# Hiding behind trees



## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Beautiful snow covered paths tempted us today. 
:-[ 
I hid behind trees before to get Sam's attention but today was different (different part of forest and quite far away). 
I was pleased to see him come running toward the tree but he blew past the tree and ran as fast as he could toward the car along the path we came in the forest. He was looking for me along the path. Problem is the car was parked 1 Km away.
I realize now what a devastating mistake it was to hide form him. 
Working on Whoa command with him for quite some time, he fails at larger distance. Also his hearing is switched off when he is in drive.
I will have to drill this into his head.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

I've done that before as sort of a punishment for not coming when called. She would look all freaked out, then super happy once she found me. 
We've played this game at home as well, and it's funny to hide in a dark corner and see that she can smell me, but not see me for a few seconds. 

So you hid, then when he ran past, you called him to let him know where you were, and he didn't hear you? 
Or did you not call to him, waiting for him to come find you?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Just step out from behind the tree before he has a chance to pass you. My male was a mommas boy when he was young. He would sit down and howl if he lost sight of me for very long.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Mischa said:


> So you hid, then when he ran past, you called him to let him know where you were, and he didn't hear you?
> Or did you not call to him, waiting for him to come find you?


Called his name, he kept running along the path where we came from.



TexasRed said:


> Just step out from behind the tree before he has a chance to pass you. My male was a mommas boy when he was young. He would sit down and howl if he lost sight of me for very long.


I never have to step out from behind any tree. He always know where I am. That's what made today more bizarre.



Ended up running after him calling his name. Must have ran for more than a minute. He came back to meet me. Strange experience.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Maybe something spooked them Datacan?? You just don't know. Zsa Zsa got a little freaked on a walk today. Wouldn't leave my side for half an hour.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

What you're doing is actually a contact drill used to instill in the dog that he needs to maintain contact with you. It's a good drill.
Where you made a slight mis-judgement was letting him run past.
In his mind he is now lost and failed, and has no choice but to run down his backtrack an re-establish contact.
Next time, watch from behind the tree and then moment you know he is looking for you step out in plain sight going in a different direction than you were. Call his name and give him an come on command and when he gets back to you act as if nothing in the world is any different. Make him believe he missed a turn by not paying attention, not that you hid on him.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Datacam,
I agree with Ozkar about something spooked Sam up ahead. It could have been anything that you didn't see. Don't beat yourself up.

Took Chloe and Bailey on a hill walk a couple years ago. The dogs were up ahead and Bailey went to the left and Chloe went to the right. I followed Bailey and expected Chloe to come over the ridge to us.

The thing I didn't know was that one of the hang gliders flying off the ridge swooped down on Chloe and she bolted 3 miles before stopping. Lucky she had our phone number on her collar and we went and got her when a park walker found her.

Sam's job is to know where you are. That is part of his "job". Your training is making sure he understands this part of the job. However you teach Sam this important part of the job makes him a better "team member."


http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/12/faith-based-vizsla-training.html

Good luck.

RBD


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Thank you very much for the insight guys.

I agree hiding is a valuable training exercise. My mistake was letting him run past the tree. 
There was no wind and he was not chasing, only scent trailing.
He backtracked, stuck to the trail. I thought he was not paying attention to the trail or me. But he stuck to the trail and ran toward the car, 1 Km away. Luckily he knows his name because he sure doesn't whoa at a distance.

Lesson learned (by me) - :-[

Julius


RBD, I often pondered if my dog ran out of sight, if he was wearing his e collar how would that be useful? Beeping would not be heard by me - perhaps a separate beeper may be useful.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

datacan said:


> RBD, I often pondered if my dog ran out of sight, if he was wearing his e collar how would that be useful? Beeping would not be heard by me - perhaps a separate beeper may be useful.


