# Advice sought re: kibble for 10.5 week old "Mountie"



## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

Hi, all! Greetings from Virginia. Just now posted an introduction (with pics) over on the "Introductions" thread. In a nutshell, we are proud parents to a wonderful little V male, "Mountie," who is a fantastic and sharp guy even in his infancy of 10.5 weeks old!

This post marks our first official question, and we thank you in advance for your advice and opinions.

Mountie came to us vis-a-vis an incredible breeder (Ron & Denise of Chenoweth/Countryside Kennels -- with thanks on the side to Mark Sullivan of Against the Wind for his guidance). Mountie thus far has proven to be all that we had hoped for!

So, question for you... *Which of the kibbles listed below would you recommend?*

I tend to be a _bit_ over-analytical (dear wife would call it "OCD" :), and have researched in-depth (via manufacturer websites and dogfoodadvisor) puppy-appropriate kibble, in hopes of transitioning Mountie _ASAP_ from his initial staple of Purina Puppy Chow (which we consider to be a lower-quality feed) to a better kibble. Narrowed it down to these:

1. *Taste of the Wild High Prairie (Roasted Venison & Bison) Puppy Formula* (by TOTW, contract-manufactured by Diamond; USA) (~$52 / 30lb = $1.72/lb). Pros: Good "bang for buck," well-rounded GF kibble. Cons: Lower DHA, manufactured by Diamond (which has had an inexcusable number of recalls). 

2. ACANA Puppy & Junior (by Champion Petfoods; Canada) (**not available in the USA**) (ergo, alternatives: *ACANA Wild Prairie Grain Free* (~$67 / 28.6lb = $2.34/lb); *ACANA Grasslands Grain Free* or *ACANA Pacifica Grain Free* (~$80 / 28.6lb = $2.80/lb)). Pros: Appears to offer great alternative to uber-rich Orijen (albeit, adult formulas only). Cons: Puppy formula not available in USA, uncertainty re: appropriate calcium levels of these "all stage" formulas, lacking in Yucca extract (which does wonders to curtail feces odor).

3. *Orijen Puppy* (by Champion Petfoods; Canada) (~$75 / 28.6lb = $2.62/lb). Pros: A+ quality kibble. Cons: Many testimonials of young puppies getting diarrhea from rich formula, lacking in Yucca extract (which does wonders to curtail feces odor). 

4. *Earthborn Holistic Puppy Vantage* (by Midwestern Pet Foods; USA) (~$47 / 28lb = $1.68/lb). Pros: Good "bang for buck," well-rounded kibble, made by Midwestern Pets (nearly as reputable as Champion). Cons: Not grain-free, limited first-hand reviews available, difficult to find. 

5. *GO! FIT + FREE Grain Free (Chicken, Turkey & Trout) Puppy* (by Petcurean; Canada) (~$65 / 25lb = $2.60/lb). Pros: Excellent Canadian kibble (appears on par with Orijin and Acana) by Petcurean (nearly as reputable as Champion). Cons: Pricey, given limited first-hand reviews available. 

6. *Annamaet Manitok* or *Aqualuk* (by Annamaet Petfoods; USA) (~$84 / 30lb = $2.80/lb). Pros: Locally available (and Mountie likes the taste), well-rounded GF adult kibble. Cons: Uber-pricey, given limited first-hand reviews available, no puppy formulation, uncertainty re: appropriate calcium levels of these "all stage" formulas.

We would be indebted for as many opinions as possible re: which of the above you all would recommend transitioning Mountie to.

Thanks so much!!!

Corey & Michelle
Powhatan, Virginia


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

We feed taste of the wild and rotate between the two puppy flavors. 

Miles enjoys it and we think it's a good price for the quality of food. He is free fed (just mentioning, not meaning to start a debate!) and he eats about 3-6 cups a day depending on his activity. 

We supplement with veggies, various meats and fish, eggs, and raw food.


