# Neuter Advice



## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

Hello Vizsla owners! Looking for a bit of advice for the 2 weeks after neutering. 

Miles is 8 months old and we have his neuter appointment scheduled for just after the 9 month mark. Our vet has told us that we shouldn't run Miles or let him play with other dogs for 2 weeks so the stitches don't open. Miles is an active puppy, and gets about 3 hours of exercise daily mostly consisting of off leash trail runs, on leash beach running, and off leash dog park time with his puppy friends. We walk him at lunch mostly due to time constraint and not wanting to get sweaty on our lunch break, but this doesn't seem to tire him too much. 

My concern is that Miles is going to go crazy with the exercise restrictions. We are fortunate that he doesn't and hasn't ever chewed our belongings or furniture, and he has graduated from his crate to being allowed to explore the dining room and kitchen when we are away. We don't want destructive behavior to start! Any advice on how to get through the two weeks with an intact home and happy Vizsla?


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Hi MilesMom - why does your vet advise getting him neutered so early? There is a lot of crucial bone/ligament development that takes place up until 18 months. I've seen several males who were neutered before the 18 month mark and they tend to look very tall, thin, and girly. I highly recommend waiting the full 18 months (as does our breeder) so that your boy can develop fully.


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

We were told to wait 18 months as well, but Miles has started marking and this past weekend his friend came over for the night and when she left he marked over the place she was sitting. We were lucky what he marked was washable! A lot of dog walkers and day cares also won't watch him if he isn't fixed. We were hoping to wait until at least December when he is a year, but peeing in the house was the final straw!


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

We are open to advice on how to stop marking too! Maybe we could wait a little longer if we could curb this behavior. Also concerned about aggression and humping if we wait too long.


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## Oquirrh the V (Jun 24, 2011)

Oquirrh is 18 months and not neutered. He marks like crazy when he is outside and has tried to mark in my dad's house (my dad has a black lab) or at hotels. I've never had a problem with him marking any where in our house, or the new house we moved into. With regards to him trying to mark in my dad's house, he tried it twice. I made a quick, loud, ah! and put him outside. I only had to do this twice and he didn't try to mark for the next 6 days while he stayed with my dad. As for him marking in your house, the only advice I have is to make sure the areas he is marking or has peed when he was younger are thoroughly cleaned. Sorry, I don't have much advice since Oquirrh has never marked in my house.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/09/vizslas-and-marking.html

Article about marking above.

MilesMom. 

It's easy for us who did not neuter our dogs to give advice but each person has their reasons. For Miles health, the longer you wait the better his bones will develop. He needs the testosterone in his system to trigger when to growth plates quit moving. Stand two male Vizslas next to each other. Given the same exercise the intact male will look like a male dog. The neutered dog will not.

Long term Miles should be in better health if you can make it to 18 months. Not easy - but doable.

RBD


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## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm glad someone brought this topic up! I was planning on starting a similar thread because I had some concerns! Last weekend, I met up with Suliko and her two lovely ladies. First, Pacsirta went pee and Otto lifted his leg and peed in the exact same spot. I don't think he got Pacsi that time, but then not 5 minutes later, her oldest dog Sophie went and Otto lifted his leg and peed ON HER!  It's a behavior that's difficult to control, mainly because the dogs are off leash and out of my grasp, but I definitely don't want Otto marking other dogs, especially dogs we love so much! :-\ 

I read your blog post, RBD. So maybe that means he "wants" the girls? He was _extremely interested_ in the little one, Pacsi. Much more than in the past. On other walks, I've wondered if Otto even realised their was a difference between himself and the girls! This time, he was all over Pacsi. Luckily, she showed him she was not tolerating that kind of business!

Did Bailey do the same when he was amongst other females when he was Otto's age?


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## Oquirrh the V (Jun 24, 2011)

OttosMama -
I know the feeling of your dog peeing on another dog, but it sounds like Otto wasn't "purposely" peeing on Sophie, he just had to hurry to cover her smell, right? I wouldn't worry too much about that. I've seen Oquirrh stick his face 'down there' while another dog was peeing and it's his fault if he gets peed on. Okay, that's a little different than if he is peeing on another dog. But Oquirrh has walked up to another dog, while the dog was just standing there and tried to pee on him! He has also tried to pee on one gentleman's pant leg. :-[ My question is, even if I choose to neuter Oquirrh now that he is 18 months, will the marking become less? I've heard that it will never stop once they have started, but after reading RBD's article, it also sounds like Bailey has peed on a person? And RBD, that type of marking did seem to mellow out when Bailey got older?


