# How much is too much?



## Főnix (Feb 3, 2013)

I don't really know if there's an answer for this, but thought I'd throw it out there—

I've been reading the forum and several threads have contributed to me wondering how to accomplish safe, healthy socialization for my dog (he comes home this week). 

I can't find the thread now, but someone linked to this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqV1L-EOWkc

I agree 100% that dogs need to be allowed to play like dogs, as well as teach each other like dogs. I don't want to go in there and pull normal dogs apart thinking they're being aggressive and deny our pup those lessons that help him become well mannered.

At the same time, I'm reading through people's dog park stories, the extreme being dmak's spoils of war experience (http://www.vizslaforums.com/index.php/topic,5412.0.html). This being my first dog, I don't know if I'll be able to tell the moment that normal play turns to aggression and it sounds like there is always risk in going to a dog park. Is it better for someone inexperienced to avoid them altogether? If someone were asking me I would tell them you just have to get out there and figure it out, but I hate to think that my pup's safety is dependent on my trial and error.

The dogs that I know (so far) that live near me are very different from Vizslas, which would still be okay, but I would mainly consider them unstable. They're smaller breeds, I wouldn't be worried about him getting hurt, but I don't really want him learning from them either. My fingers are crossed that when we get out and about we'll run into some good playmates for him. I was able to find a puppy class but so far we're the only ones signed up. There isn't a Vizsla club in our area.

I'm not worried about exercise, there is a canyon we hike five minutes from home, mostly just worried about dog socialization.

Does anyone have any pointers on knowing when there's a problem for those of us who don't have a lot of experience to draw on?


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## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

I can give you a few pointers on where and how I found the information you're interested in finding. I'm not a trainer, so this list is only my experience. 

First, decide what you mean by 'socialization'. Are you going to train for the Canine Good Citizenship award or are you just trying to ensure your pup won't react when a strange dog strolls by? Or do you expect your dog to play with any dog who happens to be near? I worry about people who say they want their dog to play 'with other dogs'. Most people wouldn't let their kids play with just anyone. Why don't they screen who their dog plays with?

With your definition in mind - beware of anyone who tells you to 'let the dogs sort it out'. In my experience, those people have dogs that either know how to take care of themselves or are big enough that they won't get hurt.

If you are going to dog parks, go once without your puppy (or leave your pup in the car for a few minutes while you scope it out). Watch the owners first. They should be interacting with their dogs. If they are talking to other owners, both sets of eyes should be on the dogs, not each other. The people should be calm and in control of their surroundings. Then watch the dogs. The dogs should be having fun either with their owners or playing with other dogs. No tails should be tucked; no teeth should be bared. The dog parks I have visited have been best early enough in the morning when the only people who are willing to get up are the ones totally committed to their dogs.

If you can, find someone with a calm, older dog who can explain what to watch for. Obviously, a trainer would be ideal. If you choose not to go that route, go to a local park or school and look for a family with a well-mannered dog and young kids - especially ones who have a golden retriever or other large dog. Parents, especially with young kids, are VERY observant when it comes to dog language, in my experience.

If you know of a local feed store, many people who go there spend their lives with various animals. Take your puppy through a local pet store and you'll hear lots of squeals - Oooo a puppy!!!. Take your puppy through a local feed store and you may get one or two folks who look, smile, and calmly say 'nice looking pup'. Those folks at the feed store are the ones you want to ask where and when is a good place for a pup to meet some well-mannered dogs. 

Other folks on the forum can advise you about hunt clubs. They seem like a good idea, but I don't have any experience with them. 

Finally, I'll tell you that since the pup is looking to you for everything - trust your instincts. If you don't like what you see somewhere and decide to leave, you are not being rude. If you don't like the look of a dog or owner, and decide to avoid the situation, you are not being paranoid. If you are unsure and want to watch something before your dog participates, you are not being overprotective. Do what you think is right. More often than not, it will be the right thing for your pup. I found that I had more trouble with other owners and their unsought opinions than I ever had with their dogs.

