# 11 Weeks Old, Biting/Agression Problem



## crwobrien (May 25, 2016)

Hi, Vizsla owners!

This will be the first post from me as a recent, new Vizsla pup owner. Apologies if this post is not accurately categorised according to threads.

Joanna, my girlfriend, and I have had our stunning boy Laszlo for a few weeks now, he is currently just over 11 weeks old.

Today was his third venture outside, towards the park and taking his first steps to socialising with other dogs and other people, kids included. He was amazingly receptive and well behaved to these new encounters.

However, as we are still in the midst of housetraining him in all aspects, which is proving both successful and problematic simultaneously, the biggest and most worrying issue is his behaviour towards Joanna. 

I've had a few phone calls from her, in the past two weeks while I am at work, with her in tears as Laszlo has been biting/chewing her and drawing blood and leaving bruises, also chewing and aggressively thrusting towards any clothes she is wearing whilst snarling and grunting! He does get like this from time to time with me too but never to the extent that Joanna experiences with him. 

This behaviour tends to be more erratic after feeding or later on in the night. We both understand that this can be normal for young Vizslas, but it has got to the point where she is so upset that she believes we are going wrong in the training somewhere. Bizarrely, he dotes on her. The second she leaves any room he chases straight after her. The minute she leaves the door for work he cries for a while. Yet, he tends to view her as a human chew toy at prolonged periods to the point where she fears him as her "no" commands only aggravate him more.

I have also read that this kind of behaviour is directed more towards female owners than their male counterparts... has anyone else experienced this?

There has been times when he has been with only me and he displays this behaviour, but with me I seem to be more stern with him verbally. 

Any help/advice/opinions would be greatly appreciated!

Best,

Craig


----------



## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

Everything is fine... This is completely normal behaviour for a young vizsla. Expect it to continue until he loses his baby teeth. Redirect to a toy or chew when you can but be assured it is a phase.

Let him drag a leash in the house if it gives her more control or she can wear gloves so she doesn't fear having to handle him when he misbehaves.


----------



## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Yes, Laszlo is acting like a normal puppy! Believe it or not, he will eventually behave like a normal, adult dog all on his own, without any "training" from you. He is just being a pup. Try not to be alarmed by it.


----------



## Canadian Expy (Feb 27, 2013)

crwobrien said:


> I have also read that this kind of behaviour is directed more towards female owners than their male counterparts... has anyone else experienced this?
> 
> There has been times when he has been with only me and he displays this behaviour, but with me I seem to be more stern with him verbally.


As others have said, this is a normal puppy stage. You are correct in that pups often direct this behavior towards females in the home. Females generally respond to such unpleasant puppy behavior very differently from a male - high pitched cry, quick retrieval of the item being mouthed (hands, legs, scarf, sweater sleeve, etc) which further excites/charges the pup, etc. Females generally use softer toned commands compared to a man's gruffer/deeper tones, and *can* be softer on the puppy vs. consistent (note the repeated use of "generally", as this does not apply to ALL females and I do not wish to offend). 

Yes, this puppy stage does pass, but there are some things that can help your girlfriend get through it. 

First, keep calm so that you don't feed into the excitement of the puppy. This can be hard, but the more she reacts, the more the crazed the pup will get. The reactivity level of dogs greatly varies based on the temperament of that pup. My dog needs plenty of excitable praise to motivate him. I've had other dogs who would be bouncing 6 ft off the ground if I gave them the same type of praise. Keep calm, and it will help your pup get into a calmer state of mind. 

For the next little while I would avoid dangly clothing/sweaters that can entice the pup to jump and bite at them. Otherwise, she will surely lose a few items of clothing. 

If the pup is picking on her, she can get up and walk away into another room and close the door. Give the pup a minute or two to settle down, and then return completely ignoring the pup (no eye contact, voice acknowledgement). Repeat as often as necessary, but the pup will learn that poor behavior results in your girlfriend leaving, rather than engaging with him. Once he has settled she can then interact with him and praise him. 

The other thing I would do, is before those trigger times you mentioned after feeding or later at night, put a light leash on your pup (*you must be supervising at all times*) and if the pup goes after your girlfriend you can give the dog a gentle "pop" with the lead and tell him "off" or "leave it". This keeps your hands out of it and allows you to make corrections with the leash. 

These are a few of the things that worked for me. I would also suggest that your girlfriend get very involved in the training of the pup so that he learns to respect her vs. treat her as a play toy. He is only 11 weeks old, and very much a baby. Pups do learn who they need to respect and who they can get away with things with. 

