# Adult vs Puppy



## armgwag (Sep 22, 2017)

Hey All :smile

I am curious what the general consensus is on when your puppy is considered an adult. I have read it's at 12 months, but I've also seen it's not until they're full grown. Which means between 15-18 months? 

Any V aficionados have an opinion? 

Thanks all!


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Maybe it's because their growth slows down at that age. I would no longer consider them a puppy at 12 months, but not a full adult either. 
Mine have never developed the full width of their chest, until closer to 2-3 years old.


----------



## armgwag (Sep 22, 2017)

Thanks Texasred, you have all the good answers! I should just message you directly ;-) I read they developed slowly, so then from a diet perspective you should switch them to adult food at 12 months. Got it. Thanks again.


----------



## MikoMN (Nov 29, 2016)

Along these same lines, has anyone seen if the chest will continue to fill out if they are neutered at 2 years? I have wondered if that is an age thing or a testosterone thing. I guess it would answer that if a female fills out up until then as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Cash was not neutered until 3 1/2 , and the girls were also spayed later.
I was not considering dogs that had been spayed/neutered before 2.


----------



## tknafox2 (Apr 2, 2013)

My smooth V was 2 when we neutered him and he was fully grown and deep chested... after he was neutered he filled out, but not in a good way... prior to the clip job, he was fit, lean, muscular... after, he put weight on very easily and became fat looking.. he will be 5 this year. 
His best buddy smooth V who is 4 months younger was neutered at a VERY early age... he has very long legs, and very long feet/paws from elbow to pad... he stayed about 15 lbs less the our pup, but now that he is 4 yrs, as beefed up considerably, and that has happened in just the past year to 18 mo. 
I would put them at very close to the same size and weight... they are vertually twins

SO It would be my opinion that a male... reaches adulthood in the 2-3 yrs range, and it doesn't matter when they were neutered.

I now have a wirehair... he is huge for his breed and stands about 29" and weights 80 lbs. he was neutered at age 2 ... I adopted him at 2 1/2 
he has matured physically in the year I have owned him. by a lot... he is hairier... more muscular, heavier, as far as his chest size from 2-3 yrs
I have not had to adjust his halter which does circle his chest. but it is not loose, and does leave an indentation on his fur when it is on for any length of time, which it did not do when I first got him and he was 75 lbs.


----------



## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

Mine's 4.5 and still very much a puppy...emotionally anyways.

They tend to grow at their own rate..physically, too...and it's often uneven. If you're asking about food/kibble, that would depend on his activity level, higher protein=muscle development=adult food. 

With regards to neutering...I so wish the general consensus on this would change already...there's increasing data to support leaving them intact, testosterone is involved in much more than fertility. So in addition to bone growth and muscle development..things easily seen...there's the metabolic processes that change fairly significantly, too.


----------



## armgwag (Sep 22, 2017)

So in regards to neutering, it would appear 2 years is the ideal age to have them clipped? Or is it based on the dog's ability to fill out?


----------



## Anida (Jun 10, 2016)

armgwag said:


> So in regards to neutering, it would appear 2 years is the ideal age to have them clipped? Or is it based on the dog's ability to fill out?


if you absolutely have to do it, I'd at least wait until after 2 so they have all their hormones while their developing. Personally, if I get another male dog again, I won't neuter him ever.


----------



## armgwag (Sep 22, 2017)

Anida said:


> Personally, if I get another male dog again, I won't neuter him ever.


So why do we neuter or spay? I understood this was because "backyard breeders" were over populating, and breeding carelessly diluting down bloodlines. Also, due to irresponsible dog owners whose dogs were loose and either got hurt or injured other animals. Because of these problems Vets and others started down a road of promoting clipping and spaying at 6 months no matter what. Some would say overkill. As an example...I know some friends who just got a dog, he doesn't even have his 12-13 weeks shots and they told me they clipped him already :sad


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

The main reason there is a big push to spay/neuter at 6 months, is due to overpopulation of unwanted dogs.
They want to do it, before they have a chance to reproduce. Responsible owners need to look at what is best for the dog. I'm not against spay/neuter, but would rather the pup benift from the hormones. Each must make their own decision, based on lifestyle, and the dog. 
If I were never going to breed a female, she would probably be spayed by 4 years old. If I had a male that I was not going to breed, and no intact females. He would probably stay intact. If I had intact females, he would be neutered between 2-3 years old. Only because it's a royal pain dealing with the whining, panting, and keeping them separated.


