population may be evil. That is 300,000. A lot but leaves 299,700,000 of us that are good. _*We must shine the light on the darkness every chance we get.
> 
> ...


a philosophy_* for life*_ Rod


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Plastered on every news channel when I woke up this morning.

Tragic and heartbreaking.

At the risk of speaking too early, get ready for a fight for the right to be armed in the U.S. Obama's speech intimated his intentions.


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Our thoughts and prayers :'(


----------



## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Mental illness I hope is the only answer for this mindless cruelty - called my grandchildren tonight just to hear their voices - our prayers go out to all the families and responders that may never get over this -


----------



## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

Rudy

I think it hurts everyone deeply. I live in Griswold Connecticut, and I think this will have long lasting effects throughout the state.
There's a potion of my brain that can rationalize the violence against his own family. Not justify, nor condone, but rationalize, but I just don't understand the violence against innocent defenseless children.
RBD is right in that it is an almost immeasurable fraction of a percentage of our population that is "evil". But I don't still don't get it. 

I just don't understand.


----------



## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

This one really affected me as well. When you think of the children with such life before them, the parents dropping them off for school and the proximity of Christmas. The whole thing breaks my heart.

My husband reminded me that people die every day. My response was that, of course they do - but, you can certainly mourn for them or be sad about it. 

It reminds me of acts of terrorism, yet with no known purpose or cause.

As for guns, I've read that Connecticut has some of the strictest gun restrictions/laws in the country. We will see what happens with all this politically.


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> As for guns, I've read that Connecticut has some of the strictest gun restrictions/laws in the country. We will see what happens with all this politically


. 

Tough subject. We talked about this around the lunch table at work yesterday. We can see the day when "good people" will be not have the right to own a gun. If I had been "packing" at that school, the shooter would not have done what he did for long, or I would have been added to the victim list. I would have been fine with that, as long as I tried to stop him.

The final part of a very good article by Russ Vaughn:



> Unfortunately, bad people with bad guns kill good people unless they are stopped by those good people with good guns. When defensive guns are known to be in the target area, such as schools, the massacre-minded madman will have second thoughts about his target selection.


Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/12/good_guns_can_kill_bad_people.html#ixzz2F8c27EEt


----------



## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

Thank you for posting the link. I've forwarded it on to others.


----------



## VictoriaW (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm sorry. There is not a single adult present on a daily basis at our elementary school that I would like to have packing a firearm in the presence of my children. :-\


----------



## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

redbirddog said:


> > As for guns, I've read that Connecticut has some of the strictest gun restrictions/laws in the country. We will see what happens with all this politically
> 
> 
> .
> ...


 RBD
We have some pretty strict gun laws in the state. None that have restricted me thus far from ownership, hunting, or competition,but one of the places you cannot legally carry a handgun, or a long gun, is in a school. It's an automatic, mandatory, sentencing to even carry a loaded weapon on your person within a minimum radius of a school while it is in session. 
I had a permit to carry concealed, which has since lapsed, and it is the only way a handgun can be moved about the state. Even the laws on shotguns and rifles are pretty stringent in our state. The young man responsible for the heinous act broke virtually every law we have in Connecticut concerning firearms.

This is such a tragedy.


----------



## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Out of all of the tragedies that have occured in our country during my lifetime, I have never felt the sorrow that I felt yesterday. I like to believe that I am a strong person that has the ability to overcome adversity, but I cannot fathom how these parents can make it through these terribly difficult days. I cannot imagine that phone call, or the waiting, or the absence of my child. I don't have children, but it breaks my heart to think of a parent losing their small, innocent child in such a horrendous way. It is impossible to understand how someone could do this. :'(

Thank goodness for the adults that were present that were able to protect so many of the other children. Thank goodness for the police officers that came to their rescue. 

I feel as if we have almost become numb to college campus shootings, mall shootings, theater shootings.. I pray that we never become numb to an instance like this. This has to be a wake up call.

RBD, I agree with having someone in the school that is proficient with firearms. Regardless of the law, if someone is capable of this, that person will find a way. These people prey on the defenseless. They target schools, churches, theaters - places where people are unassuming and have their guard down. If the perpetrator felt that his victims could protect themselves, I doubt he would even try.


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> The young man responsible for the heinous act broke virtually every law we have in Connecticut concerning firearms.
> 
> This is such a tragedy.


Gunnr,
I have no wisdom to share besides:

* "Do not live in fear because fear is the tool of the tyrant.*

Very sad.

Found this morning (Sunday). Stated my feelings really well:

_*"So spare us all for a decent interval the long distance shibboleths of gun control, the amateur psychoanalysis, the morbid and soul killing paparazzi shots of parents learning for the first time of the slaughter of their children.

Let's have a decent silence to contemplate the eternal nature of evil and the tragic loss we all feel.

Back away from the microphones.

Put down those cameras.

Let us just grieve."*_


----------



## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

I have had such deep, deep sadness in my heart for these last two days that I've barely been able to speak, let alone type. And those poor parents, and loved ones of the adult victims... they will have that sadness in their hearts for the rest of their lives.


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

So sad. But let's not waste it. It should serve as a great springboard to freedoms if used as a learning tool.

If gun laws were even stricter in Connecticut prior to this shooting, do you think the result would be different? I don't. 

If bad people have an overwhelming desire to do bad things, laws and restrictions will not stop them. In my eyes, it's more a culture of violence than gun laws which cause these types of events.


----------



## NeverGiveUpRAC (Aug 27, 2012)

There is no way to stop evil, except to know it exists and be ready at any time to fight it. Unfortunately, laws can't keep us safe. Rules are not abided. No one needs to suggest an extreme solution because it will just provide a false feeling a safety for those who ARE afraid. We need to protect ourselves every chance we get. We need to accept responsibility to protect others when they are top innocent to have the knowledge that it is not safe anywhere. The older I get the sadder the world makes me. Disappointed at the way people turn on each other when we should be a brotherhood.

