# ecollar reaction :(



## nutmeg07 (Sep 14, 2013)

Ok, I need more advice on the ecollar issue. I ended up getting a dogtra collar for my dog. I read intensively about the use of them cause i really didnt want to make any mistakes. The day before yesterday I started on it and tried to find the dog's working level - where she can just feel it. In the collar the levels go from 0 to 127. I found her slightly react to the level 15. Then she wore the collar all day yesterday, but I didnt use it. Then today I went to use it for the first time, I was in a relaxed environment, she was on a long lead, no distractions. I pushed the button, called her, and released it as she turned around. I tried it a couple of times, but almost straight away she became so upset that I stopped using it. She put her tail between her legs, her whole body stiffened and her body position was so very worried. She wouldn't come to me, and this lasted for the whole afternoon. She just wouldn't snap out of it, although I tried to play with her, to take her for a walk, she wasn't interested. I left her alone and eventually she got over it. Later on that day I tried the collar again, this time on the level 8. Before this my partner and I played recall game with her, where one of us calls her, she gets a treat and then the other one calls her etc. She loved it, and then I used the collar and the whole dog just shut down in the same way as previously. I stopped using it straight away. 
Now, I can already work out a few issues here myself. 1) If she could feel the level 8, then maybe initially I had the collar set on too high(15) and it really scared her (?) 2) I think now I have got myself n a situation where I havent been able to teach the dog even the beginnings of "how to turn the collar off by her own actions", so now she has just experienced it and cant make sense of it (but should of I kept going?) 3) I think she might associate the whole thing with me, as she tries real hard to cuddle up to me, as if shes done something really bad. 4) also the second time we tried the collar, we did it after just playing recall games with her, and maybe it was really fun with her then, and suddenly the collar came in and she reacted to it as not understanding where to go from there. 
Am I totally lost here? I just really wasnt expecting that, and really wanted to make this work. How can I get her back? she is fine now, but how can I introduce the whole thing to her again in a better light? Should i just keep on going and let her work out how to turn the collar off herself? Any ideas?


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## oliveJosh12 (Sep 10, 2012)

why are you using one in the first place?


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## emilycn (Jul 30, 2013)

oliveJosh12 said:


> why are you using one in the first place?


This sounds a bit hostile. Could you elaborate?


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

It wasn't clear in your description, but when you called her and used the e-collar, did you use the check chord to real her in to your side. Using the check chord is VERY important... If you just used the recall command and then used stim, and expected the dog to know what to do with this new sensation without providing guidance through the check, than that is likely where you fell down...

For my e-collar intro, I called her, used the stim until she was by my side, but was concurrently pulling her in with the check chord (or was at least prepared too), so she would learn that coming to your side is how the stimulation gets turned off. 

With respect to intensity, I want the dog to consider the stim to be on par to how I feel with mosquito's flying around my head. They don't hurt, but are **** annoying, and if i go "here" they will go away. And then if I refuse to go "here", then one or two of the mosquito's may start biting.....(i.e. intensity gets turned up).

It sounds like in your case, you called her and put the stim on, but she didn't know what to do with it or how to react to it. Thus the need for the check chord to remind her what she is supposed to do when you call her. You want to use the lowest intensity possible to get the reaction you want.

Other thoughts/questions...

1. be careful she doesn't become collar wise, and I may consider letting her cool off for a while before you try again. 

2. Is she collar conditioned? meaning has she worn the collar for a week or so before you even turned it on?

3. How old is the dog?

4. Make sure the collar is on snug and the same tightness each time. Inconsistent contact will drastically effect how much stim she feels. 

Hope that helps,

Nate


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

The first two weeks I never turn the collar on.
I put it on the dog every time we go for a run.
Only after the dog has started to associate the collar as a good thing, do I start the training with it.

My advice would be to put the collar up for a couple of weeks.
After she is back to herself, start running her with it off.
Once she starts jumping for joy when you bring the collar out, its time to start the training again. 

Looks like you went wrong by not giving her time to look at the collar as a good thing.
2nd


> I pushed the button, called her, and released it as she turned around


So the correction came out of nowhere to her.
You need to go back and do more research on ecollar training.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

SuperV and TexasRed give great advice. Just one more question - did you start at level 0 and go up one level at a time until you saw a subtle reaction? Or did you start at 15 and then try 8?


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

dextersmom said:


> SuperV and TexasRed give great advice. Just one more question - did you start at level 0 and go up one level at a time until you saw a subtle reaction? Or did you start at 15 and then try 8?


