# Yet more crate training discussion



## MaxB (Mar 11, 2019)

Hello all, 

I've been reading the various crate training threads on the forum.....all of which are very helpful, but none of which seem to help my own situation. 
Maggie is doing really well. Putting on about 1 -2 kgs per week, no more signs of a sinus infection, doing really well at training, and giving us much fun and laughter. 
She has sit, wait, leave it, come, down, bed, bring it, fetch, close (heel), and off leash training all down, pretty much pat. We're working on place and paw now. 

She goes to bed easily at night, in her crate, in our room. She happily hops in, snuggles down, and is asleep before I close the door. We go to bed anytime between 10.45 and 11.30, if we've had a particularly busy day, she asks to go a little earlier. Last night she asked to go earlier as we had my sister in law and her husband over for dinner, I don't think she liked the husband.....mind you, neither do we really! 😂

Back to Maggie. She sleeps right through until 7/7.30. most mornings, I have to wake her at 7.30 to get her up and out to the garden for toilet. She also likes me to carry her down to the garden, but that's a whole other issue....right now, I can still manage it, but she's getting heavy! She voluntarily enters the crate after the morning toilet and goes back for a nap until 8.30 or so, or until hubby gets up and creates a cuddle area on the bedroom floor where she will sleep happily until we have to leave the room. 

She will sleep/nap happily in the crate during the day when I sit in the same room. (We move the crate to a warm study downstairs during the day. ) She will not stay in the crate alone with the door closed. She will stay in it alone, door open, with a stuffed kong until she needs me to loosen up the contents or about 20 minutes. I need her to stay in the crate at times so we can have some sort of a life. Here is what we have been doing. 

Stuffed kong only ever in the crate. if she takes the kong out of the crate, I put it back in again. 
Tried short periods and increased them. I've managed about 3 minutes before the screaming starts.
put on puppy calming music
sat in the room with my coat on and the music on
picked up my keys brought them into the study, left them there, picked them up, gone to the door, opened and closed it, returning in between. 
crated her while I potter about the house, walking past irregularly so she can see and hear me, with Kong and chew toy. 
toys that she is only allowed to use in the crate. 
Adaptil spray and collar.
only allowing naps in the crate for now. 

if she can see me, she whines, barks, eats the wire door. sometimes even the stuffed kong isn't enough to distract her. 
if she can't see me, she starts to get really distressed. She has hurt herself previously on the crate when left alone. So we haven't left her alone in the house since then.... 2 major episodes that required a vet visit. 
She will very happily run around the garden, playing with her ball by herself for up to an hour. She doesn't even come in to check if we're still here. But this is only on days where it is sunny.....if it's raining.....she doesn't even like to go out to toilet. 

She will happily lie in her 'free' bed, not the crate, or on a sofa in the sunshine, whether we are in the room or not. 

We can't leave her unsupervised yet, she is still only just 18 weeks old, and will eat either a plant, curtain, cushion, or do a Houdini puppy protest toilet somewhere. 

I work full-time. Husband semi retired. He does not tolerate the stress of the crate training well, so it is down to me. 

we use doggy day care 3 days a week, and if we have to go to an event that she can't come to, we hire a sitter. We horse ride on Saturdays, and hire a sitter for that too. All of which is fine, but it's expensive. and I'd like to be able to go to dinner once in a while for an hour or two without having to plan it 3 days in advance and it costing sitter money. We have no kids at home, our kids are grown up and gone. 

With the Saturday sitter, she seems to be fine with the crate and being perceived alone. No whining if the sitter leaves the room and she's crated for a nap. Doggy Day Care is also a positive dog training facility and they too have been working with her. 
I think she is perfectly capable of being alone as she is happy to be in the garden. 

I bring her to new places at least three times a week. Today, I took the whole day off and we went to a new pet store, and used escalators, successful!. She goes to dog parks, puppy hour weekly, the park beside our home, she is well socialised and has a group of neighbourhood dogs that she plays with in our local park. She is a confident happy dog that the puppy trainer is now using to help puppies that are less social and more anxious. 

our last dog was not so well socialised, and we were terrible at the training, but we were able to leave her in the crate from day 1, and never really had to worry about leaving her if we wanted to go for dinner, (Dalmation). 