Hope something in this rather long post helps. Good luck!


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## Rufus Tiberius (Dec 18, 2012)

That is some really great advice jld640...I would just add... make sure he has had at least his second round of vaccinations before taking him out for some socialization.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

Hi, I wouldn't recommend going to dog parks unless you need to.

We got Oso in a great puppy playtime class at our local Petco. They hosted the class 4-5x a week. It was free and all puppies under the age of 6 months, under supervision of a trainer. The dogs had to have 2 sets of shots to begin and Oso started at 10 weeks. We were able to go consistently 3x a week.

It helped educate me on what was normal and let Oso get some great play experience. From there we exchanged numbers with some dogs that Oso enjoyed playing with and did play dates. 

I would look for something similar in your area. Sometimes private trainers host the puppy playtimes too, though typically you have to pay. Another thought is contacting your local vizsla club or seeing if there is a meetup nearby. I'm sure the other owners would love to oooh and ahhh over your baby and your pup will get some good play in regardless. 

We utilized dog parks quite a bit in Oso's puppyhood, but we would go at off times, check out the dogs before going in and have a rule that we will leave immediately if a dog comes that is unbalanced. We started at around 5 months. It's really not the best case scenario and I would avoid it if you can. Unfortunately, my good friends have unsocialized backyard dogs that really aren't a good fit for Oso as well. Fortunately, I've made a few friends trying to find playmates for him.


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## stryker (Dec 9, 2012)

Simple put him in your shopping cart and take a long spin around Lowes or Homedepot


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

I would avoid the dog park... indefinitely. It's not a good place for puppies or even adult dogs. 

You should see if there is a Vizsla group near you so you can take the pup on some "pack" walks. Riley's training from these pack walks as a pup through adulthood was invaluable. They learn how to act around adults and pups their own age. We also took her to "puppy social club" when she had her last set of shots at 12 weeks old. It was a great experience for her and really helped her to become much more confident. It's good for them to be exposed to all kinds of different dogs when they are little and puppies are very non-threatening. 

Here is a video of a puppy social club trip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gvsMN6estw


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## MilesMom (Jun 21, 2012)

We only have Miles socialize with dogs we know are friendly because he's been bitten so many times. We will go to the dog park still and just hang out on the side and play fetch. He gets very fixated on his ball so while he's retrieving we scope out the scene. If the dogs are interacting nicely and the owners seem reasonable, then we will let him play. If not, we hang out by ourselves on the side and just let Miles play with his ball. It's not worth it. We feel that some of his fear issues have come from being bitten. Other than this , we have made lots of V friends and have neighborhood friends with nice dogs that Miles play with. It's important to feel comfortable talking to the other owner so if things were to get "too much" you can tell the owner without a fight.


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## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

Hey luvtolaugh - the mangement at our local Petco changed a while back. It went from being a great place to visit with Savannah to being terrible. At one point a trainer who was leading a puppy socialization class let all the 'puppies' romp around the store off leash. Some of the dogs were older and at least one thought it was great fun to chase any leashed dog into the displays or aisle caps while the trainer just said 'see that's the dogs working it out'.

Glad to know your Petco is still a great place to visit. Savannah will not go back into our local Petco until the management changes again. As everywhere, IMHO, the people set the tone so an owner has to check out the people before risking the pup.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 6, 2011)

In light of jld's comment, def. check out your local petco before bringing your pup there. During puppy playtime at our petco, all the owners stay with the dogs. It would be easy to watch and validate whether the trainer is good or not. The trainer only supervised anyways. 

Jld - that sounds absolutely insane that they let the dogs out of the enclosure off leash. I know at ours they have a code where if a dog is off leash, they shut all the doors. Even for recall practice, they used the 30 ft. leash in the obedience classes. I'm sorry little Savannah had bad experiences. My guess is a lot has to do with the trainer.


