# Spaying at 4 months?!



## WireyV (Dec 15, 2012)

Rigby is booked in for spaying on Monday. From her first visit at the vet clinic when she was 9 weeks they were encouraging me to get it done sooner than later and said the "thinking" had changed and you no longer needed to wait until 6+ months.

I've done some research though and keep seeing an issue wherein spayed puppies' growth hormone doesn't kick in to stop their bones growing, resulting in a taller and sometimes oddly shaped dog. 

I'm a bit lost about what to do...


----------



## Rufus Tiberius (Dec 18, 2012)

I would wait until she is at least 18 months old, preferably 24 months of age before considering having her neutered. Give her body the opportunity to fully develop before cutting off her essential growth hormones.

I suggest you read RedBirdDog's thoughts on this because they are very well thought out and he has excellent references for you to research before you neuter.

Just my thoughts on this.


----------



## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

I really would wait WireyV, as said above, until she's at least 18 months old.


----------



## WireyV (Dec 15, 2012)

To be honest waiting that long isn't an option, she will be going to doggy day care occasionally from 6 months and they wont accept intact dogs. so it's either do it now or wait two months...


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

From experience...please don't.


----------



## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

if you've already made your mind up then I'm not sure what you're asking, I certainly don't envisage many members condoning spaying at such a young age.


----------



## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

EEK! Please, please, PLEASE don't do this to your pup. Give her AT LEAST the 6 months. Spaying a tiny pup is like giving a 5 year old girl a hysterectomy. :'( While you're at it, do yourself a favor & find a different vet...


----------



## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

Hi Wirey,

We were a bit disappointed to find out that a lot of doggy daycares don't allow intact dogs. 

We ended up getting a dog walker to come when needed instead of doggy daycare. We even got two hour walks/runs/play sessions when needed. Or have them come 2xa day. Also some daycares do allow intact dogs (especially below a certain age), they just are careful to keep certain dogs out at different times. 

There is a lot of research to do and what you have found already is consistent with what I read. I just don't think waiting two more months will make the long term difference you'd like. I'd cancel the appointment and give her at least two more months, though if you're not sure. It also gives you time to make a long term decision. It's frustrating that vets don't always seem concerned with what's best for the individual dog (rather than the population as a whole).


----------



## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Wirey,

Please read all the posts on this forum re neutering and spaying. It breaks my heart to hear that vets are now encouraging owners to have puppies spayed as early as 4 months. As others have said it really isn't in the best interest of the dogs.

Try and let her have at least one season , and the have her spayed three months after that season.


----------



## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

Please don't get your bitch spayed so young,it changes them in lots of ways ,but rarely for the better. 
I'm a dog walker and I do take entire dogs ,search around there must be sensible daycare out there for your pup?


----------



## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

Have you asked the vet what they are basing their advice on? There may be some sound clinical research that they are aware of. I do sometimes feel that some members on this forum are a bit anti-vet assuming they aren't giving your animals welfare priority over other considerations. 

There are a lot of experienced Vizsla owners here but many will only have direct experience of a few dogs. Often what you are hearing is an expression of opinion rather than fact. Those opinions are well worth listening to but ultimately you will have to come to your own decision - don't let others make it for you. 

I too have to decide when to spay my girl. The vet (who has always given me good advice imo) suggested at six months and said they believed that there was no evidence that doing it later was any benefit to the dog. I didn't question them further because I didn't realise it was such a controversial subject and it wasn't a decision that I was making at the time. 

I have read the posts on this and another recent thread about spraying male dogs and the effect on their physique. The comments have certainly been thought provoking and have caused me to pause and look into this further before coming to a decision. I will be trying to seperate opinion from fact and I will also discuss this further with my vet who as a trained medical professional has a valuable input.


----------



## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Lyra has sound advice and you should research it thoroughly before embarking on a process which is not reversible. Considering all aspects is paramount. However, the one person you should not be listening to is your Vet. They have a financial interest and no matter how blindly you believe in them, they will always represent their interests to some degree or other. There are only two types of vet, the ones who admit this and the others who lie! 

Research independent and arbitrary sources. Ones which do not have a financial interest in it either way. This is not an anti Vaccination group type of thought process, but one based on research by several independent publications and people's experiences. Opinions, yes there are some, experience, yes there is lots in here. If I get time and motivation, I will dig up some of the articles. Others may have some links more handy hopefully.


