# Fear aggression



## Zennie (Jun 7, 2013)

Hello,

we have a 14 months old boy. It was very hard at the beginning , but we are slowly progressing. We did dog classes (2 levels) and we also had private instructor. Changes for the better are visible, but there is still one big problem. Fear aggression. The dog does not like strangers, especially if someone surprise him or he feel trapped/limited (for example stairway and crate). The instructor (one of the best in our country) came to evaluate the situation. He said that, unfortunately, he fears that this dog is not for us. That there is nothing worng with dog and there is nothing wrong with us (or our work), just the match is not the best (among other things we lack determination, because the dog is stubborn and dominant). It broke my heart :'( I know that maybe true, but we love him, we are ready to work on that (we are already working) and we do not want him to find a new home.

So, I read somewhere that sometimes is best that the socialization of dogs that are fear aggresive is done by someone else. That would be the instructor. For example instructor take the dog home and work with him for a month (until the dog is little more relaxed around stranger). Than the owner take dog back and continue to work on this issues. What is your opinion about this? Does anyone have any experience with this kind of training?

Before you start judging – it is not that we are not prepared to work with our dog, we do it all the time. We are also on NILIF method, we try to socialize him by slowly puting him in stressful situations, walking him in crowded spaces ... but the situation that involves limited space is not improving.


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## Nelly (Feb 7, 2013)

Hi Zennie, firstly I'm really sorry to hear what you're going through, it must be hard and good on you for being determined to help your boy.

I have no first-hand experience with fear aggression but if an experienced trainer can help your boy by taking him for a month and having the time to dedicate to really helping him then I see only good in that as it could really limit a fear aggression-based accident in the future with horrible consequences for the dog.

Good luck


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## stryker (Dec 9, 2012)

A week or so ago I'm not sure who but someone on here was having aggression problems with there dog and sent him back to the breeder for pack re-socialization or something like that and it was successful. Someone will know the thread


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Has the dog been bitten or been in a fight? If yes, what were the circumstances? 
(I met a dog who would not eat from a dog bowl because it was attacked when it was small. If the owner spread the food on a mat, he ate verociously)

How did you socialize the dog and why?

How much daily interaction between you and the dog and what kind of interaction? 

Do you handle the dog?, massage, pet, groom, stick around, touch the food bowl when she's eating, feed her front your hand.

Now that it turned out this way ... How do you freel about non treat based training? 





Zennie said:


> The instructor (one of the best in our country) came to evaluate the situation. He said that, unfortunately, he fears that this dog is not for us. That there is nothing worng with dog and there is nothing wrong with us (or our work), just the match is not the best (among other things we lack determination, because the dog is stubborn and dominant).


 
Well, if the current instructor is one of the best, there is nothing wrong with you and there is nothing wrong with the dog... there are only two more options.. change instructors or give the dog to someone who can build up the dog's confidence. Second option may take a long time and probably should seriously consider leaving the dog with the new owner, IMO.


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## mlwindc (Feb 8, 2013)

I would have no qualms with sending my dog to stay with a good trainer for a month. It's a good reset by a professional and a good option for future happiness of all parties


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

The thread someone was referring to above is called " Our breeder wants us to consider rehoming." sorry I don't know how to make links :-\

Our 17 month old is very fearful. Around 12 months we knew we had to make a change because he was getting to the point that I was nervous to take him to restaurants and new places. We tried some new training methods on our own that didn't lead to much change, then at 14 months we took him down to the breeder's house for some intervention. Our issues were not severe, he didn't bite or attack. He would bark at new things and new people, showed some leash reactivity, then if we were someplace unfamiliar he would shut down and lie down. 

We stayed at the breeder's for a 2 hr training session then the plan was to implement some of the changes at home. It ended up working and Miles is a whole new dog now. We take him everywhere will us (all restaurants/ bars, vacations, friend's houses) and he is much more confident. We also signed him up for daycare once a week which I think has helped him become more confident with new people. 

Had the initial session not worked, he was going to go stay with the breeder for a little bit so she could help work through some of the fear issues and then train us on how to follow through.

