# Diarrhea



## Cooperpooperscooper (Jan 25, 2015)

Our V is 10 months old now and ever since we brought him home he has had chronic diarrhea and is quite thin. People ask if we feed him. We did orijens six fish and that did not help so it is not a chicken allergy. We spent quiet a lot testing him for stuff, but all came back negative. The vet gave him an antibiotic, pancur, and k-pectin, and prescription ID- which made it worse. He was dewormed in Feb so its not that. He was taking trifexis up until recently. We are now giving him flea treats and diatomaceous earth. Once we got him on timberwolf (lamb and apple)he got better. We have also been adding probiotics to his food. We were also doing raw goats milk and fish oil, but stopped because his poo got much again. It got better again, but not great poo. Diarrhea decreased over all, but still continued. e

Yesterday morning he threw up half his toy and later in the day he stole half our dinner off the counter (chicken with olive oil, paprika, salt, and pepper). He had descent poo this morning, but it has been very watery diarrhea ever since. Obviously the toy and the chicken is not helping the situation. 

List of things that we have tried:
1. canned pumpkin
2. anti-biotic
3. pancur
4. k-pectin
5. raw goats milk
6. fish oil
7. non-chicken food
8. He eats grain-free

He eats and begs for more. He continues to be energetic.

Thanks in advance to everyone!!


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## gingerling (Jun 20, 2015)

You need a different vet.

Diarrhea can be caused by many things, including allergies and parasites and infections, but also biological events like Crohns Disease, colitis, liver issues, pancreatic issues etc. A Good vet will know the proper diagnostics and how to interpret them.

Also, please remember that chronic diarrhea is very serious as it basically flushes everything out of the body that it otherwise needs, like water, minerals, and nutrients. It's something that requires active treatment and resolution, and fairly rapidly, too. So your first task here is to get to a good vet, is there a specialized animal hospital near by, maybe one affiliated with a large vet uni, like Cornell? 

You need accurate diagnosis and treatment, and fast...and until then, don't muck around with experiments like fish oil or pumpkin.


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## Canadian Expy (Feb 27, 2013)

If your vet has run tests for parasites, etc and all have come back negative my suspicion would be the food. If you do not trust your vet's diagnosis, I would seek a second opinion though. 

You can feed a dog the best quality food, but it doesn't mean it is the best for that particular dog. Orijen is a high protein food, which some dogs cannot handle. You did not mention how long he had been on the six fish food, but if it had been for some time with prolonged diarrhea, he may have developed colitis. You mentioned when you switch him to the Timberwolf (lamb and apple) his stool improved, but it is still not corrected. For now, you may need to go to an even lower quality food, with grain to increase the roughness in the food, and allow the bowel to recover. 

The last foster dog I had came to me with a similar issue and all tests were negative for parasites, worms, etc. I started out feeding her Acana lamb and apple, but her stool started out soft, and progressed to very soft, and eventually liquid. Rice, pumpkin, etc had no effect. I then switch her to a limited ingredient food, which was still too high quality for her system at that time. In the end I went and bought a bag of Pedigree (she was likely on similar quality food in the shelter she came from) and within a few days I saw significant improvement, and within 1-2 weeks her stool was firm. After consistently firm stools occurred for the next week or so I gradually started re-introducing the Acana lamb/apple over the next couple of weeks, and now her stools are perfect and she fully transitioned onto the Acana. I'm not saying to go buy a bag of Pedigree, but I would discuss with your vet, or try going to a reputable food store and discuss the issue your having with them and see what they might recommend for food. 

This was just my experience and may not be the situation for your boy, but thought it might be of some help. Hopefully you can get your pups system back on track soon.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

How about trying a raw diet? When my dog was a puppy she had diarrhea on and off very frequently, sometimes bloody, and I tried many of the same things you did. As soon as I switched to a raw diet, starting with chicken, bones and all, her stools normalized and 2 years later I couldn't be more pleased with how she's developed. The bone acts much like fiber does in our diet and firms up the stools. Even if your dog ends up having a more serious ailment, you can't go wrong switching to a natural diet.

I would also highly recommend finding a holistic vet. Our original vet was very friendly and competent, but our appts always felt a bit impersonal and rushed. When I asked him about her diarrhea issue he actually brushed it off as something normal for puppies because they're always chewing on stuff. Though I was initially skeptical, we switched to a holistic vet and it was an entirely different experience. She took time to understand every single aspect of my dog's life and respected me. Western medicine at its worst seems to look at symptoms individually and throw drugs at it until something works. Holistic medicine by definition takes into account the whole body, how it works together and how environment interacts with it.


