# Breeder Won't Let Us Neuter



## Kimm992

Hey guys,

Just had a question for you all.

Part of the contract with our breeder is that we're not allowed to neuter. The dog comes from a long line of winning show dogs, etc, etc. and the breeder may want to use our little guy as a stud dog at some point.

My husband thinks this is totally fine.

I am a little concerned with regard to aggression, marking, etc.

Does anyone have any advice or experience with this?


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## Pineapple Princess

I have a female and therefore can't speak to male marking or aggression, however I will tell you that after 6 months of age, Hobie wasn't permitted to go back to Doggie Day Camp (which she LOVES and has been vital to her socialization, exercise, and behavior) until she was spayed. I would assume this is standard for other facilities of that type.

May sound silly, but Doggy Day Camp has been a life saver for us and Hobie.


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## gunnr

Kimm992

My first Vizsla was out of a Dual Champion Sire and a Champion female. He was only one of two males from that litter, and the breeder made such a stipulation for his purchase. So it's not unheard of, but it must be an important dog to have such a stipulation. 
I personally didn't have a problem with it, and the little guy almost got lucky once, but his brother arrived at Logan Airport in time, so he missed his big chance, so to speak.

I've had three males through the years, and all of them were kept intact for their entire lives. They'll lift their legs and poop to mark but they can be conditioned not to do it in the yard with the use of a shock collar. I never saw anything that I attributed to increased aggression simply due to being left intact. During the years of hunting them, they met many dogs in the woods and I never had a dog fight.

I would personally want to know the extent of control that the breeder wishes to exercise. With my first one we had very concrete boundries established. Specifically my dog would never be shipped for a breeding. I would drive him back to her and no where else, and she would be responsible for any injuries or vet bills while she had possesion. He could only be bred to her line and not used as a standing stud. I never asked for payment but had I trialed him and put forth the expense to achieve titles. I would have expected some form of compensation.


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## Mercutio

I have never lived with an entire male dog so I can't comment on the differences in behaviour. 

I would agree with Gunnr and just be very clear with the breeder on what they expect from you and probably even get it in writing. I mean, you are paying them for the privilege of owning the lad, you're not just borrowing him for the weekend.

I do find this topic ironic given that we had to sign a contract with the cat breeder that we would have her spayed within 6 months or would be up for the "show cat" price as opposed to the "pet cat" price. I'd like to think it was a policy to encourage responsible cat ownership....


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## Kimm992

Thanks for the replies!

I spoke to the breeder again last night for further clarification.

He said that one of his concerns is neutering too early. He feels that by neutering a V too early it doesn't allow for proper growth of muscles, etc. and that many dogs end up not looking the way they were supposed to.

He said that if we experience any behavioral issues, health issues, etc. that are associated with him being left intact that we could discuss the possibility of neutering at that time.

He is the last male of his bloodline - which is a long line of successful hunters and show dogs. The breeder says he would like to breed him a couple of times if possible.

I appreciate all the responses!


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## Big Rick

I would never buy a dog with a non-neuter clause. If he's the last male in a line of champions, etc. then I would think the breeder would want to keep him for breed stock. I wouldn't want to feed and care for his breed stock. But that's just the way I roll.


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## gunnr

Rick

It's not a bad thing to have a no neuter/ breeding clause, but as I said both sides have to fully understand the agreement. The potential of the dog would also have to be very special, and the sire/dam would have to be established important dogs to the breed to make it worthwhile. True championship lines need to be maintained for the betterment(sp.) of the breed. 
I personally didn't have an issue as it allowed me to own an amazing dog out of, at the time, the virtual whos who of Vizsla's. He was an unbelievable dog, and is still today the "standard" in my mind for what a Vizsla really is and should be. he was that once in a lifetime dog for me.
Still though, I understand that it's not a situation everyone would comfortable with.


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## DixiesMom

I would like to comment on this from another standpoint. 

Like Big Rick, when I first was looking at a purebred dog I had the same reservations about breeder clauses, I felt that if I am purchasing this animal from you that means that it belongs to me and I can do what I see fit with it. However, after really getting to know some really good breeders, I can understand why they have such clauses and will actually welcome them with my next puppy purchase. 

A good breeder has invested so much time, sweat, work and money into the breed, they truly have a vested interest in the puppy that you purchase. If you have been fortunate enough to purchase a "high quality" pup, kuddos to you. I hope to be so lucky within the next year.

You have a very different dilema than someone who has purchased from a breeder who gives full registration to all of their puppies and does not care if the new owners breed the dogs to subpar specimens of the breed. The more I work with V rescue the more bad examples of the breed that I see being used as breeding stock. 

I now look at breeder clauses as a way to preserve the best part of the breed, sometimes that is by specifying that the "pet" must be spayed/neutered or requiring a co-ownership of the dog so that any litters must be signed off on by all owners before any registration papers are issued. In your case, what a great compliment to your pup that he may be considered worthy of bettering the breed.