That subtle reaction should be a slight twitch of the ears, tilt of the head, twitch of neck muscle....very very very subtle...all you want to see is an acknowledgement by the dog.

Nate


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## RugersParents (Jul 16, 2013)

Texas Red put it right on the money. Well said.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

E-collar - a correction for a command they KNOW - you never stimulate the pup then give a command - that's how I read your post - also it's a quick nick - I read you held the stim button down - E-collar manufactures all tend to sell it as a training tool - as said above I look at it as CORRECTION for a WELL trained PUP - if your pup is under a year old - put it away till it has learned it's commands - whoa and here are the only commands I correct on - get these right - other commands are easy !!!!


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## nutmeg07 (Sep 14, 2013)

I try and answer some of these questions raised here. 
1)She wore one for nearly a week before I did anything with it, but maybe that wasn't enough. She doesn't react to the collar being on her now, or doens't mind me putting it on or anything, I dont know if she associates all this with wearing the collar itself, doesn't seem like it. 
2) She is nearly a year old.
3) I was using it for recall. She knows recall command and is fairly good on it. I did use the check cord, but maybe I should of reinforced that more.
4)I didnt go straight to level 15 and then 8, I progressed from 0 up and stopped where i saw her slightly look around
5) Texasred you said "So the correction came out of nowhere to her." I dont understand this, What I've been taught you nick them just before you call them, then as they make the choice of turning towards you stop nicking, and praise.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

> What I've been taught you nick them just before you call them, then as they make the choice of turning towards you stop nicking, and praise.


Why would anyone tell you to nick the dog before its been given any command.
With mine, they get a tug on the lead, and the same time a nick from the ecollar. It just a method of transferring the pressure from their flat collar, to their ecollar. They have to be able to associated it, in the same way they would their regular collar. Just as the tug stops when they comply, so does the ecollar pressure. They have to learn why the pressure starts, and what behavior turns it off.

Because of her reaction on the first day, I would go very slow with her.
Vizslas have a memory like a elephant.
They never forget when things go badly, and it takes tons of work to get them past it.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Ignore the bad, praise the good. Repetition and consistency are my ecollars! Throw the McDonald's collar in the bin. You've shut your dog down once with it already. Trust is important in a Vizsla.


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## SuperV (Oct 18, 2011)

nutmeg07 said:


> 5) Texasred you said "So the correction came out of nowhere to her." I dont understand this, What I've been taught you nick them just before you call them, then as they make the choice of turning towards you stop nicking, and praise.


***Not intending to speak on behalf of Texasred***

...so i was about to type that you should offer the command, then low stim, but evidently there are mixed opinions from the pro's on the matter......but for what its worth, i did the command followed by stim and used the check chord to remind the dog of what HERE meant and that I could ensure success...

here is an excerpt from Tritronics:

_Methods to use for stimulation – One way to teach a dog to obey new commands is with the use of continuous stimulation. Pick the correct intensity level for your dog as described in the Tri-Tronic’s manual.* Press the low button or set the intensity on low just before you give the command (not afterwards) and release the button the moment the dog complies.* He will learn to “turn the collar off” by obeying the command. Remember, in the beginning the dog may need the guidance of a leash to show him what behavior will shut off the stimulation. You should start with the low-level button and go up to medium if the dog will not respond. You should reserve the high stimulation for rare circumstances when the dog is very distracted
If the dog is not responding to the low at all, you will need to go up one level. Using sit as an example, you would push the low-level button and give the sit command. Guide the dog into a sit using your leash and release the button when the dog is sitting. Very soon, you will no longer need to guide the dog with the leash.
During the first few lessons, you should press the button before each command. After several training sessions on a command, you should see the dog trying to obey quickly. When you see this reaction, the dog is ready for you to phase out using continuous stimulation. Now you can give the command first and if the dog does not comply, say “No, sit” and push low momentary. If the dog appears confused, go back to using continuous stimulation and show him what you want him to do._

A slightly different approach from Dogtra: http://www.dogtra.com/download/pat_nolan/patnolan_training.htm

and sport dog has a yet another approach:

_ Then 
command “Here,” deliver a nick on the correct level – 
paying close attention to the dog’s reaction – and then 
immediately command “Here” again. Reward your dog 
with a stroke on the shoulder and verbal praise. Repeat 
“Here”-Nick-“Here” three to five times on the first day 
at various places in the work area while making sure 
that no two nicks occur at the same spot. Your dog 
will receive at least three nicks, but no more than five, 
during the first couple of sessions._

I suppose the summation of it is that there are more than one way to skin the cat, but the common denominator is you try your best to make sure you dog succeeds.

