# Dog Hierarchy?



## kristen (Oct 18, 2011)

Odin is now 10 months old, he has been heavily socialized since we brought him home. We live in an urban environment, and walk the city streets every day meeting tons of people and dogs. We also frequent off leash trails and parks where he has met tons of dogs.

The last few weeks Odin has not been his normal friendly self when meeting certain dogs. Some dogs its happy as usual, other dogs there is some obvious tension that has resulted in some growls (by both dogs). We have also noticed dogs being attracted to him, and dragging their owners over to see him (and usually this results in one of the dogs growling). A dog off leash kept following Odin growling at him on the weekend, and another got away from his owner to come over and growl at him as well.
I have no idea what signals he's putting out there, and need to stop it ASAP! I don't want to worry about him and another dog getting into a disagreement. Nothing has happened as of yet, and Odin is absolutely great with people and shows no signs of dominance with us, but whats up with other dogs?

I am thinking Odin thinks he's top dog? How do I knock him down a peg, and make him think that he's a middle of the pack dog? We have noticed this behavior since we started using a harness with him instead of his gentle leader (he is walking better so we switched him up to the more comfortable harness.) Does the Gentle Leader make him more submissive maybe?

I don't know much about dog hierarchy and would love to hear peoples opinions. Odin is neutered and in good health.


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

My boy Mac is mister confident and walks around with his tail straight up. This will make other dogs come over to us and correct him. He is getting really good now at learning how high his tail should be depending on the signs the dogs are giving him. 

It could be that your boy is doing the same and dogs are coming over to correct him. It is up to you to correct the behavior in Odin but also do be shy if a dog owner is correcting their dog to do so. Worst thing for either of you to do is to put them on their lead while they are still around each other. My guess is your boy is growling when another dog drags their owner over and that other dogs are growling when they come over to your boy and he is leaving his tail or ears up. 

The owner of the other dogs should not allow their dogs to meet your dog on a lead if they are pulling them over but sadly this is what people do. It dogs keep coming at Odin when both are off lead Odin will learn that he needs to put his tail down or he will correct them back and they will go away in most cases. It is unlikely to break out in a fight when both off lead unless the other dog is properly aggressive. You can correct off lead by either a whistle or putting your arms out to the side and yelling with a sharpe EEEEEETTTTTT! It does work well but not fool proof.
I wouldn't do the Gentle Leader to make him more submissive unless he is dragging you around.


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

> A dog off leash kept following Odin growling at him on the weekend, and another got away from his owner to come over and growl at him as well.


I had a slightly similar episode with my 17 week old puppy at a park!!! 

She was playing with a poodle (her new best friend) and they were really going at it, as they always do. Then an old black lab (is it OK if I also call him rude, fat and ugly? He was!) runs up to them and starts barking at my puppy. He would run up to her whenever they got very excited by their play and bark. She wasn't afraid or nervous but at some point I could see it was starting to get to her. I also noticed that that lab's owner was kind of expecting this behavior as he kept saying to his dog "Play nice!". So I picked her up and we left.

Another time, she was also followed (was run after) by two other dogs that had been trying to play with her. She wasn't interested. So they kept running after her trying to play but at some point, her tail went down and she ran to me. Again, we left. 

I'm exposing my puppy to other dogs all the time, but now I am trying to be extra careful that she isn't mobbed or overwhelmed so that she doesn't expect bad/negative things from strange dogs. My puppy is very friendly, outgoing and not intimidated even by gigantic Great Danes. But if I left her alone with that fat ugly lab, she could have started to react in a similar way as Odin did, I think.

To me, the question is - if Odin was bothered by an off-leash dog that kept following him, how would he communicate that? Maybe licking his lips or yawning or turning away and if that didn't work, what's left is growling. If he was being visibly "don't talk to me" unfriendly, why would a dog follow him? If all he did was follow you on leash, what would another dog have to "correct"?

Also - was he actually on leash when that dog followed him? I remember reading somewhere that a meeting where one of the dogs is on leash and another is off leash could make the restrained dog more tense.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

That's why I don't put my dog out there in groups of strange dogs. If we know the dogs, then it's OK but strange dogs are off limits until they are friends and pack order is clearly not an issue.