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## Főnix (Feb 3, 2013)

These ideas are helping so much. 

It sounds like the dog park should probably be a last resort. I'll avoid them for now. And I'll go to the pet store and observe a couple of the puppy hours and decide if it's a good idea or not. Thanks to threefsh for the video, it's good to get an idea of normal. I assume they make sure the puppies who come are vaccinated, or should I not take him till after 12 weeks? 

jld640, thanks for the great tips. Ideally I'd like to train for the Canine Good Citizen. It's hard to know without knowing him yet. Mostly, I want, for his sake, for him to feel comfortable in any situation. It makes so much sense to go feel out a place before bringing him in to it, and to go to feed stores instead of pet shops, find a stable family dog at a regular park, etc. This is stuff I can do. 

Thanks so much, everyone! I'll do these things and trust my instincts and I think we'll be alright. 

One more question...would you say that the you can get a feel for a dog by interacting with it's owner and vice versa? From the comments it sounds almost like if you feel comfortable with the owners you don't need to worry too much about their dogs?

Thanks again


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## Racer (Apr 23, 2012)

The boy was my first dog as well, and I had the same worries as you about socialization as well as the "what ifs" if a dog fight/incident occurred. There is some trial and error, but if you're observant, I think you'll be just fine! Plus it seems you have a healthy attitude to letting your boy mix it up at least a little.

Depending on your area, I'd say try and do as much as possible to get the pup exposed to other dogs (as well as different experiences). Regardless of breed. I'd call up some pet stores as well as doggy day care places and see if any of them have or know of any puppy socials. I'm in a city, so there were a bunch of puppy socials (there were lots listed in Yelp). You can also try the SPCA. At least here, they had weekly puppy socials. You may also want to ask other dog trainers if they know of any other puppy classes (since you said you're the only one signed up right now in the one you found). I'd even go as far and say put your pup in day care a little bit, provided they have what you deem a safe environment. I had to put my boy in day care when he was about 13-14 weeks old. he was the only pup, but I feel that because of it, he learned quite a bit, since he was corrected quite a bit by the older dogs.

I know that some people here have had bad experiences with dog parks. I do use them and have not had any incident. I will admit that I'm probably not a good reference point perhaps, since ever since he was a pup, for the most part, I never intervened. I've had other dog owners ask me if they should call their dog off (which I greatly appreciated). My answer was generally "no". He has had his share of puncture and gashes. Nothing that required a vet. And IMHO, he didn't receive them from an aggressive dog, but from a dog that was just playing hard (which is how he plays too).

Every dog will be different, and admittedly I have limited experience. You'll need to gauge what you think your pup's personality is. 

Also remember that there are also the unforeseen events that no one can control. These can happen anywhere. Although dog parks do probably escalate the possibilities...


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## jld640 (Sep 29, 2010)

Fonix – Just like kids and parents, you can get an idea of one from the other. However, since each is an individual, the behavior of one doesn’t necessarily guarantee the other. 

At least initially, you will probably be able to get a better feel more quickly about the humans. You’ll learn how to get a feel for the dogs over time. Eventually, and ideally, you will figure out how to read the pair of them to decide if you want your pup to interact with them. As Racer said, that takes some trial and error. You can minimize the error with the effort you already indicated you are going to make.


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## Főnix (Feb 3, 2013)

Thanks everyone. These ideas and tips are helping everything come together for me.

We've had him for about 10 days now and even just watching him play with us has given me a better idea of what is okay and what isn't. We've had play that is rougher than I expected, but it's obviously not aggression. 

We've been out with him several times and he's always very active, sometimes in an anxious way, but we just stay calm and ignore him and he sorts it out. We haven't spent a lot of time with other dogs yet, mostly waiting on shots, but the couple of experiences we have had have been good. Even when a big dog was growling at him he just looked/sniffed in that direction like he was interested and stayed near me. That's good, right? I was happy he wasn't scared.


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