# E collar help?



## zigzag

I am looking into a E collar purchase. I would like to purchase a Tri Tronics Made in the USA collar. All the people I talk to say that's the wise choice. My budget is 300.00 dollars. I am thinking about getting the classic 70 collar because it has 1mile range and can add a beeper. downside is 6 levels of continues stim, no momentary stim! it does have a tone feature witch is a must. My next choice would be a step down to the sport basic 1/2 mile range. My dog is on the softer side of the sport dog breed, I would say he is a textbook Vizsla does not respond well to hard training a soft method has worked well. I am not purchasing the collar to stop any unwanted behavior. Any help, Ecollar advise, greatly appreciated I have not had any experince with the Ecollar. Books, training methods personal opnions welcome. Thanks again.


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## datacan

I have the Sportdog SD 1825 1mile range. Waste of money, I thought vibe would be nice to have. They never go that far. The SD 1825 has a huge receiver and I think the TT 70 1mile range is also big.
I sold the SD 1825 and bought the TT sport basic like most pros here suggested. 10 levers of stim + tone.

No need for vibe (very annoying feature) doesn't work/ match the dog's drive. Tone is enough in most cases and stim level is tricky because it must match the drive level. Calm dog with high stim is overkill but high drive with low stim is useless. That's why I use tone first and stim as backup only. Vibe works but I don't have any use for it.


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## Ozkar

Firstly, let me make it clear, that I have a bias against Ecollars. So bare that in mind when you read my reply...... 

My advice, since you asked for opinions, is to work out another way to achieve what you want with an E collar. 

Rarely do I see or hear of anyone using them here in Oz. People seem to be able to train their dogs without the need to resort to one. 

I would prefer to spend an additional amount of time to train a dog, any dog, especially a V, rather than go down that path. 

Have a read of "Merle's Door" by Ted Kerasote before you make a decision on one, it might give you some food for thought.


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## Aimless1

I have no use for people who abuse the use of the e-collar. Most people seem to misunderstand. Used properly for reinforcement it is a wonderful tool. 

When I have needed a collar or needed to repair one, the Collar Clinic in Traverse City, MI has always been good to work with. You might consider calling them for advice. Good folks. I would definitely want the momentary stimulation. I am still using the two dog model from Dogtra that they recommended years ago. They carry Tritronics as well as other brands.


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## Bernie

I have a Sprotdog SD 1825 and am very pleased with it. I mosty use only the tone and do not use the vibe mode. It has 16 levels stimulation and is set on 3. I like the idea of a 1 mile range because it is a strongr signal which can be helpful in other ways ie. trees, brush, hills.


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## texasred

My first advise would be to get some books and videos on collar conditioning NOT collar breaking.

Second. The first two weeks place the collar on the dog with it turned off, and go for a walk or run with the dog. This make the dog associate the collar with something good and helps keep them from being collar wise. Collar wise is when a dog only follows commands when he's wearing the collar.

Third. Place the collar on your wrist and see what each level feels like. This will help you understand the stimulation and hopefully stop you from over using it.
After you have completed the steps above I'll be more than happy to answer any question you have.


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## Aimless1

zigzag said:


> I am not purchasing the collar to stop any unwanted behavior. Any help, Ecollar advise, greatly appreciated I have not had any experince with the Ecollar. Books, training methods personal opnions welcome. Thanks again.


TexasRed offered good advice. Out of print but available from Dave Walker direlctly is his training book which makes sense and also makes extensive use of an e-collar.


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## datacan

Just to clarify differences between continuous and momentary stim. 

I prefer continuous on low to momentary on high. Reason is that momentary stim *must* be higher then continuous, otherwise the dog may not get it. 

Continuous stim can be tapped instead of pressed continuously and that it the same as momentary stim.