I will always think of the children who were taken. I can't imagine frantically arriving to pick up your child at school when something like this happened, and while others reunite with their own, you are told your child was killed. I will have a place in my hear forever for all of the victims. So devastating. 

Hopefully, some good will come from a tragedy. Appreciate what you have. Do NOT take things for granted. Be thankful for every second of life you live. And no matter how crazy your Vizsla makes your life, be glad you have their love.

Let's pray for everyone in the world who's heart has broken and hope they heal soon.


----------



## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

I too am saddened by the events that took place yesterday. I don't want anyone to think I am heartless or cruel, just giving some food for thought though. Last year over 3000 children and teens were killed in gun related acts here in America. Did anyone feel the same level of sadness and remorse for them? We as a country need to take a stand against all criminal acts, especially against children. I hope this tragedy truly gets people thinking and acting, though I feel it will soon be forgotten into memory like Columbine


----------



## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Gunnr - as the aftermath of this horrific event unfolds I take a large amount of solace in the HEROIC acts of the staff teachers students and first responders - this is the moral strength that bonds us together as Americans - your state police local law enforcement and other agencies have acted with a professionalism above reproach - My prayers go out to all the people of your GREAT state


----------



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

Ozkar said:


> If gun laws were even stricter in Connecticut prior to this shooting, do you think the result would be different? I don't.


I have to disagree with you Ozkar. I don't want to people to lose the right to own guns but a change to the law that means people no longer own guns that can pack so many rounds in them would have helped. This guy had guns that fire many rounds with in a minute. These are not hunting guns but guns designed to kill humans. Slowing down the rate of fire would help so that when nut jobs like this guy do things like this they do less damage before they are stopped.

I know this won't stop these type of attacks happening but will less the blow delivered by them.


----------



## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

Born, I have to disagree with you there. As a competitive 3 gun shooter, I can tell you that magazine capacity has little to do with it. One can do just as much damage with 3 x 10 round magazines as one can with 1 x 30 round magazine in roughly the same amount of time. A magazine change takes all of .76 seconds. His whole time of attack was under 4 minutes, too short for police response. If a madman wants to perform a heinous act like this, he's going to be able to successfully do so whether he has 5, 10, or 100 round magazines, because we have created zero tolerance "free fire" zones where there is little to no resistance. I agree that policies need to change, but this despicable act can't be blamed on guns or the capacity of their magazines. It can only be blamed on the madmen behind the weapons.


----------



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

dmak said:


> Born, I have to disagree with you there. As a competitive 3 gun shooter, I can tell you that magazine capacity has little to do with it. One can do just as much damage with 3 x 10 round magazines as one can with 1 x 30 round magazine in roughly the same amount of time. A magazine change takes all of .76 seconds. His whole time of attack was under 4 minutes, too short for police response. If a madman wants to perform a heinous act like this, he's going to be able to successfully do so whether he has 5, 10, or 100 round magazines, because we have created zero tolerance "free fire" zones where there is little to no resistance. I agree that policies need to change, but this despicable act can't be blamed on guns or the capacity of their magazines. It can only be blamed on the madmen behind the weapons.


My point exactly. Guns with magazines should be banned. I know this won't be popular with those that collect or compete in gun competitions but it would save lives. It would still allow for hunting guns to be owned and hunted with or used for competitions.


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

born36 said:


> dmak said:
> 
> 
> > Born, I have to disagree with you there. As a competitive 3 gun shooter, I can tell you that magazine capacity has little to do with it. One can do just as much damage with 3 x 10 round magazines as one can with 1 x 30 round magazine in roughly the same amount of time. A magazine change takes all of .76 seconds. His whole time of attack was under 4 minutes, too short for police response. If a madman wants to perform a heinous act like this, he's going to be able to successfully do so whether he has 5, 10, or 100 round magazines, because we have created zero tolerance "free fire" zones where there is little to no resistance. I agree that policies need to change, but this despicable act can't be blamed on guns or the capacity of their magazines. It can only be blamed on the madmen behind the weapons.
> ...


The gun is not the problem, the shooter is the problem.
Even revolvers have speed loaders.

This is a mental health issue. We as a nation do very little for the mentally ill.
Instead we try to punish the good for the actions of the bad or ill.
Gun Laws will not take guns out of criminals hands. It will take them out of law abiding citizens hands, leaving them easier to prey upon.
Mexico has strict gun laws and it sure hasn't help them stop any of the violence.
I only bring up Mexico because they border the US. Their drug cartel travels back and forth across our borders illegally on a daily bases. Part of the US is considered unsafe to travel due to the cartel.


----------



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

TexasRed said:


> born36 said:
> 
> 
> > dmak said:
> ...


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> This is a mental health issue. We as a nation do very little for the mentally ill.
> Instead we try to punish the good for the actions of the bad or ill.


Juan Enriquez is someone Datacan turned me onto a couple years ago. A fantastic speaker regarding the future. TED network is a great resource for knowledge sharing. In the below talk that takes 16 minutes to watch, at about 12 minutes + he talks about some issues with our society at the root of the problem. We will see more not less dysfunction in the next generations unfortunately.

http://www.ted.com/talks/juan_enriquez_will_our_kids_be_a_different_species.html

The reason I walk in the hills with just the dogs is because that is where peace exists. I watch very little TV anymore.

Happy trails. Get out into nature as much as you can for your own peace of mind and turn off the news for holiday season at least. That's my plan.

RBD


----------



## deeco3307 (Jun 13, 2010)

I know this might not be popular with some on this forum, but I have to vent a little. The original sole purpose of an assault rifle was to assault. It wasn't so someone can have a Sunday at the shooting range. These weapons are far to powerful and dangerous for 99.9% of the general public to own. Why a middle age housewife with a mentally unstable child in a safe town felt it was appropriate to have these weapons in her home is beyond me, but I also guarantee she isn't the only one in a similar situation. Which speaks to why some level of gun control is necessary.