----------



## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

armgwag said:


> So why do we neuter or spay?


Probably b/c "We" don't ask enough questions and do the research.


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

armgwag said:


> So in regards to neutering, it would appear 2 years is the ideal age to have them clipped? Or is it based on the dog's ability to fill out?


There is no ideal time to neuter a dog as it is very bad for their health.

Earlier is worse but never is ideal.

Bill


----------



## armgwag (Sep 22, 2017)

Good feedback folks, this is a topic that definitely needs more social awareness. It's only logical that our furry companions will benefit from having their body parts produce all the necessary hormones to help them grow. 

Anyone have experience or an opinion on Zeutering? If so, do you know if the testicles still produce testosterone at 50% or is it complete elimination of production altogether? My vet said it's complete elimination of testosterone while another vet told me it's only 50% reduction.


----------



## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

Ovary sparing surgery (bitch) or vasectomy (dog) is the way to go. Nearly all the benefits of infertility while preserving essential hormones.

Finding a vet who can/will do the procedures is the challenge.


----------



## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

armgwag said:


> Anyone have experience or an opinion on Zeutering?


The real question is the need for any intervention, and the answer is no.


----------



## armgwag (Sep 22, 2017)

lyra said:


> Finding a vet who can/will do the procedures is the challenge.


Yep. i checked into vasectomy it was very hard to find someone in my area. Thanks for the feedback!


----------



## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

armgwag said:


> Yep. i checked into vasectomy it was very hard to find someone in my area. Thanks for the feedback!


I don't want to put too fine a point on this, but I have strong feelings against neutering, so bear with me.

It's unclear why you feel the need to look into anything here, what are your concerns leaving him as is?


----------



## Gabica (Jan 20, 2018)

Our boy is intact, and so far that is our aim to keep him like. However if ever needed in the future we would go to the local breeder hospital, they seem to offer the vastectomy and ovary spare spaying. Maybe that is something to look at in your area? Just an idea.


----------



## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

gingerling said:


> It's unclear why you feel the need to look into anything here, what are your concerns leaving him as is?


As texasred said, the reason vets so strongly recommend neutering now is the result of a deliberate policy to try and reduce the number of unwanted dogs; apparently it has been very successful in this.

So my answer to "your concerns leaving his as is" is simply we all have a responsibility to avoid unwanted pregnancies. Our dogs have very good recall but I would never be confident that I could guarantee 100% reliance when faced with the challenge of a potential mating. Our dogs also spend a lot of time roaming freely and are often out of sight for periods of time while they follow scents etc.

There may be some that feel that as an owner of a dog (as opposed to a bitch), that 'it isn't your problem' as you don't have to deal with the consequences but I believe that's a pretty immoral position to take. It takes two to tango so both sets of owners are equally responsible for an unwanted pregnancy. I'm not suggesting that anybody here is expressing that attitude but I'm sure there are plenty of dog owners who do.

I would turn the question on its head. Why not get your dog sterilised (and note, I said sterilised, not neutered)? A vasectomy is a very minor operation. For a bitch the choice is more difficult as the surgery/recovery is more extensive but for us, we traded that against not having to severely restrict her activity during her heats and the stress of worrying about her getting pregnant if we did attempt to give her some freedom during those times. We chose to go the OSS route after her second heat at the age of about two and a half.


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

The widespread embrace of neutering as a means of birth control has lead to devastating health consequences for dogs.

Those who doubt the negative health effects would be well-advised to read the 3 major veterinary studies on the matter: The Rottweiler study, the Golden Retriever Study, and the Vizsla study. They are quite clear.

At the moment the veterinary community is in turmoil because evidence-based science shows their profession has participated in a practice that is injurious to the health of individual dogs. Every day that neutering persists as the standard option only increases the shame.

As a responsible dog owner, I consider it my duty to train for 100% recall and not to allow my dog(s) to wander. If I could not meet these requirements, then I would find a vet who was trained to perform vasectomies. That sterilization would not change my perception that not being able to control or contain a dog is acceptable or responsible.

