# Bites



## dockterdk (Oct 11, 2011)

My fiance and I got Remmie when she was 8 weeks old and she has always been agressive she is now 8 months old and a couple months ago her aggression got much worse to the point where she now bites to the point where she breaks the skin. She acts like this when she is tired and sleeping if we touch her or try to move her she will attack, she also has this behaviour when she is eating we can take food out of her dish but the second we go to pet her she attacks. We need to get this under control as we would like to have children but we are scared to even have children around her due to her agression. We have stopped allowing her to be on the couch or bed as we noticed it seems to be worse and she gets territorial however she still has the agression. We love her and do not want to get rid of her but I am scared that may be our only choice if we can't correct the situation :'(


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> _We need to get this under control_


You are right. You are late in the program. Now you have a young teenager out of control because structure was laking earlier.

You want to make it work? Are you willing to put in the "real time" it is going to take?

Find a dog trainer! You need someone to teach *you* how to teach your dog manners.

If your not willing to do this, re-home this dog quickly before the bad habits become chronic and this wonderful creature will need to be put down.

The dog is not the problem. Excuse the blunt response.

RBD


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## dockterdk (Oct 11, 2011)

We have been trying MANY things and have seen several trainers with her...she did not do this as a puppy therefore I would not start blaming us right away...My dad is a vet and we have even asked SEVERAL other vets for help we are going to be having tests done to see if something may be medically wrong...I was asking for help if you do not have any advise PLEASE don't waste your time replying...Thank you (by the way this is not my first dog by any means and I have NEVER had a hunting dog snap like this)


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

Hi OP,

I'm so sorry to hear about your dog. I am a newbie when it comes to dog owning, but have been reading a ton of stuff on socialization. Most of the things I read say that while it is more difficult to socialize an older dog, it is not impossible. 

I also think that you should hire a good dog trainer. I had close friends who didn't realize they were in over their head until their adolescent dog was knocking over their 5 year old daughter, tearing people's clothes, etc. They got help from a local trainer and it made a huge difference. The trainer even taught their little girl how to work with them.

Breaking someone's skin is very dangerous and you are on the right track to try to get your dog help. I agree with what redbirddog said that you should consider rehoming if you don't have the time to do it yourself.

I hope you keep us updated on what happens for you and your doggy.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

I just saw your second post.

If you have seen many trainers, I can't imagine that I could really help.

My suggestions as behavior therapist for kids w/ Autism (no experience with dogs territorial stuff or anything like that)

Be Proactive - You may want to try to establish a crate as her sleeping place. If she already sleeps in a crate, make sure she gets in there before she gets too tired with a good chew toy. 

Meanwhile, try working on moving her when she is awake and in a good mood. Catch her when in a laying down position, go like you are going to move her and then give her a treat. Do this over and over again while she's in a good mood and alert, until you are completely moving her. If you can, ask friends/family to do this as well and have them feed her treats as well. Once you have done this over and over again, maybe 100 times, there is a good shot she'll associate with you approaching her when she's laying down with a yummy treat. When she is great at doing this when not cranky, try it when she's in a "mood."

Do something similar with eating. In fact, you may want to only give her a tiny bit of food at a time when she stops eating and looks at you, pet her than give her more. When she is used to looking to you for more food, try petting her than giving her more when she is just starting to look up and then when she is just finishing her food. 

I am no an expert at all and I would think that the trainers would have better ideas, but you wanted suggestions. Soooo, there you go.

**Also, it sounds like there may/may not be an issue with bite inhibition (look at the link below, Dr. Dunbar's book, p.80) He says dogs with good bite inhibition will rarely break skin when they bite. If she has good bite inhibition, I would be more comfortable having her around educated kids (supervised only). But, if there is a problem there I may have to consider (being the protective pre-mommy I am) giving her up to a family better suited for her and if you decide to get another dog, getting one already grown so that you have a good idea of his/her temperament.

Sorry you are going through all this. 

http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/AFTER You Get Your Puppy.pdf


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## dockterdk (Oct 11, 2011)

Thank you! Most of the trainers say "she will grow out of it"...well she is 8 months now  We will be tryinng the treat thing for sure!! We do find that if we do the food thing it seems to help so we will continue that but we have never tried the treat thing...again thank you


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## Linescreamer (Sep 28, 2010)