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2009/09/horny-male-vizsla.html

What I have noticed is urinating can be marking or dominance. A way of stating "I'm here - deal with me." Bailey has lifted his leg on a person while we were standing and talking. 

He doesn't mark in the house and on walks he has designated marking spots when we go on on-leash walks. We acknowledge those are "have to" spots. Other marking opportunities are at my choice.

Has marking decreased? Not really except he has stopped marking on people's pant legs and expensive sport car wheels.  

Part of being a strong-willed hunting dog owner. I'm fine with it. Chloe is fine with having her strong protector around.


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## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Oquirrh,

I don't think he was trying to actually pee ON them, but like you say, cover up where they just went. I had understood that marking was a "dominance" issue and Otto isn't really all that dominant so I thought something else must be going on. As of yet, we haven't had issues in the house or on people (fingers crossed it stays that way!) 

My parents' dog marks like the best of them and he was neutered early on. Definitely by 8 months, maybe even 6.


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## Oquirrh the V (Jun 24, 2011)

redbirddog said:


> Part of being a strong-willed hunting dog owner. I'm fine with it. Chloe is fine with having her strong protector around.


That's how I mostly feel - I'm fine with it. I hate having to worry about him marking someone's pant leg, but it is what it is. On an on-leash walk, I too only let Oquirrh sniff/mark in certain spots. The majority of the walk he is not allowed to even sniff the ground, which prevents him from having to mark. 
I guess I haven't looked at it as a purely dominance thing. It's just natural and people are going to have to deal with Oquirrh marking, besides when it is inappropriate.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm feeling pretty snarky, so I'll just start by saying I'm very sorry for what I'm about to say.

Guess what? You've got a Dog. It's not a person, it's a Dog! Dogs Mark, whether they've got their bits or not. Male or Female, doesn't matter. It's their social hierarchy and way of communicating with each other. They also _really, really_ like sniffing each others hind ends. If the people whos dogs your dog is around can't comprehend that, suggest they get a cat.

Ask the Vet who's pushing the early spay/neuter for a money back guarantee. If your dog marks after another dog, or pees in a new home after he's had his bits removed you'd like your money back for the surgery, plus the cleaning bill. If he ever gets in a scuffle with another dog, you'd like your money back. I mean why not? It's the answer to every behavioural issue of a dog acting like a dog, isn't it?

He'll laugh you right out of his office. They know it doesn't change a thing, because a dog is a dog is a dog. 

Again, I apologize.
Rant over.
Ken 

P.S. I think Maybe it's time I take a forum vacation....


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I wouldn't leave him loose in the house when your gone if he is marking. Have everything cleaned and deodorized to get rid of any past marking smells. Put him on a long lead in the house when your home. Any time you see the hind leg start to go up give a pull on the lead, and tell him what ever command you use to make him stop doing any unwanted behavior.
He will learn that its okay to mark outside but not in the house. Cash was not neutered till he was 3 and lived with 3 intact females. He never marked in the house but thought the garage was okay, because he didn't live in it.
It didn't take him long to figure out it was not okay by using the method above.

Ha Ha Ken 
Lucy likes to sniff companys butt too.
Its always good for a laugh.


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## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

Yeah, I was just surprised because I never viewed Otto as being "dominant." Maybe others who have met him have a different opinion or maybe I have the wrong understanding of dominance. I think it makes since that he was _interested _ in the girls that day though, the way he was following and sniffing Pacsi! I will just have to keep my eye on him and realise that he's reaching that age. If he bothers with them in the future I will just leash walk him for a while.

Ps. my apologies, *MilesMom*! Didn't mean to get off track of your original post!

If you do go ahead with neutering, you could take the opportunity to do a lot of heal work and training with your guys while he is recovering. That and extra marrow bones and bully sticks - and of course any kind of mind work will certainly tire him out! 