Nate


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Your going to find different methods, due to the fact there are different breeds, and different temperaments even within a breed.
Someone training a fire breathing Lab, will have a totally different approach than one training a softer dog of any breed. The Tritronics method appears to be more for retrievers, than bird dogs.

I know this can be confusing for someone that has never ecollar trained a dog before, or ecollar trained a different breed, and tries and use the same method.


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## nutmeg07 (Sep 14, 2013)

Right, I'm quite confused now. Thank you for pointing out that there are actually reasons for me to feel confused, too, its not just me going mad... As its been said that you just have to find the method that works best for your dog, well, in this case I think trial and error is not a good option, as I really dont want to do any more damage to my dog, and I cant quite work out what the gentlest way to do this is, which method is the best for sensitive dogs. How are you meant to know?


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Nut - the 1 thing you have 2 remember - from 8wks 2 over 16yrs old - your dog will always V a PUPPY - they were bred 2 V tough as nails - but their FEELINGS are so easily hurt !!!!! step back - take a BIG breath & think how YOU would like 2 V treated - if you get angry - put the pup on lead with lots of praise - then try again the next day - all V's learn at a different rate - in my opinion you made some major mistakes - put the E on and leave the trans mitter at home 4 a few months - check cord - whoa board whistle hand & voice till the pup understands these 2 basic commands - then you will find a correction is used most of the time when the pup is distracted !!!!!!


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## Tika V (Jan 30, 2013)

Teach the pup to recall using the check cord only first. To do this give the here comand and if she does not react give short continuous nagging type tugs ( not hard) on the CC saying nothing until you either reel her in with the tugs or she gives in and complies to the tugging (correction) and comes to you. Once she learns this very well and is recalling on command or only needing the odd tug on the CC to remind her of what she needs to be doing you can then start to over lay the e collar to mean the same thing as the CC tugs. You would do this by giving the command for "here" while simultaneously giving her a tug on the CC (which she would know what that means) and a low level nic with the e collar at the exact same time. Doing this is now teaching her that the feeling of the CC tug and the feeling of the e collar mean the exact same thing. 
First off though... I would highly recommend putting the ecollar on her (turned off) and taking her to her favorite off leash run spots. As others metioned, make the collar mean fun times first. Only then go back to the begining and start fresh with the steps I mentioned above. Thats how i would tackle the issue..


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## lilyloo (Jun 20, 2012)

We use(d) an e-collar for our Ruby for basic training. We used it to teach her to heel, etc. but we were trained by an experienced dog training program. I agree with what everyone else has said. I just wanted to add something that our trainer told us. The stimulation on the collar is supposed to be (in most situations) a tap on the shoulder. It's to get their attention and make your commands more effective. I've found that we really need to give the command and stimulation on the collar at the exact same time. Otherwise, the dog gets confused and doesn't associate the two. 

I also feel that for the most part the e-collar shouldn't be used on commands that a dog isn't already familiar with. It's okay to reinforce the commands with the collar but I wouldn't use it on something brand new.


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## FrancoD13 (Aug 9, 2012)

When we started the eCollar we spent the first day in a very relaxed environment on the lowest setting. I stood right near him and every time I buzzed him I gave him a treat. did this on and off for the day. This way he would associate the buzzing with a treat. 

Then we went outside with the long line. Every time I buzzed him, I pulled the cord to have him come back and a treat. 

No lie, in 10 minutes he started associating the buzz with a treat and came running.


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## nutmeg07 (Sep 14, 2013)

I would just like to thank people who posted helpful advice on ecollars. I'm happy to say that we have now been using the collar successfully, and my V (and I!) loves it. She comes running once called, and I really dont have to use the collar, its just on her, in case there's a major distraction somewhere  Im so excited about all the freedom this opens up for us, and it seems to have done good for our relationship as well. I'm still not entirely sure what went wrong at the start, I think I didn't use enough check cord, and had the collar set on a little too high (?).
Off to the beach now


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

Good job! I think it also depends on the dog. We went through a phase when Miles was a little afraid of the collar and we set it on level 1... vs. Chase who is much more hard headed and stubborn he needed a higher setting and was never afraid.


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## redd (May 25, 2014)

I wonder if your V is too soft for the e-collar. I read a horrendous post from a member about his V going mental after getting a shock, he became aggressive and bit his owner badly a few times. Not sure of all the circumstances and what eventually happened, but it scared me, because we also intended to use a remote trainer. 

