# Grain Free



## timc1018 (Aug 29, 2016)

I have two, 1 year old V's. Been feeding them TOW High Prairie for the past month (previously IAMS Large Breed Puppy). Their stools are very soft/runny, and one of the V's constantly has bowel movements. I did not have the soft/runny stool problem with IAMs, but they were experiencing bumps on their skin and small patches of hair loss. My concern now is the soft stools and large amounts, as well as frequent BM's. My Breeder and two vet's told me the simple digestive systems of a dog cannot handle the high protein. I was wondering what others are experiencing with the Grain Free diet???

I was considering trying the Pacific Stream. Anyone have any recommendations that have experienced the soft/runny stools?

Tim


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## trevor1000 (Sep 20, 2013)

We have had no issues with grain free food.
If their BM's went soft as soon as u changed food I would change again.
Maybe it is the "type" of protein(s) that are in the new food.
There are some brands of food that have a single protein, you can start to eliminate certain proteins to see if you can figure out what is causing it.
Maybe cut ALL kibble out for a few days and feed pumpkin, rice and some chicken to get their system's back on track?


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## timc1018 (Aug 29, 2016)

you mean go RAW for a few days?


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## einspänner (Sep 8, 2012)

Long post warning! I had the same experience with TOTW and other grain free kibbles. This led me down a dog nutrition rabbit hole which ended with a raw diet as our solution. 4 years later and I'm still very happy I made the switch even though it's inconvenient. 

Most grain free kibbles are still primarily carb based, they just use things like beans and potatoes as the filler instead of corn and rice. It's my hypothesis that those were the real issue instead of the higher protein content. Early on I was making these elaborate veggies blends and more often than not, it would lead to digestive upset, but it was really hard to break away from the conventional advice that dogs needs vegetables. They can eat them, sure, but because of their biology they digest them inefficiently so it doesn't make sense for them to be the basis of their diet. Instead dogs should eat a primarily meat based diet with the bulk of their calories coming from fat. 

I was curious how the macro nutrient ratio compares between TOTW and a typical raw diet. On Dog Food Advisor I found the dry matter basis (moisture removed) on Oma's Pride Raw, which most closely approximates my dog's homemade diet and that of TOTW's Southwest Canyon. 

*Oma's Pride* has 36% Protein/ 49% Fat/ 7% Carbs
*TOTW* has 32% P/ 17% F/ 43% C

The numbers for High Prairie are in that same ballpark. So protein levels are similar, (and again work out just fine for my dog) but the others macros are nearly reversed. Just taking a cursory glance at Dog Food Advisor's 5 star rated kibbles, it looks like when they do reduce carbs even more, they bump up the protein instead of the fat. For example Wysong Epigen food only has 9% Carbs, but a whopping 67% protein. Some freeze dried "raw" kibbles have a slightly better protein/fat balance, but they're really pricey. I don't know what I'd do for kibble, but I would look for one that has low carbs, moderate protein and fat, and then I'd supplement with a couple tablespoons/day of coconut or olive oil.


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## trevor1000 (Sep 20, 2013)

*not what i meant*



timc1018 said:


> you mean go RAW for a few days?


I didn't meat to go RAW, I meant cooked chicken and rice and pumpkin to get their bellies sorted out.
Once they are sorted out you can move on to another kibble or RAW or whatever you decide to do.
I'm certainly not against RAW, my boy gets raw chicken backs and necks and meaty bones but his primary food is kibble.


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## timc1018 (Aug 29, 2016)

So you can mix RAW with kibble, do you alternate days or just provide a mixture at each meal?

I am considering going RAW, but would like to mix if I can, that would ensure a safe diet, IF i can find a kibble that does not cause the soft stools. TOTW High Prairie is definitely out, may consider their Fish diet. IS there another kibble that you guys might recommend?

The are really dumping a tremendous amount out with each bowel movement with the TOTW Prairie.


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## trevor1000 (Sep 20, 2013)

He gets kibble in the evening.
Lunchtime he gets some raw chicken necks or backs
Every 2 or 3 days he gets a raw meaty bone to eat or chew.
This is not a raw diet and I don't think you will find too many people that cycle between the 2.
Most that feed RAW are %100 RAW
I feed him RAW more as a treat.
ACANA " singles" have single protein kibble of a few types.


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