A whistle and an e-collar in training works well. One of the drills we do is 9 -- 3 when hill walking. A hunting dog should stay at 10 --2 in front of the hunter. When Bailey hits the 9 and 3 positions in relationship to me (on a clock dial), I give him two short toots on the whistle. If he doesn't turn almost immediately toward the front, I use a mild stimulation to get his attention. He then moves back into the favorialbe hunting zone. This is while he is "in sight." 
I don't think I have ever tried it when he was out of my sight. He has to be gone a couple minutes now for me to concern myself.
With the Tritronics G3 I got a annoying beeping collar that came with it. You could put that on the dog and hear where he was. It's loud and can be heard from a long way away. Used it a couple times early on. Keep working on "Sam's job is knowing where you are."

RBD


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

datacan said:


> RBD, I often pondered if my dog ran out of sight, if he was wearing his e collar how would that be useful? Beeping would not be heard by me - perhaps a separate beeper may be useful.


The cool thing about the beeper is that you aren't suppose to hear it. It's quiet enough that only the dog hears it, and comes back to you. If he is lost in deep cover, the beeper and a voice command should help him find you.
Did you overlap the beeper with the "come" command?

If not, it is very simple. I did it for about 10 minutes in the house, and she was basically set.
You just yell "come" or whatever your recall command is, while hitting the beeper until they get close. Give a treat each time during the training phase, and continue with the treats randomly after that. Once he responds regularly, stop saying "come", and just beep him. 
I beep until she begins running towards me.
Treats reinforce the good behaviour. 

I've been pretty lucky that she always comes at the beep, but if she doesn't, I'd give a quick buzz, then beep again. 
The dog needs a strong recall before you can overlap the command with a whistle or e-collar, so if that isn't the case, just do the first step over and over until he comes every time. Inside and out.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Mischa said:


> The cool thing about the beeper is that you aren't suppose to hear it.


I meant this beeper http://www.sportdog.com/Gear/E-Collars/Accessories/SD-AB-Add-A-Dog-Beeper 
apparently, it's annoying and too loud for a Vizsla's close range. That will save me money, I considered it but not knowing if my dog would need it. 

The soft tone feature on the collar is cool I have it set so it sends tone for 1 second then it sends continuous stimulation on low. Works nicely because Sam chooses how much and how long stimulation he wants (option #5 with the 2 dog selector switch in down position). The downside, it sets the side button to vibration 
=======

I am going to be working on Whoa at a distance and do the 3 and 9 o'clock thing, RBD suggested. 
Close by Whoa works nicely but put some distance and he comes to me...why Sammy why?


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## tracker (Jun 27, 2011)

Whenever Lui and I are on off leash walks I always try to change directions or turn around a few times during the walk. He will always keep going for a few seconds, then sees im going the other way and bolts towards me. So fun to watch them run full out back to you, tail wagging 100 mile an hour.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

datacan said:


> I meant this beeper http://www.sportdog.com/Gear/E-Collars/Accessories/SD-AB-Add-A-Dog-Beeper
> apparently, it's annoying and too loud for a Vizsla's close range. That will save me money, I considered it but not knowing if my dog would need it.


Yeah, from what I read that type of beeper is useful for deep cover so you can tell where he is, and I think they stop beeping if the dog stops moving ie: while on-point. A bell is a much cheaper option.

I see the one you posted has many different types of tones. Can you use multiple sounds for different commands, or can it only do 1 sound that is programed at the time?


We're city folk so bells, whistles, and/or loud beepers aren't really an option.
I get a real kick out of the quiet tone button. ;D


I don't understand what it is you're trying to achieve so I don't think my tips are very helpful...


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Mischa said:


> I don't understand what it is you're trying to achieve so I don't think my tips are very helpful...


I was trying to make my dog pay more attention to me since I thought he just ignored me.
I learned that I should jump out from behind the tree when he approaches and that basically Sam does know where I am and how we got there. This time by keeping behind the tree I scared him, as Gunnr explained. Also I should not let my dog lag behind.
The additional beeper is not an option anymore - don't want to look and sound like a clown.

Good lesson.


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

datacan said:


> Mischa said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand what it is you're trying to achieve so I don't think my tips are very helpful...
> ...