We were not allowed to take Otto to day care after he was 6 months old. We decided to take him out of the day care and keep him intact. I'm very happy we made that decision. We never considered daycare before we got him and manages just fine without it. That being said, our lives are changing and I'm heading back to school. We have found a day care that will take him for an extra fee, so when I start up with school I will take him there a couple days a week just so I can attend class and concentrate on my studies. For a while Otto was just getting on leash walks, majority of the summer actually except weekends. The mosquitos and horseflies were really terrible in our area this year and loved Otto so we didn't go on too many trail walks around here. 
We also let him stay out of his crate these days. He has never been a "chewer" so we trust that he won't get hurt being left unattended for a few hours. Like Miles, he only has access to two rooms, kitchen and living room.

Just our experience, every dog and every situation is different.


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

Thanks for the advice everyone. This is our first puppy so we are just trying to do the best we can for Miles. We are definitely going to consider postponing the appointment. 

Thanks OttosMama for the advice after neutering! Despite possible waiting now, neutering is definitely in Miles' future so we appreciate the feedback.


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## OttosMama (Oct 27, 2011)

WillowyndRanch said:


> Ask the Vet who's pushing the early spay/neuter for a money back guarantee. If your dog marks after another dog, or pees in a new home after he's had his bits removed you'd like your money back for the surgery, plus the cleaning bill. If he ever gets in a scuffle with another dog, you'd like your money back. I mean why not? It's the answer to every behavioural issue of a dog acting like a dog, isn't it?
> 
> He'll laugh you right out of his office. They know it doesn't change a thing, because a dog is a dog is a dog.


My boyfriend and I had a similar convo a couple of weeks ago. The idea of neutering/spaying being the magical answer reminds me of when doctors performed labotomies to "fix" mental problems in psychiatric patients. I think people need to accept that there is no magical solution, just that you get from the dog what you invest in the dog.

No problem MilesMom, just make sure you are comfotable with the decision and don't let the day care dictate how you treat/raise your puppy. I have heard time and again that not neutering dogs leads to aggression, marking, dominance, etc. The only valid reason for not allowing intact dogs to attend a day care is the possibility of unwanted pregnancies - but then again, aren't they supervising the dogs' play?


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

Miles has never been to dog day care, but I hope it is supervised! We are lucky to have lots of neighbors and friends who take Miles out mid day if one of us can't get home, but wanted to have the day care as an option just in case we have a busy day and want to make sure he gets enough exercise. Guess we will be waiting a little while longer to see if he likes it!


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

MilesMom,
I'm really happy you are considering WAITING. I have seen too many Hungarian Pointers that look like weak little pups for their whole lives. 

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/01/rethinking-spay-neuter-in-2011.html

excerpt:

SPAY/NEUTER AND HEALTH

Now that we have addressed the issue of pet overpopulation, let’s examine the claim that sterilization surgery promotes better health. While there are some benefits to sterilization, there are some drawbacks as well. 

Sterilization will naturally serve to prevent any unwanted litters. In bitches, spaying will greatly reduce the risk of breast cancer, pyometra, perianal fistula and cancers of the reproductive organs.5

Spay surgery itself carries a somewhat high rate (around 20%) of complications such as infection, hemorrhage and even death. Spaying significantly increases the rate of urinary incontinence in bitches….about 20-30% of all spayed bitches will eventually develop this problem. This is believed to be most likely caused by the lack of estrogen that results from being spayed.

Sterilization of males may reduce some unwanted sexual behaviors, but there are few other proven benefits to neutering a male dog. Testicular cancer is prevented, but the actual risk of that cancer is extremely low (<1%) among intact dogs. Contrary to popular belief, studies show that the risk of prostate cancer is actually HIGHER in neutered dogs than in their intact counterparts.

Several studies prove significant health risks associated with sterilization, particularly when done at an early age. The most problematic is a delayed closure of the bony growth plates. This results in an abnormal, “weedy” skeletal development that increases the incidence of orthopedic problems like hip dysplasia and patellar luxation. Working and performance dogs, if neutered before maturity, risk the inability to perform the jobs they were bred for.

But by far the most startling news to surface this year is the result of a study that shows that keeping ovaries to the age of six years or later is associated with a greater than 30% increase of lifespan in female Rottweilers.4 Similar studies in humans reinforce this finding.
A 30% longer lifespan means that you could have many additional years with your bitch simply by delaying spay surgery until middle-age or later.