The stress it's putting on our relationship is pretty bad right now. Husband is not coping well with semi retirement, and he feels that I am not pulling my weight with the dog care. (He is pretty unsociable, so part of the reason we got Maggie after 5 years of talking about it, was to get him out and about more. ). I run my own business....a lot of the time it is front facing clients, so I need to be able to go to work. I do take Maggie with me when appropriate, the guys in the office love having her in there, but it is unsustainable to be unable to leave her alone here and there for short periods. 

I"m sorry for the long essay....I've talked with several trainers and behaviourists...no-one has an answer that seems to work. the previous threads I have read the majority of, but it's difficult to pull out the information that may help me break the habit that she just doesn't want to be alone during 'social' hours. She's pretty good at settling herself down, and I'm pretty good at sorting her when she has the zoomies so that she is calm again. She and I have a particularly strong bond, her bond with my husband is different, more for play and fun....I'm the 'boss'. (Though I also have fun with her.) 

I just don't know what to do....we've tried all the tips, and have been for weeks now. None of it seems to be working. I have four days off at the end of this week for Easter....Friday - Tuesday. I would love to be able to get this down before returning to work next week. I will have to make a sales trip to LA soon, I won't be able to go if husband considers himself house bound while I'm away, and I need to go to get the work to pay for Maggie the Magyar's lifestyle. 

thanks for patience reading and in advance. M


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

With her hurting herself if left in the crate, I would recommend a behaviorist. She may just have you trained, but you don't want this to become a way of life. 
I fostered, then adopted a dog with separation anxiety, and containment phobia. They are very time consuming, and you have to plan your whole life around them. Its not something that most people can do. I'm retired, and was able to do it for him. But I will never say it was easy.


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## Gabica (Jan 20, 2018)

Maybe it is just me, i was trying to understand the full picture but do not fully follow it, so just some questions, if i may. 
I understand that there are 3 days of the week when she goes to daycare and there she is fine, do they do crating there for day time nap too? For those days when she does not go to daycare what is the structure of the day? Dogs need structure and puppies even more so, hence i am asking. I have not seen which part of the day she gets any exercise in. It would hopefully help to give you some more advices to understand more details. Puppies can be sometimes a lot of work, but they usually come in, sometimes we just have a blind spot which needs some light

We have one which needs an exercise first thing in the morning and would not eat until that is taking care of, and another one which cuddles a bit in the morning, then eats, goes back tor sleep and gets exercise 1.5 hours later. So they have somewhat different day structures, but they both have one.


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## MaxB (Mar 11, 2019)

hi Gabica, thanks for the reply...here is the routine. 

Home days. 
07.30, remove crate cover, open blinds, cajole her out of bed for toilet. 
Toilet. #1 and 2. Snack so that she doesn't bring up bile. Pro Biotic. Choose a couple of toys, back upstairs. 
07.45- 08.00 she chooses to go back into crate for a nap. 
08.00 - 08.30 cuddle with husband while I shower and dress. 
08.30 - 09.00. 15 - 20 minute off leash walk/run in park 
09.00 breakfast Slow feeder, scattered on lawn, or in a Kong in her crate. 
09.30 more play/training reinforcement and then a nap. 
12.00 - 13.00 or so, at home lunch. play in garden. Training reinforcement until 14.30/15.00 Nap. 

15.00 - 16.00 if we are both home, walk on beach or trip to new stimulus. Nap.
If only husband is home, second off-leash in park/dog park and then nap. 
17.30 - 19.00 Zoomies! and some training reinforcement
19.00 Dinner second pro biotic and naps on and off until bed time. 