As you have likely seen on the forum there are MANY ways to train a dog, and each method is not suitable/successful for all dogs. I'm sure you will get plenty of advise, so take from it what you will. Congratulations on your new addition, and welcome to the forum


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Train for bite inhibition. It is not something that happens miraculously or without conscious effort.

It is the single most important part of a puppy's education .

Bill


----------



## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

And tell Joanna that her reaction is normal, too. There's lots of good puppy training advice on the forum, but some human advice can also work wonders until the puppy grows a bit.

Since she is Laszlo's focus, she needs to know that she will lose some items of clothing no matter how careful she is. If possible, either change into old clothes around the puppy, or put an old shirt on over her clothing when Laszlo is around. I recommend that she stops wearing jewelry until this phase passes. If she wears a watch, she should make sure it is snug against her wrist and clasps securely. She also needs to learn how to CALMLY put Laszlo into his crate while he's being a demon [NOT AS PUNISHMENT] so SHE can have a time out. Lastly, have her track where Laszlo seems to concentrate his attacks. If it's her hands, put leather gloves in strategic places around the house. If it's her legs, then even though it's summer, she should really think about wearing jeans for the next several weeks.

Good luck!


----------



## crwobrien (May 25, 2016)

Gratitude for the response and tips.

Some of the advice mentioned is already in place. In terms of clothing we wear around him, it's always tatty jumpers and jeans. However, ruining our clothes is completely at the back of our minds, if there at all. 

It was more the psychological effects his behaviour is having on us as new dog owners, and us questioning our methods in raising and training him.

I'm confident we will come to realise that our methods are in good check. I guess we just want to ensure that he is being given the best start in life and for it to continue and for him to be part of the pack!


----------



## Susanaskye (Aug 16, 2016)

Read Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, Sophia yin.... We have a 5 year old Aussie and taught her amazing bite inhibition and control using gentle principles like "ouch", uh uh, and then replacement with proper choices. We have an 11 week old Vizsla who has exhibited the same behaviors as you describe... In the week we have had him he has improved already. Read a lot... Teach him how not to bite hard... That is using ouch... Then reward him for getting it right. Copper gets over stimulated and needs time outs and hunger seems to exacerbate it. We were worried at first but the improvement has demonstrated that he will be fine. This training has created a remarkably calm Aussie and I believe it will do the same for our already sweet boy. Calm and firm humans create amazing doggie friends. If you need help... Find a great behaviorist in your area to help. The investment will pay off in years of happiness with a breed that should bring joy and challenges. You did the best first step in asking for direction. Congratulations on your family addition.


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

I would argue for a different bite inhibition method than that advocated for my Ian Dumbar (with his relying on things like saying "ouch!", denying attention to the pup, and/or trading hands for chew toys).

Instead, I think it is better not to remove one's hand when a puppy starts biting and to instead (very gently) insert one's hand into the pup's mouth. Just to the point where the pressure of ones's hand is slightly uncomfortable for the pup. Their response will be to relax their hold, and which time one's hand should be slightly withdraw (just enough to relieve any pressure) but remain inside the pup's mouth (with them not chewing or biting).

With a very aggressive biter, the pup's lip flaps can be folded gently over their teeth (with zero pressure) with one's hand inside the pup's mouth. If the pup bites down their teeth will come down on the interior of their lips, and they will get a natural feedback that they control. The owner should remain totally calm and apply zero pressure.

Over time (and it should be a process) an owner will be able to put his or her hand inside a dog's mouth at any time with the dog having a completely soft mouth. This is "active bite inhibition" and it is a superior method of bite-proofing a dog.

Dunbar's method, while better than nothing, rewards the dog with negative attention by yelling "ouch" (when creating drama is the last thing a trainer should do, and trading doesn't actively teach a soft mouth.

Threads on this topic have gone very badly in the past, but searching for bite inhibition and my user name will bring up more information. I learned this technique when I was a first-time gundog owner back in 1970, before "bite inhibition training" had a name, and it is the single most important piece of wisdom I could hope to pass on. 

This method works. It is not an instant fix, nor is it designed to be an instant fix. But it is the most effective way to bite-proof a dog.

