# Dangers of raw feeding



## Rummy

We have recently introduced our 6 month old V to raw food. She loves it and really seems to enjoy her new diet.

However I recently read an article quoting different vets. In the article one quote mentioned how dangerous raw food diets are too humans and that they had seen two deaths as a direct result of feeding their pets a raw food diet.

We have two young children so this has been playing on my mind a little. Does anyone know how true this is?

Cheers.


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## Vida

I feed raw and I've never had a problem.
I buy the mince/ tripe/ chicken or fish blocks frozen from my local farm shop butcher.Also marrow bones. Chicken and chops I buy fresh once a week.
I take the blocks out of the freezer at night and leave it covered,it's ready to feed at 6am. They get two each for breakfast plus a raw egg at least twice a week.
I take them out at 9,and when we get home around 12 they each get a marrow bone ( 3 or 4 times a week) for an hour. They have the bones on a towel or vet bed in the kitchen or garden ,or sometimes in the car. I always wash their bowls up straight away,mop the floor if any spillages happen. I throw used bones away ,they don't lay around. I wash the towel and vet bed daily. We leave for more walks about 1.30, at dinner time they have some veg leftovers,maybe a raw carrot.
If you follow a solid clean regime and your kids aren't in contact with raw meat I don't see how they can catch salmonella or other nasties? My kids never go near the dogs when they're eating.
We're all so scared of germs ,how did we ever survive?! ???
I do anti-bac the work surfaces though


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## redbirddog

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/06/dogs-stomach-food-and-salmonella.html

Hope this helps.

RBD


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## WillowyndRanch

I don't intend to jump into the fray again, only to offer that UC Davis Veterinarians discourage RAW feeding, the American Veterinary Medicine Association has a written position against it, the American Animal Health Association has a written position against it, the National Association of State Public Health Veterinarians are against it, etc, etc. 

https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/121015l.aspx 
(please note this is from a Professional Veterinary organization, not a blog or website set up specifically as a special interest page to support or denigrate RAW feeding)

“Based on *overwhelming scientific evidence*, AAHA does not advocate or endorse feeding pets any raw or dehydrated nonsterilized foods, including treats that are of animal origin,” the AAHA position states.

I also read something recently from a Veterinarian that had two Owners die and others fall significantly ill - allegedly related to salmonella poisoning and the fed RAW.

I have enough challenges maintaining sanitation and bleaching play yards, pens, bowls, crates, bedding, etc. I don't need to intentionally add any risk of additional pathogens when there are balanced nutritional and relatively safer alternatives (which of course RAW supporters will now jump on the attack and wish to debate), but that's my choice and decision. 

Good luck in making yours. 

Ken


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## Rudy

All my dogs eat wild game will flex with any or all

(cooked)

Salmon in buckets 
Buffalo
Elk
Moose
Elk
Deer
Duck and tons more

Dog food in general is junk and Vets some great most no little about real pure foods vits and supplements

western meds are massive side effects for sheep

Mother God Humbles all of it to me


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## Vida

How do you take your steak Ken?


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## datacan

Medium rare, thanks for asking. 

Went to small, expensive French restaurant with my friend. I ordered my stake well done... suddenly, the everyone became quiet and looked toward us. 
"You're not French, are you", said the waitress. 

Next time I'll google "table manners at French bistro" before deciding to pop in and spend $200.


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## WillowyndRanch

Vida said:


> How do you take your steak Ken?


I'm a dog trainer. The best I can afford is bulk hamburger, well cooked.
Ken


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## Rudy

Buffalo burgers are great 

far more protein and almost zero fat

next to beef


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## Rummy

WillowyndRanch,
That's exactly what I've been concerned about. 
So to everyone else who does raw feed. Do you all cook, or part cook your food? Or pup has been eating completely raw food... For now.


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## born36

Rummy said:


> WillowyndRanch,
> That's exactly what I've been concerned about.
> So to everyone else who does raw feed. Do you all cook, or part cook your food? Or pup has been eating completely raw food... For now.


The worst thing you could do is part cook!! Either all in or not at all. 

My boy eats Raw. 

For every study against it there are plenty for it. Many of the Vet associations that publish these studies are funded or sponsored by dry dog food companies. 

You get dry dog food recalls sometimes due to...yep you guessed salmonella poisoning. There are dangers in any feed. My boy is on a dry diet as he had horrible allergies and my Vet...yep you read it right said that a Raw diet often helps. Sure enough he went from a thin sick boy with lots of bumps all over his body to a power house of pup. 