----------



## WireyV (Dec 15, 2012)

Had no idea this was such a heated topic. I was a bit concerned as I had searched the forum for spaying and didn't see any references to a pup so young having it done.

I watched a talk from Ian Dunbar a few months ago where he said that whilst there may be benefits for keeping a male dog intact a little longer there was no research to support waiting for a bitch. There is an article here that more or less backs that up: http://www.moderndogmagazine.com/articles/neutering-fact-sheet/255. 

Thank you for the food for thought. Will have to have a think over the weekend and weigh up our options.


----------



## Angie NG (Jun 6, 2012)

I have been through the same thoughts about Bella who is now 8 months. When we had our first vets appointment they said it would be best to get Bella spayed at 6 months and at the time we agreed not knowing any better. After coming on here and asking for advice and also asking other dog owners we decided not to. I am not saying I will wait till 18/24 months but I am letting her have a season or 2 first. There is a lot of experience on this forum, I don't think I would have got through the last 6 months without it


----------



## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Hi Wirey,

We have a male vizsla and we also had him at daycare by 4 months. The daycare did not allow intact dogs past the age of 6 months old. I was really happy with this daycare on the whole, so I was disappointed when those 2 months were up and the owner reminded us of her policy.

Prior to Otto (and the exposure to beliefs that challenge the mainstream practices of neuter/spay that I found on the forum) I had always assumed we would neuter and we would neuter fairly young. Once we actually had Otto, it made me sad to think I would bring him in for a voluntary surgery of any kind. Then with all of the information I found here that argues that neutering/spaying is not the "magical answer" to solve all of your dog behavioral and health issues - it made me hesitate. We cancelled our appointment as well as took him out of the daycare (even though the owner swears he would become aggressive and hump - neither of which has happened!  )

Here we are, a year later, and I could not be more pleased with our decision to hold off as well as extremely grateful to have been exposed to more sound, less biased information. 

The only sound reason to spay/neuter at a young age is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. As luv2laugh suggested, look around for alternative forms of care for your pup while your at work or a daycare that accepts intact dogs. 

We don't have daycare or a walker - we are busy like everyone else but have unconventional work schedules so we are able to do all of his walks ourselves. I would at least give yourself the two months to do some reading and think it through! You can't go back once you've gone through with it.


----------



## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Check out this thread, the study on the Rottweilers is the one I was searching for but RBD included an excerpt from the article along with others. http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,2426.msg15740.html#msg15740


----------



## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

Ottosmama,

We are going through the same right now with Whistler. The day care has told us that he would not be allowed to stay past 7-9 month threshold if he became aggressive or started wanting to hump. It's a tough one because I don't want to do it before he gets older and fully developped. Also, the breeder we got him from may want to use him as a stud so keeping him intact is a priority. I just hope his temperament does not change and he will be able to stay at the daycare. If not, well I'm going to have to run home every lunch to get him out of the crate cause I'll feel too bad for him staying 8 hours in the crate while I'm at work..


----------



## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Whistler,

Obviously every dog and situation is different but in our case we definitely lucked out. As crazy as our little Otto is on the outside, here in the house he is pretty subdued. I think he must just sleep all day because the house is always how we left it, with the exception of a blanket or something on the floor. We've kept him out of the crate since he was 10 months old without a single issue. But as I said earlier - every dog is different. As Ms Whipple always says, "they chew 'til they're two!" - this always had me hesitant to let him roam free (for his safety). But he never chewed things that weren't his, except the occasional sock or his bed when he was VERY young. So we thought he was ready.

OK - I know that is off topic. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Our experience has proven that dogs don't automatically become aggressive because they keep the organs they were born with. Our boy has never shown any signs of aggression. The owner of the daycare swears that he was humping - which could have happened. However, I've never see him hump a dog - ever. All I can say is personally, if we had gone through with it, I would have regret my decision. I say, just let them be as long as you can! I can't tell you how many people told me that Otto would be much calmer if I neutered him (back when he was 4-10 months old). Well he is much calmer now and he wasn't neutered. He's not perfect, but compared to his early puppy months - he has only improved with age and maturity.

I can see why the owners of daycares enforce this policy - they don't want unwanted pregnancies, plain and simple. However, it bothers me when they try and persuade owners to neuter for any other reason. We did find a daycare that would accept intact males for an additional fee - you can always look around for one of those if you would like him to remain intact but would like to keep him in daycare.