Bill


----------



## Susanaskye (Aug 16, 2016)

I disagree (respectfully) with Bill. I have used the Dunbar method very successfully with our dog. The purpose of this method is not to stop biting, but to teach how hard to bite. This is very important because it can be the difference between a damaging mouth or one that is controlled. All dogs have the potential to use their mouths to correct... Might be a puppy correction or a kid correction, but the strength of that correction will be determined by how that puppy has learned to control its mouth now... 
Once a relationship and some structure is established I have found it works very very well. It is not used indefinitely, as the puppy learns pretty quickly what hurts and will stop. If the puppy does not stop, then a time-out and removing the puppy from the fun is important. It takes some thought and practice, but can be very effective. If the puppy is not responsive and gets more excited by the protests, you have to stop the biting... I am not suggesting you would let it continue if the puppy seems not to notice your response. It also does not work if you are standing and the puppy is biting your clothes. That is a flat out NO... I am very grateful that I did the learning and the reading as we trained her. Now I am refreshing myself with our new guy and finding it works just as well. Anyhow, I think if you study the various methods, you will find the right fit for your situation. Finding a very experienced, positive trainer also helps. Good luck and I hope you can get help from everybodies suggestions and make them work for you.


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Susanaskye said:


> I disagree (respectfully) with Bill. I have used the Dunbar method very successfully with our dog. The purpose of this method is not to stop biting, but to teach how hard to bite. This is very important because it can be the difference between a damaging mouth or one that is controlled. All dogs have the potential to use their mouths to correct... Might be a puppy correction or a kid correction, but the strength of that correction will be determined by how that puppy has learned to control its mouth now...
> Once a relationship and some structure is established I have found it works very very well. It is not used indefinitely, as the puppy learns pretty quickly what hurts and will stop. If the puppy does not stop, then a time-out and removing the puppy from the fun is important. It takes some thought and practice, but can be very effective. If the puppy is not responsive and gets more excited by the protests, you have to stop the biting... I am not suggesting you would let it continue if the puppy seems not to notice your response. It also does not work if you are standing and the puppy is biting your clothes. That is a flat out NO... I am very grateful that I did the learning and the reading as we trained her. Now I am refreshing myself with our new guy and finding it works just as well. Anyhow, I think if you study the various methods, you will find the right fit for your situation. Finding a very experienced, positive trainer also helps. Good luck and I hope you can get help from everybodies suggestions and make them work for you.


Dunbar's method, as you suggest, is designed not to immediately "stop" biting behaviors, but to teach a pup to inhibit the bite, or in other words to have a soft mouth. This approach IMO is spot-on. Biting behaviors can be "stopped" with punitive means, but this removes the active bite inhibition training from the critical developmental phase puppies go through where mouthing other pups and humans is a natural form of interaction.

While in 100% agreement with Dunbar's logic in the big-picture, I think the "ouch!," ignore, and trade responses are less optimal that keeping one's hand in the pup's mouth and gently going deeper (rather than withdrawing) in response to sharp biting. I feel this gives better and more direct feedback to the pup that cues them when they should inhibit the bite. It takes only the subtlest of moves with a hand going deeper for a pup to relax its bite.

Dunbar, the late Sophia Yin, and Patricia McConnell have done immeasurable good in the world of dog training by advancing positive methods. I'm grateful to them. However, there are times when I feel PR-only reaches a point where it can be counterproductive in eliminating gentle means that offer up any sort of negative feedback. One of these is the slight pressure a pup feels when a hand goes slightly deeper in its mouth when it bites. I feel removing gentle means because they are not strickly "PR" takes away one of the most valuable training techniques we have when training for bite inhibition.

And Dunbar himself, in the widely available essay for his method, says biting should never be rewarded with "drama." As negative attention is a reward. Yet, he advocates loudly saying "Ouch!" in response to a bite, which strike me as exactly the sort of drama Dunbar himself says is to be avoided.

I know that with every new pup I've ever had I've spent a lot of time with my hand loosely in the puppy's mouth. Often and many times daily in the early weeks and it is a habit I keep up with diminishing frequency as the pup matures. All my dogs have had extremely soft mouths. None has ever snarled at, snapped at, or bitten anyone. My 2.5 year old Vizsla is entirely compliant when I want to get into his mouth to scale any tartar build up he might accrue with a dental pick. 

While I have full respect for Ian Dunbar (and agree on the big picture) I don't think he has the optimal method because he's taken a generally good idea (positive reinforcement) so far that he disallows even the gentlest of pressure. And as a result, ideological purity (for lack of a better term) drives out the most effacatious method.

Bill


----------

