# pinch collars?



## mikesf

Are pinch collars a good training tool to keep Maci from pulling and lunging on a check cord? It took me 2 years with my Lab to get her to not pull on her leash with a standard collar. My concern with a pinch collar on Maci that she'll pull so hard she'll injure her neck. Is that a worry or should I get one for her and use it according to some of the training videos I have seen on the use of a pinch collar? Thanks in advance.
Mike


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## GarysApollo

I have never personally used a pinch collar. I know a few people that do use them or did anyway. I have head from them their dogs never tried to pull on them at all, and they only used them for a short time and did not need it after that.

My wife and I don't like the idea of thw pinch collars even though I have wanted to use one from time to time. We just do it the old fashion way, lots of stoping and turning. It does get frustrating.


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## datacan

http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,3397.msg23074.html#msg23074

Pinch collars are not just for hard dogs 


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-herm-sprenger-neck-tech-prong-collar-2.html


Herm Sprenger are the absolute best quality 

http://www.sprenger.de/open/language_id/2/action/standard;detail/menu/151/M/4isBCQ

/


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## zigzag

Use this properly. Wait till 6 months old, and enjoy walks with your dog.

http://www.gundogsupply.com/pincolleatex.html


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## SteelCityDozer

Agree with sprenger being the best. Buy one size up or get the rubber tips though bec short hair dogs will get marks. Know from experience. In the end I trained our first with the flat collar to go on walks nicely, after he was a year old. So I'll be doing the same with our current pup.


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## gunnr

Used correctly a pinch collar is an effective training device.
The key to using one is to understand it is a one way device. The dog must cause the correction, not the handler. 
It is a pressure and release device. Not just physically but mentally. In order for the dog to be released from the pressure, it has to yield to the collar and back it off enough to release.
Introduce it with the flat safety collar at first.

As a tip for the next time Maci pulls;

You stop and become a post. Don't talk, don't correct, don't chide or admonish. Stand there as emotional as a stump. The moment she finally stops pulling, put her at the heel and go in the opposite direction. Do this again and again and again and again and again.............
Every time she pulls, you become the stump she's tied too.


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## Vida

Really?! ???
Pinch collars??!! :'( :'(
Put it round your neck,then go find a decent trainer...
spend some money and some TIME training.


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## WillowyndRanch

I guess I'm not a decent trainer... 

Ken


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## texasred

WillowyndRanch said:


> I guess I'm not a decent trainer...
> 
> Ken


Dang. I guess the one I use isn't either. ;D


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## GarysApollo

Sure you are.

I think people who are uneducated on the pinch collar dont understand how they are properly used and focus on the PINCHING aspect of the tool.


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## gunnr

I'm not sure I agree with the summation that a pinch collar indicates lack of training ability. In fact I'm sure that I don't. The virtual who's who of gun dog training for decades have used them with great results. It's actually pretty judgmental, and is painting with a very broad brush.
Realize that the same thing was stated with respect to eCollar when they were first coming into acceptance as a training aid.

The Pinch collar, or choke chain was the Ace of Spades in the training deck, until the advent of the eCollar. Used properly it is a very effective training aid. Used improperly and it can be a cruel, abusive device. A person has to know how to use one, and how to train with one. You cannot simply put it around the dogs neck and go. It takes time, patience and discipline on the handlers part. There has to be a reason, an objective and a purpose to using one, as with any training aid.

I personally do not use one simply because I do not use any training aids that cannot be used during hunting, and that is a personal decision only applicable to me.
I also know of at least one forum member whose dog was running them through the ringer with just basic obedience training and had to go to the pinch style collar. Without it I do not believe they would have gotten as far as they have with their dog, their understanding of dogs, and training. Their dog is a "good citizen' now due to that style of collar.


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## zigzag

I dont have the time to train my dog "amish style" therfore I use a Pinch collar, Ecollar, Crate, Whoa Barrel, Bird launchers, Leash etc etc.....

You are correct if I was willing to spend more time and money I could have a well trained dog without any training aids.


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## Vida

The more I see of men...
the more I love my dogs. x


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## datacan

Big yes to pinch collars but a definite no to choke chains and flat collars when it comes to applying corrections. 

I did have the pinch collar and the choke chain around my arm and pulled hard. It was during a dog training seminar I took. 
The pinch collar left no visible marks, whereas the choke chain left a bruises which turned blue the next day. 

Flat collars and choke chains could cause damage to the dog's thyroid gland.


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## zigzag

I think this is a good point Datacan. The type of collar is important, they are not all equal. I put the collar around my upper leg pinch and chain and got the same results. Some will say that the "choke chain" if looped correctly is a safe tool. I disagree and would only suggest the use of a pinch collar.


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## Ozkar

I have never needed one, but I've only ever trained my own dogs on my own time. Perhaps I may should there be an urgent need to achieve something in a required time frame.

But for me I just allow the dog to be trained and ready, when the dog is trained and ready. If your world moves faster than mine, then who am I to judge or argue............... 

I Like the results I get without choker chains, pinch collars, walking harnesses or electronic collars. Yes it does take longer, but it sits better on my psyche...............