----------



## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

You can also look for private home day cares. Miles is still intact as well (though has an upcoming appt) and we researched and found people in the community who accept intact dogs and it isn't much more expensive, and they are in the comforts of a house and yard.


----------



## AcadianTornado (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks Ottosmama and Milesmom,

Got me thinking about new stuff which I never had thought of! Plus the thought of actually leaving him out of his crate, that's got me smiling and thinking YEAH RIGHT!  (Is THAT possible with a V!?!?!?) He is slowly starting to mature and now he would be at 7 and 1/2 months... he's a bit calmer indoors and in the mornings he's not as needy for attention and affection but if he can sneak a bite in the cats bowl I don't think he will hesitate (actually, caught him doing it last night when I was asleep on the couch) .. little buggger!!

I will look into private home cares and also "intact" daycares if the problem does occur. We're moving into a new home in a few months and hopefully I'll get a fenced yard this summer so this will help enormously if he loses the daycare priviledges that we so deeply like!


----------



## adrino (Mar 31, 2012)

I've got a 14 months old girl and she's having her second heat right now. When we got her our breeder asked if we want to show or breed her (we don't) and advised us to wait with spaying at least until she's a year old. It was a big surprise when she had her first heat at 6,5 months old but we got through it and now she's having her second as I mentioned. It's a bit of an inconvenience for us but I wanted her to grow up first before we put her through spaying. Our Vet also suggested to wait until she's at least a year old. We live in a flat so it's even harder to deal with it but hey it's the best for her. 
We also use a dog walker who normally would take her to his house for the day when we need it but right now he comes twice on those days and only takes her to on leash walks as we asked him. 

I suggest you find a different daycare or a dog walker instead of getting your dog spayed because of pressure from your environment. Ask other Vets too what they all think. 

We knew when we got Elza that wether it's easy or not she will have the necessary time to grow up first before spaying.


----------



## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

Good luck!! I understand it's hard. There are a lot of dog off leash areas here that Miles is restricted from because he is intact still. We have an appointment in a few weeks for him, and then he will go to regular day care. He hates when gardener comes so he will definitely be going on Wednesdays! 

Hang in there! Miles was able to start weaning out of his crate during the day when he was 8 months.


----------



## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

I would also encourage you, Wirey, to look at actual studies rather than simply professionals in the field. The link Ottosmama posted has a good summary. I respect Ian Dunbar _very_ much and recommend his puppy books all the time, but didn't see a lot referenced in that article. My guess is that Dunbar approaches it from a behavioral standpoint rather than just medical. There are good behavioral reasons to wait for the male, but maybe not as many behavioral reasons for the female?

I like vets. I do not think most of them are just trying to get your money. I also don't think they know everything though and may have never taken the time to look into something that's not mainstream to see if it's true. Many just recommend the standard without looking any deeper. 

Overpopulation is such a problem in the doggy world that early spay/neuter may be the best recommendation for a lot of owners. It takes a responsible owner to care for a female in heat or an intact dog around a female in heat (unfortunately, they don't know if you will be that responsible). They may see the benefits of neutering as not as important (and most likely aren't that aware of them). In veterinary school, there is a lot to cover in a little time. Unless they specialize in something, I don't expect General Practitioners or vets to know everything about a certain topic. Some professionals are especially dutiful to stay up to date on current research and look into controversial areas for themselves, others are busy at home and work and don't make it as much of a priority. As you can see from the responses, different vets recommend different things, that in itself make it difficult for me to trust one vets opinion.


----------



## VictoriaW (Mar 16, 2011)

I'd recommend looking at the 2008 VCA health survey. The drastically HIGHER rate of cancer in spayed/neutered dogs is likely due at least in part to sampling bias...still, I was interested to see how very low the overall incidence of mammary cancer among these 2500 Vizslas (given that the risk of mammary cancer seems to be a main reason given for spaying early). 

Anyhow...all studies are imperfect but this is one to look at:

http://vcaweb.org/download/Vizsla-Health-Survey-Analysis_Final-V3.pdf


----------



## WireyV (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks for the input and articles. I've cancelled the appointment for now.

Spoke with the Vet about the growth issue and he said skeletal size is pretty pre determined and that diet and early spaying would have a fairly insignificant effect on the dogs full size.