Main thing really is that if you feed Raw be careful and don't leave raw meat laying about the house and always wash your hands. You can get infections from taking a poo or piss and not washing your hands so difference here really. 

Also don't feed you pup just raw meat include some carb sources and veg too. Lucky for us we feed him from a company in the UK that sells complete raw food in 500g or 1kg packs. Here is a link. http://www.naturalinstinct.com/ It is all human grade food.


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## lyra

WillowyndRanch said:


> I don't intend to jump into the fray again.....


I love posts that start like that.....and then jump back into the fray with a long detailed post complete with references ;D


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## Vida

I warn you this happens if you feed raw.... ;D


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## born36

Vida said:


> I warn you this happens if you feed raw.... ;D


Ha!!! 

That explains why my pup does this all time. It isn't that he is dead he just wants to be a turtle.


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## Vida

Natural instinct smells awful! And it's grey :-\
If you ask your butcher they can supply you good bloody meat blocks at a fraction of the cost of natural instinct.


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## born36

Vida said:


> Natural instinct smells awful! And it's grey :-\
> If you ask your butcher they can supply you good bloody meat blocks at a fraction of the cost of natural instinct.


Funny you say this as my neighbor is a butcher. So I do get lots of stuff off him. Mac is limited to only two meats though. Duck and Turkey. I get the Duck off natural instinct. I am surprised you have had a bad experience with them as so far I always get good quality already frozen product off them.


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## WillowyndRanch

I _really_ didn't intend to get into this again, but I'm like a moth to a flame... 



born36 said:


> For every study against it there are plenty for it.


I'd love to read this plethora of studies, because there are dozens that raise caution flags. Can you provide us with a scientific study that proves the efficacy and health benefits please? (other than the one THEORETICAL opinion by Prochaska and Piekutowski that is oft touted but their summary of their review of medical journals states "the role of enzyme synergy has not been studied in sufficient detail to predict its biological significance". I'm not asking for a blog post or a web page that promotes RAW, but an actual true Level 1,2, 3 or 4 Veterinary study.



born36 said:


> Many of the Vet associations that publish these studies are funded or sponsored by dry dog food companies.


Ah.. the old conspiracy theory inuendo. Unable to prove but don't we all just find it juicy and maybe just believable enough to go "hmmm... big bad EVIL dog food company corporate villians in cahoots with all these money grubbing Veterinarians and their associations..." 



born36 said:


> You get dry dog food recalls sometimes due to...yep you guessed salmonella poisoning.


Absolutely true. And the recall is either because their quality control discovered there may be salmonella discovered in their product or dogs/people were getting ill. It seems it is _expected_ in RAW, and that's ok though. 

An Abstract by the Canadian Veterinary Journal:

_"There are several studies that document the presence of infectious agents in raw foods and the potential for contaminating or shedding these agents in the pet’s environment. A recent study (15) analyzed 240 samples from 20 commercially prepared raw meat dog diets (beef, lamb, chicken, or turkey), 24 samples from 2 commercial dry dog foods, and 24 samples from 2 commercial canned foods. The commercial foods were collected on 4 different dates, 2 mo apart.
Almost *6%* of the raw food diets were *positive* for Salmonella, while *none * of the conventional diets were positive. 
80% of raw chicken diets were culture positive for Salmonella serovars, while none of the commercial dry foods were positive. *Thirty percent of the stool samples of the raw chicken eaters were also positive*; the *commercial diet consumers’ stools were negative * _ 
(15. Strohmeyer RA, Morley PS, Hyatt DR, Dargatz DA, Scorza AV, Lappin MR. Evaluation of bacterial and protozoal contamination of commercially available raw meat diets for dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006;228:537–542.)



born36 said:


> Main thing really is that if you feed Raw be careful and don't leave raw meat laying about the house and always wash your hands.


The main problem is that introducing known pathogens such as e-coli and Salmonella into one's living environment, especially with small children who are more susceptible. It's not just the food prep areas, it's the shedding and the problem that these pathogens are becoming more resistant.

_"As there appears to be strong evidence that raw food can contain Salmonella, it is vitally important, if feeding a raw meat diet to a pet, that hygiene of the food preparation area and the feeding bowls be diligently maintained. This may, however, be difficult to achieve. A recent study found that standard methods of cleaning and disinfecting food bowls were minimally effective at eliminating Salmonella (35). This included soaking with bleach and cleaning in a dishwasher."_(35. Weese JS, Rousseau J. Survival of Salmonella Copenhagen in food bowls following contamination with experimentally inoculated raw meat: Effects of time, cleaning, and disinfection. Can Vet J. 2006;47:887–889.)