A vasectomy is a relatively low risk and preserves beneficial sex-hormone production. In contrast, the embrace of the most radical of all "birth control" options as standard procedure defies reason. We have allowed very misguided groups of radical so-called "animal rights" to set the agenda. This has catastrophic consequences.

At my local dog park, people now compare their dog's orthopedic surgeons like parents once compared orthodontists, due to the CCL tearing epidemic that is one (of many) health consequences that is increased by early neutering.

If some of us seem outraged by the practice, it is with very good reason. The harm is clear from the evidence.

Bill


----------



## armgwag (Sep 22, 2017)

gingerling said:


> It's unclear why you feel the need to look into anything here, what are your concerns leaving him as is?


Hey gingerling, you're correct. Sorry, this thread has changed direction from my initial post and I never gave any information on the trending topic. I have no immediate concerns leaving him in tact nor do I have an foreseeable plans to have him clipped. I do notice that some dogs play more aggressively with him and or target him. I was told this was due to him being in tact? While this isn't a major concern since I am his guardian I feel like I do a good job looking out for his best interest to avoid or remediate these situations when or if they come up. I was simply picking up information as I had looked into all this as part of my first time Vizsla owner "due diligence." Just collecting information :nerd


----------



## armgwag (Sep 22, 2017)

Spy Car said:


> The widespread embrace of neutering as a means of birth control has lead to devastating health consequences for dogs.
> 
> Those who doubt the negative health effects would be well-advised to read the 3 major veterinary studies on the matter: The Rottweiler study, the Golden Retriever Study, and the Vizsla study. They are quite clear.
> 
> Bill


Hey Bill - I also read the Vizsla study. Definitely something every owner should digest, very compelling information for sure.


----------



## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

armgwag said:


> Hey gingerling, you're correct. Sorry, this thread has changed direction from my initial post and I never gave any information on the trending topic. I have no immediate concerns leaving him in tact nor do I have an foreseeable plans to have him clipped. I do notice that some dogs play more aggressively with him and or target him. I was told this was due to him being in tact? While this isn't a major concern since I am his guardian I feel like I do a good job looking out for his best interest to avoid or remediate these situations when or if they come up. I was simply picking up information as I had looked into all this as part of my first time Vizsla owner "due diligence." Just collecting information :nerd


There's a lot to digest when you're a new dad, so +1 for you for asking all the right questions and giving all this some thought. It's hard to sift thru and assess the accuracy of all the hyperbole and all the often contradictory advice/opinion, especially when given by the vet. Personally..and brace yourself, this is rampant cynicism coming at you....I believe vets push neutering and spaying not so much for the "unwanted pregnancy" component, but rather b/c of the self serving nature of the financial benefit to them. Simple awareness and common sense along with owner responsibility and effective training usually provides the same results, with no adverse health effects to the dog/bitch. 

I agree the least invasive procedure..always...is preferable, so sterilization instead of neutering is preferable for those who do not feel confident with their own abilities...that the veterinarian community hasn't offered them and continues to lag in making them available suggests that maybe my cynicism is founded in fact.

I've had 3 healthy, happy, vibrant V males over the years..all un neutered...and although there have been minor skirmishes with other dogs over the years, nothing that would make me rethink my decision. It might help you to reconsider your use of the euphemism "Clipped" and instead substitute "Amputated" as that is closer to reality and will provide a more serious sense of the procedure and the result, which is life long impairment. The testes/ovaries are involved in so much more than fertility, it's like removing a vital organ or other part of their bodies.


----------



## armgwag (Sep 22, 2017)

gingerling said:


> There's a lot to digest when you're a new dad, so +1 for you for asking all the right questions and giving all this some thought. It's hard to sift thru and assess the accuracy of all the hyperbole and all the often contradictory advice/opinion, especially when given by the vet.
> 
> I've had 3 healthy, happy, vibrant V males over the years..all un neutered...and although there have been minor skirmishes with other dogs over the years, nothing that would make me rethink my decision. It might help you to reconsider your use of the euphemism "Clipped" and instead substitute "Amputated" as that is closer to reality and will provide a more serious sense of the procedure and the result, which is life long impairment. The testes/ovaries are involved in so much more than fertility, it's like removing a vital organ or other part of their bodies.



