# Play escalates to fighting in arousing situations



## jean (Feb 17, 2015)

There is a neighborhood dog play group that meets weekly. We stopped going once he was about 6 months, as it was crazy-time for him and we didn't think he was learning anything good - he didn't listen well, and he sometimes got over-arroused and would begin to escalate into inappropriate play (then we'd leave). The other dogs were well socialized generally, but few would correct him if he was out of line, and none could match his energy. We did hikes with similarly matched dogs instead.

Thinking he had matured and would enjoy play time, we tried again recently. He went after a 3 year old mixed-breed male of about ~30 pounds. My dog is about 17 months and 55 lbs (intact male). There was no blood - mostly just noise - but the other dog was totally innocent, whimpering as my dog was growling/attacking. I separated them and took him home. We'll keep avoiding that playgroup - it obviously isn't helpful and we have other options. (And ugh, neighborhood drama!) There wasn't really a warning, like raised hackles, it was playing, chasing, then it was fighting. There was a third dog that they both were trying to play with, so jealousy could be in the mix. 

This is not a completely isolated incident, albeit the worst and I think the only time the other dog was an adult. His play has escalated in a similar way in other situations, especially with specific dogs that don't help him "take a break" from play escalation. This has been an issue since puppy classes/socials. We always separate the dogs, then remove him from the situation by steering him to hang with older dogs or keeping him on leash to control his energy if it is all puppies in class. (Letting them "work it out" is really something the owner of the attack-ee would have to offer, and they understandably haven't. I'm not sure it is the answer in this case. He only has done with dogs who don't push back.) 

He is generally submissive and friendly to other dogs - but it seems his play \ can turn into a fight if he's highly aroused.

We consulted the breeder, who said it sounds like typical adolescent behavior, and to continue with socialization & training. This is our general plan. We already had been doing a lot of training to focus on recall, heeling, and attention to us in distractions - both with a trainer and group classes - in the last few months. (Improving, but still lots of room.) We also limit the super high arousal situations (i.e. lots of dogs in one place) to ones we know how to control.

I want to hear from the V group here for any insight. Can we expect this to improve as he matures, assuming we continue to socialize him with dogs he does play well with, and continue to train him to listen under distraction? Did any of your dogs do this?


----------



## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/09/horny-male-vizsla.html

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2010/05/poor-city-dogs.html

Oh how I remember the teenage years with Bailey. I had to TRAIN and work his MIND and BODY a lot at this time. Make it "boot camp" time for him a with a purpose and a way to direct his energy. We used hunting and field trials. He was a natural at both but hundreds of hours of training were also involved.

Read my blog posts (redbirddog.blogspot.com) from 2009 to 2011 about how we transcended that period. 

Some one asked me when my Vizlsas (8 and 9 years old) started to mellow. I said they are still about 90% but the calming down started around 4. Haven't been in a dog park with my dogs in 3 years. Not worth it. 
Suggestion. When on leash, do not stop and chat with other dog owners whose dogs are either on leash or off. 1 minute meet and greet and catch up later. It puts the dogs in an uncomfortable state as they have to try and figure out this new "pack" instantly. Young males (intact or clipped) are the first to feel they have to figure where they stand. 

Best of luck.
RBD


----------



## jean (Feb 17, 2015)

Thanks for the response and links - I've been to your blog, but reading about adolescence was helpful. I think I should assume he may never be a great match for more busy dog areas with a variety of unknown dogs. The main reason we wanted a Vizsla was for the trails/hiking, so this is only a minor inconvenience on the social side. 

For now, we'll keep him tightly reigned in with a lot of training and lots of exercise. After a year of 100% positive only training, we hired a trainer ~2 months ago to help us learn to us an e-collar to get his recall where it needed to be for him to be off leach on the local trail. In addition to lots of home training exercises, we took a (positive only) advanced obedience class at the local humane society that was really good. It's amazing the amount of focus he has - when he want to have it! We're doing some scent training next month. 

So glad Bailey has been recovering so well!


----------



## jean (Feb 17, 2015)

We've had no more troubling incidents, but he seems to still growl at some (not all) puppies / young dogs he meets.

There is a 9 month old lab in the neighborhood who he has walked by a few times and been unfriendly and he quietly growled each time. The lab was not doing anything or in his face, they were at a distance. We've met a few young dogs on the trail that he's growled at. Maybe it is nothing to worry about and I'm imposing my human "be nice to everyone!" standards on him. I miss my friendly outgoing pup! 