_"An outbreak of disease due to multi-drug resistant Salmonella Typhimurium in 4 animal facilities has been reported (21,22). Illness occurred in employees, clients, and animals that were present in 3 different companion animal facilities and 1 animal shelter (21,22). Eighteen humans and 36 animals were fecal culture positive for Salmonella. Some of the animals died. Equally disturbing was that some animals in the facilities and in clients’/employees’ homes cultured positive but were asymptomatic. Those affected clinically included veterinary staff, pet owners, children, and other pets. Although the diet fed to the pets was not discussed, the study demonstrated that Salmonella can cause disease in pets and that humans in contact are at risk."_
(21. Wright JG, Tengelsen LA, Smith KE, et al. Multidrug-resistant Salmonella typhimurium in four animal facilities. Emerg Infect Dis. 2005;11:1235–1241. [PMC free article][PubMed]
22. Canadian Communicable Disease Report. Outbreaks of multidrug-resistant Salmonella typhimurium associated with veterinary facilities-Idaho, Minnesota and Washington 1999. CCDR. 2001. [Last accessed May 19, 2009]. p. 27.)

Ken


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## Vida

As long as you follow meat handling and hygiene rules,how is it unsafe?
Butchers handle meat and they don't get sick, well I've never heard of one catching salmonella etc.. ???


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## threefsh

Unless your children are going to play with the raw meat or pup's feces you should be fine. Keep your counters clean and feed the pup using a stainless steel bowl that is cleaned with hot water and soap after every feeding.

Our pup had a horrific knee injury last year that went septic, and the vets said it almost spread to her entire body (they referred to her as the "septic puppy" when my hubby brought her in for a follow-up exam). She refused her kibble, wet food, cooked meat.... the *only* thing she would eat was raw "Primal" forumula food. It truly saved her life. I don't know if she'd be here today if we hadn't tried raw with her. We transitioned her back to kibble, but she is living proof that raw is a very healthy, nutritious way to feed a pup.


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## WillowyndRanch

Vida said:


> As long as you follow meat handling and hygiene rules,how is it unsafe?
> Butchers handle meat and they don't get sick, well I've never heard of one catching salmonella etc.. ???


The handling of the meat is only part of the equation. Since it is repeatedly and undeniably proven that there is significantly increased likelihood that RAW diets contain pathogens such as salmonella and e-coli than cooked or kibble, including resistant strains and the preparation that typically kills these pathogens (cooking) is not present in the RAW diet, the pathogens are then often passed through the system and spread in fecal matter.

Butchers wear gloves, aprons, booties, etc. , are foodsafe trained, and keep things at proper temeperatures. They sterilize the entire environment utilizing StarSan or similar Industrial grade sterilants that we don't in the home and don't have kids playing in the butcher shop. Hot water and soap do not kill many pathogens. Bleach solutions work much better, and Sanitizing agents better yet. 

"not playing with the Pup's feces" is a bit misleading. Do kids play in the same yard as the dog or is it totally separate? EVERY time the dog evacuates it's bowels, is the area be 100% cleared of the organic fecal matter and then the area sanitized to kill off microscopic "shed" organisms so there is no chance a kid steps or crawls through a shed site? Is the home sanitized to a level that if a scrap of food dropped to the floor where little Jimmy is crawling around at Mom's feet he won't put a finger on a shed site? Did Dad step on a pile while cleaning the yard and then just wipe his shoe off in the grass and walk through the house, or did he strip off his shoes and sanitize them? I know this will seem folly and be regarded as "how did we all survive the germs". I'm not a germophobe as much as people might think, but infection control is a critically important aspect of what we do and people with a dog or two just don't fully comprehend how quickly and simply pathogens travel. 

I understand there are many people who feel RAW has done their dogs a world of good, and that's great. However, What the OP was asking "Is there danger". I've answered that question as honestly and openly with as much SCIENTIFIC reference backing the answer as possible. The only responses are it worked great for me and I'm doing fine, which is wonderful and I'm happy for you; it is not a measurable, scientific statement, rather an opinion.
Multiple Health organizations have taken formal positions on the matter after reviewing multiple case and research studies. Their answer is Yes, there is increased RISK in feeding Raw to the family of illness. Does that mean every person who feeds RAW will keel over, of course not - it is merely stating that the RISK is higher. Children and elderly are typically more susceptible as their immune systems are not as developed or as strong respectively. By commenting that preparation areas etc Must be sanitized, this in effect endorses there is more Risk; knowing the risk is there and having to take extra precautions to attempt to reduce that risk.