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## SteelCityDozer (Aug 25, 2011)

Taste of the wild is probably the best value and a lot of people on here use it. Dozer didn't like it but he's an anomaly in more ways than one. He's now on Rx food. We feed Acana to Penny and she likes it an it works well for her. I'd caution Orijen for a young pup as it is very high protein. Acana is made by the same company but protein levels are lower. Whatever you buy just try to make sure it's manufactured in the US or Canada, NOT CHINA. No food or treats from China.


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## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

Thanks, Milesmom! I really like TOTW. Quite a few Vs here appear to love it. Truth be known, it was my initial choice prior to stepping into the overload of dog food research! I do wish TOTW would contract with a company other than Diamond; however the label remains well-loved by the market. If we go this route, we might supplement with a high-DHA treat stock. Sounds as though you're happy! Thanks!!!!!!


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## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

SteelCityDozer said:


> Taste of the wild is probably the best value and a lot of people on here use it. Dozer didn't like it but he's an anomaly in more ways than one. He's now on Rx food. We feed Acana to Penny and she likes it an it works well for her. I'd caution Orijen for a young pup as it is very high protein. Acana is made by the same company but protein levels are lower. Whatever you buy just try to make sure it's manufactured in the US or Canada, NOT CHINA. No food or treats from China.


Thanks! I agree wholeheartedly re: your opinion on China. As someone who owns a pet-related company, I'm APPALLED by the misinformation and profit-driven callousness in many sectors of the pet industry. Made in USA, CANADA or NEW ZEALAND is my personal rule of thumb. For example, we pay several times what many companies pay for elk antlers... If most folks actually knew the condition of the chews they purchase in the box stores PRIOR to bleaching, etc., several mainstream brands would no longer exist. Unfortunately, much of the same holds true w/r/t pet food (and, heck, even human food!!!).


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Wise choice to change the kibble.... but prepare yourself for a runny stool ride until things settle. Not pretty and risk of slight dehydration and lower than expected nutrient absorption. 

We feed ORIJEN regional red (new formula), but we are old enough ;D

If you mess with with diet too much at this point, you will end up with runny stools. Rather difficult to stop. 
I would stay away from rice in kibble because the product may be supplied by Chinese Cos and comes in powder form (full of cellulose most likely)

Your best results will be by supplementing the kibble with some digestive enzyme powder. Rather expensive but well worth it. 
A little probiotic yoghurt weekly will also help. A little pumpkin purée also helps. 

I read somewhere they loose muscle mass if protein levels are below 33% and fat (supplies energy) below 20%. But that was on adult dogs, not puppies. 
In any case, most kibble is geared toward neutered/spayed animals, hence the lower nutritional values. 

Good luck 



Ps if you want you can cook the rice yourself, no sweat. And with a little boiled chicken, yum, dog will appreciate it.


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## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

BUMP in hopes of hearing additional opinions. Thank you!


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## GarysApollo (Nov 27, 2012)

Price has never mattered to me, I look at my boys as children and want them to be healthy little guys!

I would recomend Orijen large breed puppy, that is what we feed.
Acana is also very good made by champion pet foods same as Orijen just alittle less money. I feed me two cats TOTW and havnt had any problems with it.


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## GarysApollo (Nov 27, 2012)

Forgot to add, I have never smelled dog feces that does not stink no matter what is given to them.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

Can't give you any advice about the perfect kibble, because I've never settled on one myself! I've had several dogs over the course of my adult life, and always end up doing the same thing. I switch the kibble brand with some regularity, always choosing from a list of high quality kibble similar to yours. 

Doing this has some advantages: (1) Your dog is much less likely to develop a "touchy" stomach. Willie, for example, takes these changes right in stride, with no transition period at all. (2) Nutritional elements that might be missing in one brand can often be found in the next, and vice versa, and by making these switches, you're touching all the bases. (3) It makes meal time more interesting, and your dog gets to enjoy some variety in his life! 