The idea is that stim is on until the dog's action turns it off. Dog must learn that by complying with the command *it* controls the stim duration. That's how it is introduced. 
The kennel command is first as it is the most complicated. Stim on low while guiding the dog into the kennel by lesh pressure. Do this many times after which remove the leash and use only the stim - continuous. Stim stops the moment the dog enters the kennel. 
In any case you have 8 seconds because most collars will quit after 8 seconds.
This is how it I introduced the collar.

Be aware that stim is not natural to dogs like leash pressure is. If the leash pressure is separated too early form the low level *continuous* stim, the dog may associate strange things with the stim (like "OH this happended because I was standing next to this tree"...etc)

Later, once the dog knows that stim meas leash pressure then momentary tap is enough. Matter of fact tone can be substituted later. Tone followed by stim if no reaction noted.


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## ironman_stittsville

I have been thinking of getting a tone collar or similar to address Phoebe's issue with jumping up on people (and sometimes picking their pockets!). It is very bad behaviour that I've been unsuccessful at correcting when we are out in the forest for our off leash walks (every day). 

If there are other effective methods of training this without a tone collar, does anyone here have pointers to them?

Rh.


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## datacan

ironman_stittsville said:


> I have been thinking of getting a tone collar or similar to address Phoebe's issue with jumping up on people (and sometimes picking their pockets!). It is very bad behaviour that I've been unsuccessful at correcting when we are out in the forest for our off leash walks (every day).
> 
> If there are other effective methods of training this without a tone collar, does anyone here have pointers to them?
> 
> Rh.


Straight out of the box the e-collar wouldn't help much. I think she is looking for treats. Early on I noticed this behavior with Sam and discontinued all treats on our walks. 
I am not concerned about adults as much as children under 5. Noticed they pop out like mushrooms around playgrounds and parents are very fearful and all too often inexperienced. This only occurs 15 to 20 days out of 365.
I have been working with Sam on staying away from children, especially. I keep him engaged, make him heel (very strict if he breaks it - whistle and e-collar stim). 
Works (but needs constant reminder and repetition), so far no incidents off leash, even biking around play grounds. 
I seek out willing volunteers but at such a young age, hard to come by. So, we just circle the play ground once or twice.


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## ironman_stittsville

that is an idea, i'll stop bringing treats with me and see if her pick pocketing of others stops. it's very rude and can really scare people.

rh.


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## datacan

If they only picked the money... wouldn't that be neat?


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## Linescreamer

ironman_stittsville said:


> I have been thinking of getting a tone collar or similar to address Phoebe's issue with jumping up on people (and sometimes picking their pockets!). It is very bad behaviour that I've been unsuccessful at correcting when we are out in the forest for our off leash walks (every day).
> 
> If there are other effective methods of training this without a tone collar, does anyone here have pointers to them?
> 
> Rh.


That's an easy one. When the dog jumps up, hold her paws and squeeze in between the toes. She will quickly look to put those paws back on the ground. Have multiple people do this over the course of 2 or 3 weeks and she will not jump up on anyone again.


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## Linescreamer

If you don't need a mile go with a smaller TT collar. Just order it, they come with a book and you could watch the vid online also. What Tex said is the best, use it on yourself first. Once they know what comes after the tone, that is usually all it takes.  I have only once had to use mine over setting number 2 (it goes up to 10).


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## texasred

I don't use the tone as a correction. I use it get my dogs to change directions.
My dogs run in front of me. If I start walking a different direction I'll use the tone so they will acknowledge me and move to the front. Its great for when I don't want them to come all the way to me. They are whistle trained but sometimes its nice to have it quite. Use the tone and motion with one hand the direction I want them to go.


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## Mischa

zigzag said:


> I am not purchasing the collar to stop any unwanted behavior.


What are you getting it for?

Great advice so far. 

I use the tone for recall and it works flawlessly. I don't like the idea of a warning because it wastes the ability of having a silent command. SportDog warns that it can also make your dog afraid of everyday beeps, as it may associate that with a shock coming next.
The shock + command means stop it now, and listen to me. The tone means come back to me.


