# Has anyone ever had to give a dog back?



## jjohnson

Hello Vizsla lovers! I've posted about Gus before- and our dealings with fear aggression since he was just a little (10 week old) puppy.

Well, since the birth of our baby in early October, it seems as though Gus is getting progressively worse (this also coincides with him reaching a critical age- 17 months). He is great so far with the baby - he actually loves her and knows her name and will go "find her". But his aggression to strange people and dogs seems to be escalating every day. It's gotten to the point where yesterday my husband asked "would you ever consider giving Gus back to the breeder?" And I'm sad and embarrassed to say, yes, I think I would and I may.

Last weekend I took him to get his annual shots. Thank goodness for muzzels because he would have literally torn the vet's face off. I'm not talking a little growl or snarl, but full attack (he was terrified, shaking, drooling, shedding, etc.). Later that day, when my husband tried to take a bone from him, he snarled and snapped at his face. Then, a chimney repair man came out to the house a few days ago. He wouldn't go in his crate - he was panicking, shaking, salivating, and wouldn't take any treats. I opened the door a crack to tell the guy to wait a minute, and GUs pushed through my legs after the guy, and luckily I grabbed his collar before he got too close. Then, yesterday, our in-laws stopped by with their dog that Gus played with all the time as a puppy, so we figured they'd get along like they have in the past. But NOPE! Gus tried to attack him 3 times. Pulled hair off, but didn't break skin, and had to be kenneled the rest of the time.

We're getting close to our wit's end. We can't spend 6 hours a day training him- we have lives and a small family. The vet suggested we try Prozac, and that is our next step. But we can't ever go on vacation since where would we leave him? And what happens when the baby grows up and wants to have friends over? How long or how far do we let it go before we have to make a heartbreaking decision? We just don't know.

Also, this is beside the point, but we're pretty angry with the breeder. We KNOW this is a genetic problem, and there has been problems with past litters. We paid $1,200 for a dog that was supposed to be show and hunt quality, but he wouldn't be able to do either. He would try to attack judges in the ring, and I don't see him being able to function as hunting dog like this. 

Blah- we are just so frustrated and heartbroken that at the very least, Gus is destined for a life of a lot of time in his kennel or stuck at home when we go places, like to family's house on Thanksgiving. What would you guys do? We love him to death despite his problems...he was our first "baby" after all, and we would be heartbroken without him. But is it fair to him to have to be locked up a lot? And fair to the sweet dogs in shelters that are put down every day that we could provide a good home to?


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## AcadianTornado

Have you considered brining him to a professional for an evaluation and therapy? We had a few issues with our pup at first and we met a master dog trainer who made miracles for us. It's a thought! I was walking our 6 month old V this morning and he went berzerk on this gentleman who was walking towards us. He has never done this! And he's usually extremely socialized, going to daycare (dog trainers) three times per week. My story may not compare to yours, but I would definitely consider consulting a master dog trainer who has a reputable reputation before giving up.


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## threefsh

I would find him another home. Ideally, a place where he can hunt & run free without worrying about strange people or other dogs. It's not worth the risk to your family. What happens when the baby is old enough to get around & tries to grab something the pup has? My sister was bitten in the face by an aggressive dog we had when she was a small child. He had grabbed a plastic bowl that smelled like food & she reached down to try & take it from him. She has a scar on her face to this day. It's a hard choice, but you have to do what is right for your family.


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## hotmischief

jjohnson, my heart goes out to you, you have a terrible dilemma.

You are obviously not taking this decision lightly as you have put a lot of time into trying to resolve Gus's problem. Yes we have a responsibility to our dogs, but we are supposed to enjoy having them and I have to say I don't think I could cope with Gus's behaviour. I also wouldn't want to trust him( as his behaviour is so unpredictable) with my baby.

You said the breeder said he would have Gus back, but what would he do with Gus? What sort of life would he have? My feelings are that I would rather euthanize him than pass him on to a life where he would be condemn to life in a kennel, or passed off as some sort of guard dog if the breeder is unscrupulous.

