# Help gun shy!



## zigzag

Ok so my new V is 16weeks today. I took him out to his training field for some scented decoy training. He did great. He has been off leash training in this field since I got him at 10 weeks. I would say he is a miled mannerd V. But has the hunt in him. I want to introuduce him to the gun. I have a paint ball gun that gives off a good pop when empty and think that will be a good start. I get treats run some fetch games with treats all is good. Throw the decoy with phesent scent, and fire. He gets decoy and turns all timmed. Goes right to his kennel. WTF did I just break my gun dog?


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## redbirddog

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/06/letter-from-jack-sharkey.html

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/06/get-yourself-great-trainer.html

Zigzag. Stop. You haven't ruined him yet but....

!6 weeks is VERY young and you may be in a "fear period" that dogs go through. Hunting is still a year away at the best. 

If you can find a pointing dog trainer do it. 

RBD


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## Aimless1

One negative experience will not make your pup gun shy. But is sure does not help. Not sure how you introduced the "pop" but if you fired over the pup you did the wrong thing.

I didn't look at the links but they probably offer good advice. Go back to training without introducing the gun. Read all you can on how to introduce gunfire and loud noises. Choose a plan that makes sense and start over. If you have another incident you will need to find a gun dog trainer that specializes in curing gun shy dogs.

I have prepared my pups for the gun but not introduced gunfire (cap pistol, blank pistol, either .410 or.28 gauge) until they're on birds. If they're juiced up with bird scent gun fire is not likely to be much of a distraction.

Good luck!


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## KashagLake

We had Holly professionally trained, we had never gun trained a dog before and we wanted to make sure she was trained properly. 
Our trainer also started her off on a blank pistol, however its very important to keep your distance from the dog at first then slowly move closer & closer; (judging the dogs reaction) & always associate gun shot with positive reinforcement (bird). Holly was introduced to live birds first...then guns. She started with wing clipped pigeons, then slowly moved on from there. We can now shoot right over Holly, however it was a long process with lots of training to get to that point. I'd do some more research or look into a trainer.


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## datacan

did not check link the link I posted above so I replaced it. While I have not trained Sam to hunt I realize that's what these dogs must do to live a happy and meaningful life.
I am doing the basic gun dog obedience training and like what George Hickox is doing (he reminds me of my grandfather - looks similar from a distance):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO_J_wxliyM


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## redbirddog

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/10/dont-make-your-gun-dog-gun-shy.html

Datacan,

Felt obliged to add that to my blog. Great find.

Don't ruin a good gun dog by being in a hurry.

Lots of time and lots of birds. Really the only way.

RBD


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## Aimless1

George Hickox was pretty well known as a great grouse/wookcock hunting trainer back in the day. No doubt he can successfully train bird dogs.

Redbirddog, no doubt the best advice any one training a dog can take to heart ... Don't rush it! Each pup/dog trains at their own pace and there are no schedules to keep.


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## Linescreamer

Get him back on the horse ASAP. Take him to the same spot with LIVE BIRDS. Let him hunt, chase and retrieve. Don't make it too easy for him but he needs to hunt them down via scent. Pick a nice calm day. Also, don't fire over him for at least a couple more sessions or until he gets real bird crazy! During this time leave the gun around so he can see it. For the first pop he should be 20 yards away from the blank or paint gun and ON a bird. Use a helper. If that goes OK, move in to 18 yards and again when he is ON a live bird. I would also make allot of noise around the house....like when he is chewing on a bone or similar.


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## datacan

One thing I am a apprehensive about is the way Hickox is teaching the forced retrieve. I am not a big fan of the toe hitch approach. But others are worse they pinch the ear. 
IMO male Vizsla can take quite a bit of discomfort but will remember the bad experience. I don't like the look Sam gives "you hurt me, why did you do that? I am not like the other dogs."
I am looking for something more subtle.

No doubt, Hickox's approach to guns is a good one. He concentrates dog on the birds and nothing else.


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## Aimless1

I've always had foot hunting dogs, not hunt test performers and no field trial prospects. Three of the dogs had no interest in retrieving and I could live with that. English Pointers are generally required to point but not to retrieve.

"Nash Buckingham once observed that if he had an otherwise excellent bird dog which did not retrieve, he could walk an additional hundred feet to pick up the shot bird – noting that this additional exercise was inconsequential compared to the many miles which he typically covered in a day of hunting"

Quest is a natural retriever and the best thing that happened was hunting with a friend and his brag GSP. The first pheasant fell and his dog went and made the retrieve. The second one Quest retrieved and would not let the GSP near it. It was a race to see who could retrieve after that. Quest retrieves birds with gusto now.