Have it it, I'm out.

Ken


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## datacan

Although mine love RAW, doesn't mean they are aware if its the best choice. 
They also love to chew leather boots and tree limbs and the girl loves cat poop... Does it mean I should let them do it just because they like it?

Traditionally, Vizsla was never fed RAW! Cooked yes, RAW no. 
This has been depicted in old paintings, even. Vizsla like dog at the side of the table, owner throws a piece of cooked meat to the dog. 
Can't find the painting online but if I do, I'll post.


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## harrigab

came back from the shoot last week with 5 pheasants, a woodcock, 1 black lab and 1 V in the boot (trunk)...when we dropped my mate and his black lab off at home we were minus 1 pheasant, apart fromt head wings and feet. Ruby was fine, Blue the lab was farting like **** and $4itting through the eye of a needle the next day....wonder which dog got the bird?


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## threefsh

harrigab said:


> came back from the shoot last week with 5 pheasants, a woodcock, 1 black lab and 1 V in the boot (trunk)...when we dropped my mate and his black lab off at home we were minus 1 pheasant, apart fromt head wings and feet. Ruby was fine, Blue the lab was farting like **** and $4itting through the eye of a needle the next day....wonder which dog got the bird?


Haha! That reminds me... my dad heard "crunching" noises coming from outside and went to investigate. Riley had discovered the leftovers of a hawk's tasty pigeon meal and was happily munching away. Only the head was left when he figured out what was going on. No bad side effects here... Riley seemed to enjoy her raw pigeon snack.


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## born36

harrigab said:


> came back from the shoot last week with 5 pheasants, a woodcock, 1 black lab and 1 V in the boot (trunk)...when we dropped my mate and his black lab off at home we were minus 1 pheasant, apart fromt head wings and feet. Ruby was fine, Blue the lab was farting like **** and $4itting through the eye of a needle the next day....wonder which dog got the bird?


Mac has caught a collared dove and squirrel before. He has ate both. No squirts to report.


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## born36

WillowyndRanch said:


> I _really_ didn't intend to get into this again, but I'm like a moth to a flame...
> 
> 
> 
> born36 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For every study against it there are plenty for it.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd love to read this plethora of studies, because there are dozens that raise caution flags. Can you provide us with a scientific study that proves the efficacy and health benefits please? (other than the one THEORETICAL opinion by Prochaska and Piekutowski that is oft touted but their summary of their review of medical journals states "the role of enzyme synergy has not been studied in sufficient detail to predict its biological significance". I'm not asking for a blog post or a web page that promotes RAW, but an actual true Level 1,2, 3 or 4 Veterinary study.
> 
> 
> 
> born36 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many of the Vet associations that publish these studies are funded or sponsored by dry dog food companies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah.. the old conspiracy theory inuendo. Unable to prove but don't we all just find it juicy and maybe just believable enough to go "hmmm... big bad EVIL dog food company corporate villians in cahoots with all these money grubbing Veterinarians and their associations..."
> 
> 
> 
> born36 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You get dry dog food recalls sometimes due to...yep you guessed salmonella poisoning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Absolutely true. And the recall is either because their quality control discovered there may be salmonella discovered in their product or dogs/people were getting ill. It seems it is _expected_ in RAW, and that's ok though.
> 
> An Abstract by the Canadian Veterinary Journal:
> 
> _"There are several studies that document the presence of infectious agents in raw foods and the potential for contaminating or shedding these agents in the pet’s environment. A recent study (15) analyzed 240 samples from 20 commercially prepared raw meat dog diets (beef, lamb, chicken, or turkey), 24 samples from 2 commercial dry dog foods, and 24 samples from 2 commercial canned foods. The commercial foods were collected on 4 different dates, 2 mo apart.
> Almost *6%* of the raw food diets were *positive* for Salmonella, while *none * of the conventional diets were positive.
> 80% of raw chicken diets were culture positive for Salmonella serovars, while none of the commercial dry foods were positive. *Thirty percent of the stool samples of the raw chicken eaters were also positive*; the *commercial diet consumers’ stools were negative * _
> (15. Strohmeyer RA, Morley PS, Hyatt DR, Dargatz DA, Scorza AV, Lappin MR. Evaluation of bacterial and protozoal contamination of commercially available raw meat diets for dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006;228:537–542.)
> 
> 
> 
> born36 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Main thing really is that if you feed Raw be careful and don't leave raw meat laying about the house and always wash your hands.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The main problem is that introducing known pathogens such as e-coli and Salmonella into one's living environment, especially with small children who are more susceptible. It's not just the food prep areas, it's the shedding and the problem that these pathogens are becoming more resistant.
> 
> _"As there appears to be strong evidence that raw food can contain Salmonella, it is vitally important, if feeding a raw meat diet to a pet, that hygiene of the food preparation area and the feeding bowls be diligently maintained. This may, however, be difficult to achieve. A recent study found that standard methods of cleaning and disinfecting food bowls were minimally effective at eliminating Salmonella (35). This included soaking with bleach and cleaning in a dishwasher."_(35. Weese JS, Rousseau J. Survival of Salmonella Copenhagen in food bowls following contamination with experimentally inoculated raw meat: Effects of time, cleaning, and disinfection. Can Vet J. 2006;47:887–889.)
> 
> _"An outbreak of disease due to multi-drug resistant Salmonella Typhimurium in 4 animal facilities has been reported (21,22). Illness occurred in employees, clients, and animals that were present in 3 different companion animal facilities and 1 animal shelter (21,22). Eighteen humans and 36 animals were fecal culture positive for Salmonella. Some of the animals died. Equally disturbing was that some animals in the facilities and in clients’/employees’ homes cultured positive but were asymptomatic. Those affected clinically included veterinary staff, pet owners, children, and other pets. Although the diet fed to the pets was not discussed, the study demonstrated that Salmonella can cause disease in pets and that humans in contact are at risk."_
> (21. Wright JG, Tengelsen LA, Smith KE, et al. Multidrug-resistant Salmonella typhimurium in four animal facilities. Emerg Infect Dis. 2005;11:1235–1241. [PMC free article][PubMed]
> 22. Canadian Communicable Disease Report. Outbreaks of multidrug-resistant Salmonella typhimurium associated with veterinary facilities-Idaho, Minnesota and Washington 1999. CCDR. 2001. [Last accessed May 19, 2009]. p. 27.)
> 
> Ken
Click to expand...

I am not going to waste half my day linking in and writing on this. 

Rummy there are strong opinions on both sides of the fence. What my post earlier was meant for you to understand is that risk and benefits with any way that you feed your dog. The main thing is to do what works and keeps you and your pup healthy.


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## iwant2fish

WillowyndRanch said:


> I also read something recently from a Veterinarian that had two Owners die and others fall significantly ill - allegedly related to salmonella poisoning and the fed RAW.


Here is the actual quote. 
_
25. “Some people are really into a raw-food diet for pets, but it’s a huge public health hazard. Think about it: You have raw meat, you’re touching it, your dog touches it, and then your dog goes and licks the baby. I’ve had two patients die and two patients get really sick from it.”—Amber Andersen, DVM, a vet at Point Vicente Animal Hospital in Rancho Palos Verdes, California._

Assuming that her patients are either dogs or cats, I see no mention of people getting sick or dying from raw feeding. The AVMA admits that they have no record of any person getting sick (and certainly not dying) from feeding their pets raw diets, but they have many from those who feed kibble. If she is referring to patients’ human owners and had actual proof that they either got sick or died, I would assume she would report her findings to the AVMA immediately as she is a member of their organization.


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## WillowyndRanch

My mistake, I guess I interpreted the lick the baby and in my mind it was the person, not the dog. The quote still illustrates the hazard. 



iwant2fish said:


> The AVMA admits that they have no record of any person getting sick (and certainly not dying) from feeding their pets raw diets, but they have many from those who feed kibble.


I wouldn't think it would be AVMA's purview to track Human illness. I would think that would be under the CDC's purview. Could you please provide a link for the AVMA's numbers of human patients falling ill from feeding kibble? I can't seem to verify that statement. 

Ken


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## R E McCraith

Love kibble & beer mixed for my morning meal when hunting - love sushi & steak tartar at the end of the days hunting - still alive - about where this post is going LOL


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## lyra

Hearing peoples personal experience is always interesting and sometimes useful but for something like this I would always place much more weight on properly conducted research than the person who tells me "I've smoked all life and it never did me any harm".