If you don't want the truth don't read this. Based on your description; RedBirdDog is on the money with his responce. *NO DOG* reacts like described without warning or learned behavior. Maybe in a rare case where they were in an accident or suffered brain trauma. If that was not the case and you have owned this dog since he was a pup, there is nothing medically wrong with him. Any sign of aggression should have been handled immediately. Letting the behavior persist is a mistake that you made and you need to face it, make it right. Blaming the dog may make you feel better but it's not the path to a well behaved house pet. She has used the behavior as a way to deal with situations to get the result she desires. This dog has trained you guys like it or not. She is the pack leader and the big dog in your house. The rolls need to be switched. If you want to correct the behavior it needs to be done properly, with a great deal of consistency and from someone who is experienced or by you with the appropriate knowledge or guidance. 
By the way - if a trainer tells you the dog will grow out of it. Fire the trainer. Also, I get that your Dad is a Vet, respectfully - Most Vets are not trainers. Find yourself a good trainer that works with Vizslas and you will save your relationship with your dog. I wish you well.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/07/purchasing-vizsla-so-it-doesnt-end-up.html

luv2laugh, 

The book by Dunbar is an excellent reference. I have attended several of his seminars and he really understands dogs. We went to our first one before we got our Chloe about 5 years ago. We told him we were waiting for our first pup to be old enough to come home with us.
He looked at us after we told him the breed we were getting and said, _"Are you sure you know what you are getting into?"_ He explained the high demands the breed required to be happy. He kind of made us nervous about our choice. Maybe we had made the wrong decision. We make the right choice for our lifestyle at this point in time. Never would this had worked 20 or 30 years ago.

LInescreamer, 

Well said in your reply. Much better than my blunt remarks.

Sometimes, as Vizsla owners, we just have to know when we are over our head and admit it. 

Not everyone who tells you they are a dog trainer has a clue on how to deal with a sporting dog like the Vizsla.

Try field trialing for a humbling experience. You learn real quick how much you don't know about hunting dogs.

RBD


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## Aimless1 (Sep 25, 2011)

I think RedBirdDog nailed it. You got good advice, but it's up to you to recognize it, accept it, then act on it. I'm a new member myself and certainly not trying to defend a long time member, but he articulated what I was thinking when I read your post. Maybe you're ready to hear it, maybe not.

All I would add is that now is an excellent time to work on obedience training. It is the probably the easiest and best way to regain control.


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## sarahaf (Aug 17, 2009)

I think these responses are very judgmental, and I don't agree. Like people, dogs can, and do, develop aggressive behavior without having been raised wrong. Many people mistakenly believe that humans with aggression, psychosis, or anxiety developed it in response to their parenting. That is a gross oversimplification, and I can't emphasize that enough. We know from the science of behavior genetics that siblings in the same family are often quite different, not because they were treated differently, but because they drew different straws (so to speak) genetically. On average, sibs share 50% of their genes--that means they do NOT share half of their genes. Without getting into the statistics involved, this can be shown through a variety of scientific methodologies involving the study of families. We don't blame parenting for diabetes, arthritis, or hypertension--so why blame it (exclusively) for emotional and behavioral problems?

Now, as far as what to do about it: for aggressive behavior, you want someone with advanced level training in the science of behavior. Many trainers are quite good, but their level of education and expertise is variable. You need to choose someone with one of two credentials to work with you. Certified animal behaviorists (CAAB) are the "psychologists" of the animal behavior world. They don't have medical training, and don't prescribe medications, they only deal with behavior. Here is a directory of people with the CAAB credential:

http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/caab-directory

Diplmates of the American College of Veterinary Behavior (DACVB) are like the "psychiatrists" of the animal beahvior world. They DO have medical training, and can prescribe medications as well as use behavioral methods. Here is a directory of people with that credential:

http://www.dacvb.org/resources/find/

I wish you luck!


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> We don't blame parenting for diabetes, arthritis, or hypertension--so why blame it (exclusively) for emotional and behavioral problems?


When I reply to a post, I think of others that may read the post also. 

If a young Vizsla owner gets an aggressive dog, then the breeder should be contacted for help *immediately*. If it is genetics, the breeder should take the dog back or help the new owner get guidance. If the litter had several pups with aggressive traits, but might be great hunters, then the breeder should offer the pups only to veteran hunter dog people. The breeder should not use that pair again to breed. This is how we improve the breed by not accepting poor temperament along with poor physical confirmation.

My point was and is, no one should wait until the dog is 8 months to correct aggressive behavior.

Discipline must be a bad word these days. Many kids and dogs lack discipline. Lots of kids on sedating medication these days. Mostly young males. You see it all the time. 

Vizslas need discipline and a job to do to be happy.

It starts with the *knowledgeable* and *caring * hobby breeder and puppy buyer. 