Oh, ok. Now I get you. 
The whoa talk had me scratching my head as to what a beeper had to do with that. 

Our bird trainer would say "come-around" when she wanted her to change direction back in front of us, but not come to us.
I do the same thing that tracker mentioned. Change direction just for the heck of it so she comes running back my way. I say "come-around" as well now just to keep the command fresh in her mind. 

That may work well for you.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Thanks.
Like that also.... ;D


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Mischa said:


> datacan said:
> 
> 
> > Mischa said:
> ...


Having no formal hunting training, don't take this on board if you are intending getting into it, it's just a post to share similiar practices. 

I utilise my farming commands in much the same manner. So "Push" is move forward, "Come behind" is literally that, "Over Here" with an arm extended means change direction in the way I am pointing. "Hold" is literally hold the point till I get there and determine the next course of action. If it's something I want them to flush, then it's "Get it". And Retrieve is "Get A Bird". The only additions I have used are the "Find It" commands, as the farm dogs were usually taken to the sheep or cattle


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## Mischa (Feb 17, 2010)

Reading this thread is getting me very excited to get back out to some training this spring. I've been thinking about it for weeks...

We're going to be working on getting her 'Field Dog' title this fall. 
She'll have to be gun-broken to a shotgun, learn 'whoa' until released to fetch after the bird is shot, and retrieve to hand.

It won't be easy, but I'm confident that she'll do well. As long as we all continue to have fun doing it, we'll keep at it.

My buddy has a gun-shy flusher (Italian water dog) and keeps bugging me to get my dog out and help him find grouse since his dog can't...he's not going to be the one to introduce her to a shotgun!!! lol 
His hunting buddies have told him that there is no gun-breaking process. Either they got it or they don't!... 
I lost interest right there.
I put him in contact with our trainer and hopefully they can help. 

I'd love to take Mischa out hunting, but she's young and I'm in no rush, so we'll keep progressing with help from our awesome bird lady until I learn more and can pick who I want shooting a gun over my dog.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> We're going to be working on getting her 'Field Dog' title this fall.
> She'll have to be gun-broken to a shotgun, learn 'whoa' until released to fetch after the bird is shot, and retrieve to hand.


Lots and lots of birds. Lots and lots of hours training. Lots and lots of fun. We started Bailey at 9 months old. He is now 3 years and 6 months. Just now coming out of puppyhood in the last 6 months. Males are a bit slower than females.

We are not where I wanted us to be. I thought we would be further along. Some Vizslas I know were _Master Hunters _ by 2 years old. Some were _AKC Field Champions _ by 2 1/2 years old. These are the 0.5 percent of Vizslas.

But somewhere not to long ago I realized. "Who really cares but me what initals are before or after his name?" The enjoyment is the journey and not the destination. We'll get Bailey his Master Hunter before he dies. For now he LOVES to hunt and find me birds and we will continue to train a lot!

Good luck. It is really exciting.

RBD


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Mischa said:


> Reading this thread is getting me very excited to get back out to some training this spring. I've been thinking about it for weeks...
> 
> We're going to be working on getting her 'Field Dog' title this fall.
> She'll have to be gun-broken to a shotgun, learn 'whoa' until released to fetch after the bird is shot, and retrieve to hand.


Best of luck to Misha, going to be fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO_J_wxliyM
George Hickox looks exactly like my grandfather did, can't get over the resemblance. I also like the way he trains (except for the toe hitch but who am I to judge the effectiveness)

: My big hope is for Sam to Whoa reliably at a distance, if I get that I will be happy for a while.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

On gunshy, an old man told me once as a joke " I shoot my 10 gauge over the litter. The pup that comes to me is the one I take home. The rest of the litter ran off and must have been gunshy."

It only takes one day to make a dog gunshy. It can take months with a pro trainer to fix and there is no guarantee. Out of all the training you do with your dog intro to the Ecollar and gunfire are the easiest way to mess a dog up if done wrong.


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