He said the cancer risk goes both ways,
And repeated what I'd heard about the risk of mammory cancer increasing after each season. That Vizsla study is interesting as the odds are really swayed heavily against spaying. But that said not spaying her at all isn't a reality for me, so not sure if the cancer risk is decreased by waiting til 18 months or so.

Also, by chance, ran into no less than 6 vizsla's this morning,
All the girls had been done before 6 months (including two that were done by their breeder at 7 weeks...) Only one had anything bad to say in that he thought it could perhaps be a factor in why his girl was so big.

Other reasons doing it now are better are that I'm not currently working so can dedicate more time to her recovery, and she is still small enough to pick up to take outside etc.


----------



## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Something interesting to note is that most females don't even have their first heat before they are 12 months old (the age they are considered fully developed). Oh, and by the time your pup is 6 months old she will be able to hold her pee/poo for up to 6-7 hours at a time, so you could either crate her while you are away from home or you could set up a play room in the house for her blocked off by baby gates.


----------



## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Aside from the myth that there is an overpopulation of dogs (having recently visited our local shelter where 75% of the kennels were empty and dogs being imported from other regions to shelters...

There are significant studies that the mainstream Veterinary and Pro spay/neuter crowd want to totally ignore. For example:

We live very near one of the best Veterinary Teaching Hospitals in the Country, University of California at Davis. They did a study in 2010-11 on the effects of early spay/neuter:

"Dr. Benjamin L Hart, DVM, PhD, University of California, Davis
July 1, 2010 - June 30, 2011
Sponsor(s): Golden Retriever Foundation, Schooley's Mountain Kennel Club, Siberian Husky Club of America, Vizsla Club of America Welfare Foundation
Breed(s): Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever
Disease(s): Hip DysplasiaWith 2,018 cases for Labrador Retrievers, analyses resulted in more frequent statistical significance, profiling an impact of neutering, particularly on musculoskeletal disorders. Hip dysplasia was significantly increased in both sexes and elbow dysplasia in males. 
The study involving a differentiation between neutering done at 1 year of age or sooner (early), and that done after 1 year (late), in Goldens was very telling. When all three musculoskeletal disorders were combined to determine the risk of an early neutered dog acquiring at least one of these disorders, there was a risk of about 25% in males and 20% in females, compared to a 5-6% risk in intact dogs. 
While still preliminary, these results are of serious importance to breeders and owners of Goldens. 

Of the cancers, _*lymphoma was significantly increased in both female and male dogs neutered at or before 1 year. Mammary cancer was very rare in both intact and neutered females, as was pyometra*_. This project lays out, more than any other study, the consequences of early neutering, and when completed, should provide useful information in managing the major decision as to when, and if, to neuter their puppy."

M. Christine "Chris" Zink DVM, PhD, ACVP, is the director of the Department of Molecular and Comparative Pathobiology at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. She also holds professorships in the Department of Pathology at Johns Hopkins and in the Department of Molecular Microbiology and Immunology at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. Zink researches the response of the immune system to retroviruses such as HIV and is currently investigating an animal model of antiretroviral therapy[1] and the potential of a common antibiotic to prevent HIV-associated neurocognitive disorders.[2][3][4]

As a veterinarian, Zink is known for consulting and writing on canine athletics[5] and is an expert on stem cell therapies for dogs.[6] She was named Outstanding Woman Veterinarian of the Year at the 2009 meeting of the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA).[7] Her books include Peak Performance: Coaching the Canine Athlete, Dog Health and Nutrition for Dummies, The Agility Advantage, and Jumping from A to Z: Teach Your Dog to Soar and Building the Canine Athlete: Strength, Stretching, Endurance and Body Awareness Exercises

To read this HIGHLY qualified Veterinarian's research opinions on the effects of spya neuter -

http://www.thedogplace.org/Spay-Neuter/considerations-canine-athelete_zink.asp

In all due respect to your Vet that wants you to spay/neuter at 4 months old and espouses the belief that there is no impact on the dog's long term health all I can say is that perhaps the Vet needs to be better informed.

Ken


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I had someone ask the other day if a cryptorchidism unilateral male (only one dropped) would need to be neutered at 6 months, or if there were any higher health risks (cancer/testicular torsion) in waiting till 12 months.
Its not something Ive done research on. Ive only owned a horse with this problem years ago, and he was going to be gelded anyway. I sent him to Texas A&M for the surgery.


----------