Behavioral studies show that sterilization increases fearfulness, noise phobias and aggression. Other well-documented adverse health effects of de-sexing include increased risk of bone cancer, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and cognitive dysfunction in older pets. Sterilization confers an increased susceptibility to infectious disease, and also a higher incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines.

So there is no need to feel obligated to sterilize for health or welfare reasons. But what about the need to protect the puppies that we sell from unethical breeders?


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## AKGInspiration (Aug 23, 2012)

Lots of good advice here, and good reminders that reasons differ among owners about neutering... and that neutering is not the end all be all by any means.

I find marking a normal behavior and have met many dogs intact and altered that still mark with the best of them. My girl would put many boys to shame with how often she likes to mark. She even has her own unique style of walking on her two front feet as she pees. I have no doubt it is to further spread her scent. She is just cocky like that. Even pees up on snow banks if I let her. 

Which brings me to my next subject when we are working/heeling she is not to pee... how do i get her to not mark? I keep a hawk eye on her signals... limiting her sniffing is one of the easiest ways to do so. As if she is not sniffing it she is most likely not thinking of marking it. And whenever she has not been given permission to pee in designated areas I am correcting her marking on these walks. I can't make her shut the pipes off but I can show her it is unwanted. Catching yours in the act is the key in the house... as others said interrupt and show him it is inappropriate via any method you use.

I keep this same hawk eye when we are in other dog homes or locations where I feel she may feel the urge. Dog shows are notorious for having dogs peeing on people. It's hilarious how many handlers just don't seem to care, or bother to watch/prevent it. The hard part is when one dog starts it's hard to keep others from not adding to it. But having a clear command for eliminating and a clear reminder that that behavior they are thinking of it unwanted really helps. Dogs will always be dogs, especially when you least want it lol.

Now as far as what to do when you do choose to neuter him. As you approach the time to neuter you may want to consider the type of exercise you give.. here is an interesting article I read recently that explains it better than I. Totally applies to most Vizslas.. I have experienced this exercise monster myself with my Vizsla... 

http://networkedblogs.com/Bqgtp

Some great ideas in there to teach your dog how to better calm and adapt. i would say start to implement the crate again too. many get rid of this amazing tool as soon as the dog shows signs of growing out of typical puppy stuff. there are many many advantages to keeping a crate in the usual routine for dogs. * WillowWynd *wrote a great post on this topic itself. Many good points to think about.

http://willowyndranch.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-crate.html

Good luck with your planning!


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## Suliko (Sep 17, 2011)

Yup, my Sophie marks all the time on our walks! Little Pacsi not so much. 

Ottosmama, I wouldn't worry too much. I really don't think it was a dominant behavior on Otto's behalf....knowing him  But with the extreme interest in Pacsi, I'm thinking maybe hormones... She's 8 months now, and could start her first heat sometime soon. That's just my theory. Since Sophie is spayed, this is my first experience with an intact bitch


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

Marking is not a problem for us :-[ 
He marks outside but never indoors, never on humans.

Humping is a non issue, also. Only attempts it after he ate dinner ??? He is 18 months now. Will it become worse in the future?
Or perhaps it's something in the way we connect with him, I lived with a GSD before.


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## raps702 (Dec 19, 2010)

Axel is 20 months still intact. He only marks outside on walks, never in our house. The only reason we were thinking of getting him neutered next month is because of a dog service (doggy day care) we were thinking of taking him to soon, they pick your dog up at your house(9am) and take him to a 10 acre (free range) farm and let the dogs run free and supervised most of the day, and then drop your dog off at 4pm. We wanted to do this more for the socialization skills that Axel seems to need more with other dogs. The second reason is we are expecting our first baby in November, and just assumed having him neutered may make things a little easier with a newborn? Just my own opinion, I may be wrong I have never had a baby before with a dog. (never had a baby or a dog before)


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

raps702,

I'd agree with you on this. You gave him 20 months to develop.

Good for you. 

For your lifestyle change it might be the best choice in our current society.

Best wishes,
RBD


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

Doing the right thing ! you waited for development - it may or may not improve marking


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