In the UK, rescue centres that have aggressive dogs that they feel are unsuitable to re homing often find placements for them with the police or other professional organisations. Would this be an option that might suit Gus, giving him a job with a professional handler? 

As much as we all love our dogs, the majority of us are not coping with your situation, and I for one think that if he doesn't show a marked improvement with Prozac, you will have no alternative but to make a very difficult decision.

I do hope the Prozac works. Keep us posted.


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## texasred

Your going to have to do a lot of soul searching and make the decision for yourself. After 17 months of having him I wouldn't be able to send him away unless he put my kids safety at risk, and second he was going to a home that was able to deal with his fear and aggression.
I would give the Prozac the vet suggested a try and also get a DAP product to help calm him. If the products help him I would invest in a large out door kennel. Then any time I had guest/repairman coming over I would put him in the kennel before they arrived.
This last part is going to make me sound like a hard person. Due to the fact that Gus is so fearful of other people, I couldn't see myself giving him back to the breeder if he would spend the rest of his life living in terror. I would either have to find him the correct home where he could have a good quality of life, or put him down. There are vets that will come to your house and do it. You wouldn't want it done at a vets office where he would be scared.


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## WillowyndRanch

I understand your position and as hard as it is, my recommendation is that for whatever the reason, this dog is not working out in your family and sounds most definitely to have become a significant safety issue. I would contact the breeder immediately and return Gus also immediately. If the breeder does not take the dog back, I would contact the local Vizsla rescue to see if they can help. Be advised, once the dog actually bites someone, most rescue organizations CANNOT accept the dog due to liability reasons. 

I have not had to return a dog, but 20+ years ago I did take back a German Wirehaired Pointer that had developed issues. Why is unknown - sometimes it's just bad wiring of a pup, sometimes it's environmental. This pup was out of a litter of 15 and the others had no similar issue - but that doesn't mean he wasn't mis-wired at birth.

We took the dog back at just under a year old. He was a fear biter and very un-predictable. We worked with him for six months and just when you thought you could trust him he'd turn and bite again for no reason whatsoever. As such, we could not place him and could not keep him any longer because it would be a matter of time before he got someone other than us. It was sad, but ultimately we had to euthanize him. We never bred the bitch again. I had kept one of the Pups from her for 14 years who was my personal hunting dog and an absolute angel, so I don't think it was a genetic pass through, but an individual dog problem. 

I'm sorry you have to deal with this problem. It's a very emotionally draining issue. I think you and your husband already know that it is time for Gus to go for the safety of you, your family and for general liability issues. Spending the next dozen years in constant concern of whether your dog is going to bite someone or attack another dog is not reasonable and not fair to either you or the dog.
At this point the decision is just where Gus will go. I don't know what contract you have with the breeder, but ours dictates we get the dog back or approve placement to it's next home. It is the breeder's responsibility and the breeder's decision regarding the ultimate disposition of the dog when it's taken back. It is easy to fault a breeder for whatever decision they make with a return pup, but there are times the hardest decision is the one that needs to be made. 

All the best of luck.
Ken


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## jjohnson

I don't think I could put him down! Just couldn't do it, even though logically it might make sense. The breeder I think would give hima good home- they live in rural Idaho and I don't think there are many strangers around. Gus' mom, who has the same problem, has lived there for 11 years so it must be okay. Still, Gus is used to sleeping in our bed, and being part of our family. Not sure he would have the same life there. 

FYI- we have consulted a nehaviorist, trainers, two vets, tried the DAP, tried one drug (Adovan I think?) and done a moderate amount of counter- conditioning training. the tools we have left are more training, other drugs, muzzels, and kennels...an outdoor kennel may be a good place to start i suppose.


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## jjohnson

And yes- our contract states that the breeder will take him back. He is a nice guy and has stayed in touch and cares about Gus. Sounds similar to the puppy described above- Gus's brothers are fine, although the bredeer said his mom is similar and there have been other issues in the past. He actually mentioned one of the past pups was put down by its owners for biting. Thankfully, Gus' litter was the bitch's last litter. 