We go on off leash group Vizsla walks, and he does pretty well there. He's a little bossy to a ~9 month old, but nothing we can't control. He ignored the very young one that showed up recently. He's submissive to the older dogs.

Will he outgrow this phase, or should I assume this intolerance/rudeness towards random young dogs is here to stay? Is there any sepcific training I can do, knowing that I don't have easy access to a puppy to work on this with? There are local classes that work with reactive dogs, but he doesn't lunge and bark - he just sometimes growls a little. Would these be appropriate for him, or not a good use of time/$?

Note we're doing other obedience and scent training, it just doesn't target this issue.


----------



## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

As long as the reactive classes don't escalate the problem, it's worth a try. Maybe ask to go to one without him, and see if it might be a fit. 
I don't think anyone can tell you if it's a phase. You can only work on a problem, with hopes to find a solution.


----------



## Pecan_and_BB (Jun 15, 2015)

I've been working with some trainers (my purpose is primarily hunt training) that actually have a designated (mostly experimental ) class which has exercises that attempt to increase and control the levels of serotonin in dogs. I've participated in some of the classes and I'm not convinced that you can "train" a dog to release or increase serotonin levels on their own, but at the very least, it's helped me with specific calming techniques with Pecan when she gets near threshold.

You might want to investigate the use of certain proteins (like delicious turkey) that contain higher levels of tryptophan and tyrosine which has been linked to a higher release of serotonin. It would be worth talking to your local trainers, vets and experts to see what they have to say on the subject.


----------



## Vizsla_Luka (Sep 8, 2015)

Hi Jean,

Your situation sounds almost exactly like ours. Luka is now 16 months old and there are now three dogs in the neighbourhood (1 bitch, 2 males, all about the same age or slightly younger than him) that he has decided he hates and when ever he sees them he will growl and pin them to the ground in a really aggressive manner. With other dogs, if they are older or more dominant he is very submissive, but otherwise when he plays his growling and rough play has been markedly worse over the last few weeks. For this reason he hasn't had a good play with a dog in a while because no one wants to play with him or I have to leash him!

We, like yourself and working really hard on recall, heel, distration training and attending doggy obedience class (positive reinforcement) regularly.

I can't offer any advice, but I empathise wholeheartedly!!

I'm almost certain it's his hormones reaching havoc, and fairly confident this phase will pass, but for your info he is being chemically castrated for 6 months next week and we will see if we see less craziness from him over the next few months.


----------



## jean (Feb 17, 2015)

Definitely post and let me know how that goes! 

We are monitoring and considering neutering in the long run - but we also know some of this may be a lack of confidence, and then neutering won't help. But maybe it truly is hormones, in which it will help... My random googling indicates adolescence "should have" peaked earlier, but I think Vizslas have a long puppyhood and later adolescence.

He's been better in the last month or so, but it is hard to know if that is lack of situations that challenged him, actual progress, or even the fact that we switched his food and his tummy is feeling better. (He was having somewhat chronic diarrhea for a bit and we solved it by chicken+rice for a week followed by new food, vet's advice.)


----------



## whiskey_pup (May 10, 2016)

We've been struggling with this with our 6 month old V. He's always played a bit rougher with dogs but the last two weeks its escalated and its only towards puppies. There doesn't seem to be any biting but the growling, lunging, and pining them is happening. We go to a dog meet-up daily (and have been since he was 12 weeks old) and it used to only happen while they were playing but now its as soon as he sees two of the dogs he starts growling and going for them. 

We've recently joined a doggy day care and today when we went to pick him up I went to pet another puppy and he freaked out and went after the dog. Again no one got hurt but the other dog was being submissive and crying and he only stopped cause we separated them. She has suggested that he is being protective/territorial over me and that may be what is happening at the park. 

We did puppy classes and we're in the middle of another class and he is doing great with training but when these situations happen there is no distracting him. 

We've briefly discussed neutering but we really would like to wait until at least 18 months. 

Sorry I have no advice but it is reassuring to me to hear that my dogs isn't the only one going through this.


----------



## Anida (Jun 10, 2016)

whiskey_pup said:


> She has suggested that he is being protective/territorial over me and that may be what is happening at the park.


One of my beagles does this. She is terrifying.. 13" tall and 22lbs  What helps when she is in social situations with other dogs is for me to walk away from her when another dog approaches. She still thinks about growling and lunging but she either stops and sniffs the other dog or just decides to follow me. I'm not sure why she feels the need to protect my space but we thought forever it was just because she was nervous but we got some outside help and that seems to be what it is.

Not sure if that will help in your situation but it's what has been working for us.


----------

