# training the retrieve; troubleshooting



## Capa (May 19, 2013)

I am working on training my Vizsla to pick up items on command. I have trained other dogs in the past, but have run into some roadblocks. I was wondering if someone might be able to help me troubleshoot the process with my girl? 

Thanks so much, love this forum.


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## ZekeSnow (Jul 4, 2013)

This is what I used!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0076OF77Y/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?qid=1384096978&sr=8-4&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

If your looking to force fetch the dog, I like Evan Grahams Smart Fetch. If your looking for a alternative you could try clicker training the retrieve.


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## Ksana (Mar 30, 2013)

This is another very interesting topic. I also would like to know how many people were successful in training the retrieve by using various techniques such as positive reinforcement such as clicker training (A) vs. force fetching (B) vs. e-collar (C)? We are using A-method and wondering whether anyone else was successful with this method?


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

_(A) vs. force fetching (B) vs. e-collar_

I don't understand what your asking between the two. You can not use a ecollar to reinforce a command that has not been taught. You would have had to Force Fetched the dog, before you could use the ecollar to enforce it.


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

This is a sticking point for me, to FF or just continue to develop the retrieve naturally. I was fortunate to get a pup with a lot of natural retrieve in him. BUT there are still problems that need to be worked through. Examples are when I drop a bird stone cold in a open space, the dog marks the bird & runs to it, then he wants to peck at it and lick it. Now if I wing a bird and it flys a ways or cripples into the cover. The dog will hunt dead and make a full retrieve. He loves cripples. Another problem we recently had was a bird shot over water. He swam out grabbed the bird then swam to the other side of the River with it. Started pecking and licking the dead bird. I was able to call him back but he left the bird on the opposite river bank. That was a shame, so I am contemplating my next move in the fetch training. I hate to take his natural drive to please and retrieve. Replaced with something artificial that may lack enthusiasm for the game. He is only 2.5years old with season two currently in progress. I will asses him with the trainer in February.


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## ZekeSnow (Jul 4, 2013)

I've force fetched(FF) my V... All you are doing with the FF is turning fetching into a literal command... It doesn't take away their drive! You just teach them that when you tell them fetch, that they need to pick the bird up and hold it in his mouth until you tell him to drop it! It only guarantees a retrieve to hand every time! 

My opinion: Force Fetching is the way to go!


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## Capa (May 19, 2013)

I was asking for specific help as Scout's issues are somewhat unique to her in combination with one another. I did not get her until she was 2 years old so she has developed a few unfavorable behaviors and does not have tremendously high natural drive.

I have free-shaped the retrieve in the past with other dogs with tremendous success. I have a Whippet who will retrieve anything, anywhere, on command. 

It is humbling to have a Vizsla whose retrieve pales in comparison to my Whippet's!


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

ZekeSnow said:


> I've force fetched(FF) my V... All you are doing with the FF is turning fetching into a literal command... It doesn't take away their drive! You just teach them that when you tell them fetch, that they need to pick the bird up and hold it in his mouth until you tell him to drop it! It only guarantees a retrieve to hand every time!
> 
> My opinion: Force Fetching is the way to go!


At what age and how much hunting exposer had your dog had? I am still on the fence about this, don't get me wrong I am not a Amish style trainer I'm just not sure how my dog will respond to the training pressure. Did you use the Ear pinch method? Sorry if I am hijacking this thread, I was hoping to engage in a informative debate on the subject.


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## ZekeSnow (Jul 4, 2013)

ZigZag: I think I started him around 9-10 months... It doesn't take a lot of pressure on the ear and it isn't really meant to hurt them, just enough to be uncompfortable... At least I didn't use much pressure... Especially with the temperament of vizsla's in general! I never applied too much pressure because V's tend to break easier than most breeds! I still use it to keep him in check and honestly we still have quite a bit to work on since Zeke is only 13 months old! He hasn't had much hunting exposure, however. This will be his first season!!! I have worked him on pen raised quail from point, to shot, to retrieve... And we have done water retrieves with frozen ducks since he will be a waterfowl dog as well! I know this isn't the real thing but it's as close as I have gotten with him! Hope this answers your question!

Capa: I truly think if you went through the FF method with her, it will alleviate those issues! Zeke doesn't have a very high prey drive either! Originally, he would run out to the dummy, touch his nose to it and come back! Not every time but he would do it after a few retrieves... Then with live birds, he would just lick them when he got them... When he would bring them back he would never really pick them up, but drag them back to me by the wing. I FFed him and now he fetches everything, heels, and waits for me to tell him to drop... I can even hold on to the dummy/bird and tug but he won't let go until I give the "drop" command... I know you have specific problems with Scout but I hope this helps in some way!!


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## Capa (May 19, 2013)

I ordered the video, just to check it out, though I much prefer the clicker.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I would keep with the clicker training because you have had success with it in the past. Then you can fall back to FF if it doesn't work out.
With FF the amount of pressure applied is different with each dog. One thing to keep in mind is you might have to take a step back. The dog may just not get it, and more pressure maybe a mistake. If the dog is having problems with say step three. then back up to step two.


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## Ksana (Mar 30, 2013)

We have been successful with the clicker training so far in preparation for the conformation show, natural ability hunting evaluation test, and competitive obedience, so will try to use the clicker for the retrieve troubleshooting. We recently went chukar hunting and after two hours of extensive search, our puppy had found one. The chukar was shot over the lake, landed into the lake, but was able to get out of the water (who knew a chukar could swim???), so the pup tracked him down, and pointed at the crippled bird. As it took for us forever to get around the lake, our puppy collected the flying wings into a nice bundle, brought still alive bird to us, but did not deliver to hand. He then decided he wanted to carry the bird back himself, to show off to other dogs. However, he did deliver a dead pheasant back to us in the past. Any suggestions/ ideas on what reinforcement to use for a fare trade, to support the clicker? Food is not good enough. What could be better than a full mouth of bird feathers?


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

On & Off Point - 4 the new puppy owner - 1 or 2 toys - they pick it up - come 2 U - great praise - the reward is U being happy - Like Tex said - E-collar R just a reinforcement from a distance - the pup has 2 know & understand the commands B4 using it - force fetch works - but have 2 V careful with a V !!!!!


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Nothing wrong with letting them carry the prize (bird) around when first learning. You need to pet and praise them when they have it in there mouth. If you snatch it from them they don't want to bring it to you, or start dropping it in anticipation of the snatch. 



> What could be better than a full mouth of bird feathers?


Don't know anything to compete with that.
When training I would use a bumper at first. Then a bumper with a wing attached to it. Next use a partly frozen bird to up the game.


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

PIKE @ 5yrs always mouth's the first bird - he has done this since a pup - has always come 2 hand - the first bird is always been beaten up - this is what he does & after the first year of hard work - this is what he is - some things you let your pup do - no harm - NO foul !!!!!! looking 4 the perfect breed - skip the 'V'


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## Capa (May 19, 2013)

Ksana said:


> Any suggestions/ ideas on what reinforcement to use for a fare trade, to support the clicker? Food is not good enough. What could be better than a full mouth of bird feathers?


Another bird?


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