I used these sites to learn about them:
http://dobbsdogs.com/library/pointing/index.html
http://www.sportdog.com/Support/Training-Information/Videos.aspx#12079


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## zigzag

I plan on putting the collar on him without using it for a few weeks, then working the page/tone in the yard with CC for the come command. He is 99% on recall in the yard and 75% on recall in the field with distractions other dogs wild birds and things. My goal is to make a functioning hunting dog/family dog. If the Ecollar will give us an edge in training I am all for it. I dont want to limit myself by not trying or using effective training tools. Could I have a great dog without the Ecollar? YES. I am not looking for a quick fix, I will and do put the time in to have an exceptional dog.


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## Ozkar

I taught all three of mine not to jump. They can still occasionally forget themselves and go for a jump. However, normally I can read the signals and now a quick "No Jumping" command as we approach people stops them from forgetting.

I started by doing the initial training on lead to gaurantee control. I then communicate to whoever it is, to please not touch my dog until I make him/her sit. Once the dog has sat, I then allowed the person to pat them and gave them lots of praise. It does take time. Pointers and Vislas are just a hind leggy breed. But, with TIME AND PATIENCE you can achieve these things without the need for additional aids. 

As for asking them to change direction, I have taught mine to watch hand signals. Even Zsa Zsa who ranges much further than my V's, will be constantly looking back for direction.
To train this I simply kept finding birds for them. Then when I found some birds, I would gain there attention with a whistle or call, and then use the hand signal and change direction myself. They would then come and find the birds. So they have learnt now, that If I signal a direction change, it may be that there are birds or other prey there and they follow. 

It did however take about 3 or 4 months of constant training to instil both these behaviours. However, once again, I believe patience and understanding will deliver far more permanent and positive results and also retain a much happier dog. 

Once again, I express my disagreement with these devices. I reckon Y'all just lazy arses for resorting to it.........  Just my opinion though.... So it doesn't make it right necessarily.


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## hotmischief

These devices are quick fix aids. I have seen them cause more damage than good. I certainly wouldn't use one on a sensitive dog like a Vizsla. Some dogs become terrified of having a collar put on despite having the E collar put on for 2 weeks prior to use. Be sure you don't set your training back with the E collar. Good advise from Texas red, read lots of books and reviews before you get one.

I am trying to train my pup not to jump up, and although he has been quick to learn other commands he is slow to learn the word OFF - but I will not be using an Ecollar to solve the problem even if he is middle aged before we get there.

Ask yourself if you would use this to train your children. On second thoughts, some might benefit from it. :-*


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## datacan

hotmischief said:


> These devices are quick fix aids. I have seen them cause more damage than good. I certainly wouldn't use one on a sensitive dog like a Vizsla.


SOFT ?, SENSITIVE ?  How long have you had the dog? Your are in for a surprise, my friend. 
You sound exactly like my wife. Prongs OH, no will hurt the dog, e-collar will damage his machismo. 
Nothing will prepare you for what's coming. You just have to experience it yourself.
These are tough puppies. Certainly more enduring and more stubborn than my Tony, German Shepard was.

Want a softer dog? Look for a Spaniel. 
Vizsla needs lots of understanding and patience coupled with clear boundaries and limitations and only then will you get a real dog that is truly lovable and sensitive.

They say puppies go through stages where they challenge the owner at 6 months, and as adolescents 12-18 months. You can avoid this by dealing with issues as soon as they come up. IMO, dogs only get better with age provided appropriate training and quality care is given.




hotmischief said:


> Ask yourself if you would use this to train your children. On second thoughts, some might benefit from it. :-*


*Never ever compare a human child's education to dog training again*. Dogs are animals, children are human. Big mistake repeated over and over. Makes dog's life miserable.

======================
Want to stop your dog from jumping? Don't allow him in your lap and don't praise him when he's excited and out of control. Reward only when calm. Stop using treats after the initial command is learned. Above all never take treats on walks - promotes guarding behavior when other dogs approach.