I'm not a fan of force breaking to retrieve. If you're able to find an affordable[/color] copy of "Common Sense Grouse and Woodcock Dog Training" by Roy Strickland, do your self a favor and buy it. Try seeking out information about natural retrieving. Nice link http://www.superiorpointers.com/retrieving.html. If you don't know the founder of the famous Elhew line of pointers was Robert Wehle who wrote "Wing & Shot". You probably noticed that Elhew is Wehle spelled backwards.


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## zigzag

Thanks everyone for the great links and input. Yesterday I got a bit trigger happy but it was a milestone kinda day Rojo was 16 weeks to the day. Training has been a plesure, he really does amaze me with his natural abilitys. I will confess I have been using Larry Muellers book. Speed train your own dog. And while I made some adjustments to the training regamine especially in regards to introducing the gun. I did not like the idea of live fire at such a young age. Rojo has pointed live pigions in the field & held point for 12 sec. No check cord has been used to date. He rtrvs full size canvas decoys with phesent sent from 20yrds to hand. I adjusted the gun senario to a paint ball gun in the back yard with no live birds, I did this to protect him from my inexperince. I left the gun next to his food bowl last night and he is doing great today. No gun fire just sent training and lots of playing.


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## datacan

a cap gun might also do the trick. 

@ Aimless1 many thanks for the link. Nice read.


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## zigzag

Yes perhapse a cap gun. I have a 1/2 cord of wood to split tomorrow maybe that sound will get him comfortable.


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## zigzag

Just wanted to reopen this thread, I thought I would share how far Rojo and I have come. We have been using a Professional bird dog trainer for 4 weeks now. Today we moved from the blank 22 pistol to a Shotgun at about 150yards away, Rojo scented and held point on a pigeon. The bird was released and the Shotgun fired. We did this a few times moving closer with the gun until we reached 35yards away. He did very well and showed only a slight bit of hesitation to fire at 35yards. So we stop-ed the training and plan to resume next week. I just wanted to thank every one for all the great advice. I could have potentially ruined my dog with my inexperience. 
Great Forum!


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## redbirddog

Great news Zigzag.

I kick myself everytime I think of taking Chloe out pheasant hunting at 4 months old with friends. Four 12 gauge shotguns going off over her head screwed her up but good.

With Bailey I made sure I wasn't going to make that mistake again. Professional field dog trainers love to work with owners that want to do it right. So much easier to do it early right then fix the problem later.

RBD


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## Ozkar

For all you shooters, remind yourselves each time that shooting closely over your V will casue them to go deaf. I have SOOOO many hunting friends with deaf Springers and GSP's. Poor things. If you do shoot over your dog, make sure you introduce hand signals to them before they go deaf. Believe me, it will be a godsend later in life.


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## redbirddog

http://youtu.be/e4L6Zpg9klw

I like my little 20 gauge with light charges for pheasant hunting. The 20 gauge over - under is not that loud. Nothing like a pump action 12 gauge with heavy charges.

The video is a 2 gauge shotgun used to duck hunt during the middle of the nineteen century to supply troops and the hotels on the eastern sea board. 

Can you image the nose that gun made.

RBD


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## Aimless1

ZigZag, seems like you're making solid progress. Good call using a professional to help you train your pup. I wish I had started that way with my first pups.

Ozkar, it's not only the dogs losing their hearing. Think of the shooters! However, you would be mistaken to believe that most shots are taken over the top of the dog. I generally approach my dog from the side and to the front so he can see me. Most shots are taken with the bird going away from the dog or crossing. Very few are actually taken over the dog.


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## zigzag

I never considered dog hearing loss. It makes sense that hearing loss would be a problem with gun dogs, I will research this a bit more. Right now I plan to shoot a 16ga Browning Pump Shotgun. Hunting Grouse. I guess its one more thing to consider.


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## Ozkar

Aimless1 said:


> ZigZag, seems like you're making solid progress. Good call using a professional to help you train your pup. I wish I had started that way with my first pups.
> 
> Ozkar, it's not only the dogs losing their hearing. Think of the shooters! However, you would be mistaken to believe that most shots are taken over the top of the dog. I generally approach my dog from the side and to the front so he can see me. Most shots are taken with the bird going away from the dog or crossing. Very few are actually taken over the dog.


Sorry...what was that??? Could you repeat it please??? Actually, i'm not deaf yet....... but do have industrial deafness from early childhood shooting and then continued motorcycle riding. (An hour at 100kph in a M/C helmet has been recorded as equivelent to a years industrial noise.)

It's more my vision which is crap. Mum always told me to stop as it would make me blind. I did stop eventually and now only have to wear glasses!! 

Depends what your shooting and from where mate. It's a bit hard to get out of earshot in a tinnie. (Tinnie is a coloquial term for a small aluminium boat.)


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