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## trevor1000 (Sep 20, 2013)

I second the Acana and the raw foods.
Bacchus has been on Acana and raw for a year or so.
I'd say right now he is %80 kibble and %20 raw. 
He also gets fish oil and coconut oil as well
He did get the runs now and then but would not last too long.
When he did, we fed him Sweet Potato and rice, mixed with his kibble and it seemed to help.
If your boy is a bit skinny I would try some "Satin Balls" to put a little fat on him although I would settle his tummy issues first.
When I thought Bacchus was getting too skinny I would make a batch and I could see a difference in about a week.
He would eat as many as i gave him, the piglet. haha


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Canadian said:


> If your vet has run tests for parasites, etc and all have come back negative my suspicion would be the food. If you do not trust your vet's diagnosis, I would seek a second opinion though.
> 
> You can feed a dog the best quality food, but it doesn't mean it is the best for that particular dog. Orijen is a high protein food, which some dogs cannot handle. You did not mention how long he had been on the six fish food, but if it had been for some time with prolonged diarrhea, he may have developed colitis. You mentioned when you switch him to the Timberwolf (lamb and apple) his stool improved, but it is still not corrected. For now, you may need to go to an even lower quality food, with grain to increase the roughness in the food, and allow the bowel to recover.
> 
> ...


I 2nd what Canadian Expy posted.
Some pups just cant handle the very high protein in some of the high quality foods.
You said your pup is thin, and I'm assuming still hungry because the food is passing through to quickly. Other than what was already posted, I would feed 3-4 times a day, but small meals.
A pup can have a intolerance to some foods, even though they are not allergic to them.


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## lilyloo (Jun 20, 2012)

TexasRed said:


> Canadian said:
> 
> 
> > If your vet has run tests for parasites, etc and all have come back negative my suspicion would be the food. If you do not trust your vet's diagnosis, I would seek a second opinion though.
> ...


Agree with both of these posters! I also want to add that it's very likely that your pup needs some probiotics added to his diet. With diarrhea for that long he has probably lost all the "good" bacteria in his gut and the bad bacteria is taking it over. This is a very good product and can be sprinkled and mixed into the food. It can take a couple weeks to see positive effects, so stick it out. http://www.amazon.com/Probiotics-Do...1435330356&sr=8-1&keywords=probiotics+for+dog


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## MCD (May 4, 2013)

We had serious digestive upset with Dharma- her treats, her food, adding anything like yogurt or peanut butter. She is 2 now and still sometimes has the runs if she gets overloaded. We give her a mix of 2 high quality kibbles and that works. We also will give her liver, chicken, or hotdogs occasionally. Sometimes a spoonful of yogurt is ok. We walk a fine line with food and Dharma's tummy but it has gotten better as she gets older. Stick it out, find out what works, but do it gradually.


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## Cooperpooperscooper (Jan 25, 2015)

Thank You everyone!!

Gingerling...unfortunately we have banfield and it will cost us to cancel before December. We will def. be switching to another insurance in December and I have found a couple holistic vets in the area. The vet ran many test, some of which were sent to a specialized lab and she has been consulting with a specialist. 

Einspanner...We are seriously considering a raw diet. We are currently feeding him chicken an rice with pro-biotics and enzymes and it is working great. We obviously can't keep him on it forever, but this seems to be working for him we are thinking raw will be the best way to go at this point.

We are going keep him on chicken and rice for a couple of more days an see if the improvement continues. 

Im keeping my fingers crossed that this leads to better stool and some weight gain. He hasn't lost his Vizsla energy.


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm glad you're seeing some progress on the chicken and rice and it's a good call to keep him on that for the time being. Let us know how he gets on!

There's a few threads with good info on the raw diet if you want to read up on it more. I think our member Spy Car is also in SoCal, so he might be a good one to talk to for some tips on cheap sources. If you do go that route, try and get some green (unbleached) tripe sooner than later. The stuff stinks horribly, but it's easy to digest and full of good enzymes and pro-biotics.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Cooperpooperscooper,

I'm up in Encino, so not directly local to you, but I'm happy to share my knowledge of SoCal sources for raw if you're interested. I must say I envy your access to the amazing dog beach there in Huntington Beach. We travel down periodically as Chester (our 14 month old V) just loves romping on that beach. I might be there everyday were it on my doorstep.