Free advice, not meant to hurt YOUR or your dog's feelings. 

All the best,
Julius


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## Aimless1

hotmischief said:


> These devices are quick fix aids. I have seen them cause more damage than good. I certainly wouldn't use one on a sensitive dog like a Vizsla. it. :-*


I'm not entirely sure you understand the correct manner in which to use an electronic collar. If used properly, they reinforce behavior, not punish. I have witnessed leashes misused (hang the dog by the leash), collars misused (too tight), prong collars misused (choke), electronic collars misused (punishment), etc & ad nauseum. Any training tool has the potential for harm especially in novice hands. The less familiar you are with the proper use of a training tool, the more carefully you should proceed. Used properly e-collars are hardly a quick fix, and that my friend, is a fact.


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## Ozkar

Aimless1 said:


> hotmischief said:
> 
> 
> 
> These devices are quick fix aids. I have seen them cause more damage than good. I certainly wouldn't use one on a sensitive dog like a Vizsla. it. :-*
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not entirely sure you understand the correct manner in which to use an electronic collar. If used properly, they reinforce behavior, not punish. I have witnessed leashes misused (hang the dog by the leash), collars misused (too tight), prong collars misused (choke), electronic collars misused (punishment), etc & ad nauseum. Any training tool has the potential for harm especially in novice hands. The less familiar you are with the proper use of a training tool, the more carefully you should proceed. Used properly e-collars are hardly a quick fix, and that my friend, is a fact.
Click to expand...

Following your line of thinking, the same could be said that you don't understand the correct manner to train a dog without an E-Collar too. 

I am happy to spend more time to get what I want ingrained, rather than have to use an additional device. The only reason my dogs have a collar is that the law requires they are tagged and for when I have to be in an area where they are not allowed off lead. Other than that, as soon as I am home, I remove the collars. (Makes it nicer to snuggle up to them on a cold night too...... It was cold last night, so I had them lying against me all night in bed.....heaven!  )


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## Aimless1

Doesn't seem like we frequent the same threads very often Ozkar. Typical that you and I aren't on the same page in the same place at the same time 

Rather than hijack a thread, why not send me a PM with your objections to the use of e-collars and what ever else you're opposed to using for training, or you can start a new thread. Either way I'm happy to discuss this topic. Mind you, I'm strictly a well educated amateur with practical experience, but I'm not a pro trainer.

The e-collar is simply an effective training tool. IMHO better than the use of treats and no worse than any other tool if used properly. Used improperly, you'll have a hard time beating me to pummeling the offender. Either way, I'm always game to learn.


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## zigzag

Well I really opened up the can on this one. When It comes down to it, The Ecollar will be added to the arsenal of training aids along side the Electric Bird launchers, polyurethane CC, Leather pinch collars, Whoa barrels etc...I appreciate and respect all of the above opinions. I welcome more people to come forward, those who never used an Ecollar. Can your dog back another dog on point reliably? Does your dog come to a whistle command at 500yrds 100%/? Have you accomplished any AKC or other field trial events with your dog? I am not at all against those who never used an Ecollar. I would like to Know if there are alot of dogs, exceptional dogs out there that never had an Ecollar on.


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## Aimless1

zigzag, truth be told, my past dogs have achieved all you mentioned and more with minimal use of the e-collar. The e-collar allows us to speed success but does not replace basic training nor basic training techniques.


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## zigzag

hotmischief said:


> These devices are quick fix aids. I have seen them cause more damage than good. I certainly wouldn't use one on a sensitive dog like a Vizsla. Some dogs become terrified of having a collar put on despite having the E collar put on for 2 weeks prior to use. Be sure you don't set your training back with the E collar. Good advise from Texas red, read lots of books and reviews before you get one.
> 
> I am trying to train my pup not to jump up, and although he has been quick to learn other commands he is slow to learn the word OFF - but I will not be using an Ecollar to solve the problem even if he is middle aged before we get there.
> 
> Ask yourself if you would use this to train your children. On second thoughts, some might benefit from it. :-*


One thing I want to add. I would never use an Ecollar for something like the off command. Why? because the dog will almost 100% of the time be within my hand controll. example friends come over dog is greeting everyone and jumps up in excitment, I am standing close as I should be, correction is given. Same with counter tops and chewing kids toys, I am there to give the correction so that kinda of problem does not exsit in my home. It's 500yrds in the bird field.


