# Serum



## madkour005 (Feb 4, 2016)

Hello all, I'm new to the forum and looking for some help with my vizsla pup. i've searched the forum and haven't been able to find anything specific to my question. I'm a first time dog owner and I'm trying to learn as much as I can to help my pup out. 

Here is some background on what is going on:

Biscuit is almost 5 months old. Around 4 months (right after he got his last set of shots and started going outside on a daily basis) he developed some hives/bumps on one of of his back legs and side. I looked through the forum to see if this was a common issue with V's and found a couple helpful posts on allergies and the bumps that come along with them. The bumps weren't nearly as bad as some of the pictures I had seen on the forum but I took Biscuit to the vet anyways to 1) make sure it was allergies; 2) get the right dosage for the zyrtec; and 3) see if the vet had any answers as to what he might be allergic to.

Based on what we told the vet and where the bumps were located on Biscuit's body the vet did not think it was a food allergy or an allergy to his shampoo or a detergent. The vet said it was probably just seasonal allergies and recommended zyrtec and a topical hydrocortisone cream to spot treat the bumps. We also had to put the poor guy in a cone so couldn't bite at the bumps and risk an infection. We changed his food anyways back to Diamond Naturals Puppy food, its what the breeder had him on before we got him and what we fed him for a month or so until we ran out and switched him to another food since we couldn't find Diamond Naturals at any pet store in our area.

After a couple weeks of zyrtec (which he is still on), new food, and spot treating with the cream his bumps had pretty much gone away. 

A couple days after that I took him to Calabasas (hotter and dustier enviroment than were we live in Huntington Beach) on a hike. He broke out pretty bad around his rear leg and neck after the hike. I'm not sure if it was the new enviroment or the new snacks (Natural Balance Limited Ingredient venison and sweet potato) I had bought and gave him that day. 

We bathed him, spot treated the bumps, and stopped the new treats immediately. It didn't work this time, the bumps on his neck didn't go away and have spread to his back (concentrated between the shoulder blades) and and a few between his toes over the last two weeks. I called the vet who wasn't really helpful and suggested we go see a dermatologist who according to the vet will test him to determine what he is allergic to and create a serum that will cure him.

From there I did a little research on the dermatology place and the reviews are not so good. Most of the complaints in the bad reviews claim that the treatment made their pup really sick and even caused extreme hair loss. I also called the place to try to figure out what this would cost me and even though the lady would not give me a straight answer over the phone it looks like its going to cost a couple thousand dollars with no guarantee of success. 

Has anyone here heard of this type of serum treatment and/or tried it with their pup? Also is it actually possible for the dermatologist to determine that he is allergic to? There are so many bad reviews on the place and the serum that I would hate to put my pup through this especially if its not going to help. At the same time, we are desperate to get our pup the care/treatment he needs so any input on this will be greatly appreciated. 

-Mark


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

Hi Mark,

I'm not a vet, mind you, and you should always seek the advice of one in situations like this...if the ones you're going to (or have consulted with on the phone) don't give you a sense of competence then keep looking. Not all vets are alike, and it takes time to find a really good one. It's not the best way to find one, when you have a situation, but at least you'll get a very quick idea of the new vet's competence. 

That said, in my experience, the descriptions of the events that led to poor Biscuit's symptoms, as well as the pics, would suggest to me not some internal reaction to something (like an ingredient in a snack or a change of food), but rather some contamination/exposure to something external, like Fire Ants/bugs or some kind of plant, etc. That this happened when you started to hike and/or explore the world would suggest to me it's a reaction to something he came into contact with outside, rather than ingested.

The first step here for me would be to treat the symptoms directly, with some ointment and maybe an antihistamine to reduce the swelling and itch. I'd bathe him in one of the soothing shampoos, not the regular puppy shampoo designed to clean.

If you think it's a food allergy, try switching one thing at a time and see the results, if you stop/change everything at once you won't be able to determine what it was that caused the problem, making it harder to avoid it in the future. 