Our Vizsla is a bull headed, confident, sassy little fellow. Not at all soft or tender, and not afraid of anything. We used the collar today for the first time while on a hike and had a great response. We gave a command. If he ignored he got a tone, and if he continued to ignore got a correction. He came bee-lining back to us and got treats. He was only corrected 3 times before he started to understand. He did great. He knows the "heel" command but doesn't like it and usually ignores it off leash--- by the end of our hike, he literally walked between us, positive body language, off leash, thru a parking lot with a dog and several mountain bikers getting ready for a ride. He got LOTS of praise and treats. 

But again, the personality of the dog should probably drive your training techniques. I would stick with a long lead and not let her off a leash until she could recall reliably, for her safety and yours! 

My 0.2.


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## hobbsy1010 (Jun 4, 2011)

But again, the personality of the dog should probably drive your training techniques. I would stick with a long lead and not let her off a leash until she could recall reliably, for her safety and yours! 

Sounds about Right!!!


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

AKC takes it's stand on e-collars. Just got an e-mail note this evening from the AKC. It seems they went on The TV show, Fox and Friends last Saturday, and must have gotten some tough reactions to their support of electronic collars.

Next week Bailey and I head into the pheasant fields for the first time this year. He will be wearing his e-collar as he always does in our hunts. He gets excited when he sees it. He knows birds are coming.

Used correctly they are a perfect communication tool. Vizslas are faster learners than humans.

Happy trails,
RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

RBD
Here is the link to Fox's fluff piece.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/3782913580001/humane-to-use-shock-collars-for-dog-training/#sp=show-clips

The thread on HVF
http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,27513.msg196753.html#msg196753

AKC should realize they are alienating their Hunt test, Field Trial members.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

The AKC letter:


"Dear Rodney Michaelson,

On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study.

The AKC has never called for a ban on e-collars. The AKC supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. Our thousands of field trial, performance and companion participants are the experts, those with the training experience and knowledge to obtain AKC titles on their dogs. It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field. In fact, listed under the heading “Training Collars,” our position in support of e-collars as it pertains to AKC events, dog clubs and professional trainers has not wavered since it was adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.

When we accept national media opportunities, we see them as a chance to talk to the nearly 57 million dog-owning households across the country who may not know about AKC’s resources and offerings. For better or worse, the vast majority of those owners will face struggles at the most basic level of training, not the complexities of handling performance-level dogs in the field or advanced companion work. When we appeared on Fox & Friends, it was our intention to speak to those novice owners who are seeking the best methods to create well-trained pets. Those methods do not include misuse or overuse of e-collars at the hands of amateur owners, an opinion with which I’m sure any dog expert can agree. AKC maintains its encouragement of positive reinforcement techniques for those beginner owners.

We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment.

Sincerely,
James Crowley, Executive Secretary
American Kennel Club"


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

redbirddog said:


> The AKC letter:
> " ... It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs ...


That sure didn't come across in the TV interview. I wonder if their response letter is backpedaling.

Bob


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

> We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment.


Sounds like they shot themselves in the foot with a 12 gauge in the interview. * 57 million dog owners*. Of that huge number, what percentage do you think could use a e-collar correctly? 

My guess is 10% at best.

Happy trails and trials,
RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

What they did in that interview is give animal activist more members. How many people do you think have never laid eyes on a ecollar, but now have strong feelings about them. How many of those people would vote to ban them?

AKC needs to do more than just send out emails to their members after that segment.

If anyone would like to read the paper that inspired the Fox piece.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0102722


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Looks like AKCs facebook page is blowing up with upset people. Its hard to see who is madder.
The people who are upset over the Fox segment, or the ones that received the email, and are against ecollars.

Looks like they opened a can of worms, that they can't get the lid back on.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Looks like the AKC is acting like our Presidents staff - SPENDING TIME DOING DAMAGE CONTROL ! - the real truth is they just added 2 the list of people that see PIKE in his E-collar & think I'm a MONSTER !!!!!!!!


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

My dog. He loves me unconditionally and I wouldn't hurt him for anything. And I don't.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Thank you Rod
That made me laugh, and I'm sure I will get some future use out of it.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

TR - did read the study - put PIKE & me 2 sleep several times - the truth is - a study like this is flawed from the beginning - too many variables - age - breed - level of handling of owner - was the pup conditioned for several weeks just wearing the collar - who payed for it - this list is endless !!!!!!!! - a good example - a choke or pinch collar can only be put on 2 ways - one is right - one is wrong !!!!!! the majority of owners never read the instructions because it has to be so easy !!!!!!!!!


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