As for whether a high capacity magazine can do more damage...there were several people that made it out of the same room this man was firing shots in. He probably unloaded 100 or more rounds in a short period of time. If he had to change his magazine even 5 times in that period (for a competitive shooter .76 sec x 5), several people would have been able to escape or adults could stand a chance to overtake him. 

.76 seconds is not trivial by any stretch. If it saved 5 lives, isn't that worth it?

And the idea that more guns in more places will save more lives from guns it just totally backwards. The facts clearly state, more guns=equals more gun related deaths.


----------



## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

Here are some statistics for mortality rates in the US for 2009 issued by the CDC

- Deaths caused by automobiles - 34,485
- Deaths caused by firearms - 31,347

Of those deaths caused by firearms

- Suicide - 19,944
- Homicide - 11,493

If you want to ban guns, you should also want to ban cars, as cars are responsible for more deaths in this country


----------



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

dmak said:


> Here are some statistics for mortality rates in the US for 2009 issued by the CDC
> 
> - Deaths caused by automobiles - 34,485
> - Deaths caused by firearms - 31,347
> ...


Cars get us places so therefore are needed. Assault weapons get us places too....in the ground so are not needed.


----------



## deeco3307 (Jun 13, 2010)

99% of people age 16 or older drive a car. They take appropriate training and get a license to drive a car only after they prove their proficiency. They may even be required to prove their proficiency every 5 years. The sole original purpose of driving a car is to get from place to place. Sure it could kill someone, accidents happen, but the percentage of times a car is driven that it actually kills someone, in relation to the accidents or non-accidents that kill people in gun related deaths is not even close.

Far less people own a gun than a car. Far less people shoot a gun than drive a car. Yet the number of deaths are nearly the same.


----------



## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

So in theory its OK to die by car, but its not OK to die by gun?


----------



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

dmak said:


> So in theory its OK to die by car, but its not OK to die by gun?


Yep


----------



## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

That's a very jaded perspective. I've had close friends killed by guns and by dui drivers, and in all instances their deaths we're equally tragic.


----------



## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm going to hop of the soapbox now as this forum is intended for the advancement of our furry red friends. I apologize to anyone that has been offended by my off-topic rantings.


----------



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

dmak you are making it narrow. 

You can't compare apples and oranges and expect the same thinking.

Gun deaths happen due to intent and the yes the accidental ones are tragic. 

Driving deaths are accidental and therefore also tragic. 

I am not literally saying it is okay for someone to die in a traffic accident what I am saying is the impact of removing cars from society wouldn't be possible as society needs them now to function and is therefore dependent on travel. Removal of automatic weapons would be a good thing and the world is not dependent on them. 

I too have had family members die from traffic accidents but I not once felt that cars should go. These are accidents. You really can't bring in other objects into a weapons debate if we are talking weapons we are talking weapons.


----------



## Mober (Sep 27, 2012)

2 views:

* the culture of fear, violence, distrust, paranoia breeds crazy. that force and power is the answer to issues. And I cant help but feel there is a link between those with an agenda and those who are predisposed to crazy, especially when a Democrat is the White House

* easy access to weapons, esp assault weapons. Crazy is crazy but multiplied by the capability of these weapons is just plain saddening


----------



## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Of the deaths caused by automobiles, how many of those are from murder with intent? I get the point that cars and guns are objects, neither good nor bad, but cars are intended for transportation and guns intended for killing. In pure philosophical argument the value of a death caused by a brake failure, a drunk driver, a hunting accident, a gang rivalry, or a disturbed 20 year old with an assault rifle is the same, but the way these mass shootings affect us a nation is quite different from how other deaths affect us. 

Looking at our country's history with prohibition I think it's unlikely that gun control would work, but to continue the comparison, what other means of limiting the deadly effect of guns do we have? I mean this a genuine question for discussion. With cars we have various safety regulations, yearly registration, emissions certifications, and a fairly easy to pass licensing system. With guns there are also safety features and a licensing system which I would think is far more stringent on the whole, but I only started researching it early last week. 

Sorry for overlap with other posts, I've been typing it while other responses came in.


----------



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm coming off the box too dmak.

Back to furry friends. I know we all want the best for society.


----------



## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

It's incidences like these that sometimes leave me conflicted, and I wish both sides of the 2nd ammendmant debates would negotiate in good faith to arrive at a workable, achievable, solution. Unfortunately, that is not the reality. Politics will always get in the way, and I see that now Schumer and Feinstien are right back at again. Trotting out the same flawed legislation that they couldn't pass in the 80's, now getting ready to resurrect it again. Wasting both valuable time and resources.
Connecticut still has the Brady ban in effect, it was never really rescinded in spirit in this state. Interestingly enough, the weapon used this past weekend was not included in the original Brady bill, and still is not a banned weapon in Connecticut. So even had the Brady Act still been in effect at the federal level this particular weapon was not included.
The term "Assualt rifle" is a made up term. It was made up by politician and news reportes to categorize and demonize a class of weapons they know little about. It is the interperatation and definition of this term that is the source of conflict. It has nothing whatsoever to do with firing rates, or ballistics. It means what someone wants it to mean. These are autoloading firearms, whether from an external magazine, or internal magazine tube feed, they are the same, by definition.
Some, ie Schumer and Feinstien want to classify any weapon capable of loading a subsequent round without manual intervention as an "assault rifle", and any firearm capable of automatic ejection of a spent round would also fall into this category. They also want to limit the capacity of any firearm to 5 rounds or less. These definitions, would in effect remove virtually every gun in America from private ownership, and that is their stated position and intent. 
It is a seige mentality, on both sides of the issue, and this is why meaningful reform will not happen until both sides agree to set aside personal agenda and work toward a common goal.
I don't want to see either side use this tradgedy as a rallying point for their individual position. It would be reprehensible to me.


