# Please help, patience wearing thin!!



## rebecca (Aug 20, 2011)

My boy is now 1 year and 7 months (still in-tacked). I've done all the basic training eg, socialising, sitting, heal, stay, sit other various commands. Take him out twice daily for walk/run up to 5 miles the only problem I have, and I'm getting to the stage where it's just so frustrating is when he's with other dogs. When I take him out with other dogs, he WILL NOT LISTEN, tried whistle training, food, positive reinforcement but he just does not listen, he gets so hyperactive, and will PULL PULL PULL on the lead, he'll even run over to other people when I have commanded him to COME, or blown on the whistle.
I see other dogs with there owners and I just feel like such a failure, I'm trying my hardest with training and it's just testing me to the limits, please don't think of me as a bad owner I just have no idea what to try next, any encouragement or advice extremely welcome!!

I just hope it's part of puppy stage or maybe he'll calm down once I get him neutered(once again not sure it will as have read up on that) I know I have chosen a working breed but I thought by now he'd be maturing into a calmer dog, don't get me wrong when he's inside the house he's as calm as anything, people must think I have no control over my dog and truth be told, I don't outside


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

He won't listen, don't get frustrated. Only deal with with the dog when YOU are calm.

What you trained at home, under NO distractions does not apply to outside where countless distractions are competing with your commands. 
The dog knows you are there but it also knows that he will find you any time he needs you.... The rabbit or the other dogs are not easy to find again so it MUST ignore you and finish his job first. 

Keep the boy on leash, get advice from a pro trainer... No quick fixes, here... just boring repetitive training 
.
Each situation is different and the dog must be "retrained" to face as many as possible. Start in a controlled environment, then add distractions one by one. 

As is, right now, you have the option to calmly walk up to the dog, gently and kindly leash him and walk away. 
If you get frustrated and hit the dog, yell at the dog every time you gain control it will end up being hand shy and weary of you. 

Get a trainer, please. Well worth the investment.


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## ZDOGSMOM (Sep 15, 2012)

Patience, Perserverence, Repetition and a nice cold adult beverage once you get home!  Hang in There!


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## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

Hi, your boy is still a teenager,he will embarrass and shame you at every opportunity,it's in his job description! ;D
No matter what he does,always smile! It doesn't matter if anybody thinks you or he is a fool : that's life!
Keep calm when he goes to play with other dogs ( I would let him),then wait til he's played a few minutes,and in that split second he looks back at you... then,call him just once,in a calm normal way.Set yourself up to succeed. Take the most delicious treat,like hot dog or cheese,for that one moment when he does come back to you. Walk on by. Don't go after him,he will follow you. say 'sorry he's just a puppy', he will follow you .. eventually.
Trust me, he will improve if you stay calm!  it just takes time and patience.Lots of time and patience 
Good luck!


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

I'll differ with many, but at 19 months of age, it's time for the boy to start flying right. I absolutely believe in starting dogs off teaching with positive reinforcement, letting them learn the desired behavior etc. Where I, and most Pro trainers will vary from the recommendations is that after the behavior is learned and known there is an option for the dog to have a positive reinforcer or negative consequence. 

I see 5 year old dogs that are "still a puppy" because the Owner simply doesn't demand adherance to commands. There is no treat in the world that we can supply that will cause a foaming mouthed prey drive bird dog to stop chasing a rabbit, deer, bird, etc. 

There is absolutely no downside for your dog at this juncture to listen, or not to you. If he doesn't listen, he gets to have fun doing whatever he wants, tunes you out to repeated pleas for him to come and probably gets a treat when he finally gets bored and comes a-lookin'. That's not training for recall, that's treating your dog for doing whatever the heck it wants to do, and just happens to come back.

I agree with Vida on staying calm, and the best way to stay calm is to be in control. I would start with a checkcord and call him - Once. When he doesn't respond, and he won't when he's excited over "X", then pop the checkcord and pull him in. There's no treat for that. You come, or I tug. Eventually I would overlay that with the e-collar to replace the tug at distance. If he comes on the first call, Atta-boy and some delicious cheese if you want. He's got to know that when you say come here, you MEAN come here - period. He's old enough and when he does it, you will both have more fun together.