Hey there, thanks for the kudos. We're trying to ensure he's got the best life possible. Indeed, there is much information coming at you as a new puppy parent. A reason why I appreciate this forum as it allows me an opportunity to fact check against an experienced group. I've actually changed my vet because the first one was bent on me bringing Jaxson in at 6 months for the procedure, the 2nd one knew about the study on V's and did an assessment of my situation and concluded leaving him in tact is a great option. I appreciated her modern approach and knowledge. 

Noted on the suggestion of terminology and reason behind it, thanks again for the feedback and direction! :nerd


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

armgwag said:


> Hey Bill - I also read the Vizsla study. Definitely something every owner should digest, very compelling information for sure.


The Vizsla study is important and has obvious relevance given it is breed specific, but when you have the opportunity check out the other studies as well. 

When one bucks the prevailing culture, one will eventually run into someone who reacts to an intact dog with militancy. 

In those moments having the full facts at one's disposal can both blunt the attacks and offer assurance that one has made a wise and reasoned decision that comports with the best available science.

Bill


----------



## TexasBirdDog (Aug 30, 2017)

If you don't have to, don't do it. The negative health consequences far outway the issues of having an intact male. As mentioned above, there have been at least three major research reports released that conclusively give the same answer. Three different reports on three different breeds all with the same summary. That's not an accident or coincidental.

To your question, if you were to do it, I would wait until 2 years after the major growth has completed. If you have to do it earlier, never prior to 18 months as you could have some growth issues as a result.


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

TexasBirdDog said:


> If you don't have to, don't do it. The negative health consequences far outway the issues of having an intact male. As mentioned above, there have been at least three major research reports released that conclusively give the same answer. Three different reports on three different breeds all with the same summary. That's not an accident or coincidental.
> 
> To your question, if you were to do it, I would wait until 2 years after the major growth has completed. If you have to do it earlier, never prior to 18 months as you could have some growth issues as a result.


Great points. 

To expand on the "growth issues" involved with early neutering, the sex hormones are involved in triggering bone-plate closures. 

Without them, bones keep growing, bone ratios become disproportional, and dog's get "leggy." 

The same phenomenon happened when there were human eunuchs. Disproportionate (tall) bone growth.

The unbalanced bone growth is widely believed to be responsible for for the dramatic increases in CCL tears in early-neutered dogs as it throws off a natural gait. 

In breeds as active as Vizslas undermining the muscular-skeletal balance seems especially risky.

Also breed-specific (beyond the cancers, weight-gain, ligament injuries), are the negative psychological consequences. Vizslas tend to be very sensitive and are often prone to separation anxiety and fear-anxieties. Neutering usually increases those psychological problems.

Bill


----------



## Gabica (Jan 20, 2018)

Once again I have to praise our breeder: it is in our contract not to neuter Bende until he is fully grown and consulting them with vet results even after. Responsible and breeder of merit title well deserved. Having said that, we like science and studied ourselves a lot about possible long term consequences of early altering of dogs, so never even occurred to us that we want to go that path. We may or may not ever breed him, just have him live a full life.


----------



## rimrock5151 (Nov 13, 2012)

I have had two male vizslas fixed while they were pups and no health problems. 

But, it alls comes down to you making the choice. Not someone on this forum or a vet. Do you want the dog to be able to reproduce?


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

It can also be dependant on the breeder you chose. Some breeders now are putting it in the puppy contract.


----------



## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

rimrock5151 said:


> I have had two male vizslas fixed while they were pups and no health problems.
> 
> But, it alls comes down to you making the choice. Not someone on this forum or a vet. Do you want the dog to be able to reproduce?


Since intact dogs are not "broken" in the first place and it is well-established by medical science that surgical removal of the testicles has serious health consequences, castrated dogs are not "fixed." There could not be a more inapt euphemism for this practice.

This is the most radical approach possible to birth control in dogs. A hormone-sparing vasectomy would ensure a dog can't reproduce without the catastrophic repercussions of "neutering."

Bill


----------