We have also tried the BAT method, which has helped him work through fear of cars coming up behind him and the dump truck.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Here you are...
http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,8256.msg62975.html#msg62975

Copy/paste ;D


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

Thanks Data. I think you fixed my iphone picture download too. One day I will catch up in the technological world.


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## Zennie (Jun 7, 2013)

datacan said:


> Has the dog been bitten or been in a fight? If yes, what were the circumstances?
> (I met a dog who would not eat from a dog bowl because it was attacked when it was small. If the owner spread the food on a mat, he ate verociously)
> 
> How did you socialize the dog and why?
> ...


Datacan, 

He has not been bitten or been in a fight. When he was younger, we were trying to take him everywhere, but it was really hard, because he was disobedient, wild. This is when we went wrong. It was easier to take him out in a morning and at night, when there was not a lot people/bikers/dogs around. For some time we did not notice any problem. Well...there is :-[ A big one 

How do we handle dog? We pet him everyday, I am with him almost all day long, playing, going on walks or sitting on couch. I can take away his toys/treats/bowl of water away, he does not mind. Also I am feeding him only from hand.

We do not know what to do. We love him but we really do not know what is wrong. Is he defending us or he is not feeling safe with us...It is really confusing and irritating...and also sad. We are afraid that he will bite someone just because we are not a good leaders for this particular dog.


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## lonestar (Jun 2, 2013)

I agree that a professional should be sought. I'm not so sure about having your boy go live with him, though. The issues are with you, and removing you from the treatment doesnt make sense, even if the dog responds to the trainers home, the chances are the issues will return when he comes back to you and your routine with him unless those are evaluated and changed, too (sending the dog back to the breeder for re socialization works best with puppies when theyre still impressionable, what you have now sounds much more fixed in his personality and not as responsive to this type of intervention). My experience has been that these types of radical interventions do not work, even if there's something appealing about sending a "Bad" dog away and getting a "Good"one in return. I'd get another opinion from another professional trainer.

Also, it's unclear exactly what types of "Aggressive" behaviors he's exhibiting. Aggressive behavior involves a clear threat of imminent attack..or an outright attack itself. Is that happening? If not, what you might have is an overly anxious dog. The difference is important, b/c the treatment that results is very different.

Let's start with a more detailed description of the actual behaviors and the events/circumstances that seem to cause them....


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## Zennie (Jun 7, 2013)

lonestar, thank you for your opinion. I would not send dog away and than expect to be a GOOD diffrent boy when he would come back. No way, I understand that problem is in me (us) but as I read some articles the idea is desensitization in "plain" envorioment.

When I say aggressive behaviour I mean loud barking, pulling towards the person (I do not know english word - my dictionary says "jerking"  - he violently want to get to the strangers). When he is too deep in that "state of ming", he seems like piranha. That happens when we come across someone on stairway for example. When he is in his crate and the guest come, he is the same. Barking and bumping in to crate's sides towards guest. When he is off leash or out of the crate, he barks and sniffs person. It is OK till person does not make any noise or look him in the eyes and speak to him. Then he starts to bark again and even jump. He also do small nagging bites (It does not seems like serious bite, but just warning "I don't like you, go away, you annoy me!!". 

If I say "NO", "STOP", he does not listen. When we are outside on walks (on leash) he can ignore passersby - we also reward him.


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## lonestar (Jun 2, 2013)

Zennie, may I ask what country/culture you are in?

I'm still concerned and confused by your use of the term "Aggressive". Pulling towards a stranger in and of itself isnt aggressive. Dogs will naturally do that, and Vizslas especially given their friendly and out going nature. There are training techniques to address that, but they are different than a clear aggressive lunge, teeth out and ready to bite.


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## Zennie (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm from Central Europe. 

It is not only pulling towards stranges, it looks like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF7ihJUsVHE 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmi9-aHQtLM
or/and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAzqauy_6oY 

In crate he is even more driven and aggressive.


