# Counter Surfing - any training exercises to help?



## jean (Feb 17, 2015)

We have the typical counter serving issue with our 4.5 month old puppy. He's extremely food motivated, and while he's never gotten anything from the counter, he remains optimistic that someday, he might. This most often happens when he is walking through the kitchen (the door to the backyard is through the kitchen) and he is interested in what might be up there. We have an open floor plan, so the kitchen is always just a few steps away. 

If I can catch his eye flashing up towards the counter and see that he's thinking of jumping, I call him away and ask him to sit. This works - but I'm not good enough to catch him most of the time. :/

I searched through the archives and here's what I found for advice. Just wanted to summarize it and see if anyone has something I missed.

*Reward for "four on the floor"*
We do this. He is _often_ very good at keeping his paws on the floor even while we do stuff on the counter. Especially in the mornings. But at other times (usually when we aren't right next to him), he still jumps up to see what might be up there for him.

*Have a place (mat/bed) for him to sit in during meal prep.*
We have this, and he's pretty good about staying there. He really doesn't jump up during meal prep. He sits very politely if he knows there is a chance of rewards.

*Keep counters clean & make sure that he is never rewarded with a prize*
We do this. He remains extremely hopeful.

*Put on leash and step on the leash when he jumps up.*
Admittedly, we haven't really done this one. Hmmm... We can try, but most often we are not standing right next to him when he does it.

*Deterrents such as spray bottles, "pet corrector" compressed air, shaking a can*
As a puppy, we're sticking with positive-only training. I realize these are minor corrections that are widely used. We may be open to trying them a little later, but want to exhaust other options. In this vein, my husband wants to try a scat mat - has anyone tried something like this?

We do say "NO" when he jumps, then command off. We usually have to physically help him off. My husband does not want to lure with food, because the puppy then just will jump up so he can get a treat for getting lured off. 

*Set the puppy up with a trap of tins/cans filled with noise makers*
This goes with above, but since it doesn't involve us inflicting the correction I'm a little more open to it... is 4.5 months too young to try something like this?

*Be consistent and wait until he grows up a little more.*
Fair enough, but we want to do everything we can right now.

In the meantime, are there any directed training exercises we can do to help mitigate this? Our puppy class trainer suggested setting things on the counter and command "leave it" and reward him for complying.

Similarly, the couch. Right now, we just have it barricaded so he doesn't practice being on the couch. But that also limits our own use of the couch, so it really isn't ideal... especially if we have company! We spend a lot of time on the floor with him. (We may eventually let him on the couch when invited, but I want him to first be trained to not jump on the couches.) He has multiple other soft options to lay on, though it does seem like his couch jumping decreased when we brought back our area rug with a nice cushy rug pad (was removed for puppy proofing).


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## chilithevizsla (Apr 2, 2014)

I'd recommend teaching up and then off simultaneously. Ask the dog to get up, mark and treat and then ask for off and mark and treat when 4 paws are on the floor. When the commands are reliable you can phase out treats slowly. It's really important to only mark and treat when asked for the behavior though, even if he's jumped up and does the off on command he shouldn't be rewarded for practicing the behavior without asking.

If you catch him up in fact I'd actually just wait for him to get down on his own, if he's deciding himself to get off himself then that's really good, it means he's learning there's no reason to be up there. If he's being told off without figuring if there's a reward up there then he's likely to keep checking it out rather than thinking oh there's nothing up here for me.

If you see him about to jump up, interrupt him and give him a JACKPOT! Best results are if you can get in there before they practice the behavior


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

This must be your first V if you're stuck on 'keeping it positive' :

The first thing to do is make sure there are no goodies left inadvertently out there on the counter. If he looks up there wistfully and if he makes the attempt, somewhere along the line he's learned that stuff is left unattended and therefore available. Your bad. Looking is Ok, touching, no.

If he learns that there's nothing up there, he wont be so interested. So, when you're done preparing dinner clear the counter off so even if he cruises he's left unsatisfied. That might be a change in your routine, but that might be required. Dogs react and respond to what we do, and they are incredibly intelligent at quickly learning our patterns, especially with food. I'd bet you clear away after dinner, and as a result, he's learned the goodies are out there unprotected.