My husband is so attached to this dog I don't know if he can do it, but I'm kind of afraid of Gus and the thought of going another 13 years like this is also scary. If i do ever feel he is an immeiate danger to my child though, he will be gone immediately...


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## SteelCityDozer

I second finding a home or place where his bite instinct could be out to use if possible. One of our trainers had a client come bec her dog was aggressive and the dog actually bit off part of the trainers finger. So he took in the dog when the county wanted to put it down and trained it to use this biting habit appropriately. I know it's a long shot to find someone like this but you never know. 

In the end if you need to euthanize no one here will judge you. You've exhausted (or are about to) every other option and no one would ever want your child in harms way.


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## redbirddog

jjohnson,
I have read many of your posts since Gus was a pup. Love is wonderful and solves many problems, but not all. If your breeder will take him back, do so and never ask the breeder whatever happened to Gus again. A responsible breeder will do what is right for the dog. *What is right for the dog.* We may not like it, but tough choices are part of the ethical breeders code. 

We gave up a dog when we were younger and had one small daughter and a new born. We knew it was right but hurt like ****. My posts tend to warn young families away from the Hungarian Pointer, if you noticed.

A healthy and stable Vizsla is a handful for a young family. A psychotic animal has no place in such a family IMO. 

My .02 for what it is worth.

RBD


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## harrigab

I'm with Heather (Hotmischief) on this, I certainly could neither live with or pass on a dog that was constantly aggressive and a cause for worry. I'd exhaust all avenues as i have done in the past with a dog of the same nature and the final straw was when he bit my godson for no reason. We can't save them all :-[


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## luv2laugh

Hi Jjohnson, I don't have a lot of advice on this issue. I just wanted to say that I've read your posts through this time on the forum and can see how much love you have for Gus and how much effort you've exhausted to help him live the happiest life possible. I'm so sorry it has gotten to this point. 

Keep us updated on what you decide to do. 

**One thing, I'm opinionated on though is the *breeder*. If the mother has fear aggression, she never should have been bred in the first place. As kind as the breeder may be and however much he cares for Gus, it was irresponsible to breed his mother and it wasn't _nice_ to give you a sweet puppy with some major issues - especially when you specifically asked for a pup without aggression. 

Wishing you all the best in this!!


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## KB87

My heart goes out to you with your situation with Gus. Although I don't have a solution for you, I do agree with trying the trainer route. However, as pointed out by a few others, you sometimes can't fix all of their problems. It's sad that the breeder found it right to breed your pup's mother despite her aggression issues and that you are now in the situation you are in. You absolutely have to do what is right for you and your family no matter the pain. I don't feel it's fair to kennel your dog when guests visit or to have to live with fear of what could happen with your child.

I wish you the best in your difficult decision but encourage you to follow your heart with this one.


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## pippa31

JJohnson -

I, too, have read your posts about Gus and know how hard you have (and continue to!) worked with him. I have never been in this situation before, so have no advice to give...just letting you know that I am sending you lots of virtual hugs as you work through this decision. :-[


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## jjohnson

Thank you for the input everyone. It is kind of eye-opening to read the responses, I think we just keep giving Gus the benefit of the doubt and kind of keep making excuses for him. I should make it clear that I DONT know if his mother was ever aggressive; I do know she is fearful, and anyone who knows anything about dogs knows that fear can and does lead to aggression. 

Anyway, I've breached the topic again with the husband and he won't even consider doing anything until we try the Prozac and see if that at least helps take the edge off so we can be more successful with the training. We also could hire someone to come out and work with him regularly, but the best behaviorist/trainers around here charge upwards of $100 to $200 per hour, and there's no guarantee it will help! 

Anyhoo, it's worth a try, we'll keep you posted. My head agrees with everyone thatthis is not the best home for him; last night he growled at me when I got near him eating his dog food. He's never done that before


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## redbirddog

JJohnson,
Try a Thundershirt. If you have seen the movie "Temple Grandin" the concept of the Thundershirt makes sense. 


http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2012/01/thundershirt-and-new-years-eve.html

Worth a try.