But the first step for me would be to find a good vet.


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## nymeria (Jan 18, 2016)

Is there any chance this is poison oak? I'm from ventura and spend a lot of time in Malibu creek and have hiked a lot in the area and it's around. Apparently reactions are uncommon in dogs but if it's anything like people it could take 2-3 weeks to resolve. I got some poison oak this weekend out hiking.

Is biscuit itchy?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

If it was still spreading during a two week period, I would think he is still coming into contact with whatever he is allergic to, or it has turned into a skin infection. It's not uncommon for dogs with allergies to get secondary infections. 
Next you might try a different allergy medicine, while researching other dermatologist in your area.


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## madkour005 (Feb 4, 2016)

Gingerling said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> I'm not a vet, mind you, and you should always seek the advice of one in situations like this...if the ones you're going to (or have consulted with on the phone) don't give you a sense of competence then keep looking. Not all vets are alike, and it takes time to find a really good one. It's not the best way to find one, when you have a situation, but at least you'll get a very quick idea of the new vet's competence.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the response! 

I agree it probably isn't the food but feeling like a helpless parent I tried to fix the things I could control like his food, shampoo and the detergent used wash his things. 

I left a few details out of the original post to keep the post from getting too long. The hike was roughly a week and a half ago and the original post hike breakout was on his hind leg and around the front part of his next. Those bumps went away as the bumps on his back (pictured) popped out about 3 days ago. When I got up this morning I noticed the bumps on his back have reduced significantly in swelling. I'll post some pictures when I get home. So I think its very possible that something is biting him. He's on nexgaurd and I've never actually seen fleas on him. That being said I take him to a dog beach near us 3-4 times a weeks so its very possible something is biting him and he is very sensitive to it. There are lots of other vizslas that play at this dog beach and I haven't noticed any bumps on them. I know not all dogs react the same way to things but it can't hurt to ask the owners if they have had any of these issues in the past. 

Given how fast the bumps seem to show up and go away, is it possible that its acne? Can dogs get acne?


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## madkour005 (Feb 4, 2016)

nymeria said:


> Is there any chance this is poison oak? I'm from ventura and spend a lot of time in Malibu creek and have hiked a lot in the area and it's around. Apparently reactions are uncommon in dogs but if it's anything like people it could take 2-3 weeks to resolve. I got some poison oak this weekend out hiking.
> 
> Is biscuit itchy?


If it was poison oak I probably would have got it too, He sat in my lap the whole way home and rubs up on me all the time. 

He's very itchy. 

The bumps have gone down since yesterday. based on how fast the bumps show up and go away I think he's 1) allergic to something in the air (it is allergy season here) 2) something is biting him or 3) he's got acne. 

I'm in the process of trying to find a decent pet dermatologist in our area.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Hey Mark,

I'm up in Encino (so similar conditions, and not too far from Calabasas). 

My Chester just turned 2 years old this week. At Biscuit's age (about 5 months) Chester would sometimes get bumps that look very similar to the ones in your top photo, only he got far fewer (maybe 2 or 3 at a time). And he also had some bumps similar to the other photos.

In the main, these have disappeared (and for quite sometime). But occasionally one does pop up, only to go away quickly.

I wish I had some answer as to how to make them go away, I don't really. I would (and do) sometimes rub Chester with coconut oil, and he is raw fed, but I don't know that either was a "cure."

I tend to believe there are environmental allergens that he's largely out grown, who knows?

I hope Biscuit has a similar experience and grows out of it. Bumps are now very rare here.

We are envious of your proximity to the Huntington Beach dog beach. We make the trip down as often as possible, as Chester loves your beach!

Best,

Bill


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

madkour005 said:


> Gingerling said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Mark,
> ...


Dogs have different glands in their skin so they technically can't get acne. Rash, yes. But not human acne.

I certainly understand the response to feeling helpless and not in control. So much of what we often hear in life is a blind response to the personal need for control, rather than a thoughtful response to the actual conditions presented. That you're aware of your own emotional response shows you can manage it and not let it interfere with your judgement. It really doesn't seem like a food allergy, it looks to be environmental.