Lastly, "Being positive" doesn't mean you never discipline...dogs in the pack will discipline each other, that's not being "negative"..it depends on how and why you do it. Frankly, there are things that require a sharp verbal response to get their attention and for them to learn that they can NEVER do that again....like lunging out the car, etc. You have to decide what that is, but the larger issue is that Vizslak need discipline, and you should get comfortable with that idea, otherwise, you'll likely get an out of control dog.


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## chilithevizsla (Apr 2, 2014)

I didn't say you can't but I do believe shouting no at a dog doing something isn't teaching much, it just shows you're unhappy with an aspect of the dogs behaviour. The dog will learn more from deciding to get down itself or being trained up and off, they do behaviours for a reason and they'll stop them if it isn't achieving anything.

The thing is, if you have a known counter surfer or dog problem in general you should be being extra vigilant and not let the dog practise the behaviour in the first place, if the dog is doing a behaviour you know is wrong and you give it the opputunity to do it then you're at fault, not the dog, they do not do it to purposely be bad. Telling the dog off can force them to practise the behaviour in secret a lot like when telling them off when they toilet inside.


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## jean (Feb 17, 2015)

Yes, it is first V! Positive training as a first method to try to resolve, in particularly in puppyhood, seems like a reasonable place to start. We say "No" as needed, but I agree that it doesn't work well for behaviors that we want him to do whether we are present or not.

We already keep counters clear (as I mentioned in the question). He never gets anything, but he's still hopeful. This isn't an issue during dinner or during dinner prep - it's fairly easy to be diligent during those times.

Instead, when meal time has long passed he'll go see what's going on on the counter. He can't see what, if anything, is on them from the ground (yet). He can see we do stuff on the counters at certain times, and he can smell that it involves food... so the counters are an interesting place to him, even if they haven't provided a reward, even when they are empty.

This is where I'm struggling. If he gets up on the counter and we say nothing and he decides to get down, he has learned nothing is there for him. Yay! But he has not learned that it isn't OK to "just check it out" when he is curious. Teaching up and off together is a good suggestion. My only hesitation is that it tells him that "up" is OK sometimes. (Of course, he already knows how to perform "up" even if he doesn't have a word for it.) Will he understand "by invitation only"? I want him to keep his feet on the floor. We reward that, but he isn't 100% compliant.

Yes, the best solution is prevention of the behavior through catching him before he starts. Perhaps we can go back to having a leash trail him in the house... Blocking off the kitchen during play sessions to make it less accessible would help us to interrupt him before he even makes it near the counter (which then limits the issue to actual dinner prep time or times we have a reason that he is in the kitchen). Right now, the counter and the areas where we hang out are right next to each other, so it is hard to enforce 100% prevention.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

We had the same problem with our weim pup and our house is laid out in much the same way. We tried a lot of the things you mentioned - some worked better than others. Like you, we keep our counters clean. She never got rewarded for surfing, but she was still obsessed with it. She also loves water, so she's always trying to peek in the sink.

I think it's just a matter of being consistent. Every time I caught her on the counter, she got told "off" and had to jump down. If I caught her going for it, she got told to "sit." I also taught her "go sit down" where she sits on the dining room rug while I'm preparing food (which is super helpful as that's when she's most tempted). She kept at the surfing for months, but it lessened each month. Now she's a year old and while she's not perfect, she really doesn't bother with it much anymore. Whatever route you choose, just stick with it and eventually it will pay off.


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

I am not a positive-only dog owner. Positive is preferred, but I don't find that its use is always reasonable. Correction can be appropriate, particularly when trying to extinguish unwanted behavior.

Counter surfing is a good example of where I consider positive training to be unreasonable. Training "up" and "off", but never giving "up" & having the dog infer that "off" is expected is just so round-about. A correction that is unpleasant and is associated with his act is straightforward, fast, and effective. For surfing, I would use an e-collar and nick him when he jumps on the counter. He'll associate it with his being there, not with you (i.e., you're not just teaching him to be afraid of you). It will be unpleasant and may even hurt, depending upon what it takes to correct him. The pain is immediately over and he's learned to stay off. Class over.

Bob


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## Watson (Sep 17, 2012)

4.5 months is still quite young. I would say you're doing everything right, and he will grow out of it. My boy snatched a few things off our counters under my husbands watch (small things like a pulled pork sandwich, slice of pizza etc :), and I still managed to break him of it. We used four on the floor gets a reward. Now at 3, he can be trusted home alone even with the tastiest food left on the counter. I personally wouldn't use an e-collar on a 4.5mo puppy, especially not for something like this. Quick fixes don't usually train a dog - repetition does!