----------



## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

Of the deaths caused by auto mobiles in 2009, 11,722 were caused by dui. I consider death by a dui driver negligent homicide. A drunk person taking control of a 2 ton death trap is just as responsible for their actions as a person that uses a gun against another IMO. a car is just as much a weapon as a gun is, IMO.

Sorry, that's my final jab. I promise to be quiet about this topic. There are passionate people on both sides of the spectrum


----------



## dwishop (Feb 23, 2011)

I am a Life Member of the NRA. I give a great deal of my time and money to protect my 2nd Amendment Rights. There are people who disagree and give a great deal of their time and money as well to try to make their beliefs known.

This is fine. This is how we do things in America. Everyone has their beliefs. Everyone fights for them with equal zeal and passion. And somehow we come to a middle ground. And that middle ground is seldom a set line in the road. It moves back and forth, and back and forth. This is why we all remain ever vigilant to support our beliefs.

I don’t think either side should be opportunistic and use a great tragedy to try and further their agendas.

Times like this we should lay aside our differences, and grieve for the loss of innocent lives.


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

dwishop.

I completely agree with your thoughtful post. Very well said.

Thank you.

Rod


----------



## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

deeco3307 said:


> Yet the number of deaths are nearly the same.


Approximately 60% are suicide, but that's never reported in the statistics.
Ken


----------



## Mober (Sep 27, 2012)

I am curious what exactly are your 2nd amendment rights and why you think they are at risk? And why considering regulations is an affront? Pray not be the "slippery slope" ...


----------



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

dmak said:


> Of the deaths caused by auto mobiles in 2009, 11,722 were caused by dui. I consider death by a dui driver negligent homicide. A drunk person taking control of a 2 ton death trap is just as responsible for their actions as a person that uses a gun against another IMO. a car is just as much a weapon as a gun is, IMO.
> 
> Sorry, that's my final jab. I promise to be quiet about this topic. There are passionate people on both sides of the spectrum


Yes a car is a weapon when people drive drunk! A gun is a weapon whether sober or drunk. It is a weapon plain and simple. In your argument anything is then a weapon. A brick if it falls from a wall. A curb if someone trips over it. etc.


----------



## Mober (Sep 27, 2012)

I don't mean to argue, and you don't have to answer ... not sure its right to argue now anyway. I do believe there's a couple ways to look at problems

(1) There's a problem, what can I do to solve it

(2) There's a problem, I need to take a position that protects my interest

The NRA is 100% #2. It's 2012, its possible to solve and protect your interests. I believe there are still "win-win"'s out there.


----------



## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Cars get us places so therefore are needed. Assault weapons get us places too....in the ground so are not needed. 
[/quote]

With all due respect, and the last I'll say on this very touchy subject - that is very offensive to Veterans like myself. "Assault weapons", or any weapon owned by an American are protected under the second amendment. That Right - has nothing to do with hunting, it has to do with FREEDOM. Freedom that many who are "in the ground" bought and paid for with their lives. 

I mourn for those lost in the tragedy. However - let us not lose sight of the fact that it is the very arms that earned our freedom, and also keep us free. I wish every Teacher were trained and armed. After 9-11 we approved locked, reinfoced cabin doors and Pilots to carry, why can't we institue protective measures at our schools? 
THAT would reduce or remove the impact far more than any regulation of magazine capacity or rate of fire. Police clean up the mess after tragedy in nearly all cases. Take away people's legal right to defend themselves, their communities and their Country - one only needs to look at history to see where that road ends.

Ken


----------



## Mober (Sep 27, 2012)

crap.... "fact that it is the very arms that earned our freedom, and also keep us free" 

Could you explain this? 

PS ... clearly not every weapon is protected, otherwise we would have private armies out there with tanks and planes. In 1787 it was possible for a person to be as armed as the government. In 2012 clearly one cannot. I respect all veterans and the service to country, however freedom and an arbitrary line in the sand on firearms are not equal.


----------



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

WillowyndRanch said:


> Cars get us places so therefore are needed. Assault weapons get us places too....in the ground so are not needed. ;


[/quote]
With all due respect, and the last I'll say on this very touchy subject - that is very offensive to Veterans like myself. "Assault weapons", or any weapon owned by an American are protected under the second amendment. That Right - has nothing to do with hunting, it has to do with FREEDOM. Freedom that many who are "in the ground" bought and paid for with their lives. 

I mourn for those lost in the tragedy. However - let us not lose sight of the fact that it is the very arms that earned our freedom, and also keep us free. I wish every Teacher were trained and armed. After 9-11 we approved locked, reinfoced cabin doors and Pilots to carry, why can't we institue protective measures at our schools? 
THAT would reduce or remove the impact far more than any regulation of magazine capacity or rate of fire. Police clean up the mess after tragedy in nearly all cases. Take away people's legal right to defend themselves, their communities and their Country - one only needs to look at history to see where that road ends.

Ken
[/quote]

Of course I am not suggesting our military should not use assault riffles. Or police for that matter. I am guessing as I live in the UK you are assuming I am a foreigner that doesn't understand US freedom. Just so you understand. I am American I live in the UK.

Also I have relatives in the military and some that have lost their lives. I am not so crazy to think the military shouldn't have use of weapons to protect our countries. 

Teaching is a high stress job and not all teachers are good. My grand mother is a teacher so before you throw this one back at me too please rethink what you just said. You just said that the answer to school shootings is to have guns at school.??