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## luv2laugh

Hi Zigzag, 

Oso is not very well trained so far, but I know a lot of police dogs, search and rescue dogs and therapy dogs are trained with positive reinforcement techniques, with sometimes a little bit of negative punishment (like time outs thrown in). I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that most don't use negative reinforcement or positive punishment.

Just in case not everyone is familiar with the terms ...

Positive reinforcement = added stimulus to increase future frequency (ie: treats for sitting, added stimulus is something motivating/good and target behavior should be a positive one).

Negative reinforcement = withdrawal of stimulus to increase future frequency (ie: using choke collar, some uses of e-collars, take away PAIN to increase positive behavior)

Positive punishment = added stimulus to decrease future frequency (ie: squirt bottle, shake can, some uses of e-collar, added stimulus is something bad, target behavior is not preferred)

Negative punishment = withdrawal of stimulus to decrease future frequency (ie: time out, taking away something good, target behavior is non preferred)


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## datacan

@ 500 yards long distance charges apply.... does your dog really range that far? Never seen mine go more than 250 yards.
If so, you need a strong signal to stop interference from all the grass blades.

But, my friend's GSP routinely tries to take my V out to the edge of the horizon, he never makes it that far... just stops and waits for the GSP to come back :-\


@ luv2laugh
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gmephotos/1461435194/
You mean this dog? He has positive enforcement written all over his face...Titanium implants


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## zigzag

I may be reaching, 500yrds is about 1/2 mile if my math is good. Rojo is not a barn burner 200yrds he checks in with me


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## datacan

http://www.tritronics.com/content/products/comparison-chart/

First one on the list. There seems to be a shortage, as of late... I guess this is the most popular model out there.
For TT 1/2mile means exactly that...other brands fudge the distance, IMO. My friend has the Dogtra brand and never gets the advertised range, maybe 3/4 on a good day with not even a grass blade in sight. Same goes for SportDog.


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## zigzag

What all the companys seem to be holding back on is the accessory button. Its annoying that 300 bucks doesn't get you an accessory button why? Maybe cuz I can add a launcher without there consent :


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## Ozkar

Aimless1 said:


> Doesn't seem like we frequent the same threads very often Ozkar. Typical that you and I aren't on the same page in the same place at the same time
> 
> Rather than hijack a thread, why not send me a PM with your objections to the use of e-collars and what ever else you're opposed to using for training, or you can start a new thread. Either way I'm happy to discuss this topic. Mind you, I'm strictly a well educated amateur with practical experience, but I'm not a pro trainer.
> 
> The e-collar is simply an effective training tool. IMHO better than the use of treats and no worse than any other tool if used properly. Used improperly, you'll have a hard time beating me to pummeling the offender. Either way, I'm always game to learn.


I mean no offense please!! :-[

The original post asked for opinions................ it is not anything but that??? No need to start another thread. I only comment in these threads when people are asking opinions. If it said, I am going to buy an ecollar and have made up my mind, I generally stay out of them. 
But, sometimes, an alternative viewpoint is helpful in people making a decision EITHER way. I don't condemn those who use them, I just think these outcomes can be achieved without them and am never going to not share that opinion when asked. 

I have always found that regardless of what opinion is expressed in here, that people always allow anothers thoughts to be aired. I hope that isn't about to change???