If he went into the water when you were at the beach, that might be the culprit. The water is teeming with all sorts of bacteria and other things that can easily account for the skin outbreak. 

I really think there are two separate yet interrelated issues here: The first is your need to find a good vet, and the other is obviously the resolution of this particular skin issue. Even if you go the dermatologist route, you're still left with a vet who either doesn't have much experience or patience with these sorts of things, and that doesn't bode well for the future. You really want a vet who treats you and Biscuit like you're his only patients, zeroing in on the symptoms and offering treatments until the symptoms are resolved.

If Biscuit is itchy, I'd call that vet and get his OK to give him a Benadryl, it will stop the itch and it should lower the bumps.

You cna treat the symptom even though you might not know the exact cause of the problem.


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## madkour005 (Feb 4, 2016)

The swelling and bums have gone down considerably since yesterday. The pictures I posted yesterday were taken yesterday morning, the one I'm attaching below was taken this afternoon. He's not 100% but considerably better than yesterday. I really hope he's not reacting to being in the water. He loves the beach and loves going in the water. I think I'm going to start by holding off on the beach until the bumps clear up and try to find a good vet in the meantime.

Thanks everyone for the help. I will keep you posted as things get better or if they get worse


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## cuddlebuglove (Apr 27, 2014)

I am glad that such knowlegabl


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## cuddlebuglove (Apr 27, 2014)

The above post got cut off so I shall be brief. U.C. Davis in Northern California is well known for Veterinarian medicine and may be able to refer you to a Vet Dermatologist in Southern California.

I am praying for Biscuit who is a handsome Vizsla. Take care of yourself too; lots of experienceducation people here. I am still learning.

Please keep us apprised of his progress.

Blessings, Cuddlebuglove.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

madkour005 said:


> The swelling and bums have gone down considerably since yesterday. The pictures I posted yesterday were taken yesterday morning, the one I'm attaching below was taken this afternoon. He's not 100% but considerably better than yesterday. I really hope he's not reacting to being in the water. He loves the beach and loves going in the water. I think I'm going to start by holding off on the beach until the bumps clear up and try to find a good vet in the meantime.
> 
> Thanks everyone for the help. I will keep you posted as things get better or if they get worse


With one of the greatest dog-beaches at your doorstep it could be a cruel fate if it was related to his problems. For what it is worth, Chester never had issue after a day at your beach, but every V is different. 

I'd make notes (keep a journal) to help you see if there is any pattern to the outbreak of bumps.

Bill


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

Do you rinse him off when you get home? Just wiping down/rinsing off Dexter after he's been outside helps his environmental allergies a lot.


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## madkour005 (Feb 4, 2016)

dextersmom said:


> Do you rinse him off when you get home? Just wiping down/rinsing off Dexter after he's been outside helps his environmental allergies a lot.


After the first out break I started bathing him right after taking him to the beach. If we just go on a walk or for a run I don't bath wipe or rinse him off. Wipe down with a dry or well cloth?


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## madkour005 (Feb 4, 2016)

Spy said:


> madkour005 said:
> 
> 
> > The swelling and bums have gone down considerably since yesterday. The pictures I posted yesterday were taken yesterday morning, the one I'm attaching below was taken this afternoon. He's not 100% but considerably better than yesterday. I really hope he's not reacting to being in the water. He loves the beach and loves going in the water. I think I'm going to start by holding off on the beach until the bumps clear up and try to find a good vet in the meantime.
> ...


Indeed It would. He loves the beach and has made so many friends there.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

madkour005 said:


> After the first out break I started bathing him right after taking him to the beach. If we just go on a walk or for a run I don't bath wipe or rinse him off. Wipe down with a dry or well cloth?