----------



## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Teaching is a high stress job and not all teachers are good. My grand mother is a teacher so before you throw this one back at me too please rethink what you just said. You just said that the answer to school shootings is to have guns at school.?? 
[/quote]

Why is that such a ludicrous idea? If we entrust the lives, safety and minds of our children to these people, why would we not entrust them with training and tools to increase their safety and defend them? 

Since we've hardened airliners and armed Pilots, has there been a successful hijacking?

That's the last I'll post on this subject. I come to this forum not to argue gun control, but to discuss red dogs and enjoy the people. Right now, I don't think this thread is bringing that aspect to anyone.

I'm out.
Ken


----------



## Mober (Sep 27, 2012)

Some part of this is a sad intersection of the availability of weapons and a person who is unstable. Increasing the chances of more intersections in the hopes of defending against the other doesnt seem like a good idea. I think thats what the comment was about. I do agree I didn't come here to argue about this. I will end as well. God bless those kids.


----------



## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

I just think that bringing guns to school to stop guns being brought to school is crazy. 

As a kid I had a knife held to my throat on a bus. I don't think for one minute that a bus driver should come to work every day armed in order to protect kids.


----------



## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

We Packed Trout Rods and Shotguns daily to school 6th grade to 12th

Older then dirt 8)

Funny not one Gun problem in school as they were respected each tool like gold 

and that bell rang it was sports or fall hunting

teachers commanded respect 

and I may have earned naked swats after football practice in the showers ;D

paddle was drilled

I would say come on harder coach lol

Even when there was a problem

We fought some and shook hands if it was a fair fight

Not one gun involved and every Friday/Fights night each smoker I was stacking meat
like treats

A big Mouth does not make a big man 

skills can.

The inner family has Broken face the facts not feel good $

drugs are like dirty socks
Booze like water

We make choices and take chances that hurt

Addictions are a choice make a better one ;D

Of late a 11 year old boy we were helping some told me we all steal some and watch porn?

Most are wrong this outbreak is not the 1 percent

and not one does much until its yours or a family member 

Only one win left and the Duke is dead

WE must try more and be more involved even with great risks

Like most this is just a (mean streets) getting some statement

Respect and Inner families must fight back

and Listen to me

all Single Dads you did not leave your kids

I don't care what she or he did

Reach out and risks some or the rewards will be much more pain

God Bless all that care and dare some

WE MUST FIGHT ON

even haters We love


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

I refuse to watch the "news" about this story. Sensationalistic journalism turns my stomach. This professor shares my view for what that is worth. 02 cents. 


"Newtown, Connecticut is the most horrible catastrophic tragedy one can imagine. The nation, rightly, is in agony over bright-eyed promise gunned down with evil, maniacal, precision.

Predictably, the rushes to judgment didn't wait until the little bodies were cold. Aside from the odious ersatz tut-tutting blaming an inanimate object for a deranged human's animus was the media's forcing of the politically correct narrative upon a sleepy Connecticut grade school.

Let me be very, very clear: From all reports the school's professionals did everything possible to protect and shield their charges from the mad apocalypse of Adam Lanza.

They did the best they could with what they had.

Tragically, what they had wasn't enough.

There was Principal Dawn Hochsprung, who reportedly flung herself at the gunman. Her incredibly brave resolve was not matched by the bullets that tore her to death.



Then there was Mary Sherlach, the school psychologist who joined Hochsprung in trying to apprehend Lanza. Sherlach, her protective intent her only defense, instantaneously died beside her boss.

Anne Marie Murphy was a special education teacher dedicated to a profession wrought with challenges but great rewards. She was found, dead, shielding the children she loved.

Then there was Vicki Soto, by all accounts a darling of a teacher found dead between her and her joyously alive charges.

Teacher Lauren Gabrielle Rousseau was, apparently, having the best year of her life. Newly appointed at the school she had a great boyfriend and life.

Dead. Just like that.

And, the pall over all, the dead children: Not in a scrape, no bruised knees, no bloody noses.

Dead. The week before Christmas.

But I'm reconsidering the "heroic" label afforded these poor people by the hunger mongers of the press. Not because what they did was not heroic, it was. But let me offer that there is more than one definition of hero.

What we had in Newtown was the heroism of pacifism - a form of heroism, no doubt. Through the ages are myriad stories of simple, ordinary people who, when faced with the most dreadful of circumstances, have offered themselves up, willingly, for the greater good.

I just wish the heroes of Newtown had been of a different stripe. While we will always remember their willful selflessness,* I really wanted them to be the heroes who had dispatched the evil gunman with force of their own, and who now would have been all over the media as saviors rather than victims."
*
Mark P. Mostert, PhD, for American Thinker, is a researcher in Virginia Beach, VA.


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

deeco3307 said:


> I know this might not be popular with some on this forum, but I have to vent a little. The original sole purpose of an assault rifle was to assault. It wasn't so someone can have a Sunday at the shooting range. These weapons are far to powerful and dangerous for 99.9% of the general public to own. Why a middle age housewife with a mentally unstable child in a safe town felt it was appropriate to have these weapons in her home is beyond me, but I also guarantee she isn't the only one in a similar situation. Which speaks to why some level of gun control is necessary.
> 
> As for whether a high capacity magazine can do more damage...there were several people that made it out of the same room this man was firing shots in. He probably unloaded 100 or more rounds in a short period of time. If he had to change his magazine even 5 times in that period (for a competitive shooter .76 sec x 5), several people would have been able to escape or adults could stand a chance to overtake him.
> 
> ...


No you are incorrect in this case. If you look at the facts, the shooter pumped multiple rounds into every victim. Some victims had in excess of ten rounds in them. So all it would have done, is saved some lead. In the end a smaller magazine would not have changed the end result. I can change a magazine in an old Lee Enfield .303 WWII Military Rifle faster than you could move your leg to take a step towards me. The reason I say an old WWII Lee Enfield, is that compared to modern weapons, they are incredibly slow and clunky. With a modern rifle, I could probably change magazines before you even thought of stepping forward. 