Thanks Ken for "wasting half your day linking in and writing on this" and I hope the moth didn't get too badly burnt


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## hotmischief

Which is more dangerous - kibble or raw? Why I ask this is because you can get salmonella from kibble. There have been several cases in the past year with kibble and the withdraw of two major products from the market because the kibble was contaminated with salmonella, and one member lost her dog. I have not heard of any members dog suffering from salmonella as a result of being fed raw.

I have fed raw food to my dogs for the past 40years and have not had a problem, however that doesn't mean there isn't a risk. 

Whatever you feed you need to practice good hygiene. I buy my raw meat in 1kg frozen plastic boxes (same as Born36), defrost it overnight. I use a fork to dish it out with, so I never handle it. I was my hands and the surfaces etc afterwards - just the same as if I were preparing to cook steak for my dinner.

You just need to be sensible which ever food you feed, including your own!!! 

In the UK a lot of vets recommend feeding raw (not mine). Natural Instinct is owned and was founded by an American vet and the number of times I have been in there and a new customer has come in and said "my vet recommended you".


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## hotmischief

Vida - I amazed that you have had grey, smelly meat from Natural Instinct, i hope you let them know. Like Born36, I have only had excellent quality, no smell, and always nice and red.

I would love to get it from the butchers but really don't want to be messing around with raw meat every day. I love the convenience of the frozen prepared boxes that natural instinct sell.

Whatever you feed has to suit your life style and pocket as well as your dog. 

I saw Born36's Mac last weekend (he posted pictures last week) and I have to say he is one fabulous looking dog. My wirehaired rug rat is 13 months now and has been fed NI for 8 months and he has also grown into a great looking dog, just needs to fill out a bit more.


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## Vida

Heather, I need to pickup some food today so I'll pick up a pack of NI and have a look. ???
Maybe I just got a bad box??? 
I took this pic of Indi an hour ago...
I think he's a good example of the raw diet


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## iwant2fish

WillowyndRanch said:


> I wouldn't think it would be AVMA's purview to track Human illness. I would think that would be under the CDC's purview. Could you please provide a link for the AVMA's numbers of human patients falling ill from feeding kibble? I can't seem to verify that statement.


Sure, here is the link https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/FAQs/Pages/Raw-Pet-Foods-and-the-AVMA-Policy-FAQ.aspx from their FAQ page on raw feeding. 

Here's the section if you want to avoid a lot of scrolling.
Q: Have cases of human illness been associated with commercially processed kibble diets?
A: Yes, there have been cases of human salmonellosis associated with commercially prepared diets.
From 2006-2008, there was a multistate outbreak of Salmonella enterica serotype Schwarzengrund infections in humans. A total of 79 cases from 21 states were reported. The source of infection was identified as dry dog food produced at a manufacturing plant in Pennsylvania. This investigation was the first to identify contaminated dry dog food as a source of human Salmonella infections
In spring 2012, an outbreak of Salmonella Infantis was traced to a Diamond Foods production facility in Gaston, SC. A total of 49 individuals (47 individuals in 20 states and two individuals in Canada) were infected with the outbreak strain. Seventeen brands representing >30,000 tons of dry dog and cat food produced at the facility were recalled as a result of the outbreak.


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## hotmischief

Vida,

I hope you don't get the NI with tripe in it - they do smell and look grey!!! They look grey because tripe is grey. There is nothing wrong with, but I can't cope with it, if you get my meaning and it is also very expensive.

I use the duck as my boy has minor allergies, but the chicken, lamb, turkey, etc are all nice and pink and no smell. Let us know how the new box is.

Your dog looks fantastic. I am hoping Boris will look the same + wire in 6 months time!!!


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## Vida

Apologies!! :
I bought nature diet that smelt so bad, not Natural instinct!
Sorry. I got it wrong....


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## hotmischief

That's interesting as last week I bought a frozen bag of fruit and vegetables by Nature's Diet - I like to give both boys extra vegetables in particular our elderly Dane. I thought the frozen bag would be good for those lazy days that i don't cook.

Well I defrosted half the packet and I have to say it looked rather revolting, but hey ho the dogs liked it. Unfortunately they were sick and guess what came up - yep all this revolting brown vegetables. I will be sticking to fresh vegetables in future.


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## Vida

I gave the dogs AG this am and I swear I can see the difference by looking at their shape. It's like us eating lots of bread and bloating ???
Look at the difference in his shape this morning...


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