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

I've written about it quite a few time son here so many of you may know my 7 year old V Flynn has some aggression issues. he didn't for the first 1.5 - 2 years of his life. He always went to dog parks as a puppy and he was bullied a few times and was bitten twice (when he was young) there and it really had a negative affect on him. 

Our behaviorist trainer told us dog parks are part of the blame. She said they're full of bad dog owners (not any of us of course) who allow bad dog behavior. She said all of her problem dogs were dog park dogs. I know it's hard not to take your dog to a dog park but perhaps it's possible to meet one or two dogs you know your dog gets along with and schedule play dates instead.

This is just my 2 cents but I would hate for any of your dogs to develop any of the issues my dog has had over the years. We've worked a lot with him with a behaviorist and he's gotten so much better but his aggression is not gone completely. Just this weekend he tried to pin down a 2 year old v, and it wasn't "play". He was trying to put her in her place. he doesn't bite, just dominates but it's stressful and embarrassing. No one wants to be the one who owns the dog who doesn't get invited to the party.

PS - Our behaviorist also said the best way for 2 dogs to meet is both dogs on leash, on a walk - so they're busy doing something (i.e. walking) and aggression will be less likely.


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## Crazy Kian (Aug 10, 2009)

Kristen, you've met Kian, he can be a bully sometimes and very vocal too.

The other month an intact male gsp wanted to meet him, every time he went over to Kian he freaked and the gsp cowered. The gsp is 11 months old and BIG.
So the last time this happened myself and the gsp owner just walked the dogs, his dog on his left Kian on my right and we were a few feet apart.
After about 15 minutes Kian gradually made his way to the middle and so did the gsp, then we walked them like that for about 15 minutes. 
Once that was over they wrestled.
Now, just this morning on my run we met up with the gsp and all Kian wanted to do was wrestle and play with his new buddy.

I was very impressed with Kian on that walk....who knew, that Ceaser Milan guy was actually right ;D


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

MY dogs run with quite a few other hunting dogs and don't have a problem. The reason why is each dog has a job they are doing, and not really concerned with each other. Take those same dogs and put them in a small place with nothing to do (and not leashed) and I would foresee some problems.
If one of my dogs shows any type of power stance I nag them to get their attention back on me. It maybe a poke with my finger and me making a psst sound at the same time or me nagging them with a slip lead sideways. By nagging them with the slip lead I mean quick small tugs that are released quickly. Like Kian posted earlier walk both dogs on leashes first and they get used to each other without the power trip by either dog.


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## kristen (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Most of these incidents have been when Odin is on leash walking around the city. (we don't spend a lot of time at the dog park usually only once every couple weeks.) 
But even on our leashed walks, we come across a ton of dogs. Odin has always been the tail wagging friendly to meet everyone dog, but now his demeanor has changed with some dogs. In these instances, his tail is straight, no visible lip licking or anything, he just stands there calmly (or sits beside me). His head is held high. Rarely does he pull the leash to go towards these dogs. They are usually pulling their leash to get to him. There was a pit bull that literally was pulling its owner across the street to get to Odin. A friend walking with us actually distracted the dog and got it to walk the other direction by feigning having a treat. The owner was mortified (said he was usually friendly) and I am sure its Odin pissing off these dogs.
But its really hard when the owners don't have control of their dogs to remove them from the situation or even give the dogs a chance to meet on proper terms. We ran across three off leash dogs (in leashed areas) on the weekend, and every single one came up to Odin and growled, and then of course even if we try to leave the situation, the other dog isn't leashed, so we cant even remove Odin without that dog continuing to come after him. 

If Odin needs to be put in his place by another dog, I am fine with that, I just don't know where would be the best situation. 
I just don't want to have a dog who's a jerk, know what I mean? I am now not taking him to any off leash areas until I have confidence in him that he's gonna play nice.


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

I don't understand what Odin is doing that requires him to be put in his place. 

From your description he sounds perfect. Not scared, not submissive. Calm and well behaved. 

It's the other dog that has a problem, in my opinion, and it's probably because he's interested in playing but has zero manners. 