I've been reading the thread with interest. I'd be concerned about chronic diarrhea (as I know you are) and I would not want to treat a raw diet a a panacea if there was an underlying medical condition that was being missed. But, as you are seeking medical answers (which have not been forthcoming) and diet does seem to be a factor, I certainly suggest trying a raw diet if you are so inclined.

As Einspänner suggested earlier, even if there might be something else going on, having your V on the most optimal of diets is only to your advantage. In the best case, eliminating the diet of unnatural ingredients might solve the problem at its source.

Certainly worth a try IMO. If you have questions feel free to ask.

All the best,

Bill


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## Cooperpooperscooper (Jan 25, 2015)

Hi Bill, 
Im envious of where you live right now. 4th of July has already started, but without the crowd. Fireworks start about 2 weeks early here. Cooper is dealing with it rather well. 

Cooper does get to go to the beach almost everyday. He has started jumping over waves which is pretty cool. 

Do you make your own raw food or do you buy it already made. My boyfriend met a v owner at the beach who feeds raw; he gets his food already prepared from a supplier at the Irvine Farmer's Market. Its pricey, but I am wondering if it would be a good place to start. We are thinking try it out for about a month, if it yields result then continue. Do you add vegetables to Chester's food? We have read a lot about raw food, and we think its a great idea, but since we are unfamiliar with it, its kinda scary. There are some people that feed veggies and others that don't. Is there a book or a website you recommend? We have also considered cooking for him, but I read that cooking it kills some of the good stuff.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Cooperpooperscooper said:


> Hi Bill,
> Im envious of where you live right now. 4th of July has already started, but without the crowd. Fireworks start about 2 weeks early here. Cooper is dealing with it rather well.
> 
> Cooper does get to go to the beach almost everyday. He has started jumping over waves which is pretty cool.
> ...


You win location-wise with that beach. Nice of you to pretend otherwise  We are blessed with a wonderful "unofficial" off-leash park nearby that we enjoy daily (so can't complain) but wow to have that beach to do to everyday would be a dream.

I'm a DIY sort of raw feeder. For many reasons, including (but not limited to) cost. I can get high quality whole ingredients far more economically than purchasing "mixes."

This way I also know what I'm getting. And I have options around what goes into each meal (which I try to make highly diverse, but "balanced" both day-to-day and week-to-week).

I'm also not a fan of (generally speaking) of serving pre-ground food. When dogs chew whole pieces of meat, raw meaty bones, and connective tissues, they get a workout. The chewing keeps the teeth really clean. You should see Chester. His teeth look like a "movie star" smile, so white they almost look fake. People comment daily.

Chewing also relaxes dogs and they get strong from the work (more than you'd realize). Grinding food undermines these advantages. There are a couple of things (like green tripe) that I can only get ground, so I make an exception. Otherwise I like whole pieces. It is more work to break down food into portion sizes (which I then freeze) than having something pre-made. For me it is worth it, but I like food prep.

I don't fed vegetables (with rare exceptions). I thought I might starting out, but as I (over) researched the nutritional profiles of the foods I intended to serve I realized all the nutrients were well covered by feeding meat, poultry, organs, and oily fish. Vegetables only added carbohydrates, which are not essential to canine health (and what I was looking to avoid in commercial dogs food). So while I tend to dislike being in a "camp" I came to find my thoughts aligned with what "Prey Model" type feeders advocate and away from the BARF method. Instead of attempting to make a better version of a commercial type food I'm looking to serve an optimal natural diet.

I can tell you that I had my own trepidations doing this. My wife much more so. I made a "deal" that we give it a go (from 8 weeks) and that if it wasn't working to her satisfaction (or mine) we'd stop. Instead the results have been spectacular. Beyond my highest expectations. The Vs health, condition, and vitality could not be better. This fur is glossy and soft, the teeth gleam, and he's lean and muscular and energetic. I've raised many fine gun-dogs in my life, and I see the difference in condition this diet makes. It is obvious. That is the truth. I now grin when I hear my wife extolling the virtues of raw feeding to friends. She's sold. We'd never voluntarily go back to feeding kibble. 

The biggest problem I have with cooked food isn't whatever diminution of nutrients that might occur, but that cooking meals eliminates serving bone, which is vital to good health (and should not be served cooked). Chicken pieces like quarters and drumsticks, for example, are a great source of soft (raw) edible bone. Raw chicken bone is great for dogs. Cooked bone is a hazard.

More later.

