# Help again - angry V



## Kazi (Jun 8, 2020)

Hi, Apologies for the long post !! I’m turning to the forum again to help me try to understand my V Reggies behaviour. My last post I asked for advice about when he meets his half brother (9 weeks younger) and his initial aggression. We meet up twice weekly and although initially it was just rough play this has now escalated and Reggie really lets his brother who is just the sweetest boy have it ! Advice was to keep Both on lead wait until both dogs are calm and let them off. So we did this both dogs were calm let them off and Reggie went for it, I had to separate them. So both back on leads for another 10 mins and this time when we released they were ok. They love to run at the speed of light, scrapping all the way and have such fun hence the reason I’m persevering. 
But Reggies initial anger this week was the worse episode yet so I’m now slightly on edge which I know Reggie will sense.

My husbands theory is Reggie is asserting his authority over his younger brother and trying to establish a pecking order and because I initially intervened the 1st time I’ve actually inadvertently made the situation worse. Could this be the case ? And if so what are my options now ? I worry incase Reggie hurts his younger sibling so couldn’t possibly stand back. Apart from this behaviour Reggie is great, never shows anger towards any other dogs, goes to doggy day care with lots of other dogs including another V (albeit older) with no issue. I don’t want to stop meeting as it’s so good for them both and they r lovely boys together but wonder if it’s fast becoming my only option. Hope forum can shed some light on issue. Thanks


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Is Reggie still in a excited state of mind, when you released him to play with his half-brother? And was he more calm state, before You released him the second time?

Is he playing with new to him, young puppies at daycare, or are most of the dogs older than him?


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## Kazi (Jun 8, 2020)

texasred said:


> Is Reggie still in a excited state of mind, when you released him to play with his half-brother? And was he more calm state, before You released him the second time?
> 
> Is he playing with new to him, young puppies at daycare, or are most of the dogs older than him?


He seemed calm the 1st time, he was walking nicely, sitting to take a treat. I’m not 100% sure if all the dogs at daycare r older but there is a good chance he’s one of the youngest. I will ask just to check, I know at daycare if dogs ignore him he will ignore them but if they r excited or excited him even more but she did not mention any aggression. We r due to meet again tomorrow, just not sure what else I can do apart from pulling him off. Sound I firmly correct him ? Or would that make it worse ? Ur help is appreciated


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## InTheNet (Jun 1, 2016)

we have a 2 year old and a 16 week old.

When they are playing/fighting you would think they are killing each other. Barking/biting. BUT NO painful squeals!
Is the younger dog squealing in pain? If not I let ours have at it. They seem to know just how hard to bite without causing any injury. Ours "fight" for a while then just stop. A little rest and they are back at it. Our younger one is the instigator half the time.

I watch the tails on our 2 . When they are "fighting" and the tails are wagging everything is good. If the tail is up and not wagging it is a little more serious. If the tail is tucked under it may be close to time to be breaking things up.
Do both participate in the rough housing? If so let them go. One will let you know if they have had enough.


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## Kazi (Jun 8, 2020)

InTheNet said:


> we have a 2 year old and a 16 week old.
> 
> When they are playing/fighting you would think they are killing each other. Barking/biting. BUT NO painful squeals!
> Is the younger dog squealing in pain? If not I let ours have at it. They seem to know just how hard to bite without causing any injury. Ours "fight" for a while then just stop. A little rest and they are back at it. Our younger one is the instigator half the time.
> ...


Sounds like good advice, his sibling did squeal the last time hence the reason I jumped in. I haven’t had the process of thought during the ‘fight’ to check his tail but I don’t think Reggies is wagging as he’s seriously annoyed but I will check this out. Yes they do both go for it in equal measure just the initial meet that causes the problem. I’m a new V owner and I know I’m possibly a tad anxious, unfortunately as Reggie is the crime perpetrator 😂 I feel it’s my duty to make sure I step in. Thanks for advice, I’ll check his tail 👍


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## InTheNet (Jun 1, 2016)

Our first male was kicked out of a dog park!. He was "beating up" a Malinois that was twice his size. The dogs were having a grand time, Running/ chasing/ tumbling/ barking. Both going at it . The owner of the Malinois thought it was to rough. We were asked to leave. 
If the smaller pup is being hurt he will come to the owner for protection. You should be able to tell when one has had enough.

