# Puppy bird intro - too late?



## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

We did a bird intro for the new pup Cooper this weekend with Ken's wonderful wife, Janet, from Willowynd Ranch just to see how he reacted. (He is a 6 month old re-home, for those of you who haven't read the story.) He met a few pigeons on Saturday and wouldn't approach them until they flew off. As soon as they flew away, he chased them for quite a ways. On Sunday, he got to play around with a chukar on a string. Same story with the chukar - if it was running/flying away he chased it, but as soon as it turned toward him he didn't want anything to do with it. We took home a frozen chukar with us, which he absolutely LOVED playing with in the front yard. I also cut off a wing and played "find the bird" in the yard.

Do you think it's too late to make him birdy? I'm trying to figure out if this is just part of the fear stage he is going through (everything spooks him right now... same as Riley when she was about 6 months) or if he just really isn't into birds because he had such a late intro. 

I don't really care that much if he's not a bird hunter. I just don't want to waste time on birds if he's not interested. I can pursue other avenues of hunting such as furry creatures. The previous owners did tell me he dug up, killed, and ate a gopher in their backyard as a small pup! 8)

Do you think I should stick with the bird intro?

You can see his reaction to the chukar here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw5Ewu6sBUE&feature=g-u-u


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## NeverGiveUpRAC (Aug 27, 2012)

Such a cute video! You can tell he likes being a "Good boy!!" hehe.


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

Your dog's reaction sounds very similar to my dog's. I probably introduced Bella to birds around the same time maybe a little later. She was curious but very cautious...She wasn't like some of the GSP's that would have latched on to the birds and shook them to death thats for sure...Anyway long story short, after working with her on the weekends over the summer putting bird in launchers and traps, she started to take interest. Yesterday I took her to the NAVHDA Natural Ability Test, she got a perfect score in the pointing, a near perfect for searching, and perfect for tracking. Unfortunately she decided yesterday was not a good day to go for a swim, so no prizes. Anyway - she loves to go hunting. So hang in there, I am she you're pup will come around.

I also found my pup got bored with Pigeons really fast. When we introduced her to wild birds, she was a much different dog....

Nate


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

He's actually doing well all things considered.

Now then for some things to try:
3 or 4 people is too much, especially when a bird is introduced. One person only and maybe a trainer should be max at this point. he can't have his attention divided like that at 6 months old.. I know everyone wants to be involved at this point, but for his sake he needs the clear black and white. without competing attention.
After the first overt praise, he probably thought he was done and then was unceertain as to what to do next. praise him for handling the bird. Make the picture very clear.

Drop the string on the Chukar. He's too old for that. If necessary either clip some primary flight feathers or attach some fletching to the bird to limit it's flight.

Change the location. the current one in the video is too static, and he knows it. Find a nice quiet field and let the birds go and land on their own and put down foot scent. then bring him into the birds. Try as hard as you can to not contaminate the area with your foot scent.

One bird, one flush, is enough at this point. he's definitely not ready to handle repoionts and tracking.

In the video he just looks like a nice young dog that is a little confused and was trying to put the scenario together by hiself. In essemce he was forced to make his own decisions. You, or the trainer, need to make his decisions for him.

I think he'll "get it" if you quiet down the sessions and remove the distractions. One bird, one dog, one handler/w trainer.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

I expect people are wondering about my response to this. Just for the record, there are plusses and minuses I see in the short clip video. I'm going to withold any further evaluation or discussion on my part until later in an effort to not taint or suppress any discussion, tips and so forth. 
Please be candid, it's fine by me. Learning is perpetual. I often video my own training and see things after that I didn't notice during. Game film. Though I can't believe I really sound and look like that, I've come to realize it only helps us become better. 
Ken


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

Cooper looks like a sweet dog!

I will be the first to admit that I am a complete amateur on this subject. My 14 month old female began hunt training (with a professional, not by me) at 6 months. He evaluated her first to see if she "had what it takes". In evaluating her, he took her out to see if she'd find and point the pigeons he had hidden (which she did). 