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## Reggie21

I also have a question about the ideal age to neuter. My boy is almost 8 months old now and still intact. My vet recommended he get neutered at 6 months but I've heard many Vizsla breeders do not recommend neutering before the dog is fully developed, so not for at least a year, lots of them even say 18 months. I also don't want him to develop bad habits. I love his personality right now he isn't aggressive at all and I hope that doesn't change if I wait to get him neutered until he is over a year old. I've never had a male dog before so I'm not sure what to do. Any insight from people that have had experience one way or the other would be helpful. Here is an article I was given from someone at the Vizsla Club of America that states a case AGAINST neutering at a young age.

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html


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## Mercutio

I hadn't considered that point of view - thanks Dixiesmom! It makes a bit more sense to me now why some breeders would want these kind of clauses.

I guess it depends what you want - I just wanted a good companion dog and would not want the responsibility of looking after or showing a potential stud dog for a breeder or the extra responsibility of looking after an entire male (I don't know how much Merc would respect our small fence when the bitch next door comes into season if he were entire). So I would have waited till a good dog but one not of special interest to the breeder came along. 

Reggie, I can't give you any advice but I have noticed that our breeder and our vet have different opinions on a lot of things....


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## Kailua

When I bought Snickers I was held to a contract that was tied to:
-co-ownership with the breeder
-dog shows for 18 months from the first show 
-no moving out of state without permission
-no breeding w/o permission
and the list went on...
As I got to know the breeder and her values, I now can understand her point of view. Snickers bloodline is strong and healthy. He and his siblings are all good quality and have no problems with behavior. He'll be two this month and is still intact, but will be neutering him as soon as his showing contract is completed. People are very surprised to see how friendly he is for not being neutered.
Yes, I do agree with DixiesMom that you should be proud that the breeder is considering your dog as a stud.


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## Roslind

I am a new vizsla owner, so I can't comment specifically about Vizsla aggressiveness, but as far as my research can tell, they aren't an aggressive breed. My family has had several intact males, and the only one we had aggressiveness problems with was a Doberman. My parents has two neutered males (GSP and a mutt that looks like a vizsla/pit cross) right now, and frankly the behavior of these dogs vs previously intact dogs is not very noticeable. For an aggressive breed, I can see the benefit of neutering, but for a non-aggressive breed, I think it is debatable.

Intact or not, proper training should minimize most problems. Good luck with your new dog.


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## Drago

Why would you neuter dog? I would only let him neutered if there were medical issues. Our breeder told me there has been an investigation by the American Vizsla Club (VCA) looking for a relation between neutered dogs and cancers. 
They used a 2504 Vizsla, with a pedigree, born between 1992 and 2008. 
1360 female and 1144 male Vizslas

What they found was:
From 2504 Vizsla, 1074 were NOT neutered. 99 had suffered from cancer (9,2%) No difference between male and female.

1430 were neutered, 469 had cancer (32,7%). There was no significant difference between male and female vizsla's. 

These results show that neutering your dogs gives him/her a three-time bigger chance to get cancer.

To be honest.. I wasn't thinking about neutering my dog, as I think you should let him being complete. But these results confirmed my idea!! I might be usefull if you're considering to neuter your dog.


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## gunnr

Drago
In the US we have a real problem with over population of dogs and cats, which results in them having to be destroyed by placing them in a large vacuum chamber. Ergo, we tend to neuter/spay as a responsible owners to preclude indiscriminate and undesired breedings, resulting in puppies that will need to be destroyed. It's sad


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## Drago

Destroying puppy is .......unbelievable...!!! I can't imagine people doing such things to little puppy's. 
We have problem with over population as well with cats. That's why I neutered my cats. I can't control them when they are outside 'meeting' other cats. 

Incase of dogs.. I think it is different. I think I can controle my dogs behaviour. 
The gundog school were we are going has only one neutered female Vizsla. The others are still in tact.

Anyway I agree that we have to avoid unlimited puppy population. Spraying is better then destroying puppy's. If you are (no matter why) not able to control your dogs behaviour... neutering is definatly the way the go!


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## gunnr

Drago
I've had 3 male Vizslas and all of them were left intact. I never had any problems with them roaming. 
I have a good fence system.


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## Vincent

Vinnie has just turned 1 and is still intact. Most days that we go out a dog will growl/chase or go for him. he has retaliated about 5 times now and the other dogs have run away. my concerns are if they don't run off will there be a fight and are they only doing this because he is intact? I feel sorry for him when he trots up to say hello!! a few people have said "sorry but he has got his balls". 

He also has a green discharge from his penis that is starting to annoy the wife as it goes on the floor, i have been told if he is done this will stop?

Was thinking of getting him done to prevent these issues, has anyone got any views?