RBD


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## ljcomm

Unfortunately, we have made the decision that our Blaze has to go. The hard decision is whether to find a home for him or to put him down. Blaze has shown signs of aggression since we adopted him from the breeder at 8 weeks old. He is now a little over 3 years old.

His first signs of aggression were to snarl and nip at anyone who took away his pig ears. He bit my wife's hand with those sharp puppy teeth within the first few weeks. Shortly after, he bit one of my son's friends who attempted to pet him while he slept. Same thing happened to my son a few months after that. At this time we contacted the breeder hoping to give him back, but he didn't entertain the idea. In speaking to Blaze's trainer, he told us he believed Blaze was more of a nervous dog rather than a vicious one. We concurred because overall, when Blaze is alert, he is kind and loving to all members of the family. We decided to keep him knowing we'd have to be vigilant while he was sleeping and eating.

Things worked out well up until this year when he began displaying signs of growing fear to any noises inside and outside our home. He'll bark nonstop at any hour of the night at anything he hears. The sound of a firecracker, no matter how faint and distant, will have him running with his tail between his legs to any hiding space he can find. It's been very sad to see him this way. But most recently, my daughter went to kiss him while he was laying down awake on the couch and he swooshed at her face and gave her a gash underneath her eye that required 7 stitches. I love our Blaze but my family comes first and this incident, along with new growling behavior he's been displaying toward guests as they enter the house, has gotten us to the point we can no longer risk something more serious happening.

It's easy to get caught up in the idea that he is a good dog, because most of the time he is just that. But our kids are 8 year old twins who have their friends constantly coming in and out of our home. My wife and I feel it's only a matter of time that he will inflict more serious injury and it has really broken our hearts to have to come to this decision.

I wish you the best with your situation.


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## redbirddog

> ...But most recently, my daughter went to kiss him while he was laying down awake on the couch and he swooshed at her face and gave her a gash underneath her eye that required 7 stitches. I love our Blaze but my family comes first and this incident, along with new growling behavior he's been displaying toward guests as they enter the house, has gotten us to the point we can no longer risk something more serious happening.


Blaze's story is too familiar to young families. Thanks for sharing your story.

No one wants to hear of a dog hurting their or any child. I find the response of the breeder unacceptable on many levels.

Your situation could be used for your local Vizsla club. Both with you as being someone young families could talk to,
_http://redbirddog.blogspot.com/2011/05/vizsla-right-dog-for-you.html_[/color] and,


> At this time we contacted the breeder hoping to give him back, but he didn't entertain the idea


how the breeder did not want to talk about returning the dog. Maybe the screening process could have been tougher, but that is just a suspicion. 

I hope you contact your local Vizsla Rescue and don't try and re-home yourself. Let the Rescue folks help. Re-homing yourself with a dog like Blaze could cause him to bounce from home to home and then to a one way trip to a shelter.

Sad.

RBD


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## ljcomm

RBD, there is a local vizsla club and I intend to contact them tomorrow... hopefully they'll offer some guidance. I'd much prefer to have him in an adult setting with loving and experienced people. It breaks our hearts to think we may have to put him down. The breader came highly recommended and his dogs were even featured on animal planet. We never thought of asking him "what if". I suppose no matter how much research one does, anything can happen.


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## redbirddog

> We never thought of asking him "what if".


A very important question when talking to a breeder. Of course if you get a dog over the internet and have the dog shipped to you, forget about an
option of returning a dog. 

Our Bailey was a "rehome" through the breeder when he was 4 months old. He didn't fit with the first family.

Always ask "what if..."

Good luck tomorrow. Hope they can give you good advice.

RBD


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## BlueandMac

ljcomm - what a heart wrenching decision for you and your family! I hope the Vizsla club rescue can help you and Blaze - and you can find peace and the strength in doing whatever is best for Blaze. It is so sad for all.


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## ljcomm

Thank you for your thoughts BlueandMac... he is constantly on our minds and we're probably prolonging the inevitable. We had him on Prozac for 3 days but didn't like how it surpressed his personality. We took him off 2 days ago and now he sleeps most of the day, though he seems more nervous than ever. He's is withdrawn and barks up a storm anytime one of us walks into a room he's in... even when someone else is with him - which is most of the time. He's been showing way too many fear behavior patterns. We will be bringing him to the vet to have him checked out. We don't want to leave any stones unturned. I suppose we're holding out for hope.