Why does Odin need to cower and submit for doing nothing wring?? My 2 cents.


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

Kristen, you could try just telling all the dogs and walkers you encounter "My dog can't say hi to your dog right now. We're doing a training walk and I want to keep him focused." Even if that's a little white lie it may help. I never let strange dogs visit with my dogs and at this point my dogs don't even want to meet them. They pretty much just walk on by and ignore any dogs we encounter, even if the other dogs are barking like crazy or trying to get to my dog. 

As for off leash dogs running up on your dog, this does happens to us and I think it's when Flynn feels the most threatened and in turn, becomes aggressive. I now yell to the owner "Please call your dog. I don't want your dog visiting with my dog. Please call your dog." I have been known to kick (though not with force - more like put my foot out as a barrier between an off-leash dog and my dog) to keep an off-leash dog away. I won't let someone else's poorly behaved dog put my dog in a situation where he feels unsafe. 

I wish you luck. I know this can be a stressful situation. I'm no pro but I'd be cautious about letting another dog put Odin in his place. I think that could potentially make things worse and make him more aggressive.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

flynnandlunasmom is right on the mark. You are Odins protector. He needs to feel that you will take care of things and he has no need to defend himself from other dogs. The best thing I have taught my dogs is to stay when a problem dog appears that is not leashed. That way I can deal with an unruly dog before it ever gets close to my dogs. My dogs are put on stay. Then I snatch up the offending dog by the collar, put a slip lead on it and drag it to it owner. Needless to say I don't go to dog parks and people that don't try to work with their dogs don't like me.


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## kristen (Oct 18, 2011)

I just have to think that my dog is instigating it, as its a new occurrence.
I just don't want him to do whatever the behavior is that instigates this kind of draw and response. Know what I mean? 
He isn't the innocent bystander here, hes pissing other dogs off, and he will stand his ground. He is growling right back at them and a few times I am thinking he's the one who growled first.
I want to be able to walk around the city and not worry that he's gonna cause a fight with his posturing or whatever it is.

I feel like he must be giving the equivalent of the middle finger in dog language. haha

Flynn & Luna's Mom, thats a good idea, and one I will heed immediately. "dog in training, too busy to make friends!" 

TexasRed, I kinda feel like he thinks he's protecting us humans. He has started giving barks to things he's unsure of around the house (a squirrel on the skylight, my husband coming home late at night in the dark house etc.) Does me stepping between the other dog make him protective of me? Is there something in my body language I can do to let Odin know that I am okay, and have the situation handled?


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## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

You might also keep track of which dogs have the undesireable interactions and when. Are they all small/big/furry/male/etc. dogs? Are they all new dogs or have you seen them before but never met them? If you change the time of day you are walking, do you still have the problem? Has there been a change in weather the last few weeks (like getting really hot) that means the other dogs aren't getting all their exercise?

None of those questions will change what you do to get on top of the situation, but they may help you avoid the issue while you are sorting it out.

Good luck!


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## flynnandlunasmom (May 28, 2012)

kristen, I was told back when Flynn was really doing this a lot, that it could be because he felt he had to protect me. I think it was sort of a cause & effect thing. It happened once or twice so then I would be nervous about it happening again. I would unintentionally tense up and put extra tension on his leash and give off signals I was nervous. Then, he would sense I was fearful and he would become aggressive and growl/want to lunge at other dogs. Our trainer said I need to be more relaxed and confident and in charge. Also, you stepping between him and the other dog would make him feel less of a need to protect you because he would see that you were protecting yourself, and him. 

Your guy may be the instigator (I know for a fact mine was/is often too) but if you can't stop that, you can at least control the situation by letting him know you're in control and by not letting the other dogs near him. 

When Flynn exhibits this type of aggressive behavior I give him a firm check/pop on the leash and say "No!" (I have him on a prong collar because he got really strong and I had to do it to control him - it doesn't hurt him, trust me). Like TexasRed said, after the check I would also make him sit and stay. I would make it clear to him that I was not going to accept his behavior. 