Ken


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Ken -still looking for a REWARD for BAD behavior - or is it about the PUP ? LOL !!!!


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

That must V the best answer I read in a long time... It must V stickied.

Ken, where's my cheese, I keep coming back to the forum, LOL.


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

strangely enough I'm taking Ruby on a group training session today with a pro trainer and one of the issues on the agenda is recalling a distracted dog.
I don't think anybody here regards you as a "bad owner" Rebecca, you've been trying your hardest and as all of us do at sometime, you've hit a stonewall,. At least you're trying correct his undesired behaviour and that imo makes yoy a "good owner"


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## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

Hi, I know we are going back into old territory again,but I really need to understand how neg training ever works??
Please bear with me,I'm not so good at explaining myself.
Just a thought... but if we imagine a dog is like a small child in it's learning abilities/ mental capabilities...? Wouldn't we want that 'child' to trust and obey us out of love and respect? How can it be morally right to deliberately cause pain ( however minor) or discomfort? 
Surely, we should be allowing our dogs to make the occasional mistake? show me a dog ( or person) that doesn't! 
Training our dogs is a work in progress, til they,or we, pop our clogs. :


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

Firstly, Rebecca, my heart goes out to you. I can fully understand your frustration. Like a lot of owners we are struggling with a bit of deafness at six months but I agree with Ken, this isn't a pup and you could probably do with some professional help and some form of negative reinforcement to correct the behaviour. 

I have spent a lot of time thinking about positive/negative reinforcement with dogs. Lyra had perfect recall when she always got a treat but we are trying to move away from constant treat based rewarding for learned behaviour with mixed success. 

One has to wonder why a dog would come to you at all if there is something clearly more exciting on offer but clearly they can be trained to. I have many thoughts on this but I don't want to get too off topic.

Vida, god save us from children who have had no negative reinforcement - they become monsters! Whether physical or mental (e.g. withdrawal of some privilege, being sent to your room etc.) any good parent sets boundaries and reinforces them with punishments i.e. negative reinforcement. Anyway, dogs aren't children even though they may feel like that at times.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Vida,

*Negative enforcement* usually revolves around subtracting something valuable from the dog in exact proportion to the action performed. 

In the human society examples are, a speeding ticket, or if the law was really tested... Jail time. 
This translates to taking the toy away from the dog or putting the dog into a closet for a time out or causing minimal to moderate pain to condition a positive response. 

*Positive enforcement* is adding some element to the environment, like gifts for good behavior... Here you can clearly see how adding electricity to an ecollar is a positive event ;D


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## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

Apologies for any offense.
I know dogs aren't children, I meant that their understanding is limited ???
Also, I'm 106,so I was born before e-collars were invented  and I have no experience of them.
How do those of us who don't use e- collars get our dogs to do anything?? 
I do agree with getting a trainer to help you learn to train your dog. 
Good luck!


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

Why apologise Vida? We are only debating with you, you haven't caused anybody any offence. 

I am glad you can spot the difference between a dog and a child even if your eyesight might be failing a bit at 106


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Equivalent to a three year old. In fact, dogs are pretty intelligent.

The problem we face is we as humans don't communicate with them by barking and biting and posturing. 

Honestly, the ecollar is a pinprick compared to how dogs correct each other sometimes. 

In any case, if it is a psychological barrier, think of how a human corrects children sometimes. Many times emotions are imparted along with discipline. Every time emotions are involved we tend to screw up the result... Honestly, we get a better result if we sleep on it and deal with it in the morning. 

This is my approach with dogs. If something does not work today I leave it and try again tomorrow. In other words, I don't choose to up the dial on the collar or yell louder... Tomorrow will be different. 

So you see, it's about life quality and keeping it impersonal when it comes to corrections. 

The dog learns it is it's action that triggers the correction.


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

If it's any consolation Lyra managed *zero* recall on the beach today.