Bill


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## Cooperpooperscooper (Jan 25, 2015)

We began raw about three days ago. It is the best poo I have every seen!

We found a supplier based out of Idyllwild that goes to the Irvine farmers market. A v owner that my boyfriend met at the beach told him about it. They use organic chicken. Its about $1.99 a pounds which isn't bad for it being organic. It ends up being just about the same as the kibble. Cooper really enjoys it. We were so excited to see his poo. 

Thanks for all the help!


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Cooperpooperscooper said:


> We began raw about three days ago. It is the best poo I have every seen!
> 
> We found a supplier based out of Idyllwild that goes to the Irvine farmers market. A v owner that my boyfriend met at the beach told him about it. They use organic chicken. Its about $1.99 a pounds which isn't bad for it being organic. It ends up being just about the same as the kibble. Cooper really enjoys it. We were so excited to see his poo.
> 
> Thanks for all the help!


Awesome news.

Is this a pre-ground mix? What's in it? 

As you transition you might find yourself haunting markets up on Bolsa looking for "odd bits" 

Bill


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## Bob Engelhardt (Feb 14, 2012)

Cooperpooperscooper said:


> ...
> We were so excited to see his poo.
> ...


Where but on HVF would such a comment be accepted as normal?


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Bob said:


> Cooperpooperscooper said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


A parenting or a weird fetish forum, perhaps? You crack me up, Bob.


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## mswhipple (Mar 7, 2011)

LOL! You're right, though. We all think it's perfectly normal to talk about dog poo. ;D


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## Cooperpooperscooper (Jan 25, 2015)

it is Monarch Raw Diet

ingredients:
organic poultry
done
bone marrow
salmon oil
ocean kelp
organic vegetable protein


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

sounds good. The only thing I'd recommend adding is some kind of liver and other offal to make sure you're not missing any key nutrients. Aim for around 10% of whatever amount you're already feeding.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Cooperpooperscooper said:


> it is Monarch Raw Diet
> 
> ingredients:
> organic poultry
> ...


Is "done" supposed to be "bone"?

I'd be concerned about making this the sole source of a dog's diet. "Poultry" alone as a protein source is not sufficient IMO for the long haul. Part of sound diet is feeding a diversify of proteins, and red meats are particularly important in the mix.

Then there don't appear to be any organs listed. Liver, kidney and other organs are vital sources of vitamins and other nutrients.

Finally "organic vegetable protein" sounds like a sketchy and unnecessary ingredient in a quality raw mix.

Hate to be skeptical, but I have my doubts about this being a complete diet.

Bill


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## Cooperpooperscooper (Jan 25, 2015)

Done is bone. 
My bf was the one that spoke and met the owner. The owner said there was organ meat. I believe the organic poultry means the whole poultry. You can see the different types of parts in the mix. 

They do have other meats. We only bought a weeks worth to see how it went. We are going back to get more tomorrow. We will also supplementing with other meats of our own, which we already have. Cooper needs to gain weight so Im sure he will not mind eating a bit extra. 

From what we have read, there are some people that add mulched up veggies to their dog's food and other that do not. We decided to go with the vegetables. 

einspanner- what is offal?

So far cooper is doing great and we have never seen such great stool.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Cooperpooperscooper said:


> Done is bone.
> My bf was the one that spoke and met the owner. The owner said there was organ meat. I believe the organic poultry means the whole poultry. You can see the different types of parts in the mix.
> 
> They do have other meats. We only bought a weeks worth to see how it went. We are going back to get more tomorrow. We will also supplementing with other meats of our own, which we already have. Cooper needs to gain weight so Im sure he will not mind eating a bit extra.
> ...


Offal is a catch-all term that refers to the odd bits of an animal that are left over post butchering exclusive of meat and bone. Like organs, feet, tripe, ears, tails, etc.

Good to know there are organs in the mix, and that there are other mixes with other types of meats. It is OK to start with chicken/poultry (most people do) you'll just want to diversify the different protein sources as time goes by.

I'd advise the non-plant versions of the mixes. These are no nutrients that dogs don't assimilate better from animals sources vs plant sources. Canines are not the the same as people in that regard.

Great to hear Copper is doing well on the raw!

Bill


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## Cooperpooperscooper (Jan 25, 2015)

Bill, I got one very important question.

We went camping this weekend and his food took over half our cooler. We would like to eventually go backpacking. We know how to reduce our own load, but how would we deal with the raw food? Do you have any experience with backpacking and raw food?

