# The Punishment of Positive Only Training



## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

I found this article to be very interesting. Food for thought.

http://growingupguidepup.org/the-punishment-of-positive-only/ 

Ken


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

While I don't disagree that "positive only" taken to its extreme is bound to lead to failures of the type outlined, I'm more concerned just how backwards the gun-dog community is in failing to use the best of PR methods.

I'd bet 95% of bird-dog owners would be incapable of training dogs without an e-collar. And harshly punitive methods like staking dogs to break their spirits (as a means of teaching heel), or terrorizing dogs into thinking the "only safe place is by your side" (a "technique" called "debolting"), or force-fetch, or any other of a myriad of other inhumane methods are still common-place.

The extremism of PR-only should not give cover to the abusive techniques still employed by too many good ol' boys and good ol' girls.

My 2 cents.

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Spy car 
Guess I hangout with a different group of people than you.
I see a lot of slowly guiding the dog in the direction you want them to take, and not much force to it.
More trainers have a open mind to new ways, than they did many years ago. I'd say its more of an old and new combined together. Not all positive, but not overly harsh either.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

TexasRed said:


> Spy car
> Guess I hangout with a different group of people than you.
> I see a lot of slowly guiding the dog in the direction you want them to take, and not much force to it.
> More trainers have a open mind to new ways, than they did many years ago. I'd say its more of an old and new combined together. Not all positive, but not overly harsh either.


I think the prevailing methods in are way behind the times. I see very few trainers capitalizing on positive methods to the degree they should, and a continuous use of harsh and even abusive means by a great many others.

There is a long way to go before there is a "balance" in my estimation. Go to any bird-dog forum and advocate for more positivity or question abusive-method and you'll be shouted down. Trust me.

Bill


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

I'm a member of a few birddog/hunting groups. 
Yes there is a small number that can be harsh when it comes to training, and a small number that give positive only a try. But for the most part it's people that build bonds with their dogs, and do lots of repetitions, letting the dog learn through trial and error. 

Now if I joined one of those forums, and started posting about how cruel the people are that use ecollars, or that no dog should ever be force fetched I wouldn't be very welcome. The fact is I do use ecollars, and one of my dogs is FF. But I would have to say, that was only a small part of their training.


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## lyra (Nov 2, 2012)

That article 100% reflects my opinion on PR only training.

I understand your point Bill but it isn't an excuse to abuse a dog (as you have said yourself). One of the things I love about my girls is that they have their own personalities and minds. Unfortunately, their minds and mine sometimes differ on acceptable behaviour despite them knowing what is required of them. That said, nowadays, 99% of my NR is a telling off in my 'special voice' with my 'scary eyes'! Even that has to be tailored for the dog because one of them is a lot more sensitive than the other.

We have used e-collars in the past for specific problems but only ever at a level which is, at most, uncomfortable, never at a level which would cause distress which we think is unnecessary and unacceptable. As a result we now have two dogs that we can allow to roam freely, often out of our site, confident they will return when called or whistled. They would never have been allowed this freedom which they love without a period of NR training - and it wasn't for the lack of trying extended periods of PR training first. It was something we felt we had to do, for them not us, so that they could have better more fulfilling lives.


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## dextersmom (Oct 29, 2013)

Lyra said:


> That article 100% reflects my opinion on PR only training.


x2


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

So I'm not misconstrued, while I don't personally use an e-collar (and think I'm a better trainer as a result) I'm not anti-e-collar generally speaking. Used well, to reinforce training that is well established by mostly positive means, they have value as a tool. No other tool allow one to give an immediate correction across distance. No argument.

The downside of e-collars is they came in just as the rest of the dog training world was discovering the powerful advantages of positive techniques. Gun-dog training in the 70's was notable for mostly-punitive means, and the adoption of the e-collar slowed the evolution to more positive means. The Gun-dog training culture is still way behind the times in my estimation.

I'm not an advocate of PR-only. But there is a balancing point that is much closer to PR method that is superior to the degree of very harsh training methods that still prevail with fellow hunters in my opinion.

In this position I've taken a fair amount of heat from both sides, while successfully training dogs to very high standards.

Bill


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## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

I think sometimes you do have to deviate from R+. Whilst it's a great training method and keeps your dogs eager to please, especially a new discipline, sometimes I think it falls short when your dog starts exhibiting unwanted behaviour. I'm certainly not suggesting "spare the rod and spoil the child" is the way forward when this happens, but I certainly let my two know when they've stepped over the line. I've never used an e-collar but I have used a stern voice with a "on your bed!" or "heel!" command. Does this approach eliminate unwanted behaviour?, not always, but it snaps them back into focus at the time.


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## Spy Car (Sep 3, 2014)

harrigab said:


> I think sometimes you do have to deviate from R+. Whilst it's a great training method and keeps your dogs eager to please, especially a new discipline, sometimes I think it falls short when your dog starts exhibiting unwanted behaviour. I'm certainly not suggesting "spare the rod and spoil the child" is the way forward when this happens, but I certainly let my two know when they've stepped over the line. I've never used an e-collar but I have used a stern voice with a "on your bed!" or "heel!" command. Does this approach eliminate unwanted behaviour?, not always, but it snaps them back into focus at the time.


Sure, but what what you need to understand Doug is how sharply the methods of gundog trainers in the UK and the USA have diverged. I use methods akin to what you all use there, and have for over 45 years. That makes me way outside the norm here, where harsh and retrograde methods endure. It goes way beyond the use (or non-use) of e-collars, to making pressure and pain the foundation upon which training is built, far in excess of what is necessary or expeditious.

I think you (and other in the UK) would be horrified by the cruelty that is common-place here in gun-dog training circles. I certainly am. It is a hugely more important issue to me than the deficiencies of PR-only training. 

I'll be glad for the day I feel content to pile-on good ideas being taken to the point of counter-productive extremism, but we are so far from that point here in the USA that it isn't even funny.

Bill


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