RBD


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## sarahaf (Aug 17, 2009)

Agreed, RBD, if you have a serious aggression problem, you need to decide what to do about it. But it doesn't sound like the OP did nothing. They have a history of seeking advice about this dog. Whether to consider returning the dog to the breeder for resource guarding aggression (which is actually--at some level of intensity, from growling on up--a common behavior problem in dogs) is a judgment call. It's certainly an option, but returning the dog is not the only option even if the problem has a genetic contribution to it. Regardless, I agree that you should tell the breeder, because they may want to know that the problem exists just in case it is an issue with the blood line (more about that below--I have some background in genetics)*

I also think as we talk about dog aggression, we need to be clear that there are levels of intensity. Dogs have very strong jaws, and if they want to maim or kill you, they have no problem doing so. So even though I am NOT arguing that breaking the skin is not a problem in a pet dog, I do think we need to consider the level of force the dog intended to exert. If they want to maim or kill, they have the jaws to do that. Often, even if a bite was involved, you will see animal behaviorists analyzing the behavior to see how serious of a risk the animal is. Breaking the skin could mean anything from a scrape all the way to a wide open gaping wound and on up to a deadly wound or wounds. A professional can help assess the level of bite inhibition the dog was using during the incident in question (bite inhibition doesn't just mean not biting at all; it can also mean biting, but restricting onself to just enough force--and no more--to get the human or other dog to back away). I found this resource on the topic--see myth #4 in the link. http://blogs.dogster.com/dog-training/myths-about-dog-aggression-part-ii/2011/02/ So as we talk about "aggression" on this forum, it may be helpful for us to think of this as on a continuum just as it is in people. That dogs are not categorically either "vicious" (in need of being relinquished or destroyed), on the one hand, or "non-biters" (free of all potential for aggression) on the other. As pet owners, we might decide that even though our dog has a problem behavior that involves aggression, and even though we can't say what may have contributed to it (genetics, learning history, etc), we are not yet willing to surrender the dog back to the breeder because to do so would be to sever the human-animal bond. In that case, we have an obligation to seek the best possible behavior care for the animal.

*I can say that in humans, we often find that the genetic underpinnings of behavior don't involve mendelian or single-gene genetics (the kind you often read about in high school or college biology texts), but rather contributions of multiple genes (alleles) at multiple sites (loci). Because of that, you may not find a strong "pedigree" for the behavior problem as you would something like (in humans) PKU, which is a single-gene disorder. That doesn't mean genetic differences in temperament aren't at play, and it doesn't mean we can say the owner was at fault.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

dockteredk

Biting is a problem that seldom gets better with age, usually it gets worse, and one that can be mentally, emotionally, and financially devestating.

The Vizsla is a high powered hunting dog. It has the ability to pick up a baby duck alive, as evidenced in another post, or take down a wounded deer. It can easily snap the neck of an adult goose, mallard, or pheasant. It really is a dog that requires respect. I state this only to underline that the key to changing a Vizlsa's behavior is to understand what motivates it.
These are not the soft dogs that urban myth has portrayed them as. Expecting these dogs to be cuddly little wallflowers is a disaster waiting to happen.

There is aggression and there is assertion, Rarely have i seen aggressive Vizlsa's, but the best of the best are certainly assertive. They have too be to be successful hunting dogs. 
The best one I ever had was extremely assertive,and vibrated with intensity. He was also aggressive in some situations, not dangerous, and had to be handled properly. Even his breeder was a little unnerved by him when she watched him for me.

Now, what has happened?
At 8 months old your dog has been conditioned to get her way, and this is the way she is enforcing it. She is training you, and doing a wonderful job of it. The more often she gets her way, the deeper the patterned behavior will be. This is instinctive behavior, and has little to do with territory, or dominance. She is simply making her own decisions.

You now need to go back a step or two in training. Get her back on the leash, out in the yard and mentally rock her little world. Don't get physical with her or you'll reinforce in her mind that you aren't trustworthy enough to make the decisions. This is more mental. You are not trying to dominate her, or become the "alpha" or any such thing. You are going to teach her that you make good decisions and choices and she doesn't need too make them for herself.

Immediately though you must arrest the behavior at the food bowl, and now! Put her leash on her and give her her food, reach out to pet her and if she goes for you take her away from that food bowl, pet her someplace else and then bring her back to the food bowl and keep repeating it. Don't yank her off her feet, beat her or be aggressive. With detached emotion grab that leash and take her away, Again and again and again.
If you are at all emotive doing this she will read you like a book and anticipate the reaction. If she can't read you, she has to pay more attention to you.
Dogs react to pressure and external stimuli, such as emotion. Take away the emotion and you take away their ability to anticipate and react, or in essence slow them down. 
They instinctively know that they need to always be aware of their surroundings and any changes. Their survival depends on it. Compromise that ability and you have more control of their mind.
I know this may sound like a bunch of existential BS, but it works. Control the feet, and you control the mind.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Very good advice from those who really know Vizslas. Cute as they are, even as small babies they present challenges. 

I respect anyone who can keep these dogs a lifetime and give them the stimulation and exercise they need.

Someone, yesterday, put it this way...."what is that? a kangaroo?" as Sam mouthed the soccer ball they were playing with and ran around the soccer filed. Imagine, there are no kangaroos in Canada. I told them Sam enjoys American football more a lot more...as the ball bounces unpredictably.

Anyhow, as our breeder put it even an 80 year old single grandmother can take care of a Vizsla provided, proper leadership is given.


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