Once again, I will say it, I live in a country with tight gun laws. I would like to have the freedoms the U.S. has.


----------



## Mober (Sep 27, 2012)

"... if only the kindergarten teachers were packing ..." what a wonderful world it would be


----------



## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

First and foremost I think we have to look at ways of protecting kids in school. I'm not sure arming teachers would be a good thing, not sure it wouldn't either.
Thinking outside the box so to speak, would it not be possible to have "panic doors", "bullet proof windows" etc so that as soon as a nut job was on the loose his access is very limited?


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Twas' 11 days before Christmas, around 9:38 when 20 beautiful children stormed through heaven's gate. Their smiles were contagious, their laughter filled the air. They could hardly believe all the beauty they saw there. They were filled with such joy; they didn't know what to say. They remembered nothing of what had happened earlier that day. “where are we?" asked a little girl, as quiet as a mouse. “This is heaven" declared a small boy. "We’re spending Christmas at God's house”. When what to their wondering eyes did appear, but Jesus, their savior, the children gathered near. He looked at them and smiled, and they smiled just the same. Then He opened His arms and He called them by name. And in that moment was joy, that only heaven can bring those children all flew into the arms of their King and as they lingered in the warmth of His embrace, one small girl turned and looked at Jesus' face. And as if He could read all the questions she had He gently whispered to her, "I'll take care of mom and dad. “then He looked down on earth, the world far below He saw all of the hurt, the sorrow, and woe, then He closed His eyes and He outstretched His hand, “Let My power and presence re-enter this land! “May this country be delivered from the hands of fools” “I’m taking back my nation. I'm taking back my schools! “Then He and the children stood up without a sound. “Come now my children let me show you around. “Excitement filled the space, some skipped and some ran. All displaying enthusiasm that only a small child can. And I heard Him proclaim as He walked out of sight, “in the midst of this darkness,” I AM STILL THE LIGHT."


----------



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Remote classes over the INTERNET... 8) Bye Bye yellow school bus...
\ 


harrigab said:


> First and foremost I think we have to look at ways of protecting kids in school[/color].


----------



## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Talk about arming teachers or implementing other protective measures is unrealistic on a scale that would actually make it effective. I was in 5th grade when the shooting in Columbine occurred and my schools on the other side of the country did make changes in safety protocol. All exterior doors, except by the main office remained locked while school was in session, and we practiced lockdown drills, just like you would a fire or tornado drill. Schools constructed after the shooting featured bullet proof glass in the doors. We also had school resource officers who enforced security measures and carried tasers. The measures are probably common in large suburbs, not so much in small town America where the budgets are much tighter. Our world is broken and everything people suggest from gun control to increased awareness of mental health is like slapping on a bandaid when there's an internal bleed. That's not to say there isn't a cure, but it's not coming from through political means. Christmas is the perfect time to remember that. If only the reminder wasn't through so terrible a tragedy.


----------



## charliecoyot (Nov 26, 2012)

I don't get it - I grew up in South Dakota - been around weapons my entire life. We'd have shotguns in our vehicles in high school so we could hunt after school - perfectly Ok, teachers knew and some would even hunt with us (1981 to 1985).

Never had a mass shooting in South Dakota - granted we only had 700,000 people in the entire state then - but look around the northern great plains of America (North/South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming) - no mass shootings I know of.....why??

And, why so many mass shootings recently (last 10 years)?? Same/similar guns with same capabilities have been around a long time......why are they being used in such God awful ways in recent times?? I have my own opinions for answers to these questions - but to me, these are more the questions for today than which guns to ban. Why the shootings now when the methods/opportunities have always been there??


----------



## deeco3307 (Jun 13, 2010)

This is the last thing ill say on this topic. We all have our opinions and I respect those. I just felt like many we're giving their political view and the opposite needed to be presented to those with an open mind. The best way to learn about the future is to look into the past. 

Here is an article from the sacromento bee this morning.

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/18/5060929/mass-shooting-in-australia-provides.html


----------



## Suliko (Sep 17, 2011)

This is a double-edged sword. Taking away guns will not solve the problem. Have all the low-fat products solved the obesity issue? Raising a mentally and physically healthy nation might be a good start, IMHO.


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

How about someone from Australia commenting on this article that deeco shared.

I'd find it interesting since it stated: _*"In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upward of 90 percent."*_ 
How is it 16 years later?

Sent to me by a friend:

I’ve done a little research –

Because it does not support the Gun ban worked idea, No one seems to ever note that incarceration rates have gone UP 16.67 percent (from 150 per 100,000 to 175/100,000) during the same timeframe since the gun ban. Could it be possible, that with a significant increase in imprisonment that there:

A) Could be less murderers walking the streets?
B) Indicate that the overall crime rate has increased?

It does not seem illogical that with nearly a 17% increase in incarcerations that there would be a drop in homicide rates of just over 1%[/color]. 





> Viewpoints: Mass shooting in Australia provides gun control lesson
> By Will Oremus
> Published: Tuesday, Dec. 18, 2012 - 12:00 am | Page 9A Sacramento Bee
> On April 28, 1996, a gunman opened fire on tourists in a seaside resort in Port Arthur, Tasmania. By the time he was finished, he had killed 35 people and wounded 23 more. It was the worst mass murder in Australia's history.
> ...


----------



## Suliko (Sep 17, 2011)

*redbirddog*, I wonder how the government will be able to track all the guns in the US. They can't even track their own!


----------



## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

> Of the deaths caused by automobiles, how many of those are from murder with intent? I get the point that cars and guns are objects, neither good nor bad, but cars are intended for transportation and guns intended for killing.


I think this really highlights the issue everyone is debating. 