I really am sorry you're dealing with this. It's not fun.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Do you know someone with a well mannered dog?
He needs practice walking past dogs without paying attention to them. Walking with other dogs that are on lead too. 
Get this down before you start stepping in between him and other dogs.
Your goal is for your dog to be well mannered ( no buffing up or growling), so that you can step in and block other dogs.


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## kristen (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks so much everyone for your great advice! I really really appreciate it. It's like having a panel of experts in my living room!


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

flynnandlunasmom said:


> kristen, I was told back when Flynn was really doing this a lot, that it could be because he felt he had to protect me. I think it was sort of a cause & effect thing. It happened once or twice so then I would be nervous about it happening again. I would unintentionally tense up and put extra tension on his leash and give off signals I was nervous. Then, he would sense I was fearful and he would become aggressive and growl/want to lunge at other dogs. Our trainer said I need to be more relaxed and confident and in charge. Also, you stepping between him and the other dog would make him feel less of a need to protect you because he would see that you were protecting yourself, and him.
> 
> Your guy may be the instigator (I know for a fact mine was/is often too) but if you can't stop that, you can at least control the situation by letting him know you're in control and by not letting the other dogs near him.


Makes perfect sense.


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## Watson_Mills (Jun 11, 2012)

Just another thought, have you tried "blocking". We learnt this in Amber's obedience class last week - if Odin is on-leash and another dog comes bounding over off leash you block him ie: stand between the oncoming dog and Odin (facing Odin) - its seems a bit harsh and possibly a little rude but after 2 or 3 "blocks" the other off leash dog tends to loose interest ....


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

I tried posting in this thread last night, but it kept sending me to create a new thread for some reason, so I gave up and thought I would have another go tonight......

From what I read, it just sounds like 'Puppy Licence" has expired. At about that age, or thereabouts, puppies lose their puppy licence. That's the licence that makes adult dogs put up with miscommunication and social errors. Once past this stage, the adult dogs take more of an interest in pup and pup has to start acting more like a dog than a pup. Adult dogs become more interested in pup especially if pup still has all it's bits intact. 

Every dog I have ever had and my Vizslas are no exception, got to this age and had similar reactions from other dogs.

The fact that pup is neither intimidated, nor fearful is a fantastic sign if mine are anything to go by. Ozkar and Astro have similar temperaments and while they won't allow another dog to dominate, nor will they act aggressive. They will defend vigorously, but body slam more than bite. HTH


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

Watson_Mills said:


> Just another thought, have you tried "blocking". We learnt this in Amber's obedience class last week - if Odin is on-leash and another dog comes bounding over off leash you block him ie: stand between the oncoming dog and Odin (facing Odin) - its seems a bit harsh and possibly a little rude but after 2 or 3 "blocks" the other off leash dog tends to loose interest ....


I did this once - got between my bitch Dane and a black lab that came at her off leash, to block the lab and it bit my thigh. Have had a dislike for black labs ever since. I know it's crazy but there you go. So be careful :-\ :-\ :-\


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## Watson_Mills (Jun 11, 2012)

Oh god sorry to hear that.....definately be careful if you try this tactic, I suppose it's more controlled in an obedience class with dogs and owners that have been together for a few weeks rather than a complete unknown!


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## kristen (Oct 18, 2011)

On tonight's walk an off leash small dog got one look at Odin and put his head down, started barking and came at him. My husband walked towards the dog coming between Odin and I and the other dog. Odin was completely chill and ignored the dog entirely, and the other dog soon calmed, and both tails started wagging. It was a much better outcome. We ran into the same dog later on the walk, Odin ignored him again, but this time the little dog was on leash and happy to see him. 

Oz, did your other dogs correct each other? How long did they keep it up?


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

When Astro came on board at 6 months of age, Ozkar was a year and Zsa Zsa 18 months or so. So it took till about 8-9 months before Astro lost his licence. Now, they all just get along. Occasionally one will correct one of the others due to overstepping the mark, but it's not an on purpose thing, just exuberance going overboard and one not being up for it so they correct. But rarely now as they all adore each other. 