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## SkyyMax

JJohnson and ljcomm - my heart goes out to you!

I am so sorry you are facing with such a hard decision - but the safety of your family has to come first.
I admire you for taking so many steps to see if you can help the dogs and wish you all the best.

Sometimes you _can't_ fix the behavior, no matter what you do. Our next door neighbor has a small mix breed dog about 10 years old. He was always aggressive and with time he only got worse.
She can no longer take him out for a walk (he attacks people and dogs). He is on Prozac, it makes him very sleepy (and less dangerous).

Wishing you and your families the very best-


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## jjohnson

So sorry to hear about Blaze. Sounds similar unfortunately. It's weird how these dogs can get so neurotic. I honestly feel like it is a doggy-mental illness if such things exist?

Interesting to hear about the prozac. At this point we are probaby 
willing to have a sleepy-but more manageable dog. It may beat the alernative. If he did go to a new home, it would be super traumatic for him. I've never seen a dog more unable to cope with new situations and people - I imagine he would hide in his crate for days or weeks and growl at anybody who approached him. Something that also breaks my heart when thinking about the possibility of sending him back  But this reminds me- I need to call the vet today about that Prozac.


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## city_dog

We took in a re-homed V last February - he was nearly 3 at the time and was not properly socialized. He took to my hubby and I right away - very affectionate, eager to please, smart as a whip (he had never been properly house trained or lived in a house - he was a hunting dog that didn't want to hunt !!) The only problem was that he would run and hide any time the children were around. At the time, they were 8, 7 and 5 - old enough to know how to behave around a dog.
I tried everything - dog behaviourists, Thunder Shirts, having the boys hand feed him, etc. Nothing helped. after months of trying, we made the tough decision to call the breeder that we got him from and tell them that it wasn't working out. The day I took him back was the hardest thing I've ever done. But it helped that they told me he was going to live with their friend that had no children and acres of property for him to run on.
While talking to them, they told me they had a puppy returned to them that morning because the family didn't realize how much work they truly are - it kept eating their son's toys - all behaviour to be expected from a 13 week old puppy.

Well - I didn't leave empty-handed. My little Sammy came home with me and she's been wonderful (if not exasperating) ever since. 

I'm very sorry that you both are having to make this difficult decision. I still wonder about him and whether he is happier where he is now...


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## Lincolns Parents

ljcomm: We are so sorry your faced with this, what a difficult choice to make. I agree with you in that your kids come first. Hopefully a rescue is willing to help you out.

This sounds all to familiar as well, Lincoln has a huge fear aggression problem. We have to put him in his kennel ANYTIME someone new comes over. He freaks out barking, growling, etc. Not only is he scared but our house guests are terrified of him! He hasn't bit any guests yet, but we cant take any chances! We dont trust him around strangers!

We have homeowners ins that covers dog related issues but dont want it to come to that at all! 

This isnt the first time ive read about fearful Vizslas, unfortunately it seems all to common. It would be interesting to do a poll to see just how many of us are dealing with this issue.


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## lyra

So sorry to hear of your problems. I can understand how heat breaking your situations are.

It does really concern me though that you have an unpredictable dog and a baby. When thinking of your options remember that if Gus does attack your baby (and that is a possibility with any dog let alone an unstable one, however much they get on) then Gus will have to be put down and you will have the guilt to live with for a long time. If you go for a re-homing then you at least know that Gus has the possibility of a finding an environment that is less challenging to his problems. You clearly love your dog (and of course your baby) but please don't let that love blind you to the potential danger he currently represents.

My thoughts are with you.