Cooper loves camping. Three days of being completely off leash; he forgot how to walk on the leash. If you like camping, i highly suggest Onion Valley Campground. Its about 20 miles north of lone pine (closest town to mt. whitney). Totally dog friendly and they don't care if your dog is off leash as long as it is well behaved. Awesome hiking to lakes and waterfalls. Cooper just jumped in. He was super happy.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

Cooperpooperscooper said:


> Bill, I got one very important question.
> 
> We went camping this weekend and his food took over half our cooler. We would like to eventually go backpacking. We know how to reduce our own load, but how would we deal with the raw food? Do you have any experience with backpacking and raw food?
> 
> Cooper loves camping. Three days of being completely off leash; he forgot how to walk on the leash. If you like camping, i highly suggest Onion Valley Campground. Its about 20 miles north of lone pine (closest town to mt. whitney). Totally dog friendly and they don't care if your dog is off leash as long as it is well behaved. Awesome hiking to lakes and waterfalls. Cooper just jumped in. He was super happy.


There are some dehydrated raw foods. Ziwipeak (from New Zealand is one) and I believe Orijen has one. Kind of expensive for regular feeding, but might be perfect for backpacking. I've also dehydrated my own things to use as training treats, so DIY would work too.

Good to know about Onion Valley. We took Chester up to June Lake this winter and he had a blast in the snow. I like the idea of having a dog friendly place to camp up there. 

Bill


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## Rufus Tiberius (Dec 18, 2012)

I used to backpack with my last V, Nikolai. Until he was around 8 months, I would carry his food and gear. But I got him used to wearing his doggie backpack, albeit empty, after our first few outings together.

As he got older I started to transition some of the load I was carrying for him, too him. I kept it lite. I found the heaviest thing I was carrying for him was his food. I figured since I was dehydrating my own food to lighten my load, why couldn't I do the same for his food. Since I was making his food, I started to do just that. I didn't change his diet, just dehydrated what I was feeding him at home. I went from 3-4 day trips to 2 week+ trips by dehydrating his food. Yes, I did carry some of it for a 2 week trip, but slowly moved it to his pack and lightend my load. He ate very well, never refused a meal, and actually gained weight on a few trips and never had a case of diarrhea. 

You could dehydrate your own raw diet recipes and know what Cooper is getting rather than buy prepackaged raw. Get a good dehydrator and try it. 

RT


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## Canadian Expy (Feb 27, 2013)

We dehydrate our food for our backcountry trips, and if we ever go raw with our V we will do the same for him. If you choose to dehydrate, the 9 tray Excalibur model is excellent. 

Also, for packs we have the Ruffwear Palisades pack which fits great, carries his food, and his bed (Ruffwear makes a bed that fits in the pack). (photo below)


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Yeah, what Bill said. Offal is one of those words I never used before feeding raw, but I just mean the secreting organs like liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc. Heart, tripe, and some other odd and ends are actually considered muscle meat in this diet, so while technically they may be offal, I categorize them differently. 

For backpacking I definitely like the idea of homemade dehydrating, if that's an option. Probably more budget friendly! If water is limited you may want to look into a commercial freeze-dried food like vital essentials, vs a dehydrated product that requires adding a bunch of water like honest kitchen. That's a tough one though.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

einspänner said:


> Yeah, what Bill said. Offal is one of those words I never used before feeding raw, but I just mean the secreting organs like liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc. Heart, tripe, and some other odd and ends are actually considered muscle meat in this diet, so while technically they may be offal, I categorize them differently.
> 
> For backpacking I definitely like the idea of homemade dehydrating, if that's an option. Probably more budget friendly! If water is limited you may want to look into a commercial freeze-dried food like vital essentials, vs a dehydrated product that requires adding a bunch of water like honest kitchen. That's a tough one though.


Einspänner, you're quite right that in PMR feeding "organs" mean feeding "secreting organs" like liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc. With you there 100%.

As you say, Heart while an "organ" in the ordinary sense, is not a "secreting organ" in PMR and is treated as a "meat." Again, with you 100%.

But "offal" as a synonym for "secreting organs"?  ;D

Not with you on that one. Offal is just too useful a term to describe odd bits to limit its meaning to "secreting organs" (which already have a name). Tripe, etc is offal. Offal that is counted as "meat."

When figuring out the cost of DIY dehydrating vs using something like Ziwipeak one need to factor in the cost of the dehydrator (if not labour) in the cost.

Bill


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