# Is your Vizsla a natural retriever?



## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

My V has always had the desire to retrieve. Water land off the boat he is a machine.. Loves to please. If its cold he will think about a water retrieve, then do it. He is only good for one in the cold.


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## NeverGiveUpRAC (Aug 27, 2012)

Unfortunately, Cole will not bring anything back to me. He picks everything up and carries things everywhere! I tried to train him to retrieve but he looses interest.

:

I thought dogs just...DID that!? Lol  Guess I should have gotten a pointer/retriever! ;D


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## lilyloo (Jun 20, 2012)

Ruby brings things back to us but we have a hard time getting her to drop. She wants to play keep away or tug of war. She will drop if we have a treat in our hands when we say drop. Little stinker.


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## dmak (Jul 25, 2012)

Kauzy will play fetch for hours in and out of water, but like zigzag he's not the biggest fan of cold water. With ducks in the winter, he's good for about 4-5 retrievals before he's done


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## littlelulu (Jun 21, 2011)

Lulu is obsessed with retrieving balls on land and in water. Although I believe she has lots of natural desire to do so, we also worked quite hard on it for a while before she realized that you get to run after it again if you bring it back first . Since she caught on, all she wants to do is fetch. If I'm feeling lazy, I can take her to an open field and just throw a ball or frisbee until she tires (we usually add drills and variety to our outings, but hey, some days you just want to stand there and throw a ball ). In general, she is a princess (i.e. won't step on wet grass to pee), but if retrieving is involved she will go into any sort of terrain. She generally doesn't retrieve to hand, but usually drops things near our feet, she usually doesn't want to hold on to anything. I think she figures the faster she spits it out the faster we'll throw it again. She's right .


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Riley will retrieve anything... except birds. : She figures once she's gotten a hold of one she'd better not give it up or she won't get it back! Yeah... that's something we need to work on. 

She will bring birds within about 10 feet of me, but that's as close as she'll get for now!


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

PIKE is my 4th V - all of them out of the box do it all - training - YES - but they all came out of HUNTERS - makes life easy!


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## Darcy1311 (May 27, 2012)

Darcy retrieves canvas dummies with no problem, but she killed a rabbit the other day but she could not manage to retrieve it for some reason, I think she was put off with the feel of it..


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

On hot days with fresh killed chucker I find that Rojo has some issues with the feathers making his mouth dry. He will only carry the bird so far. It's something about the feathers he gets kinda puckerd.


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## VbarK Vizslas (Jan 31, 2012)

Odin retrieves dummies and "his" ball. He doesn't like tennis balls. He will not pick up a bird. But he will pick up a dummy covered with wings. He drops the ball at my feet, if he drops it before it gets to me I tell him bring it and he will get it and drop at my feet. He is a retrieving fool for his ball. He will track it in the air and grab it on the first bounce if I throw it short. If I throw it and it hides in the hay he will find it. Then he goes and cools off in the hose. He is awesome. Except for the not picking up the bird-aww just a work in progress.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Cash retrieved but it was not reliably to hand. He would retrive anything you shot but could care less about bumpers. That was fixed with a trainer this year.
June is a natural retriever and always has been.
I have pictures of her retrieving a bumper with quail wing attached at 8 weeks. She pointed and retrieved the first live quail she ever laid eyes on. She is a happy retriever and starts the tail/body wagging when she is bringing it to you. She knows she won't get the rub on the side and the atta girl praise if its not brought all the way in. She lives for attention and I would never dream of removing anything from her mouth without praising her first.
Lucy my daughters dog lives for the hunt. She cares nothing about finding or retrieving dead game birds. To her it holds no challenge. I haven't spent anytime trying to correct this because one of the other dogs is more than willing to do the retrieving work, and one day I know my daughter will want to take Lucy to live with her.