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## BamBam

I personally think unless you are going to show your dog you should nearly always get it neutered. The are many health reasons backing up why you should neuter dogs. Also I think it can bring up behaviour issues too. Male dogs left intact are more dominant due to the testosterone, and even though Vizsla's are not aggressive dogs at all, if an intact dogs approachs them and starts a fight they may not back down. 
I got Wiley neutered at 6months and I just think personally I would rather not have to deal with those issues, and the worry. If you are really experienced with dogs, and good at training at suppose it's a different matter as you can probably achieve great control over your dog, but I think Vizslas are alot of work anyway- so I dont want to make extra work for myself by training a more dominant dog. 
Also Wiley made alot of friends when young who were around the same ages, and now they are all growing up we want them all to still get along and be able to play nicely, not reach puberty and be having macho contests with eachother. Just before wiley was done he was starting to get abit humpy as soon as he met dogs over the park, and I was having to walk over and pull him off their backs- this also stopped as soon as he was done. I know humping is sometimes due to dominance rather than actually humping- but I think neutering helps with this either way too. 
When I went to a Viz whizz earlier this year there were alot of dogs there left intact and they were playing so much rougher than the ones that werent, and were alot more growly- not agressive just really rough and I am quite a small personal and dont think I could deal with wiley if he was like that.


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## Crazy Kian

When we bought Kian we had to sign a no breed contract with the breeder.
It stated that Kian had to be neutered by the time he was 12 months old.
We did so at the age of 10 months because he started to hump. It got out of control and once he tried to hump my girlfriend's arm she had me call the vet and make the appointment.
The humping stopped immediately and he seems to be happier than ever. Not a dominant dog, unless he has to be.

A friend of mine has a 2.5 yr old male V who is intact and he is the biggest pup in the world. He will try and hump Kian the odd time, but Kian will just turn around and set him straight. Either that or he gets an e-collar correction from his owner. 
Recently this same dog was attacked while on leash and walking with his owner. My buddy told me that a pit-mix came out of nowhere and attacked Baron. Luckily there was no real damage, just a few bruises and some stitches.

The only thing I wish we did different with Kian in this respect is if we had waited a full year before he was neutered.


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## barrel browner

Crazy Kian
May I ask that if you sign a contract to neuter your dog do thay charge a cheaper fee for the dog?? I have never heard of it here in the UK..(that doesn't mean it doesn't happen)
V's here in the uk are about £850 so I am wondering if you can't breed from them maybe they would be cheaper???
Don't get me wrong I do not wish to breed from Purdey but some people do to re-coupe the cost. 
just being nosey -hope you don't mind me asking?
BB


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## Crazy Kian

To be honest I am not sure.
He was expensive though.... and keeps getting moreexpensive


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## gunnr

BB

I can't answer for Kian, but in my experience it is no cheaper to purchase a dog with a neuter contract. If a breeder has non conforming puppies they may let them go at a cheaper price, but with no papers. I had a no neuter agreement with my first Vizsla
Most ethical breeders have worked very hard to establish their kennel name and line, and would be very upset if you bred one of their dogs, with their kennel name, without first contacting them. It would probably preclude a person from being able to obtain a puppy in the future from an established line. The top breeders are a pretty close knit group, and know, compete, and cross out their dogs amongst each other.

Vizsla puppies from established hunting/trialing lines here will run US $1200.00+ depending on the breed line, sire and dam.


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## barrel browner

Crazy said:


> To be honest I am not sure.
> He was expensive though.... and keeps getting moreexpensive


I can only agree with you .....Hubby keeps saying that Purdey eats better than him!!!! ;D


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## barrel browner

Many thanks Gunnr ,
I thought Purdey was expensive enough but you guys state side seem to have the more expensive V's!! 

BB

(p.s Purdey did come with a 5 generation pedigree certificate with the kennel club)


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## Mercutio

Don’t know about dogs in the UK but our Burmese cat came with a “pet contract” which said she wouldn’t be bred from and would be neutered at 6 months. She was also a lot less expensive because she was a pet and not for breeding. We didn’t get her papers until we sent a copy of the vet certificate.

Since we’re on the neutering topic, I have a question I’ve been a bit afraid to ask because I don’t want to offend anyone. My thoughts are pretty much with BamBam, but also I’ve always thought that if you weren’t using a male dog for breeding it was a bit mean to keep them entire as you are effectively asking them to be celibate and to behave nicely around the girls at the same time. Does anyone else have any thoughts? Am I just (what that word for putting human behaviours and emotions onto animals) anthromorphis-ing?


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## gunnr

barrel said:


> Many thanks Gunnr ,
> I thought Purdey was expensive enough but you guys state side seem to have the more expensive V's!!
> 
> BB
> 
> (p.s Purdey did come with a 5 generation pedigree certificate with the kennel club)


My first Vizsla, in 1987, cost me US $600.00. 2 years later I was offered US $3500.00 for him in the parking lot at hunt. I politely declined. That guy really wanted Boone, which had me worried enough that I didn't hunt that area for the rest of that season.
A finished Gun Dog now would probably cost more than $3500.00.


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