I usually wet the kibble with a little warm water. Makes it more aromatic and aids digestion. Another thing I do, often but not always, is add supplemental protein in the form of "people food", but only in small amounts. I might add to Willie's dinner a little leftover chicken meat, shredded up, or a little piece of steak, cut up, or some fish, etc. Not more than 2-4 Tablespoons -- just a little. So that's just what I do, and that's why I can't point to just one perfect brand. ;D ;D ;D


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## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

Thanks, all! Your advice is sincerely appreciated!


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## lildancngurl (Jan 13, 2013)

The only issue I have with TOTW (besides my pup's stools being soft on it) is that it has citric acid as a preservative and according to a study in Purdue, it can lead to bloat. This is because citric acid causes the food to expand more in the belly, especially when moistened. Now, I don't know how true this is, but I would much rather be safe than sorry! (Yes--I make my puppy lie down for 30-45 minutes after eating and no raised feeding bowls!) 

We feed Ginny Orijen Puppy...A lot of people recommend the Large Breed formula, but I was nervous in doing so for various reasons. She's doing very well on it, hardest poops you ever saw, lol. A lot more energy (which could be a detriment for some, but we like it well enough.) and just generally more healthy appearance. Her coat is glamorous. We do feed her probiotics a few times a week, but that's just precautionary.


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## maplevizsla (Oct 26, 2012)

Loving Acana Grasslands, Titan is 8 mths old.


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## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

Thanks! One thing I've wondered about -- and inline with a couple of points mentioned above -- is: 

There seems to be a fair amount of ambiguity among manufacturers as well as Vizsla enthusiasts, generally, as to whether or not the Vizsla is considered a "Large Breed..." The primary concern being, with respect to some puppy formulations and all life stage kibble, exceeding appropriate levels of calcium and phosphorous (and thereby perhaps lending to unhealthy growth and exacerbation of any genetic predisposition re: dysplasia, etc.), I suppose.

Do you all believe that this is an issue with Vizslas -- in other words, how concerned should we be not to exceed calcium and phosphorus levels of, say, 1.7% and 1.5% respectively?


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## redrover (Mar 17, 2011)

Jasper has been on Acana Pacifica since he was about 6 months old. He likes it well enough, with the caveat that he's also not particularly food-motivated. He eats to stay alive and keep up his energy, not because he's particularly fond of the way kibble tastes. Only gets really, obsessively excited about treats (esp. liver) and raw bones.

Anyway, he's done really well on it. I think he grew at a good rate. He's on the small side, maybe, but I don't think abnormally so for his frame and given the weight of his parents. I don't think his poop smells bad. I mean, it smells like poop. As long as you're not keeping it in the house or letting it sit out in your yard for days, I don't think it would be a problem. 

Jasper has a relatively sensitive stomach. Switching foods is a production, even within the same brand (different protein sources, etc.). Went with this one because he's allergic to chicken, and with it being so dry in winter, wanted to make sure he got a little extra in the way of oils. The food alone helps, but if it's really dry out, I have to supplement. But his coat is nice (he's never been a soft-coated V, but it's not dry or anything) and his skin seems healthy. Only downside is a distinctively fishy smell coming from the food bowl! I got used to it, but my roommate acts like it's the worst thing in the world. Good thing she's not the one eating it!


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

I believe traditionally they are medium breed. Miles is 23 inches at shoulders but most breeders in our area breeding up at 25+ inches. People as me why miles is so small, and I reply that he's right between the standard 22-24 inches.


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

All pups and dogs have different dietary requirements, and what suits one does not always suit another.

Having had Gt Danes all my life I am very conscious of not feeding puppy kibble to large and giant breeds, but to feed a good quality balance diet - therefore when I got my Vizsla pup I applied the same principles. I tried several good brands that just gave him very runny stools and lots of them in a day. Orijen being the worst of them. I am not saying it is bad food just was too high in protein for my boy. As I was at the end of my tether and had enough bags of kibble to open a pet store I decided to call Champion foods and see what they said. They told me that for most large breed dogs(which is what they classify a Vizsla) they would recommend ACANA Pacifica a for life time food. This worked very well, and I sometimes changed it with Grasslands and Prarie with no ill effects.