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

This was are hike yesterday. 

http://youtu.be/j0rZk35U74s


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

Dare I say there is no such thing as a natural retriever. Just ask the Retriever folks who force fetch every one of their dogs. Before anyone gets upset with me please hear me out. By my statement I am talking from a hunting stand point utilizing the "fetch" command which I will briefly cover in this post. I do realize there are many V's and pointing breeds that have a natural propensity to retrieve like the retrieving breeds, but while hunting or being a gamer (i.e. field trials, hunt test, agility, etc) there is a major difference between a dog who most of the time goes and gets the bird or every time goes and gets the bird because it was commanded to do so. As an outdoorsman, I do not hunt to shoot animals but I hunt for my table. Simply said, I don't kill to kill, what I take I eat. A hunting or trial dog will be required to retrieve a downed bird in a hedge row littered with thorns, in a pond, a bird that was shot by an over zealous gunner or the dog that quits on the dread blind retrieve. This just doesn't happen with a properly forced fetched dog. A dog in a master hunt test must do a retrieve and a quality one at that to get its passing score. A field trial dog in a retrieving stake that is retrieve on course or in a bird field must do a retrieve to get its placement. There are so many scenarios where a “natural retriever” fails to get the bird that one time! as Murphy's law will always illustrate that one time is when you are going to get the Blue ribbon or that trophy **** bird. There is nothing worse than paying several hundred dollars or several thousand to go to a trial, a hunt test, or on an out of state hunt to be let down by your best pal. This is why retriever breed people force fetch their dogs and so should pointing breed people. Additionally, once a dog is force fetched it becomes a very different dog(in a good way) He sees his owner forever as alpha and subsequently learns faster also the bond between owner/handler and dog are enhanced significantly.
That being said my current male when he was a pup would retrieve bumpers and tennis balls most of the time but soon grew bored with it. He is force fetched it took me 3 weeks with a gentle process and he is currently an Amateur Field Champion, master hunter, Grand show Champion and he is sitting 3 points from his Field Championship (that is my problem I work on Saturdays and open stakes run mostly then). My young female derby dog will retrieve anything you throw and can't get enough of it. She could fit that so called "natural retriever" label. Soon she will be force fetched as well for the reasons stated above. The force fetch as previously stated is done by all retriever people and serious hunters and gamers. Think of fetch not as play, but as a command like kennel or come. It's not an ask it's a do! (in a nice way with a V of course) Fetch means to take whatever object (mainly a downed bird) and go pick it up, bring it back to me, hold it until I ask for it with my hand by standing directly in front of me and waiting(not drop it on the way in or 5 feet from me and don't play ring around the rosy). The last part of fetch is to release the bird on my "give it" command, not turn your head but put it right there in a bragging rights gun dog fashion Training a dog to any command is a repetitive process and I have a saying 5-10 minutes a day, twice a day, everyday and your best friend will be learning the command you are teaching him in no time. I really find a good quality well socialized Vizsla to be one of quickest learning dogs that I know. I only wrote this post because i saw a common theme that many of the dogs would play fetch with sticks and balls only to not want to pick up a downed bird. I too had this same issue early on with Vizslas and force fetching them has proved to be the difference. In my opinion its worth every effort.

Joe


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## R E McCraith (Nov 24, 2011)

for PIKE on live birds the command for him is DEAD BIRD on release - this is the only time I use the command - he knows he will stay in the field till the bird is found and brought to hand - if it takes 20min I could careless - VVe waste nothing!


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

Joe would you FF this dog?
http://youtu.be/lcc4W5K2q3o


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

zigzag said:


> Joe would you FF this dog?
> http://youtu.be/lcc4W5K2q3o


Yes 100% I would FF that dog. He did a great job no doubt, but even the owner had his doubts on the dog doing it or not. It is removing the doubt i am talking about.

Keep in my dogs are my pets first and sleep in my bed, but they are competition dogs. Also i love to watch the artistry of a high quality gun dog work its magic in a field. If they were just strictly pets it really wouldn't matter if they were FF

Joe


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

I apreciate your opinion. He is 14 months and I am on the fence with FF.


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

zigzag said:


> I appreciate your opinion. He is 14 months and I am on the fence with FF.


Well thank you!, Let me guess was that you and your dog in the video?


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## zigzag (Oct 4, 2011)

Yes my dog. I have only one dog, I know he is not the hard charging V that I see my hunting friends with. BUT his noes speaks for itself.


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

Very cool. Enjoy it. There is no rush to FF. push him but only when he is having fun. If it is not fun. Nobody wants to do it. The males seem to mature slower. Sorta like us ;D. My female is just finding her run at 16 months. She just had two really nice derby stakes the past two weekends. I am very excited about her potential. Her point is amazing. Here is a pic of her on point at seven months. If my wife wasn't pregnant and due in two weeks or any day really. I would be heading to Michigan for the vizsla nationals that starts Monday instead of sitting home on a Friday night on a vizslas forum, lol


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

Ruby will retrieve, not always to hand though.