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## newenglandfarm

ljcomm said:


> Unfortunately, we have made the decision that our Blaze has to go. The hard decision is whether to find a home for him or to put him down. Blaze has shown signs of aggression since we adopted him from the breeder at 8 weeks old. He is now a little over 3 years old.
> 
> His first signs of aggression were to snarl and nip at anyone who took away his pig ears. He bit my wife's hand with those sharp puppy teeth within the first few weeks. Shortly after, he bit one of my son's friends who attempted to pet him while he slept. Same thing happened to my son a few months after that. At this time we contacted the breeder hoping to give him back, but he didn't entertain the idea. In speaking to Blaze's trainer, he told us he believed Blaze was more of a nervous dog rather than a vicious one. We concurred because overall, when Blaze is alert, he is kind and loving to all members of the family. We decided to keep him knowing we'd have to be vigilant while he was sleeping and eating.
> 
> Things worked out well up until this year when he began displaying signs of growing fear to any noises inside and outside our home. He'll bark nonstop at any hour of the night at anything he hears. The sound of a firecracker, no matter how faint and distant, will have him running with his tail between his legs to any hiding space he can find. It's been very sad to see him this way. But most recently, my daughter went to kiss him while he was laying down awake on the couch and he swooshed at her face and gave her a gash underneath her eye that required 7 stitches. I love our Blaze but my family comes first and this incident, along with new growling behavior he's been displaying toward guests as they enter the house, has gotten us to the point we can no longer risk something more serious happening.
> 
> It's easy to get caught up in the idea that he is a good dog, because most of the time he is just that. But our kids are 8 year old twins who have their friends constantly coming in and out of our home. My wife and I feel it's only a matter of time that he will inflict more serious injury and it has really broken our hearts to have to come to this decision.
> 
> I wish you the best with your situation.


 I just wanted to thank you for sharing that story, I'm in a similar stituation ( but I don't have kids) it sounds odd but I was relived it wasn't just us. X x


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## jjohnson

Just saw this recent post and thought I'd give a quick update on Gus since today is his 2nd birthday!

Two years down, and we still have him and he hasn't bitten anybody! Success  So far he's shown no aggression torward the baby, only once in a while to anybody who gets near him when he has a tasty treat or bone. So that can be pretty easily solved; once the baby starts crawling he will be moved to a room to eat by himself and just won't get special bones. 

So far the baby has been taking an interest in touching him, which I supervise, and he doesn't seem to mind any more than if I was touching him. He just still tries to lick her incessently (her little hands must taste good). So I think as of right now, with just our baby, he wouldn't hurt her on purpose any more than he would hurt us. 

Anytime someone comes in the house, he just goes in his crate or outside, and he seems okay with this. He actually seems to have gotten better when we have people over...my sister in law and parents in law have babys-sat on a couple different occasions and he has been fine with them! Yay! (It only took probably 30 visits to reach this point).

He still absolutely cannot be around any other dogs or children. Also, he admittedly is getting much less exercise because I cannot take him for walks or runs alone. When it is just me and the baby he becomes super fearful and/or protective and he will literally stop in his tracks on walks if he sees, for example, a child, and I have to try to drag him home (maybe I should put him in the stroller next to the baby?). So taking him out of the house, ever, is incredibly difficult. However, as long as he is at home with us, he is doing better. So Long story short: we are still managing okay!

Happy birthday Gus!

(PS- anyone else have V's that started to get a white muzzel before their second birthday???)


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## adrino

That's great news jjohnson! :

I guess it's a long process for him to accept these different situations but its good he hasn't gotten worse. 

Happy Birthday to Gus :-*


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## 00tjwrangler

When I got my v 3yrs ago use to go see everybody and lick and be happy but the older she got the more protective she has got and when my wife takes the dogs somewhere and a guy comes near she will start acting up and won't let the guy near. I have seen her do it to family members with me just walking up to talk start growling and showing teeth I have always said she is be protective but its getting more more. She will get in between and won't let the person near


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## huntvizsla

Since I am a newby to this forum and do not know the back story - have you had this dog tested for thyroid issues? or is Lymes indemic in your area?

I had similar problems with a now-5-year old male, and what it came down to was he felt poorly, which led to defensive behaviour. Hair loss/brittleness is one common sign. 

Hoping for the best for you AND dog.........


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