Doggy Day care days are the same to begin with then: 
09.20 - 10.00 30 minutes play/run around in garden 
10.00 leave house for day care
Daycare have nap time 12.00 - 14.00 and lunch 
16.30 - 17.15. Pick up from Day care and start evening routine....though she normally sleeps from pick up until 18.30 or so, and no Zoomies. 

Tuesday is training class, so we pick her up from doggy day care earlier, around 3.30-4.15 so she gets a rest before class 19.00 - 20.00, and we split her dinner this day, half at 17.30 and the other half at 20.15

Daycare have a crate but they tend not to use it. They are trying her out with it for periods of the day to see if it helps with our home situation....but in general, the puppy day care room has lots of beds around and they just turn out the lights at noon for two hours. Regular puppies lie down somewhere and sleep, newbies tend to keep going. The only days Maggie doesn't nap at this point is when her Vizsla friend Riley is there, then apparently they continue to play for most of nap time. 

I'm beginning to think that maybe we should try keeping the crate in the bedroom for home naps. She very happily will potter in there by herself, lie down and go to sleep...no protest, no problem with the gate/door being closed. Though we haven't left her alone there for more than 5 or so minutes as we get ready for bed. 

I'm looking for a behaviourist, as per Texas Red's suggestion, to come this week to see if they can shed any light on it....but I'm also thinking that maybe the bedroom might be the key. My other issue is that husband, despite his protests that he is 'house bound' due to Maggie, likes to have her daytime napping beside him. if he is in the study, that's fine, as she will happily nap there, crate or otherwise if you're in the room.....

The routine above has pretty much been it for the past month now. I haven't brought her to the office for a few weeks as I felt it was too disruptive while we try to get the crate training down. 

@Texas Red, you are amazing giving so much of yourself. But you could be right, she is probably training us...our Dally Phoebe certainly had us trained.


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## MaxB (Mar 11, 2019)

Update...Doggy Day Care are going to do some specific crate training on the days Maggie is with them, and behaviourist coming on Friday to see if they can pinpoint if it is us, or she just doesn't like the crate in the daytime. I suspect Texas Red is right and it's us, and she's training us, the madam. The behaviourist is also a trainer that we work with, and he loves our little Maggie, so I'm quietly confident the plan we come up with should work. Fingers crossed, and I'll update again after a weekend of crate training. 

Reading back on our exercise/training/play schedule, I hope we're getting it right. Play in garden involves fetch, soccer ball chasing, frisbee throwing and her general running around the garden like a banshee, with the odd somersault/high speed fling onto the garden couch. if it is raining, she and I will play inside the house with a tug, or I'll slide something along the floors that she needs to bring back to me at a run. I'm also using a prey dummy and hiding it, along with some 'brain training' toys that I have for the crate only.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Don't feel bad. You wouldn't be the first person trained by a Vizsla, and doubtful you will be the last. They are cute, sweet, and very, very smart. The combination is what makes us trainable, by them.
I'm sure the behaviorist will give you the tools to work through this. I would only be worried, if one of her parents suffered from the same anxiety.


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## Gabica (Jan 20, 2018)

this sounds very good. and yes, crate in the bedroom maybe your key.
Our first one took forever to accept the crate, the second one has slept in it from day 1. same breeder, different temperament and litter size. but they learn it, just sometimes need a bit of a different angle. very cool that u are not giving up and i am more than sure that u will get there soon.


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## MaxB (Mar 11, 2019)

Met both parents....our breeder was a farmer some 120 miles away who happened to have 2 Vizslas as his family pets. This was their third litter. Mum is 6, dad is 7. This was his last litter from his dogs. There were 5 pups in total. One was rolled on by mum, and didn't make it, of the 4 left, 1 dog, 3 bitches. We had the choice of bitches. We took the one that was not too quiet, not too pushy.....she's pushy now! Breeder has young kids and elderly parents living with him, the entire family took care of the pups, who were in a confined space indoor, with outdoor space for water/toilet, so I don't think it's a confinement issue. Mum and dad were lovely dogs, both came to say hi, sat beside us, were interested, nudged for attention but also went to their respective beds when told to. 
All of the pups went straight to the breeder when he was there, and to his kids, and to his elderly mother, so we felt that while he wasn't necessarily a professional breeder, he was responsible. We also saw the Irish Kennel club certs for the parents, and copies were given to us. I think she is just well able to manipulate me.... right now as I type she is fast asleep at 11.30 am in the crate beside me in the study. I'm not going to try the crate in the bedroom until after behaviourist has been here, he feels that to do that might set her back with that crate habit. 