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## datacan

But you do have to use a collar. A simple flat collar? We are talking about training collars.

From a holistic viewpoint, I think the dog would benefit from a harness, or if it really needed a collar, a hound collar... 
But where is the fun in that? Would make for an interesting looking dog on a hunt. 

/


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## texasred

I think everybody should train just one dog with a collar, and a lead. Sure makes you appreciate all the tools you have at your disposal.
Ozkar maybe in your eyes I am in a hurry but I still can only move as fast as the dog comes along. That never changes. What is does allow is me being able to hunt over my dog its first year. What do the hunting dogs love most? Hunting.
So essentially these tool are a benefit to dog and owner.


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## WillowyndRanch

TexasRed said:


> I still can only move as fast as the dog comes along. That never changes.


Amen Sister, Amen!

I strive to use the tool appropriate for the dog, at the time it's required. There are many dogs that never see a pinch collar, but when I need it, it's a correct tool for the job. When one works with dogs all day every day they take a toll on the human body as well. Bird dogs are Power. There are dogs that are so powerful that they will and have injured their trainers, merely by yanking them. In those cases a "turn in direction" with a lead and flat collar or harness (that gives no point of contact from which to train) can results in torn shoulders, sore backs, pulled muscles, etc. That does no benefit to dog(s) or trainer. I can tell you the first month of Summer camp comes with significant doses of Advil for all the young dogs on checkcord and yard work. I love when they graduate to some free running...

Suitcasing the dog (a half hitch around the waist) is another point of contact and is essentially a pinch without the collar in some fairly delicate areas. Keeping with a single point of contact through the collar (whether flat, e, or pinch) helps keep signals clear to the dog.

Ken


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## Vida

I too work with dogs day in day out. Even today!
I agree that powerful untrained dogs cause the human body damage.
I had a spinal op last May after injuring myself struggling with a 35kg gun dog. But I never used,or encouraged the owner to use any form of negative training aid. 
I am not a dog trainer. 
However as a dog owner , mother and grandmother I believe in kindness and compassion towards all animals , hoomans included!


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## WillowyndRanch

Vida said:


> I believe in kindness and compassion towards all animals


The tool does not dictate kindness or compassion, the person using it does. I've witnessed a dog flailed and whipped using the 6 foot leash and a dog drug around using a flat collar by people filled with anger. 

There is no better compassion shown a dog than training it so that it stays out of a shelter or forced to submit to a Vet's death needle. I'd prefer to give them a pinch than a needle, and I think if they could comprehend that so would they.

Ken


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## OttosMama

Out of curiousity, in regards to the original post, would those that advocate the use of a pinch collar recommend using it with the "check cord" as *MikeSF* had originally indicated? I always thought of the check cord as being a long line that gave the dog some freedom to run, either held by the handler or dragging behind the dog. In my case, we used it when we couldn't trust Otto off leash completely. We would attach it to his harness so that if we needed to step on it when he was running or while he was stationary - almost as a backup to the recall. I can't imagine using a pinch collar on a dog in this circumstance because I can only assume it could cause some severe damage. I'm wondering if this is the intent of the OP (not assuming it is, but just want to clarify just incase). MikeSF does refer to his dog "pulling" so he might use the check cord for different training than we had - however, Otto would pull on the check cord if we held it or run full speed to the end of it from time to time.


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## datacan

I used the pinch collar when training but for general use I never leave home without my British slip lead. Absolute favorite walking lead.


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## gunnr

Otto'sMama

No, a slip collar would not be used with a check cord. The check cord gets tangled up in the brush and can bring the dog to an abrupt stop. Having a slip collar would inflict too much pain at the end of a stop.


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## OttosMama

Oh ok, thank you Gunnr. So a pinch collar wouldn't harm the dog with a check cord? Or is a pinch collar also a type of slip collar? (I have never used a pinch collar so I don't really know how they work.)


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## Ozkar

TexasRed said:


> I think everybody should train just one dog with a collar, and a lead. Sure makes you appreciate all the tools you have at your disposal.
> Ozkar maybe in your eyes I am in a hurry but I still can only move as fast as the dog comes along. That never changes. What is does allow is me being able to hunt over my dog its first year. What do the hunting dogs love most? Hunting.
> So essentially these tool are a benefit to dog and owner.


TR, I am not passing judgement, nor am I criticising your or any of the others preferences. As I stated, It's MY pace. That doesn't mean anyone else's pace is not appropriate to them. I am just saying that it is how I do it. I am totally OK with you doing it whichever way, using whatever tools you feel are useful. I am just offering my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. No need to be defensive with me.


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## Darcy1311

At the end of the day we all do what we think is best, and what works for our dog's.That's what this very fine forum is for, it's the love training and welfare of our beautiful breed, that brings us all in front of our computers...and sharing our thoughts.. ;D


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## datacan

Be reasonable, do it MY way


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## gunnr

OttosMama said:


> Oh ok, thank you Gunnr. So a pinch collar wouldn't harm the dog with a check cord? Or is a pinch collar also a type of slip collar? (I have never used a pinch collar so I don't really know how they work.)