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

Watson said:


> ... We used four on the floor gets a reward. ...


This is the part that I don't get: when do you reward? If he walks in the kitchen & doesn't jump, do you reward? If he continues to stand around, do you reward? How often? If he walks into the kitchen when you're not there, do you go in (if you see him) & reward? Why does he associate the reward with not jumping instead of just being in the kitchen?

Bob


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## Watson (Sep 17, 2012)

Good question. Eventually Watson learned that if I'm in the kitchen, and there's food, if he sits nicely, he may or may not get a treat. When I first taught him, it was often that I treated, now it's hardly ever. He won't even sit there long waiting, and he never just goes in there looking for food. Even if I drop something on the floor by accident, he always waits until I tell him that he can have it. Sometimes he can, sometimes he can't, depending on what it is. I think when you're consistent, they eventually learn the rules, the treats just help teach them what you expect/want from them.


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## chilithevizsla (Apr 2, 2014)

Bob said:


> Watson said:
> 
> 
> > ... We used four on the floor gets a reward. ...
> ...


The whole point of reward based training is to redirect energy or a behaviour into something else so behaviour modification. You need to gradually reduce the amount of times he gets the treat for a disired behaviour instead of focusing on what the dog is doing negatively.
The problem with an e collar is that is done and always will rely on you to be there for correction. If the dog practises it while you're not there and gets no nick and then gets a nick when and are then it'll just learn to not do it while You're there which is unsafe.

Positive training is amazing, I saw a dog taught to drive a car around a Track corner the other day, you cannot teach that with an e collar.

There is a way to make a correction in positive training, a lot of people use the word ooops and do not treat if the dog does something it isn't asked To do and then given another chance To offer a desired behaviour to get the the reward, it will teach a dog a lot more than a simple no or a nick.


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

Bob said:


> Watson said:
> 
> 
> > ... We used four on the floor gets a reward. ...
> ...


I reward..I assume you mean with a treat...when I want to reinforce the learning b/c he's not at 100%. Rewards are best when they're used to strengthen the bond btwn actions and consequences, not as "emotional gratifiers". Otherwise I offer acknowledgement of the act itself. It's a fine line, but if you're constantly "treating", the V learns to do stuff b/c he wants the treat rather than to please you or simply b/c he has to. 

I'm one of those that is against e collars and clickers and the like b/c they're just unnatural, you're inserting things there that would never occur 'In real life' if they were part of a canine pack. I get the most from my V's when I think like they do...there's a super excellent book on natural dog training their way "Mother knows best" by Carol Benjamin, it's also very well written and a delightful read.

Also, your baby has learned there's vittles up there somehow, and once they get something in their mind, it's very hard for them to just dismiss it...have you tried lifting him up and letting him see and sniff that there's nothing there?


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## chilithevizsla (Apr 2, 2014)

Gingerling said:


> I'm one of those that is against e collars and clickers and the like b/c they're just unnatural, you're inserting things there that would never occur 'In real life' if they were part of a canine pack. I get the most from my V's when I think like they do...there's a super excellent book on natural dog training their way "Mother knows best" by Carol Benjamin, it's also very well written and a delightful read.


Can you explain why you think "un-natural" inherently means bad or not worth using?
Everything about dog's lives are un-natural, even the dogs themselves.
Being un-natural can sometimes be bad like having dogs on a vegan diet but using a clear and precise noise to train a dog isn't a bad thing?


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## jean (Feb 17, 2015)

This is my very old thread, and I wanted to follow up with what ended up working for us in case anyone searches in the future.

For our dog, the answer was time outs. Whenever he jumped on the counter, we put him in the crate, which we kept right near the kitchen for this purpose. We did it in a somewhat cheerful manner, as though jumping on the counter was equivalent to asking to be crated, "oh, you want to go to your kennel?? Ok, kennel!" We'd leave him in there only for a minute or two. I may have read that technique here, i certainly did not invent it myself. We were very consistent for weeks, and one day he matured enough and just stopped jumping up. It may also help that he got tall enough to see what is going on up there. He still never steals any goodies from the counters, even when he can see them. He is not left unsupervised with goodies on counters, but I honestly think he'd be OK.

Before he was trained, one time he did jump up and get a whole days ration of kibble from the counter. We still were able to train him out of counter surfing. Just wanted to note to anyone who slipped up that it is still possible to break this!


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