last night at training she nailed emergency stop, figure of 8 off leash, and close heel, needless to say, she was the first to get it, and the youngest dog there. Still working on the jumping up though!...one thing at a time I suppose. 

I have to say that this forum, and you very experienced Vizsla owners is a revelation, and so helpful. So glad I found it, and hope some day to be able to help someone and give back. Feel like it's all take, take, take right now. 🙄.


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## Starrpath (Nov 7, 2017)

Congratulations on working so hard to create a well balanced puppy! 18 weeks is still young and there is so much their brain is trying to take in. I have a 16 week old, in addition to a 15 month, a 3 year old and a 13 year old. The major difference with my dogs versus your dog is someone to play with. I do not crate my pup during the day; I typically leave her outside for an hour or so, with the others, if the weather is mild. Then I bring her in and, if I plan to stay home, she can sleep either on the couch with me or on a dog bed near me as I work. At her age, I believe, she needs more room than a crate can provide her (she is completely crate trained though). I have an exercise pen 36" x 8 panels set up with her water and bed. She is house broken to know not to pee/poop where she is kept. If I want her contained during the day, that is where she goes. If I go out she is not in the pen for longer than about 3-4 hours. Her bladder control is strong enough for that time period and she gets enough exercise so that she usually sleeps through the time I'm gone. This might work for you to give her a stronger sense of freedom but still be structured for you. I trained my 13 year old this way too and, to this day, if the others bother him, into the pen he will go and just look at me until I close the door behind him. 
The one other caveat I suggest is to never give in to her "demands" when she is voicing her opinion on something. Wait, even if it's just 30 seconds, until she is quiet, then let her out while telling her she's a good dog. That way containment is never punishment but always a safe haven. Good luck and remember, she's just a baby


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## Moby_1851 (Dec 11, 2018)

This may not seem helpful, but as you can see you ar going to get a ton of advice. My 2 cents - you are going about it the right way and muchof the advice is spot on. The bottom line is anyone working as hard as you and most of the folks on this forum are gonna have great, well behaved adult Vizslas. 

So my message is simply this - my pup is 11 months. She was exactly the same as yours. I thought I was doomed to screeching that would eventually get me kicked out of my apartment. Her screech is ear piercing. However by doing much as you are doing, by not giving into it - it’s a tantrum - she hasn’t done it at all n the house for 3 months. She still uses the screech when crated at day care, at a friends house when she is done playingitheyard and wants to come inside...but it’s of limited duration and I hope with time she outgro too.

It will get better. Hang in there.



MaxB said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've been reading the various crate training threads on the forum.....all of which are very helpful, but none of which seem to help my own situation.
> Maggie is doing really well. Putting on about 1 -2 kgs per week, no more signs of a sinus infection, doing really well at training, and giving us much fun and laughter.
> ...


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## MaxB (Mar 11, 2019)

So, a little update for you all. We're still working on this! 😂
Trainer arrived on Friday morning and assessed. Leaving her in a room with the door closed, where she couldn't hurt herself, not going to work, she immediately started whining, scratching at the door etc, so we decided to work on the crate, which I am much happier about anyway. 
Trainer made some tweaks to the crate training I've been doing. 5 times a day, one of us works on the crate duration, usually after exercise or zoomies so she is a little more tired and focussed. We haven't yet managed to get out of the door yet, but we have managed to open and close it, stay silent and she has waited, crate door open, for about 2 minutes total. Pretty pleased with the progress as we have gone from an anxious stand in the crate while I potter about for a few minutes to a lying down wait. Gonna be a journey, but we'll get there.


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