I'm dead depressed, lots of work to do :'(


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Lyra said:


> If it's any consolation Lyra managed *zero* recall on the beach today.
> 
> I'm dead depressed, lots of work to do :'(


On the contrary, we should be excited!!! IF everything works things become boring... as long as the dog's safety is not in question... We should almost invite them to make mistakes. 
Keeps us from sitting on the couch and watching movies and endlessly drinking beer and eating junk food... Hmmm that was the life.

Happy now?


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

Datacan do you work in a bar? Just thought you might be a bar steward


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

DID just that to put myself through college...


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## Darcy1311 (May 27, 2012)

Lyra said:


> Datacan do you work in a bar? Just thought you might be a bar steward


 My wife keeps calling me a bar steward..............dont know why, I have never worked in one :-\


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Maybe you should ;D

but then again.... so does mine... 'barsteward' without an original thought in his head.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

Real quickly, I've just got to right some misconceptions on reinforcement/punishment.

Datacan, you are definitely on the right track, just a little off. I have my degree in applied behavior analysis for HUMAN behavior (not dog!!). But reinforcement/punishment is the same.

Reinforcement is ANYTHING that increases a behavior.

Punishment is ANYTHING that decreases a behavior.

The positive and negative part refer to stimuli that is added or taken away (you were on track with these, but off track with your examples).

*Positive Reinforcement is when a stimulus is added that increases the future frequency of behavior.* It would be when something you like is added (cheese, toy, treat, praise, pets, etc.). A positive is added and it increases the future frequency of behavior. ex:"Wow, I got a toy when I sat, so now I'll sit more often"
*
Negative Reinforcement is when a stimulus is withdrawn that increases the future frequency of behavior.* When something unpleasant is taken away to increase behavior (sound you don't like is removed, thorn removed from paw, shirt is taken off that was itching you). A negative is removed and it increases the future frequency of behavior. ex:"Wow, I sat and lifted my paw, and the thorn was removed, so now I'll do that next time too." Certain training collars work this way, it's uncomfortable UNLESS they walk a certain way. When they walk that way, they are reinforced by the discomfort being removed. I think e-collars can be used this way as well, but am uncertain with the practice. If they were it would be keeping a low vibration and removing that vibration when the dog behaves correctly.

*Positive Punishment is when a stimulus is added to decrease the future frequency of behavior.* This would be hitting or an electric shock or adding something disliked when they do a behavior. "Yikes! when I did this, I got hurt, I'm not going to do that anymore." It doesn't have to be hurt, it could even be putting an itchy shirt or getting nails clipped. "Yikes, they told me to give them the paw and now they are cutting my nails (which I don't like), I'm not going to do that again."

*Negative Punishment is when a stimulus is withdrawn to decrease the future frequency of behavior.* Taking away an item that is enjoyed. "Yikes! when I came when they called, they took me home (taking away other dogs, friends, stimulation)." It can be taking away a toy, fun environment, etc.

Punishment and reinforcement happen all the time whether we are controlling it or not. Getting a ticket and jail time would both be punishment, not reinforcement. And when it comes to the original topic, coming to you when there are much more interesting dogs nearby can seem like negative punishment. He comes to you and loses time with the dogs. Most likely though, he hasn't really had that experience because he's not coming.

We want coming to you to be the best thing in the world and eventually an automatic response. But, he's not going to be able to learn that unless some training and consistency is involved. Putting a check cord on him or long leash is really the only way to make sure that he will respond when you call and you want every single time for him to respond to that command. 

We've had a lot of trouble with this too. With all commands, not just come. We got the long leash and would sit outside with Oso, just calling him and reeling him in throughout the outing. We also sat outside by the side walk and did tricks with Oso when other dogs passed by. (we started first inside, then outside with no or few people/dog distractions, then outside with distraction). We haven't done the check cord or leash with other dogs as I was worried about tangles and maybe it didn't even occur to me. It helped though to play with Oso too and luckily for us, Oso preferred running around and playing with us over the other dogs (if we sprinted and made it extra fun). So, when we ran and he ran with us, or played with him with a toy when other dogs were around, he kept his eye on us more to see if we would do something fun. We could then call him knowing that he would chase and reinforce that way.