As for other dogs, Astro comes and goes with how he deals with other dogs, depending on how comfortable he is. Sometimes he is a whimp and submissive, but other times and I don;t know why, he will occasionally put another dog in it's place for doing the wrong thing. It's weird, some dogs I think.... Jesus... I can't understand why he's submitting to it, then other dogs, i am surprised that he dominates them??? Who knows....... main thing is they are mostly like yours, not aggressive, not submissive. No fear of other dogs, more an occasional wariness.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

a few months ago my sister-in-laws Great Dane/Rhodesian Ridgeback cross tried dominating Ruby, Rubes just stood her ground and gave as good back. My s-i-l was mortified/amazed at this as she always thought that her dog would just tear any other whelp to pieces (she was an abused rescue dog). Glad to say that no fight ensued and both dogs get on great now and show each other mutual respect, even sharing a bed sometimes


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## christinepi (Jun 29, 2012)

I agree with Veifera: I don't see what Odin's doing wrong. But I may not have the whole picture. Is it possible that his growling is entirely justified because the other dogs are rude to him? I read this article about this a while ago, and it was a huge eye opener for me: http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/42/97/


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Interesting article, but it would make it seem like the several times Riley has been attacked, she was actually having "bad manners". I am excellent at reading dogs and my girl has never provoked an attack. There is a Vizsla in the bay area walking group that hates puppies who would try to bite her when she simply walked *near* her. And I don't mean a warning (Riley's had plenty of those). I mean, a full-on "I am going to kill you" attack. She also was attacked by a male Vizsla on a "fun" walk we took after fun field trials. No signals from her there, either... she even rolled on her back crying hysterically as he snarled and stepped on top of her to finish her off (he was pulled off before he could hurt her, thankfully). The last attack I was not present for... but I can only assume that she didn't start it. Her knee was severely damaged and it has taken 2 months to get it back to a semi-normal state. It must be because she is naturally submissive that other dogs view her as a moving target. :-\


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## kristen (Oct 18, 2011)

Very interesting article.
Thank you everyone for your continued help. Will keep you posted on how Odin is making out.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Another thing to keep in mind is that Vizsla's are nuts! 
They get along great with many dogs, but any dog that does not like hyper-energy, will let them know. 
Mischa has learned to approach slowly and acts submissively until she knows she's safe, then snaps out of it and runs circles around the other dog...

A male dog is less likely to submit in that manner, and it may take you stepping in and letting your guy know that he has to calm down because you said so. 


Good luck with it. Hopefully we get to catch up next weekend.

-Dennis


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

a couple of corgi/daschunds have come to stay next door for a week or so, they've already started snapping and growling at Ruby through the picket fence...she just stood and looked at them with her head nonchantly cocked to one side..


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## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Kristen,

I'm grateful that you brought this topic up. I have often wondered what it is that Otto does to set off other dogs - because to me, other than wiggling and getting very close, he does not seem to be doing anything wrong. I too have wondered if he is doing the doggy equivalent of flipping the bird  Forever, since he was small, he has gotten negative attention from my dad's Bernese, my Aunt's older labs (4 and 9 who have laid off finally), golden doodles in particular are always extremely vocal with him, even if we just walk by and neither of us notice they are across the street. Other Vizslas have even gotten nasty with him. Otto is definitely all over the place when we bring him to dog gatherings, so it becomes difficult to watch him and the others' body language. It is definitely upsetting and I've spoke with others in person who I feel are more in tune with dogs than myself. For the most part, others have told me they do not see him being a problem or that he just has so much more energy and the other dogs don't care for it.

The article was interesting in that it gave me a whole new perspective. I went to my dad's yesterday morning and tried to settle Otto even more than usual around my dad's dog and between me correcting Otto and my dad's dog correcting him he started to avoid him (kind of, instead of going right up in his face he would be about a foot away, but still trying to engage).

Does Odin play like this as well? Does he constantly want to play when other dogs don't seem interested?

It's comforting to read that others also encounter this. Not that I like to hear others having difficulty, but at least I know it sounds common amongst the breed and Otto isn't necessarily a trouble maker.

One other thing he does is try and play, play, play and then when the dogs have had enough they will bark and snarl, Otto will flip over in a submissive position and they will back off. As soon as they do.... he is* RIGHT BACK * at it for more.  ??? : :-\
He has done this since he was a small pup


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