I would try rinsing him after the beach (no shampoo - in case he's having a reaction to that) and wiping down with a wet rag if he's been outside a lot (we do it if the dogs have been running through fields, hunting under trees, etc.). Don't scrub during baths/rinses and also towel them dry in the direction of the hair. I also like to wipe down with a rag soaked in diluted Hibiscrub/Hibiclens if I know he's bound to get an outbreak of hives (does the trick for our guy every time). I believe TexasRed uses diluted iodine for the same purpose and has luck with that, too. Our guy does get more traditional hives though, not bumps like your V.

I'm assuming a "serum" would be a type of sublingual immunotherapy/allergy shots. If Zyrtec/other allergy meds are not working for him and neither are baths, I would suspect you might have to go this route. But find a great allergist - not all are created equal!

You might also ask your vet about Apoquel. It's a new allergy medicine that's brought relief to a lot of allergic Vizslas... but it can be hard to get a hold of in the US.


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## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

You might also think about putting a towel over his bed and washing it frequently. And while it may not be a popular idea, vacuum the main room where he spends time once more per week than you currently do. 

These two actions should keep him from lying in any allergens tracked into the house.


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## tknafox2 (Apr 2, 2013)

Just passing on this old thread to see if it helps.
http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,19865.msg133713.html#msg133713

I live in RPV, and you may have this weed, and it might be your problem?? 
Also, I don't believe the sea water is at all harmful, to much salt and iodine, which are both very healing. The ocean at Huntington is pretty clean ( I Believe?)
We used a canine dermatologist in the valley... very expensive, with little to zero good outcome. I would stick to what
you are doing with your system of elimination. If you think it might be something biting him, try a little essential oil of citronella, put a few drops in your
palm, rub them together, and lightly rub it over his body, before you go into grassy places. ceder wood oil is good for bedding and blankets. 

My Weimy had a terrible problem with her feet, and we discovered it was due to lawn fertilize and weed killers. 

Just one more thought... when my V pup got his first rattlesnake vaccine, he developed a big reaction to the injection site. 
You were saying that you pup is fully vetted now, just a shot in the dark, that he may be having some reaction to the vaccines, maybe exacerbated by sun and dirt, or just exercise? 

Your Pup Ia adorable!!


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## cuddlebuglove (Apr 27, 2014)

Any updates on Biscuit? Please advise. My friend is also praying for him too.


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## madkour005 (Feb 4, 2016)

Sorry for the delayed response, we had a very hectic weekend. 

I took him to the park Thursday evening to play some fetch and rinsed him off when he got home. We must have been at the park for no more than 30 mins and he didn't lay or roll in the grass. I got up Friday morning and his bumps had gotten way worse and even spread to his leg. I called a few vets in the area and they either didn't deal with allergies or didn't want to speak to me over the phone. I ended up taking him to a vet that I found on yelp with really good reviews, a couple of which stated that he help their dogs (not Vizslas) with allergy issues. 

The vet did a scrap test which came back negative for specific parasites (blanking on the names of the parasites) and he did a blood test. He also prescribed us prednisone and cefpodoxime as to help biscuit out while we wait for the blood results to come back from the lab. 

I gave him half a prednisone that night and when he got up the next morning the bumps where pretty much gone. This is his third day on the meds and bumps are completely gone. I'm not thrilled about giving him a steroid but I'm glad it cleared up his bumps almost immediately. I called the vet today to lethim know the bumps had gone down and he has us cutting the prednisone down to half a pill every other day for the rest of this week and stopping. 

I haven't been taking to the park or beach anymore, he only goes outside to pee or get in the car to get to my office. Since Friday I have been taking him to my office after hours to get his running and exercise in. We have about 30 yards of carpeted hallway I can used to play fetch with him. This is obviously not a long term solution but until we know what is causing his bumps Its going to have to do. 

I'm thinking about taking him for a long walk to night to see how he does.

Side note: do vizslas shed a lot when the weather changes from cold to hot? I noticed today that he is shedding more than normal. Its usually 70 here and its been 85 the last couple days. The vet said it was a combination of the steroid and the weather. Hopefully cutting the steroid down will help with eh shedding. 