 Not exactly. A pinch collar, or prong collar, can do quite a bit of damage on a check cord.
The pinch collar as I know it has two sides with that pivot off a chain that interconnects them, in addition to making a full loop.
A slip collar, pinch collar, choke chain, slip lead, all require the ability for the dog to be able to free itself from the pressure of the collar. 
If it is attached to the end of a check the dog could hit the end of the check cord at a run and then the collar takes over.
In my opinion using both together would be the antithesis of each device. The Check cord is used only to extend the leash after basic obedience has been taught on the leash. It is not a discipline, or a control device. Only after the dog is no slip on a leash does it transition to the check cord. If you can not get a dog to obey on a leash, you will never get it to obey on the check cord with any consistency.
The collar(s) are used with the leash only. For close in, hands on, obedience work.


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## datacan

Prongs, prong collar, pinch collar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85r03U5WPV8

_"Study of Prong Collars in Germany

Information from Anne Marie Silverton Seminar

•100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.

•The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.

•Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.

•Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma."_


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## datacan

Just in case anyone thinks this can be handled safely on a flat collar...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H67MxrPbvI


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## texasred

Ozkar said:


> TexasRed said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think everybody should train just one dog with a collar, and a lead. Sure makes you appreciate all the tools you have at your disposal.
> Ozkar maybe in your eyes I am in a hurry but I still can only move as fast as the dog comes along. That never changes. What is does allow is me being able to hunt over my dog its first year. What do the hunting dogs love most? Hunting.
> So essentially these tool are a benefit to dog and owner.
> 
> 
> 
> TR, I am not passing judgement, nor am I criticising your or any of the others preferences. As I stated, It's MY pace. That doesn't mean anyone else's pace is not appropriate to them. I am just saying that it is how I do it. I am totally OK with you doing it whichever way, using whatever tools you feel are useful. I am just offering my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. No need to be defensive with me.
Click to expand...

 I didn't see this earlier.
I didn't think you were passing judgement and I wasn't trying to be defensive.
Its all good.


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## v-john

I'm not a fan of the metal prong collars and definately not a fan of the choke chains, but will use the pinch collars extensively... Especially when getting the dogs to stand. This is the very foundation of teaching dogs to stand through the flush. 
As far as leash walking, I've seen them used in that manner as well but often incorrectly. Some folks just put them on and let the dogs still try to pull through the collar. Often, though, it just takes a quick correction and soon the dog get's the picture.


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## harrigab

what's the difference between a prong and pinch collar? I thought they were the same thing.


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## v-john

harrigab said:


> what's the difference between a prong and pinch collar? I thought they were the same thing.


These are prong collars.

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=prong collars&page=1&rh=i:aps,k:prong collars

These are pinch collars

http://www.gundogsupply.com/leather-pinch-collars.html

I like the pinch collars because they are designed so that when you use them and make a correction (by pulling on the leash/collar) it's a quick correction and then it easily releases. The prong collars can get hung up, caught on the chains, and IMO the correction is more about the prongs going into the dog, whereas the leather collar correction is more about pinching and quickly releasing the dog. I understand the leather collars still have studs but they aren't nearly as long and aren't as conducsive a painful correction as the others are. 

But that's all my opinion, and I'm not knocking the other collars that are so popular. Just aren't for me, that's all.


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## datacan

WOW.. they still make them out of leather... V-J you're showing your age (sorry, just kidding)  
My grandfather had kept them in the barn, I remember...brings back memories.

Just finished placing the order... I want one for Sammy... thanks again for the link.


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## v-john

datacan said:


> WOW.. they still make them out of leather... V-J you're showing your age (sorry, just kidding)
> My grandfather had kept them in the barn, I remember...brings back memories.
> 
> Just finished placing the order... I want one for Sammy... thanks again for the link.


 I'm 35, but I feel 65 sometimes.  
I learned from some of the best, Maurice Lindley (wrote a book, Training with Mo) uses them extensively, and so does Dave Jones. They learned from Bill West, and Bill Gibbons so they have been around a while!


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## born36

Good old fashioned English slip lead works best.


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## datacan

V-John said:


> I'm 35, but I feel 65 sometimes.
> I learned from some of the best, Maurice Lindley (wrote a book, Training with Mo) uses them extensively, and so does Dave Jones. They learned from Bill West, and Bill Gibbons so they have been around a while!


I'm 44. Am I grown up yet? :-[

Training with MO is a great book, one more reason to order it... Darn,,,, collar's in the mail already.

Wish I paid more attention what they were doing back then... had a front seat to old style hunting dog training and lost it due to ignorance... Guns were unreliable (or never cleaned), dogs did most of the work 

Julius


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## WillowyndRanch

I'm 51 and regressing in age. I chase bird dogs, ride ATV's and horses and do a lot of traveling and camping. It's a wonderful childhood! ;D

Ken


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## R E McCraith

Ken - n Data - turning 65 this year = free hunting license in Ky - still will pay for it - it is what protects what PIKE & I hunt - looking for a mid life crisis - the V's keep me from getting there ! LOL


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