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I know some retriever trainers. My nephew is one and a friend breeds and trains Labs. Jcbuch is right for the most part when it comes to force fetch and retrievers. He went with the point that most people have. You don't want the dog to start handling the bird incorrectly during the trial or hunt season. Some never want the dog to handle a bird until its force fetched. The reasoning is they never get to handle it incorrectly and build bad habits that have to be fixed.
The other side of the argument is that force fetch hides hard mouthed and strong willed dogs. One breeder does not force fetch dogs that she keeps for her breeding line. Her breeding is for dogs with tons of drive, a willingness to please and a soft mouth. You would be hard pressed to see any difference in her dogs and FF dogs.
This is where we get to the difference between retrievers and vizsla. Retrievers can be FF at 6-9 month old. Vs need to have had time in the field on birds, and time to mature before being FF. I don't think I would FF a V under 2 years old. I would work on Hold and Give.


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## jcbuch (Oct 15, 2009)

Ill agree with Texasred on the vizsla taking a little longer before you do FF or a lot of things vs a retriever. You cannot put a lot of training pressure on a young V like a lab or a gsp. As to the hard mouthed dogs being hidden by force fetch, I could see how that could correct a low percentage of hard mouthed dogs, but a hard mouth dog is difficult to fix. People gave a complete misconception on FF being hard on a dog probably due to the force word. Any training done incorrectly is hard on a dog. As far as dogs learning to fetch incorrectly and needing to be force fetched. I only allow my dogs to get a bird early on to access their prey drive and encourage it. Once we are past that. It's strictly pointing and allowing a a little chase on good flying birds. Pigeons or chukar preferably as they fly and don't get caught. Pigeons preferred as they are cheap or free and we have homers to use. I'll shot over a dog a couple of times and allow a retrieve right before I get rdy to FF. this is done to again reinforce pray drive and like a last hurray before the pressure of FF is turned on. similar to a bachelor or bachelorette party before marriage. Again I believe all dogs should be FF. for reason I stated in my earlier post

Joe


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Enjoying this thread. I'm sitting here reading " Quiet: The power of Introverts in a world that can't stop talking" by Susan Cain. Great read so far.

The section I am reading is dealing with genes and how species DEVELOP genes to advance survival.

She hasn't mentioned dogs but a statement that hit home:

"Evolutionary biologist once believed that every animal species evolved to fit an ecological niche, that there was one ideal set of behaviors for that niche, and that species members whose behavior deviated from that ideal would die off. But it turns out that it's not only humans that divide into those who "watch and wait" and others who "just do it." More than a hundred species in the animal kingdom are organized roughly this way."

A couple pages later:
" Scientist have found that nomads who inherited the form of a particular gene linked to extroversion (specifically to novelty-seeking) are better nourished than those without this version of the gene. But in settled populations, people with this same gene form have poorer nutrition. The same traits that make a nomad fierce enough to hunt and to defend livestock against raiders may hinder more sedentary activities like farming, selling goods at the market, or focusing at school."

I do not know if these couple paragraphs will work out of context. A Vizsla will be the product of its genes over generations. It is about the blend of evolutionary survival genes that produce the dog the owner wants. A Pointer will have to have the "pointer gene" that MAKES it wait for the hunter. That gene has to be there and bred for. Met scientist at a field trial that took blood samples from Bailey and a few other young field trial dogs that showed NATURAL hunting traits. They are looking for the pointing gene. A very unique gene. Most dogs can be taught to retrieve. That is a common gene. The pointing gene, on the other hand is very rare. One of the few genes that REQUIRE someone else to do the "taking of the prey" as they stand and POINT to where it is.

Some of this will be in my "THE POINT" post along with many point stories.

Ok. Back to reading my book.

Who is John Galt?

RBD


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

There is some, or a lot of force in force fetch depending on the dog. If there was no force (dog given a choice) it would still be voluntary fetch. Therefor it would be not be reliable in most dogs. I look at it more as pressure than force, but in the end its the same no matter what word you use.
Whether its toe hitch, ear pinch or transferred to ecollar, the dog is put under pressure to comply with the command.
I have seen dogs that will comply with little pressure and FT labs that went through extreme pressure during FF.

RBD
I just ordered the book Empty Collars

These words of George Bird Evans capture what is at the heart of Empty Collars, a collection of writings about gun dogs, their owners, and the immutable bond between them. Losing a pet is never easy, and the connection between gun dog and owner seems to have an added intensity.


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