Yes - guns are made for the purpose of shooting (and, often, killing). And yet, possession and ownership of these weapons is a Constitutionally protected right. It seems unfathomable to a lot of people - but that's what it is. There is no distinction in the Constitution between objects that can be used to kill (pitchforks), the muskets, magazine construction or the AK-47s. It's a right to own and use weapons, period. 

By Constitutional design, the only thing that tempers the right to use them is the right of others to life. That's it. I get that for some this is very hard to accept and they may consider this right barbaric, primitive or misguided - but it is there and it is important to too many people in America even in 2012.

The debate on gun control usually flares up after a sensationalized shooting. We don't talk about daily gun-related deaths in Chicago caused by gang and drug violence, despite the fact that gang violence and suicides account for the overwhelming majority of gun deaths or about the open disregard of existing gun control laws in effect in IL. We talk about gun control only after a high-profile shooting that looks like a "made for TV" drama - a killing of a president or a shooting in a movie theater or at school and we most often propose to limit the rights of 300 million people to prevent a handful from abusing them.

And so to me, the real question is: are we arguing about preventing deaths or are we looking for ways to encroach on and eventually repeal the 2nd Amendment.

Very often, I feel like the real intent behind gun control is the latter. And so I resent the enterprising politicians and other "advocates" who come out of the woodwork to exploit a tragedy every time it happens. It's clear that Michael Bloomberg's ideal solution would be to repeal the 2nd Amendment outright, but because it's part of our culture and history they talk about "reasonable" infringement on it, such as grandfathering hunting rifles, regulating the magazine construction, etc.

To the camp that argues about preventing deaths, the key issue is the intent to kill or harm others. The object used to kill is secondary. That's why they point to mass deaths that result from things other than guns (car bombs, plane crashes, etc). And that's why they insist that singling out guns has an ulterior motive and results in nothing but a band-aid that doesn't address the real issue (violence against others).

But that's my own view. Since we're all current or future owners of hunting dogs, created to help people armed with deadly weapons, we all probably had to at least consider this issue and I'm grateful to people who posted about it in this forum. Most of the posters make an effort to avoid being confrontational or to insult and I personally would like this discussion to continue.


----------



## deeco3307 (Jun 13, 2010)

redbirddog said:


> How about someone from Australia commenting on this article that deeco shared.
> 
> I'd find it interesting since it stated: _*"In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upward of 90 percent."*_
> How is it 16 years later?
> ...


----------



## 3Gundogs (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm a long time lurker. I read the Bee article. Sadly as with most "news" nowadays, the "facts" are free and loose, so I tend to do my own investigation to find maybe more what the "real" truth is. 
In that vein, and solely for others information, I spent several hours today looking at Australian Criminology reports and FBI reports. I found it impressive, but unlikely that the homicide rate dropped nearly 60% in Australia. For all the information I was able to access, I could find no correlating evidence of said claim. It seems someone has been doing Ouiji math. As you'll see, I'm a numbers geek - What I did find is this:

In any experiment one needs to have an experiment group and a control group to gauge outcome. If one is using Australia’s gun ban as the argument and basing the change in crime levels solely on that ban, then one must compare this to a country that has enacted no such measures. Data gathering and dissemination has a lag. The most comprehensive data I was able to collect was through 2010. As data changes both positive and negative to the prior year data point, I believe the truest determination of success of an experiment such as this would be garnered by a Median over the duration of the experiment to date. 

I’ve put together a spreadsheet pulled from the FBI database for the United States as a control group for the 12 year period from 1997 to 2010 and the Australian Institute of Criminology for the Experiment group. None of the data was taken from blogs or news articles and the like. 

I did not include an adjustment factor based on the delta in Population change in the evaluation, however if I had it would have merely accentuated the results and offer no different disparity result.

The Oklahoma City Bombing and 9/11 terrorist attacks are not included in the FBI numbers, and for purposes of gun control experimentation would not be relevant. As such, I did not include them in my evaluation.

The highlights are:

Australia’s Population grew by a Median of 7.99% United States Population grew by a Median of 9.13%

The Australian Median Homicide numbers FELL by 10.03% 
U.S. Homicide Median FELL by 10.28%

The Median Assault numbers INCREASED by 27.47% 
U.S. Assaults Median FELL by 15.8%

The Median Sexual Assault numbers INCREASED by 27.92% 
U.S Sexual Assaults Median FELL by 4.52% 

Then Median Robbery Numbers FELL by 11.51% 
U.S. Robbery Median FELL by 12.31%


If one merely looked at these statistical numbers as the basis of a success or failure of an experiment, one would note that there is virtually no difference in the decreased homicide Median between the control group (U.S) and the experimental group (Australia). 

Further, indications in the other Crime numbers of Assault and Sexual Assault have a wide disparity in the Median change with the negative aspect the Experimental group, by a Delta of nearly 43% for assaults and over 32% in Sexual assaults. 

There is little statistical difference between the control group and the Experimental group in Robbery Median, but a slight advantage to the Control group. 

Given these statistics, it is not proven that gun control has any bearing on homicide rates, positive or negative. It does suggest that other Crime rates may be negatively influenced by the banning of weapons to the Public.


----------



## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

WOW! Now that's got to be a first for a "first post"! Welcome to the forum *3Gundogs*! It is infuriating how skewed most reporting has become. Thank you for taking the time to investigate this topic.

You'll have to start a seperate thread and introduce yourself - and your 3 Gundogs! ;D


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> How much is the Big News Media being paid by their drug pushing sponsors to NOT ask the question, "*What was this kid prescribed, and when was it prescribed?"*


Throw the video game consoles in the trash. Select movies and shows that have your values. Get out in nature with your dogs and your kids, your grandkids, your neighbors kids that don't have dogs. Don't do ANY DRUGS.

