# low hunting drive



## mlg1900 (Jun 12, 2013)

Hi all, 
I came to you for some suggestions or tips to help increase the hunting drive in my almost 4 year old Vizsla. Ginger has her Junior Hunt title. But it seems that every time we are at the trainers fields with other people and dogs, she has no drive to get out and hunt she walks close to me or will run over to the gunner (the trainer) all the time. She has always seemed to shut down with groups of people / dogs around. Like she is always paying attention to what the other people are doing instead of hunting. When we get close to the planted birds, she finds them and points them fine. She is steady to flush and honors other pointing dogs. However, I feel the dog that I take to training is not the same dog that me and my husband hunt with during hunting season. She performs much better when she is with only us. She is not a big ranging dog and does check in with us often but she hunts and enjoys it a lot more. We often meet our daily quail limit as well. I feel this close ranging dog is all because of my lack of experience when I started her out. She is our first hunting dog. And honestly, we didn't get to her to be a hunting dog but she made us hunters because she was such a good puppy pointer and had a good nose on her. But, I would always call her back to us and never let her get very far. So, Long story short, I want to get her senior and eventually master but our trainer says she would never pass because her drive is so low. However, she is excited when she finds birds, steady on flush, breaks on shot, and we are still working on retrieves but she retrieved every bird during the fall hunting season. Which is HUGE because she wouldn't even pick up the shot bird until she was about 2.5 years old. I am still working on perfecting the force retrieve but she is getting there. Hoping that someone has some helpful ideas. 

Including a picture of Ginger pointing a quail on a log this fall.


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

I would train on your own. Start planting birds further out so she has to cover lots of ground to find them. Maybe allow her to chase again to get her drive up. 

Once you are happy with her drive very slowly work your way back to senior level manners and training with one other dog and handler. Don't set her up for failure in a setting that you know the stimulus is too much for her


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I agree with organic. 
It could be lower drive, but also lack of confidence around a lot of other people, and dogs. Plus look at are other people whistling, or calling out commands to their dog?

One of the worst hunts I've ever been on with Cash, was due to him listening to another person. Their dog was also named Cash, and boy did they like to handle that dogs every move. My Cash couldn't figure out why they kept calling his name, and whistling for him to work in closer. 
I could tell he was getting confused, and clearly his luster for the hunt started lacking. It was just better to put him up that day. 
The same can happen, even if the dogs have different names. I would work her alone a few times. Then see how she handles, if she's working across the field from another dog. Start them at different ends of the field, or handle her away from the other dog.


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## mlg1900 (Jun 12, 2013)

TexasRed,
What you described on the worst hunt, is exactly how it is at our training. My dog is shy with strangers and when she hears them whistling or shouting woah, come, here, etc. she listens to them and stops what she is doing. We have been going to this trainer for two years. Mainly, I go because he has the birds and gun for bird work. And the only time I can really train with birds is in the fall stocking season here. I am so proud of her when we hunt in the fall with just my husband and myself and I want to honor by finishing her titles. But if I can't get her moving more around other people, it won't be possible. 

Organic, I think you are probably right too, that her being there is not beneficial to us anymore. I am going to have to start finding another source for birds. We can train / release birds at the wildlife management areas but we can not shoot them any other time except during hunting season. How do you suggest I "reward" her hunting when we are not able to let her "get" the bird?


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## organicthoughts (Oct 9, 2012)

These dogs thrive on praise. Up here in Canada all our trials and tests are done without a kill meaning we shoot blanks. Our dogs still enjoy this and we train for this as well as shoot to retrieve for actual hunting. Fire a starter pistol instead of killing a bird and let her watch it fly away. This will be good for her training. Bring a dead bird if you want to work on the retrieve as well. You can keep a dead bird in your freezer and use it over and over.

I feel a soft stroke on the flank and a whisper telling her how amazing she is doing should be sufficient.

Sounds like you have a special girl. Enjoy


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

You might ask the trainer if you could buy a few birds from him. I would also think you could use a cap gun. It's a kids toy, so I would think wildlife management would be fine with it. Nothing wrong with killing a bird in a different manner, and when one flies away throw the dead bird for her. Just do one that way on each outing. Check the rules to see if the birds your using need to be banded. 
You can also look into raising homing pigeons.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

You're in Jersey, right? I know a couple people who have worked with and highly recommend this trainer. http://traindogsnj.com/
Can you shoot homers or pen-raised quail out of season on private land? If so, I'd try to connect with someone else and train in a brace so she gets used to working around others dogs, but in a small group at first.