Thank you again everyone for the advise. I will keep you posted on how things go.


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## cuddlebuglove (Apr 27, 2014)

I am glad that the steroid is working, the poor, brave little fella I am mixed with sorrow for you over this trial, but rest assured you're not alone. We all care about you and Biscuit.

I hope that UC Davis can advise you on what to do, especially in the way of a sister university nearer to you that specializes in Vet health care. Thank you for responding, I am sorry if I.seemed impatient; please just take whatever time you need and respond when you're able.

Holding Biscuit and Bailey near our hearts....

Very Respectfully,
Cuddlebuglove.


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## madkour005 (Feb 4, 2016)

cuddlebuglove said:


> I am glad that the steroid is working, the poor, brave little fella I am mixed with sorrow for you over this trial, but rest assured you're not alone. We all care about you and Biscuit.
> 
> I hope that UC Davis can advise you on what to do, especially in the way of a sister university nearer to you that specializes in Vet health care. Thank you for responding, I am sorry if I.seemed impatient; please just take whatever time you need and respond when you're able.
> 
> ...


No need to apologize, if anything its comforting to see so many people care about how biscuit is doing and how willing everyone is to help!

I have not contacted UC Davis yet, if the current vet does not help with the allergy problem UC Davis will likely be our next step.


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## cuddlebuglove (Apr 27, 2014)

Thanks for taking out precious time to respond. I was quite exhausted today so tonight is my first time online. Last night my friend and I prayed for Biscuit and Bailey too . I hope that wellness is on the way.

Sincerely,
Cuddlebuglove


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## madkour005 (Feb 4, 2016)

Just a quick update on Biscuit, 

Since I last posted I've taken him on a couple long walks and to the beach a few times. After every walk I wipe him down with a wet cloth and wipe his paws with puppy wipes. I've also been using a towel that is replaced or washed every few days on his bed. As for the beach, I've been bathing him after each time we go to the beach. No new bumps or hives! 

We also got his blood test back today aaaaaand he's pretty much allergic to everything. The test rates allergies from 0 to 6. Zero being no allergy to 6 being the extreme case. Thankfully none of Biscuits allergies are above a 3. 

Here's a list of what he's allergic to (btw I don't know what half this stuff looks like so I'm going to have to do a lot of googling to know what to avoid): 

Level 3 allergies: 
-Goldenrod weeds
-Brome Grass
-Timothy Grass 
-Cat Dander 
-Human Dander :'( :'(
-Elm Trees

Level 2 Allergies:
-Scale Weeds 
-Maple Trees 
-Sycamore Trees 
-Red Cedar Trees
-Bermuda Grass 
-Mosquitos
-House flies 
-Altermaria mold

Level 1 Allergies:
-Melaleuca trees 
-Oak trees
-Olive trees
-Eucalyptus trees

I'm surprised he tested so high for human dander considering he never had any bumps before we took him outside. 

Because he's allergic to human dander I'm considering doing the immunization therapy aka the serum for his number 3s and some of his number 2s that I know are present in our area because I can only pick 12 antigens for the serum. 

According to the vet the serum is something that he could be on for the rest of his life or it could be something that helps his system build an immunity to the allergens on his own and he wont need the serum anymore. Its a 4 month treatment plan that costs 300 dollars which isn't cheap but it also isn't nearly as expensive as I thought it would be. I'm going to do some more research on this stuff before I make a decision but that's where we are at now.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

I wonder if feeding him a spoonful of a local, raw honey every day would help with some of those plant allergies. If so, it might allow you to choose different antigens for the serum.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Thanks for the update. It helps all of us as a community when we learn from other people's experiences. Sorry you're going through it.

Environmental allergies seem like the likely suspect, but who knew how many there would be?

Hearing how the serum therapy work will be fascinating if you go that way, so I hope you keep reporting back.

As to shedding, My V seems to shed most heavily when there are changes of season. 