IMHO, I think the relationship with a dog for a young boy is the most stabilizing influence I could ever think of. The issue is young men, not so much young women, in this society problem. 

Sunday morning, I saw fathers with their 9-year-old sons and others with their 12-year-old daughters out at Hastings Island at 7am on a cold December morning getting ready to go pheasant hunting. They were dressed the part. I went over and talked to them as we waited to be released into the fields. The kids talked loving about their dogs and spoke in glowing terms how well the dogs hunted. They both had nice looking labs.

The kids must have gotten up by 5am to be there but they were excited. I saw some and heard some of them in the fields later that morning. They were having a great time out in nature with their fathers and uncles.

I HATE DRUGS and have since I quit them at 19. There is mental illness genetically created, but there is social mental illness also. Drugs might help the first but why would we use them on the second class of illness?

So all we really have heard is GUNS ARE BAD. HOW ABOUT DRUGS are BAD. Can we not discuss that, or how marijuana is now legal in Washington and Colorado and the Federal Government will not do anything, do we just say: GUNS ARE BAD?

Sorry to ramble. I'm just so sad for most kids these days. I see them in town on a Saturday night. Lost and aimless. 

Maybe, like Rudy, I should take more time to make a difference in challenged children like he has chosen to. Maybe we can make a little difference. Maybe.

RBD


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

redbirddog said:


> How about someone from Australia commenting on this article that deeco shared.
> 
> I'd find it interesting since it stated: _*"In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upward of 90 percent."*_
> How is it 16 years later?
> ...


Hi mate. Without me doing some serious research to validate my opinion, i'm probably just offering exactly that....an opinion. I would need to do some research, as while I have serious doubts about the credibility and source of the articles crime figures, I cannot say for sure without that research.

However, it very much sounds like an article of fiction designed to prove an extreme point, more than a factual recollection of events and statistics of Australian crime, in particular firearm incidents. So I call BS RBD. 

I am a middle class, country raised, city careered guy. White, anglo saxon with an open mind to religion, race, sexual orientation and freedoms. I have a fairly conservative view on life. However, I have mixed in some.....err...interesting cirlces through my life and I know for a fact, that all the strict licencing laws in Oz have done, is create a brilliant black market for illegal weapons. I'm pretty certain that should I make a couple of phone calls and wave the required greenbacks in someone's face, I would have myself whatever weapon I should so desire. The problem here in Oz, is that the criminals have all the best weapons. Go talk to a member of the Queensland police and ask them off record how they feel about the motorcycle gangs up there. Truth be known, they are frightened of them. They often refuse to pull over members for fear of being shot. They allegedly have an array of nasty shite up their sleeves. But, really that's neither here nor there. What is important is that the article linked is more than likely a fantastic work of fiction.........


----------



## deeco3307 (Jun 13, 2010)

This is the report published in a peer reviewed journal. 

http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf


----------



## 3Gundogs (Dec 19, 2012)

I've read the paper. I can find nowhere in the report that identifies a 59% reduction in the homicide rate. One cannot merele read the first paragraph and understand this report. A few other statements of interest from the report:

"While these models can control for differences in death rates that are fixed geographically or in time, without a fuller *causal model of death rates, they cannot account for correlations that arise between firearm availability and death rates that are caused by a third factor*. For instance, a drought may lead to both increased firearm purchases to deal with wildlife encroaching on farmland and higher suicide rates of farmers due to increased bankruptcy. Or *an exogenous rise in drug trafficking could lead to increased purchases of firearms by worried householders and increased homicides due to gang-related conflict. Beyond this, many other socioeconomic variables have also been found to affect suicide and homicide,* and it is quite plausible that these same factors might affect firearms purchases. 5 Such factors may be unobservable to the econometrician.
*Moreover, there is little agreement in the literature as to an appropriate empirical model of either homicide or suicide rates, making it difficult to be sure that all relevant socio-economic factors have been addressed and therefore that estimates of the effect of firearms availability on death rates reflect a causal relationship*.
Further, it may be the case that places with both high firearm ownership and high firearm death rates have relatively low homicide and suicide deaths by non-firearm methods. This suggests *substitution* between methods"

What the report also indicates, but is not referenced in the Bee article, is that both Homicide rate and Suicide rate has been trending downward at roughly the same rate since the mid 1980's, more than a decade before the gun ban was enacted. (See page 517, graphs a and b). 

It's a very interesting report. In it they are careful to observe that they don't have the *causal* answer - as a good statstician should!


----------



## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

RBD THANKS

I am a child of great abuse, lighters beatings tied to a pole and far worse age 4 on

fear not

Sports saved my life and I NEVER REPEATED THE DIRTY CYCLES 

OVER 200 BLOOD TEST ONLY HIGH ON B12 ;D

I made it my mission to help and save all kids all colors

As my Father God saw it all

and a lifetime of mistakes

if we risk one dent for less

good enough for me

I holds little to Me
We can win some


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Rudy,

Your poems may be tough to read but I love them. 

Orphan at 12. Drug OD both. Lost years and salvation in understanding the meaning of life.

Christmas is a time of rebirth of the spirit of man. May we love each other for the good beings we are and cherish the love our Hungarian Pointers give us without reserve.

Sorry for being sappy. Christmas party wine flowing through the keyboard.

RBD


----------



## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

RBD and older then you some fun ;D

14 brain lesions press down on me
2 massive strokes

stage 2 melanomas 2x

site I am now loosing as well

biladeral nureo damages both feet and lower legs

I could flat line this server with the diseases I have fought for 12 long years

The story is this

Fight on give more then you get and just think 3 mayor brain surgeries did this to me lol

Humor now helps me and a dog who loves me more then any women did 

this facts I sinned of legend and the riddles are not a lack of education

there results of drills and chemicals they call medicine 

If your a hater you can never be great

Go out and get some and risk some

I am still the Nordic Warrior


----------