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## Darcy1311 (May 27, 2012)

WOW that's heavy reading for a winters Sunday evening....


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## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

I ask again, politely. How do the rest of us who don't use e-collars get our dogs to do anything we ask of them???
I truly believe in my values, and stick by them.
Good luck!


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

We accept and make compromises, Vida. 

Especially off leash, especially when faced with multiple distractions. We simply accept that the dog will do what the dog has to do and at the end... it will return to us. 
Wether we turn and leave and hope the dog will follow *(in most cases it will) or we walk up to it and gently nudge him homeward, the result is a compromise. We called, dog did not obey on first command.


Regards,
Julius


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

I love 2 laugh... also 

I was only joking when I referred to electricity part being positive enforcement... the real reward is stimulation OFF.

I found they prefer stimulation to Vibration any day. Vibration drives them crazy and shuts my dog down (unless they are really would up), whereas stimulation is simple tickle...or not, the boy decides.

Bottom line, dog comes on first command every time, once patiently conditioned.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Vida said:


> I ask again, politely. How do the rest of us who don't use e-collars get our dogs to do anything we ask of them???
> I truly believe in my values, and stick by them.
> Good luck!


I'm totally with you Vida. I do not and will not use them. In my mind, if i have to use one, I've failed, not the pup. I have a little secret method I use. Lots of people won't use it as it requires a couple of ingredients some people do not have. Patience, time, repetition and consistency.  that's honestly how I do, and have always, trained my pups. That and lots of love.

Data, as for a solid and reliable recall, mine are as good as they get and have never had an ecollar nor barely a harsh word!! Mine do it because they get it, not because I make them do it!! I like it that way and I feel much better about things when I curl up in bed with them at night!  Just had to put that in there as there are other ways rather than an ecollar.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Totally agree and respect your stellar accomplishments. 
My grandpa and his brother never heard of ecollars and they hunted with three dogs at once. Amazing, saw them back each other, never ever competing just pure collaboration as though they were one.

Having said that, we did like Ken's answer a lot, didn't we?


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: Re: Please help, patience wearing thin!!*



datacan said:


> Totally agree and respect your stellar accomplishments.
> My grandpa and his brother never heard of ecollars and they hunted with three dogs at once. Amazing, saw them back each other, never ever competing just pure collaboration as though they were one.
> 
> Having said that, we did like Ken's answer a lot, didn't we?


It's rare to read one from any of the old guard that I don't like Data............  I even like most of the stuff you write though, so don't read anything into that.........


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Fun thread to follow. 8)

To the OP: Rebecca, can you get to a Pointing breed field trial this spring just to watch and observe? You will learn more in a weekend from professional and accomplished amateurs in that one weekend than reading 2,000 HVF posts. Watch how the dogs and handlers relate in the field. No training collars are allowed by the way.

Maybe rent "Where the Red Fern Grows." http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/04/where-red-fern-grows.html

Have fun and don't stress too much about the teenage years. Train, train, train. It's what teenagers need. 

RBD


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

RBD, so true, so true.... I joined some long time V hunters last year and was left awestruck. No amount of reading can do that.

That leaves us with.... 2000 - 1838(my posts)= 162 more posts to ignore


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## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

Ozkar said:


> [quote author=Vida link=topic=7672.msg58679#msg58679 date=
> 
> I'm totally with you Vida. I do not and will not use them. In my mind, if i have to use one, I've failed, not the pup. I have a little secret method I use. Lots of people won't use it as it requires a couple of ingredients some people do not have. Patience, time, repetition and consistency.  that's honestly how I do, and have always, trained my pups. That and lots of love.
> Oscar,welcome down off the fence!
> Data, as for a solid and reliable recall, mine are as good as they get and have never had an ecollar nor barely a harsh word!! Mine do it because they get it, not because I make them do it!! I like it that way and I feel much better about things when I curl up in bed with them at night!  Just had to put that in there as there are other ways rather than an ecollar.