I was under the impression that part of "what it takes" is the dog's ability to instinctively point the birds, without any training to do so. In looking at this video I didn't see any pointing though, which has me a bit confused?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

The chukar was brought out after the pigeons due to it having a stronger game bird smell. Trying to see if the pup would show some prey drive. I don't care if it was on a string or wings taped down. I hate loosing chukar. They cost me double the price of quail.
Yes pups can be cautious at first intro but genetics usually gets the best of them. They want the bird. 
With Cooper having the life he had before I would be willing to give him some more time. He hasn't had experience on how to deal with new things in his life till coming to live with you. I don't see a lot of hunt drive in him but I'm always a optimistic person. I personally would let him stay at a trainers for 2 weeks to see if there is any improvement but wouldn't keep my fingers crossed. 
At home I would put birds out for Riley but let Cooper have a chance with them first. It doesn't cost you any more money that way, so nothing is wasted. I would even have Cooper tied where he could sit and watch Riley hunt. If nothing else he would enjoy the time in the field.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Never 2 late - never 2 young - I like quail - lock the wings and let the pup do what it wants - then it's intro 2 gun - seems like at 4mo the pup starts pointing - have no clue why - but past that age my pups do lock down!


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks for the input, everyone! We will definitely give Cooper some more time to settle in with our family before we do any kind of serious evaluation. I should also clarify - the sessions we did with Janet were purely to give Cooper a positive experience with birds. We were curious about what his reaction would be & I was also wondering if any of you had any thoughts on his reaction. It sounds like the overall feedback is to give him some more bird exposure & see if his instincts kick in. We don't honestly even know if he ever saw a bird up close prior to him joining our family. He really acted like he'd never even seen a pigeon before on one of our walks in Santa Cruz. He really did love playing with the frozen chukar at home, so I'm hoping this might encourage him to hunt now that he's tasted a bird! We will see - I will keep you all up-to-date on his progress.


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## AKGInspiration (Aug 23, 2012)

As you well know you just never really know with any dog. I always think it's worth a shot to get them interested or try to... he will show you later on whether this is something worth pursuing with him. I want to share an experience recently with a GSP pup who "comes from hunt" and is here to hopefully be hunt trained.. We are still evaluating him and trying to decide if he's got it.

We first "wing & Stringed" him to see if he would even point... that was a no go, he just was not interested enough. He did some flash points and some stalking but not a real birdy looking point. Not wanting to give up we went to a live bird. He was tied to a long line connected to our buggy (just me and my boss, so 2 people total in our sourgum field) We took it out of the bird bag, and waved it all around trying to get him excited about it (he is a puppy still and new to it all) He was kinda into it but not that much. So then we put it under a tip up wire bird box (they are great, keeps bird confined till you want to tip it up to release it... no trap/releaser noise to scare the newer dogs. Anyway he got really excited seeing it in that box but didn't want to point again... so we tried to target those moments of stillness and no barking with lots of calm praise.. and sure enough he put it together and pointed several times... We then decided to release the bird... let him watch it fly off, then untied the long line. Guess what he did, he went and began hunting that bird out. We never did find it, but you could really see the wheels turning in his brain and instincts starting to kick in. We left the field with him hunting and wanting to find that bird. Perfect first real intro to a bird IMO... 

Maybe something similar would help your boy... Contain the bird, reduce the people and have it in an actual birdy looking location. You can still make it a very positive experience with less people and honestly it probably would help him focus on it. Boys can be tricky like that, they often take quite a while to mature and have so many things running through their bodies/brains that sometimes getting things more simple helps. I really think the key was having that bird in the box that he could see to get excited about. I know some don't like that as it's sight pointing technically but you gotta start somewhere and sometimes that's the route you have to take for certain dogs. You can always wean off the sight pointing and force the nose relations but they have to care about birds first. 

You have 2 (that I know of) amazing experienced bird people near you so I am sure you will figure it out. Give it time and give it birds... Maybe you can find some barn pigeons to trap to use so you don't have to use chukars as often. Maybe someone even has some for sale.


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## Linescreamer (Sep 28, 2010)

threefsh said:


> Do you think I should stick with the bird intro?


That is up to you. He is interested. Are you? If so, I would let him get on as many birds as often as possible. The more these dogs get to explore outside, the more they hunt. They love it! It's in the blood. It shouldn't be easy. Let the birds go, and let him flush them out of some tall grass. Tracking the smell and finding the bird is where the reward is for them. Once you got him chasing and hungry to catch them, you can start developing him. Until you see that, it's all about getting him bird crazy!


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Cooper Meeting Chukar notes.

In this scenario, Cooper is a recently re-home pup. He’s been with Threefsh for around a week if I understand correctly. This setup was after working Riley in the field and was to see what natural instinct Cooper may have in a quick setup. 

