# How to "spot" a puppy mill



## harrigab (Aug 21, 2011)

Just I'd throw this out there. In the spirit of making potential new V owners aware, how would you spot and differentiate a puppy mill from a reputable and maybe even prolific breeder?


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## David (Jul 17, 2012)

If your strong need for instant gratification helped you choose the breeder, you may have a puppy mill on your hands. 

I noticed that most breeders have quite a long waiting list, so fallowing that logic, no waiting list must mean lots of puppies etc., or an inexperienced breeder just starting out?


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## hotmischief (Mar 11, 2012)

I disagree, the fact that there is no waiting list does not always mean the breeder is a puppy mill.

Our breeder did not have a waiting list as she only breeds when she wants a puppy to keep. I think this was only her third litter, and the bitch's first. Also she would only take a deposit having met the potential purchasers.

Most puppy mills have several breeding bitches and they are not housed within a private house, usually in barns or sheds. Quite often you will get no paper work with your puppy.

In comparison most hobby/private breeders will house their vizslas within the house. Yes, if they are well known and breed on a regular basis they will probably have a waiting list, they will grill potential buyers and most will have a contract with a clause requesting that if you can no longer keep one of their dogs then you should return it to them first.


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## redbirddog (Apr 23, 2010)

Waiting lists are good, but then you get the "only one left" sales pitch. Get to know the breeder FIRST.

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/07/dont-support-backyard-breed.html

http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/03/what-is-commercial-breeder-family-news.html

Two of my posts regarding puppy mills and backyard breeders. Read over the differences before you look to purchase.

If the "interview" is not tough and does not ask a lot of questions about you, your family lifestyle and your plans for the dog. If they do not offer to take the dog back if needed and does not ask you to keep the dog "whole" until at least 18 months old, you most-likely do not have a hobby. 

Hobby is a misunderstood word. These are folks that have a passion for the breed without the driving force of producing a profit but the best Hungarian Pointer they can.

RBD


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## threefsh (Apr 25, 2011)

Here are my top 10 warning signs:

1. Puppies are *always* available. (Even the most prolific breeder won't _always_ have pups available.)

2. Breeder is willing to sell you a puppy without an in-person interview or in-depth phone screen. 

3. More than one breed of puppies available from the same breeder.

4. Puppies are advertised on websites such as "Next Day Pets" and eBay.

5. Dam and/or Sire are not on-site for you to meet.

6. Dam is younger than 2 years old before her first litter and/or doesn't have hip & elbow certification.

7. Contract doesn't guarantee hips/elbows or requires "NuVet" vitamin supplements to be fed to the puppy otherwise health guarantee is void.

8. Dam is bred regularly every year with no breaks.

9. Contract doesn't specify that you are to return the pup to the breeder should you need to give them up for any reason.

10. Breeder won't let you tour all of the areas the dogs/pups are kept and raised.


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## WillowyndRanch (Apr 3, 2012)

David said:


> I noticed that most breeders have quite a long waiting list, so fallowing that logic, no waiting list must mean lots of puppies etc., or an inexperienced breeder just starting out?


Not neccesarily. Some breeders will only breed occasionally, but with great thought, purpose and guarantee behind their breeding. They won't maintain a waiting list because they don't breed with enough frequency to "fill orders" for lack of a better description. They instead refer to reputable higher volume breeders as we know that regardless of most people's good intention, they simply will not wait and end up buying a pup somewhere else anyway. They could also hope to make a profit on the breeding and still be considered reputable. I could have a list of 30 people that I kept on a list instead of referring the past two years, but when the pups are actually born and you call them for a deposit virtually all of them will have bought a dog already from another breeder/passed away/divorced/moved to somewhere they can't keep a dog, etc. etc. The only one's who really seem to stick are those who know specifically the dog being bred and are specifically waiting for THAT breeding. The simple truth is those folks are few and very far between. 



redbirddog said:


> If the "interview" is not tough and does not ask a lot of questions about you, your family lifestyle and your plans for the dog. If they do not offer to take the dog back if needed and does not ask you to keep the dog "whole" until at least 18 months old, you most-likely do not have a hobby.
> RBD


Two points of comment to this:

1. The interview/application should definitely cover all the points RBD aplty discusses above. I would like to point out that it should not feel like an interrogation. We try to be exceptionally nice in the discussions and ask probing questions getting answers that fit are important, but equally important is the overall impression of the people and their passion. Anyone can do a little research and answer all the questions with answers they know breeders want to hear, the real test is if we have a good feeling about the people and the truthfulness.

2. I think it is a slippery slope to simplify categorizing breeders as "Hobby = Good" "Profitable = Bad". I've seen some atrociously bred "hobby breeder" dogs and think perhaps a better descriptor is "Reputable". That applies to both hobby and Commercial or "high volume" breeders. 

Just my .03 worth.

Ken


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## veifera (Apr 25, 2012)

Great thread! I agree that it's often a confusing dilemma, to figure out which breeder is "reputable", hence the various screens or shorthand people use to make that navigation easier.

I think a breeder is "reputable" when s/he is recognized and respected by other breeders and the Vizsla community at large. That means the following:

- this breeder is consistently proving the quality of each of the breedings, over and over again. This means very active involvement in conformation, hunting tests and field trials. It's not enough to do this once with one dog or the foundation bitch - the breeder is usually only as good as his/her current litter. This information is readily available and easy to find. And this usually means it's a full-time job.

- this breeder is carefully combining field and show lines to achieve the best of both worlds. My own preference is seeing a pedigree that is full of CH prefixes and JH/SH/MH suffixes. It has nothing to do with personal vanity, I view it as insurance policy that my dog will be up to the breed standard and have the instinct to do what it was intended for - hunt! There are breeders that specialize in show only or in the field only - I'd be looking for an all-round dog and use a combination of suffixes and prefixes as a guide. 

- this breeder is known for involvement in the Vizsla community - working at a local Vizsla club, for example serving on a committee, putting events together, etc.

- this breeder is interested in puppy owners who will do something with the dog, to help the breeder "prove" the quality of the breeding. Agility, hunting, show ring, obedience - any of the AKC sports and activities. That's where the "pick of the litter" debate acquires a whole new meaning. 

I guess what I'm suggesting is that the trick is in the meaning of "reputable" - reputable among who? Casual puppy buyers like most of us or other breeders who strive to produce the best and prove it, over and over?


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## VictoriaW (Mar 16, 2011)

A website that declares "we are not a puppy mill!" is usually a very big clue that you should look elsewhere.


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## VictoriaW (Mar 16, 2011)

As is an announcement that *Christmas puppies are available*! We will start taking calls on the morning of Nov 30 to hold an appointment for the Dec 1 and Dec 2 showing of the pups. These beautiful pups are likely to go fast, so please contact us early in the morning.

Boy, do I wish I were making this up....


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## texasred (Jan 29, 2012)

Most reputable breeders will have information that's easy to research. Bloodlines, health clearances, titles, placements at trials/shows. Past litter information.
They are knowledgeable about the breed and the venues that you are interested in. Pups are matched to the homes. Its not a first to put money down gets first pick of any of the pups if its not the right pup for them.

I guess I'm a little different than some, on looking for a new pup. I hope to have one in around two years. I just started putting feelers out on a specific stud. They don't breed often and when they do I would like to have my name in the hat. He has all the qualities that I'm looking for and has passed them on in previous litters.


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## VictoriaW (Mar 16, 2011)

This link was shared on the VT list this week. 

A Dozen Simple Ways to be Certain You Are
Working With a Reputable Breeder
http://speakingforspot.com/blog/201...ain-you-are-working-with-a-reputable-breeder/


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