Like with kids, as long as there is no blood it's good.

I am by no means an expert, just passing on my observations with our v"s

We have had a golden retriever and a lab pup in years past and they were NO where near the energy level of the v pups .Not even in the same galaxy.

Nothing wrong with stepping in if needed.


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## Kazi (Jun 8, 2020)

Thanks for advice, younger pup as yet hasn’t ran to his owner so maybe it’s not as bad as I think. Ur right though a V ‘nice play’ is something to behold.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

This may, or may not be part of the problem.
Puppies greet each other differently, than dogs greet each other..
Both dogs are at, or close to being at the teenage stage. What is a acceptable greeting for puppies i.e. running straight up to a dog face, leaping, barking, jumping, licking. 
Its not acceptable behavior as the dog matures, and can cause problems between dogs. Most dogs passed the puppy stage don't tolerate it very well. So if one, or both dogs are doing this during the greeting. It could be a problem. Some dogs also try to one up each other, when they are in wrestling play mode. As he tries to gain the upper hand, one will undoubtably squeal from pain, or possibly growl, or snap. And some dogs the squeal will let the other dogs know they won, and it will stop. But other dogs will escalate it further, if they hear a squeal. 

My dog Shine is horrible when meeting new dogs. She's two and a half years years old, and thinks every dog wants to be her best friend. Flying right up to their face, and wanting to play rough before they get to know each other.
I know this is my fault and I should have put a stop to it sooner. So many people know Shine. They will see her from across a store, when I'm walking her, or when they enter the house. They start doing this louder, happy very excited voice. Oh My Gosh its Shine!!! Oh pretty girl come see me. And like any dog would, see matches their excitement. Howling, leaping, giving kisses, spinning around their legs. So she has learned this is an acceptable greeting. Because it's an acceptable greeting to humans, She carries over that type of greeting to other dogs. 
So sometimes dog work with other dogs, starts with dog work with other people.


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## Kazi (Jun 8, 2020)

texasred said:


> This may, or may not be part of the problem.
> Puppies greet each other differently, than dogs greet each other..
> Both dogs are at, or close to being at the teenage stage. What is a acceptable greeting for puppies i.e. running straight up to a dog face, leaping, barking, jumping, licking.
> Its not acceptable behavior as the dog matures, and can cause problems between dogs. Most dogs passed the puppy stage don't tolerate it very well. So if one, or both dogs are doing this during the greeting. It could be a problem. Some dogs also try to one up each other, when they are in wrestling play mode. As he tries to gain the upper hand, one will undoubtably squeal from pain, or possibly growl, or snap. And some dogs the squeal will let the other dogs know they won, and it will stop. But other dogs will escalate it further, if they hear a squeal.
> ...


Thanks this helps, I am desperate to make our walks work as watching them play is brilliant. From all the advice I think it’s possibly something to monitor and as long as it doesn’t escalate we will keep trying to help both dogs remain calm and see how it goes. Just curious would letting both boys mature settle things down ? Or is that just wishful thinking 🤔


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I should have added
Do the dogs have good recall.
If not it's something both I have a owners need to work on. 
If you see play start to get to ruff, each owner can call their dog to them. Go over a few commands with the dog, then release them with a command.
And are y'all just standing around letting the dogs play, or do you both keep walking while the dogs are loose?
Normally if you keep walking the dogs will run more, and sniff more things. It can cut down on the wrestling matches.


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## Kazi (Jun 8, 2020)

texasred said:


> I should have added
> Do the dogs have good recall.
> If not it's something both I have a owners need to work on.
> If you see play start to get to ruff, each owner can call their dog to them. Go over a few commands with the dog, then release them with a command.
> ...


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## Kazi (Jun 8, 2020)

Hi All, just brief update. 1st outing with Reggies brother that he has not shown any aggression towards him. I tried a combo of all the advice given, waited until about 15 mins into walk and once we felt things were settled we let them off lead. Made sure I recalled him often which worked well when things appeared like they could escalate. It helped that we found a ball on outing as this was an added distraction for both boys 👍🏻 I don’t think I’m out of the woods yet but feel a small step has been taken. Thanks to all who replied, can’t thank the forum enough.


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