All the feeds on your list are good quality kibbles and at the end of the day it comes down to what suits you and your dog. For me, having done a load of research into kibbles and their ingredients, for the past 11 months I have fed a complete RAW diet. My pup has grown really well, and I am happy that I am giving him the best diet I can. That is what it amounts to at the end of the day - you feed your dog the best food you can afford and a food that suits your life style.


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## maplevizsla (Oct 26, 2012)

While all poop stinks, a raw fed dog's poop is more pleasant if you caught a whiff than kibble turd. 

Same applies for breast-fed babies poop is sweeter smelling and far less offensive to the nose than formula-fed babies.


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## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

maplevizsla said:


> While all poop stinks, a raw fed dog's poop is more pleasant if you caught a whiff than kibble turd.


Yes, I suppose our emphasis on yucca extract for the prospective "pleasantification" of dog poop might be a bit of wishful thinking... The "lipstick on a pig" analogy comes to mind. ;D

And re: kibble poo, I had the, ummm, _opportunity_ to catch quite a few whiffs ~an hour ago, as Mountie unexpectedly left four giant dollops of "_surprises_" in front of our door (thank goodness for hardwood floors). If we are one minute tardy in meeting him at the door immediately following his breakfast, then he will issue a stern and olfactory-convincing rebuke. He is training us as much as we are him in some respects...


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

I don't know, man this is the boy on Orijen Red (always served with warm water) + digestive enzymes. 
http://www.inclover.com/optagest_dogs.html
Well worth a look into. 
Apparently raw comes with a few natural enzymes more than kibble. Having been there I can tell you I don't want to bother with Raw anymore. Makes going on a trip very difficult, to say the least. 

I'll take the picture down, if objectionable. Don't mean to derail the thread, just setting the facts straight.


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## Mountain Man (Mar 29, 2013)

Datacan, I appreciate the link to OptaGest... It looks great. We will be placing an order to have some on-hand.

And, hey, no worries here re: poop. That's an exemplary sample! Ha! So much better than the flo-yellow soft-serve of Puppy Chow, for sure.

Lastly, your male is absolutely handsome. Don't know his pedigree or whether you are a hunter; however, this boy could grace the cover of any issue of Gun Dog Mag, Garden & Gun, and similar!

'Ppreciate it!
Corey


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## Darcy1311 (May 27, 2012)

datacan said:


> I don't know, man this is the boy on Orijen Red (always served with warm water) + digestive enzymes.
> http://www.inclover.com/optagest_dogs.html
> Well worth a look into.
> Apparently raw comes with a few natural enzymes more than kibble. Having been there I can tell you I don't want to bother with Raw anymore. Makes going on a trip very difficult, to say the least.
> ...


 I am so glad my laptop does not have a scratch and sniff facility....LOL...


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## hobbsy1010 (Jun 4, 2011)

Data
I'm really hoping that photo was taken in the garden on the snow.....
And not a photo from your freezer for further research purposes.


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## chrispycrunch (May 11, 2012)

Darcy1311 said:


> I am so glad my laptop does not have a scratch and sniff facility....LOL...


You're in luck........Google does it again.

Google Nose


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Mountain man 
Sam is special... only to me  (no really big names to his credit)
Been raised on forum wisdom. People on this forum are wise and really care. I only return what I learned. 


Ps hobbsy, this is Canadian spring in the forest. We have winter, summer, fall. Spring is conveniently left out of the seasons.

Darcy, what can I say, I always bag upwind, but it's much easier on the old olfactory senses than the presents the cat leaves in the litterbox ;D

Julius


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## lildancngurl (Jan 13, 2013)

You know what, please ignore what I said about TOTW having citric acid..I was thinking of blue buffalo when I wrote that. The only issue I have with TOTW ACTUALLY is that my pup still has soft stools on it..but with orijen, as I've already said, her stools are solid and healthy!


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## Canadian Expy (Feb 27, 2013)

We have Aspen on Acana Chicken & Burbank Potato since we got him at 8 weeks. He will be 12 weeks Thursday and no problems at all with the food. He seems to really like it


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