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## adrino (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm no expert but I just watched those videos and the exception of the last one they are not aggressive IMO. The two vizslas are not aggressive at all. The one behind the fence is just not happy of someone approaching to its territory and since its behind a fence it cannot freely meet with the person on the other side. All it does it barks amd it's rather unsure than aggressive. The one at the door... Again it's not even snarling, the way the owner holds the dog just reinforces the dog to carry on barking and the tension on the collar doesn't help. 
About the small dog... I don't know who holds that leash but its an idiot! How many times does he yanks that dog??? I'm not surprised he can't snap the dog out of that state, he just totally escalated it. 
I would ignore any of these videos and observe my own dog instead and learn and understand its behaviour. Watch for signs and try to stop it happening before it even happens. 

My vizsla too has fear aggressive tendencies and its a continuos work in progress. She also leash reactive. I think that's what you have too. Put a search in google and you will find plenty useful articles about leash reactive dogs. 
Although its not a solution you might as well get a muzzle for your dog. It doesn't cure the problem but in the meantime it gives you piece of mind when you're out and about with him. Like that you can take him out other times of the day and put him into different situations without worrying he might bite someone. 
Also you need to start to be more confident, he can behave like that cause he senses fear in you. If you're afraid while you're walking him he will feel that tension in you and tenses up even more. Try to keep him on a short but not tense leash. Giving more leash will give him more space to do whatever he wants. Instead you need to control him. Have a purposeful walk, know what you want and where you're going and go. Don't follow the dog, he should follow you. Let him only pee and sniff when you want and not when he wants. 
Also give him more exercise, he's a high energy dog and might not get enough energy out of himself which can lead to behavioural problems. 

There's no quick solution for this but we have already made a huge progress with Elza. We watch her carefully what triggers her fear and don't let her get into that state and we praise her when she behaves well.

I hope you'll find a solution, wish you all the best.


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## lonestar (Jun 2, 2013)

Zennie, the V's in those vids are not aggressive. If you look at the first vid, the owner is holding his V back with his index finger under the collar...that's a pretty well controlled Vizsla. Barking at visitors at the door is NOT by itself an aggressive response, he's merely responding to a new person and announcing his arrival, this is normal. No growling, no teeth, no ears pinned back, nothing at all that would indicate imminent attack. Ditto with the other vids, too. The V behind the gate in Europe stopped barking when something was thrown towards it. A Vizsla on the attack would NOT stop...I have seen this, you really do remember a Vizsla in full attack mode, it is a frightful site.... actually the act of throwing something at it would incite it further.

I think the issue here might be your expectations, I think you need to read up n the Vizsla and get a sense of whats normal for the breed (See the Caufman book, "Versatile Vizsla"), and get yourself a good trainer who can help you better interact with the dog.

Feel free to post a vid of your actual dog for further explanation.


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## TAIsMom (Mar 7, 2013)

I have to agree with Adrino and Lonestar on this one. They didn't look aggressive at all. Especially the first vid.

I might be a bit of a Pollyanna here (ever optimistic), but I take that as good news. It will take some training and work, but might not be as bad as you're fearing. If he starts feeling you tense up in a situation (because you think he's going to react in a negative fashion) then that might be triggering the response?? 

Maybe get a second opinion from another trainer.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

;D ;D ;D HI, loving the second video ;D 

He's bored and way under-stimulated take it for long walks at heel. Boredom is rather boring, LOL


Nem beteg, csak nincs mit csinalyon. Azert ugat


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## Rudy (Oct 12, 2012)

These Dogs are reacting in fear not aggression 

fact

Have not touch the suds since 91' ;D

I may soon :

Biggens with ring skills make poor drunks and Lawyers fat 8) ;D


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## Zennie (Jun 7, 2013)

aaaaa, it is aggresive behaviour, you all have to belive me  He is growling and his lips are moving, almost vibrating, but there is not alot of teeth. Only thing that is stopping him from biting a stranger is leash or crate grids. Or it seems. I do not want to test him. 

There was also incident. One night we were in local park and he was off leash playing with 2 dogs. Suddenly a drunk guy came from the dark and our Vizsla run to him and started to pulling pants. That was 6 weeks ago. We did call him and he came, but still..

And yes, I will upload video soon. Great idea;D


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