Best with everything,

Bill


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

I'm not a vet but I've been told by vets to take these blood allergen tests with a grain of salt due to the fact that they can be affected by what the dog is currently exposed to.

So if your dog is currently around a certain plant, he likely will show positive results to it, but it doesnt necessarily mean he is allergic too.

I would get a second opinion from a holistic vet.


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

organicthoughts said:


> I'm not a vet but I've been told by vets to take these blood allergen tests with a grain of salt due to the fact that they can be affected by what the dog is currently exposed to.
> 
> So if your dog is currently around a certain plant, he likely will show positive results to it, but it doesnt necessarily mean he is allergic too.
> 
> I would get a second opinion from a holistic vet.



^This. +1.

I find it hard to believe Biscuit is really allergic to all that! Allergies often run in lines/families, contact the breeder and see if any other pups from this litter, or either parent suffers from these allergies.

You don't seem to like my idea of eliminating one possible environmental cause at a time, so I'll stop responding. If you want to figure out what the actual culprit is, that's the best..although most time consuming...way of determining this. I would make a list of things/places Whiskey is exposed to and then in a very controlled way, expose him to just that one thing/place and wait 48 hrs. and see if there's a reaction. Before I went with serum treatments, I'd personally wait to see if the reaction recurs. In the absence of any other puppy having similar issues I'd think it was environmental rather than allergic.

If the pathogen was something like Fire Ants or something in the Pacific..taking him back after that has passed would result in the "All clear" you're currently enjoying.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

So, I can't offer you any more dog specific advice, but I'll share my own experience with sublingual immunotherapy. I have an autoimmune disease that is normally triggered by food allergies, but in some people environmental allergies set it off as well. I'm one of the latter. I didn't even know I had allergies of any sort until we moved to Kentucky (bluegrass is one of my major allergens). Shortly after our move, I began sublingual immunotherapy (a liquid serum). It is supposed to work similar to allergy shots but be safer (in my case there was a concern that I would have a dangerous reaction to allergy shots). I also had to pick the top 10 or 12 allergens in the "drops" and leave out the milder ones.

Over the past few years, I noticed my springtime allergies getting better and better. I quit taking the drops over the winter for the first time (they are also pricey) and have been in awful shape this spring. I really believe it's because the drops were helping me so much. Lesson learned the hard way.

I would not for a minute hesitate to recommend sublingual immunotherapy. I would maybe suggest waiting a couple months to see if it's a seasonal thing first though.

Also, blood testing for allergies is supposed to be MUCH more accurate than skin/scratch testing. I believe it is more the scratch testing that is more likely to result in false positives, but I could be wrong about that.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

One of my daughters has been using the drops for about a year, and I can tell a big difference in her allergies.


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## cuddlebuglove (Apr 27, 2014)

I am sorry to provide such a late response to you regarding Biscuit. First, I wish to thank you wholeheartedly for such a detailed response- I can't imagine what you're going through. I am still a novice and certainly think that what has been said is quite useful although in the end, I support any decisions that you make that will help the sweet puppy.

I want you to know that I shared your update with my close friend and that both of us were grateful for the diagnoses as pointing the way to a full recovery or at least excellent main tenance of the illnesses.

We will keep you both in prayer; will this treatment allow Biscuit to play outside or will you have to exercise him in a more controlled environment, say a daycare centers or getting a treadmill for your home?

It would be worth knowing if his parents, littermates or grandparents had this problem and if so, how was it dealt with.

As to UC Davis, there must be a university that they could recommend nearer to you. I know that sometimes it is said that cutting edge treatmentso begin at hospitals attached to universities. Or perhaps with this case which seems out of the norm, Biscuit could be treated by a Vet there and in exchange for allowing graduate students to study the process and examine him under experts, the medicines etc; could be at a reduced cost, if not free.

Of course, who could resist a Vizsla, handsome and sweet natured?

I hope for more news as you have the chance to give to me and the group at large. Again, my sincerest thanks for taking the time to update us.

In prayer,
Cuddlebuglove (and her furry person loving friend, Ann).


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