The positives I see are that he does have interest in the bird and some level of prey drive, although I think a bit masked currently. He does lack confidence as indicated in breaking off whenever a person makes a movement toward the bird, displaying a submissive role moving behind people. This could be in part of the bird and in part due to his recent change in life and new people/place combination.

As to the comments of putting the birds in cover etc. right away. We very much encourage a dog to gain confidence or “Power over the bird” before worrying about a point or working cover or wind or tracking etc. The best way we’ve found to give the dog confidence is to wing clip or tether/tape wing a bird and let the dog see it, smell it and taste/pick it up. It's a one sided fight between bird and dog and it's definitely set up for the dog to be the winner. It’s important for the dog to get to the point of grabbing and carrying the bird a few times. This sets the bird strongly in his mind and alleviates the apprehension of finding a bird. Gradually you increase the challenge, releasing wings so they flap, short flights, larger birds, etc. Movement at that point to light/open cover is fine. They discover their inner animal when they pick up and carry game. After this we move to find birds in cover, but not really before. They need to know what they're after before they can go find it.

The other thing I noted was that the praise was at the wrong time by threefsh. (no offense meant threefsh – that’s the great thing about game film!) At 14 seconds, Cooper breaks off from the bird and is then praised effusively. What message does that send? I leave the bird and she likes it. 

At 23 seconds Cooper is showing interest and Janet takes a step toward him and the bird to free it from cover, he breaks off (submission)

At 46 he nose touches the bird (that’s when a good boy should happen) but it’s two seconds late after he breaks off and is reinforced praise for breaking off.

At 1:02 he’s heading for the bird as Janet moves to free the cord (towards him and he’s looking at her, not the bird), breaks off (submission)

To his credit, he regains interest again and heads for the bird (stopped at the fence) and when breaks off is again praised for leaving the bird.

I would do the following with Cooper.
I would take a step back up and move to quail, (which we didn't have at the time) and probably wing locked/tied but able to run initially. I’d minimize the wing flap and work hard to get him to mouth it/pick up. It’s smaller and less of a hurdle for him, allowing him to easier find success in gaining Power over the bird then progress through to chuckar/pigeons and pheasant. It’s especially important in cases like Cooper where he is somewhat timid initially. Baby steps. 

Second, Excited praise is fine at the proper time – and that time is when he’s chasing/grabbing or carrying the bird. When he leaves it is the time to be quiet. It’s counter-intuitive to us humans who want to praise them for a job well done, but that two second delay and we’re now praising the opposite of what we’re trying to achieve.

Would I stick with Cooper – yes, at least for several sessions to see how he develops. Given his re-homing/adoptee situation, I actually don't think having him sent to a trainer for two weeks would be the best for him. Weekly sessions, individual or group training would be great for him. We're going to do Saturday Training mornings when I get back to CA, I'll talk to you at the Rescue Picnic about it.

He’s doing fine given he’s in a new home, new people, new surroundings, new game with birds. His tail is up for the most part and he’s inquisitive. It’s certainly not too late. Here’s a picture of Pressey from last week – she was 9 months and a rescue who’d never seen a bird before. 

Ken


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Great points! I definitely need to work on timing my praise better. Cooper has really blossomed since we first picked him up and is gaining a lot of confidence in new situations. We'll continue his training alongside Riley and see how he does. Unfortunately, we can't make it to the rescue picnic (baby shower) but I'll be in touch via email.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

He's interested, but just wary of these "new" things. As I always say, repetition and consistency are the keys. Give him some time to start to work it out. I am sure, just like all mine, he will have a "I get it" moment soon!!!   Great to see you doing this for your dogs too 3fsh. Love your work!!!!!


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## Linescreamer (Sep 28, 2010)

If you spread peanut butter on the bird, I'll bet he will grab it in a heartbeat! ;D. Yeah praise definitely ASAP and sometimes subtle is better. He may also have apprehension based on some prior experience.


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## kentuckyrain (Sep 8, 2012)

Linescreamer said:


> If you spread peanut butter on the bird, I'll bet he will grab it in a heartbeat!




Boy, you can do a LOT with peanut butter!


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Linescreamer said:


> If you spread peanut butter on the bird, I'll bet he will grab it in a heartbeat! ;D


LOL! If we could spread peanut butter and strap a hotdog to the birds back.... he'd be all over it for sure.


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