# Playing with another dog not fluent in "dog" language?



## anne_wilcrest (Oct 20, 2011)

Hello all! First of all, I just want to say that I love this forum, it has saved my sanity *countless* times in my v's puppyhood. So thank you. 

Now she's 5 months old and I have a dilemma I'm hoping you can weigh in on.

We live in a shared house (split into apartments), with a shared yard, there are 2 dogs (from different apts) that shared the yard - one being the best "big brother" example to my pup - and another... who is a large labrodoodle(?) who is ... a lot. Not that I have a problem with dogs with a lot of energy (obviously!) the problem is that this dog doesn't seem to be especially fluent in "dog" language...
When my pup Penny was just a 12 weeks old this dog (let's call her Sally) would pounce on her and when Penny would yelp, tail-tucked and flee, this dog would not let up, but chase her and try to pounce her again with the same intensity, it was like Sally didn't hear her. Which didn't happen with any other dogs we played with. It just seemed like Sally wasn't "getting it" and never slowed down her speed to "puppy" but played with her at the same intensity as the other large dog (our fav. big brother, who never played rough with Penny... much to Penny's chagrin as she got older)
After this happening a couple times I just never let Penny out when Sally was, and watched any interactions they had, etc.

But now Penny is a more sizeable playmate for Sally. And I have been letting them play more (especially because our other neighbor with the big brother dog moved :'( )

The problem is... I'm afraid Penny's been picking up a few traits from this dog... I'm most concerned about the disregard for other dog's "no" signs - which is something Penny recently started doing in our puppy class's play time... I've been taking steps to prevent this in class (interrupting lots, separating her from the fun when she gets too rough, having her sit mid play, rewarding good play) - but when we come home and she plays with Sally, she still plays... aggressively. (leading with bites to neck fur)

I know that this could totally be a "me" problem, but I can't help but feel they are related... especially since it seems like currently it's the only place/time Penny's exhibiting this behavior on a regular basis. (puppy class play has gotten a lot better)

SO. (sorry so long!) I guess this is a part dog part person question... 
How should I proceed? 
Should I limit her play with this dog? (If so, any ideas about how I might be able to do this diplomatically with the neighbors? - So far when I've limited their play, _as I'm doing now_, I've put all the weight on Penny- as in, _I'm working really hard on training her not to this or that _- which is true! and hopefully less offensive!)
Should I just let her play with this dog this way as long as the other dog and her seem to be ok with it? (ie; let them the judge of what too rough is?)
Or should I just deal with this as separate issue (ie; turn that finger around)?


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## born36 (Jun 28, 2011)

How old is Sally?? If she is also a pup the play will get to an over excited state quick. A mother or alpha in the pack would stop them and in this case that needs to be you!

If you know that the two dogs are playing rough and you are okay with it then let it continue as long as there is no yelping. If they are reaching a level that you are not comfortable with then stop them. Also get the owner of Sally involved. They will soon start to regulate their levels as they will learn what is good vs bad play. This could take some time but stick with it. My pup is just 9 months this week and for the first time last weekend he met a V puppy that was 13 weeks old and he slowed right down. Prior to this every puppy used to be over whelmed by his energy. It will take time for them to calm. We still struggle with small dogs and I am sure many others on the forum would agree that small dogs will always present a challenge.
Just be very "on the ball" when the dogs play. Except the fact that if they are to play together you or Sally's owner need to be there to moderate until they learn the rules.


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## Ozkar (Jul 4, 2011)

Anne, Vizslas have a very rough style of play. It's not for all dogs. Sometimes I watch my two V boys and my GSP girl play and cringe at what they do to each other. But, they have good bite inhibition and only ever hurt each other by accident, not intentionally. 

To be honest, I think you just need to let Penny be a Vizsla.


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## gunnr (Aug 14, 2009)

Penny is going to play very hard, and it's not always going to be nice and gentle, or playful exuberance. She's going to instinctively begin to develop and hone a skill set that requires of her that she run down game and dispatch it, and who better to practice on than another dog.
The labradoodle is a cross between a Lab, and a Poodle, both dogs are high energy dogs that have hunting instincts bred into them. The Lab, a retriever/tracker.The poodle, a courser. Both genetically designed to hunt prey to ground, and bring game down. Just like your dog.
Dogs don't really have an "I give up" sign, or respect one. Adult dogs seem to know too put up with puppy foolishness, but adolescents don't. It hasn't developed yet,and that's where it sounds like your at.
You have two powerful dogs that growing up together. It's going to get a little rough at times.
But,,,,,, your job is to intercede when the play gets too rough. That's your role, and you must present yourself as in charge to both dogs. That's natural, and that's what they will respond too.
All social animals, in herds or packs, predator or prey, have controls built in. Each naturally have their own way of enforcing a "Time Out" when an offending member gets out of hand. 
Watch them, let them play, and you'll see that they will moderate themselves over the next few months.


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## datacan (May 15, 2011)

They read each other and adjust the rough housing. Every dog is treated differently. 
I stay clear of dogs that don't adjust or cannot communicate properly. Size doesn't matter, although the smallest breeds tend to be the most aggressive toward my 11 month old V. 
I also stay away from dog parks where a large mix of dogs all play together at once. Dominance issues are bound to come up.


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## anne_wilcrest (Oct 20, 2011)

thank you for your responses so far!

@born36 Sally is about a year and a half old...

which sounds the timing - of her adolescence and Penny's current puppy treatment (she's actually pretty great with small dogs) is what @Gunnr was referring to


> Adult dogs seem to know too put up with puppy foolishness, but adolescents don't. It hasn't developed yet,and that's where it sounds like your at.


which makes sense...
It wasn't so much an "I give up" sign (and stopping play altogether) I was referring to as a "that's too rough" sign (play with me differently) that seemed to be ignored 

I should have mentioned that Penny definitely plays with other high energy dogs - we go to a vizsla group walk nearly every Sunday (20 or so Vs running and playing) and she has play dates with her sister (Hi Riley's mom!) and while they do play rough, I generally don't worry about it, I think I was more worried about this dog because I saw Sally disregard Penny's communication when she was younger.
My other concern being that Sally never corrects Penny for being too aggressive - which other dogs, or the Vs, or her sister, definitely would/have done.

@Ozkar I have no problem with their playing rough, I'm worried about a disregard of communication

@datacan I definitely agree the most aggressive anti-social dogs we have met have all been small breeds - what makes me crazy is the owner will tell me their dog "doesn't play with others" AFTER their dog has tried to attack mine! If they'd just said that in the first place we wouldn't have paused to "chat" (read: butt sniff and chat)
I have a theory that tiny dogs are especially fragile looking/tiny when puppies and therefore more likely to be over protected and left completely un-socialized


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## Miles (May 18, 2011)

I'm not an expert but personally, I would limit play with the other dog. It sounds like the owner could be more responsible and you have lots of other play opportunities. 

My 10.5 month old Vizsla adjusts his play to the dog he's playing with- with similar sized/energy dogs, it is rough but you know they're having fun and there's no yelping. He really slows down with small dogs and it's fine. I can't say I taught him this- I'm biased but I think he's mostly very sweet and has learned from playing w. all different types of dogs from the start. 

I'm not sure about bites to neck fur- a trainer said when they bite/snap at the nose, it is a correction to the other dog but other areas of the body are aggression- anyone know?


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