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## Vida (Dec 26, 2011)

Sorry,I meant to add... !
Welcome down off the fence Oscar!!


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: Re: Please help, patience wearing thin!!*



Vida said:


> Sorry,I meant to add... !
> Welcome down off the fence Oscar!!


Oh....Vida.........you obviously haven't read many of my posts............. I've never sat on the fence...........


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

Vida and Ozkar - Just as I appreciate the dedication to craft of a master craftsman that produces handmade furniture - meaning without the use of a single power tool, so can I appreciate the level of dedication and commitment to the craft of training a dog without the use of electronics. Vida and Ozkar are the master craftsman of the handmade dog. A wonderful accomplishment and duly admired. 

That does not however, mean that a chair made in a craftsmans' shop with modern equipment and fasteners is any less stable or beautiful than the one made entirely by hand. The difference lies in the journey and length of time required to produce the piece. The e-collar is nothing more than a tool, like a lead or piece of rope or flat collar. Just as a hand drill will drill a hole in a piece of wood, so will an electric drill press or cordless drill. They all produce a hole, some more precise than others (if you've ever hand drilled a hole you know exactly what I mean); they just function differently.

The vast majority of people have neither the time or patience to train for years for a recall, just as the vast majority will pick up a cordless drill and make the hole they need, vs taking a half an hour cranking a 100+ year old drill and getting a wobbly off center hole. 
In answer to your question Vida, given the numbers of out of control dogs witnessed, and numbers of posts on "I give my dogs treats but they don't listen to me", I wager the average dog owner quite often *does not * get their dogs to do the things they ask them to do. Actually, I'm thankful for that in a way, as if they did, I'd have to find another job! 

A lot of people also don't know how a lot of dogs were "trained" in the good ole days before the cordless collar, but popular and published acceptable methods included things like soring their feet, Slingshot rocks, pepper with birdshot, chase down and beat then drag them back to the point of infraction and beat them again... I'm old enough to remember seeing all of these. Sadly, I still see it to this day.

I'll stick with the cordless collar over those good ole methods any day.

Ken


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## Racer (Apr 23, 2012)

To the OP. Hang in there! I can understand your frustration since I've been there. My boy is close in age to yours and still intact. When he was younger, I had very little control of him. It got to the point where he would literally just look at me and walk away. Fast forward to now, and he is really well behaved. He does have his moments, but those are rare.

As was already mentioned, NILF is a fantastic approach. The dog earns everything. Especially food. When he was younger I ran him through the paces before he could get his meal. This included 5-10 minutes of a down stay before he could finally dive into the food bowl. I believe another element that is particularly useful, but I'm not sure if NILF really covers it is impulse control. So lots my work with the boy involved impulse control. Please bear in mind this took weeks to get to a point where he was consistently listening. But it was also consistent.

As far as the dog not listening around other dogs. When this occurs, you should leash up the boy and take him away. Or if need be, carry him away. Yeah, I know that sounds crazy, but at least for my boy, I find that carrying him away is effective (esp. if you they will just end up pulling on the leash hard). This is all easier said than done, since you need to get close enough to get them. Once they calm down, you can release them and let them resume playing. This is teaching them that you are in control and that by them coming back to you, it doesn't mean the end of play.

You may also want to make your boy think that you would abandon him (aka. hide from them). This is particularly effective if your dog really likes being around you. Much easier if you are with someone else, but if you have a good vantage point where you can see them and they can't see you, then that works too. My earlier approach was to hide on him. But if hiding didn't result in any reaction, I took him away off leash. At this point, my boy does think I'll leave him behind (which I would never do!). I still hide on him, but mainly because I think it is funny.

BTW, I don't really train with treats unless I'm teaching a new behavior. I haven't carried treats out on a run for quite some time. Eventually if you work with your dog long enough, you should be the most reinforcing thing in your dog's environment. So them listening to you is because they want to, not because they are going to get treated with food.


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