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## mlg1900 (Jun 12, 2013)

Thanks for the link. I am in NJ, the very southern part. I know that in NJ quail is sort of protected and only huntable on 2 wildlife management areas in the whole of NJ during hunting season. I don't see how anyone would find out about shooting on private land if it is not advertised. Oddly enough I live very close to someone who has 2 master hunters, I think I am going to have to break down and ask her for help. I have been wanting to but don't want to bother her because she always seems so busy with her dogs show and hunt schedules. I definitely need help.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

If you find a place to train on your own, is it possible to do private session with the trainer. Then work on what you learned by yourself. Once you have that down do another private session for the next step.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

I've been following this thread a bit and can offer a few ideas.

First a disclaimer - it is difficult to ascertain the full situation of any training via text. One can only make the assumption that all relevant data is conveyed. 
There are times with any dog/owner/trainer combination where the three just don't click. It has happened with me and the best move for all is to simply acknowledge that fact of living beings and respect each other enough to discuss and move on. Given the data - It appears to me that both the trainer, who in a gentle way tried to say no more training would be fine with him/her (who will keep offering sessions as long as you keep coming and paying), probably is not feeling very vested in improvement as it sounds like several repetitions of the same with seemingly declining result. Additionally, it seems you are continuing to go out of convenience and familiarity rather than getting out of the comfort zone. Commendably - you are now soliciting help from others which is a great step in moving to another avenue, or methodology in training. 
To paraphrase all this - the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", equally implies that "If it's broke - fix it". Let's try to fix it.

Low hunting drive may be at play, but there is hope in that your dog does much better in a hunting situation. Dogs are not good generalists, rather they are very discriminatory. In other words, doing something in one locale (discriminating location) is learned for good *or* bad, but does not necessarily transfer easily to a broad or varying locales (generalist). By training at the same place with a group of people, the dog has likely come to expect one or a few repeated things that clip his drive - whereas when NOT at that locale and same environment he does not anticipate the same thing. We saw that with a dog that got scared at a hunt club from gunfire on their shooting/police firing range. The dog would come back to us for board train at our facility - we worked it in several different locales, with and without other dogs, shot and killed birds and the dog was happy as could be. We filmed it for proof. Then took the dog back to meet his owner, at the hunt club and the dog shut down immediately on the first distant shot. He was fine, everywhere but there. So I'd suggest there is hope for you that your dog may not be as low hunting drive as you might think.

Were I to work the dog, I would take him out solo, and start at zero. Forget about steady, forget about gunfire, forget about Senior hunter, forget about pleasing others, forget about working with other dogs - get the dog revved up and having some FUN! I'd start with wing clipped quail,_* no gizmos - no cords, no cards, no launchers *_- just birds. As with a pup, he can do no wrong. Don't worry about the bird, don't worry about hardmouth or anything else. Don't worry about the obedience slipping away, he's got to get his Mojo back. With drive comes all that follows. 
When he's ripping after a wing clip, scooping it up and playing keep away - GREAT. Move to some flyers that don't fly well, then flyaways - the key is FUN. No other dogs, just have a good time. You can do this in NJ - see link for dog training regs. (http://www.nj.gov/dep/fgw/pdf/dogtrainregs.pdf). You can release birds all you want, just can't kill them. When it comes time to kill them, find a spot or a trainer that will do PRIVATE lessons in PA (should be a couple hour drive) if you want to stay legal. PA dog training rules at bottom page of pdf http://www.pgc.pa.gov/HuntTrap/Law/...Trapping Digest/GeneralHuntingRegulations.pdf 

I could go on through the whole thing, but I'll not give you more than the first chapter. No cheating by reading to the end of the book.  Get through that one and I'll share some more.

Good luck, don't stress, have some fun!
Best,
Ken


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## mlg1900 (Jun 12, 2013)

Thanks Willowynd. 

So, clip the wings so the bird can't fly and let her go hunt for it? Or just toss it in front of her to play with? 

Since you mentioned hard mouth in your response that actually brought to mind my youngest girl, Flash, who is 2.5 years old. She is just about the opposite of Ginger in every way. Very big running, lots of hunting drive, more of a natural retriever. EXCEPT, I have always thought she was too mouthy / hard mouth with birds. Sometimes, I think she just likes to hear them squeaking as she is mouthing them. (squeaky toys are her favorite.) Last week at training, she literally massacred the bird, which was a first and I was VERY UNHAPPY about it. I have read online that force retrieve training will help fix the hard mouth. So, I have begun her FF training this week. Do you agree this is the next step for her? Or did you have another suggestion? Another person that goes to training with us also suggested maybe getting rid of all squeaky toys, or killing the squeaky in them?


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## mlg1900 (Jun 12, 2013)

I wanted to include a picture of Flash. This was her at training last Sunday. She was doing great with the retrieve and then about 15 or 20 feet away from me is when she dropped the bird and started hardmouthing it.


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

WillowyndRanch said:


> I've been following this thread a bit and can offer a few ideas.
> ...


I gave this a "like", but I want to endorse it more strongly. You are not going to get better advice here, or anywhere, except maybe a hands-on evaluation.

My advice is: what Ken said.

Bob


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