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## Aimless1

zigzag said:


> I am looking into a E collar purchase. I would like to purchase a Tri Tronics Made in the USA collar. All the people I talk to say that's the wise choice. My budget is 300.00 dollars. I am thinking about getting the classic 70 collar because it has 1mile range and can add a beeper. downside is 6 levels of continues stim, no momentary stim! it does have a tone feature witch is a must. My next choice would be a step down to the sport basic 1/2 mile range. My dog is on the softer side of the sport dog breed, I would say he is a textbook Vizsla does not respond well to hard training a soft method has worked well. I am not purchasing the collar to stop any unwanted behavior. Any help, Ecollar advise, greatly appreciated I have not had any experince with the Ecollar. Books, training methods personal opnions welcome. Thanks again.


Unless I read the original post incorrectly, the OP was looking for opinions as to which e-collar to buy, not whether he should purchase one or not.  And not for opinions as to their use. That's why I suggested that we not hijack his thread. Sorry for the digression zigzag.


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## Mischa

I've said my fair share in other threads about e-collars, and while I reap the benefits of one, I can totally understand and respect Ozkar's view.


I'm really happy with my SportDog sd400. It has a 400 meter/yard (1/4 mile) range. That is 4 football fields, and I have never needed anywhere near that range, and we're constantly in wooded terrain. 

It's got a tone button and 2 stimm buttons. They can be momentary nick and constant, or high/low constant of what ever the dial is set at. 

At $160, it's the lowest price quality collar, but the range is lower than the more expensive models. If your dog ranges out further, then it would be a waste, but if he works close like most V's, this is one to consider.


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## Ozkar

Aimless1 said:


> zigzag said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am looking into a E collar purchase. I would like to purchase a Tri Tronics Made in the USA collar. All the people I talk to say that's the wise choice. My budget is 300.00 dollars. I am thinking about getting the classic 70 collar because it has 1mile range and can add a beeper. downside is 6 levels of continues stim, no momentary stim! it does have a tone feature witch is a must. My next choice would be a step down to the sport basic 1/2 mile range. My dog is on the softer side of the sport dog breed, I would say he is a textbook Vizsla does not respond well to hard training a soft method has worked well. I am not purchasing the collar to stop any unwanted behavior. Any help, Ecollar advise, greatly appreciated I have not had any experince with the Ecollar. Books, training methods personal opnions welcome. Thanks again.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless I read the original post incorrectly, the OP was looking for opinions as to which e-collar to buy, not whether he should purchase one or not.  And not for opinions as to their use. That's why I suggested that we not hijack his thread. Sorry for the digression zigzag.
Click to expand...

Please forgive me....... :-[ :-[ :-[ I got my threads mixed up ...... :-[ :-[

Carry on... I'll nick off into another thread...... ;D


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## trevor1000

I have a Sport Trainer 1225 and it has been great.
I don't train with it but reinforce with it.
Unfortunately he is collar aware but I don't care really.
I did have it on him for weeks before even turning it on.
He is smart and figured out where the correction is coming from.
But, he does have a positive association with his collar and doesn't mind having it on. ( he gets to go outside and also gets to hunt birds)
He behaves very well with the collar on even if I don't ever use it.
%100 recall. hmmm 
My opinion of %100 recall is in ANY situation a dog will come on FIRST recall.
When a high drive dog is locked in on a rabbit running across the road can u recall him first try? ( I care not to try without an e-collar on )
The number one use of his e-collar right now for me is for the protection of my dog.
He is an expensive, loving part of our family that I want to protect at all costs.
If I had to come home from anywhere and tell my family the dog got hit by a car it would not be pleasant.
Just my 2 cents


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## v-john

I haven't read each and every post on this thread. Saw the brief hijack and agree completely with Aimless. As long as the dog understands the collar, then it is just like any other tool that can be used correctly or incorrectly. And yes, I've sat and watched my vizsla girl work a line, at almost 3/4 of a mile on the garmin. 
Just as much damage can be done with a leash or a checkcord. 

Regardless. Back to the OP. Tritronics, if you can find the product before Garmin bought them out.... Love their older products.


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